April 4, 2025 • 47 mins
Does what goes around, really come back around? Do you reap what you sow? My guest Mordy Levine, who along with his coauthor, Lama Lhanang Rinpoche, recently released the book The Beginner’s Guide to Karma: How to Live with Less Negativity and More Peace. In this episode Mordy explains the role that the universal law of cause and effect, or karma, plays in our lives and how to use this understanding to create a positive path forward.
“Learning about karma will help us understand why we are experiencing this contentiousness so broadly and deeply,” write Rinpoche and Levine. “But more important, understanding karma will allow us reduce anger and division among ourselves, our community, our country, and the world.”
Lama Lhanang Rinpoche and Mordy Levine are the authors of The Beginner’s Guide to Karma. Lama Lhanang Rinpoche was born in the Amdo region of historic Tibet and received a traditional monastic education and later studied under several respected Tibetan lamas. Today, he teaches Vajrayana Buddhism at the Jigme Lingpa Center in San Diego, California. Mordy Levine is an entrepreneur, meditation teacher, and the president of the Jigme Lingpa Center. He also created the Meditation Pro Series, a meditation program designed to alleviate chronic health issues.
In this episode, Mordy discusses:
- The definition of karma
- What karma is and what it isn’t
- The three consequences
- Looking at motivation
- The connection between action and thought
- Meditation as a tool for awareness
- Escaping our own prisons
- What led him to practice Buddhism
- Managing frustration
- Heavy and light karma
- Sociopathy and psychopathy
- Buddha nature
- What care about karma?
The Jigme Lingpa Center website
Mordy’s website
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Wendy (00:02):
You're listening to Lucid Cafe. I'm your host, Wendy
Halley. Thanks for joining mefor another episode of Lucid
(00:33):
Cafe, a podcast exploringconsciousness and healing and
the complexities of being human.So today's episode is all about
karma, a subject that has alwaysconfused me and my confusion is
on full display in thisconversation. I spoke with Mordy
(00:54):
Levine who along with his coauthor, Lama Lhanang Rinpoche,
recently released the book, thebeginner's guide to karma, how
to live with less negativity andmore peace.
So when New World Libraryreached out and asked if I'd be
up for chatting with Morty, Iwas like, hell yeah. Maybe I'll
(01:16):
finally get some insight intothis word that a lot of people
use to describe a lot ofdifferent things. Mordy was very
patient with me and my manyobnoxious questions. I guess I
gave him lots of opportunitiesto demonstrate his decades of
Buddhist practice. How nice ofme.
(01:41):
In our conversation, Mordyexplains the role that the
universal law of cause andeffect or karma plays in our
lives and how to use thisunderstanding to create a more
positive path forward. LamaLhanang Rinpoche, who sadly
wasn't able to join us the daywe spoke, was born in the Amdo
region of historic Tibet andreceived a traditional monastic
(02:05):
education and later studiedunder several Tibetan lamas.
Today, he teaches VajrayanaBuddhism in San Diego,
California. Mordy Levine is anentrepreneur, meditation
teacher, and the president ofthe Jigme Lingpa Center in San
Diego. He also created theMeditation Pro Series, a
(02:25):
meditation program designed toalleviate chronic health issues.
So please enjoy my conversationwith Mordy Levine. Mordy, thank
you so much for joining me.
Mordy (02:40):
Happy to be here. Thank you.
Wendy (02:42):
Well, you'll have to excuse my ignorance on this
topic. I am truly a heathen. I'muncivilized, unenlightened. I I
love the definition of heathen,and it definitely fits for me.
So you'll have to just excuse myignorance, but I'm curious about
the topic, which so when theopportunity came up to talk with
(03:05):
you about this new book you'vejust released, I was psyched
because I thought, well, maybe Ican finally understand karma.
So let me just say that you andyour co author wrote the book,
The Beginner's Guide to Karma,How to Live with Less Negativity
and More Peace. So why don't westart with the real basics? How
(03:30):
do you define karma?
Mordy (03:33):
Well, it's not so much how I define it. I've had good
teachers, so I'll tell you howthey define it.
Wendy (03:38):
Fair enough.
Mordy (03:39):
So the definition of karma literally means action,
and it applies to action ofthought, action of speech, and
actual physical action. And thehistory of karma, or that word,
goes back three thousand years.If you wanna go back ten,
twenty, fifty thousand years,people did believe in something
like that, they just didn't havea name for it. They felt like if
(04:01):
you did things right, somethinggood would happen, something
wrong. You know, it's prettybasic stuff.
But that and that's true in allreligions. But the history of
karma goes back over threethousand years. It was written
about in the Upanishads, whichpredates Hinduism. The concept
is currently taught in many waysin Eastern religions. And
Buddha, who came along about twothousand six hundred years ago,
(04:22):
he brought to the table a numberof other additional concepts.
One is that this mechanisticlinear sense that we all think
of karma is not true. It's not asimple linear cause. It's far
more sophisticated. He alsotaught that the intention and
motivation is really the coreand basis of karma. So if I'm
(04:44):
gonna write a check to thecharity down the street for
$100, you know why?
Because my neighbor wrote acheck for 90 and I want people
to see that I put in 100. Orthen that's one intention or
motivation. Or I can write acheck for a hundred dollars
because you know what? Thosekids, they really need the
school supplies and the food andwhat have you. So it's based
(05:05):
upon the core of it is basedupon motivation or intention.
He also showed that we can wehave choice. We had nothing's
predetermined. We can change ournegative karma, so there's no
sense of predeterminism. Andthen finally, it plays a primary
role for those of us thatbelieve in rebirth in the kind
of life you will have and bereborn into because what we
(05:30):
believe as Buddhists is is well,everyone knows that you don't
take your body, your money, yourhouse, your dogs, your you don't
take anything with you. But froma Buddhist perspective, what you
do take with you is your karma.
Wendy (05:42):
Okay.
Mordy (05:42):
So that's the in a nutshell, what the Buddha
brought to the table.
Wendy (05:46):
So thank you for that. It still, to me, has this sort of
and maybe it's because I'm alittle thick. A lot thick. It
has a a I guess the nuance part.Because when people reference
karma to me, it's a verysimplistic form of karma, like
(06:07):
you were referencing. And and itusually the flavor of it
involves punishment of somesort. Like, I've heard people
say things actually, a lot ofpeople say things like, well, I
wanna do good in this lifetimeso that I'm not reborn as a what
they would consider a lowerspecies of animal or insect or
(06:29):
something like that. So theythey look at it like that, or
they're saying things like, thisis my last lifetime. I am fixing
everything in this lifetime. IfI had a dime for every time
somebody said that to me!
Mordy (06:40):
Mhmm. Sure.
Wendy (06:42):
I am done. No more of this human stuff. I am done with
this, which I get because it'sSure. Life on planet Earth is
not always easy.
But they have this sort of ideathat if they can get it right
this time, that they won't haveto come back. But there's always
this thread of karma goingthrough their comments, or that
(07:04):
I'm gonna pay in some way, orthis person will pay in some way
if they do harm to someone else.So those are typically the
things that I hear people talkabout. If you wanna comment on
any of that, that would
Mordy (07:18):
be great. Let's just go with all that. I'm good with
that. No. I'm I'm joking.
So there are basically threeconsequences to any action.
Remember, action is thought,speech, and actual actions.
There are actual actions. Thereare three consequences. One is
if I am if I shoot you, I ammore likely to shoot again.
(07:40):
And I am more likely to be shot,and I'm more likely to be in an
environment of shooting. If I'mgenerous, I'm more likely to be
generous again, developing ahabit. Habits are synonymous
with karma. I'm more likely forsomeone to be generous with me,
and I'm more likely to be in anenvironment of generosity.
That's kinda how theconsequences of karma are.
Wendy (07:59):
Okay.
Mordy (08:00):
I listed three basic consequences. More likely to do
it again. It's gonna happen backto me and or being in an
environment. And you could seeit, frankly, unfortunately, with
domestic abuse. Father hurts theson, the child, the mother,
whatever it is.
That kid grows up. Guess what?Unless he breaks that karma,
(08:21):
breaks out of that habit, it'sgonna happen again and again and
again. So bad example, but it'sit's it's truth. So let's talk a
little bit about some of thereferencing that you've
received.
And is it possible to I'm gonnatake care of all my karma now.
I'm gonna reword rephrase whatyou said so I don't have to come
back again. And and, you know,it's kinda like a Groundhog's
(08:42):
Day situation. And some lineagesof Buddhism believe that you can
become enlightened in thislifetime and therefore can go to
nirvana or come back and helpothers if you choose, etcetera,
etcetera. But that takes a lotof work.
We can talk about that, but I'mnot sure how helpful or
(09:04):
practical that might be in thisshort conversation. But sure.
Wendy (09:08):
Fair enough.
Mordy (09:09):
Yeah. So. And in essence, all of our habits can be
categorized very simply eitheras self centered versus selfish.
So if it's self if ourmotivation is self centered,
that's negative karma. So if Iwanna donate that money that I
mentioned earlier because I'mgonna wanna look better in the
(09:29):
eyes of other people, that's aself centered motivation, that's
supporting my ego, then that'snegative karma.
And if it's rich, I really wannatake care of those kids. That's
positive karma. That's onecategorization. Another
categorization is if I you know,we all have opinions and views
about ourselves, about others,about situations. The stronger
(09:52):
sense that my opinion is right.
Because the more stories we tellourselves over and over again,
you know, I'm a greatbusinessman. I'm a great
businessman. I'm a greatbusinessman. I'm this. I'm that.
I'm a great father. I'm that.That solidifies those thoughts
and that strengthens our senseof self, creates a sense of
permanency. Any action that doesthat creates negative karma, and
(10:16):
any thought, speech, or actionthat is very open minded creates
positive karma. So it's anotherway of looking at it.
That Donald Trump, he's gonna bea horrible president. I just
know I did that. I was like,yeah. Okay. So that sense that
kind of thing is negative karma.
And the possibility that hemight do positive things is is
(10:37):
positive karma. We just don'tknow. Open mindedness versus
Wendy (10:42):
So even thinking about something, it's not necessarily
always action.
Mordy (10:47):
Absolutely. So your thoughts, not mine, just yours,
by the way, create karma. So andif your thoughts are self
serving, selfish, solidifying,that's negative karma. And if
they're more open minded,etcetera, that's positive karma.
Wendy (11:09):
Okay.
Mordy (11:10):
And think about it. I mean, the NIH, I think, I've
said ten, twenty years ago, theydid some kind of study back in
the day. Says that we think80,000 thoughts in a twenty four
hour period. That's interesting.Okay.
I didn't know it was that manythoughts. You include dreaming.
You included it. Got it. But,you know, what's more
interesting is 85 to 9090% ofthose thoughts are the same from
day to day.
Not a lot of new creativethoughts coming in. That's kind
(11:34):
of a reflection of karma. We'rejust thinking the same thing,
same stories over and overagain.
Wendy (11:38):
Absolutely. Yeah. Alright. So I'd like to dive
into that a little bit deeperhere. So I I wanna reference a
quote from your book.
Karma is referred to as a seedthat gestates in the mind. And
then you describe theconsequences of actions taken to
illustrate this point. Can youdescribe how you see the
(12:00):
connection between the mind andaction and behavior?
Mordy (12:05):
Everything starts with thoughts. The mind leads the
way. I didn't say that. That'swhat the Buddha said. I just
repeated it a little bitdifferently.
The mind leads the way. So wethink, no pun intended, that,
oh, he hit me. I just hit himright back. It's a trigger. In
reality, there's if you break itdown very, very slowly, there is
(12:28):
a thought that takes place thereand you have the option if we
meditate or do things of thatnature, we have the option to
recognize the thought, be awareof it, and then choose whether
to do something about it or not.
And then eventually, if we areaware and have the courage and
(12:50):
desire, we can retrain our mindnot to have that negative
thought. Like, oh, that jerk, hepunched me. I'm gonna punch.
They think things things can bethought of differently.
Wendy (13:00):
Hold the phone. Yeah. Okay. So that's actually the the
piece that I really would liketo talk more about is you use
the phrase, if you're aware. Andso to me, triggers and habits
reside in the realm of theunconscious.
They're so habitual thattypically they're out of our
awareness. And I I'm fond ofsaying that I think humans are
(13:24):
95 to 99% unconscious when we'reawake, that we're just creatures
of habit, thinking and believingand reacting and behaving in the
same ways over and over again.
Mordy (13:35):
So And that's synonymous with we are creatures of our own
karma.
Wendy (13:40):
Okay.
Mordy (13:42):
Karma and habits are synonymous, those two words.
Wendy (13:45):
Okay. That's helpful to know. And I don't think most
people make the connection thattheir reactions are the result
of a habit or a pattern thatexists in their unconscious.
They're just thinking it's novelor that it's justified or it's
reasonable that they're notseeing that, oh, these these
beliefs that I have that likelygot set in stone when I was very
(14:08):
young are actually having thisripple effect later in my life.
And why do I keep finding myselfin this kind of relationship or
in this kind of work situationor in extreme cases getting
arrested over and over again forassault or whatever the case
Mordy (14:26):
may be. Absolutely. You're dead right on. Totally.
Exactly.
People are not aware. And theysay yeah. I mean, there's a
pattern. There's an expressionin Yiddish, which I'm gonna give
you to in English, which is ifnine out of 10 people tell you
you smell like fish, you smelllike fish. So here, you know,
when you create a pattern, butwe don't see the pattern.
Wendy (14:46):
Right.
Mordy (14:47):
Or we excuse it or we justify it or it's someone else
that creates this problem, notme.
Wendy (14:53):
Therein lies the dilemma to me, and that that's why I
love the word lucid so much.It's the name of my wellness
center, Lucid Path Wellness, andmy podcast is Lucid Cafe. The
idea of being lucid, to beaware, not just when you're
dreaming, like lucid dreaming,but to be lucid while you're
awake.
Mordy (15:13):
Mhmm.
Wendy (15:14):
How does one become aware of shit that they're not aware
of? If it's your perspective.
Mordy (15:21):
Sure. So I I I'm highly biased. Let's put that out
there.
Wendy (15:25):
Right.
Mordy (15:25):
Which is I believe pretty much the only way you can do
that is through meditation. Nowwhat I will say is that
meditation does not just meansitting somewhere cross legged,
eyes closed, fingers inposition, and and thinking all
the time or not thinking.Meditation can also be swimming.
Meditation can be gardening.Meditation can be any act where
(15:46):
your mind is focused.
And if it's not focused, thenyou bring it back into focus. So
it's just a way to retrain themind. And so meditation is not
playing tennis and, you know,and and your mind's all over
scattered. But it could beplaying tennis if you're just
totally focused on what you'redoing at that moment. And when
you are not focused, you bringit back into focus.
(16:08):
So by using some form ofmeditation, we could probably
list dozens, if not hundreds, ofof ways to retrain the mind
through that type of mentality.Then little by little, you
become aware of where yourthoughts are. And then you can
become aware that you actuallyhave a choice in how you think
(16:29):
and how you speak and how youact. So when I talk to people,
oh, that's my personality.Meaning, it's set and it's
fixed.
Wendy (16:37):
Right.
Mordy (16:38):
That's a reflection of calcification or concretization,
and therefore, that's where yougo down that road and that's
negative karma.
Wendy (16:46):
Well, and that's a belief in and of itself. It's just who
I am.
Mordy (16:50):
Yeah. It's just who I am. It's just how I am. Yeah.
Wendy (16:53):
So it's like I wouldn't expect anything different from
myself. Yeah. So there you go.You just have to kinda deal with
the fact that I get angry a lot.Yeah.
Or it's my parents' fault. Theytreated me like this, so now I'm
treating you like this.
Mordy (17:08):
Yeah. That's why I am who I am.
Wendy (17:09):
Deal with it. But I guess if you're wanting to be better
because, I mean, to me, healingis not an easy road because it's
like having to look in not justa regular mirror, it's a
magnifying mirror. So you cansee every flaw, every blackhead,
every and then it's like, how doI accept that about myself?
(17:31):
These blemishes in my psychethat are not serving me and not
serving others maybe. That's areally tough pill for a lot of
us to swallow is that idea thatit's easier to blame an external
source.
Right? It's harder to kinda lookat yourself in that way and say,
oh, I have some faulty thoughtsor faulty beliefs that are not
(17:54):
serving me.
Mordy (17:55):
Takes an incredible amount of courage to do it. You
have two choices. We can liveunder illusion, which what we do
most of the time, or we can livein lucidity. Got that. I got
that word in there for you.
Wendy (18:08):
Thank you very much. I appreciate that.
Mordy (18:09):
Yeah. My problem. So and I'm I'm gonna use different
words this time. We can live inour own prison of our own making
or we can be free. You know,people come to Buddhism or a lot
of religions because they wannabe happy.
I'm not quite sure what thatword means. I know what the word
free means and so we can bringthem to a certain sense of
(18:30):
freedom. Which could include joyand moments of happiness. But
Wendy (18:34):
But those are fleeting. Those
Mordy (18:36):
Those are fleeting. Right? Because Lama Lanang, my
coauthor, says, when the food isgood and the sun is shining,
everyone is a good Buddhistpractitioner.
Wendy (18:47):
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, would you mind I don't know how
comfortable you feel abouttalking about your own journey,
but your journey to Buddhism andyour process of hopefully
becoming more mindful.
Mordy (19:03):
Mhmm. Well, was born enlightened, so I'm joking. I
don't see no
Wendy (19:09):
Oh, you said enlightened. Was
Mordy (19:11):
like I was born enlightened. Was trying to what
Wendy (19:13):
city is that? I just Right. Right.
Mordy (19:15):
Right. So, no, I was born in a Well,
Wendy (19:17):
good for you. That's awesome. Yeah.
Mordy (19:19):
Yeah. Right.
Wendy (19:22):
Nothing to see here, folks. I'm done.
Mordy (19:24):
Right. So yeah. So I well, I'll I'll make it a so I'm
66 years old, so it's a verylong story. I'm gonna try to get
it down into, let's say, one ortwo minutes, which is in
graduate school at University ofChicago Business School. I was a
very unhappy person.
I didn't know I had been unhappymy whole life. And I got invited
to take a free Japanese karateclass. It's very traditional.
(19:48):
And I'm from Brooklyn. Was like,yeah, yeah, it's not gonna be a
problem for me.
And it was brutal. I was tenminutes into it and I hated
every minute. I said, I'm nevercoming back. I can't believe I
did this. But what I noticedwhen I was done was that my mind
was, as you would say, lucid,clear, joyful.
And not just because I didexercise. I'd always done
(20:09):
exercise, but I never felt thatway before. And I came back two
days later, and then I keptpracticing for the essentially
the last, whatever, thirty,forty years. So that was my
opening into Zen Buddhism.
Wendy (20:22):
If I can just interject a question real quick. Yep. What
was it about practicing martialarts that created that
clearness, that clarity?
Mordy (20:31):
If you're not in the moment, you're gonna get hit,
and you're gonna get hurt.
Wendy (20:35):
Yeah. There's also a degree of discipline too that
you're
Mordy (20:39):
so focused
Wendy (20:41):
on. Because as a former martial artist
Mordy (20:44):
Okay.
Wendy (20:44):
It is kind of life changing in that way to become
aware of your body becauseyou're moving it in ways that
are not natural always. Theydon't feel natural. And so it's
like having to coordinate all ofthese physical aspects and then
also try not to get your asskicked. At the same time, it
(21:04):
requires a great deal of focus.And so, yeah, you have to be
really present.
And then also to conditionyourself in order to be a good
fighter.
Mordy (21:14):
Yeah. Well well described. So there was
meditation before and afterclass, you had to pay attention.
If you didn't pay attention, youwould get hurt. You had to pay
attention so you can try to dothe forms or the Kumite or the
fighting well.
You had to pay attention. Andthe moment you weren't, you pay
a price. You had the likelihoodof paying a price. So that is
(21:35):
kind of what opened the door forme. And when you're paying
attention or everyone's gonnaquote my lama my coauthor, Lama
Hanang, the past is history.
The future is mystery. Thepresent moment is a gift. So I
would learn I learned. I'm stilllearning that the present moment
being in the present moment,you're in the present moment.
You're not thinking about, woeis me.
I can't believe that happened tome yesterday or tomorrow or this
(21:57):
is what's coming up. So the moreyou do that, the more you dip
yourself into that world, themore likely you are to stay in
that world. And and to get backto your original question, it's
very hard. It's very hard. Istill struggle with it today.
Everyone struggles with it untilyou're struggling with it less
and less, meaning to choose tobe in the present moment, to
choose to pay attention, and tonot be under an illusion that,
(22:20):
oh, that's because someone elsedid this and said that and blame
some other thing outside ofourselves.
Wendy (22:25):
So what did you do when you would bump up against maybe
frustration? Because the theprocess is not immediate. You
don't immediately arrive at thatdeeply mindful place. You have
to work towards it. Right?
Mordy (22:37):
I mean Mhmm.
Wendy (22:38):
But not every day is an easy day to do that.
Mordy (22:41):
To get back to you to get back to your question, I'm
keeping looking over at my dog.That's why I wanna make sure
he's behaving, which he's not.But to answer your question a
few different ways, one is it'sa little bit like playing golf.
People go out there play golf,they play horribly, and then
somewhere after three or fourhours they have one great shot
(23:02):
and that great shot them backthe next week. So this is a
little bit similar to that,which is life is difficult, our
minds are out of control, butthen you kind of have a little
bit of moment of clarity or alittle bit of silence or clarity
during meditation or you see howit impacts some other part of
(23:25):
your day and you realize, ah,I'm gonna keep doing more of
this.
It's a good thing.
Wendy (23:30):
You have to have a degree of motivation.
Mordy (23:33):
Yes. Absolutely.
Wendy (23:35):
Or maybe a high degree.
Mordy (23:37):
Well, different degrees, certainly, you know, but some
people choose not to do martialarts. They choose to do tea
ceremony or flower arrangementor swimming or whatever. And
some people practice martialarts three hours a day for
months and years. Other peoplejust go swimming twice a week.
So different degrees ofmotivation, different degrees of
(23:58):
we'll call it I don't wanna usethe word success, progress.
Wendy (24:02):
So then are you recommending that folks try to
find a practice that resonateswith them and maybe fills them
with a bit of excitement, evenknowing that it could be
challenging at times, butbecause of that excitement,
they're more likely to stick toit?
Mordy (24:19):
Absolutely. So, you know, there's a whole comfort zone
theory, which is you stay inyour comfort zone and you just
you're like the frog in thefrying pan. You're just gonna
wither away. You go too faroutside of your comfort zone,
and you're in panic mode. Youdon't really learn anything.
So you have to go outside yourcomfort zone a little bit in
order to learn something, butbut you have to pick something
that you like or a teacher thatis motivating. You don't wanna
(24:42):
just go to a some martial artsclass with someone's brutal or
they're not motivating you orthey don't put a smile on your
face.
Wendy (24:49):
Someone with bad karma.
Mordy (24:51):
That right. Exactly. That's exactly right. So they
have to talk the talk and walkthe walk. And and, you know,
when you come out of a a classon like I said, it could be
anything or I keep referring toswimming, could be gardening or
you don't even have to go to aclass.
But something's gotta put alittle bit of smile on your face
and want you to to come back sothat, you know, that that's how
(25:13):
you know that you found theright when I was teaching
martial arts, people would say,oh, should my son or daughter do
judo or should they do karate?It's like, it doesn't really
matter. Find the right teacher.
Wendy (25:23):
Or the right art too.
Mordy (25:24):
Or the right art. Or the right art. Absolutely.
Absolutely. The right people.
Wendy (25:30):
Okay. That's super helpful. How about I thought
this was interesting in yourbook. Two types of karma, heavy
and light. Can you talk a bitabout the differentiation
between those two types ofkarma?
Mordy (25:46):
Sure. So there's thoughts which can lead to speech or lead
to action. If I'm sitting on mysofa or sitting on my couch and
I'm watching some politician onTV and I'm going, I could kill
that guy or gal. Okay. That'sclearly not positive karma.
It's negative karma. But there'sa big difference between that
and me going and getting a gun,driving over to DC. Sound
(26:09):
familiar to anyone? And and andand trying to shoot someone,
that is more of a completeaction. Heavier versus light as
well.
You know, there's a fly in theroom, and I'm gonna go swat it.
Clearly not positive karma, butit's doesn't compare to me
running someone overintentionally with my car.
Wendy (26:31):
Understood. Okay. So heavy karma is more about
consequences that have direeffects?
Mordy (26:39):
Heavy karma, yeah, are more about consequences related
to the actions. And thoseactions, you have to look at
your the motivation and thedegree of action. For example,
humans are not do not have thesame killing a human is
different than killing a a fly.Harming one's parent is a lot
(27:01):
heavier than harming someoneelse. Harming your spiritual
teacher is a lot heavier thanharming someone else.
Speech has doesn't have as muchharm as action itself. So
thinking something is differentthan speaking it is different
something than than actuallydoing something about it.
Wendy (27:18):
Okay. So I'll just add this to my ignorant question
list. But I remember going tosome workshop at I can't
remember where it was. Anyway, Iremember hearing someone talk
about not wanting to harm anycreature.
Mordy (27:38):
Mhmm.
Wendy (27:38):
They didn't like stepping on ants. Mhmm. Just zero harm,
not wanting to eat any animalprotein because of karma. They
were saying, like So is that thesuggestion? Is that people
should be living like that, oris that more an extreme?
Mordy (27:58):
It's definitely extreme, and we would not necessarily
suggest that. So we go back tointention and motivation. Right?
So and let's understand thatwhen I get in my car and I drive
somewhere, I'm killing fliesalong the way. Can I walk?
I can walk. Can I watch where mysteps are? I step on grass. Oh,
I'm probably harming somethingthere as well.
Wendy (28:19):
Even the grass.
Mordy (28:19):
Even the grass. Well, yeah. Okay. I don't wanna get
into whether grass are sentientbeings or not, but that's
another story. But sure.
Even the grass. That's a whole
Wendy (28:27):
they are, but that's okay.
Mordy (28:28):
Okay. They're okay. I'm not gonna disagree with that.
Wendy (28:31):
I'm I'm like an animist, I guess.
Mordy (28:32):
So I'm a vegetarian. But like the Dalai Lama, not to
compare myself to Dalai Lama,once a week or so, could be
more, sometimes I'll have fish.Okay. Well, what we do is as
Buddhists, specifically as Idon't wanna yeah. We'll just
leave it at that as Buddhists,practicing Buddhist, is we will
(28:53):
express some kind of prayerrecognizing that that animal
gave its life so that I canbenefit.
And wishing the consciousness ofthat animal well, so that when
it is reborn, it is reborn, hasa better auspicious rebirth. So
(29:17):
that is how we address harm toanimals and living things. The
Buddha himself told hisstudents, if you are walking
around seeking alms for the dayand someone gives you living a a
meat, eat it. But don't go outthere requesting it. If it's
(29:42):
made specifically for you, don'teat it.
But if if it's just someone'sjust comes into you and so that
that's once again, we look atmotivation.
Wendy (29:52):
Wait. If somebody gives it to you, don't eat it?
Mordy (29:55):
No. No. If you're walking down the street with your bowl
and someone puts meat in yourbowl, eat it.
Wendy (29:59):
Okay. Okay. That's what I'm saying.
Mordy (30:00):
But don't go to a restaurant and request meat.
Wendy (30:02):
Okay. Meaning that it would do more harm to reject
someone's generous offer of foodto you than to request meat in
particular where it would causeharm to an animal.
Mordy (30:18):
Right. I'm not suggesting by rejecting it, you're going to
cause harm to the giver. I'm notsuggesting that at all.
Wendy (30:24):
Oh, okay.
Mordy (30:25):
Okay. So the way I interpret that is sometimes I'll
go out to eat with my wife.She's not a vegetarian. And I'll
order or I'm on the airplane,whatever. And I order egg and
cheese on a roll.
And it comes and I say, nobacon. Vegetarian, no bacon. And
lo and behold, it comes andthere's bacon in it. Some people
(30:49):
lose, they take the bacon out. Idon't do that.
My feeling about that is thatthis is my own in my own mind,
so we have to be careful when welook in our own mind. But my
motivation is that animal gaveits life. I don't wanna waste
it. Now from a healthperspective, one might take the
(31:10):
attitude that, you know, theanimal was killed at the moment
that it was killed in thatslaughterhouse. It was an
ultimate panic.
It was which is true. Andtherefore, that level of
chemical changes in that animalcome to into you because you're
now eating meat. I do believethat. But what I will do when I
(31:30):
do eat that that bacon or thatfish is I will say a prayer for
their consciousness to and andbe very grateful that they gave
their lives so that I can that Ican eat and nourish.
Wendy (31:42):
That that sounds just respectful too. It sounds Mhmm.
Purely respectful. And the toughpart about living on our planet
is is it's a planet of survival.Like, everybody eats everybody
else to survive, whether it'splant or animal.
I mean Mhmm. How to be inrelationship with that.
Mordy (32:02):
Mhmm.
Wendy (32:02):
And I guess we all have to find our way. Some people
don't care, and some people docare depending on, I guess,
their spiritual beliefs orwhatever they practice.
Mordy (32:14):
Right. What what what I like to recommend is, hey. Not
everyone's gonna be vegetarian.That's great. I get it.
No problem. But you know what?If you're eating meat four times
a week and you really care, andsome people don't, that's okay.
I don't I don't judge. Whateverpeople wanna do is okay with me
within reason, of course, butis, hey, instead of eating meat
four times a week, eat meatthree times a week.
(32:36):
Okay. Guess what? Now you'resaving lives. You wanna say a
prayer beforehand? I think wehave a prayer in the book
somewhere.
Three or four sentences that youcan say before you eat meat,
when you eat fish, things likethat. That's great too. It's an
awareness level. You call itrespectful. You call it good
karma if you want.
But we we wanna recognize thatwe that that that some animal
(32:59):
gave its life so that we couldbe nourished.
Wendy (33:02):
Understood. Okay. So I wanna go back to responsibility
for a second. Are we responsiblefor actions that cause harm that
we didn't intend? Like, you gavethe example of driving your
vehicle.
I mean, bugs are going tocollide with your vehicle, but
you're not intending, like, I'mgonna see how many bugs I can
(33:24):
kill when I go to the grocerystore.
Mordy (33:27):
Right. Right. Right. Sure. Sure.
Sure. Sure. So instead of usingthe word responsibility, let's
use the word karma just for theheck of it. So yes. So the
question is, do you havenegative karma if while you're
driving you hit a fly and youkill the fly?
And the answer is no, becauseyou don't have and your
(33:47):
intention is you're on your wayto a hospital, go save someone's
life. You know? It's like, okay.Your intention was good. You
didn't have that negative,selfish, concretized intention.
Wendy (33:59):
What if somebody's going to get some fast food, and it's
not a noble thing like going tosave someone's life? It's just
Mordy (34:06):
I knew you were gonna ask that. That was a bad example.
Someone's going to get some fastfood to eat themselves to eat
for themselves, and they hit afly and kill the fly. Same
thing. Their intention is not.
That was not their intention.
Wendy (34:18):
Okay. But the fact that they're probably getting a
burger, that's different.
Mordy (34:22):
They're going to the fast food to get a vegetarian
sandwich. Okay? I'm just tryingto I'm trying to make a point
here and and, your honor, andnot letting you make my point.
Wendy (34:33):
I don't know. I don't mean to be a pain in the ass.
Mordy (34:34):
But That's okay.
Wendy (34:35):
I'm I'm just I'm just like yeah. Just, again, trying
to understand. And also lookthrough the lens that most
people probably are lookingthrough is that they might be
asking themselves this question.So does that mean, like, I
shouldn't eat a hamburger or Ishouldn't? Yeah.
I mean, I don't know. It's suchan intimate thing.
Mordy (34:56):
I'm not gonna get into the shoulds and the shouldn'ts.
What I what I will say is thatif one if one eats meat and fish
without regard for the fact thatan animal is slaughtered for
them and they have zeroawareness of that, it's probably
(35:22):
negative karma.
Wendy (35:24):
Okay.
Mordy (35:25):
I hate to be and I'll be honest with you, I'll also add
an addendum. I don't really likebeing this has nothing to do
with you. I don't like puttingmyself in a position to say, Oh,
that person's negative. I don'tlike that. Do you know why?
Because I don't really know whatpeople's motivations are.
Wendy (35:43):
Right.
Mordy (35:44):
Know. Yeah. Go ahead. I
Wendy (35:46):
also know.
Mordy (35:47):
Go ahead.
Wendy (35:48):
I was just gonna say I also know I mean, based on my
work with people over years as aclinician, a mental health
clinician, that sometimes peoplecan take things very literally
and then maybe beat themselvesup over things and start
questioning things. So that'swhy I'm kind of playing devil's
advocate a little bit, just toput people at ease around, like,
(36:11):
oh, shit. Am I screwing up bydoing what I'm doing right now?
Mordy (36:15):
Right. So I think we need to take things in in steps. Step
number one is let's be aware.Step number one is let's educate
ourselves. Let's have anunderstanding.
Let's get clear about what'sgoing on. And then step number
two, same thing, little babysteps. You know, I'm gonna go
from if I buy into what Ilearned in step one, I'm gonna
(36:35):
eat a little bit less meat. Ifyou're motivated to in one year,
six months or two years laternot to eat any meat, great, no
problem. If you wanna eat meat,great.
No problem. I don't walk by fastfood restaurants looking at
people eating meat and going,oh, bad karma for people. I
don't know what their motivationis. I have zero idea. That's why
I hesitate to say what is goodand what is bad karma because
it's based on motivation, whichI don't know.
(36:56):
I barely know my own motivationshalf the time or 9080% of the
time running around my head. Butthat's the idea. That's where we
wanna head towards is becomingmore aware, more lucid so that
we understand our motivationsand we go, you know, I really my
motivation is not really verypure here. I need to either
change my motivation or changemy action or or rethink my
(37:18):
thought.
Wendy (37:19):
Okay. Again, I think it's tricky territory because and, I
don't mean to be a pain in theass, but tricky territory in
that we can talk ourselves intoor out of anything. Right? We
can justify anything. So if wesay our intentions are actually
good, but subconsciously orunconsciously
Mordy (37:39):
Mhmm.
Wendy (37:40):
There's really a desire to do harm, but we're telling
ourselves, I'm not trying tohurt that person, or I'm not
trying to hurt that thing orwhatever, or I'm not trying to
generate this is I'm I'mgenerating good karma right now.
But in reality, theirunconscious motivation is in
conflict with what the storythey're telling themselves is.
Mordy (38:02):
Mhmm. Well, as you become more of a meditator and more
aware of your thoughts, then yousee that that unconscious
motivation is really verybecomes very conscious.
Wendy (38:14):
Okay.
Mordy (38:14):
You're hiding anything from yourself or fooling
yourself.
Wendy (38:18):
So that is the process.
Mordy (38:19):
That's the process. Okay. You don't wanna fool yourself
anymore. You don't wanna liveunder illusion. You don't wanna
have an underlying motivationthat's different than what you
think it is.
Blah blah blah. Yes. That'sthat's where we start.
Wendy (38:30):
Alright. So a lot of what I was reading in your book, it
seems to come back to, well,requiring a degree of compassion
or empathy for others. Mhmm. Andthat made me wonder about what
your perspective is onsociopathy or psychopathy. So
(38:54):
people who are sociopaths orpsychopaths and don't have the
their brains are not wired tohave empathy, and they can fake
compassion.
So from the Buddhist tradition,how does that mind fit into all
of this?
Mordy (39:11):
Mhmm. So I'm definitely not an expert on those big
words. I know what they are, bythe way. But I'm not an expert
on them. But what Buddhistsbelieve is that we all have, we
call it Buddha nature.
Even the little ant and dog, weall have Buddha nature. Talk
(39:32):
about trees and grass in anotherepisode. So we all have Buddha
nature, which means that butit's obscure. The sun is
shining, but sometimes there'sclouds over it. Is the sun still
shining?
Absolutely. But there's clouds.It's raining out. Is the sun
shining? It is, but you justdon't see same thing.
We have Buddha nature. Buddhanature but it gets obscured by
our karma and all these thingsthat kind of like all these
(39:56):
clouds, all this negativity. SoBuddha nature means yeah. I hate
to define it. So so butsomething along the lines of we
have a desire to to becompassionate and to reduce the
suffering in ourselves andothers.
When that is foremost in yourmind and and you are immersed in
(40:18):
that mentality, that state ofmind, that way of being, that's
Buddha nature. Now so people aresick. I get that. People are
psychopathology. I I get allthat.
But deep down, there's Buddhanature.
Wendy (40:36):
So would you say that somebody who is living a life
with a brain that is not wiredfor empathy, like a sociopath,
that that would be a byproductof that particular person's
karma? That this is like a abyproduct of Yes. That's
(40:57):
interesting. Okay.
Mordy (40:57):
So so there's genetics. Right? Mhmm. Father had that,
the son has that, whatever, orgrandson, etcetera, etcetera.
And then there's the culture.
There's lots of it's not likeit's like I said earlier, it's
not a linear mechanistic thing.It's not that simple. So there's
so many things that can comeinto play. Itself is a part of
karma. The culture, the stuff wewatch on TV, how our parents
(41:19):
treated us, what we learned inschool.
So this all comes into play. Noteveryone who is born two twins
are born, identical genetics,almost identical genetics, and
one of them has zero empathy,and the other one but they are
raised apart. And and the otherone is raised in an environment
where there's a lot ofcompassion. They'll they'll
(41:40):
probably grow up differently.
Wendy (41:42):
Interesting. Okay. Yeah. I'm not an expert on on
psychopathy or sociopathy, butmy understanding is that it is
it's like a wiring issue in thebrain. So it's like they're born
without the capacity.
But Right. I don't know if ifnot everybody who has that
wiring will manifest in harmingothers, but, like, becoming
(42:04):
serial killers, that kind ofthing. But I think the
environment plays a role inthat. So if if they have a lot
of trauma, if they're abused orwhatever, that that could
manifest in their ability tohave more ease with wanting to
really hurt people or killpeople or whatever. Anyway, I
know you don't wanna go downthat rabbit hole.
But I'll
Mordy (42:23):
go I'll go one step further, which is that this
concept of neuroplasticity,right, become very popular in
last ten, twenty years. So underneuroplasticity, nothing's
hardwired. I'll give you anexample. And these are just
anecdotal. Right?
The worst killers in the world,the worst murderers in the world
still have compassion for theirchildren. Or or you give them a
(42:45):
you know, they're in jail andyou let them you know, give them
a kitten or a dog or whatever totake care of and to train. And
they have compassion. So whichyou would never ever expect. Are
there people out there thatunder any circumstances, zero,
don't even have a compassion forthemselves, etcetera?
I'm sure there are, but it justmeans they haven't met the right
kitten yet.
Wendy (43:06):
Right, right, yeah. Yeah, well I probably should shut up
about that because I don't knowenough anyway.
Mordy (43:12):
Oh, don't let that bother me. I'm just always talk about
stuff I don't know anythingabout. I try not to let facts
get in the way.
Wendy (43:19):
Well, you're living in the right time.
Mordy (43:22):
Right. Exactly.
Wendy (43:26):
Alright. So let me ask you this one final question. Why
should we care about karma?
Mordy (43:32):
Right. Yeah. Well, from a very selfish point of view, if
you want to lead a happier, Ihate that word, freer life, less
suffering for yourself, thenit's like the Dalai Lama says,
if you're gonna be selfish, bewisely selfish, which is do
(43:52):
something for someone else.Because he knows by doing
something for someone else,you're gonna have you're gonna
get some accrue some good karma.So so that's at its at its most
at its core.
You know? That's why we carebecause you'll just live a
better life.
Wendy (44:12):
Alright.
Mordy (44:14):
I hope.
Wendy (44:15):
So if people wanted to learn more
Mordy (44:18):
Mhmm.
Wendy (44:19):
Beyond your book
Mordy (44:21):
Mhmm.
Wendy (44:22):
Do you work with people? Do you help them in this way? Do
you help them learn to meditate?
Mordy (44:29):
Yes. I so I I actually taught meditation for twenty,
thirty years and did one on oneand all that stuff, and I don't
really do that anymore. However,the best thing that they can do
is find a good teacher. Ateacher that puts a smile on
their face, a teacher that talksthe talk, walks the walk, a
teacher that you wanna go backand see and learn from them,
(44:51):
things like that. And that couldbe, frankly, honestly, it could
be in any religion.
I'm not here to promoteBuddhism. But if you wanted to
use the word karma in thoseteaching, then you gotta go to a
Buddhist, you know, center. Andyou could start by watching
YouTube videos, things like thatjust to kinda nurse your you'd
nurse your curiosity a littlebit and learn something. But
eventually, a lot of this stuffto to learn it appropriately and
(45:13):
to immerse yourself in it, youneed a teacher to guide you. So
that's that's my recommendation.
Wendy (45:19):
Alright. Great. And you might be able to find a
meditation center in your area.
Mordy (45:26):
Yes. For sure.
Wendy (45:28):
Here in Central Vermont, we have one in Northfield.
Mordy (45:31):
Ah, there you go. Yeah. And now with Zoom, you know,
like, we a lot of our classesare online on Zoom. So if for if
you wanna wanna come to one ofour classes led by Lama Lanang
Rinpoche, my coauthor, you go toBuddhist San Diego dot com, and
there's a full calendar of stuffon there. But, you know, we're
not here to promote ourselves,although he's a phenomenal
teacher, but there's there'splenty of places now you can go
(45:52):
on Zoom and and start learning.
Wendy (45:54):
Right. Well, I will include a link to his website in
the show notes.
Mordy (45:58):
Very good.
Wendy (45:59):
Thank you. Promote it. Yes. Thank you. And then, of
course, encourage people tocheck out your books.
Yes. You've also both, writtenthe book, The Tibetan Book of
the Dead for Beginners.
Mordy (46:09):
Yes. Thank you.
Wendy (46:10):
And your books can be purchased anywhere
Mordy (46:13):
Correct.
Wendy (46:13):
In the usual places.
Mordy (46:14):
Yeah. In many I think it's written in, like, eight or
nine different countries now.
Wendy (46:18):
Alright. Beautiful.
Mordy (46:19):
Yeah. Isn't that crazy?
Wendy (46:21):
Who would've thought? Makes sense. It makes sense.
Mordy, well, thank you so muchfor joining me.
Mordy (46:26):
Very nice meeting you, Wendy. Thank you so much.
Appreciate your time.
Wendy (46:33):
I feel like I should send Mordy a fruit basket or
something for putting up withme. Overall, I think I have a
better understanding of karma,so that's good. I hope you do
too. If you'd like to learn moreabout Buddhism, meditation, and
karma, please visit the websiteslinked in the show notes. Thank
(46:54):
you for listening.
I'll be back in a few weeks withone of my new favorite people
who shares simple and powerfulways to tell your story. Until
next time.
You're listening to Lucid Cafe. I'm your host, Wendy
Halley. Thanks for joining mefor another episode of Lucid
(00:33):
Cafe, a podcast exploringconsciousness and healing and
the complexities of being human.So today's episode is all about
karma, a subject that has alwaysconfused me and my confusion is
on full display in thisconversation. I spoke with Mordy
(00:54):
Levine who along with his coauthor, Lama Lhanang Rinpoche,
recently released the book, thebeginner's guide to karma, how
to live with less negativity andmore peace.
So when New World Libraryreached out and asked if I'd be
up for chatting with Morty, Iwas like, hell yeah. Maybe I'll
(01:16):
finally get some insight intothis word that a lot of people
use to describe a lot ofdifferent things. Mordy was very
patient with me and my manyobnoxious questions. I guess I
gave him lots of opportunitiesto demonstrate his decades of
Buddhist practice. How nice ofme.
(01:41):
In our conversation, Mordyexplains the role that the
universal law of cause andeffect or karma plays in our
lives and how to use thisunderstanding to create a more
positive path forward. LamaLhanang Rinpoche, who sadly
wasn't able to join us the daywe spoke, was born in the Amdo
region of historic Tibet andreceived a traditional monastic
(02:05):
education and later studiedunder several Tibetan lamas.
Today, he teaches VajrayanaBuddhism in San Diego,
California. Mordy Levine is anentrepreneur, meditation
teacher, and the president ofthe Jigme Lingpa Center in San
Diego. He also created theMeditation Pro Series, a
(02:25):
meditation program designed toalleviate chronic health issues.
So please enjoy my conversationwith Mordy Levine. Mordy, thank
you so much for joining me.
Mordy (02:40):
Happy to be here. Thank you.
Wendy (02:42):
Well, you'll have to excuse my ignorance on this
topic. I am truly a heathen. I'muncivilized, unenlightened. I I
love the definition of heathen,and it definitely fits for me.
So you'll have to just excuse myignorance, but I'm curious about
the topic, which so when theopportunity came up to talk with
(03:05):
you about this new book you'vejust released, I was psyched
because I thought, well, maybe Ican finally understand karma.
So let me just say that you andyour co author wrote the book,
The Beginner's Guide to Karma,How to Live with Less Negativity
and More Peace. So why don't westart with the real basics? How
(03:30):
do you define karma?
Mordy (03:33):
Well, it's not so much how I define it. I've had good
teachers, so I'll tell you howthey define it.
Wendy (03:38):
Fair enough.
Mordy (03:39):
So the definition of karma literally means action,
and it applies to action ofthought, action of speech, and
actual physical action. And thehistory of karma, or that word,
goes back three thousand years.If you wanna go back ten,
twenty, fifty thousand years,people did believe in something
like that, they just didn't havea name for it. They felt like if
(04:01):
you did things right, somethinggood would happen, something
wrong. You know, it's prettybasic stuff.
But that and that's true in allreligions. But the history of
karma goes back over threethousand years. It was written
about in the Upanishads, whichpredates Hinduism. The concept
is currently taught in many waysin Eastern religions. And
Buddha, who came along about twothousand six hundred years ago,
(04:22):
he brought to the table a numberof other additional concepts.
One is that this mechanisticlinear sense that we all think
of karma is not true. It's not asimple linear cause. It's far
more sophisticated. He alsotaught that the intention and
motivation is really the coreand basis of karma. So if I'm
(04:44):
gonna write a check to thecharity down the street for
$100, you know why?
Because my neighbor wrote acheck for 90 and I want people
to see that I put in 100. Orthen that's one intention or
motivation. Or I can write acheck for a hundred dollars
because you know what? Thosekids, they really need the
school supplies and the food andwhat have you. So it's based
(05:05):
upon the core of it is basedupon motivation or intention.
He also showed that we can wehave choice. We had nothing's
predetermined. We can change ournegative karma, so there's no
sense of predeterminism. Andthen finally, it plays a primary
role for those of us thatbelieve in rebirth in the kind
of life you will have and bereborn into because what we
(05:30):
believe as Buddhists is is well,everyone knows that you don't
take your body, your money, yourhouse, your dogs, your you don't
take anything with you. But froma Buddhist perspective, what you
do take with you is your karma.
Wendy (05:42):
Okay.
Mordy (05:42):
So that's the in a nutshell, what the Buddha
brought to the table.
Wendy (05:46):
So thank you for that. It still, to me, has this sort of
and maybe it's because I'm alittle thick. A lot thick. It
has a a I guess the nuance part.Because when people reference
karma to me, it's a verysimplistic form of karma, like
(06:07):
you were referencing. And and itusually the flavor of it
involves punishment of somesort. Like, I've heard people
say things actually, a lot ofpeople say things like, well, I
wanna do good in this lifetimeso that I'm not reborn as a what
they would consider a lowerspecies of animal or insect or
(06:29):
something like that. So theythey look at it like that, or
they're saying things like, thisis my last lifetime. I am fixing
everything in this lifetime. IfI had a dime for every time
somebody said that to me!
Mordy (06:40):
Mhmm. Sure.
Wendy (06:42):
I am done. No more of this human stuff. I am done with
this, which I get because it'sSure. Life on planet Earth is
not always easy.
But they have this sort of ideathat if they can get it right
this time, that they won't haveto come back. But there's always
this thread of karma goingthrough their comments, or that
(07:04):
I'm gonna pay in some way, orthis person will pay in some way
if they do harm to someone else.So those are typically the
things that I hear people talkabout. If you wanna comment on
any of that, that would
Mordy (07:18):
be great. Let's just go with all that. I'm good with
that. No. I'm I'm joking.
So there are basically threeconsequences to any action.
Remember, action is thought,speech, and actual actions.
There are actual actions. Thereare three consequences. One is
if I am if I shoot you, I ammore likely to shoot again.
(07:40):
And I am more likely to be shot,and I'm more likely to be in an
environment of shooting. If I'mgenerous, I'm more likely to be
generous again, developing ahabit. Habits are synonymous
with karma. I'm more likely forsomeone to be generous with me,
and I'm more likely to be in anenvironment of generosity.
That's kinda how theconsequences of karma are.
Wendy (07:59):
Okay.
Mordy (08:00):
I listed three basic consequences. More likely to do
it again. It's gonna happen backto me and or being in an
environment. And you could seeit, frankly, unfortunately, with
domestic abuse. Father hurts theson, the child, the mother,
whatever it is.
That kid grows up. Guess what?Unless he breaks that karma,
(08:21):
breaks out of that habit, it'sgonna happen again and again and
again. So bad example, but it'sit's it's truth. So let's talk a
little bit about some of thereferencing that you've
received.
And is it possible to I'm gonnatake care of all my karma now.
I'm gonna reword rephrase whatyou said so I don't have to come
back again. And and, you know,it's kinda like a Groundhog's
(08:42):
Day situation. And some lineagesof Buddhism believe that you can
become enlightened in thislifetime and therefore can go to
nirvana or come back and helpothers if you choose, etcetera,
etcetera. But that takes a lotof work.
We can talk about that, but I'mnot sure how helpful or
(09:04):
practical that might be in thisshort conversation. But sure.
Wendy (09:08):
Fair enough.
Mordy (09:09):
Yeah. So. And in essence, all of our habits can be
categorized very simply eitheras self centered versus selfish.
So if it's self if ourmotivation is self centered,
that's negative karma. So if Iwanna donate that money that I
mentioned earlier because I'mgonna wanna look better in the
(09:29):
eyes of other people, that's aself centered motivation, that's
supporting my ego, then that'snegative karma.
And if it's rich, I really wannatake care of those kids. That's
positive karma. That's onecategorization. Another
categorization is if I you know,we all have opinions and views
about ourselves, about others,about situations. The stronger
(09:52):
sense that my opinion is right.
Because the more stories we tellourselves over and over again,
you know, I'm a greatbusinessman. I'm a great
businessman. I'm a greatbusinessman. I'm this. I'm that.
I'm a great father. I'm that.That solidifies those thoughts
and that strengthens our senseof self, creates a sense of
permanency. Any action that doesthat creates negative karma, and
(10:16):
any thought, speech, or actionthat is very open minded creates
positive karma. So it's anotherway of looking at it.
That Donald Trump, he's gonna bea horrible president. I just
know I did that. I was like,yeah. Okay. So that sense that
kind of thing is negative karma.
And the possibility that hemight do positive things is is
(10:37):
positive karma. We just don'tknow. Open mindedness versus
Wendy (10:42):
So even thinking about something, it's not necessarily
always action.
Mordy (10:47):
Absolutely. So your thoughts, not mine, just yours,
by the way, create karma. So andif your thoughts are self
serving, selfish, solidifying,that's negative karma. And if
they're more open minded,etcetera, that's positive karma.
Wendy (11:09):
Okay.
Mordy (11:10):
And think about it. I mean, the NIH, I think, I've
said ten, twenty years ago, theydid some kind of study back in
the day. Says that we think80,000 thoughts in a twenty four
hour period. That's interesting.Okay.
I didn't know it was that manythoughts. You include dreaming.
You included it. Got it. But,you know, what's more
interesting is 85 to 9090% ofthose thoughts are the same from
day to day.
Not a lot of new creativethoughts coming in. That's kind
(11:34):
of a reflection of karma. We'rejust thinking the same thing,
same stories over and overagain.
Wendy (11:38):
Absolutely. Yeah. Alright. So I'd like to dive
into that a little bit deeperhere. So I I wanna reference a
quote from your book.
Karma is referred to as a seedthat gestates in the mind. And
then you describe theconsequences of actions taken to
illustrate this point. Can youdescribe how you see the
(12:00):
connection between the mind andaction and behavior?
Mordy (12:05):
Everything starts with thoughts. The mind leads the
way. I didn't say that. That'swhat the Buddha said. I just
repeated it a little bitdifferently.
The mind leads the way. So wethink, no pun intended, that,
oh, he hit me. I just hit himright back. It's a trigger. In
reality, there's if you break itdown very, very slowly, there is
(12:28):
a thought that takes place thereand you have the option if we
meditate or do things of thatnature, we have the option to
recognize the thought, be awareof it, and then choose whether
to do something about it or not.
And then eventually, if we areaware and have the courage and
(12:50):
desire, we can retrain our mindnot to have that negative
thought. Like, oh, that jerk, hepunched me. I'm gonna punch.
They think things things can bethought of differently.
Wendy (13:00):
Hold the phone. Yeah. Okay. So that's actually the the
piece that I really would liketo talk more about is you use
the phrase, if you're aware. Andso to me, triggers and habits
reside in the realm of theunconscious.
They're so habitual thattypically they're out of our
awareness. And I I'm fond ofsaying that I think humans are
(13:24):
95 to 99% unconscious when we'reawake, that we're just creatures
of habit, thinking and believingand reacting and behaving in the
same ways over and over again.
Mordy (13:35):
So And that's synonymous with we are creatures of our own
karma.
Wendy (13:40):
Okay.
Mordy (13:42):
Karma and habits are synonymous, those two words.
Wendy (13:45):
Okay. That's helpful to know. And I don't think most
people make the connection thattheir reactions are the result
of a habit or a pattern thatexists in their unconscious.
They're just thinking it's novelor that it's justified or it's
reasonable that they're notseeing that, oh, these these
beliefs that I have that likelygot set in stone when I was very
(14:08):
young are actually having thisripple effect later in my life.
And why do I keep finding myselfin this kind of relationship or
in this kind of work situationor in extreme cases getting
arrested over and over again forassault or whatever the case
Mordy (14:26):
may be. Absolutely. You're dead right on. Totally.
Exactly.
People are not aware. And theysay yeah. I mean, there's a
pattern. There's an expressionin Yiddish, which I'm gonna give
you to in English, which is ifnine out of 10 people tell you
you smell like fish, you smelllike fish. So here, you know,
when you create a pattern, butwe don't see the pattern.
Wendy (14:46):
Right.
Mordy (14:47):
Or we excuse it or we justify it or it's someone else
that creates this problem, notme.
Wendy (14:53):
Therein lies the dilemma to me, and that that's why I
love the word lucid so much.It's the name of my wellness
center, Lucid Path Wellness, andmy podcast is Lucid Cafe. The
idea of being lucid, to beaware, not just when you're
dreaming, like lucid dreaming,but to be lucid while you're
awake.
Mordy (15:13):
Mhmm.
Wendy (15:14):
How does one become aware of shit that they're not aware
of? If it's your perspective.
Mordy (15:21):
Sure. So I I I'm highly biased. Let's put that out
there.
Wendy (15:25):
Right.
Mordy (15:25):
Which is I believe pretty much the only way you can do
that is through meditation. Nowwhat I will say is that
meditation does not just meansitting somewhere cross legged,
eyes closed, fingers inposition, and and thinking all
the time or not thinking.Meditation can also be swimming.
Meditation can be gardening.Meditation can be any act where
(15:46):
your mind is focused.
And if it's not focused, thenyou bring it back into focus. So
it's just a way to retrain themind. And so meditation is not
playing tennis and, you know,and and your mind's all over
scattered. But it could beplaying tennis if you're just
totally focused on what you'redoing at that moment. And when
you are not focused, you bringit back into focus.
(16:08):
So by using some form ofmeditation, we could probably
list dozens, if not hundreds, ofof ways to retrain the mind
through that type of mentality.Then little by little, you
become aware of where yourthoughts are. And then you can
become aware that you actuallyhave a choice in how you think
(16:29):
and how you speak and how youact. So when I talk to people,
oh, that's my personality.Meaning, it's set and it's
fixed.
Wendy (16:37):
Right.
Mordy (16:38):
That's a reflection of calcification or concretization,
and therefore, that's where yougo down that road and that's
negative karma.
Wendy (16:46):
Well, and that's a belief in and of itself. It's just who
I am.
Mordy (16:50):
Yeah. It's just who I am. It's just how I am. Yeah.
Wendy (16:53):
So it's like I wouldn't expect anything different from
myself. Yeah. So there you go.You just have to kinda deal with
the fact that I get angry a lot.Yeah.
Or it's my parents' fault. Theytreated me like this, so now I'm
treating you like this.
Mordy (17:08):
Yeah. That's why I am who I am.
Wendy (17:09):
Deal with it. But I guess if you're wanting to be better
because, I mean, to me, healingis not an easy road because it's
like having to look in not justa regular mirror, it's a
magnifying mirror. So you cansee every flaw, every blackhead,
every and then it's like, how doI accept that about myself?
(17:31):
These blemishes in my psychethat are not serving me and not
serving others maybe. That's areally tough pill for a lot of
us to swallow is that idea thatit's easier to blame an external
source.
Right? It's harder to kinda lookat yourself in that way and say,
oh, I have some faulty thoughtsor faulty beliefs that are not
(17:54):
serving me.
Mordy (17:55):
Takes an incredible amount of courage to do it. You
have two choices. We can liveunder illusion, which what we do
most of the time, or we can livein lucidity. Got that. I got
that word in there for you.
Wendy (18:08):
Thank you very much. I appreciate that.
Mordy (18:09):
Yeah. My problem. So and I'm I'm gonna use different
words this time. We can live inour own prison of our own making
or we can be free. You know,people come to Buddhism or a lot
of religions because they wannabe happy.
I'm not quite sure what thatword means. I know what the word
free means and so we can bringthem to a certain sense of
(18:30):
freedom. Which could include joyand moments of happiness. But
Wendy (18:34):
But those are fleeting. Those
Mordy (18:36):
Those are fleeting. Right? Because Lama Lanang, my
coauthor, says, when the food isgood and the sun is shining,
everyone is a good Buddhistpractitioner.
Wendy (18:47):
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, would you mind I don't know how
comfortable you feel abouttalking about your own journey,
but your journey to Buddhism andyour process of hopefully
becoming more mindful.
Mordy (19:03):
Mhmm. Well, was born enlightened, so I'm joking. I
don't see no
Wendy (19:09):
Oh, you said enlightened. Was
Mordy (19:11):
like I was born enlightened. Was trying to what
Wendy (19:13):
city is that? I just Right. Right.
Mordy (19:15):
Right. So, no, I was born in a Well,
Wendy (19:17):
good for you. That's awesome. Yeah.
Mordy (19:19):
Yeah. Right.
Wendy (19:22):
Nothing to see here, folks. I'm done.
Mordy (19:24):
Right. So yeah. So I well, I'll I'll make it a so I'm
66 years old, so it's a verylong story. I'm gonna try to get
it down into, let's say, one ortwo minutes, which is in
graduate school at University ofChicago Business School. I was a
very unhappy person.
I didn't know I had been unhappymy whole life. And I got invited
to take a free Japanese karateclass. It's very traditional.
(19:48):
And I'm from Brooklyn. Was like,yeah, yeah, it's not gonna be a
problem for me.
And it was brutal. I was tenminutes into it and I hated
every minute. I said, I'm nevercoming back. I can't believe I
did this. But what I noticedwhen I was done was that my mind
was, as you would say, lucid,clear, joyful.
And not just because I didexercise. I'd always done
(20:09):
exercise, but I never felt thatway before. And I came back two
days later, and then I keptpracticing for the essentially
the last, whatever, thirty,forty years. So that was my
opening into Zen Buddhism.
Wendy (20:22):
If I can just interject a question real quick. Yep. What
was it about practicing martialarts that created that
clearness, that clarity?
Mordy (20:31):
If you're not in the moment, you're gonna get hit,
and you're gonna get hurt.
Wendy (20:35):
Yeah. There's also a degree of discipline too that
you're
Mordy (20:39):
so focused
Wendy (20:41):
on. Because as a former martial artist
Mordy (20:44):
Okay.
Wendy (20:44):
It is kind of life changing in that way to become
aware of your body becauseyou're moving it in ways that
are not natural always. Theydon't feel natural. And so it's
like having to coordinate all ofthese physical aspects and then
also try not to get your asskicked. At the same time, it
(21:04):
requires a great deal of focus.And so, yeah, you have to be
really present.
And then also to conditionyourself in order to be a good
fighter.
Mordy (21:14):
Yeah. Well well described. So there was
meditation before and afterclass, you had to pay attention.
If you didn't pay attention, youwould get hurt. You had to pay
attention so you can try to dothe forms or the Kumite or the
fighting well.
You had to pay attention. Andthe moment you weren't, you pay
a price. You had the likelihoodof paying a price. So that is
(21:35):
kind of what opened the door forme. And when you're paying
attention or everyone's gonnaquote my lama my coauthor, Lama
Hanang, the past is history.
The future is mystery. Thepresent moment is a gift. So I
would learn I learned. I'm stilllearning that the present moment
being in the present moment,you're in the present moment.
You're not thinking about, woeis me.
I can't believe that happened tome yesterday or tomorrow or this
(21:57):
is what's coming up. So the moreyou do that, the more you dip
yourself into that world, themore likely you are to stay in
that world. And and to get backto your original question, it's
very hard. It's very hard. Istill struggle with it today.
Everyone struggles with it untilyou're struggling with it less
and less, meaning to choose tobe in the present moment, to
choose to pay attention, and tonot be under an illusion that,
(22:20):
oh, that's because someone elsedid this and said that and blame
some other thing outside ofourselves.
Wendy (22:25):
So what did you do when you would bump up against maybe
frustration? Because the theprocess is not immediate. You
don't immediately arrive at thatdeeply mindful place. You have
to work towards it. Right?
Mordy (22:37):
I mean Mhmm.
Wendy (22:38):
But not every day is an easy day to do that.
Mordy (22:41):
To get back to you to get back to your question, I'm
keeping looking over at my dog.That's why I wanna make sure
he's behaving, which he's not.But to answer your question a
few different ways, one is it'sa little bit like playing golf.
People go out there play golf,they play horribly, and then
somewhere after three or fourhours they have one great shot
(23:02):
and that great shot them backthe next week. So this is a
little bit similar to that,which is life is difficult, our
minds are out of control, butthen you kind of have a little
bit of moment of clarity or alittle bit of silence or clarity
during meditation or you see howit impacts some other part of
(23:25):
your day and you realize, ah,I'm gonna keep doing more of
this.
It's a good thing.
Wendy (23:30):
You have to have a degree of motivation.
Mordy (23:33):
Yes. Absolutely.
Wendy (23:35):
Or maybe a high degree.
Mordy (23:37):
Well, different degrees, certainly, you know, but some
people choose not to do martialarts. They choose to do tea
ceremony or flower arrangementor swimming or whatever. And
some people practice martialarts three hours a day for
months and years. Other peoplejust go swimming twice a week.
So different degrees ofmotivation, different degrees of
(23:58):
we'll call it I don't wanna usethe word success, progress.
Wendy (24:02):
So then are you recommending that folks try to
find a practice that resonateswith them and maybe fills them
with a bit of excitement, evenknowing that it could be
challenging at times, butbecause of that excitement,
they're more likely to stick toit?
Mordy (24:19):
Absolutely. So, you know, there's a whole comfort zone
theory, which is you stay inyour comfort zone and you just
you're like the frog in thefrying pan. You're just gonna
wither away. You go too faroutside of your comfort zone,
and you're in panic mode. Youdon't really learn anything.
So you have to go outside yourcomfort zone a little bit in
order to learn something, butbut you have to pick something
that you like or a teacher thatis motivating. You don't wanna
(24:42):
just go to a some martial artsclass with someone's brutal or
they're not motivating you orthey don't put a smile on your
face.
Wendy (24:49):
Someone with bad karma.
Mordy (24:51):
That right. Exactly. That's exactly right. So they
have to talk the talk and walkthe walk. And and, you know,
when you come out of a a classon like I said, it could be
anything or I keep referring toswimming, could be gardening or
you don't even have to go to aclass.
But something's gotta put alittle bit of smile on your face
and want you to to come back sothat, you know, that that's how
(25:13):
you know that you found theright when I was teaching
martial arts, people would say,oh, should my son or daughter do
judo or should they do karate?It's like, it doesn't really
matter. Find the right teacher.
Wendy (25:23):
Or the right art too.
Mordy (25:24):
Or the right art. Or the right art. Absolutely.
Absolutely. The right people.
Wendy (25:30):
Okay. That's super helpful. How about I thought
this was interesting in yourbook. Two types of karma, heavy
and light. Can you talk a bitabout the differentiation
between those two types ofkarma?
Mordy (25:46):
Sure. So there's thoughts which can lead to speech or lead
to action. If I'm sitting on mysofa or sitting on my couch and
I'm watching some politician onTV and I'm going, I could kill
that guy or gal. Okay. That'sclearly not positive karma.
It's negative karma. But there'sa big difference between that
and me going and getting a gun,driving over to DC. Sound
(26:09):
familiar to anyone? And and andand trying to shoot someone,
that is more of a completeaction. Heavier versus light as
well.
You know, there's a fly in theroom, and I'm gonna go swat it.
Clearly not positive karma, butit's doesn't compare to me
running someone overintentionally with my car.
Wendy (26:31):
Understood. Okay. So heavy karma is more about
consequences that have direeffects?
Mordy (26:39):
Heavy karma, yeah, are more about consequences related
to the actions. And thoseactions, you have to look at
your the motivation and thedegree of action. For example,
humans are not do not have thesame killing a human is
different than killing a a fly.Harming one's parent is a lot
(27:01):
heavier than harming someoneelse. Harming your spiritual
teacher is a lot heavier thanharming someone else.
Speech has doesn't have as muchharm as action itself. So
thinking something is differentthan speaking it is different
something than than actuallydoing something about it.
Wendy (27:18):
Okay. So I'll just add this to my ignorant question
list. But I remember going tosome workshop at I can't
remember where it was. Anyway, Iremember hearing someone talk
about not wanting to harm anycreature.
Mordy (27:38):
Mhmm.
Wendy (27:38):
They didn't like stepping on ants. Mhmm. Just zero harm,
not wanting to eat any animalprotein because of karma. They
were saying, like So is that thesuggestion? Is that people
should be living like that, oris that more an extreme?
Mordy (27:58):
It's definitely extreme, and we would not necessarily
suggest that. So we go back tointention and motivation. Right?
So and let's understand thatwhen I get in my car and I drive
somewhere, I'm killing fliesalong the way. Can I walk?
I can walk. Can I watch where mysteps are? I step on grass. Oh,
I'm probably harming somethingthere as well.
Wendy (28:19):
Even the grass.
Mordy (28:19):
Even the grass. Well, yeah. Okay. I don't wanna get
into whether grass are sentientbeings or not, but that's
another story. But sure.
Even the grass. That's a whole
Wendy (28:27):
they are, but that's okay.
Mordy (28:28):
Okay. They're okay. I'm not gonna disagree with that.
Wendy (28:31):
I'm I'm like an animist, I guess.
Mordy (28:32):
So I'm a vegetarian. But like the Dalai Lama, not to
compare myself to Dalai Lama,once a week or so, could be
more, sometimes I'll have fish.Okay. Well, what we do is as
Buddhists, specifically as Idon't wanna yeah. We'll just
leave it at that as Buddhists,practicing Buddhist, is we will
(28:53):
express some kind of prayerrecognizing that that animal
gave its life so that I canbenefit.
And wishing the consciousness ofthat animal well, so that when
it is reborn, it is reborn, hasa better auspicious rebirth. So
(29:17):
that is how we address harm toanimals and living things. The
Buddha himself told hisstudents, if you are walking
around seeking alms for the dayand someone gives you living a a
meat, eat it. But don't go outthere requesting it. If it's
(29:42):
made specifically for you, don'teat it.
But if if it's just someone'sjust comes into you and so that
that's once again, we look atmotivation.
Wendy (29:52):
Wait. If somebody gives it to you, don't eat it?
Mordy (29:55):
No. No. If you're walking down the street with your bowl
and someone puts meat in yourbowl, eat it.
Wendy (29:59):
Okay. Okay. That's what I'm saying.
Mordy (30:00):
But don't go to a restaurant and request meat.
Wendy (30:02):
Okay. Meaning that it would do more harm to reject
someone's generous offer of foodto you than to request meat in
particular where it would causeharm to an animal.
Mordy (30:18):
Right. I'm not suggesting by rejecting it, you're going to
cause harm to the giver. I'm notsuggesting that at all.
Wendy (30:24):
Oh, okay.
Mordy (30:25):
Okay. So the way I interpret that is sometimes I'll
go out to eat with my wife.She's not a vegetarian. And I'll
order or I'm on the airplane,whatever. And I order egg and
cheese on a roll.
And it comes and I say, nobacon. Vegetarian, no bacon. And
lo and behold, it comes andthere's bacon in it. Some people
(30:49):
lose, they take the bacon out. Idon't do that.
My feeling about that is thatthis is my own in my own mind,
so we have to be careful when welook in our own mind. But my
motivation is that animal gaveits life. I don't wanna waste
it. Now from a healthperspective, one might take the
(31:10):
attitude that, you know, theanimal was killed at the moment
that it was killed in thatslaughterhouse. It was an
ultimate panic.
It was which is true. Andtherefore, that level of
chemical changes in that animalcome to into you because you're
now eating meat. I do believethat. But what I will do when I
(31:30):
do eat that that bacon or thatfish is I will say a prayer for
their consciousness to and andbe very grateful that they gave
their lives so that I can that Ican eat and nourish.
Wendy (31:42):
That that sounds just respectful too. It sounds Mhmm.
Purely respectful. And the toughpart about living on our planet
is is it's a planet of survival.Like, everybody eats everybody
else to survive, whether it'splant or animal.
I mean Mhmm. How to be inrelationship with that.
Mordy (32:02):
Mhmm.
Wendy (32:02):
And I guess we all have to find our way. Some people
don't care, and some people docare depending on, I guess,
their spiritual beliefs orwhatever they practice.
Mordy (32:14):
Right. What what what I like to recommend is, hey. Not
everyone's gonna be vegetarian.That's great. I get it.
No problem. But you know what?If you're eating meat four times
a week and you really care, andsome people don't, that's okay.
I don't I don't judge. Whateverpeople wanna do is okay with me
within reason, of course, butis, hey, instead of eating meat
four times a week, eat meatthree times a week.
(32:36):
Okay. Guess what? Now you'resaving lives. You wanna say a
prayer beforehand? I think wehave a prayer in the book
somewhere.
Three or four sentences that youcan say before you eat meat,
when you eat fish, things likethat. That's great too. It's an
awareness level. You call itrespectful. You call it good
karma if you want.
But we we wanna recognize thatwe that that that some animal
(32:59):
gave its life so that we couldbe nourished.
Wendy (33:02):
Understood. Okay. So I wanna go back to responsibility
for a second. Are we responsiblefor actions that cause harm that
we didn't intend? Like, you gavethe example of driving your
vehicle.
I mean, bugs are going tocollide with your vehicle, but
you're not intending, like, I'mgonna see how many bugs I can
(33:24):
kill when I go to the grocerystore.
Mordy (33:27):
Right. Right. Right. Sure. Sure.
Sure. Sure. So instead of usingthe word responsibility, let's
use the word karma just for theheck of it. So yes. So the
question is, do you havenegative karma if while you're
driving you hit a fly and youkill the fly?
And the answer is no, becauseyou don't have and your
(33:47):
intention is you're on your wayto a hospital, go save someone's
life. You know? It's like, okay.Your intention was good. You
didn't have that negative,selfish, concretized intention.
Wendy (33:59):
What if somebody's going to get some fast food, and it's
not a noble thing like going tosave someone's life? It's just
Mordy (34:06):
I knew you were gonna ask that. That was a bad example.
Someone's going to get some fastfood to eat themselves to eat
for themselves, and they hit afly and kill the fly. Same
thing. Their intention is not.
That was not their intention.
Wendy (34:18):
Okay. But the fact that they're probably getting a
burger, that's different.
Mordy (34:22):
They're going to the fast food to get a vegetarian
sandwich. Okay? I'm just tryingto I'm trying to make a point
here and and, your honor, andnot letting you make my point.
Wendy (34:33):
I don't know. I don't mean to be a pain in the ass.
Mordy (34:34):
But That's okay.
Wendy (34:35):
I'm I'm just I'm just like yeah. Just, again, trying
to understand. And also lookthrough the lens that most
people probably are lookingthrough is that they might be
asking themselves this question.So does that mean, like, I
shouldn't eat a hamburger or Ishouldn't? Yeah.
I mean, I don't know. It's suchan intimate thing.
Mordy (34:56):
I'm not gonna get into the shoulds and the shouldn'ts.
What I what I will say is thatif one if one eats meat and fish
without regard for the fact thatan animal is slaughtered for
them and they have zeroawareness of that, it's probably
(35:22):
negative karma.
Wendy (35:24):
Okay.
Mordy (35:25):
I hate to be and I'll be honest with you, I'll also add
an addendum. I don't really likebeing this has nothing to do
with you. I don't like puttingmyself in a position to say, Oh,
that person's negative. I don'tlike that. Do you know why?
Because I don't really know whatpeople's motivations are.
Wendy (35:43):
Right.
Mordy (35:44):
Know. Yeah. Go ahead. I
Wendy (35:46):
also know.
Mordy (35:47):
Go ahead.
Wendy (35:48):
I was just gonna say I also know I mean, based on my
work with people over years as aclinician, a mental health
clinician, that sometimes peoplecan take things very literally
and then maybe beat themselvesup over things and start
questioning things. So that'swhy I'm kind of playing devil's
advocate a little bit, just toput people at ease around, like,
(36:11):
oh, shit. Am I screwing up bydoing what I'm doing right now?
Mordy (36:15):
Right. So I think we need to take things in in steps. Step
number one is let's be aware.Step number one is let's educate
ourselves. Let's have anunderstanding.
Let's get clear about what'sgoing on. And then step number
two, same thing, little babysteps. You know, I'm gonna go
from if I buy into what Ilearned in step one, I'm gonna
(36:35):
eat a little bit less meat. Ifyou're motivated to in one year,
six months or two years laternot to eat any meat, great, no
problem. If you wanna eat meat,great.
No problem. I don't walk by fastfood restaurants looking at
people eating meat and going,oh, bad karma for people. I
don't know what their motivationis. I have zero idea. That's why
I hesitate to say what is goodand what is bad karma because
it's based on motivation, whichI don't know.
(36:56):
I barely know my own motivationshalf the time or 9080% of the
time running around my head. Butthat's the idea. That's where we
wanna head towards is becomingmore aware, more lucid so that
we understand our motivationsand we go, you know, I really my
motivation is not really verypure here. I need to either
change my motivation or changemy action or or rethink my
(37:18):
thought.
Wendy (37:19):
Okay. Again, I think it's tricky territory because and, I
don't mean to be a pain in theass, but tricky territory in
that we can talk ourselves intoor out of anything. Right? We
can justify anything. So if wesay our intentions are actually
good, but subconsciously orunconsciously
Mordy (37:39):
Mhmm.
Wendy (37:40):
There's really a desire to do harm, but we're telling
ourselves, I'm not trying tohurt that person, or I'm not
trying to hurt that thing orwhatever, or I'm not trying to
generate this is I'm I'mgenerating good karma right now.
But in reality, theirunconscious motivation is in
conflict with what the storythey're telling themselves is.
Mordy (38:02):
Mhmm. Well, as you become more of a meditator and more
aware of your thoughts, then yousee that that unconscious
motivation is really verybecomes very conscious.
Wendy (38:14):
Okay.
Mordy (38:14):
You're hiding anything from yourself or fooling
yourself.
Wendy (38:18):
So that is the process.
Mordy (38:19):
That's the process. Okay. You don't wanna fool yourself
anymore. You don't wanna liveunder illusion. You don't wanna
have an underlying motivationthat's different than what you
think it is.
Blah blah blah. Yes. That'sthat's where we start.
Wendy (38:30):
Alright. So a lot of what I was reading in your book, it
seems to come back to, well,requiring a degree of compassion
or empathy for others. Mhmm. Andthat made me wonder about what
your perspective is onsociopathy or psychopathy. So
(38:54):
people who are sociopaths orpsychopaths and don't have the
their brains are not wired tohave empathy, and they can fake
compassion.
So from the Buddhist tradition,how does that mind fit into all
of this?
Mordy (39:11):
Mhmm. So I'm definitely not an expert on those big
words. I know what they are, bythe way. But I'm not an expert
on them. But what Buddhistsbelieve is that we all have, we
call it Buddha nature.
Even the little ant and dog, weall have Buddha nature. Talk
(39:32):
about trees and grass in anotherepisode. So we all have Buddha
nature, which means that butit's obscure. The sun is
shining, but sometimes there'sclouds over it. Is the sun still
shining?
Absolutely. But there's clouds.It's raining out. Is the sun
shining? It is, but you justdon't see same thing.
We have Buddha nature. Buddhanature but it gets obscured by
our karma and all these thingsthat kind of like all these
(39:56):
clouds, all this negativity. SoBuddha nature means yeah. I hate
to define it. So so butsomething along the lines of we
have a desire to to becompassionate and to reduce the
suffering in ourselves andothers.
When that is foremost in yourmind and and you are immersed in
(40:18):
that mentality, that state ofmind, that way of being, that's
Buddha nature. Now so people aresick. I get that. People are
psychopathology. I I get allthat.
But deep down, there's Buddhanature.
Wendy (40:36):
So would you say that somebody who is living a life
with a brain that is not wiredfor empathy, like a sociopath,
that that would be a byproductof that particular person's
karma? That this is like a abyproduct of Yes. That's
(40:57):
interesting. Okay.
Mordy (40:57):
So so there's genetics. Right? Mhmm. Father had that,
the son has that, whatever, orgrandson, etcetera, etcetera.
And then there's the culture.
There's lots of it's not likeit's like I said earlier, it's
not a linear mechanistic thing.It's not that simple. So there's
so many things that can comeinto play. Itself is a part of
karma. The culture, the stuff wewatch on TV, how our parents
(41:19):
treated us, what we learned inschool.
So this all comes into play. Noteveryone who is born two twins
are born, identical genetics,almost identical genetics, and
one of them has zero empathy,and the other one but they are
raised apart. And and the otherone is raised in an environment
where there's a lot ofcompassion. They'll they'll
(41:40):
probably grow up differently.
Wendy (41:42):
Interesting. Okay. Yeah. I'm not an expert on on
psychopathy or sociopathy, butmy understanding is that it is
it's like a wiring issue in thebrain. So it's like they're born
without the capacity.
But Right. I don't know if ifnot everybody who has that
wiring will manifest in harmingothers, but, like, becoming
(42:04):
serial killers, that kind ofthing. But I think the
environment plays a role inthat. So if if they have a lot
of trauma, if they're abused orwhatever, that that could
manifest in their ability tohave more ease with wanting to
really hurt people or killpeople or whatever. Anyway, I
know you don't wanna go downthat rabbit hole.
But I'll
Mordy (42:23):
go I'll go one step further, which is that this
concept of neuroplasticity,right, become very popular in
last ten, twenty years. So underneuroplasticity, nothing's
hardwired. I'll give you anexample. And these are just
anecdotal. Right?
The worst killers in the world,the worst murderers in the world
still have compassion for theirchildren. Or or you give them a
(42:45):
you know, they're in jail andyou let them you know, give them
a kitten or a dog or whatever totake care of and to train. And
they have compassion. So whichyou would never ever expect. Are
there people out there thatunder any circumstances, zero,
don't even have a compassion forthemselves, etcetera?
I'm sure there are, but it justmeans they haven't met the right
kitten yet.
Wendy (43:06):
Right, right, yeah. Yeah, well I probably should shut up
about that because I don't knowenough anyway.
Mordy (43:12):
Oh, don't let that bother me. I'm just always talk about
stuff I don't know anythingabout. I try not to let facts
get in the way.
Wendy (43:19):
Well, you're living in the right time.
Mordy (43:22):
Right. Exactly.
Wendy (43:26):
Alright. So let me ask you this one final question. Why
should we care about karma?
Mordy (43:32):
Right. Yeah. Well, from a very selfish point of view, if
you want to lead a happier, Ihate that word, freer life, less
suffering for yourself, thenit's like the Dalai Lama says,
if you're gonna be selfish, bewisely selfish, which is do
(43:52):
something for someone else.Because he knows by doing
something for someone else,you're gonna have you're gonna
get some accrue some good karma.So so that's at its at its most
at its core.
You know? That's why we carebecause you'll just live a
better life.
Wendy (44:12):
Alright.
Mordy (44:14):
I hope.
Wendy (44:15):
So if people wanted to learn more
Mordy (44:18):
Mhmm.
Wendy (44:19):
Beyond your book
Mordy (44:21):
Mhmm.
Wendy (44:22):
Do you work with people? Do you help them in this way? Do
you help them learn to meditate?
Mordy (44:29):
Yes. I so I I actually taught meditation for twenty,
thirty years and did one on oneand all that stuff, and I don't
really do that anymore. However,the best thing that they can do
is find a good teacher. Ateacher that puts a smile on
their face, a teacher that talksthe talk, walks the walk, a
teacher that you wanna go backand see and learn from them,
(44:51):
things like that. And that couldbe, frankly, honestly, it could
be in any religion.
I'm not here to promoteBuddhism. But if you wanted to
use the word karma in thoseteaching, then you gotta go to a
Buddhist, you know, center. Andyou could start by watching
YouTube videos, things like thatjust to kinda nurse your you'd
nurse your curiosity a littlebit and learn something. But
eventually, a lot of this stuffto to learn it appropriately and
(45:13):
to immerse yourself in it, youneed a teacher to guide you. So
that's that's my recommendation.
Wendy (45:19):
Alright. Great. And you might be able to find a
meditation center in your area.
Mordy (45:26):
Yes. For sure.
Wendy (45:28):
Here in Central Vermont, we have one in Northfield.
Mordy (45:31):
Ah, there you go. Yeah. And now with Zoom, you know,
like, we a lot of our classesare online on Zoom. So if for if
you wanna wanna come to one ofour classes led by Lama Lanang
Rinpoche, my coauthor, you go toBuddhist San Diego dot com, and
there's a full calendar of stuffon there. But, you know, we're
not here to promote ourselves,although he's a phenomenal
teacher, but there's there'splenty of places now you can go
(45:52):
on Zoom and and start learning.
Wendy (45:54):
Right. Well, I will include a link to his website in
the show notes.
Mordy (45:58):
Very good.
Wendy (45:59):
Thank you. Promote it. Yes. Thank you. And then, of
course, encourage people tocheck out your books.
Yes. You've also both, writtenthe book, The Tibetan Book of
the Dead for Beginners.
Mordy (46:09):
Yes. Thank you.
Wendy (46:10):
And your books can be purchased anywhere
Mordy (46:13):
Correct.
Wendy (46:13):
In the usual places.
Mordy (46:14):
Yeah. In many I think it's written in, like, eight or
nine different countries now.
Wendy (46:18):
Alright. Beautiful.
Mordy (46:19):
Yeah. Isn't that crazy?
Wendy (46:21):
Who would've thought? Makes sense. It makes sense.
Mordy, well, thank you so muchfor joining me.
Mordy (46:26):
Very nice meeting you, Wendy. Thank you so much.
Appreciate your time.
Wendy (46:33):
I feel like I should send Mordy a fruit basket or
something for putting up withme. Overall, I think I have a
better understanding of karma,so that's good. I hope you do
too. If you'd like to learn moreabout Buddhism, meditation, and
karma, please visit the websiteslinked in the show notes. Thank
(46:54):
you for listening.
I'll be back in a few weeks withone of my new favorite people
who shares simple and powerfulways to tell your story. Until
next time.
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