The Critical State of Thinking with Dr Janine Oliver

This seems like one of the more important episodes I’ve released since the podcast started back in 2018. My guest Dr Janine Oliver is a clinical psychologist who has expertise in social media, reality TV, and critical thinking. In this episode we discuss her research, its implications and practical ways to take care of your amazingly resilient brain. 

Janine is a Cognitive Psychologist and Licensed Clinical Social Worker who, in addition to working with clients in her Philadelphia area practice, offers professional presentations and specialized consulting regarding her research. She is also the author of the book The Anxiety Cure: Practical DRUG-FREE Ways to RE-WIRE Your Brain.

In this episode, Janine discusses:

• Her background and what inspired her research
• What critical thinking is
• Mirror neurons
• The impact of regular social media and reality TV exposure
• Neuroplasticity
• Cultural impact
• Real world examples of the impact
• Ages effected 
• Stages of brain development
• Practical solutions
• Dopamine and human connection
• Boredom
• (And then wendy pretends she knows what she’s talking about re: consciousness!)

Janine’s website

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Episode Transcript

Wendy (00:02):
This is Wendy Halley, and you're listening to Lucid Cafe.

(00:31):
And we're back with anotherdefinitely thought provoking
episode of Lucid Cafe that I'mreally excited to share with
you. But before we dive in, oneof the best ways to connect with
personal power when you'refeeling powerless is to become
your own shaman. And now you cando that from the comfort of your

(00:51):
own home by enrolling in theBecome Your Own Shaman online
course. It's a self pacedexperiential introductory course
that gives you the groundwork tostart a personal shamanic
practice.
We'll explore subjects like thenature of reality, the nature of
the self and how it relates toconsciousness, and you'll learn
the mechanics of how to safelyand easily enter shamanic trance

(01:14):
state using sound. Then we'lldive into some fundamental
experiential exercisesintroducing you to the shamanic
realms and two of your personalspirit helpers. Are you ready to
take the first step towardbecoming your own shaman? Visit
lucidpathwellness.com or use thelink in the show notes to enroll

(01:34):
and start your journey towarddeepening your connection to the
unseen world and yourself. Okay.
Today's episode strikes me as areally important one. If you're
listening to this podcast,there's a good chance that
you're interested in being thehealthiest, most balanced, and
best version of yourself. Sowhat if you found out that you

(01:57):
were possibly engaged in anactivity that was causing you
harm? And what if that activityhad a detrimental effect on your
brain and its ability toregulate emotional reactions and
engage in critical thinking,especially during a time like
we're in where we really kindaneed our wits about us. My
guest, Doctor.

(02:17):
Janine Oliver, is a clinicalpsychologist who has expertise
in social media, reality TV, andcritical thinking. I really
enjoyed my conversation withJanine and so appreciate her
down to earth, honest way oftalking about stuff that most of
us probably don't really wannatalk about or maybe even look

(02:39):
at. In this episode, we discusswhat her research uncovered
about the impact social mediaand reality TV has on our brains
and how, with some adjustments,you can reverse that impact.
Janine is a cognitivepsychologist and licensed
clinical social worker who, inaddition to working with clients

(03:00):
in her Philadelphia areapractice, offers professional
presentations and specializedconsulting regarding her
research. She's also the authorof the book The Practical Drug
Free Ways to Rewire Your Brain,which we did not discuss in our
conversation because I was notaware that she wrote this book

(03:22):
until after we met.
I never said I was professional.Now you have even more proof.
And, oh, yeah. One more thingthat's worth mentioning since I
referenced it in this interview.It's probably a good time to
announce that I have a new bookcoming out at the May.

(03:42):
It's called Raven's Daughter.I've gone more mainstream with
this book. It's speculativefiction. It's a combination of
fantasy and near future sci fiabout a mind virus of deception.
It's definitely fiction!
More details to come, but in themeantime, please enjoy my

(04:05):
conversation with Doctor JanineOliver. Janine, thank you so
much for joining me.

Janine (04:14):
Thank you so much, Wendy. Thanks for having me.

Wendy (04:16):
Yeah. You bet.

Janine (04:17):
Glad to be here.

Wendy (04:18):
I am really psyched you're here. Let's just give a
little background.
So I attended a webinar forcontinuing education that you
facilitated, that you provided.And the topic was so intriguing.
I was thinking as you werechatting during those eight
hours or however long it was, itfelt like felt like a long time.

(04:39):
It's a long day. Can't imaginewhat it's like to present for
that long.
But I was thinking how thisinformation that you researched
needs to get out there. I wasthinking that interviewing you,
if you were up for it, would bea great way to share this
information beyond the clinicalworld.

Janine (05:00):
Yes. Right, right. I appreciate that. I really do.
Yeah, I agree.

Wendy (05:06):
So, why don't we start with... why don't you just give
me a little bit of yourbackground, like what you do,
how you practice, what yourresearch has been about?

Janine (05:16):
Sure, sure. Yeah, absolutely. Again, thanks for
having me. And I appreciate theinterest. I really do.
I find that there are a lot ofpeople that are interested in
the topic, and I'll get intothat in a moment. But first, a
little bit of background. So, Istarted out my professional
career as a social worker. I wasalways interested in advocacy

(05:38):
and I was interested in theadvocacy element of helping
people. And I also wanted to bea therapist.
So, I began, like I said,getting my master's in social
work with a combination ofcommunity social work and direct
practice. And I really enjoyedit. And then I took a short

(06:01):
hiatus and traveled around alittle bit, not too too much in
the American way of life, butI'd always wanted to travel and
thought that if I didn't do itwhen I was younger, I might not
do it. So I traveled to Europe,I traveled to Greece, and that's
just been something that I hadalways wanted to do. And I

(06:22):
didn't really have a chance atyoung.
So, this is my mid-20s and Ikind of did the Bohemia thing,
which was really, really goodand interesting. I bet. Yeah, it
was great. I wanted to learnabout not only other cultures,
but I wanted to learn about howmy culture looked to other
cultures. So from the outsidein.

(06:44):
So just a shift in perspective,so.

Wendy (06:46):
I bet it's a great I actually haven't traveled in
that way.
I've never had a passport. Justhaven't had the opportunity to
do a lot of travel, but Yeah. Ican't imagine how mind expanding
and mind shifting it must be tobe immersed in another culture.

Janine (07:04):
Well, for some reason, and that that is like a
everybody kinda has a a drive,like an inner desire, I think.
And it had been it was somethingthat I had always wanted to do.
My my one brother traveled, hewas in the Air Force, and I
remember him coming home allthrough, and he's older, he's

(07:24):
older than me, he'ssignificantly older, and I was
very young, and I would rememberhim coming home from his travels
with all of these like artifactsit seemed. Like one time he came
home with wooden shoes. Anothertime he came home with, yeah,
and I'm like wooden shoes?
That's awesome. Like where didhe get going?

Wendy (07:42):
What's that about? Yeah.

Janine (07:43):
Right. Another time we came home with, like just this
beautiful, beautiful coloredglass from Italy, these glasses
for our mother. And so it just,maybe that was the impetus for
the inner curiosity, but it hadbeen something that I had always
wanted to do and kind of feltstifled, although happy that I

(08:05):
was in college, but kind of feltstifled because I knew I needed
to finish. So then I grabbed theopportunity when I graduated and
I just went. I got my passportand I went and didn't have a lot
of money, college studentsituation.
And I just, yeah, I just wentalone, which scared my mother.

(08:28):
But

Wendy (08:29):
anyway, yeah. Mean, I think we all have that kind of
bravado when we're in ourtwenties.

Janine (08:35):
Yeah. I wish I'd lost it a little, but Yeah, you're right
though. You're right. And I lovethat about youth. I love that,
you know, there's like thisinvincibility that we often
which is really cool.

Wendy (08:53):
World is very wooster.

Janine (08:54):
Yeah, yeah. And I say that frequently to people at
that age and beyond. So then Icame back and I worked in the
field of social work and Idecided, and I really enjoyed
that as well. I worked in fostercare system. I worked eventually

(09:16):
in direct practice, but then Istill had, you know, just a
really driving curiosity and alove of learning that had, that
I'd always had from very young.
I can remember my father takingme to the library before
kindergarten. So it was justthis magical place where
everything was small like me.Even some of the books were

(09:39):
small like the little BeatrixPotter.

Wendy (09:41):
Doctor. Yeah.

Janine (09:42):
So, it was fascinating. So, then I decided to go back to
school and pursue my doctoratein psychology. And so, then I
really stepped up the directpractice work and, you know,
continued along that path. Andthat's how I ended up
researching the topic that youended up seeing, which I'm

(10:02):
really grateful for, which wasreality television, social
media, and its effect oncritical thinking ability. And
then here we are.
Kind of short summation, butYeah.

Wendy (10:14):
No. That's Yeah. Me, you were talking about the elephant
in the middle of the room, whatyour research uncovered. Mhmm.
The phrase critical thinking.
Yeah. And I was like Yeah. Shesaid it.

Janine (10:31):
I'm telling you, it's taking some pits.

Wendy (10:35):
I can imagine because it's like

Janine (10:38):
It's hurting.

Wendy (10:39):
So, your research, talk a little bit about your and like
what, what group you studied andage.

Janine (10:47):
Yeah, sure. Yeah, absolutely. So I had always been
glad, like I had said before,like this love of learning had
been something. And in mycollege days, that was
something, like I can rememberbeing in the classroom and just
wanting to be the smartestperson in the room and wanting

(11:09):
that and that being like apretty common thread. And I'm
not saying that it still is notpresent in colleges because I
also teach at a local college.
I'm a psychology professorthere, which I love. So it's not
completely gone. I don't want topaint this dire picture, but
it's taken a hit as we saidbefore. And so I could just

(11:30):
remember wanting to be thesmartest person, you know,
wanting to learn and absorb theknowledge that these professors
had, the other students in theroom and everything. So there's
just this love of learning thatI appreciated and wanted.
And I can remember just thisdownturn of it, okay? Downturn

(11:51):
of the curiosity, downturn ofjust acceptance.

Wendy (11:54):
Of your own?

Janine (11:55):
Just noticing around me and feeling like, feeling out of
place. Like am I, what'shappening here?

Wendy (12:03):
Is this amongst your peers or as your team?

Janine (12:06):
Amongst my peers. Yeah, amongst my peers and noticing
like a down, instead of anuptick, a down turn. And then I
remember what started mycuriosity and the impetus for my
research. I remember looking,because we have to pick a topic
of course, and we have to find agap in available information.

Wendy (12:27):
Doctor. Was this for your doctoral dissertation?

Janine (12:29):
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Have to, people have studied critical
thinking for a long time, butyou have to find something that
hasn't been studied or pick aniche and then study that to
exhaustion. Or at least that'swhat it feels like.

Wendy (12:44):
Yeah, I bet.

Janine (12:45):
Yeah, yeah. I often compare it to feeling like
sitting in a tub in the middleof the ocean. At times, that's
how it feels. We're in gradschool, you know, we're
together.

Wendy (12:57):
That sounds like a lot of fun. Yeah.

Janine (13:01):
In some ways, yeah. It really calls upon all kinds of
reserves that you didn't realizeyou had.

Wendy (13:07):
Just as a side note, when I was in graduate school,
getting my master's, I didn'tget a doctoral degree, but I was
a TA for one of the professorsto try to help pay for some of
my very expensive tuition.Right. And edited dissertations
for the doctoral students forAPA Yeah.

Janine (13:27):
No, you could do

Wendy (13:28):
And I would get these tomes that I would have to bring
home and I would have to flagall of the heading errors and
all of formatting errors and allthe style errors.

Janine (13:38):
Well, take my hat off to you. Wow. You earned your money.

Wendy (13:42):
But just the amount of work that went into each
dissertation, I was like, Ican't, yeah, anyway, but that's
just my little Yeah,

Janine (13:49):
it a lot and deep appreciation for that. Yeah,
thank you. And myself too. And Ijust, right. So that's, you have
to love reading a lot, diggingdeep, and you have to love your
topic.
And so when I was thinking aboutwhat I wanted to research, I
wanted to do something withthinking and critical thinking.

(14:12):
And I thought back to when Ifirst entered college at 18,
this was right around the time Igrew up watching MTV, music
television. Me too, yep. And Ithink we all, yeah, kind of, you
know, our age. And what was theother?
VH1. And there was actuallymusic on.

Wendy (14:27):
Yeah, back when they had videos, yeah.

Janine (14:29):
Right, and I used to look

Wendy (14:30):
forward I saw the inaugural MTV, like when it
first came live, I rememberwatching Yeah.

Janine (14:37):
Oh my god. Was like 85

Wendy (14:40):
I think or something like that.

Janine (14:41):
Right. Right. And I remember this show that came
out, Real World.

Wendy (14:48):
Yeah.

Janine (14:48):
Right? This reality show. And I'm like, I'm like,
what? What is this? This isnever gonna catch up.
What did I read that wrong?

Wendy (14:58):
Famous last words.

Janine (15:01):
Right. And I just thought this this is impossible.
How could people? And there wasa lot of good that was done on
that show. Like I'm not evendetracting from that.
Like they talked about difficulttopics. They talked about
homosexuality at a time when itwas, there was a lot of fear.
Right. They talked about, and itkind of organically happened,

(15:22):
which I thought was good andcompelling, but it slowly kind
of disintegrated into thisperson shouldn't wear pink. And
it just kind of took a turn thatI didn't expect.
And then and Cops was anotherreality TV show. I just couldn't
believe the myopic, like thereally narrow perspective and

(15:44):
how it did, I thought it wasdoing more harm than good, a
show like that. So I just, I, Iknew that I wanted to research
that. I knew I wanted to findout why I was so like wrong in
my initial assessment that, thatthis is gonna just never take
hold. I felt like Jackie Gleasonwhen he assessed Elvis.

(16:05):
Oh, he'll never get famous. Iwas like, wow. Okay. Wrong.

Wendy (16:09):
Didn't know Jackie Gleason said that about him.

Janine (16:12):
He did. Can you believe him? Anyway, both talented
people, both talented people.But obviously, Elvis, everybody
knows his name. So, yeah, so Iknew I wanted to look deeper
into that and I wanted to findout if there was a connection.
And I, of course, media wasanother venue that had become so

(16:33):
popular, and I wanted to usethat as another corollary in the
overall assessment. So that'show I ended up researching it.

Wendy (16:40):
Okay. Before we get to your findings, I think it would
be helpful for, maybe this isnot necessary, but I think it
would be helpful to define whatcritical thinking is, especially
from your Yeah.

Janine (16:55):
It simply put is just deeper level analysis. It's not
accepting what you read or hearor see at face value. It's
questioning assumptions. It'squestioning the person or entity
that is giving forth theinformation. It's questioning
motives.

(17:15):
So, it's in some is like deeperlevel analysis. Not accepting. I
can remember my father sayinglike, don't accept everything
you hear. Ask questions.

Wendy (17:24):
Doctor. Good advice.

Janine (17:25):
And yeah, and learn with that intent in mind to learn and
to, and have a conversation,have like a dialogue. I feel
like what's happened to that?Like we're doing now, which is
wonderful. But what's happenedto that?

Wendy (17:41):
That's a great question.

Janine (17:43):
We're in our spaces and we don't have, psychologists
talk about, we have to have, weneed to have difficult
conversations that make us,quote, uncomfortable. Yep. You
know?

Wendy (17:55):
It also can bolster connection too, if you think
about it. Like, if you're ableto have a healthy conversation
with someone about a difficulttopic Yeah. It can actually, I
think, increase respect betweenthe people, even if they end up
disagreeing at the end of it.But

Janine (18:13):
Absolutely. And that's that's one of the things that I
feel is so needed right now. Weforget how like we are. It's not
just a great phrase that I sayat the end of yoga, like, we're
more alike than we aredifferent. It's really true.
It's 100% true. And when youbrought that up about

(18:34):
connection, I remember that'swhat Ken Burns does with his
specials. He reminds us howwe're all very similar, how
we've gone through many similarexperiences, and he tells it in
a story format that we can allrelate to. If somebody gives me
a bunch of statistics and, youknow, I'm a fan, not of
statistics, but of talking aboutthem. Yeah, I have to admit

(18:56):
that's, yeah.

Wendy (18:57):
Fun at cocktail That's true.

Janine (19:01):
Why I don't get invited. At any rate. Yeah, so you tell
someone a story though and youwatch their brain. If you look
at, you may be familiar withthese studies, but if you look
at two people and they talk toeach other and they're telling,
one person is telling a story,the neurons link up. There's a
connection there that'sliterally neuron based and brain

(19:25):
based.
And so, you're synced, right?And so, we've kind of lost that.

Wendy (19:30):
Yeah, would you call that empathy?

Janine (19:32):
There is an aspect of it, yes, absolutely. I'm glad
you noticed that. There's, well,without getting too science y
about it, there are mirrorneurons in our brain. And that's
what's responsible for, like, ifyou're watching a scary movie,
you're in that experiencebecause of mirror neurons. It's
the biological basis forempathy.

Wendy (19:52):
Oh, I just got this crazy, crazy ass chill. I can I
take a little side trip for asecond and

Janine (19:59):
watch Absolutely? Let's that

Wendy (20:01):
that chill. So I just finished writing a a novel. It's
speculative fiction.

Janine (20:08):
So it's a little fantasy,

Wendy (20:10):
and it's a near future sci fi. And it's about a mind
virus of deception.

Janine (20:17):
Oh my god. That sounds fascinating. It really does.

Wendy (20:21):
I I it was a bear to write.

Janine (20:25):
Yeah.

Wendy (20:25):
We're editing right now, I describe the virus as having
this sort of silver metallic huelike a mirror.

Janine (20:34):
Okay.

Wendy (20:35):
So that Yeah. One way to see it, my protagonist can see
it, is in the eyes of the personwho's infected. So there's like
a silver sheen in their eyes. Soyou end up seeing yourself in
the eyes of the person. Mhmm.
When they're speaking, deceptionYeah. Then you see yourself in
the deception or you mirror it.I mean, that's like a subtext.

(20:57):
Hopefully, the reader, if I haveany readers of that book when it
comes out.

Janine (21:01):
Course you will. That's a fascinating topic. I would
definitely read it.

Wendy (21:06):
Thank you. Yeah. It's kind of, yeah, it's shape shifty
and a virus needs a host, right?So the story has to fit the
host. Yeah.
Anyway.

Janine (21:16):
So, they can see, right, they can see themselves in their
own practice of, yeah. Wow.

Wendy (21:24):
That's how it travels. That's how it.

Janine (21:27):
From person to person. That's fascinating.

Wendy (21:29):
So there's an entrainment to it.

Janine (21:32):
Mhmm. Well, know, I mean, that is not too far off
the mark neurologicallyspeaking.

Wendy (21:39):
For real?

Janine (21:40):
Yeah. And even there's there's even there's mirror
neurons in the animal kingdomlike whales, dolphins, these
highly sensitive and intelligentcreatures. They really lose
their health if they're not withother species. And they've shown
that. But I mean, it's, it'samazing that there is a

(22:00):
biological, and that is anadaptive trait, right?
So, that ensures the survival ofour species to care about each
other.

Wendy (22:08):
Doctor. Yeah, absolutely. Doctor.

Janine (22:09):
Right. So much so that we say, person that doesn't have
that is said to be moreisolated, more, not as much
isolated, but lacking inempathy. That's like a
pathological. Their brains are alittle different.

Wendy (22:24):
Doctor. Brain disorder.

Janine (22:25):
Doctor. Yeah, yeah. So fascinating.

Wendy (22:28):
Doctor. All right, I took you off topic. So, were talking
about mirror neurons.

Janine (22:33):
Doctor. Yeah.

Wendy (22:34):
Doctor. In relationship to critical thinking.

Janine (22:37):
Doctor. I was talking, I got, yeah, I did kind of sway
over to the mirror neurons, butwe were, I was talking about how
that we've lost connection witheach other. Okay. And like Ken
Burns, for example, he wouldtell a story and that would help
us link each other. Even ifyou're a different ethnicity, a
different political party,you're able to connect on a

(22:59):
human level when someone tells astory, for example, or an
anecdote, right?
And we've kind of lost that ifwe're, if we're so separate in
our own echo chamber, our own AIkind of funnel. Yeah. And we've
forgotten that we are more alikethan we are different. That the
experiences of me here in theEast Coast is not much different

(23:24):
than the middle of the countryand the West of the country and
Guam. Right.
I think it's true what Kennedysaid, like we all cherish our
children's futures, we allbreathe the same air. But the
point that I was talking aboutwith mirror neurons is that when
you tell someone a story andthey're in front of you and
they're engaged in that storyand they're listening actively,

(23:46):
which that's another thing thathas been kind of, that has
decreased is that activelistening, paying attention to
each other, is the brains aresynced. Okay. Which is
fascinating. Yeah.

Wendy (24:00):
Alright.

Janine (24:02):
So we gotta vie for attention. Yeah. You know? We've
gotta vie for it. It's like astruggle a little bit.

Wendy (24:10):
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, this is such rich
territory to me. There's like somany directions we can go in.

Janine (24:18):
Yeah.

Wendy (24:18):
Alright. So your research uncovered that critical
thinking.

Janine (24:24):
It's taken some hits. And there, as it relates to, so
in other words, it's correlated.So just to be clear, it's
connected to it. So it's notcaused by. In other words, it's
connected to the more socialmedia that's consumed, the more

(24:44):
reality television that isconsumed on a regular basis, the
less a person is able to thinkcritically and that rises to a
level of statisticalsignificance, particularly the
reality television, which isinteresting.
Probably because it's been moreof a venue for a longer period
of time than the

Wendy (25:04):
Than social media.

Janine (25:06):
Yeah. Yeah.

Wendy (25:07):
It is kind of like that train wreck thing. You you can't
help but look.

Janine (25:13):
Oh, no. It's true. It hijacks your brain. Like, just
it seizes your brain. It seizesyour attention, weeds everything
out.
It's a perfect distraction.

Wendy (25:22):
Was your research able to uncover what it was about
watching reality TV that hasthat impact? Like what is it
doing to a person or even socialmedia?

Janine (25:33):
Yeah, so when we look at any screen, okay, it changes our
brainwave to an extent. We slipinto a more relaxed brainwave
state that is more receptive. Sowe're receiving, I mean, that's
why they spend so much money onthese commercials during like
high viewing times like theSuper Bowl.

Wendy (25:52):
So, it's like hypnosis?

Janine (25:54):
It is a type it is a type of psych, okay, so I'm a
hypnotherapist too and that, I'mglad you brought that up. It's a
type of light, light trance.

Wendy (26:05):
So it's like suggestive.

Janine (26:06):
Yes, exactly. Yes. A person under hypnosis is, well,
the definition is a focusedstate of awareness where they're
open to suggestion. You're opento suggestion, but that's deep,
deep relaxation. There has to bean induction and all that.
So with these mediums, just thescreen itself, okay, it puts you

(26:31):
into a receptive state where youare more open to suggestion.
Okay. Whatever is beingprogrammed. So this is really
important that people understandexactly, right, because a fish
in water thinks the whole world
is wet. Yeah. A fish in waterthinks the whole world is wet
and everybody's doing it. Soit's ubiquitous and it doesn't

(26:53):
seem like it's a problem, but itis a problem because it's
changing our brains. It'schanging the way we think. It's
changing the way we speak. It'schanging the way we write.
So it's, it's quite huge in itsimpact. And by that, I mean,
like, the mediums that we'retalking about, the social media,
the reality television. And whatthey do is they grab you. They

(27:15):
grab your attention. A lot oftimes they're high conflict and
that engages an ancient part ofyour brain that doesn't think
and reacts.

Wendy (27:24):
That's what I wanted to really get to, right? That more
primitive part of our brainsthat is engaging. And can you
talk about what that entails?Like what that looks like for
any of

Janine (27:36):
us? Sure.

Wendy (27:36):
When that part of us is kind of front and center?

Janine (27:38):
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So, this part of the brain, I
mean, we share with the mostancient animals on earth and
it's a wonderful part of thenervous system. An excellent, it
keeps us safe. It helps us to bearoused.
It helps us to enjoy like blazeand wonderful things. So it's

(28:00):
our emotion center, okay? Butit's also a part of the fight or
flight response. So this ancientpart of the brain, okay, is our
limbic system. It's ouramygdala, okay?
That just means Greek foralmond. It's a tiny almond
shaped part of the brain that isour emotion center, but also
fear. And so when we think thepart of the brain that's being

(28:25):
used is this newer part, thecortex, the part I'm holding my
hand on the top of my head,specifically my forehead, our
frontal lobe area. But ourcortex, the outer layer, the
gray part that's folded in,that's new in terms of human
evolution. It's only like 200 to230,000 years old compared to
the amygdala, which is ancient.

(28:46):
So the amygdala and theprimitive brain will always
overpower the thinking part ofthe brain because it needs to
keep you safe. It needs to,because of survival, have a
greater influence. And when thispart of the brain, when our
brains are being formed, ourenvironment was very different.

(29:07):
It was what was called animmediate return environment.
Like the flood either happenedor it didn't.
The storm either happened or itdidn't, or the animal either got
us or it didn't. It wasimmediate.

Wendy (29:16):
Right.

Janine (29:16):
We didn't have chance to sit around and wait and we're
the descendants of all thosewarriors. So, it's much more
powerful and it literally shutsoff the thinking part.

Wendy (29:28):
So, is that always the case? It's either one or the
other or can they work

Janine (29:32):
in No. They work in conjunction and when you're in a
low level of arousal, okay, youcan see something and it can
spike that ancient part of thebrain and you can get excited.
But normally we have it undercontrol unless there's like an
anxiety disorder of some kind,or even a mood disorder that

(29:55):
goes in the other direction ofdecreased intensity. But it's
still, it's still that part ofthe brain that's involved with
regulation, emotionalregulation. In the, in that
case, then their systems aremore hyper aroused and they have
a harder time extracting out ofthe, out of the fight or flight
response.
But baseline, it works in asymbiosis. The brain is

(30:18):
wonderfully interactive. Butwhen it comes to these mediums,
a hypersensationalized conflict,encouraging conflict like some,
not all of the realitytelevision programming does, and
social media as well, when wetap into that, it doesn't take
long to take us out of thinking,active thinking, and put us into

(30:42):
receptivity and put us intoanger, put us into super funny.
And it's like this emotionalroller coaster where the
thinking part of the brain kindof takes a backseat, kicks its
feet up,

Wendy (30:56):
and just pushes the Goes a short

Janine (30:59):
holiday. Yeah.

Wendy (31:00):
Can you talk about the addictive nature of those kinds
of mediums?

Janine (31:05):
Yes. I'm glad you brought this up, Wendy, because
of the insidious nature of ourphones and social media and
conflict ridden realitytelevision. They are addictive
because they do engage thatprimitive part of the brainstem
and the hindbrain. Okay. Wedon't realize that it's

(31:31):
happening.
If you wake up and the firstthing you look at is your phone
before you do anything else, andyou have to have it with you,
and you well, I think we allkind of panic if we think we
lost our phone. But if there'san intensity, if you find
yourself on your phone, or ifyou find yourself switching from
one medium to another, like I'mnot on my phone, but I'm

(31:53):
watching The Real Housewives ofwhatever, or wherever, and I'm
just involved in a differentkind of conflict ridden medium,
then you're conditioning thathyper vigilant part of your
brain to stay at a moreheightened level at the expense
of other parts of the brain thatthink, that reason, that

(32:15):
discern, okay, that distinguish,that question. So it's
conditioning over time. And sothe brain is plastic. And we
know now, the term isneuroplasticity, and I'm sure
you've heard of it, thatbasically the brain is plastic.
And the neurons change how theytalk to each other based on

(32:37):
experience, based on the thingswe do a lot. So that's the
insidious nature of theaddictive component.

Wendy (32:43):
You're suggesting that because of the addictive nature,
it's actually transforming thewiring of your brain?

Janine (32:51):
Yes. Yes. Studies have shown that if you start doing a
new activity, say it's juggling,right? You just, you pick up
juggling. After two to threedays of practicing this, okay,
the visual centers that detectmotion in your occipital lobe in

(33:12):
the back of your brain change.
Those cortical spaces becomethicker. So, that's very fast to
only two to three days, okay?It's a slight change, but it's
still a change. So, when youthink about the hours and hours
of time, and that's anotherthing, time just slips away.

(33:34):
Mean, what a time suck.
If I go on Reels, for example,which I do sometimes, I say to
myself, okay, I'm going to go onReels. Note the Right. I note
the time. Right? I say, okay,it's whatever, 10:00.
And I say, I'm gonna do it. I'mgonna let myself do it. I'm

(33:54):
gonna let my brain go on vacay,and I'm gonna go on reels. And
of course, you know, you knowwhat you're gonna see because
it's all the filter, right? Yep.
The algorithm. And then I comeout of it. And then I'm like a
half hour older and I haven'taccomplished, you know, what
have I done? Right?

Wendy (34:13):
Yeah. So that's what

Janine (34:13):
I mean.

Wendy (34:13):
And what have you learned? And yeah.

Janine (34:16):
I might've laughed a little and done so on. But
again, that's what I mean. Itslips away because the blood
goes out of this part of thebrain and it goes into a
different part and that's thehook.

Wendy (34:27):
Okay.

Janine (34:28):
It's the hook. We don't realize time just, it slips
away.

Wendy (34:31):
So, the blood goes out of the frontal lobe and into?

Janine (34:36):
That, that happens more if you're upset, right? If
you're, you know the feeling,like if you get, if you see
something online and you'reupset and you're like, I'm going
to pound the keyboard and letthem know and show them
whatever. You're in that moment,right? Right. Where you're
you're doing like a rant orsomething on on whatever social
media and that moment, the theblood does leave the thinking

(35:00):
part, okay?
Because you're upset. And that'swhy it's so hard to control. And
it enters into the ancient part.And then you're in the grip of,
okay, that primitive need forsafety. And you're not
necessarily thinking.
You're not using this part ofthe brain logic and reason.

Wendy (35:19):
Right. So it's not too far a stretch then to look at
the current state of Americanculture and, I mean, you can
also expand out to othercultures because you hear yeah.
Trends and such that this isplaying a role, perhaps, in how

(35:42):
the device is?

Janine (35:43):
Absolutely.

Wendy (35:45):
Okay. It's, I know it's tricky territory to talk about,
but

Janine (35:49):
No, it, it, yeah, 100%. Like, it is very Now, there's
been times, obviously, in ournation's history that we've been
polarized, that we've gonethrough a civil war. I mean,
obviously, there's been timesthat we've been very polarized,
but there is a, there's a levelnow that is added to where trust

(36:14):
and, and fear have really risenand afraid of the other, the
quote other, right? And that,what we were talking about
earlier in the podcast, thatidea that we're more alike than
we are different is all butforgotten. I know.

Wendy (36:34):
It's very clear and sad.

Janine (36:36):
Doctor. Yeah. Yeah. And these these algorithms, okay,
unless there is responsibletechnology, which there is a
much there's a push for that. Idon't know if saw The Social
Dilemma, but that was anexcellent show.

Wendy (36:47):
Tristan Harris is doing a lot of work with that.

Janine (36:50):
Doctor. Right. Responsible. Yeah. Which we
need.
We, we, if nothing to balancethis equation that's so tipped
to, to polarize people to, toget them to not even think
about, like, okay, so you see aR or a D at the end of a name
and then instantly it's like,oh, they suck.

Wendy (37:09):
Yep, exactly. It's just closed. Judgement is made.

Janine (37:13):
Judge and jury and condemn her and all in one. All
in one.

Wendy (37:18):
And you don't even know the person's story. You don't

Janine (37:20):
know Right.

Wendy (37:22):
How they got there. It's Yeah. It's unsettling.
Definitely unsettling.

Janine (37:28):
Right.

Wendy (37:29):
And a head scratcher too. I mean, I have been finding
myself scratching my head a lot.Yeah. Maybe I can attribute it
to the fact that I don't have acell phone.

Janine (37:39):
I Wow. Yeah. That's good.

Wendy (37:41):
That's the reaction, I guess. Like, either how do you
manage that or wow, I wish.Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have an
iPad.
Yeah. I'm not very good with thesocial media, so I don't do a
lot of that. But I I have gottenon the reels on Instagram and,
yeah, it's like, oh, shit.

Janine (38:00):
Really am.

Wendy (38:01):
What Janine's talking about.

Janine (38:02):
Like, oh my god. I'm a goner. Yeah. And it's not, it
doesn't have anything to do withintelligence. This is behavior
psychology at its, at its best.

Wendy (38:13):
Which is good to know, right?

Janine (38:15):
Yeah. It's, it really is. Like, we're no more evolved
than like the neighborhoodRottweiler or something because
we're just But

Wendy (38:22):
that, what you just said, levels the playing field though,
so it's not specific to Not

Janine (38:28):
at all.

Wendy (38:29):
It's everyone.

Janine (38:30):
Having a brain.

Wendy (38:31):
Yeah, okay.

Janine (38:33):
That's it. Yeah.

Wendy (38:35):
Man, all right.

Janine (38:36):
Absolutely. And that's what contributes to the
addictive nature of it too.Basically, now we all have
different talents and abilities,but basically our primitive
ancient brain is the same foreverybody. It's the same for
everybody. Yeah.
So we're all, we're on the sameboat when it comes to that. And
I do find that phone fasts aregood to practice. So, you're not

(39:00):
having a phone is like, youknow, obviously you can get on
in the world without having one.

Wendy (39:08):
It's probably going to get trickier and trickier as
time goes on.

Janine (39:11):
Yeah, yeah.

Wendy (39:12):
Let me just add another little. As you were presenting
the webinar, however long ago itwas now, I was thinking about
because I taught at the localcommunity college for like
fifteen years and really enjoyedit. I would teach the weird
classes.

Janine (39:28):
That's

Wendy (39:29):
cool. Science and spirituality, and I created a
course called the psychology ofconsciousness. And, I I taught a
humanities course called thevampire and literature, film,
and culture. And then morerecently Wow.

Janine (39:43):
That's so cool.

Wendy (39:44):
More recently, I taught world mythology

Janine (39:46):
Mhmm.

Wendy (39:46):
Through the English department. The last semester I
taught, which was in the springof twenty two, it was torture.
Really? Yeah. It was reallyhard.
It was in person. Yeah. Ipreferred it to be able to look
at people's faces. Right. I'm areal discussion heavy teacher.

Janine (40:06):
Mhmm. Yeah. That's good.

Wendy (40:08):
They would not talk. They wouldn't engage with each other.
Even on breaks, they would pickup their phones, they wouldn't
engage with with each other.They would just engage with
their phones. The kicker, Idon't know if it was just the
culture of that classroom, but Ialso No.
I was starting to see that thecritical thinking issue because
Yeah. World mythology can bringup some it can be loaded,

(40:31):
especially when religion isbrought into it.

Janine (40:33):
Well, you have to think. Mhmm.

Wendy (40:35):
And I I had a student say in the first class that, and I
apologize if I'm offendinganyone with this statement, that
I thought it was I thought it Ithought it was unsettling, is
that the the student said thatscience has proven that the
bible is true.

Janine (40:53):
Oh, Jesus. Oh, boy. And I was like it's to hear.

Wendy (40:59):
And she ended up dropping the course.

Janine (41:01):
Well, I'm not surprised. Sorry, but

Wendy (41:03):
A few weeks in. Yeah, no, was good because she was she was
constantly pushing back anddisrupting the class. She was
the only one who would talk.Anyway, yeah, it was really
challenging, and I was having myevery five year review, so I had
my hiring coordinator come in toobserve me teach, and I made a
joke before class started. Isaid, make me look good.

Janine (41:25):
Yeah.

Wendy (41:25):
It's like crickets. You know, I'm like, oh, this is
good. I had warned her ahead oftime that this class does not
engage. They they were champs.They engaged like they never had
before.
Wow. Then when the observer gotlaughed, of the students said,
Isn't it funny how we talked?

Janine (41:50):
Did you notice that?

Wendy (41:51):
Did you notice that? And then they stopped after that.
That was it. No more. They

Janine (41:58):
went back to

Wendy (41:59):
Yeah, they went back to not talking. They just put on a
show, which is, oh, come on. Idon't want to don't want to
teach like this. So I was like,alright, maybe after fifteen
years, I should call it a day.But

Janine (42:08):
yeah, it has definitely changed.

Wendy (42:11):
Yeah, and that's what I was noticing. They were less
interested, less curious,quicker to have reactions to the
material that was beingpresented and harder to present
opposing information.

Janine (42:26):
Yeah. All the things that we talk about with critical
thinking, just scary.

Wendy (42:31):
I just didn't think I could do my job well.

Janine (42:33):
You love to teach though, it sounds like, you see.
And you love the conversation,you love the dialogue, and you
love to impart information,right, in a learning
environment. Yeah. And that's agood thing, but you've got to
have if you love to teach,you've got to have students who
love to learn. And if you don't,like, it's really hard.

(42:54):
Yeah. It's really hard.

Wendy (42:55):
Are you noticing any of that in your teaching?

Janine (42:58):
Unfortunately, yes. Okay. Yes. And it's very hard.
I've actually changed somethings because I recognize the
capacity is not there.
And that's hard to accept. Butas an educator, I have a
responsibility like you did. Butat the same time, I re- just

(43:22):
like what you said, I, Iremember looking at the class,
one class that, I mean, it wasthe first day. And I tell them
right off the bat, no phones.You have to have your phones put
away.

Wendy (43:32):
Yep. Me too.

Janine (43:33):
All electric devices put away. Put your computers away.
Because I don't know if they'rewatching Netflix over there. I
mean, all of it. And then it'sjust like, okay, they, they're
shooting daggers with theireyes, which is fine.
But you set the tone. And thenas I get into the syllabus and I
start to talk about the content,I start to ask them questions.

(43:54):
They just look at me and they'rejust fascinated that I expect
them to talk. I expect them. Andit's almost like an insult that
I expect them, not all of them,okay, but a lot.
Right. And we're doing adisservice to an extent in
schools because the phones inthe schools, not a good thing,
okay. And just, it, it'sdecreasing their, like the

(44:20):
trends that you saw. Thisactually was the cohort that I
focused on in my study, 18 to 24year olds. They are on the cusp
of new and emerging trends.
So, they're a very common cohortto study.

Wendy (44:32):
Okay.

Janine (44:32):
Of course, were other, there were other ages throughout
the study, but that was the mainfocus. So, the study focused on
that age group so that we knowthe impact. And sadly, again,
the critical thinking hasdecreased with the more content
that we've discussed increase.And now it's even more, it's

(44:55):
even more than it was when mystudy was published in 2021.

Wendy (44:59):
And that's on the developing brain because that
cohort that you studied, theirbrains aren't fully formed yet.

Janine (45:08):
Excellent point. We now know that it takes upwards of
the mid to late 20s for the, forthe part of the brain, the last
part of the brain to form, whichis the frontal lobe area, which
as you know, is responsible forexecutive function, long term
planning, thinking before youspeak, the consequences of

(45:29):
actions, a lot of the thingsthat you saw in your classroom.
And it's a detriment. Yeah.

Wendy (45:35):
One of the questions I wanted to ask too is that the
impact of these various media,reality TV, social media

Janine (45:44):
Yeah.

Wendy (45:44):
Is it age specific, or is it across the board that it
impacts all brains, no matterwhat the age?

Janine (45:50):
It's a great question. So, younger that a human brain,
the younger they start, thegreater the impact, because that
that's when the brain is formingfrom zero to five. There's
dramatic changes in the brainand nervous system. There's
things called blooming andpruning. That's what accounts
for the increased brain weight.

(46:10):
So, literally the brain isgrowing and changing in key
areas involved with connectionand the speed of processing.
It's creating the foundation forthat.

Wendy (46:23):
Okay.

Janine (46:24):
So if I see a five year old with a phone, I mean, and
why is it that there's nowarnings out there? Like, of the
other stuff that's connectedwith kids, there's like a
warning. Even like a a card. Iwas looking for a card the other
day. Like a birthday card and Isee like the googly eyes.
Uh-huh. It's like warning. Yourchild could. Choke on these.

(46:46):
Swallow the googly eye.

Wendy (46:47):
Yeah. Right.

Janine (46:48):
And it's like okay. Yes. True. But we're handing, I saw,
we were out to eat, I saw ababy. Like couldn't have been
more than eight months with aphone.

Wendy (46:59):
Get out.

Janine (47:00):
So I get it. I have a, I understand, like I know it's
hard to raise kids. I know that.But yeah. Okay.
And I'm thinking about thatbaby's brain in that moment.
What they're seeing and what'sbeing sucked out. Not what the
child is seeing, but what'sbeing sucked, what's being
arrested in terms ofdevelopment. Okay. Because
that's what's happening.
Like, not to put a fine point onit. That is what's happened, you

(47:22):
see.

Wendy (47:22):
Okay. So, detrimental definitely for young people.

Janine (47:28):
Yes. And, okay, so older, like I'm 50. So like
older is, so you haven't hadthat experience during the
develop, the critical period,which is from zero to age seven.
And then afterward is thesensitive period in terms of
developmental growth of thebrain and nervous system and,
and the body as a whole, butthe, we're specifically focusing

(47:52):
on the brain and nervous system,which animates everything in
the, in the human body. So,afterward, like we didn't have,
you, you didn't have such agreat impact during those
developmental stages.
But as we get older, we'venoticed that when, okay, there
are, there are changes becauseof the brain's sensitivity to

(48:14):
experience and what we doregularly. There are changes.

Wendy (48:18):
That's the neuroplasticity you're talking
about.

Janine (48:21):
Yes, yeah. Alright. Absolutely.

Wendy (48:24):
Okay, so, pretty grim picture. But because of
neuroplasticity, that means thebrain can change at any age.

Janine (48:35):
Absolutely. Absolutely, and it's a wonderful thing, too.

Wendy (48:40):
Have you been suggesting for folks who are concerned
about this? Like, what kinds ofthings can people do? You
already talked about taking kindof a break from your phone.

Janine (48:52):
Doctor. Yeah.

Wendy (48:53):
Doctor. A fast, you called it.

Janine (48:55):
Yeah. And people are like, how is that? No. I mean,
if I, depending on the age groupthat I talk to, right, or
suggest it to, I get differentresponses. But I'm very much for
practical solutions, right?
Just the idea of leaving yourphone across the room. I
practice this often. I'll chargeit, but I'll charge it across

(49:18):
the room. When it's not in yourimmediate like seating area and
you have to actually get up andgo across the room, that's a
big, it helps. It helps.
And I've helped people decreasetheir phone addiction this way.
Clients.

Wendy (49:32):
Okay.

Janine (49:32):
You know, people that I've talked to. Yeah. So leave
it across the room because wejust subconscious, we'll just
pick it up. We'll just pick itup without any real reason in
mind. We'll just pick it up andlook at it and start scrolling
and

Wendy (49:44):
One of the things I've noticed, I was just sitting with
some friends the other day andone of my friends had her phone
on the floor. We were sitting onthe floor and the screen lit up.

Janine (49:56):
Mhmm.

Wendy (49:56):
And immediately she went from the conversation to the
screen and looked at the screen.

Janine (50:01):
Yeah. Yeah.

Wendy (50:02):
And then was disengaged.

Janine (50:05):
Pam loves dog. Yeah. Exactly. We are. We are that on
the phone.

Wendy (50:10):
Yeah. That's addiction.

Janine (50:12):
Yeah. So, we define addiction as the loss of
autonomy, we no longer havecontrol. The thing has control.

Wendy (50:21):
That's a hard thing to admit, right? I mean, that's why

Janine (50:23):
Yeah. People don't admit it.

Wendy (50:25):
Folks don't want to admit they have addiction to any
substance or behavior.

Janine (50:30):
Right. Right.

Wendy (50:31):
It's hard to admit that. It takes a lot of humility.
Yeah. And also I don't want togive this up. I like this.

Janine (50:38):
Yes. And the pleasure component can't be
underestimated. Yeah. Like it'sa dopamine. It's it's like, and
dopamine is is a wonderfulchemical and so is serotonin,
but the thing is, is that itgives us the illusion of
connection, right?
We're not connected.

Wendy (50:53):
Oh, that's a great point. Can you talk a little bit more
about that before we get backinto more sort of remedies or
things that people can do?Doctor.

Janine (51:00):
Sure. Yeah. And I do want to talk about anecdotes.
Yeah. It gives us the illusionthat we are connected.
But as I talked about theexample before, when you tell a
story, you tell a story and yourbrain links up with the person
that you're listening to becauseyou're involved in a meaningful

(51:21):
level. You're involved in thestory. You're literally
connected with what they'resaying, okay? So, we've lost an
element of that when we'realone, physically alone, or when
we're surrounded by other peoplebut we're on our phones.

Wendy (51:37):
Yeah.

Janine (51:37):
We we are immersed rather in the experience that
we're having in the phone andwe're alone in that experience
even if we're connected to therest of the world.

Wendy (51:48):
There's the illusion that it is a true connection even
though it's not

Janine (51:54):
a true Yeah. It's Yeah. Largely it's artificial.

Wendy (51:59):
So when someone is scrolling through TikTok or
Instagram Reels or on Facebook,whatever they're called, I don't
know what the fuck. Yeah.

Janine (52:08):
No, you got it right.

Wendy (52:08):
What what what's going on with chemistry? What is the
addictive nature of these?However, the really mini little
why are those so addictivecompared to a longer YouTube
video?

Janine (52:24):
Right. So we have the perception and of course the
perception creates the reality.We have the perception that
because these these entities outthere think like me or are in
my, my wavelength that I'mconnected to, this person gets
me. But it's not a you don'thave to deal with the bumps of

(52:46):
real communication and realrelationships, right?

Wendy (52:49):
So, it like a weird kind of confirmation bias in a way?

Janine (52:54):
In a way, that's a really good point, yeah. We seek
out what we already think, whatwe already believe, or what we
don't realize that we're notthinking.

Wendy (53:04):
And the algorithm will support Oh,

Janine (53:06):
yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it funnels it right to us, you
see. And so it's not real. Real,real connection and real
meaningful connection. You feelit, you feel sometimes upset,
sometimes happy, sometimes likeI gotta work at this a little
bit and there's there's effortinvolved.

(53:26):
It's not just this prepackagedthing that arrives at your
doorstep without any without anyeffort at all or earned. And I
can depend on this friend that Ihave in my life. Right? And so
we have this false sense that Ican depend on the phone to make
me happy. I can depend on thesethese Facebook friends that I

(53:46):
don't even know where they liveor where they are in the world.

Wendy (53:50):
Or if they're real.

Janine (53:51):
Exactly. That's just a couple of seconds. Right? But
it's a false sense of security.It doesn't make us feel it's not
durable.

Wendy (54:01):
Okay.

Janine (54:03):
Okay. So in that sense it's not yeah.

Wendy (54:06):
Yeah it's it's just not.

Janine (54:09):
Okay. All right. I mean I was in the ER I didn't call on
a Facebook friend you know.

Wendy (54:15):
Yeah, yep. Totally didn't. That's a great, great
point. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. When your house is on youdon't go on social media.

Janine (54:26):
Right. Yeah. We gotta remember that. We gotta remember
that. People need each Yeah,that

Wendy (54:34):
is very true. Okay. So then, let's go back to
anecdotes.

Janine (54:39):
Sure. Yep. So, there's people out there that I've
researched, okay, that Iincluded in the presentation
that you saw that advocate acomplete cessation, like just
get off of it. Just have acomplete fast. And I understand
their premise and it does work.

(55:00):
You immediately start to feeldifferently without so much
technology in your life, andconflict from reality TV.
However, I don't think it's adurable solution. I don't think
it's long term. I don't thinkit's practical either. I
advocate balance.
I advocate- Like moderation.Moderation, yeah. And noticing.

(55:22):
See, this one of the things thatit gets depleted so quickly with
the use of these mediums toomuch is that we just don't
realize we're not payingattention. We lose our ability
to focus.
We're not paying attention. So,start to pay attention to how
long you're on the phone.There's actually things in the
phone that can tell you. Like,you really, you've been on your

(55:44):
phone for nine hours, or youhave total hours of screen time,
like it'll tell you. And juststart to notice.
So pay attention, awareness.That increases, okay, the
increased awareness is the firststep. And then start to
implement little habits that candecrease the connection to these

(56:04):
things and that will start tochip away at the addiction.
Start to bring into your lifemeaningful connection, in person
activities, being inenvironments where the phone is
not required. So those types ofthings are really good to weave
into your life, weave into yourday, like placing the phone out

(56:26):
of sight, even placing it out ofsight, okay, is a really good
way.
So, James Clear talks about thisin his book, Atomic Habits, that
you want, if you want todecrease in activity, right?
Make it difficult and hard. So,it's like you make that, you
make the steps to that activity,to doing that activity

(56:48):
difficult. And if you want toincrease an activity, you make
it simple and easy. So we'retrying to decrease phone use,
for example.
Place the phone in another partof the room, charge it across
the room or in another room,keep it out of sight if you
happen to be working onsomething so that you don't look
at it and you don't see it, andyou're not constantly reminded

(57:08):
of it, you remove the cue.That's what you do. You remove
the cue, and then you have amuch greater chance of doing
something else when you feelagitated or you feel like you
wanna be distracted, or youcould just let yourself be
distracted. Imagine that. Justlet yourself be bored.
And that's the thing I justremembered from your
presentation that I reallywanted

Wendy (57:28):
to hit on too was what you mentioned about boredom.

Janine (57:33):
Yeah.

Wendy (57:34):
And the importance of being okay with being bored.

Janine (57:39):
Yeah. Nobody's bored anymore. Like, it's not gonna
hurt you, I promise.

Wendy (57:44):
Why is it important to have boredom in our lives?

Janine (57:47):
If you look at a brain on boredom, it starts to blossom
like a flower. It's like youstart to all

Wendy (57:55):
of

Janine (57:55):
these areas become wonderfully interactive and you
start to imagine something todo. It basically increases your
imagination, which is soimportant in all aspects of our
life. Watching kids. Kids areperfect examples, right? So you
give them this toy at Christmastime, like a five year old,
because they're in that stage ofimagination.

(58:16):
You you give them a toy and it'slike a prepackaged toy and it's
like already completed. Thosethose are just not good. And
then the kid gets bored veryquickly. And what do they do?
They start to play with thewrapper.
Start to play with the box. Orthey'll create something to do
out of seeming nothing in theirin their surroundings. What's
happened to that? Right. Like,that's a good thing.
It's a good thing. Your brainneeds boredom. Needs it.

Wendy (58:41):
Okay.

Janine (58:41):
It's a good brain food.

Wendy (58:43):
I'm so glad I remembered to ask you about that and to
bring that. Yeah. Thanks.Because it's so important. It's
really important.
The lack of tolerance of boredomis I think what leads people to,
like, when they're trying tofast with their phones.

Janine (58:58):
Yeah. Yeah.

Wendy (59:00):
I don't know if that's like a withdrawal symptom or
what, but it's like, I

Janine (59:03):
No. It's inversely connected to addiction. Okay.
Yeah, you're right. Yeah.
It's like I have to increase mytolerance and question it. Yeah,
it's an opportunity to questionwhy am I so uncomfortable with
boredom? Why am I souncomfortable with sitting?

Wendy (59:20):
Weaning seems to be the way to go. It I mean, it it
makes sense to do that ratherthan, like, the cold shock
therapy of just Right. Tossingyour, phone into the ocean.

Janine (59:36):
Don't recommend that. Right. You know, I mean, because
then you're likely to try toreplace it with something else.
Got to increase that muscle.Think of it as a muscle.
Like if you, if you slowly everyday incrementally add these
different antidotes, add thesedifferent techniques and habits

(59:59):
into your life, then before youknow it, you're spending less
time, you're noticing more,You're going out into the world
and noticing the world, likethat's forgotten too.

Wendy (01:00:10):
There's something

Janine (01:00:11):
like zombies on their phone, you know, and they're
completely, they have the beatson, their ears are totally
covered, their eyes are on thephone and it's dangerous. Yeah.

Wendy (01:00:22):
Oh yeah. Yeah. And it also makes me think about
discomfort, like being okay withbeing uncomfortable with the
lack of stimulation.

Janine (01:00:34):
Yeah. Right. Right. You gotta relearn.

Wendy (01:00:37):
It's okay to be uncomfortable.

Janine (01:00:39):
Exactly. Exactly. I mean, I would encourage
questioning that too. Like, whyam I uncomfortable? Other than,
like, I don't have I don't havesomething to entertain me right
now.
But why why am I uncomfortable?What is that about? Like, why
can't I just sit?

Wendy (01:00:57):
Great point. Yeah. You also mentioned some apps that
could help people Yeah. Kind ofregulate their screen time.

Janine (01:01:05):
Yes. And I I include this in the antidote section
because we can use the phonesconstructively. We can use the
phone to help us with the phone,you know, and Exactly. Yeah,
exactly. But I think one of themis Pomodoro.
Pomodoro is an app that if youwant to increase like say your

(01:01:28):
study time or your reading timeor whatever it is that
incorporates like naturalbreaks, okay. And there's a part
of the phone that you canprogram that lets you know it'll
give you like a warning. Likeyou've been on this for you've
been on Facebook, for example,for for this amount of time. I
have a function in my phonethat's set up that if I hold my

(01:01:49):
phone too close to my face,everything shuts off. Sometimes
it really gets to Yeah.
Well, shuts off. The screen goeswhite and it reads, Your iPhone
is too close and you have topull it away from you. I have to
pull it away from my face. Andthen the function key shows up
that lets me say, Okay, it's farenough.

Wendy (01:02:12):
Can. Fascinating. It's like your phone has its own set
of personal boundaries.

Janine (01:02:18):
Yes. But you've got we've got to implement them, you
know?

Wendy (01:02:22):
You have to set them up. But

Janine (01:02:24):
then I'm made aware of how quickly this can happen.
Like, I'm holding it too close.It's not good for my eyes. Oh.
You know?
It's not good for my head. Ihave too much. Yeah.

Wendy (01:02:35):
Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Janine (01:02:36):
Yeah.

Wendy (01:02:37):
One of the other things you mentioned in the
presentation that you did was

Janine (01:02:42):
Mhmm.

Wendy (01:02:42):
How valuable reading is.

Janine (01:02:45):
Yeah. Yeah. And right off the bat, I admit my bias.
Okay? I mentioned early, earlyon, my father took me to the
library when I was very young.
But bias aside, reading has beenshown, and I looked at this in
my research, reading iswonderful brain food because you

(01:03:08):
are creating a picture,especially with fiction, but
with even with academic readingto less of an extent, it
encourages the creative processand it engages left and right
hemispheres. Okay, so the righthemisphere is like right in the
moment and what's happening now,it's more associated with
creativity. The left hemisphereis more analytical and is like

(01:03:30):
past, present, past and future,and planning language, all of
that. It wonderfully integratesthe two. The visual cortex kind
of has this mini movie playingof what's going on with what the
author is trying to impart andso much more than that.
Like you are able to understand,say for example, the book

(01:03:52):
nineteen eighty four written byGeorge Orwell. In one of the
research articles that I read,the teacher is talking about the
book in class, but she's alsoasking the students who have
read chapters in the book andshe's asking them to draw
parallels between, okay, sowe're talking about
totalitarianism. George Orwellis talking about that in the

(01:04:14):
book. How can we relate that towhat is perhaps happening in
certain parts of the worldtoday? And asking them to draw
from a book that was written in1940 after World War II and
comparing that to now and youknow, so many things are
happening that encouragecritical thinking.
Absolutely, yeah. Makes It'swonderful. Yeah, it's a

(01:04:34):
wonderful, unfortunately, one ofthe articles that I read was
called Reversing Redecide.

Wendy (01:04:40):
What is, what?

Janine (01:04:42):
Yeah. So, it's the decline in reading that has
happened. People are readingless and less and less and less.
Alarming statistics. Alarming.

Wendy (01:04:52):
Not a great time to be releasing a book, but

Janine (01:04:56):
Well, I did too. You gotta

Wendy (01:04:58):
do it. People seem to be more drawn to audio books. Yeah.
I don't know if they'reequivalent. I mean, I think they
probably hearing a story versusreading a story.
Don't know.

Janine (01:05:09):
Both are good. Okay. Both are very good. They engage
the brain. Okay.
I I listen to books too. I readbooks with my eyes and I hold
the physical book. But I alsolisten to books, you know, and
there's some books that

Wendy (01:05:22):
You're a caveman. Yeah.

Janine (01:05:24):
I know, I must be. I'm like a unicorn. No species, but,
no, it's wonderful for thebrain. It's wonderful, but the
downturn of reading has really,I do think that there's been the
rise in technology has hithumanities pretty hard.

Wendy (01:05:41):
Yeah, it's something. And then we didn't even get into AI,
but that's a whole other, it's awhole other thing.

Janine (01:05:47):
Yeah, it is. The moment these machines start dreaming
might be the time to be reallyscared because there's that's
consciousness, like the animals.You mentioned consciousness and
your interest in it. I am too.Animals can dream and that's
what makes us very similar.
Okay, the animals. Computerscan't dream. And I heard an AI

(01:06:09):
tech friend of mine say yet. I'mlike, I don't I don't think
that's ever going to happen.

Wendy (01:06:16):
My logical mind can't make sense of how that would
come to pass. Right. Because Iguess it, that begs the question
of what is consciousness? Is itsomething that can be generated

Janine (01:06:27):
Mhmm.

Wendy (01:06:28):
Artificially Mhmm. In humans or any creature?

Janine (01:06:32):
Yeah.

Wendy (01:06:32):
I subscribe to the idea that that more kind of
indigenous concept

Janine (01:06:37):
Mhmm.

Wendy (01:06:37):
And also through my direct experience that
everything has intelligence

Janine (01:06:41):
Yes.

Wendy (01:06:41):
That you can be in relationship with

Janine (01:06:43):
Yes. Plants Absolutely.

Wendy (01:06:46):
Animals

Janine (01:06:46):
Yes. I agree. The quantum.

Wendy (01:06:48):
Is that a form of consciousness? Yeah. I would
suggest it is. And I I mean, Ithink there are different types
of consciousness. So it'stricky.
Yeah. Tricky territory.

Janine (01:06:58):
Yeah.

Wendy (01:06:59):
Machine consciousness, I don't know about that. Like, I'm
trying to imagine. I mean, ifintelligence equates to
consciousness is an importantfactor in it. Then I yeah. Who
knows?
I don't know.

Janine (01:07:12):
It's interesting.

Wendy (01:07:13):
I can't speak to it really. So, other than to kind
of speculate.

Janine (01:07:17):
Yeah, it's very interesting. But if the brain is
the physical, the mind must beits its counterpart

Wendy (01:07:26):
Non physical.

Janine (01:07:27):
In the non physical, right? And so consciousness is,
is there to an extent.

Wendy (01:07:33):
I think there's both.

Janine (01:07:34):
Yes. Yes.

Wendy (01:07:35):
Like each cell has its own consciousness. Yes.

Janine (01:07:38):
Right. Absolutely.

Wendy (01:07:40):
That's an unconscious process. Like, we're not aware
of what our cells Right. Whatprocesses they're engaged Merely
go about doing. Yeah, but thenwe have this idea of a self and
that's a whole different kind ofconsciousness. Yeah.
An awareness Mhmm. Of you and mehaving this conversation and
listening to the words. Right.

Janine (01:07:59):
Right.

Wendy (01:07:59):
Anyone who might be listening, they're listening and
engaging Yeah. With the contentthat's different than your lung
cells listening to a podcast.Right?

Janine (01:08:08):
Right. And, but they, they have their own entity. They
have their own entity within theentity within, and it's, it's,
it's fascinating and amazing tothink about that. And I've done
a lot of, I'm interested in, inthat as well, the metaphysical
and the quantum, and it's,they're finding out more and

(01:08:28):
more and more. And I think thatwhen we, when we focus less
going outward and focus goinginward, we'll find out more.
We'll find out more about all ofthis.

Wendy (01:08:40):
Imagine that.

Janine (01:08:41):
Yeah. Yeah.

Wendy (01:08:42):
All that wisdom is right there for any of us to access.
It's just a matter of gettingthrough the noise of our
interior worlds, I think,because it's there. It's
generating all the time insightsand intuitions and stuff. Right.
Noise gets in the way I think ofus perceiving it.

Janine (01:08:59):
It does. And there's so much vying for our attention.
And so, you know, slowing down,like Andy said, there's more to
life than increasing its speed.Sitting, being contemplative,
noticing your life, noticingyour day, noticing the energy of
your life, going inward, Buddhasays inquire within. That's

(01:09:20):
very, these things are also, Ithink, antidotes to the noise
that's out there.
Yeah.

Wendy (01:09:25):
Beautiful. Before we wrap up, any other antidotes you
hadn't mentioned yet that youthink are worth bringing up?

Janine (01:09:32):
Well, yeah, I would like to mention that if you're trying
to Nature. Absolutely. Nature.Nature, your brain changes on
nature. Being in nature helpsconnect you to your nature, I
think, in a way that nothingelse probably on earth can.
Meditation is wonderful forhelping relax your body, relax

(01:09:55):
your nervous system. We sleep torejuvenate our brain and nervous
system, not so much for thebody, but to rejuvenate this
wonderful system that we have.Meditation helps so much with
that. And yes, being in natureis one of the best things. If
you meditate in nature, you'regetting like so many benefits

(01:10:17):
all at once.
If you can do that. I encourageit daily.

Wendy (01:10:21):
You're just doing your private practice, right?

Janine (01:10:23):
I still do pre, I still do the presentation that you
saw. I do that, thoseperiodically. I talk about
topics and present topics toschools, to administration. So,
I'm very much involved withthat. I enjoy imparting this
information and I do my privatepractice with clients.

(01:10:44):
I teach meditation at the localYMCA, which I enjoy that very
much. I teach yoga also at theYMCA. I teach yoga for free. No
kidding. Doctor.
Out in nature. Yeah. During thepandemic, I did that all the
time. Know, I have a group thatI run where we go outside in
nature, we hike and I taughtyoga, invite people to come to

(01:11:06):
yoga and yeah, because it's awonderful unifying, relaxing
thing to do. Absolutely.
So it's really, really good. SoI love that too.

Wendy (01:11:16):
And you're in Pennsylvania?

Janine (01:11:18):
Yeah. I'm in the Philadelphia area. Yeah. A lot
of woods around me.

Wendy (01:11:23):
Philly. Yeah. All right. So, if someone wanted to reach
out to you and get moreinformation or maybe want you to
present somewhere, like at aschool somewhere or something?

Janine (01:11:37):
Yeah, I appreciate you bringing that up. I have a
website. It's justDrJanineOliver.com.

Wendy (01:11:42):
Okay. I'll put that in the show notes so people can
find it

Janine (01:11:44):
Thank you.

Wendy (01:11:45):
Easily. Thank you. I am so thankful to you for coming on
and I think having an incrediblyimportant conversation with me
about this stuff.

Janine (01:11:55):
Well, you are most welcome, Wendy, and I appreciate
you. I appreciate the work thatyou do. I appreciate Lucid Cafe.
I appreciate you giving me theopportunity to talk. It's been
really great getting to know youand talk to you, and I really,
really am glad that you you hadme here.
I appreciate it. Are

Wendy (01:12:18):
you still there? Even though it's not the easiest
topic to look at, I sincerelyhope that this information was
helpful. I was amazed at howmuch Janine's findings captured
what seems to be happening inAmerican culture. So to learn
more about Janine, her work, andher book, The Anxiety Cure,

(01:12:40):
Practical Drug Free Ways toRewire Your Brain, please visit
doctor Janine Oliver dot com.Thank you so much for tuning in.
I'll be back in a few weeks witha new episode on a topic that
always confused the hell out ofme, karma, which probably says a

Janine (01:12:59):
lot about

Wendy (01:12:59):
me. Until next time.