January 3, 2025 • 54 mins
This episode might surprise you. I had no idea until I spoke with my guest Bruce Fertman that the way we’ve unconsciously learned to walk is actually doing us a disservice. In fact, most of us are making it harder than it needs to be. In this episode we discuss Bruce and his coauthor Michael J. Gelb’s new book Walking Well: A New Approach for Experiencing Comfort and Vitality in Every Step; a helpful guide that’s chock full of secrets, advice, and guidance on walking with pleasure, power, poise, and peace.
Bruce Fertman brings sixty years of study as a movement artist and educator to his work, having trained in gymnastics, modern dance, ballet, contact improvisation, the Alexander Technique, tai chi chuan, aikido, chanoyu (Japanese tea ceremony), Argentine tango, and kyudo (Zen archery). For the past thirty years Fertman has taught in Europe, Asia, and the Americas helping people experience the interconnectedness of physical and spiritual life.
In this episode Bruce discusses:
- How walking can be more than exercise
- Walking as a metaphor
- “Sleep walking” your way through life
- How walking can help you increase your awareness of your body
- Developing a new relationship with your body
- Walking and breathing
- Walking for inspiration
- Myths about walking
- Walking for vitality
- Tips on how to walk well
- Walking with “bear” feet
- Walking shoulder to shoulder
- Walking for transformation
- The connection between sitting, standing and walking
Bruce and Michael’s website: Walking Well
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Wendy (00:02):
This is Wendy Halley, and you're listening to Lucid Cafe.
(00:31):
Hello, and thanks for joining mefor another episode of Lucid
Cafe, a podcast exploringhealing, consciousness, and the
complexities of being human. Atthe time this episode is being
released, we've officiallyentered 2025. Should be
interesting. You know what mightbe even more interesting is how
(00:52):
you're gonna walk through thecoming year.
How's that for a transition?!I'll answer, it was lame. But
today's episode is aboutwalking, which on its face also
sounds lame, but you might besurprised. I had no idea until I
spoke with my guest, BruceFertman, that the way we've
(01:14):
unconsciously learned to walkover time is actually doing us a
disservice. In fact, most of usare making it harder than it
needs to be.
Bruce and his co author, MichaelJ. Gelb, have recently released
the book Walking Well, a newapproach for experiencing
comfort and vitality in everystep. That's chock full of
(01:38):
secrets, advice, and guidance onwalking with pleasure, power,
poise, and peace. That's a lotof p's. In this conversation,
Bruce reveals some surprisingmyths we all buy into about
walking as well as some simpletips on the mechanics of walking
that you can try right away thatwill make a difference. I've
(02:00):
tried them and they do.
Bruce Fertman brings 60 years ofstudy as a movement artist and
educator to his work. Havingtrained in gymnastics, modern
dance, ballet, contactimprovisation, don't know what
that means, the Alexandertechnique, Tai Chi Chuan,
aikido, Japanese Tea Ceremony,Argentine Tango and Zen Archery.
(02:26):
For the past 30 years, Bruce hastaught in Europe, Asia and the
Americas helping peopleexperience the
interconnectedness of physicaland spiritual life. So please
enjoy my conversation with BruceFertman. Bruce, thank you so
much for joining me.
Bruce (02:44):
You're welcome.
Wendy (02:45):
Alright. So you are the coauthor of a new book called
Walking Well, A New Approach forComfort, Vitality, and
Inspiration in Every Step. Youand your coauthor, Michael, are
suggesting a different approachto walking, and it seems like
you're trying to encourage folksto do some walking or maybe more
(03:08):
walking or different kind ofwalking. So
Bruce (03:15):
All of the above.
Wendy (03:16):
All of the above. So, yeah, let's just start there.
What would you say your wish isfor readers picking up this
book?
Bruce (03:23):
Okay. Well, we are interested in walking, but we're
interested in it not solely as aform of exercise. We also think
it's a great way of exercising.But we have a bigger picture in
mind because we walk all throughthe day if we're lucky enough to
(03:49):
be able to walk. So it's notsomething it's we don't only
walk around the block forexercise, those of us who do
that.
We get up in the morning, and westand up, and we walk somewhere.
And then we do something. Andthen we walk somewhere else, and
we do something. And we do thatall through the day.
Wendy (04:11):
Right.
Bruce (04:12):
Or even if we're driving to work, we still have to walk
to our car, and we still have topark the car, and then we still
have to walk somewhere. And wedon't realize it because usually
our mind is on what it is wehave to do next. So we don't
take in this transitionaryaction that we do all through
(04:33):
the day. And we want to getpeople aware that, actually, we
walk through our day. We walkthrough the day.
We walk and do this, and when wewalk and do that. So we're
trying to get people aware ofhow they move through their day
(04:54):
because after all, that's all wehave one day and then another
day and so on. Right. And wewant people to walk through
their day with a particularquality, with a a kind of tempo
that allows people to establishresonance with themselves and
with other people and with theworld. And that takes me to our
(05:20):
using the idea of walking as ametaphor as well.
So there's what we calltransportational walking. That's
walking from a to b, but there'salso transformational walking.
So that's like, if we can walkthrough our day and establish
this walking tempo, maybe we canchange our lives for the for the
(05:46):
better. So walking for us is avery big subject.
Wendy (05:49):
Yeah. I was going to say your book is very expansive.
It's about walking, but it'sabout so much more than that
too, which is really cool. And,obviously, we're not all
conscious of how we're walkingand how we can use the time when
we're walking.
Bruce (06:05):
Well, you know, it's almost like the for us, the word
walking and living are synonyms.So we say walking your talk.
That's kind of about, like, howyou live your life. Or if we're
someone's having trouble withsomething, we say, well, let me
walk you through it. And that'salso like, that's walking as an
(06:25):
approach, like, how you dosomething.
We're looking at walking bothextremely practically. You know,
the book is really a lot aboutactually walking.
Wendy (06:38):
Right.
Bruce (06:39):
And there's a methodology behind that that I've spent a
half century developing. So it'samazingly simple and effective
as something can be after you'veworked on it for 50 years. And
so it really is about walking,but it's as much about walking
in the supermarket as it isabout walking up a mountain. You
(07:03):
know, the book's fascinating. Itit gives people a lot of ways of
thinking about movement andbecoming comfortable and
becoming vigorous in one's life.
Wendy (07:16):
Yeah. What's striking me as you're saying all of this is
how we take it for granted, andwhat you're inviting us to do is
to not take walking for grantedand that it's so much more than
getting you from point a topoint b. It's so habitual. We
don't even think about the factthat, oh, I'm walking from my
car to the grocery store orwhatever.
Bruce (07:37):
Mhmm.
Wendy (07:37):
It's a really kind of refreshing thing, right, to
think about walking. Mhmm.Because how often do we think
about walking? And in thosemetaphors you you gave examples
of, let me walk you throughthis. It also suggests that
there's a goal in mind.
You're taking steps to get tothat goal. So I have a feeling
(07:59):
that part of what you andMichael are suggesting is that
you can well, like I was sayingbefore, you can look at walking
in a much different way, a muchmore expansive way.
Bruce (08:08):
Well, you know, I think what you're getting at is that
we're really interested inpeople waking up, that people
are pretty much asleep to theireveryday movement life. But
Michael and I have trained inphysical disciplines our entire
life. So Michael's a 5th danaikidoist and has been studying
(08:33):
qigong and tai chi for years.And we're both trained Alexander
technique teachers and have beenteaching that for half century.
And I have just countless.
I've been studying movementnonstop. So for us, our bodies
are very awake and and very welltrained.
Wendy (08:53):
And you have an awareness of your bodies.
Bruce (08:56):
Yeah. We're awake. Our bodies are wide awake.
Wendy (08:58):
So that's what you mean.
Bruce (09:00):
That's what I mean. It's like when we go through the day,
we know we're moving.
Wendy (09:03):
Okay. Whereas most of us don't.
Bruce (09:06):
That's right. We know how how we are sitting. We know how
we're standing. We know howwe're speaking. We know how
we're walking.
We know how we we're using ourhands. We know how we're moving.
We know what our bodies aredoing moment by moment. That's a
lifetime of training. So ourfunction as elders that are
(09:30):
skilled in a particular way isto share what we know with the
general public who's gifted inother ways, where who are do
wonderful things that we don'tknow about.
But this is what we know about.So we're we're it's a time for
us in our lives where we wannashare what we know. And what we
(09:53):
feel, what we suspect is the wayin which to connect to the
general public is throughwalking because that that is the
common denominator. You see,that's what most of us do every
day. We walk from here to therethroughout the day.
So if we wanna teach people howto wake up physically and how to
(10:15):
be really well organized intheir physical life, that may be
the way in. And that's that'ssort of the premise of the book.
Wendy (10:25):
Yeah. It's actually very important. Right? I mean,
because what you're illustratingis the lack of relationship that
we have with our bodies. Again,I, have a wellness center, and
that's one of the things I'venoticed over the years is that
most of the time, I'm seeingpeople who are unwell, and
(10:46):
they're coming in to find somerelief in some way.
But it's not uncommon for themto see their bodies in a
negative way as something that'sbetrayed them. Which is sad
because it's actually doing itthe the best it can to try to to
heal at all times. Like, if youjust look at our livers and how
(11:07):
hard they're working constantly.
Bruce (11:11):
No. I to add to that point, I tell my students that
in all my years of teaching,I've rarely met a person that
loves their body. And the morebeautiful it is, the less they
like it. And But I've never meta body that doesn't love their
(11:31):
person.
Wendy (11:32):
Great point.
Bruce (11:33):
Yes. Yeah. Because just what you say, bodies are do our
bodies are, like, con constantservants that would totally
devoted or always trying to keepus alive.
Wendy (11:46):
24/7.
Bruce (11:48):
24/7. And so we spend a lot of time in the book trying
to get this idea across topeople. And what we've realized
is you can tell people this, butthey won't experience it until
you can get them to give upworrying and directing so much
(12:10):
of their attention on what theirbodies look like. So I call that
the cosmetic body and or theappearance body. And so people
are so preoccupied with whatthey look like, which other
animals are not.
Wendy (12:27):
Yes. It's very true.
Bruce (12:28):
So this sabotages our love relationship with with our
bodies. And then we don't wetend not to like it because
we're not as tall as we wannabe. We're not as thin as we
wanna be. We're not as beautifulas we wanna be in some way.
We're we wanna be we wanna beyounger.
(12:50):
We wanna be older. We wanna beyou know, it's just endless. And
we put our attention there whenit which means it can't be
somewhere else, which is, like,on the biological miracle of
being alive and having a body.
Wendy (13:06):
Right.
Bruce (13:06):
So so you you kinda have to get people aware that they're
preoccupied, that they'relooking at their body one way.
And as as they as they figurethat out and they stop doing
that so much, then they theystart to to say, oh my god. This
is great. I can walk. But notonly can I walk, I can learn to
(13:30):
walk really well and have itfeel fantastic?
Right? So then then you have aperson where you want them. Then
you can teach them somethingabout their body.
Wendy (13:40):
Yeah. And if you really, really think about that, it
actually seems it's sad. It'ssad for us to
Bruce (13:49):
It is.
Wendy (13:49):
I mean, I I I frequently talk about how head centric we
are in the western world.Interesting. We wanna analyze
and understand and then analyzesome more and trying to to get
to that golden deepunderstanding of why things are
the way they are. And and it'snever satisfying because even if
(14:12):
you develop a beautiful insight,it doesn't it doesn't
necessarily always change theway you feel unless you
acknowledge that there's a lotmore to you than your brain and
your cognition rather.
Bruce (14:26):
And I'll tell you those those wonderful insights, which
are actually very important, arecontingent on having a body. And
walking is actually veryimportant to thinking because
the brain uses about 20% of ouroxygen, but most people don't
breathe well. Most peopleinterfere with their breathing
(14:50):
dramatically, and so we spend agood bit of time in the book on
breathing.
Wendy (14:54):
Yeah.
Bruce (14:55):
And then the best way to learn to breathe better is to
walk well learn how to walkwell. And so when you learn to
walk well, you your body startsbreathing fully, and then more
oxygen goes to your brain, andthat's when you start to get the
(15:16):
good ideas. And then we teachpeople to write those ideas down
and how to work with thembecause we also teach what we
call inspirational walking,walking for inspirational,
walking for inspiration. Thereare so many thinkers and artists
and scientists that haveattested to their ideas coming
(15:39):
while they were walking. SoMichael is great at doing
research, and he's he gets all.
Wendy (15:46):
No. You have some great examples in the book of that.
Yeah.
Bruce (15:49):
Yeah. He really does.
Wendy (15:50):
So let's talk about walking.
Bruce (15:54):
K.
Wendy (15:54):
I think it would be helpful is maybe to address some
of the the myths that you pointout in the book about walking
Bruce (16:03):
Yeah.
Wendy (16:04):
If you don't mind.
Bruce (16:05):
No. Not at all. Well but this is a little bit hard to do
in a podcast because I usuallyteach people in person, and I I
watch them move.
Wendy (16:18):
Right.
Bruce (16:18):
You know? I teach them. They watch me. I even use my
hands a lot to change how peopleare organized in their bodies.
So I work very, very personallywith people, and I have for
forever since I was 12 years oldin teaching movement.
But I started teaching a coursea few years ago called Grace of
(16:42):
Sense, where I was just workingwith people online, and I was so
surprised at how much I couldget across, how much I could
help.
Wendy (16:52):
Oh, you could. Okay.
Bruce (16:54):
I could. I was really surprised. So and that's what
encouraged me to to talk toMichael about sharing these
ideas inside of a book and thatwe might even be able to teach
this material that way. So and Ithink we've succeeded. I think
we've we've really succeeded.
(17:14):
So I will talk to you a littlebit about some of the myths that
we have about walking. One mythis you don't have to walk 10,000
steps a day.
Wendy (17:26):
That's one of the ones that I was hoping you touch on.
Bruce (17:29):
Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to walk 10,000 steps a day. I
usually do, but I live out inthe country, and I have a very
privileged lifestyle. I I getup, and I walk I work for a
little while on my computer, andthen I take a walk before lunch.
And then I work some more in theafternoon, and then I take a
(17:51):
walk before dinner. And I livein the country, and I just walk
out my door. So it's easy forme, but it's not easy for
everyone. And so it turns out toget really good health benefits
from walking, you do need towalk about 75 100 steps a day.
And that's even a challenge fora lot of people.
(18:15):
But at least it's it's reallydoable if you make up your mind
that you're gonna do that. So sothat's that's good news. That
was where the research thatMichael delved into and found
out. Then the thing is, I think,that you don't need to walk as
much if you walk well.
Wendy (18:38):
Okay.
Bruce (18:40):
Yeah. If you you know, it's interesting. If you walk
poorly, then you're alsopracticing things that are not
good for you. In other words,you
Wendy (18:50):
Well, that's a great point.
Bruce (18:53):
Do you see what I mean?
Wendy (18:54):
You're Yeah.
Bruce (18:55):
You're practicing not walking well.
Wendy (18:57):
But you're getting the habit of walking Yeah. Poorly.
Bruce (19:01):
Yes. So, I mean, you'd still get certain benefits. It
helps your muscle tone. It doeshelp with breathing a little bit
and so on. But the amount ofenergy and pleasure that you can
get walking well, you you wouldget twice as much out of walking
half as much if you walked wellversus walked poorly.
(19:23):
So the amount is less importantthan how well you walk.
Honestly, that's if I could havea person walk 10,000 steps a day
and they walked poorly, and if Icould have them walk 2,000 steps
a day really well, they wouldget more out of walking 2,000
steps
Wendy (19:43):
a day. Alright.
Bruce (19:44):
Absolutely.
Wendy (19:45):
That's good to know.
Bruce (19:46):
Yes. It's really good to know. And that's why it's not
just a quantitative thing. It'sa qualitative thing, as it is
with everything.
Wendy (19:54):
Yeah. It makes sense.
Bruce (19:55):
Yeah. It makes sense, doesn't it? So that's one thing.
Here's another thing that's hardto explain without showing you,
but most well, no. I couldexplain this.
Most people think that walkingis an action. And everyone would
say, well, of course, walking isan action. I say, no. It's not
(20:17):
an action. It's an interaction.
This is one of the big things weteach in the book, which is that
you cannot take one step withoutthe ground.
Wendy (20:29):
Yes. You
Bruce (20:30):
cannot take one step. Right? Yeah. It's obvious. You
cannot.
So unless we are in a middle ofa jump or a leap in midair, we
are always touching something onthis earth. That's just how it
is to be a person 247 unlesswe're jumping in midair. So that
(20:51):
means we're always in tactualinteraction with something.
Like, right now, you're sittingon that chair. Right?
Wendy (21:00):
Yeah.
Bruce (21:00):
So you're interacting with the chair in a particular
way. You're relating. You'reinterrelating, interacting with
the chair.
Wendy (21:08):
Me and this chair go way back.
Bruce (21:09):
Yes. That's it. Right. So and I I am as well. And my feet
are on the ground, and your feetare probably on the ground or
one of them.
So you're also interacting withthe ground. Your back is
interacting with the back of thechair. Your pelvis is
interacting with the seat of thechair. It goes on and on.
Wendy (21:29):
And I'm just realizing you're probably analyzing how
I'm sitting.
Bruce (21:33):
Yeah. So but that's what I mean. So sitting is is an
interaction. Not nothing we do.There are no actions.
We don't do any actions. We onlyinteract.
Wendy (21:44):
Understood. Yeah.
Bruce (21:45):
Right? We only interact. We're interacting with our
computers right now and and witheach other. So walking is an
interaction. So that means that,really, the very first thing you
have to know after you recognizethat walking is an interaction
is what am I interacting with,and how am I interacting with
(22:06):
it, and with what am Iinteracting with with it.
And it's your feet. So the veryfirst thing you need to know to
understand is what is therelationship well, what are you
doing with your feet, and howare you using them as they
interact with the ground? Howare you being in your feet as
(22:26):
they interact with the ground?And that's the beginning of
that's where we begin. AndMichael and I take a person to
very systematically from theirrelationship of the bottoms of
their feet to the ground andwhat is actually going on there
because that's where the poweris initiated from in walking and
(22:48):
how that power movessequentially up the body into a
into a human walk.
And, interestingly, most of thatinteraction is behind the body
when you're walking. It has todo with what's going on with the
back foot. So another myth isthat, we think we stride
forward. We put one foot infront of the other, but we don't
(23:10):
put one foot in front of theother. We we have one foot
behind us all the time, and thatfoot that's behind us is
generating our walk.
It's a little bit like a paddlethat is the paddle goes back,
the canoe goes forward. You justdon't put your canoe forward and
expect the canoe to go forward.The
Wendy (23:32):
That's an excellent distinction. Yeah.
Bruce (23:34):
I'll tell you another myth. Actually, there's so many.
People have this idea that towalk with vitality, you need to
use a lot of effort. But,actually, that just tires you
out to use a lot of effort.Feels good in the beginning, but
(23:56):
then you get tired.
The secret to walking withvitality is learning how to walk
with less and less effort. So itmost people think, okay. I'm
gonna walk with the vitality,and they they put a lot of
pressure on the gas pedal. Whatwe do is we teach people how to
take their foot that they don'teven know is on the brake and
(24:17):
take it off the brake. Sothey're that they're not working
against themselves walking.
Wendy (24:24):
Right. Okay.
Bruce (24:25):
So they're taking away everything that interferes with
their walking. So it's moreabout learning to let go of all
the excessive things we do andall the tensions we hold in our
body So that when once you learnthe biomechanics of walking and
you're not interfering with yourbody, it's just so easy. Mhmm.
(24:49):
Ridiculously easy. And then it'sout of the ease and the comfort
of walking where you generatevitality.
Wendy (24:57):
Okay. So how would you describe vitality?
Bruce (25:00):
Well, vitality is is when you're receiving energy the
moment you're expending it. Soit's like when we when we do
something and we are having agreat time doing it and we're
excited and we're energized byit, we're receiving energy the
(25:22):
moment even though we're doingsomething and we're expending
energy. We're receivingsomething, and it's giving us
energy. You see? So if you don'tknow how to walk well and you're
laboring to walk, you just gettired.
So you're expending energy, butyou're not receiving energy. So
(25:42):
then you don't get you don'texperience vitality. There's
tremendous power that one canreceive from the ground if you
know how to receive it. But ifyou don't know how to relate to
the ground, you're not gonna getthat power. There's enormous
amount of energy that you canget through breathing.
But if you don't know how tobreathe well, you're not going
(26:03):
to get it. So it's learning howto receive energy as you are
expending it. It would be likedriving a car that is has solar
panels all over it. And whileyou're driving it, your energy
is coming in and charging youback up simultaneously. And we
(26:23):
all have experienced that whenwe're doing some you hear when I
was a kid, I used to dance toMotown music.
And you you hear some greatmusic, and you're dancing it.
And you you're using a lot ofenergy, but you finish the dance
and you feel
Wendy (26:38):
Fired up.
Bruce (26:38):
Fired up. Right? Yeah. Now that's Exactly. That's
vitality.
Wendy (26:42):
Okay.
Bruce (26:43):
Okay?
Wendy (26:44):
That's a great distinction too. Alright. So is
there a way you can give, like,a little hint as to what proper
I'm just imagining how hard itwas for you guys to describe
this in words. Now that we'retalking about it, I'm like, oh,
(27:06):
this is actually really complexcomplex thing to describe. But
can you give, like, a littletaste or a little hint of how to
properly connect your foot tothe earth?
Bruce (27:19):
Yeah. I can. But to tell you about the words, language is
very, very important when itcomes to education because we
think in language. And, also, wethink in images, and images are
very important when it comes tolearning movement, particularly.
But because I've been a teachersince teaching movement since I
was 12, and I'm 73, I've had towrestle with language.
(27:42):
Right? Because I've had to findlanguage that people understand
that make gets them to movewell.
Wendy (27:48):
Right. To translate.
Bruce (27:49):
So at this point in my life, it's not that difficult
for me.
Wendy (27:53):
Okay.
Bruce (27:54):
Because that
Wendy (27:54):
That makes sense.
Bruce (27:55):
You're school looking at
Wendy (27:56):
it for so long.
Bruce (27:57):
However, you know, when you write a book, then you're
and you're you're only usingwords, then you really have to
be precise.
Wendy (28:06):
Exactly. That's my point.
Bruce (28:08):
Yeah. Challenging.
Wendy (28:09):
Yeah. Super challenging.
Bruce (28:10):
Now I can verbally explain to you something you
could start to work with. Acouple things. Well, the first
thing that we do when we startto get people's feet, we want
people's feet to to be reallyrelaxed. Because if they're
(28:30):
really relaxed, they feel theground better, and they interact
with the ground better ifthey're relaxed. Just like 2
people kind of interact betterif they're not nervous and so
on.
Same kind of thing. So how doyou get your feet to relax and
(28:51):
your ankles? Both of those.Really, really So the first
thing we do is we try to getpeople to stop doing everything
they were taught about theirfeet. And and sometimes that's a
lot of things.
Like, if you ask people, they'llsay, well, my mom told me not to
make a lot of noise when I walk,or my dad said walk like a man,
(29:15):
or my dance teacher told me thatthat I should have high arches,
or my Tai Chi teacher said whenI walk, my toes should point
forward. All kinds of weirdthings. So the very first thing
is you say, well, you know, whatwould happen just for now if you
gave all that stuff up? And youjust let your feet come down the
(29:37):
way they want, like, without anyinstruction. Just find out what
they do by themselves.
I said, other animals, no onetells them what to do with their
feet. They just do whatever theydo. No one tells a little kid
what to you know, a baby who'slearning how to walk, what to do
with their feet. The babyfigures it out. They it's it's
woven into our DNA.
(29:59):
So what would happen if you justlet your feet come down the way
they want? Well, already, thingschange radically when people
give up all the stuff they weretaught to do with their feet.
That's the first step. It's justlet
Wendy (30:12):
you No pun intended.
Bruce (30:14):
No pun intended. So it's like your feet come down the way
they want, assuming that yourfeet know better than you do it
when it comes to this. Then thenext thing we we have to get
people to do is to let go ofsomething they don't even know
they're doing, which is bracing,tensing up their feet before
(30:36):
they touch the ground. So peopledon't realize they do it, but
they actually most people Imean, most adults, like 95%,
tighten their feet, brace theirfeet just before the moment of
impact as if that making thefoot harder is going to protect
(31:00):
it from hitting the ground.Right.
Just the way you would if youthought you were gonna a car
There's
Wendy (31:08):
a threat of some sort. Some kind
Bruce (31:10):
of threat, like a punch for for impact, a brace for
impact. We don't know we'redoing it. So then we get people
to experiment. We just say,well, what would happen if if
you realize, oh, there's noreason for me to brace for
impact? I mean, my feet aredesigned to protect themselves
without tightening up.
(31:32):
I mean, maybe there isn't anyreason I have to do that. Maybe
I can just leave my feet soft.Right? And maybe I can just
leave my ankles loose. Maybe Idon't need to tighten my ankles.
Right? And so we just startgetting people to think this
way, and it's almost like theirthe tension in their feet start
(31:58):
melting a bit. The tension fallsaway.
Wendy (32:02):
Makes sense. Yeah.
Bruce (32:03):
It's almost like people's feet are like overinflated
tires. They're they're and youtake a little air out of the
tire, and suddenly the tractionis better.
Wendy (32:14):
That's a great example.
Bruce (32:15):
And then right away, the interaction changes, and people
are walking differently. And sothat's where that's where it
starts. Now let me say one morething about that is one of the
ways so some people, you justspeak about it in language, and
they they get it. And somepeople, they don't quite get it
(32:35):
that way. They start working toohard at it.
And then you say, well, listen.It's so simple. Just imagine
that your feet are like reallybig bear feet, like a big
grizzly bear or a big polarbear. I love polar bear feet.
Right?
They're, like, 12 inches wide.They're so soft and padded, and
(33:01):
they're furry, and they'rewebbed. Polar bears can swim for
100 of miles. They're just theperfect feet. So you get a
person being like a child andjust even you can do it even
just sitting in your chair.
You can just imagine that yourfeet are growing, right, like a
movie, like, you know, thatyou're turning into a bear, and
(33:24):
your your feet are gettingreally big. Right? And then all
those qualities start to happenwithout having to analyze it.
That just starts happening. It'sall built into the image.
And then you have a person walk,imagining they have great big
polar bear feet or grizzly bearfeet, and there it is.
Wendy (33:44):
Game changer.
Bruce (33:45):
Game changer. So that's the very beginning of how we
teach people. And and, you know,it's it's interesting. But, you
know, when I was a youngerteacher, I mean, I had studied
anatomy, kinesiology, and I wasa graduate student, and I
studied all that stuff. And Ihad very sophisticated
vocabulary.
(34:05):
I could I could impress peoplewith what I knew. But now at 73,
I don't use that materialbecause I'm interested in the
results. Right? And I wanna beable to teach an 8 year old or
an 83 year old. And I wanteveryone to be able to get it,
and I want people to get itquickly.
(34:26):
And I know how to do that now,but that's because I've been
working on it for 63 years.
Wendy (34:32):
Right. Right. You have a bit of experience there.
Experience. And you've learned awhole bunch
Bruce (34:38):
in
Wendy (34:38):
the process. Yeah. And so the other stuff is extraneous.
Right?
Bruce (34:41):
Yeah. It's extraneous. It's not I I maybe won't come
off as intelligent, but it's notthat it's not that important at
this point.
Wendy (34:50):
Well, that's to suggest that there's not much
intelligence in what you'resaying today, which is not true.
Bruce (34:57):
Well, that's true. There's a tremendous amount of
intelligence. It's very,
Wendy (35:01):
And logic.
Bruce (35:02):
It's very simplified and distilled intelligence. And you
know what it is? It's veryevolved pedagogy. And it just
happens that when your pedagogywhen you really understand
something very, very deeply, youcan explain it simply.
Wendy (35:20):
And the way you come across because of that is with a
degree of confidence about it.So it's like, I know this
because I've experienced it, andI've witnessed many, many other
people. Yeah. Transform becauseof That's right. These
practices.
Bruce (35:36):
That's right. I am confident about it because I've
worked in person in 22 countrieswith, oh, at least 15,000
people. So over many years,decades.
Wendy (35:49):
It's a lot of feet. Yeah.
Bruce (35:50):
It's a lot of feet. And and and a lot of wonderful
people, I must say. I feel soprivileged. But it's a huge
longitudinal study. Right?
Because over those years, you'veyou you try things. You just
say, oh, no. That doesn't work.Oh, that works. After several
decades, you start to puttogether everything that works.
(36:14):
And that's how you develop a amethodology.
Wendy (36:17):
Makes perfect sense. Yeah. Teaching can do that.
Right? If you're you're havingto find all these different ways
to present information and youget a knack for it over time.
Yeah. Which is so cool. So, say,we're walking like a bear. Does
that automatically affect howwe're breathing, or are there
ways in which we need to adjustour breathing consciously?
Bruce (36:39):
Both. Both. Everything affects everything. That's
because we just have one body,and all the systems are are
intertwined. They don't workindependently.
So so when you get somethingreally good happening, really
natural happening in one part ofthe body, the whole it's like
like a community. So every partof the body sort of pick starts
(37:04):
picking it up. And then, again,you at some point, you reach a
critical mass. You make enoughchanges in the body, and you
reach critical mass, and thewhole body just changes. And
then that's where the comfortand vitality starts clicking in.
That said, it helps to study allthe parts and how they work, and
(37:27):
then you need to put it all backtogether again.
Wendy (37:30):
You're reminding me of my time in martial arts of how many
different things you have toattend to at the same time in
order to execute, for example, astrike really well? Or
Bruce (37:41):
Yes. Yes. Eventually, it integrates.
Wendy (37:44):
And it starts with your feet.
Bruce (37:45):
It does. So certainly in walking. So so, like, for
instance, we spend a good bit oftime talking about the arm
structure, and you would think,well, what does that have to do
with walking? But, actually, thearms have a great deal to do
with walking because if the armstructure, which includes your
clavicles and your scapula, arewaiting down on your ribs. Your
(38:12):
upper your ribs go that's verytop of your ribs go above your
clavicles, and your lungs areall the way up there as well as
all the way
Wendy (38:20):
Lungs are huge. Yeah.
Bruce (38:22):
Huge. Right? So if your arm structure is impeding upon
your torso, your your ribs, youdon't breathe as well. And,
also, if your arms are kind ofdead and hanging like dead
ropes, they don't participate inyour walk, and they need to.
Every part of your body walkingis the largest movement we can
(38:46):
make in our body.
If you walk well, every part ofyour body is moving inside and
out. All your organs. Right? Allof your legs, your pelvis, your
ribs, your spine, your arms,everything. So it's a huge
movement.
And if you learn to to make thatmovement effortlessly and in a
(39:08):
way that's really organicallyand logically organized, it's
just the best thing you can dofor yourself.
Wendy (39:15):
So it sounds like you just have to put in a little a
little bit training. Effort andtraining and then, of course,
attending to paying attention toYeah. Becoming aware of your
body.
Bruce (39:25):
Yeah. But the good news the good news is that that is
fun. That is my idea of a goodtime because, you know, most
people say, oh, no.
Wendy (39:34):
Sounds like a lot
Bruce (39:35):
of work. But, no, I say, hey. I I'm gonna learn something
new. And Michael and I make itso much fun
Wendy (39:42):
You do.
Bruce (39:43):
That it's not an effort. And then it's it's so you get
the reward so quickly that
Wendy (39:49):
It propels you forward.
Bruce (39:51):
Yeah. It's just like, oh, wow. This is feeling really
good. And so it reinforcesitself. Yeah.
So it's not a it's not a task.We're just teaching you how to
do something that's really fun,and we're teaching you how to do
it really well.
Wendy (40:04):
I think that's a great reframe and an important one. I
was just talking with a clientthe other day about a technique,
and the first thing they said isthat sounds like a lot of work.
So, clearly, I thought I made itsound fun, but, clearly, I
didn't. But it's interesting howthere's an avoidance of
something that seems like a lotof work even if it's gonna help
(40:27):
us
Bruce (40:28):
Yeah. A
Wendy (40:29):
little bit. Yeah. But the book, there's a a whole bunch of
creative processes in here thatyou're inviting folks to try and
experiment with.
Bruce (40:37):
Yeah.
Wendy (40:38):
What you're sharing is a lovely taste of maybe, like, a
little tease that people canstart doing on their own. And
then if they notice, which I'mhoping they will, they notice
that walking like a bear isactually fun and does make
walking feel different and moreinviting, then they will get
(41:00):
your book so that they can learnmore.
Bruce (41:03):
Yeah. It's not that we want people to walk like a bear.
It's that we want people toimagine playfully imagine
certain things that allow peopleto walk in a more human way.
Walk That's
Wendy (41:18):
a good catch.
Bruce (41:19):
Yeah. So we're not not imitating walking like a bear.
Wendy (41:22):
No. That would look ridiculous.
Bruce (41:23):
Even though bears can walk very well just on their
hind legs because they have thesame foot structure that we
have. Their implanted grace.
Wendy (41:32):
Okay.
Bruce (41:32):
Yeah. But the other thing that that I wanted to just touch
on before we we stop ourinterview is there are 2 other
kinds of walking besidestransportational walking and
inspirational walking. We alsotalk about walking shoulder to
shoulder. And this is veryimportant for us because life is
(41:55):
with people. Abraham Heschelsaid, existence is coexistence.
That's a little bit like when Isay there are no actions.
There's no interactions. Thereare no individuals. There's just
people being together. We can'tlive without other people.
Wendy (42:11):
Very true.
Bruce (42:11):
So how does that fit in with walking? Well, there are
lots of walking groups in theworld, and we we're hoping to
start walking well groups.That's one of our projects. So
learning to walk shoulder toshoulder and talking to each
other in real physicalthree-dimensional life is
(42:34):
something that we'd like tobring back. We'd like to get
people doing more of that.
When I talk to my son, sometimeswhen we're talking face to face,
we run into a bit of tension.But if I say to my son, Noah,
hey, Noah. Let's go for a walk.We can talk for hours. Right?
There's something about just thewalking togethers, finding a
(42:58):
timing, walking in the samedirection, walking out in
nature. It's really a good thingto do. So we write a lot about
that. And then the part of thebook that I think Michael and I
love the most has to do withwalking for positive change,
what we sometimes call walkingfor transformation. Because
(43:21):
there's a there's a connectionto to spiritual development and
spiritual life in relation towalking because, like, there are
pilgrimages that happen all overthe world Yeah.
Inside of all differentreligions. There's a reason why
they they do that walking andnot driving. There's a reason
why they walk. And Gandhi didthe famous salt march to the sea
(43:48):
and the making of salt. Heliberated the entire country
through walking.
We use walking for all kinds ofreasons that are political and
spiritual. So we write aboutthis a lot, and it just shows
how elemental and powerfulwalking is for humans and how
(44:14):
all the different ways we canuse it to reduce suffering and
elevate joy in the world. That'swhat Michael and I are after.
Wendy (44:25):
And it's such a rudimentary thing.
Bruce (44:28):
It's so rudimentary. It's so basic.
Wendy (44:31):
One of the things that really stood out to me in your
book is the section on sittingbecause I think that has become
epidemic. Right? Is that so manyof us, myself included, I have
to sit for a living in a lot ofinstances.
Bruce (44:45):
Yes. Yes. Well, you know, I sit 5 or 6 hours a day because
I'm a writer and a photographer,and I run a community, and I
have people all over the world Ihave to talk to. But I feel
great when I sit because I knowhow to sit well, because
something I've learned. Right?
And and there's a there's a verystrong connection between
(45:09):
sitting, standing, and walking.Because the way we sit in our
bodies, in the way our spine,pelvis, rib cage, and head are
organized in sitting is the waythey're going to be organized
when we stand is the way they'regonna be organized when we walk.
(45:34):
So if you notice little kids,when they're learning to walk,
they first have to learn how tosit.
Wendy (45:41):
Yep.
Bruce (45:41):
You can't learn to stand until you know how to sit, and
you can't learn to walk untilyou know how to stand. And
there's an organic logic tothat. And so for humans to learn
to walk well, just like babieslearn to walk well but we have
to relearn how to walk well. Yousee? Because we have all kinds
(46:02):
of things we do that get in theway of walking well.
Wendy (46:05):
Yes.
Bruce (46:07):
We have to relearn how to walk well. But to relearn how to
walk well, you have to learn howto stand well. And to re relearn
how to stand well, you have torelearn how to sit well. They're
really all one subject. Andthat's why, you know, people ask
Michael and I, why are youwriting about about sitting and
standing in a book that's aboutwalking?
Well, that's why.
Wendy (46:28):
Okay. So let me also just observe out loud that during
this entire conversation, Brucehas sat very upright. His
shoulders are square, and I amlike the shape of an s. Like, my
(46:48):
spine is curled. My leg is up.
I mean Yeah. So
Bruce (46:53):
Well, I I sit at 73 years old. I kind of sit like a child
that's 4 years old. But that'sbecause not that I'm sitting
correctly, but it's that I'verecovered the natural way to sit
that is still in there. It's amatter of uncovering it and
going back to it's what I callthe animal body. Humans are
(47:17):
animals.
Wendy (47:18):
Yes. We are.
Bruce (47:18):
And, yeah, in animals, no one educates an animal how to
move or how to sit or how tostand.
Wendy (47:25):
It's innate. Yeah.
Bruce (47:27):
Right? They just know it's it's hardwired. It is in
humans too. Mhmm. But but wesuperimpose cultural ideas and
gender ideas onto, our naturalbodies, then we we lose touch
with with the natural way tomove.
(47:48):
So what I've done is just spentI haven't taught myself the
right way to move. I've gottenrid of all the stuff or most of
the stuff that interferes withthe natural way to move. And
then the natural way to move isjust there. That's a lot of what
the Alexander technique isabout. So Michael and I are we
(48:09):
started studying that in ourearly twenties.
Wendy (48:12):
Do you wanna touch on just really briefly what that is
for people who don't know whatthe Alexander technique is?
Bruce (48:19):
Well, I can do that. It's an approach that this man, FM
Alexander, evolved way back inthe late 1800, he was a a man
that was an actor, had a certainamount of anxiety, fear,
overefforting in his way ofacting, and it resulted in his
(48:42):
losing his voice. And he setabout looking at what he was
doing. And in the process offiguring out this vocal issue,
he found his whole bodyorganizing itself in a different
way. And then he realized thatthis like, kind of every system
(49:05):
is connected to every system,And people got very interested
in what he was figuring outabout the human body and human
movement and human functioning.
And a lot of doctors gotinterested. So he he moved to
London. He spent the rest of hislife teaching his work. He
figured out a fantastic way ofusing his hands that helped
(49:30):
people to let go of all thisinterference. And the result was
people just moved beautifully,just naturally.
It's beautiful work. So Michaeland I were very drawn to it. But
Michael and I were drawn to alot of beautiful disciplines,
aikido, taijichuan, Japanese teaceremony, kyuto, a lot of Asian
(49:55):
arts. Michael and I are bothdrawn to a lot of Asian arts
because a lot of Asian arts havethought about the relationship
between the body and spirituallife more than western
disciplines. Yes.
But we teach all that material,much of that material, but we we
translate it into western lifeand western thinking. Yeah. So
(50:20):
people can get it. So it'sdoesn't sound esoteric.
Wendy (50:24):
Right. So you're borrowing from all these
different disciplines
Bruce (50:27):
Yes.
Wendy (50:27):
To teach people how to walk well.
Bruce (50:30):
Yeah. How to move naturally. Yes.
Wendy (50:33):
Alright. So after we finish, I am going to go on my
Lucid Path Wellness employeewellness walk, which is which is
just me because I am my onlyemployee.
Bruce (50:47):
I understand
Wendy (50:48):
that. And practice some of these
Bruce (50:51):
Great.
Wendy (50:51):
These, techniques that you have graciously shared. And
I am really appreciative of youcoming on and chatting with me
and, doing a really good job ofdescribing very kind of abstract
concepts. Thank you very muchfor doing that.
Bruce (51:10):
My pleasure.
Wendy (51:11):
And if people wanna learn more about Mhmm. About you, your
work
Bruce (51:18):
Yeah.
Wendy (51:19):
Are you teaching online classes regularly?
Bruce (51:22):
Yes. I'll I'll tell you. It's really simple.
Wendy (51:24):
Okay.
Bruce (51:24):
Go to walkingwell.com because we didn't put
illustrations in this bookintentionally. Because in this
day and age, you can hook a bookup to a website, and you can
give all the illustrations andall the videos. And so we have
(51:45):
put together a website that isso supportive of of what you're
learning in the book. Justfantastic videos on walking, on
breathing, on all kinds ofthings. So and then Oh.
Once you're walking well
Wendy (52:02):
I didn't even look at that.
Bruce (52:03):
Yeah. Once you're on walkingwell.com, you can buy the
book from there. And we also areoffering our a 3 hour course
that Michael and I are gonnateach online live for $75. We're
keeping it as inexpensive aspossible.
Wendy (52:20):
That's incredible. Yeah.
Bruce (52:21):
First one is on November 2nd. So people who whether
you've read the book or not, youcan jump on to the course. You
can meet me. You can meetMichael. You can get experience
how we teach.
And I also teach 9 day, veryimmersion walking as a way of
(52:42):
life retreats in Northern NewMexico. I've I've done 3 of them
this summer. I have one more todo in October. If you wanna go
deeply into this material,that's the way to to do it.
Wendy (52:57):
Very cool. And will you be doing the, live course every
so often?
Bruce (53:03):
We're gonna do it every month.
Wendy (53:04):
Oh, oh, okay. Alright. Because this will be evergreen
once it's live, and so peoplewill
Bruce (53:11):
Oh, great.
Wendy (53:11):
Be hearing it at different times.
Bruce (53:14):
Yes. Every month.
Wendy (53:15):
Well, that's awesome and incredibly helpful, I imagine.
Bruce (53:19):
Yeah.
Wendy (53:20):
Alright, sir. So I will put a link to walkingwell.com in
the show notes. And again, thankyou so much for coming up.
Bruce (53:30):
My great pleasure.
Wendy (53:32):
You're ready to try walking barefoot? Or maybe I
should say bare footed. That waslame too. Sorry. To learn more
about how to walk well, pleasevisit walking well.com.
Thank you for joining me. I hopethe coming year is as pleasant
and drama free as possible foryou. I'll be back in a few weeks
(53:55):
with a fun new episode exploringintuition, but you probably
already knew that. Also lame.Oh, my.
Until next time.
This is Wendy Halley, and you're listening to Lucid Cafe.
(00:31):
Hello, and thanks for joining mefor another episode of Lucid
Cafe, a podcast exploringhealing, consciousness, and the
complexities of being human. Atthe time this episode is being
released, we've officiallyentered 2025. Should be
interesting. You know what mightbe even more interesting is how
(00:52):
you're gonna walk through thecoming year.
How's that for a transition?!I'll answer, it was lame. But
today's episode is aboutwalking, which on its face also
sounds lame, but you might besurprised. I had no idea until I
spoke with my guest, BruceFertman, that the way we've
(01:14):
unconsciously learned to walkover time is actually doing us a
disservice. In fact, most of usare making it harder than it
needs to be.
Bruce and his co author, MichaelJ. Gelb, have recently released
the book Walking Well, a newapproach for experiencing
comfort and vitality in everystep. That's chock full of
(01:38):
secrets, advice, and guidance onwalking with pleasure, power,
poise, and peace. That's a lotof p's. In this conversation,
Bruce reveals some surprisingmyths we all buy into about
walking as well as some simpletips on the mechanics of walking
that you can try right away thatwill make a difference. I've
(02:00):
tried them and they do.
Bruce Fertman brings 60 years ofstudy as a movement artist and
educator to his work. Havingtrained in gymnastics, modern
dance, ballet, contactimprovisation, don't know what
that means, the Alexandertechnique, Tai Chi Chuan,
aikido, Japanese Tea Ceremony,Argentine Tango and Zen Archery.
(02:26):
For the past 30 years, Bruce hastaught in Europe, Asia and the
Americas helping peopleexperience the
interconnectedness of physicaland spiritual life. So please
enjoy my conversation with BruceFertman. Bruce, thank you so
much for joining me.
Bruce (02:44):
You're welcome.
Wendy (02:45):
Alright. So you are the coauthor of a new book called
Walking Well, A New Approach forComfort, Vitality, and
Inspiration in Every Step. Youand your coauthor, Michael, are
suggesting a different approachto walking, and it seems like
you're trying to encourage folksto do some walking or maybe more
(03:08):
walking or different kind ofwalking. So
Bruce (03:15):
All of the above.
Wendy (03:16):
All of the above. So, yeah, let's just start there.
What would you say your wish isfor readers picking up this
book?
Bruce (03:23):
Okay. Well, we are interested in walking, but we're
interested in it not solely as aform of exercise. We also think
it's a great way of exercising.But we have a bigger picture in
mind because we walk all throughthe day if we're lucky enough to
(03:49):
be able to walk. So it's notsomething it's we don't only
walk around the block forexercise, those of us who do
that.
We get up in the morning, and westand up, and we walk somewhere.
And then we do something. Andthen we walk somewhere else, and
we do something. And we do thatall through the day.
Wendy (04:11):
Right.
Bruce (04:12):
Or even if we're driving to work, we still have to walk
to our car, and we still have topark the car, and then we still
have to walk somewhere. And wedon't realize it because usually
our mind is on what it is wehave to do next. So we don't
take in this transitionaryaction that we do all through
(04:33):
the day. And we want to getpeople aware that, actually, we
walk through our day. We walkthrough the day.
We walk and do this, and when wewalk and do that. So we're
trying to get people aware ofhow they move through their day
(04:54):
because after all, that's all wehave one day and then another
day and so on. Right. And wewant people to walk through
their day with a particularquality, with a a kind of tempo
that allows people to establishresonance with themselves and
with other people and with theworld. And that takes me to our
(05:20):
using the idea of walking as ametaphor as well.
So there's what we calltransportational walking. That's
walking from a to b, but there'salso transformational walking.
So that's like, if we can walkthrough our day and establish
this walking tempo, maybe we canchange our lives for the for the
(05:46):
better. So walking for us is avery big subject.
Wendy (05:49):
Yeah. I was going to say your book is very expansive.
It's about walking, but it'sabout so much more than that
too, which is really cool. And,obviously, we're not all
conscious of how we're walkingand how we can use the time when
we're walking.
Bruce (06:05):
Well, you know, it's almost like the for us, the word
walking and living are synonyms.So we say walking your talk.
That's kind of about, like, howyou live your life. Or if we're
someone's having trouble withsomething, we say, well, let me
walk you through it. And that'salso like, that's walking as an
(06:25):
approach, like, how you dosomething.
We're looking at walking bothextremely practically. You know,
the book is really a lot aboutactually walking.
Wendy (06:38):
Right.
Bruce (06:39):
And there's a methodology behind that that I've spent a
half century developing. So it'samazingly simple and effective
as something can be after you'veworked on it for 50 years. And
so it really is about walking,but it's as much about walking
in the supermarket as it isabout walking up a mountain. You
(07:03):
know, the book's fascinating. Itit gives people a lot of ways of
thinking about movement andbecoming comfortable and
becoming vigorous in one's life.
Wendy (07:16):
Yeah. What's striking me as you're saying all of this is
how we take it for granted, andwhat you're inviting us to do is
to not take walking for grantedand that it's so much more than
getting you from point a topoint b. It's so habitual. We
don't even think about the factthat, oh, I'm walking from my
car to the grocery store orwhatever.
Bruce (07:37):
Mhmm.
Wendy (07:37):
It's a really kind of refreshing thing, right, to
think about walking. Mhmm.Because how often do we think
about walking? And in thosemetaphors you you gave examples
of, let me walk you throughthis. It also suggests that
there's a goal in mind.
You're taking steps to get tothat goal. So I have a feeling
(07:59):
that part of what you andMichael are suggesting is that
you can well, like I was sayingbefore, you can look at walking
in a much different way, a muchmore expansive way.
Bruce (08:08):
Well, you know, I think what you're getting at is that
we're really interested inpeople waking up, that people
are pretty much asleep to theireveryday movement life. But
Michael and I have trained inphysical disciplines our entire
life. So Michael's a 5th danaikidoist and has been studying
(08:33):
qigong and tai chi for years.And we're both trained Alexander
technique teachers and have beenteaching that for half century.
And I have just countless.
I've been studying movementnonstop. So for us, our bodies
are very awake and and very welltrained.
Wendy (08:53):
And you have an awareness of your bodies.
Bruce (08:56):
Yeah. We're awake. Our bodies are wide awake.
Wendy (08:58):
So that's what you mean.
Bruce (09:00):
That's what I mean. It's like when we go through the day,
we know we're moving.
Wendy (09:03):
Okay. Whereas most of us don't.
Bruce (09:06):
That's right. We know how how we are sitting. We know how
we're standing. We know howwe're speaking. We know how
we're walking.
We know how we we're using ourhands. We know how we're moving.
We know what our bodies aredoing moment by moment. That's a
lifetime of training. So ourfunction as elders that are
(09:30):
skilled in a particular way isto share what we know with the
general public who's gifted inother ways, where who are do
wonderful things that we don'tknow about.
But this is what we know about.So we're we're it's a time for
us in our lives where we wannashare what we know. And what we
(09:53):
feel, what we suspect is the wayin which to connect to the
general public is throughwalking because that that is the
common denominator. You see,that's what most of us do every
day. We walk from here to therethroughout the day.
So if we wanna teach people howto wake up physically and how to
(10:15):
be really well organized intheir physical life, that may be
the way in. And that's that'ssort of the premise of the book.
Wendy (10:25):
Yeah. It's actually very important. Right? I mean,
because what you're illustratingis the lack of relationship that
we have with our bodies. Again,I, have a wellness center, and
that's one of the things I'venoticed over the years is that
most of the time, I'm seeingpeople who are unwell, and
(10:46):
they're coming in to find somerelief in some way.
But it's not uncommon for themto see their bodies in a
negative way as something that'sbetrayed them. Which is sad
because it's actually doing itthe the best it can to try to to
heal at all times. Like, if youjust look at our livers and how
(11:07):
hard they're working constantly.
Bruce (11:11):
No. I to add to that point, I tell my students that
in all my years of teaching,I've rarely met a person that
loves their body. And the morebeautiful it is, the less they
like it. And But I've never meta body that doesn't love their
(11:31):
person.
Wendy (11:32):
Great point.
Bruce (11:33):
Yes. Yeah. Because just what you say, bodies are do our
bodies are, like, con constantservants that would totally
devoted or always trying to keepus alive.
Wendy (11:46):
24/7.
Bruce (11:48):
24/7. And so we spend a lot of time in the book trying
to get this idea across topeople. And what we've realized
is you can tell people this, butthey won't experience it until
you can get them to give upworrying and directing so much
(12:10):
of their attention on what theirbodies look like. So I call that
the cosmetic body and or theappearance body. And so people
are so preoccupied with whatthey look like, which other
animals are not.
Wendy (12:27):
Yes. It's very true.
Bruce (12:28):
So this sabotages our love relationship with with our
bodies. And then we don't wetend not to like it because
we're not as tall as we wannabe. We're not as thin as we
wanna be. We're not as beautifulas we wanna be in some way.
We're we wanna be we wanna beyounger.
(12:50):
We wanna be older. We wanna beyou know, it's just endless. And
we put our attention there whenit which means it can't be
somewhere else, which is, like,on the biological miracle of
being alive and having a body.
Wendy (13:06):
Right.
Bruce (13:06):
So so you you kinda have to get people aware that they're
preoccupied, that they'relooking at their body one way.
And as as they as they figurethat out and they stop doing
that so much, then they theystart to to say, oh my god. This
is great. I can walk. But notonly can I walk, I can learn to
(13:30):
walk really well and have itfeel fantastic?
Right? So then then you have aperson where you want them. Then
you can teach them somethingabout their body.
Wendy (13:40):
Yeah. And if you really, really think about that, it
actually seems it's sad. It'ssad for us to
Bruce (13:49):
It is.
Wendy (13:49):
I mean, I I I frequently talk about how head centric we
are in the western world.Interesting. We wanna analyze
and understand and then analyzesome more and trying to to get
to that golden deepunderstanding of why things are
the way they are. And and it'snever satisfying because even if
(14:12):
you develop a beautiful insight,it doesn't it doesn't
necessarily always change theway you feel unless you
acknowledge that there's a lotmore to you than your brain and
your cognition rather.
Bruce (14:26):
And I'll tell you those those wonderful insights, which
are actually very important, arecontingent on having a body. And
walking is actually veryimportant to thinking because
the brain uses about 20% of ouroxygen, but most people don't
breathe well. Most peopleinterfere with their breathing
(14:50):
dramatically, and so we spend agood bit of time in the book on
breathing.
Wendy (14:54):
Yeah.
Bruce (14:55):
And then the best way to learn to breathe better is to
walk well learn how to walkwell. And so when you learn to
walk well, you your body startsbreathing fully, and then more
oxygen goes to your brain, andthat's when you start to get the
(15:16):
good ideas. And then we teachpeople to write those ideas down
and how to work with thembecause we also teach what we
call inspirational walking,walking for inspirational,
walking for inspiration. Thereare so many thinkers and artists
and scientists that haveattested to their ideas coming
(15:39):
while they were walking. SoMichael is great at doing
research, and he's he gets all.
Wendy (15:46):
No. You have some great examples in the book of that.
Yeah.
Bruce (15:49):
Yeah. He really does.
Wendy (15:50):
So let's talk about walking.
Bruce (15:54):
K.
Wendy (15:54):
I think it would be helpful is maybe to address some
of the the myths that you pointout in the book about walking
Bruce (16:03):
Yeah.
Wendy (16:04):
If you don't mind.
Bruce (16:05):
No. Not at all. Well but this is a little bit hard to do
in a podcast because I usuallyteach people in person, and I I
watch them move.
Wendy (16:18):
Right.
Bruce (16:18):
You know? I teach them. They watch me. I even use my
hands a lot to change how peopleare organized in their bodies.
So I work very, very personallywith people, and I have for
forever since I was 12 years oldin teaching movement.
But I started teaching a coursea few years ago called Grace of
(16:42):
Sense, where I was just workingwith people online, and I was so
surprised at how much I couldget across, how much I could
help.
Wendy (16:52):
Oh, you could. Okay.
Bruce (16:54):
I could. I was really surprised. So and that's what
encouraged me to to talk toMichael about sharing these
ideas inside of a book and thatwe might even be able to teach
this material that way. So and Ithink we've succeeded. I think
we've we've really succeeded.
(17:14):
So I will talk to you a littlebit about some of the myths that
we have about walking. One mythis you don't have to walk 10,000
steps a day.
Wendy (17:26):
That's one of the ones that I was hoping you touch on.
Bruce (17:29):
Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to walk 10,000 steps a day. I
usually do, but I live out inthe country, and I have a very
privileged lifestyle. I I getup, and I walk I work for a
little while on my computer, andthen I take a walk before lunch.
And then I work some more in theafternoon, and then I take a
(17:51):
walk before dinner. And I livein the country, and I just walk
out my door. So it's easy forme, but it's not easy for
everyone. And so it turns out toget really good health benefits
from walking, you do need towalk about 75 100 steps a day.
And that's even a challenge fora lot of people.
(18:15):
But at least it's it's reallydoable if you make up your mind
that you're gonna do that. So sothat's that's good news. That
was where the research thatMichael delved into and found
out. Then the thing is, I think,that you don't need to walk as
much if you walk well.
Wendy (18:38):
Okay.
Bruce (18:40):
Yeah. If you you know, it's interesting. If you walk
poorly, then you're alsopracticing things that are not
good for you. In other words,you
Wendy (18:50):
Well, that's a great point.
Bruce (18:53):
Do you see what I mean?
Wendy (18:54):
You're Yeah.
Bruce (18:55):
You're practicing not walking well.
Wendy (18:57):
But you're getting the habit of walking Yeah. Poorly.
Bruce (19:01):
Yes. So, I mean, you'd still get certain benefits. It
helps your muscle tone. It doeshelp with breathing a little bit
and so on. But the amount ofenergy and pleasure that you can
get walking well, you you wouldget twice as much out of walking
half as much if you walked wellversus walked poorly.
(19:23):
So the amount is less importantthan how well you walk.
Honestly, that's if I could havea person walk 10,000 steps a day
and they walked poorly, and if Icould have them walk 2,000 steps
a day really well, they wouldget more out of walking 2,000
steps
Wendy (19:43):
a day. Alright.
Bruce (19:44):
Absolutely.
Wendy (19:45):
That's good to know.
Bruce (19:46):
Yes. It's really good to know. And that's why it's not
just a quantitative thing. It'sa qualitative thing, as it is
with everything.
Wendy (19:54):
Yeah. It makes sense.
Bruce (19:55):
Yeah. It makes sense, doesn't it? So that's one thing.
Here's another thing that's hardto explain without showing you,
but most well, no. I couldexplain this.
Most people think that walkingis an action. And everyone would
say, well, of course, walking isan action. I say, no. It's not
(20:17):
an action. It's an interaction.
This is one of the big things weteach in the book, which is that
you cannot take one step withoutthe ground.
Wendy (20:29):
Yes. You
Bruce (20:30):
cannot take one step. Right? Yeah. It's obvious. You
cannot.
So unless we are in a middle ofa jump or a leap in midair, we
are always touching something onthis earth. That's just how it
is to be a person 247 unlesswe're jumping in midair. So that
(20:51):
means we're always in tactualinteraction with something.
Like, right now, you're sittingon that chair. Right?
Wendy (21:00):
Yeah.
Bruce (21:00):
So you're interacting with the chair in a particular
way. You're relating. You'reinterrelating, interacting with
the chair.
Wendy (21:08):
Me and this chair go way back.
Bruce (21:09):
Yes. That's it. Right. So and I I am as well. And my feet
are on the ground, and your feetare probably on the ground or
one of them.
So you're also interacting withthe ground. Your back is
interacting with the back of thechair. Your pelvis is
interacting with the seat of thechair. It goes on and on.
Wendy (21:29):
And I'm just realizing you're probably analyzing how
I'm sitting.
Bruce (21:33):
Yeah. So but that's what I mean. So sitting is is an
interaction. Not nothing we do.There are no actions.
We don't do any actions. We onlyinteract.
Wendy (21:44):
Understood. Yeah.
Bruce (21:45):
Right? We only interact. We're interacting with our
computers right now and and witheach other. So walking is an
interaction. So that means that,really, the very first thing you
have to know after you recognizethat walking is an interaction
is what am I interacting with,and how am I interacting with
(22:06):
it, and with what am Iinteracting with with it.
And it's your feet. So the veryfirst thing you need to know to
understand is what is therelationship well, what are you
doing with your feet, and howare you using them as they
interact with the ground? Howare you being in your feet as
(22:26):
they interact with the ground?And that's the beginning of
that's where we begin. AndMichael and I take a person to
very systematically from theirrelationship of the bottoms of
their feet to the ground andwhat is actually going on there
because that's where the poweris initiated from in walking and
(22:48):
how that power movessequentially up the body into a
into a human walk.
And, interestingly, most of thatinteraction is behind the body
when you're walking. It has todo with what's going on with the
back foot. So another myth isthat, we think we stride
forward. We put one foot infront of the other, but we don't
(23:10):
put one foot in front of theother. We we have one foot
behind us all the time, and thatfoot that's behind us is
generating our walk.
It's a little bit like a paddlethat is the paddle goes back,
the canoe goes forward. You justdon't put your canoe forward and
expect the canoe to go forward.The
Wendy (23:32):
That's an excellent distinction. Yeah.
Bruce (23:34):
I'll tell you another myth. Actually, there's so many.
People have this idea that towalk with vitality, you need to
use a lot of effort. But,actually, that just tires you
out to use a lot of effort.Feels good in the beginning, but
(23:56):
then you get tired.
The secret to walking withvitality is learning how to walk
with less and less effort. So itmost people think, okay. I'm
gonna walk with the vitality,and they they put a lot of
pressure on the gas pedal. Whatwe do is we teach people how to
take their foot that they don'teven know is on the brake and
(24:17):
take it off the brake. Sothey're that they're not working
against themselves walking.
Wendy (24:24):
Right. Okay.
Bruce (24:25):
So they're taking away everything that interferes with
their walking. So it's moreabout learning to let go of all
the excessive things we do andall the tensions we hold in our
body So that when once you learnthe biomechanics of walking and
you're not interfering with yourbody, it's just so easy. Mhmm.
(24:49):
Ridiculously easy. And then it'sout of the ease and the comfort
of walking where you generatevitality.
Wendy (24:57):
Okay. So how would you describe vitality?
Bruce (25:00):
Well, vitality is is when you're receiving energy the
moment you're expending it. Soit's like when we when we do
something and we are having agreat time doing it and we're
excited and we're energized byit, we're receiving energy the
(25:22):
moment even though we're doingsomething and we're expending
energy. We're receivingsomething, and it's giving us
energy. You see? So if you don'tknow how to walk well and you're
laboring to walk, you just gettired.
So you're expending energy, butyou're not receiving energy. So
(25:42):
then you don't get you don'texperience vitality. There's
tremendous power that one canreceive from the ground if you
know how to receive it. But ifyou don't know how to relate to
the ground, you're not gonna getthat power. There's enormous
amount of energy that you canget through breathing.
But if you don't know how tobreathe well, you're not going
(26:03):
to get it. So it's learning howto receive energy as you are
expending it. It would be likedriving a car that is has solar
panels all over it. And whileyou're driving it, your energy
is coming in and charging youback up simultaneously. And we
(26:23):
all have experienced that whenwe're doing some you hear when I
was a kid, I used to dance toMotown music.
And you you hear some greatmusic, and you're dancing it.
And you you're using a lot ofenergy, but you finish the dance
and you feel
Wendy (26:38):
Fired up.
Bruce (26:38):
Fired up. Right? Yeah. Now that's Exactly. That's
vitality.
Wendy (26:42):
Okay.
Bruce (26:43):
Okay?
Wendy (26:44):
That's a great distinction too. Alright. So is
there a way you can give, like,a little hint as to what proper
I'm just imagining how hard itwas for you guys to describe
this in words. Now that we'retalking about it, I'm like, oh,
(27:06):
this is actually really complexcomplex thing to describe. But
can you give, like, a littletaste or a little hint of how to
properly connect your foot tothe earth?
Bruce (27:19):
Yeah. I can. But to tell you about the words, language is
very, very important when itcomes to education because we
think in language. And, also, wethink in images, and images are
very important when it comes tolearning movement, particularly.
But because I've been a teachersince teaching movement since I
was 12, and I'm 73, I've had towrestle with language.
(27:42):
Right? Because I've had to findlanguage that people understand
that make gets them to movewell.
Wendy (27:48):
Right. To translate.
Bruce (27:49):
So at this point in my life, it's not that difficult
for me.
Wendy (27:53):
Okay.
Bruce (27:54):
Because that
Wendy (27:54):
That makes sense.
Bruce (27:55):
You're school looking at
Wendy (27:56):
it for so long.
Bruce (27:57):
However, you know, when you write a book, then you're
and you're you're only usingwords, then you really have to
be precise.
Wendy (28:06):
Exactly. That's my point.
Bruce (28:08):
Yeah. Challenging.
Wendy (28:09):
Yeah. Super challenging.
Bruce (28:10):
Now I can verbally explain to you something you
could start to work with. Acouple things. Well, the first
thing that we do when we startto get people's feet, we want
people's feet to to be reallyrelaxed. Because if they're
(28:30):
really relaxed, they feel theground better, and they interact
with the ground better ifthey're relaxed. Just like 2
people kind of interact betterif they're not nervous and so
on.
Same kind of thing. So how doyou get your feet to relax and
(28:51):
your ankles? Both of those.Really, really So the first
thing we do is we try to getpeople to stop doing everything
they were taught about theirfeet. And and sometimes that's a
lot of things.
Like, if you ask people, they'llsay, well, my mom told me not to
make a lot of noise when I walk,or my dad said walk like a man,
(29:15):
or my dance teacher told me thatthat I should have high arches,
or my Tai Chi teacher said whenI walk, my toes should point
forward. All kinds of weirdthings. So the very first thing
is you say, well, you know, whatwould happen just for now if you
gave all that stuff up? And youjust let your feet come down the
(29:37):
way they want, like, without anyinstruction. Just find out what
they do by themselves.
I said, other animals, no onetells them what to do with their
feet. They just do whatever theydo. No one tells a little kid
what to you know, a baby who'slearning how to walk, what to do
with their feet. The babyfigures it out. They it's it's
woven into our DNA.
(29:59):
So what would happen if you justlet your feet come down the way
they want? Well, already, thingschange radically when people
give up all the stuff they weretaught to do with their feet.
That's the first step. It's justlet
Wendy (30:12):
you No pun intended.
Bruce (30:14):
No pun intended. So it's like your feet come down the way
they want, assuming that yourfeet know better than you do it
when it comes to this. Then thenext thing we we have to get
people to do is to let go ofsomething they don't even know
they're doing, which is bracing,tensing up their feet before
(30:36):
they touch the ground. So peopledon't realize they do it, but
they actually most people Imean, most adults, like 95%,
tighten their feet, brace theirfeet just before the moment of
impact as if that making thefoot harder is going to protect
(31:00):
it from hitting the ground.Right.
Just the way you would if youthought you were gonna a car
There's
Wendy (31:08):
a threat of some sort. Some kind
Bruce (31:10):
of threat, like a punch for for impact, a brace for
impact. We don't know we'redoing it. So then we get people
to experiment. We just say,well, what would happen if if
you realize, oh, there's noreason for me to brace for
impact? I mean, my feet aredesigned to protect themselves
without tightening up.
(31:32):
I mean, maybe there isn't anyreason I have to do that. Maybe
I can just leave my feet soft.Right? And maybe I can just
leave my ankles loose. Maybe Idon't need to tighten my ankles.
Right? And so we just startgetting people to think this
way, and it's almost like theirthe tension in their feet start
(31:58):
melting a bit. The tension fallsaway.
Wendy (32:02):
Makes sense. Yeah.
Bruce (32:03):
It's almost like people's feet are like overinflated
tires. They're they're and youtake a little air out of the
tire, and suddenly the tractionis better.
Wendy (32:14):
That's a great example.
Bruce (32:15):
And then right away, the interaction changes, and people
are walking differently. And sothat's where that's where it
starts. Now let me say one morething about that is one of the
ways so some people, you justspeak about it in language, and
they they get it. And somepeople, they don't quite get it
(32:35):
that way. They start working toohard at it.
And then you say, well, listen.It's so simple. Just imagine
that your feet are like reallybig bear feet, like a big
grizzly bear or a big polarbear. I love polar bear feet.
Right?
They're, like, 12 inches wide.They're so soft and padded, and
(33:01):
they're furry, and they'rewebbed. Polar bears can swim for
100 of miles. They're just theperfect feet. So you get a
person being like a child andjust even you can do it even
just sitting in your chair.
You can just imagine that yourfeet are growing, right, like a
movie, like, you know, thatyou're turning into a bear, and
(33:24):
your your feet are gettingreally big. Right? And then all
those qualities start to happenwithout having to analyze it.
That just starts happening. It'sall built into the image.
And then you have a person walk,imagining they have great big
polar bear feet or grizzly bearfeet, and there it is.
Wendy (33:44):
Game changer.
Bruce (33:45):
Game changer. So that's the very beginning of how we
teach people. And and, you know,it's it's interesting. But, you
know, when I was a youngerteacher, I mean, I had studied
anatomy, kinesiology, and I wasa graduate student, and I
studied all that stuff. And Ihad very sophisticated
vocabulary.
(34:05):
I could I could impress peoplewith what I knew. But now at 73,
I don't use that materialbecause I'm interested in the
results. Right? And I wanna beable to teach an 8 year old or
an 83 year old. And I wanteveryone to be able to get it,
and I want people to get itquickly.
(34:26):
And I know how to do that now,but that's because I've been
working on it for 63 years.
Wendy (34:32):
Right. Right. You have a bit of experience there.
Experience. And you've learned awhole bunch
Bruce (34:38):
in
Wendy (34:38):
the process. Yeah. And so the other stuff is extraneous.
Right?
Bruce (34:41):
Yeah. It's extraneous. It's not I I maybe won't come
off as intelligent, but it's notthat it's not that important at
this point.
Wendy (34:50):
Well, that's to suggest that there's not much
intelligence in what you'resaying today, which is not true.
Bruce (34:57):
Well, that's true. There's a tremendous amount of
intelligence. It's very,
Wendy (35:01):
And logic.
Bruce (35:02):
It's very simplified and distilled intelligence. And you
know what it is? It's veryevolved pedagogy. And it just
happens that when your pedagogywhen you really understand
something very, very deeply, youcan explain it simply.
Wendy (35:20):
And the way you come across because of that is with a
degree of confidence about it.So it's like, I know this
because I've experienced it, andI've witnessed many, many other
people. Yeah. Transform becauseof That's right. These
practices.
Bruce (35:36):
That's right. I am confident about it because I've
worked in person in 22 countrieswith, oh, at least 15,000
people. So over many years,decades.
Wendy (35:49):
It's a lot of feet. Yeah.
Bruce (35:50):
It's a lot of feet. And and and a lot of wonderful
people, I must say. I feel soprivileged. But it's a huge
longitudinal study. Right?
Because over those years, you'veyou you try things. You just
say, oh, no. That doesn't work.Oh, that works. After several
decades, you start to puttogether everything that works.
(36:14):
And that's how you develop a amethodology.
Wendy (36:17):
Makes perfect sense. Yeah. Teaching can do that.
Right? If you're you're havingto find all these different ways
to present information and youget a knack for it over time.
Yeah. Which is so cool. So, say,we're walking like a bear. Does
that automatically affect howwe're breathing, or are there
ways in which we need to adjustour breathing consciously?
Bruce (36:39):
Both. Both. Everything affects everything. That's
because we just have one body,and all the systems are are
intertwined. They don't workindependently.
So so when you get somethingreally good happening, really
natural happening in one part ofthe body, the whole it's like
like a community. So every partof the body sort of pick starts
(37:04):
picking it up. And then, again,you at some point, you reach a
critical mass. You make enoughchanges in the body, and you
reach critical mass, and thewhole body just changes. And
then that's where the comfortand vitality starts clicking in.
That said, it helps to study allthe parts and how they work, and
(37:27):
then you need to put it all backtogether again.
Wendy (37:30):
You're reminding me of my time in martial arts of how many
different things you have toattend to at the same time in
order to execute, for example, astrike really well? Or
Bruce (37:41):
Yes. Yes. Eventually, it integrates.
Wendy (37:44):
And it starts with your feet.
Bruce (37:45):
It does. So certainly in walking. So so, like, for
instance, we spend a good bit oftime talking about the arm
structure, and you would think,well, what does that have to do
with walking? But, actually, thearms have a great deal to do
with walking because if the armstructure, which includes your
clavicles and your scapula, arewaiting down on your ribs. Your
(38:12):
upper your ribs go that's verytop of your ribs go above your
clavicles, and your lungs areall the way up there as well as
all the way
Wendy (38:20):
Lungs are huge. Yeah.
Bruce (38:22):
Huge. Right? So if your arm structure is impeding upon
your torso, your your ribs, youdon't breathe as well. And,
also, if your arms are kind ofdead and hanging like dead
ropes, they don't participate inyour walk, and they need to.
Every part of your body walkingis the largest movement we can
(38:46):
make in our body.
If you walk well, every part ofyour body is moving inside and
out. All your organs. Right? Allof your legs, your pelvis, your
ribs, your spine, your arms,everything. So it's a huge
movement.
And if you learn to to make thatmovement effortlessly and in a
(39:08):
way that's really organicallyand logically organized, it's
just the best thing you can dofor yourself.
Wendy (39:15):
So it sounds like you just have to put in a little a
little bit training. Effort andtraining and then, of course,
attending to paying attention toYeah. Becoming aware of your
body.
Bruce (39:25):
Yeah. But the good news the good news is that that is
fun. That is my idea of a goodtime because, you know, most
people say, oh, no.
Wendy (39:34):
Sounds like a lot
Bruce (39:35):
of work. But, no, I say, hey. I I'm gonna learn something
new. And Michael and I make itso much fun
Wendy (39:42):
You do.
Bruce (39:43):
That it's not an effort. And then it's it's so you get
the reward so quickly that
Wendy (39:49):
It propels you forward.
Bruce (39:51):
Yeah. It's just like, oh, wow. This is feeling really
good. And so it reinforcesitself. Yeah.
So it's not a it's not a task.We're just teaching you how to
do something that's really fun,and we're teaching you how to do
it really well.
Wendy (40:04):
I think that's a great reframe and an important one. I
was just talking with a clientthe other day about a technique,
and the first thing they said isthat sounds like a lot of work.
So, clearly, I thought I made itsound fun, but, clearly, I
didn't. But it's interesting howthere's an avoidance of
something that seems like a lotof work even if it's gonna help
(40:27):
us
Bruce (40:28):
Yeah. A
Wendy (40:29):
little bit. Yeah. But the book, there's a a whole bunch of
creative processes in here thatyou're inviting folks to try and
experiment with.
Bruce (40:37):
Yeah.
Wendy (40:38):
What you're sharing is a lovely taste of maybe, like, a
little tease that people canstart doing on their own. And
then if they notice, which I'mhoping they will, they notice
that walking like a bear isactually fun and does make
walking feel different and moreinviting, then they will get
(41:00):
your book so that they can learnmore.
Bruce (41:03):
Yeah. It's not that we want people to walk like a bear.
It's that we want people toimagine playfully imagine
certain things that allow peopleto walk in a more human way.
Walk That's
Wendy (41:18):
a good catch.
Bruce (41:19):
Yeah. So we're not not imitating walking like a bear.
Wendy (41:22):
No. That would look ridiculous.
Bruce (41:23):
Even though bears can walk very well just on their
hind legs because they have thesame foot structure that we
have. Their implanted grace.
Wendy (41:32):
Okay.
Bruce (41:32):
Yeah. But the other thing that that I wanted to just touch
on before we we stop ourinterview is there are 2 other
kinds of walking besidestransportational walking and
inspirational walking. We alsotalk about walking shoulder to
shoulder. And this is veryimportant for us because life is
(41:55):
with people. Abraham Heschelsaid, existence is coexistence.
That's a little bit like when Isay there are no actions.
There's no interactions. Thereare no individuals. There's just
people being together. We can'tlive without other people.
Wendy (42:11):
Very true.
Bruce (42:11):
So how does that fit in with walking? Well, there are
lots of walking groups in theworld, and we we're hoping to
start walking well groups.That's one of our projects. So
learning to walk shoulder toshoulder and talking to each
other in real physicalthree-dimensional life is
(42:34):
something that we'd like tobring back. We'd like to get
people doing more of that.
When I talk to my son, sometimeswhen we're talking face to face,
we run into a bit of tension.But if I say to my son, Noah,
hey, Noah. Let's go for a walk.We can talk for hours. Right?
There's something about just thewalking togethers, finding a
(42:58):
timing, walking in the samedirection, walking out in
nature. It's really a good thingto do. So we write a lot about
that. And then the part of thebook that I think Michael and I
love the most has to do withwalking for positive change,
what we sometimes call walkingfor transformation. Because
(43:21):
there's a there's a connectionto to spiritual development and
spiritual life in relation towalking because, like, there are
pilgrimages that happen all overthe world Yeah.
Inside of all differentreligions. There's a reason why
they they do that walking andnot driving. There's a reason
why they walk. And Gandhi didthe famous salt march to the sea
(43:48):
and the making of salt. Heliberated the entire country
through walking.
We use walking for all kinds ofreasons that are political and
spiritual. So we write aboutthis a lot, and it just shows
how elemental and powerfulwalking is for humans and how
(44:14):
all the different ways we canuse it to reduce suffering and
elevate joy in the world. That'swhat Michael and I are after.
Wendy (44:25):
And it's such a rudimentary thing.
Bruce (44:28):
It's so rudimentary. It's so basic.
Wendy (44:31):
One of the things that really stood out to me in your
book is the section on sittingbecause I think that has become
epidemic. Right? Is that so manyof us, myself included, I have
to sit for a living in a lot ofinstances.
Bruce (44:45):
Yes. Yes. Well, you know, I sit 5 or 6 hours a day because
I'm a writer and a photographer,and I run a community, and I
have people all over the world Ihave to talk to. But I feel
great when I sit because I knowhow to sit well, because
something I've learned. Right?
And and there's a there's a verystrong connection between
(45:09):
sitting, standing, and walking.Because the way we sit in our
bodies, in the way our spine,pelvis, rib cage, and head are
organized in sitting is the waythey're going to be organized
when we stand is the way they'regonna be organized when we walk.
(45:34):
So if you notice little kids,when they're learning to walk,
they first have to learn how tosit.
Wendy (45:41):
Yep.
Bruce (45:41):
You can't learn to stand until you know how to sit, and
you can't learn to walk untilyou know how to stand. And
there's an organic logic tothat. And so for humans to learn
to walk well, just like babieslearn to walk well but we have
to relearn how to walk well. Yousee? Because we have all kinds
(46:02):
of things we do that get in theway of walking well.
Wendy (46:05):
Yes.
Bruce (46:07):
We have to relearn how to walk well. But to relearn how to
walk well, you have to learn howto stand well. And to re relearn
how to stand well, you have torelearn how to sit well. They're
really all one subject. Andthat's why, you know, people ask
Michael and I, why are youwriting about about sitting and
standing in a book that's aboutwalking?
Well, that's why.
Wendy (46:28):
Okay. So let me also just observe out loud that during
this entire conversation, Brucehas sat very upright. His
shoulders are square, and I amlike the shape of an s. Like, my
(46:48):
spine is curled. My leg is up.
I mean Yeah. So
Bruce (46:53):
Well, I I sit at 73 years old. I kind of sit like a child
that's 4 years old. But that'sbecause not that I'm sitting
correctly, but it's that I'verecovered the natural way to sit
that is still in there. It's amatter of uncovering it and
going back to it's what I callthe animal body. Humans are
(47:17):
animals.
Wendy (47:18):
Yes. We are.
Bruce (47:18):
And, yeah, in animals, no one educates an animal how to
move or how to sit or how tostand.
Wendy (47:25):
It's innate. Yeah.
Bruce (47:27):
Right? They just know it's it's hardwired. It is in
humans too. Mhmm. But but wesuperimpose cultural ideas and
gender ideas onto, our naturalbodies, then we we lose touch
with with the natural way tomove.
(47:48):
So what I've done is just spentI haven't taught myself the
right way to move. I've gottenrid of all the stuff or most of
the stuff that interferes withthe natural way to move. And
then the natural way to move isjust there. That's a lot of what
the Alexander technique isabout. So Michael and I are we
(48:09):
started studying that in ourearly twenties.
Wendy (48:12):
Do you wanna touch on just really briefly what that is
for people who don't know whatthe Alexander technique is?
Bruce (48:19):
Well, I can do that. It's an approach that this man, FM
Alexander, evolved way back inthe late 1800, he was a a man
that was an actor, had a certainamount of anxiety, fear,
overefforting in his way ofacting, and it resulted in his
(48:42):
losing his voice. And he setabout looking at what he was
doing. And in the process offiguring out this vocal issue,
he found his whole bodyorganizing itself in a different
way. And then he realized thatthis like, kind of every system
(49:05):
is connected to every system,And people got very interested
in what he was figuring outabout the human body and human
movement and human functioning.
And a lot of doctors gotinterested. So he he moved to
London. He spent the rest of hislife teaching his work. He
figured out a fantastic way ofusing his hands that helped
(49:30):
people to let go of all thisinterference. And the result was
people just moved beautifully,just naturally.
It's beautiful work. So Michaeland I were very drawn to it. But
Michael and I were drawn to alot of beautiful disciplines,
aikido, taijichuan, Japanese teaceremony, kyuto, a lot of Asian
(49:55):
arts. Michael and I are bothdrawn to a lot of Asian arts
because a lot of Asian arts havethought about the relationship
between the body and spirituallife more than western
disciplines. Yes.
But we teach all that material,much of that material, but we we
translate it into western lifeand western thinking. Yeah. So
(50:20):
people can get it. So it'sdoesn't sound esoteric.
Wendy (50:24):
Right. So you're borrowing from all these
different disciplines
Bruce (50:27):
Yes.
Wendy (50:27):
To teach people how to walk well.
Bruce (50:30):
Yeah. How to move naturally. Yes.
Wendy (50:33):
Alright. So after we finish, I am going to go on my
Lucid Path Wellness employeewellness walk, which is which is
just me because I am my onlyemployee.
Bruce (50:47):
I understand
Wendy (50:48):
that. And practice some of these
Bruce (50:51):
Great.
Wendy (50:51):
These, techniques that you have graciously shared. And
I am really appreciative of youcoming on and chatting with me
and, doing a really good job ofdescribing very kind of abstract
concepts. Thank you very muchfor doing that.
Bruce (51:10):
My pleasure.
Wendy (51:11):
And if people wanna learn more about Mhmm. About you, your
work
Bruce (51:18):
Yeah.
Wendy (51:19):
Are you teaching online classes regularly?
Bruce (51:22):
Yes. I'll I'll tell you. It's really simple.
Wendy (51:24):
Okay.
Bruce (51:24):
Go to walkingwell.com because we didn't put
illustrations in this bookintentionally. Because in this
day and age, you can hook a bookup to a website, and you can
give all the illustrations andall the videos. And so we have
(51:45):
put together a website that isso supportive of of what you're
learning in the book. Justfantastic videos on walking, on
breathing, on all kinds ofthings. So and then Oh.
Once you're walking well
Wendy (52:02):
I didn't even look at that.
Bruce (52:03):
Yeah. Once you're on walkingwell.com, you can buy the
book from there. And we also areoffering our a 3 hour course
that Michael and I are gonnateach online live for $75. We're
keeping it as inexpensive aspossible.
Wendy (52:20):
That's incredible. Yeah.
Bruce (52:21):
First one is on November 2nd. So people who whether
you've read the book or not, youcan jump on to the course. You
can meet me. You can meetMichael. You can get experience
how we teach.
And I also teach 9 day, veryimmersion walking as a way of
(52:42):
life retreats in Northern NewMexico. I've I've done 3 of them
this summer. I have one more todo in October. If you wanna go
deeply into this material,that's the way to to do it.
Wendy (52:57):
Very cool. And will you be doing the, live course every
so often?
Bruce (53:03):
We're gonna do it every month.
Wendy (53:04):
Oh, oh, okay. Alright. Because this will be evergreen
once it's live, and so peoplewill
Bruce (53:11):
Oh, great.
Wendy (53:11):
Be hearing it at different times.
Bruce (53:14):
Yes. Every month.
Wendy (53:15):
Well, that's awesome and incredibly helpful, I imagine.
Bruce (53:19):
Yeah.
Wendy (53:20):
Alright, sir. So I will put a link to walkingwell.com in
the show notes. And again, thankyou so much for coming up.
Bruce (53:30):
My great pleasure.
Wendy (53:32):
You're ready to try walking barefoot? Or maybe I
should say bare footed. That waslame too. Sorry. To learn more
about how to walk well, pleasevisit walking well.com.
Thank you for joining me. I hopethe coming year is as pleasant
and drama free as possible foryou. I'll be back in a few weeks
(53:55):
with a fun new episode exploringintuition, but you probably
already knew that. Also lame.Oh, my.
Until next time.
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