October 31, 2025 • 54 mins
Forget the sanitized fairy tales — Danielle Dulsky, the author of The Night House: Folklore, Fairy Tales, Rites, and Magick for the Wise and Wild, is here to remind us that the old stories bite back. We talk about the witch as an archetype of creative rebellion, the power of ritual, and how folklore can awaken the wild, wise self that’s been hiding just beneath the surface.
Danielle is a heathen visionary, painter, and word-witch. She’s the author of Seasons of Moon and Flame, Woman Most Wild, and The Holy Wild; she teaches internationally and has facilitated circles, embodiment trainings, communal spell-work, and seasonal rituals since 2007. She is the founder of The Hag School and believes in the emerging power of wild collectives and sudden circles of curious dreamers, cunning witches, and rebellious artists in healing our ailing world.
In this episode, Danielle discusses:
- The Hag School
- Her background and transformation into a witch
- The meaning of her book title, The Night House
- The mysterious origins of fairy tales
- Archetypes in fairy tales
- How readers can work with her book
- The hidden intelligence contained with fairy tales, myths, etc
- The universality of ancient stories
- Dreaming the future
- The hidden realm
- The magic of storytelling
- An example of how to work with a fairy tale
Chech out Danielle's website and the The Hag School
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Wendy (00:02):
You're listening to Lucid Cafe. I'm your host, Wendy
Halley. Hello, and welcome toseason eight of Lucid Cafe, a
(00:35):
podcast exploring healing,consciousness, and the
complexities of being human. Andwhat a season it's gonna be.
Just to give you a taste ofwhat's to come, we'll be
exploring dreamscapes andliminal spaces and of course
shamanism, astrologicalperspectives, the amazing ways
(00:56):
in which women are finding theirpower.
We'll take a deep dive in toclairvoyant readings. And in
today's episode, we'll bedelving into the mystical
healing power contained in fairytales. I also forgot to mention
at the end of last season thatI've crossed the 100 episode
threshold. Holy shit. Today'sepisode is number 101.
(01:20):
How about that? I also wanted tolet you know that I'm offering a
free webinar on Saturday,11/08/2025 called entering the
age of possibility, reframingthis challenging time, where
I'll draw upon indigenousprophecies, a variety of
shamanic visionary experiencesI've had, Polynesian wisdom
(01:42):
tradition, and the insightsexplored in my new visionary
fiction novel Raven's Daughterin order to offer a powerful
reframing of our currentreality. One that reveals the
hidden potential within thedisruption. If you'd like to
learn more or sign up I'll leavea link in the show notes.
Alright so on with the episode.
(02:04):
My guest Danielle Dulsky is afellow heathen visionary,
painter and word witch. I lovethat she calls herself a
heathen. She's the author ofSeasons of Moon and Flame, Women
Most Wild, and The Holy Wild.She teaches internationally and
(02:26):
has facilitated circles,embodiment trainings, communal
spell work, and seasonal ritualssince 2007. She is the founder
of the Hag School and believesin the emerging power of wild
collectives and sudden circlesof curious dreamers, cunning
witches, and rebellious artistsin healing our ailing world.
(02:48):
In this conversation, wediscussed Danielle's new book,
The Nighthouse, Folklore, FairyTales, Rites, and Magic for the
Wise and Wild, and how thehidden intelligence embedded in
these ancient tales ofmysterious origins can offer a
potent and transformative windowinto ourselves. So please enjoy
(03:09):
my conversation with DanielleZilski. Danielle, thanks so much
for joining me.
Danielle (03:19):
Thanks so much for having me. So happy to be here.
Wendy (03:22):
So you have a new book out, the nighthouse, folklore,
fairy tales, rights, and magicfor the wise and wild. Yeah.
It's a very inviting cover justright off the bat. It was for me
anyway. They did a good job ofcreating the mood because your
writing style is superenchanting.
Danielle (03:45):
Thank you.
Wendy (03:47):
And given the topic, or I should say, given the the
territory you're covering, itmakes sense that you would write
in this very enchanted way. So,before we get into your book,
I'd like to learn a little bitmore about you because I
Danielle (04:04):
Mhmm.
Wendy (04:04):
I don't know much about you. So the Hag School, tell me
about the Hag School.
Danielle (04:09):
Yeah. Yeah. So the HAG school was born in 2019, and I
was actually just reflecting onthat period in my life. It was
like 2019 where I really didhave this kind of compulsion to
start moving some of my workvirtual. And I didn't really
(04:34):
understand why, because I didn'treally like teaching virtually
at the time.
Just, you know, it was all aboutthe real life circles, and
people would come to my house.And I was teaching witchcraft
out of my house, yoga out of myhouse for, I don't know, five
years before that. So
Wendy (04:51):
So you did you did you feel the coming pandemic on this
very ethereal level, you think,maybe?
Danielle (04:57):
I think I did. I it I didn't feel that there was
anything very ominous coming atthat point. It was just kind of
like, you know all of thesedifferent forces were lining up
there, I was not techie, I meanI know many of us weren't, but I
was not as techie as I am now atthat time. And I had suddenly
(05:18):
had this assistant who, youknow, was very well versed in
all things technology, buildingwebsites, and online courses,
and all of that stuff.
Wendy (05:27):
Helpful. Yeah.
Danielle (05:27):
She yeah. So she so she just started doing it.
Without her, I don't know what Iwould have done. Would have just
hidden my cave, when COVIDhappened. But yeah.
So the Hag School was born outof not only that, but also,
having connected with all ofthese different very skilled
teachers in witchcraft,storytelling, conscious dance,
(05:50):
all of these other areas thatwere not my strong suit and
feeling like, oh, well, I'mpretty good at creating
communities, so let's see whathappens if I create this Hague
School that's like this virtualplace where people can come to
learn and there's nothingnecessarily binding and hidden
(06:12):
about it. And every teachercould just kind of do their own
thing. So that was how itoriginated. And then, you know,
COVID happened in March 2020. Ihad a one of my books was coming
out in March 2020.
So it just had this bigclimactic
Wendy (06:28):
Great timing. Yeah.
Danielle (06:29):
All of my work falling apart and being reborn within
the space of a couple of months.And it just really seemed like
the hag school was one of thoseways where the witch stays a
step ahead, you know, even ifshe's not totally conscious of
how and why she's doing that.So, yeah. So it's because, you
(06:49):
know, it's grown a lot sincethen, but that's how it started.
And it's still a place where alot of different witches can
come to learn from otherwitches.
And we do have real life thingsnow, which is nice, but there's
still the virtual option so wecan reach around the world. So
yeah.
Wendy (07:07):
Cool. That's very cool. So would you I mean, you
consider yourself a witch? I do.Okay.
Mhmm. How did that was thissomething you were born into, or
did it did it enter your lifelater?
Danielle (07:20):
It entered my life later. I was definitely not born
into it. I was I usuallydescribe my childhood as this,
well when I'm talking about theweird product that is me. My
mother was a pretty strict bornagain Christian, especially when
I was younger. So I went to aborn again Christian school, I
went to church twice a week.
(07:42):
And then my dad was an atheistbiker, Vietnam vet.
Wendy (07:47):
What a couple.
Danielle (07:48):
Outlaw, criminal in some ways. So, yes, very
different people that and theywere married
Wendy (07:56):
Your mom probably had to do a lot of praying for him!
Danielle (07:59):
And me. They were married and divorced three
times, but, like, stayedtogether the whole time. So it
was very volatile
Wendy (08:05):
Wow.
Danielle (08:06):
Very dysfunctional childhood. But I was so I lived
with them half the time, andthen I was with my very cookies
in the oven grandparents theother half of the time when my
parents couldn't handle me andmy sister. So it was a bizarre
and peculiar upbringing, But I Ifeel like I wouldn't be as
(08:28):
willing to sort of test theboundaries and see how much I
can get away with in life if Iwasn't raised in that weird
dynamic. So witchcraft didn'treally enter into the equation
until after I graduated highschool. I moved to Ireland.
I think, again, you know, thewitch staying a step ahead even
(08:50):
when she's not trying to findsome sort of ancestral belonging
when I was raised in such aweird way. And I did find that
there. I lived there for alittle while and then came back
and, you know, met the guy, wentto art school, moved to Florida
from Pennsylvania. And themoment I name as, like, my big
(09:12):
witchcraft moment wasn't whenI'm, you know, hiding star
hawks, the spiral dance under mybed when I'm a teenager,
although I did that. It wasn'twhen I was trying to figure out
how to cast spells for the firsttime just in my kitchen with the
baby screaming in thebackground, although I did that.
It was a little bit later when Iwas around 25, so this was
really exactly twenty years agoprobably from right now, where
(09:37):
it's a middle of the nightmoment, and I'm nursing one of
my sons. And it's just one ofthose, like, lonely, why me
moments? And thinking about howspellcraft really makes me feel
more autonomous and powerful andsovereign than really anything
else I had done up until thatpoint, spiritually anyway. And I
(10:02):
was just looking at my baby andthinking about how I didn't want
him to have to hide anythingabout who he was and feeling a
little bit hypocritical abouthow I was really hiding that.
And part of the reason I washiding it is because wasn't just
because I didn't wanna be burnedat the stake.
It was because I didn't reallywanna have to explain myself.
Wendy (10:24):
I get that more than you know. Yeah.
Danielle (10:27):
I just didn't wanna have to talk about it. I I mean,
I still feel that way a lot ofthe time.
Wendy (10:32):
So I'm asking annoying questions about it. Yeah.
Danielle (10:35):
Yeah. Like, you know, if I go to parties and people
ask me what I do, I don't sayauthor because the next question
is always, well, what do youwrite about? And then I have to
talk about witchcraft. I don'treally like to do that with
people that aren't there. Soanyway, so anyway, I'm nursing
my baby, and I'm like, well, Idon't want him to have to hide
who he is, I'm so not gonna hideit anymore.
(10:56):
And I just decided, like, I'mnot gonna shout it from the
rooftops or anything, but I'mnot going to go to extra effort
to make other peoplecomfortable. And if I don't feel
like explaining myself, I justwon't. And and so that was the
moment that I name is like, youknow, maybe I had sensed and
identified as a witch beforethat, but that moment of feeling
(11:18):
like it might be witnessed byother people was sort of like
this great epiphany that Ireally think set me off on the
path that I've been walkingsince then.
Wendy (11:31):
You've and you literally stepped into that.
Danielle (11:35):
Yes.
Wendy (11:36):
That part of you.
Danielle (11:37):
Mhmm. Yeah. So, you know, after that, it was like,
if anybody would ask me if I wasa witch, I would say yes.
Because
Wendy (11:47):
it comes up a lot, like, when you're at the grocery
store. Hey. Are you a witch?
Danielle (11:51):
Well, no. I guess not when I'm at the grocery store. I
am heavily tattooed, though, soI do get questions about, like,
you know, what do the symbols onyour fingers mean?
Wendy (12:01):
Oh, okay. I gotcha. So curious folks will find out.
Danielle (12:07):
Yeah.
Wendy (12:08):
Yeah.
Danielle (12:08):
I mean, even yesterday, I was at this antique
store, and this the woman whowas there started just asking me
about, like, how to clearhaunted items. And I was like,
how does she know that I mightknow how to do that?
Wendy (12:22):
It's almost as if you have a neon sign over your head.
Danielle (12:26):
I guess.
Wendy (12:28):
Ask me weird shit!
Danielle (12:32):
Yeah. That's cool.
Wendy (12:36):
This is very cool. So I I imagine your life is very
colorful as a result. Yeah?
Danielle (12:42):
It is. It is colorful. It was, you know, after that
strange chapter in my life whenmy kids were very young, I there
was this great wounding, whichseems to be kind of like a
bizarre rite of passage that alot of witches experience that
came with my Saturn returnduring my late 20s where my
(13:02):
original witchcraft teacher whowas very like my mother and my
best friend at the same time.She just kind of like was the
great wounder of my life thatmade my entire family fall
apart. And so I moved back homethen to Pennsylvania and was
like, well, I'm never gonnateach witchcraft.
I'm like, I still won't hide it,but I'm not gonna teach
(13:25):
witchcraft. And that lastedabout five minutes. And then,
you know, I found this communitythat was very loving, welcoming,
incredibly liberal in all of theways that we want things to be
liberal anyway. And I was, I hada a covenant there, like within,
I don't know, two years aftermoving back home. So that was
(13:47):
now thirteen or so years ago.
And yeah, the rest is kind ofhistory. There's something
about, like, having it like,I've always looked at witchcraft
as being at least in part anart. I love the beauty of
crafting spells. I love buildingthe altar and all of those
things that might that that kindof aligned with my artist and
(14:08):
creative nature. And so there'ssomething about having it
witnessed that, like, makes itshine a little bit brighter.
So, you know, the the writing ofthe books and the, you know,
having people come together andcast spells and move through
rituals, that's been the theheart of what I would think my
my purpose or my calling is atleast for the last ten or
(14:32):
fifteen years. It's not No.
Wendy (14:36):
I imagine it's not easy, but you're doing it. That's
gotta feel that's gotta feelreally fulfilling.
Danielle (14:42):
Yeah.
Wendy (14:43):
And and you're probably I mean, I imagine you're serving a
lot of people and helping themconnect with their own inner
witches.
Danielle (14:51):
Yeah. Yeah. I hope so. It is. It's I've I'm always
grateful for, you know, when Italk to other people that are
thinking about leading reallife, I'm gonna say magical
experiences, and I know all ofthe common, like, fears and
trepidation around that.
And a lot of those things thatother people worry about and
(15:12):
maybe have even encountered, Ihaven't really encountered in my
work. Like, it's not like therearen't conflicts when there's a
bunch of women who cometogether.
Wendy (15:22):
There is that.
Danielle (15:23):
There are those, but, you know, enough to stop me from
doing it. I've definitely notencountered that. So, yeah, I do
feel really grateful that thesespontaneous communities that I'm
able to create, they they alwaysseem to work and be right and
feed people in the way that theyneed to be said.
Wendy (15:41):
Well, I think I mean, that would be a reflection on
you because if you're if you'refacilitating those processes,
then you're setting the tone,you're set you're kind of
creating a culture
Danielle (15:52):
Yeah.
Wendy (15:53):
Of openness around that. So it's it's yeah. That it it
that's how that works, I think.
Danielle (16:02):
Yeah. Yeah. I hope so. A lot of it feels lucky if I'm
being honest.
Wendy (16:09):
Well, but but we could go back to that kind of that part
of you that seems to have aknowing that you're not always
consciously aware of.
Danielle (16:20):
It's true. Right. It's true.
Wendy (16:22):
It makes perfect sense.
Danielle (16:23):
Yeah.
Wendy (16:26):
But for any of us who are, like, trying to to be
better or whatever Mhmm. It it'sit's a hard thing to kinda
surrender to that wise part ofourselves. I mean Yeah. And
trust that it's it's alwaysgonna be there and that we're
always gonna recognize it, butit works in such mysterious ways
(16:48):
and also very quiet ways. Right?
So we don't even know
Danielle (16:53):
Yeah. A lot of the times
Wendy (16:56):
What the fuck's going on?
Danielle (16:57):
Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Like our our wise and
future self is always trying tocall us toward them.
And that we, you know, if ifthat's us, that it's happening
just in our brain or in theethers or whatever, we don't
need to necessarily know all theins and outs of it, I guess. I'm
a somewhat controlling person,so I do Well,
Wendy (17:20):
I mean, who isn't really? I mean, really? Some of us more
than others for sure. But, yeah,one of the things I've I've
discovered through my ownpractice and my own direct
experiences is that it seemsthat you can only see this in
hindsight, but it seems thateverything is beautifully
orchestrated. Like, when youlook back, right, on the
(17:41):
trajectory of your life
Danielle (17:43):
Mhmm.
Wendy (17:43):
You can see that, like, oh, wow. Like, even that deep
wounding from this mentor
Danielle (17:50):
Yeah.
Wendy (17:50):
It if it wasn't for her, probably you wouldn't Yeah. Have
ended up where you are now.Right? I mean
Danielle (17:56):
Right. Exactly.
Wendy (17:58):
How freaking cool is that?
Danielle (17:59):
Yeah.
Wendy (18:00):
But in the moment, it's painful as hell, and you don't
you can't see that.
Danielle (18:04):
Right.
Wendy (18:06):
It's so hard to imagine that. I mean, all this terrible
shit that's happening isactually there's there might be
something to it.
Danielle (18:16):
There's some intelligence afoot. Yeah. That's
how I feel.
Wendy (18:19):
That's cool. Well, went off on a bit of a tangent there,
so I wanna get to your I wannaget to your new book. The title
itself is intriguing. Right? TheNighthouse.
Danielle (18:33):
Yeah.
Wendy (18:33):
So what do you mean by the knighthouse? What is that
symbolic of?
Danielle (18:38):
Yeah. So and even just going back to the cover, there's
certain images and fairy talesthat repeat even sometimes all
over the world. So, you know,there's there's just such this
this strange quality to orallytransmitted fairy tales. So, not
necessarily literary fairy talesthat were written and we know
(19:01):
who the author is but the orallytransmitted fairy tales that
were primarily collected by men,but we know they were
transmitted primarily by womenand that we still don't really
know where they came from. Likewe don't really know their
origins and there are thesecommon images that repeat
whether the fairy tale was youknow, there's a fairy tale of
(19:25):
the handless maiden for examplehas the most popular version is
the German version but there's aversion that's written in
Swahili that's almost the exactsame plot line from a very
different part of the world, butthe imagery is the same.
So I just fell in love with thatbecause I love, you know, the
(19:46):
oracles that seem to be there,and we don't really, like, like,
reading the birds or, you know,reading the trees and the
oracles that seem to beuniversal and where did they
come from. So the knighthouse isa common image in fairy tales.
It's sort of like, you know,Rapunzel's tower or the house of
the wild ones from the handlessmaiden or Baba Yaga's hut. It's
(20:10):
the woodland house or sometimesthe jungle house or the
initiatory cave that is alwaysfound when the main character is
in the middle of an initiation.So it's, you know, you never
find this hidden house ofhealing when everything's great.
You know, you find this hiddenhouse of healing either when
(20:31):
you're just in your depths, inthe void, like, you know, in our
modern lives when we're cryingon the bathroom floor, like when
you're in that middle phase ofan initiation that follows the
death but the rebirth hasn'tcome yet, that's when that
hidden house is found. So it'sfound in the dark. So the night
house, and then on the cover,there's the red door. That red
(20:53):
door image is another one thatrepeats in a lot of fairy tales.
You know, there's like nothingreally good is ever behind the
red door.
You're gonna open the red door.You might find, you know, the
the bloody well or, you know,somebody's dead behind it or
something like that. But that'salways you know yes we have this
(21:14):
hidden house of healing where weknow we will become reborn kind
of like in a cocoon but we'vegot to find that red door that's
usually in the cellar and likethat's where the really gnarly
shit is and you don't get to getout of that nighthouse until
you've opened that red door. Soyeah, so that's where the title
came from. I am a weird authorin that I always come up with
(21:36):
the title of my books firstthat's like consistently true
And then I'm like, let's let thebook grow into this weird title
that I've come up with.
Wendy (21:46):
Very cool. I actually did that with with the my most
recent book. Yeah. The the titlewas there, and then yeah. Then
the story.
Yeah. So it's an unusual book,not in a bad way, but just in in
your approach and what you'reinviting readers to do. So it
would be helpful if you can kindof give a general overview on
(22:09):
what your hope is, how to usethis book, because you you talk
about two different ways toreally use this book. And if you
could just sort of give asummary of what that would look
like.
Danielle (22:22):
Yeah. So the structure of the book is essentially three
parts, and each of the threeparts has, say, three or four
chapters in each part. And eachchapter then has a story. So the
first part of the book, thefirst level of the nighthouse,
the hidden rooms and the wildskins, my intention for that
(22:46):
first third of the book waslike, let's let these stories be
very interesting, but notparticularly terrifying. Let let
some of them be maybe evenfamiliar.
Wendy (22:57):
Kinda ease the reader
Danielle (22:59):
into the process. Get in, and then we'll see what
happens. But then in writingthat first part and choosing the
different stories that would goin that first part, it all
magically aligned that theywould would have, like, the
magical garment in them, or theywere, like, these shape shifting
stories. So, Little Red RidingHood's Red Hood, for example, or
(23:21):
the shape shifters featherypelt. So there was a theme that
emerged as I was writing that.
So there's still, I think, themost palatable stories in the
book, but they all are bound bythis idea that there is this,
magical skin that we sometimeswear. So that's the first third
(23:42):
of the book. Then the middlethird, the bone cellar, that's
where the gnarly shit is. Sothat's we can look at that like
that's the red door. Okay.
Lot of those stories do have ared door in them. And so that's
where there's there's some deathand grief rituals. There's some
banishing and working withprotection rituals from this
(24:03):
really cool version ofBluebeard. And then the last
third of the book is the spirittower, which is kind of just the
weirdest. Like, it's it's thedream work.
It's the getting weird withtime, I call it time fuckery
sometimes I don't use thatphrase in the book but yeah it's
what I thought.
Wendy (24:20):
But you should.
Danielle (24:21):
I should yeah but I did it and so that's the
structure of the book in termsof how to use it each of the
stories has three differentrites or rituals. So sometimes
that's a spell. Sometimes that'sjust like a threshold crossing.
So there's varying levels ofexpression for those three
rites. And in writing it, likein writing all of my books, I
(24:42):
know that not everybody is goingto do all of these rites and
rituals that I hope that theydo, but I also know that that's
not the way it goes.
So it's totally fine to read thebook as I know a lot of people
have. You know, read the bookand read the stories. And all
you really need to do is afteryou've met one of these stories
(25:05):
for the first time, and thesecret is it's not really unique
to the stories that I chose. Soyou can really do this with any
fairy tale, with any myth, withany old story. Once you
encounter it, you just ask afterthe story's over, what's one
question that I still have?
Like, what do I still wonder nowthat the ever after has come,
(25:25):
the story's over? It's usuallysomething frustrating that a
character did or there's like aplot hole or something like
that. And so you name thatquestion and then you ask
yourself why was that myquestion? Like, how is that the
very question of my life rightnow? And it works every single
time.
Wendy (25:42):
Nice.
Danielle (25:43):
So even if they stop there, like, that's fine. They
don't have to cast the circle,build the altar, and do all of
the other things that are inthere. They can just do that and
that can give some time you caneven just do it with one story
and it'll give you enoughmedicine. So there's definitely
different levels of expressionin the book where you don't
necessarily have to go all in.But if you want to, you can.
Wendy (26:06):
Or you can come back to it another time when you feel
more ready. Yeah. So what do youthink it is about reading a
story that way, getting to theend of an old fairy tale, and
then asking that question. Like,what do you think you're tapping
into
Danielle (26:25):
Yeah.
Wendy (26:25):
By asking that question?
Danielle (26:28):
Yeah. Well, two things, I guess. The the first
thing is I really have come to afirm belief for me that these
stories have this hiddenintelligence, like an energetic
current that runs through thesestories. And that that energetic
current, just like, you know, ifanybody would be a practitioner
of energy medicine, the ideathat the medicine always goes
(26:51):
straight to the wound no matterwhat, so it doesn't really
matter like what thepractitioner is thinking and you
know, can't really screw it upand do it wrong. These stories
work in the same way where theyseem to go exactly where they
need to go.
When I'm in a circle of peopleand we all share those missing
pieces questions at the end,everybody's question is
different. Everybody comes tothis different epiphany from the
(27:15):
story that doesn't match anybodyelse's, even if they seem to be
kind of the same type of person.It still seems to be very unique
to them. So there is somethingkind of otherworldly that feels
like an energetic current,almost an electric current that
runs through these stories thatjust goes where it needs to go
every time. So there's that.
(27:36):
And then I think in another way,the stories are just like any
other oracle, you know, theoracle cards or the tarot or the
pendulum or whatever, the dream,whatever you use in your
practice, that just reallyreveals to you what you already
know. So, you know, when youwork with an oracle, it's just
kind of mirroring back to youthe hidden knowledge that was
(27:57):
there anyway. You just kind ofdidn't realize it until the
oracle showed you.
Wendy (28:03):
Okay. So I just wanna make sure I understand. So you
Mhmm. You read, let's say, TheRed Hood, Red Riding Hood.
Danielle (28:11):
Mhmm.
Wendy (28:11):
And the thing that you're stuck on is, like, I'm just I'm
drawing a blank. I I Yeah. Andlike, you you come up with
something that is justunsettling about, like Yeah. Why
did it go this way instead ofthat way? Or why did she say
this and not this or whatever?
Right. And you insinuated thatit it's it's hitting a wound.
Danielle (28:36):
Mhmm.
Wendy (28:37):
Or it's bumping up against a wounding of yours.
Danielle (28:41):
Yeah.
Wendy (28:41):
So, like, you're unconscious of speaking through
that question or thatfrustration you have with the
story?
Danielle (28:47):
Yeah. It doesn't have to be a wound. It sometime it
often is, but it could be, like,just a worry or attention or
some kind of an ache. Usually,the question that emerges, it
doesn't just have the it it haswhat I call the wish and the
worry wrapped inside of it. Soit's not just the achy bit, even
though I do think a lot of thetime that's the most important
(29:09):
bit is the achy bit, but itoften has the wish or the desire
in that same question.
So for example, I did just workwith the Red Hood this past
weekend with a group of women.And one of the questions that
came out was like, why didn'tthe grandmother protect herself?
Like she lived in this woods herwhole life. Like did she not
know that there were wolvesaround that might come into her
(29:31):
house?
Wendy (29:31):
Great question.
Danielle (29:36):
And so, you know, the the the wish would be, you know,
to to maybe recall the thewisdom of the grandmothers or to
to be able to be vigilant orsomething like that depending on
what that person'sinterpretation of the the
question was. Then the worry islike, you know, what if I'm
missing something? You know,what if given everything I've
lived through in my life, I'mforgetting some important piece
(29:56):
of wisdom that I need to protectmyself? So so, you know, that's
kind of the starting point. Butthen, yeah, you can dig into
that worry about, like, what ifI'm not being vigilant enough or
what if I'm forgetting animportant part of my ancestral
wisdom and then, you know,figure out where to go from
there, whether it's a a healingspell that needs to be cast
(30:19):
something a bit more mundane.
I mean, therapy or sometimeshaving a conversation with the
grandmother, like something likethat. So the direction that you
go after that is there'sinfinite possibilities. But
yeah, that initial question hasoften the wish and the worry
wrapped right inside of it.
Wendy (30:38):
That's very cool. And I I love just that that sort of
indirect but very direct way ofgetting there.
Danielle (30:46):
Yeah. Yeah. And how it works, it works every time. I
still don't really know why. Ihaven't really found anything
else in my witchcraft that likeworks for everybody in a circle
every time and that really does.
Even the even the the witchadjacents or people that don't
identify as witches.
Wendy (31:07):
But that speaks to the power of story. Mhmm. Especially
these ancient stories. Right?
Danielle (31:13):
Yeah.
Wendy (31:14):
That, like you were saying, I guess, the origin is a
giant mystery, but they'reuniversal. They're universal
stories, I guess. And and atleast the themes show up around
the world.
Danielle (31:28):
Yeah.
Wendy (31:28):
Like, archetypes.
Danielle (31:30):
Yeah. Right. The archetypes, even the even the
plotline sometimes is verysimilar in these in these
strange ways. So, yeah, I justlove thinking about, like, why
and how could the HandlessMaiden exist in Germany and
Africa and it's the same exactplot. And it's a weird plot too.
(31:52):
It's not like it's not a typicalhero's journey, I don't think.
And there's a Jungian idea thatthe stories originated in
somebody's dream. So, you know,when there was no television or
anything else to talk about,we'd wake up like we still do
today and be like, you're notgonna believe what I dreamt
about. And, you know, that waswhispered down the lane for then
(32:12):
centuries, if not thousands ofyears, and it became this fairy
tale that we know now. So, ofcourse, we don't know if that's
true, but I do love that idea.
I hope that that's true.
Wendy (32:24):
I yeah. I'd like to hope that's true too. There's a a
weird kind of sense it makes.
Danielle (32:29):
Yeah. Yeah. I think so. And then, you know, I also
love that we still I mean, eveneven fairy tale nerds like me
still kind of have this embodiedsense of dismissal with the the
phrase fairy tale. There's,like, you know, just something
(32:51):
it's not like I love fairytales.
This is the heart of my work,but if I'm scripting the,
description for a workshop orsomething, I'm very careful
about using the phrase fairytale because I know that there's
a lot of there's something in usthat doesn't take it seriously
and that that's necessary. It'snecessary that part of us
(33:12):
doesn't take it seriously andlooks at it as if it is just a
children's story. That's howthese stories were able to
survive through throughout timesin history when they would have
otherwise been hunted or oroutlawed because they had spells
and rites tucked in witch'scharts tucked inside of them,
but they were just children'sstories. So you know?
Wendy (33:33):
So disguised, basically.
Danielle (33:35):
Yeah. And, likely not on purpose. And so going back to
this hidden intelligence that'sin these stories, they kind of
knew how to get away. Like,that's the way I look at it
anyway, is it wasn't necessarilycollective agreement among the
weaver women and the midwives.They were going to just like,
(33:56):
let's pretend these are reallychildren's stories.
I don't know that that happened.Part of me hopes that that
happened. But that they wereperceived in that way allowed
the stories to surviverelatively intact. Like, you
know, the I I can see this inmyself when I when I go to
revision a story, like, let'ssay there's an ending that
doesn't sit well with me, and Iwanna make it a little bit
(34:19):
different. It the the storyreally resists that.
There's, like, this thisfidelity that you have to have
to the story that seems to betrue more of these fairy tales
than it does of, say, a myth oranother type of old story. So,
yeah, I really feel that theyare alive. I know that that's
(34:39):
weird for a lot of people tounderstand. Not you, but Yeah. A
lot of people.
Wendy (34:44):
No. I I I yeah. I feel I'm a I feel like I'm always
giving that caveat too. I knowthis is weird, but hang in there
with me. Yeah.
But just consider. But yeah. Imean, just just think about how
(35:06):
that story has been such a apotent tool in human history
since we've had language. Right?That's how we've taught
important things
Danielle (35:19):
to
Wendy (35:19):
each other, how we've remembered our ancestral lines,
how we remember medicines, howwe remember dangers, and
Danielle (35:27):
Right.
Wendy (35:27):
Things to celebrate, things about the natural world.
Danielle (35:31):
Yeah. And that we dream like, that's what I come
down to when people discount thepower of story. I'm like, we
dream in stories. Like, everydream is a plot line. You know?
When when you're talking about adream to somebody and you're
like, so I'm walking down theroad. I mean, that's the
exposition. That's the once upona time, then you always get to a
crisis, which is the climax. Andthen you might not remember or
(35:55):
get the resolution or thelicense at the end, but
sometimes you do. And there'sthis whole narrative arc in a
dream that happens when we'resleeping.
So, you know, our brain istelling us stories.
Wendy (36:07):
So, yeah, what is your relationship with dreaming?
Danielle (36:11):
Oh, I'm a huge dream nerd. Yeah. Yes. Dreams are
probably, like, my primarynavigation system. And so Yeah.
If I'm in a place I call, like,a dream dry chapter of my life,
which I forget which of the thedream nerds that I follow. I
(36:32):
think doctor Steven doctorSteven Eisenstadt, I think, is
the one who said this where,like, if you if you are in a
dream dry period where you younormally remember your dreams,
but you aren't for severalmonths or whatever, that you're
just on the cusp of this great,like, personal initiation
because you don't reallyrecognize yourself in the dream.
(36:53):
So something that I believe thatisn't part of my my work but I
do believe this Eric Wargo isone of the dream nerds. He's not
witchy in any way. He's ascientist but he's his theory is
like we we our our brains arekind of pre metabolizing the
future through our dreams allthe time.
And so every dream in his theoryis prophetic, and you just have
(37:17):
to dig out the symbols.
Wendy (37:19):
And so This is a scientist guy saying this.
Danielle (37:21):
Yeah. Doctor Eric Wargo. Yeah. He studies the
brain. It would be more likeneurology than witchcraft.
But it is so cool. I mean, youwould love it because,
especially as a writer, hislatest book is all about artists
and writers and how we'reessentially, like, we are
predicting the future when wewrite. That that's it's coming
(37:42):
from our own future self. And soand so if in your dreams, you
are your future self. If yourfuture self is so weird because
you've become someone so new,you wouldn't recognize them.
And so you don't remember yourdreams because they're coming
from future you who's just sodifferent post initiation. We
(38:02):
don't know necessarily what'sgonna happen there to make you
that version of yourself. Butwhen you're in the dream dry
period that it might just be,you know, who you are in that
dream is kind of inconsistentwith who you believe yourself to
be with now when you're awake.
Wendy (38:18):
And so It's a readiness thing. You're not quite
Danielle (38:21):
Yeah. Right.
Wendy (38:22):
You're not
Danielle (38:22):
really gonna remember. Mhmm.
Wendy (38:23):
Or you're going through menopause.
Danielle (38:25):
Yes. That too. Yes. That too. I mean, talk about
becoming somebody totally new.
Oh, yeah.
Wendy (38:40):
Yeah. Or actually yeah. Like, maybe more more you.
Danielle (38:46):
True version. Yeah.
Wendy (38:48):
Yeah. A more you version of you.
Danielle (38:50):
That's Yeah.
Wendy (38:51):
That's what I'd like to think. I could be blowing smoke
up my own ass, but but I'd liketo think that.
Danielle (38:57):
Yeah. I hope so. I'm, like, in it. Are you? Oh.
I am in it. Yeah.
Wendy (39:07):
It'll get better.
Danielle (39:08):
Yes. Thank you.
Wendy (39:10):
It'll get better. Maybe your memory. I seem to have lost
mine. Anyway, so yes. So, yes,the power of story.
While you were talking aboutdreams Mhmm. Just now, I was
thinking about how how verydreamlike fairy tales are.
Danielle (39:33):
Right. Yeah.
Wendy (39:34):
I hadn't really thought of it until just now, unless you
already said it, and I it didn'treally click in my brain parts.
But
Danielle (39:42):
No. I don't think so. But I mean, it yeah. It's like,
what came first? Did you know,do we dream in this fairytale
way because of fairytales orwere fairytales somebody's
dream?
Yeah. Exactly. Or both. Or both.
Wendy (39:58):
Yeah. Yeah. No. I love that. Thing that makes a fairy
tale so different than, say, amurder mystery.
Like, if you're gonna readfiction, you read a fairy tale
versus a murder mystery as anadult, let's say
Danielle (40:15):
Yeah.
Wendy (40:16):
Is the symbolism. Right. If you think about it, right,
because a murder mystery, it'slike a a little slice of
everyday life. And some some badshit happens, and then a bunch
of police come, and then theytry to solve it, and then you're
fall whatever. I don't know.
Danielle (40:32):
But Right. I don't
Wendy (40:33):
know why I'm I'm like the the king of bad analogies, and
this is but but the power ofsymbolism. I mean, we're kind of
touching on this a little bitwhen you're talking about Carl
Jung and the archetypes. But doyou have any thoughts on just
how rich the symbolic world isand why there's so much magic in
(40:59):
that world?
Danielle (41:00):
Oh. I mean, the the thing that's coming up, my
initial response was no. I don'tbelieve you. I mean, I really I
I have believed since I wheredid I come up with this? I don't
know.
(41:21):
Maybe when I was getting intowhen I was getting into
witchcraft and, know, had hadmaybe a few spells that worked
and, you know, kind of wanted toknow why. And I think I've
always had a kind of healthyskepticism and I, one of my
favorite mantras is like,witches always want proof. Like,
(41:41):
you know, we want proof that themagic is real. We, you know, we
cast spells because the lastspell worked. So, you know, if
you get to a place where it'sboring and it's not working
anymore, then you would stopdoing it.
So I was I really love this bookcalled Where Science and Magic
Meet by doctor Serena RoneyDugle. I think it's pretty old
(42:03):
at this point. But, like, Iremember reading that, and and
she was very skeptical andscientific in trying to pick
pick out these different reasonswhy not just magic works, but
also, like, psychic activity andenergy healing and all of these
different kind of mysticalpractices that are ancient.
Sounds a
Wendy (42:21):
cool book. Yeah.
Danielle (42:22):
Yeah. It is. It's a very cool book. And I think in
that book, she talks about thisdance between the the implicate
realm and the explicate realmand, like, you know, that the
implicate realm is what'shidden. So ancestors, fairy, the
other world, even maybealternate timelines, like
(42:44):
anything that we would say ismaybe there and also bizarre and
less provable by science, thateverything originates there.
And then it gets made manifestin the explicate realm that we
can see. So thinking about thishidden original birth place for
(43:04):
everything as being like theseat of magic. And so, you know,
if we are talking collectiveunconscious and where these
different symbols might live, Iwould say it's there. And then
it gets made manifest in thisexplicate realm where, you know,
we try to make sense of ourlives and go to work and fall in
love and do all of those thingsthat we do.
Wendy (43:27):
Exactly. Yeah. No. I mean, you just that that's a
very shamanic description.
Danielle (43:31):
Yeah. It's
Wendy (43:33):
Of the unseen world because to me that is the world
of of information, and theinformation is perceived
symbolically.
Danielle (43:41):
Right.
Wendy (43:42):
And those symbols all have stories to tell.
Danielle (43:44):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy (43:47):
And so it's it's as if these fairy tale authors are
tapping into the unseen realmand pulling these stories out,
or maybe these stories arelanding in their psyche somehow
in a dream or or in some kind ofaltered state, perhaps?
Danielle (44:07):
Yeah. It's I always recommend to people that are
getting into storytelling, like,speak it out loud as much as you
can. Like, you know, writing isstill cool, and I get that.
Yeah. But when you tell thestory out loud, it's different
every time.
Like, every time, it's like atotally new, like, not just
(44:27):
encounter with the story, like,totally new, like, falling in
love with the story. Like, awhole relationship life cycle
goes on when you're telling thatstory even if you told you've
told it 10,000 times, and you dohave a sense that there the
other world is speaking throughyou. Like, not the whole time
because you're getting, youknow, like, did I forget to tell
(44:48):
that part? And, you know, you doall that.
Wendy (44:50):
Did I use the right tense?
Danielle (44:51):
Yeah. Exactly. But but you always have at least one and
usually more moments where youjust, like, feel yourself
speaking, and you're like, Idon't even know where this is
coming from. You'll say a wordyou never say, you'll start to
describe a character in a waythat you just had never thought
of before. So it's thatspontaneous telling of the story
(45:14):
I think that you know the otherworld's always there, I think,
and trying to come throughstory, even if you're writing
them down.
But when you're speaking outloud, you get that proof in the
moment that that is true. And Ithink you, we all need that as
storytellers, like, proof that,like, oh, this really isn't
coming just out of me. I am notthe source of this thing. I'm
(45:38):
the channel for this thing.
Wendy (45:39):
Wouldn't it be cool if we could just access that as adults
with ease. Yes. Because there'sso much wisdom there. Right? As
kids, we're open to it all thetime.
We live there.
Danielle (45:53):
Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting that you say that
because, like, you know, whenwe're kids, we have all well, we
encounter all the wounds aboutfear of being seen and, you
know, is the art worth anythingand all of that? Then that gets
amplified and repeatedthroughout adulthood. But
there's something about havingit witnessed that seems
(46:14):
important.
Having the story witnessed thatI think, like, you know, when
you're a child, you don't reallycare who's listening to you, but
then you have
Wendy (46:24):
that Exactly. Yeah.
Danielle (46:24):
Original wound of, like.
Wendy (46:26):
Criticism. Being too loud
Danielle (46:28):
or Yeah.
Wendy (46:29):
Exactly. And then that that just dampens the works.
Danielle (46:32):
Yeah. And then there's that fear of having it
witnessed, and the witnessing isthe thing that makes it come
alive, I think, because thestories want to move. They want
to travel, so they want to beheard
Wendy (46:43):
by Yeah. It's heartbreaking, isn't it? That we
do that to ourselves.
Danielle (46:48):
Yes.
Wendy (46:48):
That we do it to each other, I should say.
Danielle (46:50):
Yes. Yeah. It is. I know. So many so many people all
hear that I'm 45 and they'll beolder than me and saying, like,
oh, I could never be an artistor I'm not creative and, you
know, this painting is stupid.
And like, no.
Wendy (47:11):
Good. I'm glad you're saying that because that's
that's that's sad. And it's nottrue.
Danielle (47:17):
Sad. It's not true. I know. Sometimes it's beautiful,
you know, whatever it is they'reshowing. It's like, look at this
amazing thing that I created,and then they'll be like, but
it's worth absolutely nothing.
Wendy (47:31):
Oh, what does that even mean? Right?
Danielle (47:33):
Right. Right. I know.
Wendy (47:35):
So do you have an example of how a story in your book has
either helped you or someoneelse just to kinda give
listeners an idea of of how thiscan work? Like a simple example.
Danielle (47:51):
Example. Well so there's a there's the story that
I referenced before that I saidis one of the gnarlier ones
that's in the bone cellar. Ithink in the book, I call it the
mage's bird, but the originaltitle is Fitcher's bird. So it's
the German collected Germanversion of Bluebeard. And it's a
gnarly I mean, Bluebeard'sgnarly anyway.
(48:13):
This is, like, a really gnarlyversion of Bluebeard. And it's
one of the few stories that I Ihad a group of people come to my
land last summer, and we justswam in this story for, like,
five days, and we did all ofthese different rituals around
this story. But it is very ofthe warrior archetype. So
(48:36):
there's a lot of thinking aboutin your life what you seem to
have been preparing for. Sogiven all of the trainings that
you've taken and thecertificates that you collect
and all of those things that wedo, And not just that, but the
the books that you read, ifyou've been training or
preparing for something, giventhe patterns that are in those
things that you've done andstudied, what might that great
(48:59):
spiritual battle be?
Wendy (49:01):
Nice.
Danielle (49:02):
And so, you know, that's the warrior archetype,
but that that story of themage's bird, it's like that. You
know? Unlike the more commonversion of Bluebeard, the French
version that's more familiarwhere the youngest sister kind
of is very victim the wholetime. In this version, she's,
like, got the plan the entiretime, the youngest sister. She's
(49:23):
like, we're gonna take this guydown, and she disguises herself.
There's this ritual drama that'shoused inside of it. And then at
the end, she essentially, like,burns his house down with him in
it. And not only that, but allof the people that knew what he
was doing murdering these women,they get burned alive too. Damn.
(49:43):
Okay.
This really epic ending at theend. But the whole time, it's
like about the strategy. Solike, I know that that that
helped a lot of people feel asense of empowerment at a time
when the world story wasdefinitely in this place of
chaos and lack of clarity andwhere were we going. And, you
know, not that it's not stillthere. I was
Wendy (50:04):
gonna say was. Yeah.
Danielle (50:07):
But, you know, but if we think, like, back to to, you
know, 2024, the vibe was thisvery peculiar, like, you know,
we could go that way or we couldgo that way.
Wendy (50:17):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was the the before.
Danielle (50:20):
Yeah. It felt like a crossroads moment, and it felt
for a lot of people that werewith me anyway, like, defeating.
You know, that was sort of thewhat everybody was vocalizing
is, like, how do I plan for mylife when I don't have any idea
what the world's gonna look likein six months. So yeah. So
harnessing and then amplifyingthat warrior archetype through
(50:41):
that story was was healing eventhough it is a gnarly story, and
we weren't burning anybodyalive.
When we were here, there wasstill this sense of, like, what
if we have the plan? You know,what might the plan be? Yeah.
Wendy (50:57):
Yeah, that is what you just described is the power of
story.
Danielle (51:01):
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Archetypes are like these these
kind of energetic bubbles ofpower and meaning. So if you can
tap into certain archetypesthrough story, you can do it in
other ways too, but throughstories kind of the easiest way
because we're surrounded bystories all the time.
So the archetypes are alive inthe Netflix series that
(51:23):
everyone's watching or, youknow, doesn't have to be in a
mystical fairy tale. They'restill very much alive in the
modern stories. So you can tapinto that energy that you need
when you need it. And usuallythat's not a conscious decision.
It's like, you know, the Netflixseries that you're watching.
It's because you need a littlebit of that archetype in people.
(51:43):
Yes,
Wendy (51:46):
we do.
Danielle (51:51):
And so there's always, like since you brought up murder
mysteries, you know, there's alot of conversations around,
like, why women especially,like, love to watch the murder
mystery documentary.
Wendy (52:00):
True Crime. Yep.
Danielle (52:01):
True crime. And it's like, it's preparation. That's
part warrior bird woman fromthat story. It's it's it would
be weird if there were I feellike it's weird when men love
watching the true crimedocumentary. When women watch
it, it's because we want toknow.
Yeah.
Wendy (52:18):
We're strategizing. Exactly. Mostly about what not
to do. Yeah. Jesus.
So if someone would like tolearn more about you or your
work or hang out in the HagSchool, how would they go about
(52:40):
doing that?
Danielle (52:41):
Yeah. So, website, danielledolesky.com is, like, my
main website, and then thehagschool.com has its own
virtual spot to live, but all ofthe things are there, and I hope
they do.
Wendy (52:57):
I hope they do too. So this has been fun. Thanks so
much for coming on.
Danielle (53:03):
Yeah. Thanks so much for having me.
Wendy (53:07):
Alright. Are you ready to get your witch on? You can learn
more about Danielle and herofferings at danielledelsky.com
or join the Hag School atthehagschool.com. Thank you for
listening and for hanging inthere with me since 2018. I
wanna thank Stephanie andJohanna with every cell of my
(53:28):
body for their ongoing supportof the podcast.
Your support is so appreciated.Not only does it help alleviate
some of the costs of producingeach episode, which averages
about seven to eight hours each,and is the reason why I can only
put out an episode every threeor so weeks. But it also tells
(53:49):
me that you'd like me to keepgoing. So thank you. If you're
enjoying the podcast and you'dlike to help out by making a
donation of any amount, pleaselook for the support this
podcast link at the bottom ofthe show notes.
Getting additional support couldhelp make it possible to release
even more episodes morefrequently, which means I
(54:10):
wouldn't have to turn down somany potential amazing guests,
which are quite a few. I'll beback in a few weeks where we'll
be traveling into the liminalrealms of shamanism and lucid
dreaming with a lovely, highlyexperienced mother and daughter
team. Until next time.
You're listening to Lucid Cafe. I'm your host, Wendy
Halley. Hello, and welcome toseason eight of Lucid Cafe, a
(00:35):
podcast exploring healing,consciousness, and the
complexities of being human. Andwhat a season it's gonna be.
Just to give you a taste ofwhat's to come, we'll be
exploring dreamscapes andliminal spaces and of course
shamanism, astrologicalperspectives, the amazing ways
(00:56):
in which women are finding theirpower.
We'll take a deep dive in toclairvoyant readings. And in
today's episode, we'll bedelving into the mystical
healing power contained in fairytales. I also forgot to mention
at the end of last season thatI've crossed the 100 episode
threshold. Holy shit. Today'sepisode is number 101.
(01:20):
How about that? I also wanted tolet you know that I'm offering a
free webinar on Saturday,11/08/2025 called entering the
age of possibility, reframingthis challenging time, where
I'll draw upon indigenousprophecies, a variety of
shamanic visionary experiencesI've had, Polynesian wisdom
(01:42):
tradition, and the insightsexplored in my new visionary
fiction novel Raven's Daughterin order to offer a powerful
reframing of our currentreality. One that reveals the
hidden potential within thedisruption. If you'd like to
learn more or sign up I'll leavea link in the show notes.
Alright so on with the episode.
(02:04):
My guest Danielle Dulsky is afellow heathen visionary,
painter and word witch. I lovethat she calls herself a
heathen. She's the author ofSeasons of Moon and Flame, Women
Most Wild, and The Holy Wild.She teaches internationally and
(02:26):
has facilitated circles,embodiment trainings, communal
spell work, and seasonal ritualssince 2007. She is the founder
of the Hag School and believesin the emerging power of wild
collectives and sudden circlesof curious dreamers, cunning
witches, and rebellious artistsin healing our ailing world.
(02:48):
In this conversation, wediscussed Danielle's new book,
The Nighthouse, Folklore, FairyTales, Rites, and Magic for the
Wise and Wild, and how thehidden intelligence embedded in
these ancient tales ofmysterious origins can offer a
potent and transformative windowinto ourselves. So please enjoy
(03:09):
my conversation with DanielleZilski. Danielle, thanks so much
for joining me.
Danielle (03:19):
Thanks so much for having me. So happy to be here.
Wendy (03:22):
So you have a new book out, the nighthouse, folklore,
fairy tales, rights, and magicfor the wise and wild. Yeah.
It's a very inviting cover justright off the bat. It was for me
anyway. They did a good job ofcreating the mood because your
writing style is superenchanting.
Danielle (03:45):
Thank you.
Wendy (03:47):
And given the topic, or I should say, given the the
territory you're covering, itmakes sense that you would write
in this very enchanted way. So,before we get into your book,
I'd like to learn a little bitmore about you because I
Danielle (04:04):
Mhmm.
Wendy (04:04):
I don't know much about you. So the Hag School, tell me
about the Hag School.
Danielle (04:09):
Yeah. Yeah. So the HAG school was born in 2019, and I
was actually just reflecting onthat period in my life. It was
like 2019 where I really didhave this kind of compulsion to
start moving some of my workvirtual. And I didn't really
(04:34):
understand why, because I didn'treally like teaching virtually
at the time.
Just, you know, it was all aboutthe real life circles, and
people would come to my house.And I was teaching witchcraft
out of my house, yoga out of myhouse for, I don't know, five
years before that. So
Wendy (04:51):
So you did you did you feel the coming pandemic on this
very ethereal level, you think,maybe?
Danielle (04:57):
I think I did. I it I didn't feel that there was
anything very ominous coming atthat point. It was just kind of
like, you know all of thesedifferent forces were lining up
there, I was not techie, I meanI know many of us weren't, but I
was not as techie as I am now atthat time. And I had suddenly
(05:18):
had this assistant who, youknow, was very well versed in
all things technology, buildingwebsites, and online courses,
and all of that stuff.
Wendy (05:27):
Helpful. Yeah.
Danielle (05:27):
She yeah. So she so she just started doing it.
Without her, I don't know what Iwould have done. Would have just
hidden my cave, when COVIDhappened. But yeah.
So the Hag School was born outof not only that, but also,
having connected with all ofthese different very skilled
teachers in witchcraft,storytelling, conscious dance,
(05:50):
all of these other areas thatwere not my strong suit and
feeling like, oh, well, I'mpretty good at creating
communities, so let's see whathappens if I create this Hague
School that's like this virtualplace where people can come to
learn and there's nothingnecessarily binding and hidden
(06:12):
about it. And every teachercould just kind of do their own
thing. So that was how itoriginated. And then, you know,
COVID happened in March 2020. Ihad a one of my books was coming
out in March 2020.
So it just had this bigclimactic
Wendy (06:28):
Great timing. Yeah.
Danielle (06:29):
All of my work falling apart and being reborn within
the space of a couple of months.And it just really seemed like
the hag school was one of thoseways where the witch stays a
step ahead, you know, even ifshe's not totally conscious of
how and why she's doing that.So, yeah. So it's because, you
(06:49):
know, it's grown a lot sincethen, but that's how it started.
And it's still a place where alot of different witches can
come to learn from otherwitches.
And we do have real life thingsnow, which is nice, but there's
still the virtual option so wecan reach around the world. So
yeah.
Wendy (07:07):
Cool. That's very cool. So would you I mean, you
consider yourself a witch? I do.Okay.
Mhmm. How did that was thissomething you were born into, or
did it did it enter your lifelater?
Danielle (07:20):
It entered my life later. I was definitely not born
into it. I was I usuallydescribe my childhood as this,
well when I'm talking about theweird product that is me. My
mother was a pretty strict bornagain Christian, especially when
I was younger. So I went to aborn again Christian school, I
went to church twice a week.
(07:42):
And then my dad was an atheistbiker, Vietnam vet.
Wendy (07:47):
What a couple.
Danielle (07:48):
Outlaw, criminal in some ways. So, yes, very
different people that and theywere married
Wendy (07:56):
Your mom probably had to do a lot of praying for him!
Danielle (07:59):
And me. They were married and divorced three
times, but, like, stayedtogether the whole time. So it
was very volatile
Wendy (08:05):
Wow.
Danielle (08:06):
Very dysfunctional childhood. But I was so I lived
with them half the time, andthen I was with my very cookies
in the oven grandparents theother half of the time when my
parents couldn't handle me andmy sister. So it was a bizarre
and peculiar upbringing, But I Ifeel like I wouldn't be as
(08:28):
willing to sort of test theboundaries and see how much I
can get away with in life if Iwasn't raised in that weird
dynamic. So witchcraft didn'treally enter into the equation
until after I graduated highschool. I moved to Ireland.
I think, again, you know, thewitch staying a step ahead even
(08:50):
when she's not trying to findsome sort of ancestral belonging
when I was raised in such aweird way. And I did find that
there. I lived there for alittle while and then came back
and, you know, met the guy, wentto art school, moved to Florida
from Pennsylvania. And themoment I name as, like, my big
(09:12):
witchcraft moment wasn't whenI'm, you know, hiding star
hawks, the spiral dance under mybed when I'm a teenager,
although I did that. It wasn'twhen I was trying to figure out
how to cast spells for the firsttime just in my kitchen with the
baby screaming in thebackground, although I did that.
It was a little bit later when Iwas around 25, so this was
really exactly twenty years agoprobably from right now, where
(09:37):
it's a middle of the nightmoment, and I'm nursing one of
my sons. And it's just one ofthose, like, lonely, why me
moments? And thinking about howspellcraft really makes me feel
more autonomous and powerful andsovereign than really anything
else I had done up until thatpoint, spiritually anyway. And I
(10:02):
was just looking at my baby andthinking about how I didn't want
him to have to hide anythingabout who he was and feeling a
little bit hypocritical abouthow I was really hiding that.
And part of the reason I washiding it is because wasn't just
because I didn't wanna be burnedat the stake.
It was because I didn't reallywanna have to explain myself.
Wendy (10:24):
I get that more than you know. Yeah.
Danielle (10:27):
I just didn't wanna have to talk about it. I I mean,
I still feel that way a lot ofthe time.
Wendy (10:32):
So I'm asking annoying questions about it. Yeah.
Danielle (10:35):
Yeah. Like, you know, if I go to parties and people
ask me what I do, I don't sayauthor because the next question
is always, well, what do youwrite about? And then I have to
talk about witchcraft. I don'treally like to do that with
people that aren't there. Soanyway, so anyway, I'm nursing
my baby, and I'm like, well, Idon't want him to have to hide
who he is, I'm so not gonna hideit anymore.
(10:56):
And I just decided, like, I'mnot gonna shout it from the
rooftops or anything, but I'mnot going to go to extra effort
to make other peoplecomfortable. And if I don't feel
like explaining myself, I justwon't. And and so that was the
moment that I name is like, youknow, maybe I had sensed and
identified as a witch beforethat, but that moment of feeling
(11:18):
like it might be witnessed byother people was sort of like
this great epiphany that Ireally think set me off on the
path that I've been walkingsince then.
Wendy (11:31):
You've and you literally stepped into that.
Danielle (11:35):
Yes.
Wendy (11:36):
That part of you.
Danielle (11:37):
Mhmm. Yeah. So, you know, after that, it was like,
if anybody would ask me if I wasa witch, I would say yes.
Because
Wendy (11:47):
it comes up a lot, like, when you're at the grocery
store. Hey. Are you a witch?
Danielle (11:51):
Well, no. I guess not when I'm at the grocery store. I
am heavily tattooed, though, soI do get questions about, like,
you know, what do the symbols onyour fingers mean?
Wendy (12:01):
Oh, okay. I gotcha. So curious folks will find out.
Danielle (12:07):
Yeah.
Wendy (12:08):
Yeah.
Danielle (12:08):
I mean, even yesterday, I was at this antique
store, and this the woman whowas there started just asking me
about, like, how to clearhaunted items. And I was like,
how does she know that I mightknow how to do that?
Wendy (12:22):
It's almost as if you have a neon sign over your head.
Danielle (12:26):
I guess.
Wendy (12:28):
Ask me weird shit!
Danielle (12:32):
Yeah. That's cool.
Wendy (12:36):
This is very cool. So I I imagine your life is very
colorful as a result. Yeah?
Danielle (12:42):
It is. It is colorful. It was, you know, after that
strange chapter in my life whenmy kids were very young, I there
was this great wounding, whichseems to be kind of like a
bizarre rite of passage that alot of witches experience that
came with my Saturn returnduring my late 20s where my
(13:02):
original witchcraft teacher whowas very like my mother and my
best friend at the same time.She just kind of like was the
great wounder of my life thatmade my entire family fall
apart. And so I moved back homethen to Pennsylvania and was
like, well, I'm never gonnateach witchcraft.
I'm like, I still won't hide it,but I'm not gonna teach
(13:25):
witchcraft. And that lastedabout five minutes. And then,
you know, I found this communitythat was very loving, welcoming,
incredibly liberal in all of theways that we want things to be
liberal anyway. And I was, I hada a covenant there, like within,
I don't know, two years aftermoving back home. So that was
(13:47):
now thirteen or so years ago.
And yeah, the rest is kind ofhistory. There's something
about, like, having it like,I've always looked at witchcraft
as being at least in part anart. I love the beauty of
crafting spells. I love buildingthe altar and all of those
things that might that that kindof aligned with my artist and
(14:08):
creative nature. And so there'ssomething about having it
witnessed that, like, makes itshine a little bit brighter.
So, you know, the the writing ofthe books and the, you know,
having people come together andcast spells and move through
rituals, that's been the theheart of what I would think my
my purpose or my calling is atleast for the last ten or
(14:32):
fifteen years. It's not No.
Wendy (14:36):
I imagine it's not easy, but you're doing it. That's
gotta feel that's gotta feelreally fulfilling.
Danielle (14:42):
Yeah.
Wendy (14:43):
And and you're probably I mean, I imagine you're serving a
lot of people and helping themconnect with their own inner
witches.
Danielle (14:51):
Yeah. Yeah. I hope so. It is. It's I've I'm always
grateful for, you know, when Italk to other people that are
thinking about leading reallife, I'm gonna say magical
experiences, and I know all ofthe common, like, fears and
trepidation around that.
And a lot of those things thatother people worry about and
(15:12):
maybe have even encountered, Ihaven't really encountered in my
work. Like, it's not like therearen't conflicts when there's a
bunch of women who cometogether.
Wendy (15:22):
There is that.
Danielle (15:23):
There are those, but, you know, enough to stop me from
doing it. I've definitely notencountered that. So, yeah, I do
feel really grateful that thesespontaneous communities that I'm
able to create, they they alwaysseem to work and be right and
feed people in the way that theyneed to be said.
Wendy (15:41):
Well, I think I mean, that would be a reflection on
you because if you're if you'refacilitating those processes,
then you're setting the tone,you're set you're kind of
creating a culture
Danielle (15:52):
Yeah.
Wendy (15:53):
Of openness around that. So it's it's yeah. That it it
that's how that works, I think.
Danielle (16:02):
Yeah. Yeah. I hope so. A lot of it feels lucky if I'm
being honest.
Wendy (16:09):
Well, but but we could go back to that kind of that part
of you that seems to have aknowing that you're not always
consciously aware of.
Danielle (16:20):
It's true. Right. It's true.
Wendy (16:22):
It makes perfect sense.
Danielle (16:23):
Yeah.
Wendy (16:26):
But for any of us who are, like, trying to to be
better or whatever Mhmm. It it'sit's a hard thing to kinda
surrender to that wise part ofourselves. I mean Yeah. And
trust that it's it's alwaysgonna be there and that we're
always gonna recognize it, butit works in such mysterious ways
(16:48):
and also very quiet ways. Right?
So we don't even know
Danielle (16:53):
Yeah. A lot of the times
Wendy (16:56):
What the fuck's going on?
Danielle (16:57):
Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Like our our wise and
future self is always trying tocall us toward them.
And that we, you know, if ifthat's us, that it's happening
just in our brain or in theethers or whatever, we don't
need to necessarily know all theins and outs of it, I guess. I'm
a somewhat controlling person,so I do Well,
Wendy (17:20):
I mean, who isn't really? I mean, really? Some of us more
than others for sure. But, yeah,one of the things I've I've
discovered through my ownpractice and my own direct
experiences is that it seemsthat you can only see this in
hindsight, but it seems thateverything is beautifully
orchestrated. Like, when youlook back, right, on the
(17:41):
trajectory of your life
Danielle (17:43):
Mhmm.
Wendy (17:43):
You can see that, like, oh, wow. Like, even that deep
wounding from this mentor
Danielle (17:50):
Yeah.
Wendy (17:50):
It if it wasn't for her, probably you wouldn't Yeah. Have
ended up where you are now.Right? I mean
Danielle (17:56):
Right. Exactly.
Wendy (17:58):
How freaking cool is that?
Danielle (17:59):
Yeah.
Wendy (18:00):
But in the moment, it's painful as hell, and you don't
you can't see that.
Danielle (18:04):
Right.
Wendy (18:06):
It's so hard to imagine that. I mean, all this terrible
shit that's happening isactually there's there might be
something to it.
Danielle (18:16):
There's some intelligence afoot. Yeah. That's
how I feel.
Wendy (18:19):
That's cool. Well, went off on a bit of a tangent there,
so I wanna get to your I wannaget to your new book. The title
itself is intriguing. Right? TheNighthouse.
Danielle (18:33):
Yeah.
Wendy (18:33):
So what do you mean by the knighthouse? What is that
symbolic of?
Danielle (18:38):
Yeah. So and even just going back to the cover, there's
certain images and fairy talesthat repeat even sometimes all
over the world. So, you know,there's there's just such this
this strange quality to orallytransmitted fairy tales. So, not
necessarily literary fairy talesthat were written and we know
(19:01):
who the author is but the orallytransmitted fairy tales that
were primarily collected by men,but we know they were
transmitted primarily by womenand that we still don't really
know where they came from. Likewe don't really know their
origins and there are thesecommon images that repeat
whether the fairy tale was youknow, there's a fairy tale of
(19:25):
the handless maiden for examplehas the most popular version is
the German version but there's aversion that's written in
Swahili that's almost the exactsame plot line from a very
different part of the world, butthe imagery is the same.
So I just fell in love with thatbecause I love, you know, the
(19:46):
oracles that seem to be there,and we don't really, like, like,
reading the birds or, you know,reading the trees and the
oracles that seem to beuniversal and where did they
come from. So the knighthouse isa common image in fairy tales.
It's sort of like, you know,Rapunzel's tower or the house of
the wild ones from the handlessmaiden or Baba Yaga's hut. It's
(20:10):
the woodland house or sometimesthe jungle house or the
initiatory cave that is alwaysfound when the main character is
in the middle of an initiation.So it's, you know, you never
find this hidden house ofhealing when everything's great.
You know, you find this hiddenhouse of healing either when
(20:31):
you're just in your depths, inthe void, like, you know, in our
modern lives when we're cryingon the bathroom floor, like when
you're in that middle phase ofan initiation that follows the
death but the rebirth hasn'tcome yet, that's when that
hidden house is found. So it'sfound in the dark. So the night
house, and then on the cover,there's the red door. That red
(20:53):
door image is another one thatrepeats in a lot of fairy tales.
You know, there's like nothingreally good is ever behind the
red door.
You're gonna open the red door.You might find, you know, the
the bloody well or, you know,somebody's dead behind it or
something like that. But that'salways you know yes we have this
(21:14):
hidden house of healing where weknow we will become reborn kind
of like in a cocoon but we'vegot to find that red door that's
usually in the cellar and likethat's where the really gnarly
shit is and you don't get to getout of that nighthouse until
you've opened that red door. Soyeah, so that's where the title
came from. I am a weird authorin that I always come up with
(21:36):
the title of my books firstthat's like consistently true
And then I'm like, let's let thebook grow into this weird title
that I've come up with.
Wendy (21:46):
Very cool. I actually did that with with the my most
recent book. Yeah. The the titlewas there, and then yeah. Then
the story.
Yeah. So it's an unusual book,not in a bad way, but just in in
your approach and what you'reinviting readers to do. So it
would be helpful if you can kindof give a general overview on
(22:09):
what your hope is, how to usethis book, because you you talk
about two different ways toreally use this book. And if you
could just sort of give asummary of what that would look
like.
Danielle (22:22):
Yeah. So the structure of the book is essentially three
parts, and each of the threeparts has, say, three or four
chapters in each part. And eachchapter then has a story. So the
first part of the book, thefirst level of the nighthouse,
the hidden rooms and the wildskins, my intention for that
(22:46):
first third of the book waslike, let's let these stories be
very interesting, but notparticularly terrifying. Let let
some of them be maybe evenfamiliar.
Wendy (22:57):
Kinda ease the reader
Danielle (22:59):
into the process. Get in, and then we'll see what
happens. But then in writingthat first part and choosing the
different stories that would goin that first part, it all
magically aligned that theywould would have, like, the
magical garment in them, or theywere, like, these shape shifting
stories. So, Little Red RidingHood's Red Hood, for example, or
(23:21):
the shape shifters featherypelt. So there was a theme that
emerged as I was writing that.
So there's still, I think, themost palatable stories in the
book, but they all are bound bythis idea that there is this,
magical skin that we sometimeswear. So that's the first third
(23:42):
of the book. Then the middlethird, the bone cellar, that's
where the gnarly shit is. Sothat's we can look at that like
that's the red door. Okay.
Lot of those stories do have ared door in them. And so that's
where there's there's some deathand grief rituals. There's some
banishing and working withprotection rituals from this
(24:03):
really cool version ofBluebeard. And then the last
third of the book is the spirittower, which is kind of just the
weirdest. Like, it's it's thedream work.
It's the getting weird withtime, I call it time fuckery
sometimes I don't use thatphrase in the book but yeah it's
what I thought.
Wendy (24:20):
But you should.
Danielle (24:21):
I should yeah but I did it and so that's the
structure of the book in termsof how to use it each of the
stories has three differentrites or rituals. So sometimes
that's a spell. Sometimes that'sjust like a threshold crossing.
So there's varying levels ofexpression for those three
rites. And in writing it, likein writing all of my books, I
(24:42):
know that not everybody is goingto do all of these rites and
rituals that I hope that theydo, but I also know that that's
not the way it goes.
So it's totally fine to read thebook as I know a lot of people
have. You know, read the bookand read the stories. And all
you really need to do is afteryou've met one of these stories
(25:05):
for the first time, and thesecret is it's not really unique
to the stories that I chose. Soyou can really do this with any
fairy tale, with any myth, withany old story. Once you
encounter it, you just ask afterthe story's over, what's one
question that I still have?
Like, what do I still wonder nowthat the ever after has come,
(25:25):
the story's over? It's usuallysomething frustrating that a
character did or there's like aplot hole or something like
that. And so you name thatquestion and then you ask
yourself why was that myquestion? Like, how is that the
very question of my life rightnow? And it works every single
time.
Wendy (25:42):
Nice.
Danielle (25:43):
So even if they stop there, like, that's fine. They
don't have to cast the circle,build the altar, and do all of
the other things that are inthere. They can just do that and
that can give some time you caneven just do it with one story
and it'll give you enoughmedicine. So there's definitely
different levels of expressionin the book where you don't
necessarily have to go all in.But if you want to, you can.
Wendy (26:06):
Or you can come back to it another time when you feel
more ready. Yeah. So what do youthink it is about reading a
story that way, getting to theend of an old fairy tale, and
then asking that question. Like,what do you think you're tapping
into
Danielle (26:25):
Yeah.
Wendy (26:25):
By asking that question?
Danielle (26:28):
Yeah. Well, two things, I guess. The the first
thing is I really have come to afirm belief for me that these
stories have this hiddenintelligence, like an energetic
current that runs through thesestories. And that that energetic
current, just like, you know, ifanybody would be a practitioner
of energy medicine, the ideathat the medicine always goes
(26:51):
straight to the wound no matterwhat, so it doesn't really
matter like what thepractitioner is thinking and you
know, can't really screw it upand do it wrong. These stories
work in the same way where theyseem to go exactly where they
need to go.
When I'm in a circle of peopleand we all share those missing
pieces questions at the end,everybody's question is
different. Everybody comes tothis different epiphany from the
(27:15):
story that doesn't match anybodyelse's, even if they seem to be
kind of the same type of person.It still seems to be very unique
to them. So there is somethingkind of otherworldly that feels
like an energetic current,almost an electric current that
runs through these stories thatjust goes where it needs to go
every time. So there's that.
(27:36):
And then I think in another way,the stories are just like any
other oracle, you know, theoracle cards or the tarot or the
pendulum or whatever, the dream,whatever you use in your
practice, that just reallyreveals to you what you already
know. So, you know, when youwork with an oracle, it's just
kind of mirroring back to youthe hidden knowledge that was
(27:57):
there anyway. You just kind ofdidn't realize it until the
oracle showed you.
Wendy (28:03):
Okay. So I just wanna make sure I understand. So you
Mhmm. You read, let's say, TheRed Hood, Red Riding Hood.
Danielle (28:11):
Mhmm.
Wendy (28:11):
And the thing that you're stuck on is, like, I'm just I'm
drawing a blank. I I Yeah. Andlike, you you come up with
something that is justunsettling about, like Yeah. Why
did it go this way instead ofthat way? Or why did she say
this and not this or whatever?
Right. And you insinuated thatit it's it's hitting a wound.
Danielle (28:36):
Mhmm.
Wendy (28:37):
Or it's bumping up against a wounding of yours.
Danielle (28:41):
Yeah.
Wendy (28:41):
So, like, you're unconscious of speaking through
that question or thatfrustration you have with the
story?
Danielle (28:47):
Yeah. It doesn't have to be a wound. It sometime it
often is, but it could be, like,just a worry or attention or
some kind of an ache. Usually,the question that emerges, it
doesn't just have the it it haswhat I call the wish and the
worry wrapped inside of it. Soit's not just the achy bit, even
though I do think a lot of thetime that's the most important
(29:09):
bit is the achy bit, but itoften has the wish or the desire
in that same question.
So for example, I did just workwith the Red Hood this past
weekend with a group of women.And one of the questions that
came out was like, why didn'tthe grandmother protect herself?
Like she lived in this woods herwhole life. Like did she not
know that there were wolvesaround that might come into her
(29:31):
house?
Wendy (29:31):
Great question.
Danielle (29:36):
And so, you know, the the the wish would be, you know,
to to maybe recall the thewisdom of the grandmothers or to
to be able to be vigilant orsomething like that depending on
what that person'sinterpretation of the the
question was. Then the worry islike, you know, what if I'm
missing something? You know,what if given everything I've
lived through in my life, I'mforgetting some important piece
(29:56):
of wisdom that I need to protectmyself? So so, you know, that's
kind of the starting point. Butthen, yeah, you can dig into
that worry about, like, what ifI'm not being vigilant enough or
what if I'm forgetting animportant part of my ancestral
wisdom and then, you know,figure out where to go from
there, whether it's a a healingspell that needs to be cast
(30:19):
something a bit more mundane.
I mean, therapy or sometimeshaving a conversation with the
grandmother, like something likethat. So the direction that you
go after that is there'sinfinite possibilities. But
yeah, that initial question hasoften the wish and the worry
wrapped right inside of it.
Wendy (30:38):
That's very cool. And I I love just that that sort of
indirect but very direct way ofgetting there.
Danielle (30:46):
Yeah. Yeah. And how it works, it works every time. I
still don't really know why. Ihaven't really found anything
else in my witchcraft that likeworks for everybody in a circle
every time and that really does.
Even the even the the witchadjacents or people that don't
identify as witches.
Wendy (31:07):
But that speaks to the power of story. Mhmm. Especially
these ancient stories. Right?
Danielle (31:13):
Yeah.
Wendy (31:14):
That, like you were saying, I guess, the origin is a
giant mystery, but they'reuniversal. They're universal
stories, I guess. And and atleast the themes show up around
the world.
Danielle (31:28):
Yeah.
Wendy (31:28):
Like, archetypes.
Danielle (31:30):
Yeah. Right. The archetypes, even the even the
plotline sometimes is verysimilar in these in these
strange ways. So, yeah, I justlove thinking about, like, why
and how could the HandlessMaiden exist in Germany and
Africa and it's the same exactplot. And it's a weird plot too.
(31:52):
It's not like it's not a typicalhero's journey, I don't think.
And there's a Jungian idea thatthe stories originated in
somebody's dream. So, you know,when there was no television or
anything else to talk about,we'd wake up like we still do
today and be like, you're notgonna believe what I dreamt
about. And, you know, that waswhispered down the lane for then
(32:12):
centuries, if not thousands ofyears, and it became this fairy
tale that we know now. So, ofcourse, we don't know if that's
true, but I do love that idea.
I hope that that's true.
Wendy (32:24):
I yeah. I'd like to hope that's true too. There's a a
weird kind of sense it makes.
Danielle (32:29):
Yeah. Yeah. I think so. And then, you know, I also
love that we still I mean, eveneven fairy tale nerds like me
still kind of have this embodiedsense of dismissal with the the
phrase fairy tale. There's,like, you know, just something
(32:51):
it's not like I love fairytales.
This is the heart of my work,but if I'm scripting the,
description for a workshop orsomething, I'm very careful
about using the phrase fairytale because I know that there's
a lot of there's something in usthat doesn't take it seriously
and that that's necessary. It'snecessary that part of us
(33:12):
doesn't take it seriously andlooks at it as if it is just a
children's story. That's howthese stories were able to
survive through throughout timesin history when they would have
otherwise been hunted or oroutlawed because they had spells
and rites tucked in witch'scharts tucked inside of them,
but they were just children'sstories. So you know?
Wendy (33:33):
So disguised, basically.
Danielle (33:35):
Yeah. And, likely not on purpose. And so going back to
this hidden intelligence that'sin these stories, they kind of
knew how to get away. Like,that's the way I look at it
anyway, is it wasn't necessarilycollective agreement among the
weaver women and the midwives.They were going to just like,
(33:56):
let's pretend these are reallychildren's stories.
I don't know that that happened.Part of me hopes that that
happened. But that they wereperceived in that way allowed
the stories to surviverelatively intact. Like, you
know, the I I can see this inmyself when I when I go to
revision a story, like, let'ssay there's an ending that
doesn't sit well with me, and Iwanna make it a little bit
(34:19):
different. It the the storyreally resists that.
There's, like, this thisfidelity that you have to have
to the story that seems to betrue more of these fairy tales
than it does of, say, a myth oranother type of old story. So,
yeah, I really feel that theyare alive. I know that that's
(34:39):
weird for a lot of people tounderstand. Not you, but Yeah. A
lot of people.
Wendy (34:44):
No. I I I yeah. I feel I'm a I feel like I'm always
giving that caveat too. I knowthis is weird, but hang in there
with me. Yeah.
But just consider. But yeah. Imean, just just think about how
(35:06):
that story has been such a apotent tool in human history
since we've had language. Right?That's how we've taught
important things
Danielle (35:19):
to
Wendy (35:19):
each other, how we've remembered our ancestral lines,
how we remember medicines, howwe remember dangers, and
Danielle (35:27):
Right.
Wendy (35:27):
Things to celebrate, things about the natural world.
Danielle (35:31):
Yeah. And that we dream like, that's what I come
down to when people discount thepower of story. I'm like, we
dream in stories. Like, everydream is a plot line. You know?
When when you're talking about adream to somebody and you're
like, so I'm walking down theroad. I mean, that's the
exposition. That's the once upona time, then you always get to a
crisis, which is the climax. Andthen you might not remember or
(35:55):
get the resolution or thelicense at the end, but
sometimes you do. And there'sthis whole narrative arc in a
dream that happens when we'resleeping.
So, you know, our brain istelling us stories.
Wendy (36:07):
So, yeah, what is your relationship with dreaming?
Danielle (36:11):
Oh, I'm a huge dream nerd. Yeah. Yes. Dreams are
probably, like, my primarynavigation system. And so Yeah.
If I'm in a place I call, like,a dream dry chapter of my life,
which I forget which of the thedream nerds that I follow. I
(36:32):
think doctor Steven doctorSteven Eisenstadt, I think, is
the one who said this where,like, if you if you are in a
dream dry period where you younormally remember your dreams,
but you aren't for severalmonths or whatever, that you're
just on the cusp of this great,like, personal initiation
because you don't reallyrecognize yourself in the dream.
(36:53):
So something that I believe thatisn't part of my my work but I
do believe this Eric Wargo isone of the dream nerds. He's not
witchy in any way. He's ascientist but he's his theory is
like we we our our brains arekind of pre metabolizing the
future through our dreams allthe time.
And so every dream in his theoryis prophetic, and you just have
(37:17):
to dig out the symbols.
Wendy (37:19):
And so This is a scientist guy saying this.
Danielle (37:21):
Yeah. Doctor Eric Wargo. Yeah. He studies the
brain. It would be more likeneurology than witchcraft.
But it is so cool. I mean, youwould love it because,
especially as a writer, hislatest book is all about artists
and writers and how we'reessentially, like, we are
predicting the future when wewrite. That that's it's coming
(37:42):
from our own future self. And soand so if in your dreams, you
are your future self. If yourfuture self is so weird because
you've become someone so new,you wouldn't recognize them.
And so you don't remember yourdreams because they're coming
from future you who's just sodifferent post initiation. We
(38:02):
don't know necessarily what'sgonna happen there to make you
that version of yourself. Butwhen you're in the dream dry
period that it might just be,you know, who you are in that
dream is kind of inconsistentwith who you believe yourself to
be with now when you're awake.
Wendy (38:18):
And so It's a readiness thing. You're not quite
Danielle (38:21):
Yeah. Right.
Wendy (38:22):
You're not
Danielle (38:22):
really gonna remember. Mhmm.
Wendy (38:23):
Or you're going through menopause.
Danielle (38:25):
Yes. That too. Yes. That too. I mean, talk about
becoming somebody totally new.
Oh, yeah.
Wendy (38:40):
Yeah. Or actually yeah. Like, maybe more more you.
Danielle (38:46):
True version. Yeah.
Wendy (38:48):
Yeah. A more you version of you.
Danielle (38:50):
That's Yeah.
Wendy (38:51):
That's what I'd like to think. I could be blowing smoke
up my own ass, but but I'd liketo think that.
Danielle (38:57):
Yeah. I hope so. I'm, like, in it. Are you? Oh.
I am in it. Yeah.
Wendy (39:07):
It'll get better.
Danielle (39:08):
Yes. Thank you.
Wendy (39:10):
It'll get better. Maybe your memory. I seem to have lost
mine. Anyway, so yes. So, yes,the power of story.
While you were talking aboutdreams Mhmm. Just now, I was
thinking about how how verydreamlike fairy tales are.
Danielle (39:33):
Right. Yeah.
Wendy (39:34):
I hadn't really thought of it until just now, unless you
already said it, and I it didn'treally click in my brain parts.
But
Danielle (39:42):
No. I don't think so. But I mean, it yeah. It's like,
what came first? Did you know,do we dream in this fairytale
way because of fairytales orwere fairytales somebody's
dream?
Yeah. Exactly. Or both. Or both.
Wendy (39:58):
Yeah. Yeah. No. I love that. Thing that makes a fairy
tale so different than, say, amurder mystery.
Like, if you're gonna readfiction, you read a fairy tale
versus a murder mystery as anadult, let's say
Danielle (40:15):
Yeah.
Wendy (40:16):
Is the symbolism. Right. If you think about it, right,
because a murder mystery, it'slike a a little slice of
everyday life. And some some badshit happens, and then a bunch
of police come, and then theytry to solve it, and then you're
fall whatever. I don't know.
Danielle (40:32):
But Right. I don't
Wendy (40:33):
know why I'm I'm like the the king of bad analogies, and
this is but but the power ofsymbolism. I mean, we're kind of
touching on this a little bitwhen you're talking about Carl
Jung and the archetypes. But doyou have any thoughts on just
how rich the symbolic world isand why there's so much magic in
(40:59):
that world?
Danielle (41:00):
Oh. I mean, the the thing that's coming up, my
initial response was no. I don'tbelieve you. I mean, I really I
I have believed since I wheredid I come up with this? I don't
know.
(41:21):
Maybe when I was getting intowhen I was getting into
witchcraft and, know, had hadmaybe a few spells that worked
and, you know, kind of wanted toknow why. And I think I've
always had a kind of healthyskepticism and I, one of my
favorite mantras is like,witches always want proof. Like,
(41:41):
you know, we want proof that themagic is real. We, you know, we
cast spells because the lastspell worked. So, you know, if
you get to a place where it'sboring and it's not working
anymore, then you would stopdoing it.
So I was I really love this bookcalled Where Science and Magic
Meet by doctor Serena RoneyDugle. I think it's pretty old
(42:03):
at this point. But, like, Iremember reading that, and and
she was very skeptical andscientific in trying to pick
pick out these different reasonswhy not just magic works, but
also, like, psychic activity andenergy healing and all of these
different kind of mysticalpractices that are ancient.
Sounds a
Wendy (42:21):
cool book. Yeah.
Danielle (42:22):
Yeah. It is. It's a very cool book. And I think in
that book, she talks about thisdance between the the implicate
realm and the explicate realmand, like, you know, that the
implicate realm is what'shidden. So ancestors, fairy, the
other world, even maybealternate timelines, like
(42:44):
anything that we would say ismaybe there and also bizarre and
less provable by science, thateverything originates there.
And then it gets made manifestin the explicate realm that we
can see. So thinking about thishidden original birth place for
(43:04):
everything as being like theseat of magic. And so, you know,
if we are talking collectiveunconscious and where these
different symbols might live, Iwould say it's there. And then
it gets made manifest in thisexplicate realm where, you know,
we try to make sense of ourlives and go to work and fall in
love and do all of those thingsthat we do.
Wendy (43:27):
Exactly. Yeah. No. I mean, you just that that's a
very shamanic description.
Danielle (43:31):
Yeah. It's
Wendy (43:33):
Of the unseen world because to me that is the world
of of information, and theinformation is perceived
symbolically.
Danielle (43:41):
Right.
Wendy (43:42):
And those symbols all have stories to tell.
Danielle (43:44):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy (43:47):
And so it's it's as if these fairy tale authors are
tapping into the unseen realmand pulling these stories out,
or maybe these stories arelanding in their psyche somehow
in a dream or or in some kind ofaltered state, perhaps?
Danielle (44:07):
Yeah. It's I always recommend to people that are
getting into storytelling, like,speak it out loud as much as you
can. Like, you know, writing isstill cool, and I get that.
Yeah. But when you tell thestory out loud, it's different
every time.
Like, every time, it's like atotally new, like, not just
(44:27):
encounter with the story, like,totally new, like, falling in
love with the story. Like, awhole relationship life cycle
goes on when you're telling thatstory even if you told you've
told it 10,000 times, and you dohave a sense that there the
other world is speaking throughyou. Like, not the whole time
because you're getting, youknow, like, did I forget to tell
(44:48):
that part? And, you know, you doall that.
Wendy (44:50):
Did I use the right tense?
Danielle (44:51):
Yeah. Exactly. But but you always have at least one and
usually more moments where youjust, like, feel yourself
speaking, and you're like, Idon't even know where this is
coming from. You'll say a wordyou never say, you'll start to
describe a character in a waythat you just had never thought
of before. So it's thatspontaneous telling of the story
(45:14):
I think that you know the otherworld's always there, I think,
and trying to come throughstory, even if you're writing
them down.
But when you're speaking outloud, you get that proof in the
moment that that is true. And Ithink you, we all need that as
storytellers, like, proof that,like, oh, this really isn't
coming just out of me. I am notthe source of this thing. I'm
(45:38):
the channel for this thing.
Wendy (45:39):
Wouldn't it be cool if we could just access that as adults
with ease. Yes. Because there'sso much wisdom there. Right? As
kids, we're open to it all thetime.
We live there.
Danielle (45:53):
Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting that you say that
because, like, you know, whenwe're kids, we have all well, we
encounter all the wounds aboutfear of being seen and, you
know, is the art worth anythingand all of that? Then that gets
amplified and repeatedthroughout adulthood. But
there's something about havingit witnessed that seems
(46:14):
important.
Having the story witnessed thatI think, like, you know, when
you're a child, you don't reallycare who's listening to you, but
then you have
Wendy (46:24):
that Exactly. Yeah.
Danielle (46:24):
Original wound of, like.
Wendy (46:26):
Criticism. Being too loud
Danielle (46:28):
or Yeah.
Wendy (46:29):
Exactly. And then that that just dampens the works.
Danielle (46:32):
Yeah. And then there's that fear of having it
witnessed, and the witnessing isthe thing that makes it come
alive, I think, because thestories want to move. They want
to travel, so they want to beheard
Wendy (46:43):
by Yeah. It's heartbreaking, isn't it? That we
do that to ourselves.
Danielle (46:48):
Yes.
Wendy (46:48):
That we do it to each other, I should say.
Danielle (46:50):
Yes. Yeah. It is. I know. So many so many people all
hear that I'm 45 and they'll beolder than me and saying, like,
oh, I could never be an artistor I'm not creative and, you
know, this painting is stupid.
And like, no.
Wendy (47:11):
Good. I'm glad you're saying that because that's
that's that's sad. And it's nottrue.
Danielle (47:17):
Sad. It's not true. I know. Sometimes it's beautiful,
you know, whatever it is they'reshowing. It's like, look at this
amazing thing that I created,and then they'll be like, but
it's worth absolutely nothing.
Wendy (47:31):
Oh, what does that even mean? Right?
Danielle (47:33):
Right. Right. I know.
Wendy (47:35):
So do you have an example of how a story in your book has
either helped you or someoneelse just to kinda give
listeners an idea of of how thiscan work? Like a simple example.
Danielle (47:51):
Example. Well so there's a there's the story that
I referenced before that I saidis one of the gnarlier ones
that's in the bone cellar. Ithink in the book, I call it the
mage's bird, but the originaltitle is Fitcher's bird. So it's
the German collected Germanversion of Bluebeard. And it's a
gnarly I mean, Bluebeard'sgnarly anyway.
(48:13):
This is, like, a really gnarlyversion of Bluebeard. And it's
one of the few stories that I Ihad a group of people come to my
land last summer, and we justswam in this story for, like,
five days, and we did all ofthese different rituals around
this story. But it is very ofthe warrior archetype. So
(48:36):
there's a lot of thinking aboutin your life what you seem to
have been preparing for. Sogiven all of the trainings that
you've taken and thecertificates that you collect
and all of those things that wedo, And not just that, but the
the books that you read, ifyou've been training or
preparing for something, giventhe patterns that are in those
things that you've done andstudied, what might that great
(48:59):
spiritual battle be?
Wendy (49:01):
Nice.
Danielle (49:02):
And so, you know, that's the warrior archetype,
but that that story of themage's bird, it's like that. You
know? Unlike the more commonversion of Bluebeard, the French
version that's more familiarwhere the youngest sister kind
of is very victim the wholetime. In this version, she's,
like, got the plan the entiretime, the youngest sister. She's
(49:23):
like, we're gonna take this guydown, and she disguises herself.
There's this ritual drama that'shoused inside of it. And then at
the end, she essentially, like,burns his house down with him in
it. And not only that, but allof the people that knew what he
was doing murdering these women,they get burned alive too. Damn.
(49:43):
Okay.
This really epic ending at theend. But the whole time, it's
like about the strategy. Solike, I know that that that
helped a lot of people feel asense of empowerment at a time
when the world story wasdefinitely in this place of
chaos and lack of clarity andwhere were we going. And, you
know, not that it's not stillthere. I was
Wendy (50:04):
gonna say was. Yeah.
Danielle (50:07):
But, you know, but if we think, like, back to to, you
know, 2024, the vibe was thisvery peculiar, like, you know,
we could go that way or we couldgo that way.
Wendy (50:17):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was the the before.
Danielle (50:20):
Yeah. It felt like a crossroads moment, and it felt
for a lot of people that werewith me anyway, like, defeating.
You know, that was sort of thewhat everybody was vocalizing
is, like, how do I plan for mylife when I don't have any idea
what the world's gonna look likein six months. So yeah. So
harnessing and then amplifyingthat warrior archetype through
(50:41):
that story was was healing eventhough it is a gnarly story, and
we weren't burning anybodyalive.
When we were here, there wasstill this sense of, like, what
if we have the plan? You know,what might the plan be? Yeah.
Wendy (50:57):
Yeah, that is what you just described is the power of
story.
Danielle (51:01):
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Archetypes are like these these
kind of energetic bubbles ofpower and meaning. So if you can
tap into certain archetypesthrough story, you can do it in
other ways too, but throughstories kind of the easiest way
because we're surrounded bystories all the time.
So the archetypes are alive inthe Netflix series that
(51:23):
everyone's watching or, youknow, doesn't have to be in a
mystical fairy tale. They'restill very much alive in the
modern stories. So you can tapinto that energy that you need
when you need it. And usuallythat's not a conscious decision.
It's like, you know, the Netflixseries that you're watching.
It's because you need a littlebit of that archetype in people.
(51:43):
Yes,
Wendy (51:46):
we do.
Danielle (51:51):
And so there's always, like since you brought up murder
mysteries, you know, there's alot of conversations around,
like, why women especially,like, love to watch the murder
mystery documentary.
Wendy (52:00):
True Crime. Yep.
Danielle (52:01):
True crime. And it's like, it's preparation. That's
part warrior bird woman fromthat story. It's it's it would
be weird if there were I feellike it's weird when men love
watching the true crimedocumentary. When women watch
it, it's because we want toknow.
Yeah.
Wendy (52:18):
We're strategizing. Exactly. Mostly about what not
to do. Yeah. Jesus.
So if someone would like tolearn more about you or your
work or hang out in the HagSchool, how would they go about
(52:40):
doing that?
Danielle (52:41):
Yeah. So, website, danielledolesky.com is, like, my
main website, and then thehagschool.com has its own
virtual spot to live, but all ofthe things are there, and I hope
they do.
Wendy (52:57):
I hope they do too. So this has been fun. Thanks so
much for coming on.
Danielle (53:03):
Yeah. Thanks so much for having me.
Wendy (53:07):
Alright. Are you ready to get your witch on? You can learn
more about Danielle and herofferings at danielledelsky.com
or join the Hag School atthehagschool.com. Thank you for
listening and for hanging inthere with me since 2018. I
wanna thank Stephanie andJohanna with every cell of my
(53:28):
body for their ongoing supportof the podcast.
Your support is so appreciated.Not only does it help alleviate
some of the costs of producingeach episode, which averages
about seven to eight hours each,and is the reason why I can only
put out an episode every threeor so weeks. But it also tells
(53:49):
me that you'd like me to keepgoing. So thank you. If you're
enjoying the podcast and you'dlike to help out by making a
donation of any amount, pleaselook for the support this
podcast link at the bottom ofthe show notes.
Getting additional support couldhelp make it possible to release
even more episodes morefrequently, which means I
(54:10):
wouldn't have to turn down somany potential amazing guests,
which are quite a few. I'll beback in a few weeks where we'll
be traveling into the liminalrealms of shamanism and lucid
dreaming with a lovely, highlyexperienced mother and daughter
team. Until next time.
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