Truth, AI, and the Wild: The World of Raven’s Daughter

In this very special episode of Lucid Cafe, I celebrate the long-awaited release of my new book, Raven’s Daughter: The Story Keeper. After years of dreaming, writing, and behind-the-scenes work, publication day is finally here.

Joining me is my brilliant and hilarious friend Claire Wheeler, who helps me unpack the story, themes, and inspiration behind the book. This is the first time I’m speaking about Raven’s Daughter out loud in any real depth, so it’s part book talk, part soul share — with a few meandering moments along the way.

We explore some of the book’s deeper currents, including our complicated relationship with deception, the influence of artificial intelligence, and our growing disconnection from the natural world. Though it’s a work of fiction, Raven’s Daughter offers an imaginative lens for reflecting on the challenges of our time.

In this conversation, Claire and Wendy discuss:

• The inspiration for Raven's Daughter
• Deception
• How do you know what's true?
• Terror management theory
• The three realities described in the book
• The story's shamanic influence

For more information about Raven's Daughter or to purchase a copy, visit Three Worlds Press

Listen to some absurd and unhelpful nonsense Inside the Box with Claire and Wendy podcast

BECOME YOUR OWN SHAMAN Introductory Online Course 

Visit Wendy’s website to learn more about the the Harmonic Egg®  

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Episode Transcript

Wendy (00:03):
This is Wendy Halley and you're listening to Lucid Cafe.

(00:31):
Alright. Here we go. Thanks forjoining me for another episode
of Lucid Cafe. Today's a dayI've been preparing for for
years.
So dramatic sounding, but it'strue. It's the official
publication date for my newbook, Raven's Daughter. All the

(00:52):
behind the scenes work is done.Now it's time to put it out
there and hope it finds readers.So in today's episode, my
brilliant and funny friend,Claire Wheeler, joins me to help
me talk about my book.
Please keep in mind that this isreally the first time I'm

(01:12):
talking about my book in detailout loud to another human being.
So you'll have to forgive me ifI meander a bit here and there,
especially since the themes ofthis book even though it's
fiction are broad reaching andtouch on current challenges
we're facing like deception andartificial intelligence. My goal

(01:35):
with Raven's Daughter was tocreate an imaginative and
engaging way to look at ourcollective and personal
relationships with deception andits devastating impact
particularly as it relates toour disconnection from the
natural world. Claire was theabsolute perfect person to have
this conversation with and I'mgrateful to her for joining me.

(01:57):
So please enjoy ourconversation.
Before we get going? You mean,like, to each other?

Claire (02:07):
Yeah. Like, I love you. And no matter what happens, I'm
gonna still love you.

Wendy (02:14):
No matter how this conversation goes...

Claire (02:16):
We're gonna be different after this. And I want you to
know that I'm okay with that.Okay. Is that helpful?

Wendy (02:24):
Yeah, it's really helpful. Yeah. Yeah. It's really
helpful. As always, I mean youalways say the things that make
me feel really good.
Yeah. Especially when I'mtalking about something like
Yeah. What we're about to talkabout. Good. Yeah.
So I feel completely at ease andcomfortable. Yeah. And Yeah.
This is actually gonna be agreat intro. Yeah.
Because I've been recordingall of this.

Claire (02:44):
You have not. Oh god. Oh god.

Wendy (02:49):
Perfect. Perfect. So my dear friend Claire

Claire (02:58):
Hi.

Wendy (02:58):
Is here with me to help me talk about my new book.

Claire (03:05):
Yes. I am.

Wendy (03:07):
Claire is the perfect choice to help me talk about
this book, and I'm hoping thatyou'll see that too in a little
bit here. But if you don't knowof Claire before today, you
should know about Claire.Because we we we happened to do

(03:29):
a podcast, the two of us Yeah.Back in twenty nineteen,
nineteen, I believe.

Claire (03:35):
The before times.

Wendy (03:36):
The before times,
yeah. But it was kind of likethe intro to the now times.

Claire (03:40):
That's right.

Wendy (03:41):
Like we got a little glimpse during that period.

Claire (03:43):
We did.
Of, yeah. When I think back onit, it was an exercise in
absurdity, and that is veryhelpful preparation for what
we're in now.

Wendy (03:56):
Yeah, exactly.

Claire (03:57):
How wise of us.

Wendy (03:58):
I know. We didn't even realize how wise we were.

Claire (04:01):
That's right. I think that's how wise people operate.

Wendy (04:05):
Right. Right. Exactly.

Claire (04:07):
You don't want to know how wise you are otherwise you
come off as a little arrogant.

Wendy (04:11):
Yeah, exactly.

Claire (04:12):
And unlikable. Which is definitely not us.

Wendy (04:13):
The question is are we faking what we're saying right
now to make it look as thoughwe're being intentionally humble
when we're really not?

Claire (04:22):
The other question is, is it possible for two Leos to
be humble?

Wendy (04:26):
That's a great fucking question.
So our the Claire and Wendypodcast is called Inside the Box
with Claire and Wendy and wegive really amazing advice. True
advice. It's a true advicepodcast and there are nine
exciting episodes that werecorded answering life's most

(04:48):
important questions. The taglineis: Because life isn't absurd
enough. So we answer thequestions for you to make your
life easier and talk aboutwisdom.

Claire (05:03):
Chock full.
Mhmm.

Wendy (05:05):
Yep. So just to give you an example some of the topics
that we cover. How not to die.Mhmm. How to win a fight.

Claire (05:14):
That's right.

Wendy (05:15):
How to not be an asshole. Right.

Claire (05:17):
Yep. How to be professional.

Wendy (05:19):
Yep. That's actually the most popular episode we have,
believe it or not. Yeah. How tobe a parent.

Claire (05:25):
That's right, how to parent a child, which neither of
us do. Exactly.

Wendy (05:30):
But we know how to do it really, really well. Absolutely.
Which is why you should listento it.

Claire (05:34):
Yeah,

Wendy (05:36):
so there's that. Yeah, give it a listen. Yeah, yeah.
Hopefully, you'll get a chargeout of it. But that's not the
reason why we're here, is it?

Claire (05:52):
I mean, we could just promote our other podcast on
this podcast for a while longer,but maybe we should.

Wendy (05:58):
We should just do other things. Moving on. Because am I
trying to avoid talking about mybook, maybe, a little?

Claire (06:04):
Well, in that case, let me take the reins. Wendy, I'm so
excited to talk to you aboutthis book that I'm holding in my
hands. She actually is.

Wendy (06:14):
It's a galley copy she's got.

Claire (06:16):
It's really, really beautiful to see. There's some
gorgeous cover art. There arepages with words on them.

Wendy (06:22):
Really? Yeah. I didn't mean for that to happen.

Claire (06:27):
And I had the privilege of reading an early version of
the book. And I have to admit,and this is vulnerable because I
really want people to thinkhighly of me, but I'm not a big
reader.

Wendy (06:43):
Oh, I thought you were gonna talk shit about my book.
No.

Claire (06:47):
I'm gonna talk shit about myself. I'm not a big
reader. She's not. I do enjoyreading when I read, but it's
not my go to. And I was thrilledwhen you asked me to read this
book.

Wendy (06:57):
You actually, because I know you're not a big fan of
reading. Yeah. You actuallyasked me if you could read it.

Claire (07:03):
That's right.

Wendy (07:04):
Which I was shocked by and I'm also thrilled.

Claire (07:07):
Yeah. Well, I like you a lot. I have been hearing about
this book it's been taking shapeand as you've been working on
it. It just talks on and on.Following and on.
Along with the plot and I justhave to say, as not a big
reader, this was very hard toput down. I was immediately
engaged with it and had a totalblast reading it. Not only is

(07:31):
it, in my opinion, incrediblyrelevant for the times that
we're in now, but also veryirreverent and funny. It's very
lighthearted in a way that Ineed and provides very helpful
guidance, I think, orinspiration for being a human in
2025. So thank you for the giftof writing this book.

Wendy (07:55):
Wow. Well, thank you for that feedback. Holy shit. Yeah.
Just for the record, I did notpay Claire to say any of that.
And I'm just as surprised as youare hearing it. I mean, said
sweet things about it before,but not in that way. So maybe
she was saving that for thisconversation, which she didn't

(08:15):
know we were gonna be havinguntil, like, a couple weeks ago
when I asked her if she'd bewilling to help me talk about
it. I'm so willing

Claire (08:22):
because I'm a big fan.

Wendy (08:23):
Yeah. I was thrilled that you enjoyed the story. I cast a
pretty wide beta reader netbecause the story is important
to me and I also wanted to makesure because it was a beast to
write. I wanted to make surethat people other than me would
understand what I was trying toconvey. So I had a I mean not

(08:44):
everybody was able to to getthrough it which I totally
understand.
That's why I cast a pretty widenet because it's a big ask to
ask somebody to read a book andgive feedback. But yeah, thank
you.

Claire (08:56):
You're welcome. All

Wendy (08:57):
right. So we should end right there.

Claire (08:59):
That's we're done. We did it. Just kidding. We are
just beginning. So yeah, let'sstart with a quick synopsis,
whatever you care to share aboutwhat this book is about.
Okay. Well, in a very briefnutshell, it is first of all,

Wendy (09:18):
I should say, the genre is considered speculative
fiction. And so it's acombination of fantasy and a bit
of near future sci fi. And so Iwanted to write this book in the
most mainstream form I couldthink of, and fiction seemed
like a really good way to go asopposed to non fiction which to

(09:40):
me can come across as preachy onoccasion. Non fiction is
typically directive in some wayand I just wanted it to be an
entertaining and engaging storythat hopefully is thought
provoking. Anyway, so it's abouta mind virus of deception.
And the protagonist, her name isCharlie, she is and she doesn't

(10:05):
know this, she's just living anunassuming life as a
receptionist and she startshaving these intense dreams and
eventually waking dreams thatpull her into this other reality
that I refer to as the dreamingrealm where she learns that

(10:26):
she's much more than justCharlie, that she's actually an
ancient member of the Ravenclan.And the book is called Raven's
Daughter, the Storykeeper. Andshe finds out that she is the
storykeeper and that she hasthis destiny that she is on

(10:46):
earth to fulfill. And so thestory is about her journey to
seeing if she can fulfill herdestiny because she also has
this really tragic past that shehas to heal because she she's
not ready for this reallyprecarious journey she has to
take until she heals that.Because she can't access this

(11:11):
ancient part of herself untilshe heals that part of herself
that's wounded.
And so at first we go throughher journey of healing herself
and then as that's happeningthese visions are deepening and
she's getting acquainted withthis ancient part of herself and
then some of the characters whoare in the dreaming realm. Yeah,
I mean she meets some reallycolorful at least I tried to

(11:33):
write them as colorfulcharacters in this book in the
dreaming realm and in thephysical realm. It's a not too
distant in our future timelineon earth.

Claire (11:45):
Yeah. Yeah. And I wanna focus on that at first because
our heroine's challenge here isworking with that mind virus of
deception. And to me, deceptionis such a specific human
experience. You know, it's sucha specific thing that we can do

(12:07):
to ourselves and do to others.
And I'm curious about why youchose that as the virus.

Wendy (12:13):
Deception itself?

Claire (12:14):
Mhmm.

Wendy (12:15):
You know, I was really debating as I was thinking about
having this conversation withyou and then any potential other
conversations I would have andhow I would talk to potential
readers about how much I shouldreveal about where the story
came from. Fair. Fair.

Claire (12:32):
Challenge by choice.

Wendy (12:34):
And so I kind of landed in the place of if someone asks
me, I will tell them where itcame from. And I can't answer
your question without tellingyou where it came from. So this
story has been in the works inmy psyche. It's been emerging
for probably since 02/2008 iswhen it started to emerge and it

(12:57):
has to do with my personalshamanic experiences over a vast
period of time and havingexperiences that seem completely
unrelated and then I wasn't ableto like I started writing the
story back in 2012 and I openedthe wellness center in 2014 but
2013 I started focusing on myenergy and trying to open the

(13:20):
wellness center and I had to putthe book down but I also didn't
have the full story yet. I onlyhad an idea.
I knew it was called Raven'sDaughter and I knew that the
protagonist was Charlie and thatI knew she had this tragic past.
But I didn't have anything in myhead yet about a mind virus. But
I had a curiosity where I justhad this thought one day. Is

(13:43):
there a mental realm? Becausethere's the dreaming realm and
there's the physical realm andthere's the energetic realm.
And then as part of theenergetic realm because our
thoughts have a frequency tothem. Wondered if there was a
place that our human minds livein a collective and I asked if

(14:05):
there is a place like this and Iwas shown this place but it was
really really hard to perceivebecause it's not
three-dimensional. It's at leastthe way the best way I could
describe it is like I had to beat a certain angle to perceive
it. Otherwise you would miss it.So the best way I can describe
it is it's more two dimensional.

(14:28):
Almost like

Claire (14:28):
a plane that you're looking at.

Wendy (14:29):
Exactly.

Claire (14:30):
Yeah. P L A n e.

Wendy (14:32):
It's yeah.

Claire (14:33):
That you could walk past and not notice, but if you catch
the catch it, you can see thatit's a whole it's a whole
reality.

Wendy (14:39):
And then slipping into that well, I actually once I got
the right angle from theexternal view of it I didn't
enter it. I just saw theexternal view and I saw that it
was corrupted. I saw that therewas all of this darkness in it.
It didn't look healthy and thenI asked to understand what that

(14:59):
was that I was seeing and I justhad the word deception in my
head. And I was like, Oh, oh,oh.
And so I didn't connect that tothe the story until later, like
years later.

Claire (15:17):
And tell us how deception kind of plays out in
the story. Know, give us someexamples maybe of what you mean
as the author as deception. Tome, it's, you think about the
nature of

Wendy (15:28):
a virus, right? Its whole goal is to stay alive and to do
that it needs a host to stayalive. And so when we deceive
ourselves, which like you weresaying before is a really common
thing, we all do it. And howthat translates when we talk to
others we deceive each other aswell but because of the nature

(15:51):
of our psyches is that we cantalk ourselves into or out of
anything so a deception canbecome a form of truth for us
even though it's you can tellyourself it's true even though
it's bullshit. So I thoughtabout how that would play out
and I was thinking about howsomeone will share something and

(16:13):
the shape shifting nature ofdeception is that it becomes
what the receiver wants it tobecome.
It's sort of like it needs tofind a home within that person's
psyche and so I wrote thedeception in the mental realm
and how it's perceived byCharlie as a protagonist is like
liquid mercury that's reflectiveand so she sees it in people's

(16:38):
eyes like a sheen of silver intheir eyes at a certain point
when she's open enough to beable to see it after she's done
enough healing where she canactually now see a bigger truth
and that you can see yourself insomeone else when they're
telling you a deception. And sothen you adopt the deception as

(17:00):
your own and that spreads thevirus. Does that make sense? Is
it like, is an example of thatmaybe like taking something
personally? Or just finding aconnection with a lie.
A lie. Yeah. It's confirmationbias or it's like, like you
already have the shape of thedeception. You just needed more

(17:21):
information to feed it to saylike, yeah, that's how it is.

Claire (17:24):
Mhmm.

Wendy (17:25):
And then it just takes on a life of its own. Right. And
then you share that with someoneelse and then it finds a home in
them.

Claire (17:34):
Yeah, so there's a way in which we're seeing this play
out on a national and globalscale in terms of Maybe a little
bit. Maybe just a tiny bit interms of the media we consume
and produce, right? Yeah. Thatperpetuates certain world views
that may or may not be 100%accurate.

Wendy (17:54):
Yeah, and that brings me to like when I was an
undergraduate back in the late80s and early nineties, I was
studying media arts as a thirdof my degree, which is basically
video and print journalism. Andthe journalism I studied is much
different than the journalism. Iwouldn't call it journalism now.

(18:14):
So it's like hard to know whatto believe Mhmm. Because it's
more like editorial now Mhmm.
Which is not journalism. Right.It's an opinion. Right. So that
has become the source ofinformation sharing is one
opinion.
And it's it's so fucking loaded.Yeah. Right? Yeah. How do you

(18:37):
untangle that?
And how do you

Claire (18:38):
know it's true? Right. Right. And this is yeah. This is
what this is what Charlie in thestory is up against.
You know, it becomes clearer toher, as you said, as she heals
that this is what so much of, somany people in the physical

(18:59):
realm are suffering from orstruggling with. But it's so a
part of the norm that we don'teven realize it. It's, you know
what I

Wendy (19:06):
mean? It's like, until you get outside of it, until
after that journey I had and sawlike, oh, we're corrupted. Our
minds are corrupted. This mentalrealm is corrupted with
deception. Now that I saw that,it was like I was seeing it
everywhere.

Claire (19:20):
Yeah, there's some commentary there on kind of the
whenever I get overwhelmed beinga human in the world, especially
around this type of conversationthat we're having, I try to
remember that we're really verybasic creatures. I just try to,
you know, just really try tohave a lot of compassion for how
much simpler we are than wethink we are. And there's a way

(19:42):
in which being deceived isalluring. It's exciting, right?
Like you're saying, we can getinto this habit of believing
what we wanna believe if thatbelief is more convenient, if
it's more comfortable, if itprojects a better image of
ourselves.
And I think the way that thatescalates in the story is

(20:05):
through, at first, what seems tobe, you know, artificial
intelligence, and then weactually get to work our way
into understanding andexperiencing through the book
augmented reality, virtualreality and augmented reality.
And I'm curious, obviously thatis also something that's very up

(20:26):
right now. Yeah, a little bit.AI and virtual reality and
augmented reality all play arole in this book, and it seems
to me that it's possibly acautionary tale. So, I'm just
kind of curious about, yeah, theconnection between deception and
artificial intelligence, and ifthere's anything you're wanting

(20:49):
readers to take away or toconsider through the book.
Those are

Wendy (20:57):
actually two big questions. So I'll start with my
interpretation of AI and therole it because AI plays a role
in the book in that itexponentially spreads the virus.
And so who or what creates AI?People. Right.

(21:17):
Ideas. And if they're corrupted,if they have a virus, what's
gonna happen to anything thatthey create? It's gonna get more
corrupted real fast. Yeah.Right.
And proliferate, set a Yeah,exactly. Like AI didn't create
itself. Right. Humans programmedit. Right.
So we program it in our image.Right. Because we want a smarter

(21:42):
version of ourselves. Somethingthat's gonna make our lives
easier which in some cases it'sdoing that and in other cases, I
mean that's what the bigcontroversy is, Right. With
artificial intelligence and theidea of artificial general
intelligence is that it's gonnastart acting independently of
us.
And then what does that mean? Soit's an interesting time in that

(22:06):
we don't know how it's gonnaplay out. And there's, I mean,
it's probably gonna be a mixtureof the whole spectrum of
outcomes.

Claire (22:14):
Right, and there's an acknowledgement there that
because artificial intelligenceis based on people and our
imperfect brains, it could begood and noble if we were purely
good and noble and, you know,had positive intent, but we're
not. We absolutely aren't.

Wendy (22:35):
Yeah, and as you're saying that, I'm thinking about,
well, where is artificialintelligence garnering its
information?

Claire (22:41):
People.

Wendy (22:44):
The internet, right?

Claire (22:45):
The internet,

Wendy (22:45):
That's where

Claire (22:46):
it's Right, a specific location where we all

Wendy (22:50):
It's like the warehouse of all of our opinions and the
books we've created throughouthistory, the entertainment we've
created. I mean, it's, you nameit. Everything that humans have
done is being kind of filteredinto this place we call the
internet and artificialintelligence is basically

(23:13):
intelligent based on thisfoundational information and so
it's it's gonna have the wholespectrum of everything.

Claire (23:25):
Mhmm.

Wendy (23:25):
Like our accomplishments, innovations, and our fucked
upness. And of course, the waywe see the world, how we make
sense of the world. Yeah. And soit really is a reflection of us.
Right.
Exponentially, though. Crazy, ifyou think about it.

Claire (23:44):
It really is. And it's also making me think about the
way that very importantinformation on federal websites
is being taken down at a rapidrate and how that alters the
machine. But does it actually goaway?

Wendy (23:57):
Right. Or is it kind of in some sort of, don't, yeah,
don't know how all that shitworks. I don't either. I've
heard that once you havesomething on the internet, it
actually never goes away, thatit can be accessed in some way.

Claire (24:10):
Yeah, some good stuff.

Wendy (24:11):
But I'm not smart enough to know how to do that. I don't
even know if I wanna be.

Claire (24:16):
So back to that kind of second question. So yeah, AI is
a cautionary tale, sort of howAI functions in the book.

Wendy (24:24):
And then The ultimate hope for my wish for readers to
take away.

Claire (24:30):
Exactly, yeah.

Wendy (24:31):
Really? I think my deepest hope is that people will
feel moved to look at theirrelationship with the truth and
what that means to them. I thinkit's such a vital question. What
is true? How do you know what'strue?
And how do you determine that? Imean there is physical reality

(24:53):
and there are certain truthsthat we all abide by or know
like about our experience ashuman beings on this planet in
this solar system in thisuniverse. And there are certain
rules that we know on thematerial level that exist that
are true. Right? Gravity, thesun is the center of our solar

(25:14):
system, although we didn'talways believe that.

Claire (25:16):
That's

Wendy (25:16):
right. And that we orbit the sun and all the planets in
our solar system orbit the sun,that we live and then we
physically die. And how you wantto interpret what happens before
and after that is up for debate.Life and death is part of
physical reality but then isthere something beyond that that

(25:38):
can't be answered from theperspective of physical or
materialist reality. Where was Igoing with all that?
So Investigating the truth.Investigating the truth. And
then there's your yoursubjective experience and what's
true for you about you. Like whoare you at any given moment?

(26:02):
What is your truth at any givenmoment?
It's not going to be the sametruth as someone else's truth. I
mean, there's always commonthreads. There's universal
things, but but I think it'sit's like, I smell patchouli. I
will cut a motherfucker. I willsome people

(26:23):
love that. People love that.

Claire (26:25):
Right. Shit. Can't even give them that.

Wendy (26:31):
But that's not, yeah, it's not true for everybody. So
that's like my personal truth.No patchouli. Right. Stay away.
That's the most ridiculousexample I can give. But it's
kind of like that is true forme. That is very true. Right. So
that's like an experientialtruth.
But then there's like the verypersonal truths, like what you

(26:51):
believe in, what you put stockin, what your morals are, your
values, that kind of thing. Andthat's not gonna be the same
truth for everybody. Right. AndI think that's such

Claire (27:02):
an interesting way to think about this because if the
goal is for all of us toinvestigate our truths, then
inevitably we have differenttruths that we're subscribing
to, different beliefs that weeach follow. And, you know, your
truth might differ from mine andtherefore, I might perceive you

(27:25):
to be deceptive. An asshole. Or,yeah, deceptive.

Wendy (27:29):
Or, asshole. Or, deceived.

Claire (27:31):
Yeah. Or deceived, right? And so, there's also, I
think, a message in here aroundkind of no truth surpassing
another truth, in a way, or howdo we coexist as human beings
with our differences rather thansort of

Wendy (27:49):
going to battle theologically or psychologically
with ideas that are differentfrom ours, right? Exactly. It
reminds me of a theory thatreally stayed with me that I
learned as an undergrad. I thinkit was an intro to sociology
course that I took and it wascalled the terror management
theory. Have you ever heard ofit?

(28:10):
No. Okay, it's a reallyinteresting theory where here's
my my best attempt at explainingit. It may not be completely
accurate, but the idea of it ishopefully a good recollection.
That the only thing we know thatis true is that we are all going
to die. But then each culturecomes up with an explanation for

(28:34):
what happens when you die.
And historically before culturesbumped into one another they
would be content with theirunderstanding of what happens
when but when people startedmigrating and bumping into each
other culture A would have oneexplanation for what happens

(28:55):
when you die and then culture Bwould have a completely
different or maybe similar, butsome different ways to explain
what happens after you die. Andit's like, who's who's right?
And so they would go to warbecause it would be very
threatening to hear an opposingtruth. Especially when it's
about the thing we're terrifiedof the most. Right.
And that also begs the questionof what is true about these more

(29:19):
kind of esoteric metaphysicalquestions. And we see that
happening in our culture withthese clashes of ideas and
there's the this is my truth andthen there's this group that
believes this other truth andit's not going well. Right.
Because it's threatening. Yeah.

(29:40):
And there's a degree ofcertainty about, well, my truth
is the truth. It's the actualtruth. Capital t truth. Right.

Claire (29:46):
And the very existence of your truth is threatening
enough to go to war, cause harm.And I think there's a way in
which we're seeing the currentwealth hoarding and power
hoarding happening, you know Ihadn't noticed. In our country
as almost a religious, you know,religious cult. Yeah, like

(30:09):
fervor. Fervor, right, that isultimately can be boiled down to
probably a fear and a resistanceto mortality, ultimately.
It's a really destructive one,but it's, at least we can
acknowledge or relate to it atvery basic level that those men

(30:29):
are having a hard time with thefact that they will die.

Wendy (30:34):
It could boil down to all that. You know, I was just
thinking too as we were talkingthat when I had that shamanic
experience, that visionaryexperience of the mental realm
and seeing it corrupted withdeception and how that how that
just stayed with me in such apronounced way and I think it
was intentional. Like I wassupposed to that was just part

(30:56):
of this big orchestrationtowards writing this book. Back
then I remember going to my itwas my final advanced training
in shamanism. And we're sittingin this group of, what is it,
like 35 people and reintroducingourselves to everybody, letting
everybody know where we're at atthat particular time.
And I think I said when it wasmy turn, yeah because I think

(31:18):
we're supposed to talk aboutwhat we had learned since our
last gathering or what we're upto and I said I've come to the
conclusion that we're all fullof shit. Yes. And it did not go

Claire (31:31):
over well.

Wendy (31:32):
No? No, the looks I got when I'm like, oh. Oh. Okay, I
guess. Wrong audience.
Yeah. But that was my takeawayfrom that visionary experience
like, oh, we're all full ofshit. Right. Like we're all of
us. All of us are full of shit.
We're telling ourselves storiesand then what is the truth?
Yeah. And that is such anintimate personal thing and

(31:52):
that's what really my ultimatehope for this book is is to
explore that for yourself. Yeah.What does that even mean?

Claire (31:59):
Yeah, and I think one way you encourage readers to
explore that is actually throughtraveling to these different
realms, and I wanna talk aboutthose realms for just a second.
You mentioned them already asthe physical realm. This is
where Charlie is a receptionist.She has a real dirtbag of a
fiance. She's trying to figureout her life, right?

(32:20):
And I love the description onthe back of the book, which is,
at the center of this crisis isCharlie Hanover, an ordinary
receptionist burdened by atragic past who longs to live a
safe, mundane life. I love thatidea of longing to live a safe,
mundane life, and of course,sometimes that's what we all
long for, but in a way, that'sCharlie's own deception, right,

Wendy (32:41):
that that's Exactly.

Claire (32:43):
But, as we were saying, there's the physical realm where
Charlie's life is playing outand where she wants to live that
safe, mundane life. But we alsohave the dreaming realm in this
book and the mental realm, asyou just described, the mental
realm is a place that youvisited in your own journey.

Wendy (32:59):
And it's the archive of human thought.

Claire (33:01):
Okay, yeah. So, yeah, tell us a little bit more about
these realms. I think a lot oflisteners know and you just
mentioned earlier that you'retrained as a shaman, so maybe a
little bit of shamanistic 101 onthe existence of multiple
realms, but I'm curious aboutyour choice to use realms in the

(33:21):
story and why it's importantthat multiple realms exist at
once. Why it's important that weare able to access different
realms in one existence.

Wendy (33:34):
Okay. Well, I will do my best to answer that huge
question. And I I don't eventhink I considered why I should.
I just did. Mhmm.
Yeah. Separate the realmsbecause it just it's like the
story played out that way

Claire (33:47):
Yeah.

Wendy (33:48):
In my mind. And I did not I just wanna say for the record,
I did not write this as ashamanic story. It is I wanted
it to be a mainstream story butit's very shamanic.

Claire (34:00):
Mhmm.

Wendy (34:01):
I used the word shamanism in there one time, I think, and
just as a quick referencebetween two characters. But the
dreaming realm, it that begs thequestion of what's real Mhmm.
And what's true. Right? And sofrom the indigenous perspective,
what I was taught and what myexperience has shown me is that

(34:22):
the dreaming realm is the realworld.
Okay. And that the physicalrealm is the dream.

Claire (34:28):
So let's, yeah, let's just say that again. Because
everybody's about to get theirsocks knocked off here.

Wendy (34:36):
You think so?

Claire (34:37):
I think so.

Wendy (34:38):
Well, I mean it's an ancient concept that's kind of
universal, and we've gottenreally far away from it in the
Western world. Not that I feellike we need to go back in time
and live like native people. Ithink we don't need to
romanticize the past, butthere's a lot of wisdom in how
people lived before Westernculture kind of took over. In

(35:02):
that Colonized everything. Yeah.
Yeah. Exactly. The idea was wasthat the dreaming realm, the
dream time, the spirit world,whatever you wanna call it, is
the real world, which is aninteresting thing. Like, that's
home, which means that there'san aspect of us that maybe is

(35:23):
living there. Mhmm.
Or it resides there. All thetime. Living through eternity.
Okay. And there's no time inthis place.

Claire (35:33):
Just to say too, the way that this plays out in the book
is that there's sort ofdifferent sets of characters in
each of the realms, all of whichwork together to tell the story
and are necessary in the arc ofthe story and the hero's journey
that Charlie goes on. In thedreaming realm, there are kind
of, you know, almost feels kindof like fantastical mythical

(35:55):
characters. I have to say, thedreaming realm is certainly the
most comfortable and the mostsoothing of all the realms. Is
it? Yeah.
I would say the mental realm,from a reader perspective, is
pretty Not,

Wendy (36:08):
yeah.

Claire (36:08):
And then the physical realm is just what we know to
be, our It's familiar. It'sfamiliar. There's good stuff,
there's bad stuff. Is it safe tosay that the truth in the terms
of this conversation we'rehaving about understanding truth
or seeking truth or getting toknow truth, is it safe to say
that truth lives in the dreamingrealm?

Wendy (36:29):
Well, I would invite people to try to figure that
out. Yeah. What does that meanfor you? Right? What really?
To me, that's a very intimatepersonal thing how we come to
that non physical truth. Mhmm.Like what is, are we more than
just our humanness? And thedreaming realm also I'm talking

(36:50):
about a a specific part of thethe dreaming realm in this book.
I don't go into it.
I don't make it completely fullyshamanic. I just I make it a
place. And there are sort ofarchetypal characters and it's
very it's like a fantastical,magical, natural world.

Claire (37:13):
It's lovely. It's beautiful. I mean, it's
described beautifully. I love,as I was saying when I was
setting up this question, I lovewhere we get to travel in this
book. I wanna talk about some ofthe other locations we get to go
to within the realms, but I lovebeing able to move in and out of
these realms and as the reader,the time you get to spend in the

(37:34):
dreaming realm is so soothing.
Oh, good, And so beautifulvisually, so colorful, so
comforting. Yeah. And so, youmentioned exploring this
question about whether or notwe're more than human, and so, I
would also say that the bookasks us to question whether
we're more than human, and thenalso, are we more than our
minds, right? Because more thanhuman, humans referring here to

(37:57):
the physical realm, right, wherepart of the story takes place,
and then more than our minds,because the story also takes
place in the mental realm, iswhere the virus lives. And the
dreaming realm, I think invitesus to consider what else is
there.
Where I think a lot of day today life for us as humans on
this planet is very physical andalso very mental.

Wendy (38:18):
Yeah, that's a great point. And yeah, and the
dreaming realm is the nonphysical realm. And as I wrote
it in the intro, put a little,there's a page that describes
the three realms and thedreaming realm is what dreams
the physical world intoexistence. Which is

Claire (38:34):
why it's the real world.

Wendy (38:35):
It's sort of where things originate. Which suggests what
about us? That we're dreamt intoYeah. What we're on this And so,
that means that is an ancientconcept that this is the dream,
that this physical reality isthe dream. And so I went with
that as a premise in this bookbecause I like that and it seems

(38:58):
to be in my direct experienceonce I've adopted that kind of
perspective to make sense ofthings, it seems to have a
degree of truth to it.
When I start interacting in thedreaming and changing things in
the dreaming, it transforms mein the physical. Right. Like
that's the cool thing about myshamanic practice is that having

(39:19):
those direct experiences lead todirect transformation. As
opposed to reading a self helpbook which has ideas, someone's
ideas about how to transformyourself. It's a little removed.
Whereas if you have a directexperience that invites you to
see yourself from this otherangle, you can't, as I've said

(39:44):
before in maybe other episodes,you can't have a conversation
with a tree and be the sameafter that. But then from our
Western viewpoint, that soundsbatshit. What do you mean have a
conversation with a tree? Treesare trees. But what if they have
their own intelligence, theirown kind of consciousness?

(40:06):
Animism. Right? And you can bein relationship with that. I
mean, yeah, it sounds batshit,but when you do it and then you
can't look at a treat the sameway after you've developed a
relationship with it. You justcan't.
So when you think about, I'mgonna cut this tree down. It's

(40:28):
like, oh, this tree is, whywould I need to think about
this.

Claire (40:36):
Right, right.

Wendy (40:38):
Well, that's a weird thing, but that's where my head
went.

Claire (40:40):
No, I think it's, I mean, yeah, no, I think you said
it beautifully, and it's thiswhole Cartesian model, like
science model of humans being atthe center of everything as
opposed to, and the mind and theheart being separate, all, you
know, all of these ways that,all these ideas that we've come
up with that separates us fromthe rest of the natural world.

Wendy (41:04):
I'm so glad you brought that up because that is a major
premise of this story Yeah. Thatyou're hitting on is there's a a
strong tie in with the mentalrealm as it gets more corrupted
and it starts expanding. Themental realm exists in between
the dreaming realm and thephysical realm. It's like in

(41:24):
between and it emerged whenhumans started having their
first thoughts. When they firststarted having cognition and
thoughts and beliefs it startedto grow in response to that and
so as it's growing and gettingmore and more corrupt it's
taking over the dreaming realmand this is a threat because if

(41:46):
the dreaming realm goes away sodoes the physical world because
that's what dreams the physicalworld into existence.
That's why this the pressure onCharlie is immense because if
she fails and this is her fifthattempt to try to do this
because 's so freaking hard toget into the mental realm and
deliver the remedy which she hasinside of her. She has to

(42:09):
deliver the remedy to this placeof entropy. It's complete chaos
in the mental realm and it'sriddled with deception. How is
she gonna do that? How is shegonna do that and not lose her
mind and not so anyway, there'sthat.
But if it goes away, theneverything goes away. And so
we're seeing this reflected inthe natural world in the

(42:31):
physical realm. And to me,that's like a really interesting
metaphor for our relationshipwith the natural world as well.
Human's relationship with thenatural world, which gets into
the bigger kind of culturalworldview that dominates most of
the planet right now which isand I've talked about this on

(42:53):
the podcast before, but colonialmind, this cultural worldview of
dominating our environment andchanging it and making it the
way we want it to be. It's justa worldview.

Claire (43:04):
Mhmm.

Wendy (43:05):
Is it the truth? No. Is this how it's supposed to be
that the American version ofcolonialism is particularly
special. Yeah, like every manfor himself, the American dream.
If you follow these rules,you'll have riches and success
and power, status.
All of that is emphasized but itleaves out so much stuff and

(43:30):
it's so individualistic.Humanity in and of itself is
very dependent. Humans are avery dependent creature. Meaning
we need each other. We needcommunity and that's the
opposite of what's reallyemphasized in our culture.
Not to mention throughouthistory, Western history,
contemporary history, theseconcepts that form our cultural

(43:55):
worldview. For example,materialism Mhmm. Which is very
like, I'm gonna use theenvironment for its resources to
better my life. Mhmm. Notthinking about the impact
because we don't have arelationship with the natural
world.
And if you don't have arelationship with the natural
world, then you can do whateverthe fuck you want to it. Mhmm.

(44:16):
Because it it doesn't matter. Ithas no value other than how it
can make my life better. Right.
Does that make sense? Yeah. Justthink about things that have
influenced the way we think nowin contemporary life. Like, I
think about the theory ofevolution. What's the phrase
that comes to your mind when youthink about Darwin?
Survival of the fittest. Right.That's that's how we live. Yep.

(44:40):
But then there's this reallycompelling alternative theory of
evolution that was proposed bythis guy Hamilton that focuses
on the role cooperation andaltruism plays in survival.

Claire (44:55):
Why didn't we go with that one?

Wendy (44:56):
Well, it it's both. Right?

Claire (44:58):
Yeah.

Wendy (44:58):
That that's a more honest look. It's like it's both
cooperation and Selfpreservation. Self preservation.
Yeah.

Claire (45:06):
Yeah.

Wendy (45:07):
It's not an easy planet to live on, but it's just so
interesting how we gravitatetowards what serves us based on
our values. Right. Well, it'sinteresting how a dominant
worldview becomes a dominantworldview, right, which of
course is based on who has powerand who is being oppressed. So

(45:27):
And it becomes the norm and it'salmost like a religion in and of
itself. And that's why I come tothe conclusion that we're all
full of shit.

Claire (45:37):
Back to that. Back to that. Yeah, look at

Wendy (45:40):
our It's buy this as kind of gospel. Yeah. That this is
how we have to live, but thereare other humans that lived in
this other way and now I havethese shamanic experiences and
I'm like, actually I get adifferent perspective, non
physical perspective that can'thelp but broaden your view of

(46:01):
what the nature of reality is.It's a lot more complicated at
least from my experience thanjust the materialist physical
realm.

Claire (46:10):
Yeah.

Wendy (46:10):
That's part of it but that's not all of it from what I
concluded. Yeah. And I tried tocapture that in the book.
Totally. Not in an intentionalway, but it just, I think it's
just part of my nature now, soit came out.
Can't help it.

Claire (46:26):
Yeah, and so clearly there are a lot of very deep and
big and interesting and superrelevant themes in this book
that have a lot to do with whatwe're experiencing as human
beings in our physical realmtoday, in 2025, in this day and
age. And this book is reallyfucking funny. Is it? Yeah. It's

(46:49):
very funny, and it's really,really fun, and there are so
many parts of this book that area real real pleasure.
I mean, there's a playlist thatgoes along with this book. Of
course, we have a really acouple of really fun romantic
plot lines. There is, as we havealluded to, a saving the world

(47:12):
level quest that we get to goon, and then a lot of really fun
and colorful locations that weget to travel to. Again, you
know, not only the three realms,then specific locations within
the realm. I have to say thatthe Eleventh Floor Clubhouse,
when you all get there, readers,was my favorite landscape to be
in.

(47:32):
Oh, for real? Yeah, you really,it just painted a very clear
picture of, the way that youdescribed the Eleventh Floor
Clubhouse was sort of visceralin my mind. I felt like I was
there and maybe because ititself was a virtual or
augmented reality location. Butno, you really bring in a lot of

(47:53):
humor, a lot of kind offlavorful descriptions, and a
lot of different places that weget to travel to to go along the
journey with Charlie in herultimate quest and I have kind
of another twofer for youbecause I guess asking one
question at a time is too simplefor That's

Wendy (48:11):
how you roll, yeah.

Claire (48:13):
I wanna know about your choice to use humor, which I'm
guessing partially for you wasjust impossible not to, knowing
who you are. But, tell me alittle bit about the kind of
strategic choice around humorand I'm also curious about which
parts you had the most fundepicting or describing in terms
of the sort of the physicallocations that you take us to.

Wendy (48:33):
Okay. Well, the humor part is, I think it's innate to
my irreverent side. I am such aclassic Gen Xer in that yeah
that kind of questioningauthority and breaking the
rules. So that's

Claire (48:53):
just

Wendy (48:53):
kind of kind of part of who I am. But I also because
it's such a heavy theme Mhmm.And I tend to write about heavy
themes, I think it's it'simportant to balance out the
heaviness with some absurdityand some irreverence. And it
just it's just kind of like alittle detour for a moment. It's

(49:15):
a relevant detour, but it's adifferent it's just a I don't
know.

Claire (49:19):
There's a character in the book named Todd who just
really provides, and it's justinterspersed every so often
exactly when you need it, thatlevel of absurdity. His
character is really fun and alsokind of helping to tell the
story of how the virus is taking

Wendy (49:37):
Yeah, there's two characters that are sort of
subsidiary character chaptersdedicated to showing how the
mind virus is playing out. Andso Todd is a vlogger and so
you're just getting like hisaudio.

Claire (49:52):
Bombastic, outrageous, really fun and

Wendy (49:56):
funny. A character.

Claire (49:58):
He lightens the load I think considerably.

Wendy (50:01):
And his chapters were the funnest ones to write.

Claire (50:04):
Okay. So that answers the question? Yeah.

Wendy (50:06):
They were they were the funnest ones to write. The
mental realm was the absolutemost challenging to write
because of the nature of it. Andit's so chaotic. It's so two
dimensional. Experientially,it's you imagine being in a
place with 8,000,000,000people's thoughts, just what

(50:28):
that would be like.
And then trying to maintain yourown, this is why I can't
meditate, Claire. Here it is.That's my excuse. It's the real
truth. Yeah.
I'm a shitty meditator.

Claire (50:41):
Right, because that's the challenge is navigating
everybody's thoughts while alsoholding onto your your own

Wendy (50:48):
Mhmm.

Claire (50:48):
Your own goal or your own truth or your own reality.

Wendy (50:51):
And then having to be like, Charlie has to be in
there. Not just her mind but herwhole essence has to be in there
in order to make this happen. Sohow do you not lose yourself not
just in the entropy of all ofthese humans thoughts and then
the echoes of of humans who areno longer there anymore, their
thoughts. Just all the thoughts.Yeah.

(51:14):
The catalog of human thoughts isall there. Just imagine what
that would be like. And then tonot lose herself in the midst of
all of that and then have herown thoughts that she's
wrestling with. And then there'sthe deception that she has to
kind of navigate through that'strying to distract her from her

(51:36):
goal. Right.
Because it doesn't wanna die.Yeah.

Claire (51:40):
Viruses don't like that very much. Mm-mm.

Wendy (51:43):
Yeah. They're very clever in that Did you

Claire (51:46):
have to do any kind of self care when you had to get
into the mental realm writing?

Wendy (51:51):
I think I remember clenching my jaw a lot when I
was like trying to

Claire (51:56):
That's not self care though. That's just coping.
That's just

Wendy (52:00):
what comes to mind, my recollection of it. But just
trying to find ways to describesuch a nonphysical place that's
just mental was really, reallychallenging. It was, yeah, it
was a really not an easy storyto write. There were sections
that were easier than others,but there was so much

(52:20):
information that I was trying totranslate about the story that I
was receiving as I was

Claire (52:29):
That was, yeah, that's maybe a good question to close
with. I was so curious aboutyour writing process. How, you
told us a little bit about howthe idea for the story initially
arrived. And then, how did itunfold from there?

Wendy (52:44):
Well, it came in pieces or chunks. I had like my bit.
Charlie's life, there's a lot ofWendy in Charlie's life. I'm not
exactly her, but there's like wehave the same exact taste in
music. Imagine that.

Claire (52:59):
We're like

Wendy (53:01):
adolescent boys when it comes to music.

Claire (53:05):
Oh I know, I've been in your car.

Wendy (53:08):
I've heard what's on. Yeah. And music plays a really
important role in the story. Sothat helped a lot. But that
didn't come into it until I juststarted writing and like Charlie
used music as a way to expressthe emotions that she was
repressing, which I don't thinkis an uncommon thing for any of

(53:28):
us to do.
But she does it in a verypronounced way. So the type of
music she's drawn to helps toexpress some really repressed
shit, which I can relate to.Because Charlie's story is
borrowed from aspects of my lifethat I've experienced myself or

(53:50):
have witnessed. As well as thepeople she encounters, the
people she's in relationshipswith. They're kind of like
amalgams of different people.
Like her asshole fiance is anamalgam of different
relationships I've had Mhmm. Inmy earlier days. I'm sorry.
Well, it's it's I mean, yeah. Iwould say that his name is Dan,

(54:15):
her fiance.
He's like an exaggeration Yeah.Of of these, but he's an amalgam
of all of these characters. Andthen the dreaming realm
storyline is one that I wastranslating as I was I was
getting information about like,I would ask the question, how

(54:36):
does this go? And then I wouldstart getting the information.
And then I would have totranslate it and then make it
work in the story.
Wow. So that was hard to And Iknow a lot of writers say that
they they feel like the wordsjust come to them. And that was
the case in in some instancesfor me, which I think is true.
Like, oh, all of a sudden thecharacter is doing this. Where

(54:58):
did that come from?
That's actually kinda cool. Ilike that the character's doing
this but I never would havethought of that. But this was it
felt like a traditional shamanicexperience for me where I was
getting like when I'm doinghealing work and I'm receiving
information and I have to find away to translate it for the
client in a way that makes senseto them but it's all symbolic or

(55:20):
it's it's like a package ofthoughts that I have to put into
into words that tell a story.

Claire (55:28):
So you would get it downloaded and then you'd have
to translate it into the storyitself.

Wendy (55:32):
Yeah, then make it work in the story. Specifically with
the dreaming realm. Really coolthings would happen as I was
writing it though. I'd get to apoint where I'm really stuck and
I'm like, oh I didn't even thinkof like how is this gonna work
out? How is this gonna

Claire (55:45):
oh shoot. Where are we gonna go? We're in a pickle for

Wendy (55:47):
Yeah exactly. What am I gonna do? There's a band that
I'm a fan of that's calledKilling Joke and my husband John
introduced me to Killing Joke along time ago when we first met
and I'm like yeah. It's likeangry, gritty, very political
commentary on the state of theworld like yeah. Like I was just

(56:10):
loving Killing Joke.
A little more than halfwaythrough writing the the
manuscript, the first version,my shitty first draft, I had
this impulse to look for someKilling Joke and I discovered a
record of theirs that I'd neverknown about that came out in
02/2003. And I saw this songcalled the death and
resurrection show. As soon as Iheard it, I was like, fuck yeah.

(56:34):
Yeah. This song this song It wasa very I'm a lyric girl.
I don't usually pay attention tolyrics. I just pay attention to
how the music makes me feel. Butthere's something about Killing
Jokes lyrics that are always sopoignant. And then I looked at
what the lyrics were and I'mlike, shit. This is Charlie's
journey.

Claire (56:50):
Yeah.

Wendy (56:50):
This is her song. And so that became like once that was
in place, once I kind ofstumbled upon that, then it was

Claire (56:58):
like, oh. This is how it's gonna go.

Wendy (57:00):
This is how it's gonna go.

Claire (57:02):
Yeah. Oh, I love that. I love knowing that having read
the book and the song playsMhmm. An important role in a
certain scene. That's a reallypoignant scene.
I love knowing that the songcame first for you. Well, it
came in the middle. Well, yeah.

Wendy (57:17):
Then Yeah. Like, that's I didn't plan it.

Claire (57:19):
It

Wendy (57:19):
just sort of fell into place at the perfect time. And
then I knew, oh, that's whereI'm headed Yeah. To that song.

Claire (57:25):
Yeah.

Wendy (57:26):
It not only explains what she's going through. She's going
through death and resurrectionMhmm. In her personal life.
That's the healing journey she'sbeen on, which is very shamanic.
But it also really kind ofbeautifully tells about her
quest Because music plays suchan important role, what I did
with this book, which I think ison the unique side, is that I

(57:49):
actually created a playlist onYouTube through the publisher,
which is three worlds presswhich is my press and three
worlds media is the YouTubechannel and that you can see
Charlie's playlist on there soif you want to check out the
actual music because I I don'thave the rights I can only
mention the titles and theartists But they're all

(58:11):
referenced in the book.
So if you wanna kinda take thejourney with her musically, you
can go on YouTube and listen tothe music and get a taste for my
taste in music. For good or forbad.

Claire (58:23):
And get a real, you know, get to experience the
book, I think, in a differentway. That said, thank you for
telling us about the press. Whatcan we tell listeners about for
the timeline, where to look outfor the book, how to get a copy?

Wendy (58:38):
Well, by the time this will be published, this episode
will be out there. The book willbe out. Awesome. Or just being
released. So that's May twentyseventh of twenty twenty five.
And it will be availablewherever you want to buy books.
At independent bookstores you'dhave to probably ask for it to

(59:00):
be ordered because I'm not afancy author so you would have
to they're not gonna just carryit on the shelves because Wendy
Halle wrote a book. If I had abookstore,

Claire (59:11):
we would carry it on the shelves. Yeah, it

Wendy (59:12):
would be the only book, right?

Claire (59:13):
That's right, I would have a book.

Wendy (59:15):
Just this book.

Claire (59:16):
It would be called Raven's Daughter Bookstore.
Yeah, thank you.

Wendy (59:19):
Thank you, yeah. So, yeah, it'll be available in all
the places and eventually, Iwill so it'll be available
hardback, paperback, ebook, andthen I'm working on the
audiobook too, I don't knowwhere I'll be with that. That's
a bigger that's a bigger thing.

Claire (59:34):
Undertaking.

Wendy (59:35):
Yeah. Yeah. I hope people will be drawn to the idea and
wanna read it. And it's notapocalyptic. I mean, it hints.
It's not like a there's hope inthis story. Absolutely. Yeah, I
totally agree. It's aninvitation. It's an invitation,

Claire (59:56):
and it's, yeah, for reflection, for understanding
the times we're in now, and forgiving us ways out and beyond
the situations we find ourselvesin today. And it's a whole lot
of fun. I just want to emphasizethat again. It deals with these
realities in very thoughtful,creative ways and it also is

(01:00:18):
super entertaining and a funride. Oh, cool, thanks for

Wendy (01:00:21):
saying I'm glad you feel that way. Yeah. I hope other
people do too. I do That wouldbe my dream come true.

Claire (01:00:27):
Yeah. Thank you so much, Wendy, for inviting me to talk
to you about this.

Wendy (01:00:30):
I'm again that you came on and talked to me about this
precious book. This book that Iwrote.

Claire (01:00:39):
You wrote a book. From That I'm holding in my hands.

Wendy (01:00:42):
Right now. Came from my

Claire (01:00:44):
my loins. And just really quickly, the cover art,
which is gorgeous. Also, workwork of yours. Is that right?
Yeah.
Yeah. No big deal. Yeah.

Wendy (01:00:54):
I used some watercolor pens to create the art on there.
And

Claire (01:01:00):
you gotta see it to believe it. Yeah. Get your copy
today. Thank you. Thanks, Wendy.

Wendy (01:01:07):
Alright. So there you have it. If you're intrigued,
Raven's Daughter is pretty muchavailable anywhere in the world
through the usual onlineretailers, or you can order a
copy through your localbookstore. You can find links in
the show notes. The audiobook isnot finished yet, but will

(01:01:27):
hopefully be available earlysummer.
I'll let you know. Thank you somuch for listening to this
special episode of Lucid Cafe.And if you do read my book and
end up liking it, I'd be deeplygrateful if you could help me
spread the word. Let yourfriends know, your book club,
your UPS driver, yourhairstylist, write a review.

(01:01:51):
Unless you're Stephen King,getting the word out about a
book in a world flooded with somany books can be mighty
challenging.
So any help is deeplyappreciated. Thank you. Thank
you. I'll be back in a few weekswith another inspiring episode
introducing ways you can changeyour relationship with money.

(01:02:14):
Until next time.