April 17, 2025 • 47 mins
In this episode we explore the magic of writing and the power of telling your story. My guest Nancy Slonim Aronie wants you to know that writing is not an exclusive club, that everyone has a really good story to tell. And usually not just one. In her new book Seven Secrets to the Perfect Personal Essay she writes “Essay writing is personal. Sharing what you think about a certain topic is risky. Especially if what you think is not what everyone else thinks.”
Nancy Slonim Aronie is the founder of the Chilmark Writing Workshop on Martha’s Vineyard and the author of Memoir as Medicine and Writing from the Heart. A regular commentator for NPR’s All Things Considered, Aronie has taught at Harvard University and conducted writing workshops and lectures at Kripalu, Omega, Esalen, Rowe Conference Center, Wainwright House, and the Open Center in New York City.
In this episode, Nancy discusses:
- Creativity is its many forms
- The healing power of the personal essay
- The mystery and magic of writing
- How everyone is a writer
- Being vulnerable
- The importance of feeling safe when writing and sharing your writing
- Writing workshops
To learn more about Nancy and her workshops, please visit https://chilmarkwritingworkshop.com/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Wendy (00:03):
You're listening to Lucid Cafe. I'm your host, Wendy
Halley. Hello, and welcome toanother episode of Lucid Cafe.
(00:35):
In today's episode, we explorethe magic of writing and the
power of telling your story.Well, we're on the subject of
writing, it seems fitting to letyou know that I've got a new
book coming out on May 27 thatI'm nervous excited about.
(00:57):
Nervous because I have no ideaif people will enjoy it and
excited because man, I put a lotinto this book more than any
book I've ever written before.And to see it in its final
version, I got to admit it'skind of rewarding. It's called
(01:20):
Raven's Daughter. The story isshamanic flavored fantasy with a
side of near future sci fi. Mydear friend and partner in
absurdity, Claire Wheeler, didme a kindness and recorded an
episode with me to help me talkabout my new book.
That episode will be coming outin May. Alright. Enough about my
(01:45):
book. Let's get back to today'sepisode, which is an invitation
to the writer in you whetherthat part of you is asleep,
curious but reluctant, afraid,or a regular part of your life.
My guest Nancy Slonim Aronie,who by the way is one of my new
favorite humans, wants you toknow that writing is not an
(02:09):
exclusive club because everyonehas a really good story to tell
and usually not just one.
This conversation is very much aconversation, one that I enjoyed
very much. I'm hoping that youdo too. Nancy is the founder of
the Chillmark Writing Workshopon Martha's Vineyard and the
(02:32):
author of Memoir as Medicine andWriting from the Heart. She's a
regular commentator for NPR'sAll Things Considered. Nancy has
taught at Harvard University andconducted writing workshops and
lectures at Kripalu, Omega,Esalen, the Rowe Conference
Center, the Wainwright House,and the Open Center in New York
(02:54):
City.
So please enjoy my livelyconversation with Nancy Slonim
Aronie. Nancy, thank you so muchfor joining me.
Nancy (03:08):
Honored.
Wendy (03:09):
Okay, so do you consider yourself a writer by trade or do
you do other things?
Nancy (03:19):
Yes, I think I can consider myself a writer and a
sort of a midwife for otherpeople's writing. At least
that's what I've been called andI love it. But I've always done
these little art things and justlittle tiny little people and
wires and beads. And about eightmonths ago, a good friend of
(03:42):
mine, beautiful artist who's inthe best gallery on the island
came over and said, you youshould be in Greenery Gallery.
And I went, Yeah, right.
And she said, No, Nick, you'reserious. So she brought my she
took pictures and she brought itto the to this guy that, you
know, owns this really, reallyfine gallery. And he told her to
(04:03):
tell me to call him, and I did.And he said, brings this stuff
over. So my husband vacuumed thewhole back of the Volvo, the
ruggy part, you know, black.
And I put 15 of my pieces backthere and we drove over
carefully and opened the trunkand he looked in and he went,
Brilliant. I love this. Oh, Iwant that. I want that. How much
(04:30):
is this, by the way?
And I went, I don't know. Hesaid, How much? And I said, I
don't care.
Wendy (04:37):
What did he say?
Nancy (04:38):
You have to care. It was such a revelation that he was
making me respect these things.And I'm in that gallery.
Wendy (04:48):
So that's incredible.
Nancy (04:49):
It's so exciting because when I was young, really little
kid, I was eight, my sister was12 and I said, I'm going to be
an artist. And she said, no, I'mgoing to be an artist. You have
to be a writer. And I became awriter and she became an artist
and she died.
Wendy (05:06):
Oh my.
Nancy (05:08):
Years ago. And I swear she said, okay, your turn.
Wendy (05:12):
It's now your turn. Okay. And how obedient you were.
Nancy (05:15):
Yeah. Like, why didn't I say fuck you? It has come into
my lifetime yet.
Wendy (05:23):
And how fortunate that that gallery owner said that to
you?
Nancy (05:27):
Mean It's just been it's such a thrill because it
validated everything that firstof all, what I tell people all
the time is it doesn't matterwhat the art form is. Once you
open the vein, it just let ittake you where it's going to
take you. When you can't write,people talk about writer's
block. I don't really think ofit as writer's block. I just
(05:48):
think, okay, switch art.
Go get those little crepas andget some bumpy watercolor paper
and put a swath of aquamarine onthere and then smudge it with
your hand and go, Oh, I'mbrilliant.
Wendy (06:01):
Yes.
Nancy (06:01):
And then you'll get back to writing as soon as there's
something to write about. But inthe meantime, don't stop if
there's just another form foryou. So I got another form.
Wendy (06:12):
Yeah, I think that's brilliant. And I think it's a
great suggestion for any of us,right? Interestingly, I mean,
this is a little sidebar. Iinterviewed a woman recently who
did research on social media,influencer culture, and reality
TV on the developing brain.
Nancy (06:33):
Wow.
Wendy (06:34):
Yeah. It's fascinating. And she was talking about how
our minds, our brains arechanging in response to our
exposure to social media, likehow it's physiologically
changing. And that our brain ismore focused on the limbic
system or the the more primalparts of our brain that are more
(06:55):
emotional and reactive.
Nancy (06:56):
Oh, that's good. That's good. I thought you were going
to say it was more focused onproduct and selling and
marketing and not creativity.
Wendy (07:05):
Well, that's where I was going. She said the thing that's
getting lost is not developing,especially in in younger people,
is critical thinking. And therelationship between creativity
and critical thinking and theability to just tap into that,
if you're in that survivalemotive mode all the time, it's
(07:25):
hard to access your creativity.
Nancy (07:28):
Mhmm. And the imagination is gone, and you're being told
what to do by impugitives.
Wendy (07:35):
Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's why I think it's an extra
great message that you justshared because it's vital. I
mean, because we were sonaturally creative when we were
children. I mean, that's justhow we operated. The world was
filled with possibilities andmagic and then we'd get away
from that.
Nancy (07:52):
It wasn't just influencer stuff, was the third grade
teacher who said you can't writethat or draw that or trees have
to be green or aunt Sadie, youknow, or somebody that took away
your freedom.
Wendy (08:03):
Exactly, right.
Nancy (08:05):
How trees have to be green. Okay, I get it. Thank
you. I'll get an A now.
Wendy (08:09):
So maybe the title of this episode should be Fuck
That. So back to your book.Well, we didn't even start
talking about your book yet. Letme share what the title of it
is. It's Seven Secrets to thePerfect Crafting the Story Only
(08:31):
You Can Write.
So why do you think it'simportant for people to explore
essay writing?
Nancy (08:40):
Well, I think it's the most personal, the most personal
way of healing when it comes towriting. Because number one, you
find out what stuck. You findout what you're repeating over
and over and over again that youwant to maybe start to
transform. A lot of people say,Oh my God, I never remembered
that. I can't believe I justwrote that.
(09:02):
And it's the most you of you.It's when you have your opinions
validated on the page. It's nota treatise and it's not a
journalistic piece. It's yourgut, it's your heart, it's your
soul writing. So it's the truthof you.
And you can exaggerate, but it'syour story. It's this is who I
am. This is what happened to me.This is what I did with what
(09:23):
happened to me. So that personalway of being able to get that
stuff out on the page, I'm a bigbeliever.
And now it's been validated outin the medical world and your
stories are marinating. Yoursorrow is in your pancreas. It's
in your liver. It's in yourheart. And getting it out on the
page is just a phenomenal way ofletting stuff go.
(09:47):
And yeah, you might have towrite it. I've written one
particular story probably 35, 40five times. It's still not
healed, But every time I think Ilighten the load. And that's one
of the things, you know, gettingthat personal essay, getting
that story, getting an insight,a new way of looking at it,
like, Oh my God, I never saw itthat way. So that's, you know,
(10:09):
it's healing.
Wendy (10:11):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so, how would you, I know
you've probably answered thisquestion a million times, but
how would you discern thedifference between a general
essay and a personal essay?
Nancy (10:23):
A general essay probably is quoting other experts, it's
informational, and then personalis completely your own story.
And you can sneak your own storyinto a general essay and you can
do the opposite as well. You canput facts in a personal one, but
a personal essay really is yourstory. Nobody can deny it.
(10:47):
Nobody can say, fact check it.
Nobody can say this isn'taccurate. It's like, I'm cold.
Well, how can you say you'recold? Because I know I'm cold.
It's my story.
Wendy (10:58):
So then what do you let me figure out how to word this
question. That's another reasonwhy I edit.
Nancy (11:03):
Yeah, but that's great. I think that's that kind of
conversational tone is whatwould make me listen to this.
Wendy (11:10):
Yeah.
Nancy (11:11):
Yeah, let me think of how to phrase this question, yeah,
because you're being real. We'reso starved for real.
Wendy (11:20):
Well then I'm not gonna edit this part out because I
normally would.
Nancy (11:25):
Good. No edit. Do not edit it.
Wendy (11:29):
Alright. So note to self, leave it in. I guess the the
direction my brain was going inis there's a certain thing that
happens when you sit down towrite, and you kind of alluded
to this a little bit ago.There's, like, a surprising
(11:49):
nature to it. It's like you canreread something that you wrote
and be like, holy shit.
Did I write that?
Nancy (11:56):
Yes. That's exactly right. How do you explain that?
I I think, Lauren, this is gonnasound woo woo, but I really
don't think you're alone whenyou're writing. I think once you
make the the commitment to sitdown, I think you are now
opening yourself up to whoeverwants to come in and help you.
You know, I used to call thereference desk at the library
(12:17):
when I lived in Connecticut,when I needed the name of a
river and I wanted it to beginwith an L and I wanted it to be
three syllables. And I wouldcall and you would literally
call me back three days laterand now you can just Google, but
I think, or someone would callme on the phone and go, we were
just in Laos and we went to theLa La La La River. And I would
(12:40):
go, oh my God, how does thathappen? I think partially being
willing to put your butt on thechair, you're already halfway
there and you will get adelivery system. And you're also
channeling.
You're just opening yourself up.You're a conduit now and you're
clear. You're a flute. Andyou've just said, come on in. So
(13:00):
I don't know how it works, but Ido know it works.
Wendy (13:02):
It is a mystery, isn't it? I mean, when I look back in
some of my pieces that I'vewritten in the past, I'm like, I
don't remember writing that.It's the weirdest thing.
Nancy (13:12):
You know, before we got on the Zoom call, I said, Oh,
she's going to ask me questionsabout the book. I'd better read
some of it. And I startedreading and it's really, some of
it, what I read was really good.And I don't know where that came
from. I don't know who's writingit.
(13:33):
So it's exactly what you'resaying.
Wendy (13:34):
Exactly. Yeah. It's kind of like, well,
Nancy (13:37):
check me out. I'm better than I thought. And then her
mom's going, oh my god, I letthat go?
Wendy (13:42):
And and then that speaks to how painful we can make the
process for ourselves. It,thinking that we have to get it
right or have to get it perfect.
Nancy (13:51):
There has to be a trust. I happen to be very easy on
myself. And I'm in a writinggroup, which is great. Because
they, they will not always say,Oh my God, that was fabulous.
They'll say, You know, I thinkyou have two pieces in here.
In fact, I have a funny story.When I first got married, I
called my husband at work and hewas an engineer at Pratt and
(14:12):
Whitney, a big, huge firmcompany. And I said, can I read
you something? And he was like,okay. Because he was busy and he
wasn't a boss.
And I would read him the piece.I read, I remember this one
time, I read him the piece andhe goes, I think you have two
pieces in there. And I said,Fuck you, you don't know
anything about writing. And Ihung up and I had pieces in
(14:33):
there. So, I'm pretty easy onmyself.
I love, I love just pouring itout and I have learned how to be
a little tougher and work alittle harder. But in the old
days, I would just writesomething and say that's it.
Wendy (14:46):
Wow, thought I was the only one who did that. I'm
serious. Yeah, yeah. It's wildbecause I'm usually like, all
right, I think I'm good here.There's something about just the
process of getting it out.
Nancy (15:00):
And also, I mean, maybe we do have a gift of that first
time with just a couple ofchanges, you know? I don't, I
don't have to anguish over thisstuff. There are people that do
and that, and that's anotherstyle. It's not wrong to work.
But what I say to the peoplethat take the workshop is don't
squeeze the joy out of it.
(15:21):
You know, you're working so hardthat you've just squeezed the
life out of it. Just let it be.Read it. Read out loud. Read
your stuff out loud.
That's the biggest, probably thebiggest clue I can give anybody
in the writing game is to readyourself out loud because you'll
hear what's wrong. You'll hearwhat's perfect. You'll hear what
needs another LY or another
Wendy (15:44):
Yeah, there's a cadence, a rhythm that I'm looking for
when I'm writing and then alsoreading what I wrote. And if
it's not there, then I have togo back
Nancy (15:53):
and We have the same style.
Wendy (15:55):
That's weird, I thought, again, we were talking about our
ADHD brains before we startedrecording.
Nancy (16:02):
Yeah.
Wendy (16:02):
And I thought that I was just anomalous in that way, but
apparently not.
Nancy (16:07):
Probably, but that's if we have, instead of, being the
opposite.
Wendy (16:12):
I imagine then that means that there are other people,
possibly someone who might belistening right now, who's like,
oh, me too, that's great.
Nancy (16:20):
Good. Take away that guilt. Enjoy yourself when
you're writing.
Wendy (16:24):
Yeah. It should be enjoyable. And you've written a
really inviting book for peoplewho wanna explore. Well, I guess
explore themselves, really.
Nancy (16:34):
Yep.
Wendy (16:34):
Which is getting back to what you were saying before. The
whole point of writing apersonal essay is is to get to
know yourself better and toheal, especially things that are
sort of brewing inside of youthat you may not be completely
in touch Yes,
Nancy (16:48):
exactly. You know, I sometimes say at the end of the
workshop, I could call thisworkshop Writing to Heal, but
nobody would come. But that'swhat happened. They wouldn't, I
mean it's like two, a lot of,certainly guys wouldn't come.
Wendy (17:06):
Yeah, unfortunately that's true, probably. Yeah. Not
to use stereotypes, but there'sa reason why stereotypes are
stereotypes, right?
Nancy (17:14):
Yeah. Right. Anyway, you were you were heading to a
question, and I I
Wendy (17:19):
Well, it was it it's more around it was the observation of
how inviting your book is, and Ihighly encourage people to pick
up a copy of your book becauseof how vital it is to have have
a relationship with yourself inthis way, and writing is a great
tool to be able to do that. AndI'm guessing you would suggest
(17:41):
that everyone is a writer,whether they want to be a writer
or not, but everyone can do it.
Nancy (17:46):
Definitely, definitely. I mean, people got screwed in
school and in their nuclearfamily. Somebody told them,
you're dangling participles. Youdidn't use subjunctive, whatever
it is. You can't write.
And it ruined a lot of people.And a lot of people say, I can't
write. But yeah, I mean, you cantalk, you can write. And, you
(18:06):
know, I'm sorry that thathappened to so many people, but
when people come to theworkshop, they say, you know,
I'll say, you're reclaiming yourvoice that got taken away
somewhere down the line. So it'sreally about voice and being
able to say, I'm not worriedabout what you're going to think
about me.
Wendy (18:23):
Which is a superpower, right, to be able to get to that
point. It is very hard.
Nancy (18:27):
You have to say every single day what other people
think of me is none of mybusiness. That's one of my
favorite things.
Wendy (18:34):
I love that. That's great. It should be a bumper
sticker or a t shirt
Nancy (18:38):
or something. Probably is somewhere.
Wendy (18:42):
And I'm thinking that that could actually be a really
good prompt for a personal essayis something along the lines of
when I was told I I was notwriting Yeah.
Nancy (18:53):
That that
Wendy (18:53):
Or when I was criticized or something like that in
general.
Nancy (18:57):
The prompts, it's really good to have it so narrowed down
that they can't that it's not sohuge. Like when mister Stefanian
said, keep your day job, andeverybody laughed in class, da
da da da da you know, whatever.The more specific the prompt can
be, the easier it is because Iwatch and as soon as I give the
(19:18):
prompt, people go right intowriting it. You don't ever see
someone sitting there trying tothink. And I think school, when
they had us write, they werejust so open.
You know, my summer vacation.
Wendy (19:31):
I mean, that's another secret. Maybe that secret 7A is
a very specific prompt to help.Because now that I'm thinking
about all the prompts you havein your book, they are very
specific, and there's not a lotof room to get caught in. How
should I answer I
Nancy (19:47):
mean, think the book, the reason I'm getting really good
feedback on the book and thereason I'm thrilled with it is
because, you know, I put otherpeople's, mostly other people's
essays in there and they'redifferent and the voices are
different. And I think that'sthe invitation for the reader to
say, Oh. I mean, that's whatHolden Caulfield did for me. You
(20:10):
know, when I heard him, when Iwas, I don't know how old I was
when I read it, but it was, Oh,you can sound like that? You
don't have to be prithy wise topale fun lover.
Prithy wise to don't have to beShakespeare. You can write as a
person. So that's one of thethings. It's a permission to
sound like you, to have yourlanguage, your rhythms, your
(20:32):
story, and not think you have tobe smart or sound a certain way.
It's your voice, and that'sgold, you know.
Wendy (20:40):
I love that. So, do you encourage people to publish or
do you just encourage people towrite for the sake of writing?
Nancy (20:48):
I often, you know, I start out by saying this is not
about publishing, this is aboutprocess. But sometimes someone
will read something and I'll go,I know this is against my rules,
but you have to send that. Youhave to send that for Father's
Day. You have to get that intoyour local paper. Please send it
immediately.
And I shouldn't do that becauseeverybody else is sitting there,
why didn't she say it to me? Butit really isn't about
(21:11):
publishing. It really, I mean,do. I get a lot of books from
people and great notes and thankyous and, But no, I don't want
it to ever be about anything butwriting to get the story out of
your body and to find out whoyou are. Beautiful.
What's the first thing I everwrote?
Wendy (21:35):
Do you remember the first thing you ever wrote?
Nancy (21:37):
Yeah, because in my family they didn't let us buy
Hallmark cards. They made usmake our own cards. What a gift
when I think back. How did theyeven come up with that? Probably
because we didn't have anymoney.
But I have a sister named Margieand I have no brother. And I
think I was seven and I made acard for my mother and, it said,
(21:59):
Happy birthday to mom, to momfrom Margie and Nancy and Tom
and Tom. My mother took it andshe looked at it and she looked
at me and she said, Oh honey,this is wonderful, but, who's
Tom? And I do remember rollingmy eyes and saying, It rhymes
with mom. And she was sophenomenal.
(22:22):
I mean, she could have nippedthe little writer in the bud,
but instead she lit up and went,Oh, like, what's wrong with me?
How did I not realize it? Oh,wonderful. And that kind of
early validation, which really Iwant every single kid to get, I
know it just moved me forward.And then in fourth grade, so
(22:44):
maybe I was eight or nine.
What's fourth grade? Eight?Nine, I think. Math teacher
passed out paper very first dayand said, I'd like to know each
and every one of you. Writesomething to me about yourself.
And the next day she read mineout loud and I had, I know, I
(23:08):
had written, I am very, verytall. All my friends are very
small. Whenever you look, Ialways show, gee, I wish my
friends would grow. I had twoearly, really big shoves that
said, keep going. And I justwant every kid to have that, but
(23:30):
you know, I did it with my kidsand you can't just, you can't
just give someone self esteem.
That has to be earned. And Idid, I mean, we want to talk
about, do you have kids?
Wendy (23:42):
No, don't. Not that it didn't happen this lifetime, no.
Nancy (23:45):
Yeah, you probably had 12 last time and you're exhausted.
Anyway, that was just one of mywrongest things because I wanted
everybody to have what I hadhad, that early, you're amazing
genius type thing. It was veryimportant. So it's kind of what
I do in the workshop. I also sayat the end, I don't teach
writing, I teach gushing.
(24:06):
And I think that we're such awithholding culture. I just want
people to say, oh my God, yourhair is gorgeous. By the way,
Wendy, your hair is gorgeous.
Wendy (24:16):
Thank you.
Nancy (24:17):
And I weren't standing in line in the bank behind somebody
and tap her on the shoulder andsay, Whatever you're wearing,
it's unbelievable. Never stopwearing it. Is it the shampoo?
Is it your perfume? Can't wejust tell everybody every minute
something good so that they canexhale?
You know? Anyway.
Wendy (24:36):
That was probably one of the most poignant memories I
have in my childhood was a awriting assignment in class. I
think I was in fifth grade, andI don't remember what the the
assignment was, but I remember Iwrote it was like a novella,
like a like a four page novella,and it had a beginning, a
(24:58):
middle, and an end. So it had anarc to it, and it was called
Adventures in Egypt, and it wasa little bit of fiction that I
wrote. I turned it in, and mygrandmother, Olga, who was
--this was a Catholic school--my grandmother, Olga, was the
music teacher, and for therecord, no one liked her. But I
(25:24):
was told that in the facultylounge at lunch that my teacher
read my story to the faculty.
Nancy (25:32):
I have chill bumps. Wow. But the teacher didn't tell you?
Wendy (25:36):
Olga told me I think the teacher was very, I mean, was
she didn't tell me that she readit to the faculty, but she told
me that that I should read
Nancy (25:46):
Oh, great. That
Wendy (25:49):
seed got planted in my Yeah. So my dream to be a rock
star, I started sharing thatwith my dream to be a writer
kicked in at that moment too, soit was like I
Nancy (26:01):
had this dream a star too. Applied for Innington when
they had a, you could do thething at home. Oh, Goucher. No,
not Goucher. It begins with a Gand it's Vermont.
Goddard. So Goddard, when I wasa housewife and I had two kids
and I was miserable and I wasdoing nothing And I had a sick
(26:22):
kid. Everything about my lifewas horrible. And I read that
Goddard would let you get yourdegree from home and you just
had to write an application andyou could do major in anything.
And I wrote that I wanted to bea rock and roll star.
I don't even know if they wroteback to me.
Wendy (26:42):
I was gonna say how'd that go? Yeah. So you could
almost be anything.
Nancy (26:47):
Singing in the shower still.
Wendy (26:50):
Well, that's another great creative expression is
singing. It really But
Nancy (26:56):
if we both wanted to be rock stars, I mean, was just
think in terms of the freedomthat it gave you, that you could
be wild on stage, you'd get theattention, you'd get to sing,
you could be, you could be, youknow, traveling with guys. I
mean everything about it was soattractive. Poor.
Wendy (27:13):
And now I sing on the on the vocal side prop for
burlesque shows.
Nancy (27:17):
Wow, that's great. That's great. So you get to do it.
Wendy (27:22):
Yeah, yeah, I found a way many years later, but and that's
because my friends are verygenerous with me and kind. But
anyway, I wanna get back to yourbook. I keep derailing the
conversation.
Nancy (27:36):
Oh, I do. The
Wendy (27:39):
vulnerability piece is so huge. Right? I mean, you
referenced that a lot in yourbook. I'd love to talk about it
a little bit right now because Ithink that's probably one of the
biggest obstacles for folks.Even for just private writing,
it can be really hard to be thatkind of vulnerable, but extra,
extra hard if you're going toshare your piece with someone
(28:01):
else.
Nancy (28:01):
You know, I think you just nailed probably the most
important part about writing apersonal narrative. When, you
know, I start the workshop and Itell everybody that I had been
in a mean spirited writinggroup, which is the truth. And
it was the first group I hadever been in. You know, they,
they responded to everybody'swriting before I, and they'd
(28:24):
been meeting for years and I wasinvited later after they'd been
together, these 14 women. Andthey would respond like, You
know, Harriet, I felt that yourcharacters were really rather
one dimensional.
I mean, I couldn't relate tothem. And they were just
horrible. And when it was myturn, I thought, well, I'm new,
(28:44):
they're not going to do it tome. And they did do it to me.
And I shut down after that.
And when I started my ownworkshop, the very first time I
ever did it, the same thinghappened. People criticized each
other. They tore each otherapart. I saw shoulders go up. I
saw faces get constricted.
I saw writing get generic. Itwas just unbelievable what
(29:06):
happened. And I had neverfacilitated a group before. I
had taught college English. Ihad taught high school English,
but I had never done anythinglike this before.
And I was failing and miserable,very unhappy. Ten Tuesday it was
over. I declared I'm never doingthat again. I'm not good at
that. I can't believe I letpeople destroy each other.
(29:28):
And you know how you have like alittle wise person in your
stomach who speaks up to yourbrain? I had a little wise
person. He said, No, you'regoing to do it again, but you're
going to do it right. What doyou mean right? You'll do it.
You'll do it right. So I putanother ad in and people came
And I said, you know, I've onlydone this once and I failed
(29:49):
miserably, but I learnedsomething. And that is that
creativity requires safety. Youwill be safe here. I have one
rule and that is when you finishreading, we will tell you what
we loved.
And people just aren't used tothat. They're used to being
criticized. They're used to betold, they're being told by the
boss, by the husband, by theuncle, by the eighth grade
(30:12):
teacher, what's wrong. And thisis such a first and it's just
unbelievable what happens. Andthen, you know, and then I tell
a lot of my own stories right inthe beginning.
And I am very lucky because myparents did lousy jobs about
everything, almost everything,but they were really good about
(30:33):
that vulnerability piece whereyou could show that you had a
broken heart, that you could cryin front of people, that you
could be real. And so I reallyset the tone and I know that
that's what happens is they'reseeing me sitting there laughing
and crying within the samesentence and I'm not going into
(30:54):
an institution to have it fixed.So when they see that and they
hear that, and then the firstperson writes the truth, a
really tough, truthful piece,and we respond and everybody's
shocked that you could actuallysay, wow, that was brilliant.
You just wrote about incest andyou're not ashamed. And we're
not telling you that you're abad person and we don't want to
(31:14):
hear that kind of stuff.
It just, it happens likedominoes. Everybody is just as
completely waiting to be able tobe real and be nude. And it is
naked. It is naked you could be.And it turns out that naked,
everybody's quite beautiful.
Wendy (31:34):
What a gift to give people that openness. I mean,
the criticism piece is justdevastating.
Nancy (31:41):
Not everybody.
Wendy (31:42):
I can get on another soapbox about that, especially
my experiences with thepublishing industry. Haven't
been great. It's soul crushing.
Nancy (31:55):
Yes, that's exactly the point.
Wendy (31:57):
When someone critiques your writing, because it's
coming from such a deep,intimate, personal place.
Nancy (32:04):
It's the most you of you. You're really it's you.
Wendy (32:07):
It should be. I mean, that's but I I certainly have
read things that don't I I don'tsee the the author in the
pieces. I just see I see aformula.
Nancy (32:18):
That's what's happened. It's like writing is so clever
and beautiful phrases and greatword combinations and so well
done and craft, but no soul. Nono who I don't care. Don't care
about this person. I need to Iwanna be crying with you.
I wanna be laughing to the pointof running to the bathroom with
you.
Wendy (32:39):
And what's amazing is that the essays that you've
included in here, and there area lot, and they're I mean, these
people are not professionalwriters. Right?
Nancy (32:48):
Exactly. That's the whole point is that everybody can do
this. These aren't the bestones. There are there are some
of the best ones, but they'reall the best ones.
Wendy (32:58):
They're amazing. Mean, are really high quality writing
and your writing is amazing too.
Nancy (33:05):
That's I didn't let them change anything by the way.
Unfortunately, we screwed up ona couple. There's one, Taffy
McCarthy's, where she starts outwith a much better first line,
and I don't know how I let uschange it, the first line, first
two lines, but it's stillkilling me. The next edition
will have the original lines.But I said when they sent me
(33:26):
these essays, don't changeanything.
I want them to know you wrotethis in fifteen minutes in class
or at night for the assignment.So that's what's so astounding
is that these are just so welldone.
Wendy (33:39):
And they're so vulnerable. That's the one that
you wrote, what is it calledMission Possible?
Nancy (33:44):
Which one was that?
Wendy (33:45):
That was the one about your husband wanting to open
things up in your marriage.
Nancy (33:53):
My god, you know, I was, I didn't even remember that I
wrote that and the editor whowas wonderful calls me and she
says, you need something for, Iforgot what, what category it
was, what secret it was. And shesaid, What about the one that
you wrote about your openmarriage? And I said, What open
marriage story? She said, Oh,you sent it me. And I read it
(34:17):
and I loved it without eventhinking how completely naked.
But luckily, I don't haveanybody that's going to say
we're not inviting you to dinneranymore.
Wendy (34:29):
Well, you wouldn't want to go to their house or dinner I
don't go. I mean but yeah.Again, we can be so silly. I
loved that you included thatparticular essay because it was
so completely naked. And so I itis an invitation.
(34:53):
Well, if Nancy can do it, then Ican do it. Not necessarily the
open marriage piece, but justthe writing about something
that's so totally naked. Honest.And I can't imagine
therapeutically how that workedfor you.
Nancy (35:08):
I can't remember, but I'm thrilled that I wrote it, and
I'm still in touch with the guy.Know, we are on a Wordle chain.
Wendy (35:16):
That's adorable. I know. Because that was a while ago,
yeah?
Nancy (35:19):
Oh, '19, let's see, we got married in 'sixty seven and
my husband just, I gotta showyou what he just did. This is
the cutest. First of all, youhave to meet Wendy. This is
Joel. Joel, say hi to Wendy.
Hi, Wendy.
Wendy (35:32):
Oh, hey. I didn't know you're right there. Hello, sir.
Nancy (35:35):
Yeah. I am a sir. I'm three. 80 three yesterday. Wait.
Yesterday?
Wendy (35:42):
Happy birthday to you. Wow.
Nancy (35:44):
So this is what he did. Give me this because you spelled
it wrong. I spelled it wrong.That's alright. I gotta show
her.
I gotta show her. It's soadorable. Can you read?
Wendy (35:55):
Poly polyam? It's been Polyammer. Oh, okay. I was like,
I couldn't figure out how topronounce what he
Nancy (36:01):
had- Well, polyamorous has become, I mean, we called it
an open marriage because it was1974. But now it's been, it's
really a big, I think I just setthe trend. What can I tell you?
My mother did before me. And we,and we heard later in life that
my mother did too.
Wendy (36:19):
Oh, no kidding. So it runs in the family. All right.
Nancy (36:22):
In the cells.
Wendy (36:27):
Yeah. I mean No. No. Okay. So we were talking about
vulnerability and the importanceof when you allow yourself to be
that kind of vulnerable on thepage, then it's a permission
slip probably that translates inyour everyday life to
Nancy (36:49):
You what, you just nailed another really huge piece of
wisdom. My sister said to mewhen we were really young, I was
really young, I was probably inseventh grade, and she said,
Tell your girlfriendseverything. Then they'll tell
you everything, and then you'vegot a solid, intimate
(37:09):
friendship. If they use itagainst you and you're betrayed,
then you'll know about thatperson, but you won't ever
change. Don't ever not tellsomebody close to you the truth
because that will deepen thefriendship and you will have a
friend for life.
What amazing advice.
Wendy (37:29):
That's great advice. And it's really what we all long
for. I mean, it's what we wouldcall in the psych world
emotional intimacy. And
Nancy (37:37):
without it, you know, then you have a surface
relationship. Hi, how are you?Oh, great. We had such a good
time Thursday. Who has time forthat now?
I don't, I don't. I want the gutstuff.
Wendy (37:53):
I agree. 100%, yeah, absolutely.
Nancy (37:59):
Oh, you do. We already know. Well,
Wendy (38:04):
what else? I mean, otherwise, what's the point? We
could talk about where we're atas a culture, and the disconnect
that we have.
Nancy (38:14):
Exactly.
Wendy (38:15):
Referencing the social media thing, it's like the
illusion of connection, but it'snot real
Nancy (38:20):
And that's why we can have war, and that's why we can
destroy each other the way weare right now, is because people
are not connected. Thedisconnect is huge, and the
illusion of connection.Unbelievable.
Wendy (38:34):
But if you peel all those things away, those surface level
things, we are pretty much Same.We are all the same. Yeah. I
mean, it sounds so cliched, butit's all just
Nancy (38:44):
want to be heard. We all just want to be held. We all
want to be we just want to besafe. Safe. To be who we are.
I know. Peeling away, but somepeople have huge cement over
their hearts.
Wendy (39:02):
Yeah, it's very sad. I mean, and a lot of folks do for
good reason, because they'vebeen hurt so many times, or
they've had tremendous trauma,and the thought of taking the
walls down is just sofrightening that can't imagine
No, they're
Nancy (39:16):
They're survivors. Listen, we're all survivors.
And, you know, that's why theworkshop is just so stunning for
me that I see people who havenever told anybody what they
then sit there and write aboutand sob and walk away feeling
like a truck has just beenlifted off their shoulders and
hearts.
Wendy (39:38):
Yeah, imagine that. You're carrying a truck And
Nancy (39:41):
people are.
Wendy (39:42):
And then you don't realize you're carrying it until
it's gone.
Nancy (39:45):
That's right, that's it. You're such nice girl.
Wendy (39:49):
Am I? Well it's all a facade.
Nancy (39:55):
No it's not, Wendela.
Wendy (39:58):
Wendela. I haven't somebody called me that a long
time ago.
Nancy (40:02):
Well, I'm Olga, only Jewish.
Wendy (40:07):
Jewish Olga. You'd have to have the green tongue to be
Olga. But you had red hair andgreen eyes and very Norwegian
and always sucked on Clorets andso her tongue was always green.
So when she would scream at thestudents, you would see this
green
Nancy (40:25):
Oh my god.
Wendy (40:27):
Contrasting the pale complexion and the red hair.
Nancy (40:31):
Oh, what a great description. And did everyone
know she was your grandmother?
Wendy (40:34):
Oh, yeah. Come up and give granny a hug at the end of
our class. After she justscreamed at everybody and was
slamming her hand on the top ofthe piano. Oh, good lord.
Nancy (40:49):
Anyway. Yeah.
Wendy (40:52):
You are teaching workshops.
Nancy (40:54):
Yes.
Wendy (40:55):
We've referenced them. How do you do the workshops? Are
they in person? Are they online?
Nancy (41:00):
Oh, they're in person. I did Zoom when we had those few
years of COVID. And I've donethem, and they're good. They
work. I break them into groupsand they go into rooms together.
And actually some of those roomshave stayed connected. They
write to me and say, we're stillmeeting. The original seven
people were still meetingonline. Thank you very much. And
(41:21):
I love that that's happening.
But I like to be in person. So Igo to Kripalu and how do I do
it? So I start out by telling myhorrible story of what happened
to me in that mean spiritedthing. And then I give a prompt
that is so universal and soeverybody has had this happen,
everybody writes it. And then weread out, you know, we tell them
(41:43):
the rule when you finish, whensomebody finishes reading, we
tell them what you don't have tocomment.
And then immediately, I mean, bythe first morning people have
already fallen in love with eachother. It's so beautiful to
watch. It happens every time.And by the end, so it's usually
four days. Here on the vineyard,it's four mornings.
(42:05):
People come down on a Sundaynight, it's Monday, Tuesday,
Wednesday, Thursday, nine tonoon. And they just end up, they
don't know what they do forjobs, but they know everything
else. It's just stunning, justthe most beautiful. You know, if
I had ever thought, what wouldyou like to be when you grew up
(42:26):
other than a rock star and amovie star and all the other
fantasies I had, this combineseverything that I love doing. I
get to be like a stand up comic,sitting down, which is even
better because you can rest.
And I get to watch people attheir absolute highest selves,
(42:47):
being kinder than ever, loving,supportive, cheerleading for
each other, no competition. Andthen I watch them get better and
better. I watch their writingimprove and I watch their
honesty get deeper. And then onThursday, nobody wants to leave
the yard, including me, eventhough I live here.
Wendy (43:08):
I get it. Haven't even been there and I don't want to
leave.
Nancy (43:12):
You're you're coming, I'm gonna get you.
Wendy (43:14):
I would love that.
Nancy (43:15):
Good, alright we'll pick a
Wendy (43:17):
And for the folks who are listening, Nancy's in Martha's
Vineyard and Kripalu is WesternMassachusetts.
Nancy (43:26):
And also Omega in Rhinebeck.
Wendy (43:28):
Oh, okay.
Nancy (43:29):
I have to follow in February. I don't know when you
air this.
Wendy (43:33):
It'll probably be after February is my It'll
Nancy (43:36):
Omega in Rhinebeck. And then the vineyard is there's one
in each month. One in May, '1 inJune, '1 in July, '1 in August,
'1 in September, '1 in October.That's it.
Wendy (43:47):
Okay, so in the summer into the fall. Great. Okay, so
how would people find out aboutyour schedule?
Nancy (43:54):
So it's Chillmark Writing Workshop, and Chillmark is c h I
l m a r k,chillmarkwritingworkshop dot
com. And by the time this airs,I'll have the schedule up on my
website. I'm doing it right now.I'm just figuring out. I have to
look and see what holidays.
I keep screwing up and doing it,Passover. And I, some other
(44:15):
holiday, it has to be in mycalendar. I'm the only one still
that is using a paper calendar.I know I am.
Wendy (44:22):
I have one.
Nancy (44:23):
Oh, good girl. There you go. So it
Wendy (44:24):
And guess what? I also don't have a cell phone, so
Really? I'm a Luddite, yeah.
Nancy (44:30):
Wow! I promise I'm a Luddite, but I live in my phone.
So how do you that's so you havea landline and that's it?
Wendy (44:39):
I have a voice IP, so voice Internet phone here at the
wellness center and at the atthe house. We don't have cell
service at our house anyway, butyou're not alone with the paper
calendar. And then I justthought I'd throw the cell phone
thing in there too because it'skind of in the same category.
Nancy (44:55):
It's almost writing workshop and it's four mornings
and that's the story, nine tonoon. And people come on Sunday
night. It's very expensive tostay, find a place to stay. The
workshop is very expensive, butif you're broke, you just tell
me that and we figure somethingout. I don't I don't, need the
(45:15):
whole money.
Wendy (45:17):
All right. Well, this has been super crazy fun. Am really
thankful that you, came on andchatted with me.
Nancy (45:26):
I know we're gonna meet. I'm gonna give you the workshop
as a gift, so you we're gonnameet because you're
Wendy (45:31):
gonna come gonna That's amazing.
Nancy (45:32):
So we just have to figure out when, so we'll do that and
make sure Heidi, knows that wecan
Wendy (45:40):
have Okay, I'll tell her. There's a shout out to Heidi in
the podcast
Nancy (45:44):
right Fabulous. Are just really, you put people at ease.
You're just easy. And no, that'snot a nice thing to say to you
that you're easy.
Wendy (45:55):
It's okay. I'll take it.
Nancy (45:58):
In the fifties, easy was not a, the implication isn't
good. You're accessible, andyour heart's huge, and I loved
it.
Wendy (46:07):
Oh, thank you so much.
Nancy (46:09):
You're welcome.
Wendy (46:10):
Right back at you. Man, she's fun, isn't she? And how
cute is her husband? Don't youjust wanna hang out with her and
chat and write and then chatsome more? Well, if you would
like to do just that, you cansign up for one of her workshops
at chillmarkwritingworkshop.com.
(46:33):
A link is in the show notes. Iso appreciate that you took the
time to listen to this episode.The podcast world has changed
pretty dramatically since Istarted in 2018. Small podcasts
like mine get lost in the mireof zillions of podcast options.
So the fact that you found thisone is amazing and I'm thrilled.
(46:55):
I've been hearing from more andmore listeners that they heard
about Lucid Cafe because afriend let them know about it,
which is the absolute bestcompliment you can get, really.
So thank you for spreading theword. It really, really, really,
really, really means a lot,truly. I'll be back with another
(47:15):
inspiring episode inviting youto reclaim your feminine power.
Until next time.
You're listening to Lucid Cafe. I'm your host, Wendy
Halley. Hello, and welcome toanother episode of Lucid Cafe.
(00:35):
In today's episode, we explorethe magic of writing and the
power of telling your story.Well, we're on the subject of
writing, it seems fitting to letyou know that I've got a new
book coming out on May 27 thatI'm nervous excited about.
(00:57):
Nervous because I have no ideaif people will enjoy it and
excited because man, I put a lotinto this book more than any
book I've ever written before.And to see it in its final
version, I got to admit it'skind of rewarding. It's called
(01:20):
Raven's Daughter. The story isshamanic flavored fantasy with a
side of near future sci fi. Mydear friend and partner in
absurdity, Claire Wheeler, didme a kindness and recorded an
episode with me to help me talkabout my new book.
That episode will be coming outin May. Alright. Enough about my
(01:45):
book. Let's get back to today'sepisode, which is an invitation
to the writer in you whetherthat part of you is asleep,
curious but reluctant, afraid,or a regular part of your life.
My guest Nancy Slonim Aronie,who by the way is one of my new
favorite humans, wants you toknow that writing is not an
(02:09):
exclusive club because everyonehas a really good story to tell
and usually not just one.
This conversation is very much aconversation, one that I enjoyed
very much. I'm hoping that youdo too. Nancy is the founder of
the Chillmark Writing Workshopon Martha's Vineyard and the
(02:32):
author of Memoir as Medicine andWriting from the Heart. She's a
regular commentator for NPR'sAll Things Considered. Nancy has
taught at Harvard University andconducted writing workshops and
lectures at Kripalu, Omega,Esalen, the Rowe Conference
Center, the Wainwright House,and the Open Center in New York
(02:54):
City.
So please enjoy my livelyconversation with Nancy Slonim
Aronie. Nancy, thank you so muchfor joining me.
Nancy (03:08):
Honored.
Wendy (03:09):
Okay, so do you consider yourself a writer by trade or do
you do other things?
Nancy (03:19):
Yes, I think I can consider myself a writer and a
sort of a midwife for otherpeople's writing. At least
that's what I've been called andI love it. But I've always done
these little art things and justlittle tiny little people and
wires and beads. And about eightmonths ago, a good friend of
(03:42):
mine, beautiful artist who's inthe best gallery on the island
came over and said, you youshould be in Greenery Gallery.
And I went, Yeah, right.
And she said, No, Nick, you'reserious. So she brought my she
took pictures and she brought itto the to this guy that, you
know, owns this really, reallyfine gallery. And he told her to
(04:03):
tell me to call him, and I did.And he said, brings this stuff
over. So my husband vacuumed thewhole back of the Volvo, the
ruggy part, you know, black.
And I put 15 of my pieces backthere and we drove over
carefully and opened the trunkand he looked in and he went,
Brilliant. I love this. Oh, Iwant that. I want that. How much
(04:30):
is this, by the way?
And I went, I don't know. Hesaid, How much? And I said, I
don't care.
Wendy (04:37):
What did he say?
Nancy (04:38):
You have to care. It was such a revelation that he was
making me respect these things.And I'm in that gallery.
Wendy (04:48):
So that's incredible.
Nancy (04:49):
It's so exciting because when I was young, really little
kid, I was eight, my sister was12 and I said, I'm going to be
an artist. And she said, no, I'mgoing to be an artist. You have
to be a writer. And I became awriter and she became an artist
and she died.
Wendy (05:06):
Oh my.
Nancy (05:08):
Years ago. And I swear she said, okay, your turn.
Wendy (05:12):
It's now your turn. Okay. And how obedient you were.
Nancy (05:15):
Yeah. Like, why didn't I say fuck you? It has come into
my lifetime yet.
Wendy (05:23):
And how fortunate that that gallery owner said that to
you?
Nancy (05:27):
Mean It's just been it's such a thrill because it
validated everything that firstof all, what I tell people all
the time is it doesn't matterwhat the art form is. Once you
open the vein, it just let ittake you where it's going to
take you. When you can't write,people talk about writer's
block. I don't really think ofit as writer's block. I just
(05:48):
think, okay, switch art.
Go get those little crepas andget some bumpy watercolor paper
and put a swath of aquamarine onthere and then smudge it with
your hand and go, Oh, I'mbrilliant.
Wendy (06:01):
Yes.
Nancy (06:01):
And then you'll get back to writing as soon as there's
something to write about. But inthe meantime, don't stop if
there's just another form foryou. So I got another form.
Wendy (06:12):
Yeah, I think that's brilliant. And I think it's a
great suggestion for any of us,right? Interestingly, I mean,
this is a little sidebar. Iinterviewed a woman recently who
did research on social media,influencer culture, and reality
TV on the developing brain.
Nancy (06:33):
Wow.
Wendy (06:34):
Yeah. It's fascinating. And she was talking about how
our minds, our brains arechanging in response to our
exposure to social media, likehow it's physiologically
changing. And that our brain ismore focused on the limbic
system or the the more primalparts of our brain that are more
(06:55):
emotional and reactive.
Nancy (06:56):
Oh, that's good. That's good. I thought you were going
to say it was more focused onproduct and selling and
marketing and not creativity.
Wendy (07:05):
Well, that's where I was going. She said the thing that's
getting lost is not developing,especially in in younger people,
is critical thinking. And therelationship between creativity
and critical thinking and theability to just tap into that,
if you're in that survivalemotive mode all the time, it's
(07:25):
hard to access your creativity.
Nancy (07:28):
Mhmm. And the imagination is gone, and you're being told
what to do by impugitives.
Wendy (07:35):
Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's why I think it's an extra
great message that you justshared because it's vital. I
mean, because we were sonaturally creative when we were
children. I mean, that's justhow we operated. The world was
filled with possibilities andmagic and then we'd get away
from that.
Nancy (07:52):
It wasn't just influencer stuff, was the third grade
teacher who said you can't writethat or draw that or trees have
to be green or aunt Sadie, youknow, or somebody that took away
your freedom.
Wendy (08:03):
Exactly, right.
Nancy (08:05):
How trees have to be green. Okay, I get it. Thank
you. I'll get an A now.
Wendy (08:09):
So maybe the title of this episode should be Fuck
That. So back to your book.Well, we didn't even start
talking about your book yet. Letme share what the title of it
is. It's Seven Secrets to thePerfect Crafting the Story Only
(08:31):
You Can Write.
So why do you think it'simportant for people to explore
essay writing?
Nancy (08:40):
Well, I think it's the most personal, the most personal
way of healing when it comes towriting. Because number one, you
find out what stuck. You findout what you're repeating over
and over and over again that youwant to maybe start to
transform. A lot of people say,Oh my God, I never remembered
that. I can't believe I justwrote that.
(09:02):
And it's the most you of you.It's when you have your opinions
validated on the page. It's nota treatise and it's not a
journalistic piece. It's yourgut, it's your heart, it's your
soul writing. So it's the truthof you.
And you can exaggerate, but it'syour story. It's this is who I
am. This is what happened to me.This is what I did with what
(09:23):
happened to me. So that personalway of being able to get that
stuff out on the page, I'm a bigbeliever.
And now it's been validated outin the medical world and your
stories are marinating. Yoursorrow is in your pancreas. It's
in your liver. It's in yourheart. And getting it out on the
page is just a phenomenal way ofletting stuff go.
(09:47):
And yeah, you might have towrite it. I've written one
particular story probably 35, 40five times. It's still not
healed, But every time I think Ilighten the load. And that's one
of the things, you know, gettingthat personal essay, getting
that story, getting an insight,a new way of looking at it,
like, Oh my God, I never saw itthat way. So that's, you know,
(10:09):
it's healing.
Wendy (10:11):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so, how would you, I know
you've probably answered thisquestion a million times, but
how would you discern thedifference between a general
essay and a personal essay?
Nancy (10:23):
A general essay probably is quoting other experts, it's
informational, and then personalis completely your own story.
And you can sneak your own storyinto a general essay and you can
do the opposite as well. You canput facts in a personal one, but
a personal essay really is yourstory. Nobody can deny it.
(10:47):
Nobody can say, fact check it.
Nobody can say this isn'taccurate. It's like, I'm cold.
Well, how can you say you'recold? Because I know I'm cold.
It's my story.
Wendy (10:58):
So then what do you let me figure out how to word this
question. That's another reasonwhy I edit.
Nancy (11:03):
Yeah, but that's great. I think that's that kind of
conversational tone is whatwould make me listen to this.
Wendy (11:10):
Yeah.
Nancy (11:11):
Yeah, let me think of how to phrase this question, yeah,
because you're being real. We'reso starved for real.
Wendy (11:20):
Well then I'm not gonna edit this part out because I
normally would.
Nancy (11:25):
Good. No edit. Do not edit it.
Wendy (11:29):
Alright. So note to self, leave it in. I guess the the
direction my brain was going inis there's a certain thing that
happens when you sit down towrite, and you kind of alluded
to this a little bit ago.There's, like, a surprising
(11:49):
nature to it. It's like you canreread something that you wrote
and be like, holy shit.
Did I write that?
Nancy (11:56):
Yes. That's exactly right. How do you explain that?
I I think, Lauren, this is gonnasound woo woo, but I really
don't think you're alone whenyou're writing. I think once you
make the the commitment to sitdown, I think you are now
opening yourself up to whoeverwants to come in and help you.
You know, I used to call thereference desk at the library
(12:17):
when I lived in Connecticut,when I needed the name of a
river and I wanted it to beginwith an L and I wanted it to be
three syllables. And I wouldcall and you would literally
call me back three days laterand now you can just Google, but
I think, or someone would callme on the phone and go, we were
just in Laos and we went to theLa La La La River. And I would
(12:40):
go, oh my God, how does thathappen? I think partially being
willing to put your butt on thechair, you're already halfway
there and you will get adelivery system. And you're also
channeling.
You're just opening yourself up.You're a conduit now and you're
clear. You're a flute. Andyou've just said, come on in. So
(13:00):
I don't know how it works, but Ido know it works.
Wendy (13:02):
It is a mystery, isn't it? I mean, when I look back in
some of my pieces that I'vewritten in the past, I'm like, I
don't remember writing that.It's the weirdest thing.
Nancy (13:12):
You know, before we got on the Zoom call, I said, Oh,
she's going to ask me questionsabout the book. I'd better read
some of it. And I startedreading and it's really, some of
it, what I read was really good.And I don't know where that came
from. I don't know who's writingit.
(13:33):
So it's exactly what you'resaying.
Wendy (13:34):
Exactly. Yeah. It's kind of like, well,
Nancy (13:37):
check me out. I'm better than I thought. And then her
mom's going, oh my god, I letthat go?
Wendy (13:42):
And and then that speaks to how painful we can make the
process for ourselves. It,thinking that we have to get it
right or have to get it perfect.
Nancy (13:51):
There has to be a trust. I happen to be very easy on
myself. And I'm in a writinggroup, which is great. Because
they, they will not always say,Oh my God, that was fabulous.
They'll say, You know, I thinkyou have two pieces in here.
In fact, I have a funny story.When I first got married, I
called my husband at work and hewas an engineer at Pratt and
(14:12):
Whitney, a big, huge firmcompany. And I said, can I read
you something? And he was like,okay. Because he was busy and he
wasn't a boss.
And I would read him the piece.I read, I remember this one
time, I read him the piece andhe goes, I think you have two
pieces in there. And I said,Fuck you, you don't know
anything about writing. And Ihung up and I had pieces in
(14:33):
there. So, I'm pretty easy onmyself.
I love, I love just pouring itout and I have learned how to be
a little tougher and work alittle harder. But in the old
days, I would just writesomething and say that's it.
Wendy (14:46):
Wow, thought I was the only one who did that. I'm
serious. Yeah, yeah. It's wildbecause I'm usually like, all
right, I think I'm good here.There's something about just the
process of getting it out.
Nancy (15:00):
And also, I mean, maybe we do have a gift of that first
time with just a couple ofchanges, you know? I don't, I
don't have to anguish over thisstuff. There are people that do
and that, and that's anotherstyle. It's not wrong to work.
But what I say to the peoplethat take the workshop is don't
squeeze the joy out of it.
(15:21):
You know, you're working so hardthat you've just squeezed the
life out of it. Just let it be.Read it. Read out loud. Read
your stuff out loud.
That's the biggest, probably thebiggest clue I can give anybody
in the writing game is to readyourself out loud because you'll
hear what's wrong. You'll hearwhat's perfect. You'll hear what
needs another LY or another
Wendy (15:44):
Yeah, there's a cadence, a rhythm that I'm looking for
when I'm writing and then alsoreading what I wrote. And if
it's not there, then I have togo back
Nancy (15:53):
and We have the same style.
Wendy (15:55):
That's weird, I thought, again, we were talking about our
ADHD brains before we startedrecording.
Nancy (16:02):
Yeah.
Wendy (16:02):
And I thought that I was just anomalous in that way, but
apparently not.
Nancy (16:07):
Probably, but that's if we have, instead of, being the
opposite.
Wendy (16:12):
I imagine then that means that there are other people,
possibly someone who might belistening right now, who's like,
oh, me too, that's great.
Nancy (16:20):
Good. Take away that guilt. Enjoy yourself when
you're writing.
Wendy (16:24):
Yeah. It should be enjoyable. And you've written a
really inviting book for peoplewho wanna explore. Well, I guess
explore themselves, really.
Nancy (16:34):
Yep.
Wendy (16:34):
Which is getting back to what you were saying before. The
whole point of writing apersonal essay is is to get to
know yourself better and toheal, especially things that are
sort of brewing inside of youthat you may not be completely
in touch Yes,
Nancy (16:48):
exactly. You know, I sometimes say at the end of the
workshop, I could call thisworkshop Writing to Heal, but
nobody would come. But that'swhat happened. They wouldn't, I
mean it's like two, a lot of,certainly guys wouldn't come.
Wendy (17:06):
Yeah, unfortunately that's true, probably. Yeah. Not
to use stereotypes, but there'sa reason why stereotypes are
stereotypes, right?
Nancy (17:14):
Yeah. Right. Anyway, you were you were heading to a
question, and I I
Wendy (17:19):
Well, it was it it's more around it was the observation of
how inviting your book is, and Ihighly encourage people to pick
up a copy of your book becauseof how vital it is to have have
a relationship with yourself inthis way, and writing is a great
tool to be able to do that. AndI'm guessing you would suggest
(17:41):
that everyone is a writer,whether they want to be a writer
or not, but everyone can do it.
Nancy (17:46):
Definitely, definitely. I mean, people got screwed in
school and in their nuclearfamily. Somebody told them,
you're dangling participles. Youdidn't use subjunctive, whatever
it is. You can't write.
And it ruined a lot of people.And a lot of people say, I can't
write. But yeah, I mean, you cantalk, you can write. And, you
(18:06):
know, I'm sorry that thathappened to so many people, but
when people come to theworkshop, they say, you know,
I'll say, you're reclaiming yourvoice that got taken away
somewhere down the line. So it'sreally about voice and being
able to say, I'm not worriedabout what you're going to think
about me.
Wendy (18:23):
Which is a superpower, right, to be able to get to that
point. It is very hard.
Nancy (18:27):
You have to say every single day what other people
think of me is none of mybusiness. That's one of my
favorite things.
Wendy (18:34):
I love that. That's great. It should be a bumper
sticker or a t shirt
Nancy (18:38):
or something. Probably is somewhere.
Wendy (18:42):
And I'm thinking that that could actually be a really
good prompt for a personal essayis something along the lines of
when I was told I I was notwriting Yeah.
Nancy (18:53):
That that
Wendy (18:53):
Or when I was criticized or something like that in
general.
Nancy (18:57):
The prompts, it's really good to have it so narrowed down
that they can't that it's not sohuge. Like when mister Stefanian
said, keep your day job, andeverybody laughed in class, da
da da da da you know, whatever.The more specific the prompt can
be, the easier it is because Iwatch and as soon as I give the
(19:18):
prompt, people go right intowriting it. You don't ever see
someone sitting there trying tothink. And I think school, when
they had us write, they werejust so open.
You know, my summer vacation.
Wendy (19:31):
I mean, that's another secret. Maybe that secret 7A is
a very specific prompt to help.Because now that I'm thinking
about all the prompts you havein your book, they are very
specific, and there's not a lotof room to get caught in. How
should I answer I
Nancy (19:47):
mean, think the book, the reason I'm getting really good
feedback on the book and thereason I'm thrilled with it is
because, you know, I put otherpeople's, mostly other people's
essays in there and they'redifferent and the voices are
different. And I think that'sthe invitation for the reader to
say, Oh. I mean, that's whatHolden Caulfield did for me. You
(20:10):
know, when I heard him, when Iwas, I don't know how old I was
when I read it, but it was, Oh,you can sound like that? You
don't have to be prithy wise topale fun lover.
Prithy wise to don't have to beShakespeare. You can write as a
person. So that's one of thethings. It's a permission to
sound like you, to have yourlanguage, your rhythms, your
(20:32):
story, and not think you have tobe smart or sound a certain way.
It's your voice, and that'sgold, you know.
Wendy (20:40):
I love that. So, do you encourage people to publish or
do you just encourage people towrite for the sake of writing?
Nancy (20:48):
I often, you know, I start out by saying this is not
about publishing, this is aboutprocess. But sometimes someone
will read something and I'll go,I know this is against my rules,
but you have to send that. Youhave to send that for Father's
Day. You have to get that intoyour local paper. Please send it
immediately.
And I shouldn't do that becauseeverybody else is sitting there,
why didn't she say it to me? Butit really isn't about
(21:11):
publishing. It really, I mean,do. I get a lot of books from
people and great notes and thankyous and, But no, I don't want
it to ever be about anything butwriting to get the story out of
your body and to find out whoyou are. Beautiful.
What's the first thing I everwrote?
Wendy (21:35):
Do you remember the first thing you ever wrote?
Nancy (21:37):
Yeah, because in my family they didn't let us buy
Hallmark cards. They made usmake our own cards. What a gift
when I think back. How did theyeven come up with that? Probably
because we didn't have anymoney.
But I have a sister named Margieand I have no brother. And I
think I was seven and I made acard for my mother and, it said,
(21:59):
Happy birthday to mom, to momfrom Margie and Nancy and Tom
and Tom. My mother took it andshe looked at it and she looked
at me and she said, Oh honey,this is wonderful, but, who's
Tom? And I do remember rollingmy eyes and saying, It rhymes
with mom. And she was sophenomenal.
(22:22):
I mean, she could have nippedthe little writer in the bud,
but instead she lit up and went,Oh, like, what's wrong with me?
How did I not realize it? Oh,wonderful. And that kind of
early validation, which really Iwant every single kid to get, I
know it just moved me forward.And then in fourth grade, so
(22:44):
maybe I was eight or nine.
What's fourth grade? Eight?Nine, I think. Math teacher
passed out paper very first dayand said, I'd like to know each
and every one of you. Writesomething to me about yourself.
And the next day she read mineout loud and I had, I know, I
(23:08):
had written, I am very, verytall. All my friends are very
small. Whenever you look, Ialways show, gee, I wish my
friends would grow. I had twoearly, really big shoves that
said, keep going. And I justwant every kid to have that, but
(23:30):
you know, I did it with my kidsand you can't just, you can't
just give someone self esteem.
That has to be earned. And Idid, I mean, we want to talk
about, do you have kids?
Wendy (23:42):
No, don't. Not that it didn't happen this lifetime, no.
Nancy (23:45):
Yeah, you probably had 12 last time and you're exhausted.
Anyway, that was just one of mywrongest things because I wanted
everybody to have what I hadhad, that early, you're amazing
genius type thing. It was veryimportant. So it's kind of what
I do in the workshop. I also sayat the end, I don't teach
writing, I teach gushing.
(24:06):
And I think that we're such awithholding culture. I just want
people to say, oh my God, yourhair is gorgeous. By the way,
Wendy, your hair is gorgeous.
Wendy (24:16):
Thank you.
Nancy (24:17):
And I weren't standing in line in the bank behind somebody
and tap her on the shoulder andsay, Whatever you're wearing,
it's unbelievable. Never stopwearing it. Is it the shampoo?
Is it your perfume? Can't wejust tell everybody every minute
something good so that they canexhale?
You know? Anyway.
Wendy (24:36):
That was probably one of the most poignant memories I
have in my childhood was a awriting assignment in class. I
think I was in fifth grade, andI don't remember what the the
assignment was, but I remember Iwrote it was like a novella,
like a like a four page novella,and it had a beginning, a
(24:58):
middle, and an end. So it had anarc to it, and it was called
Adventures in Egypt, and it wasa little bit of fiction that I
wrote. I turned it in, and mygrandmother, Olga, who was
--this was a Catholic school--my grandmother, Olga, was the
music teacher, and for therecord, no one liked her. But I
(25:24):
was told that in the facultylounge at lunch that my teacher
read my story to the faculty.
Nancy (25:32):
I have chill bumps. Wow. But the teacher didn't tell you?
Wendy (25:36):
Olga told me I think the teacher was very, I mean, was
she didn't tell me that she readit to the faculty, but she told
me that that I should read
Nancy (25:46):
Oh, great. That
Wendy (25:49):
seed got planted in my Yeah. So my dream to be a rock
star, I started sharing thatwith my dream to be a writer
kicked in at that moment too, soit was like I
Nancy (26:01):
had this dream a star too. Applied for Innington when
they had a, you could do thething at home. Oh, Goucher. No,
not Goucher. It begins with a Gand it's Vermont.
Goddard. So Goddard, when I wasa housewife and I had two kids
and I was miserable and I wasdoing nothing And I had a sick
(26:22):
kid. Everything about my lifewas horrible. And I read that
Goddard would let you get yourdegree from home and you just
had to write an application andyou could do major in anything.
And I wrote that I wanted to bea rock and roll star.
I don't even know if they wroteback to me.
Wendy (26:42):
I was gonna say how'd that go? Yeah. So you could
almost be anything.
Nancy (26:47):
Singing in the shower still.
Wendy (26:50):
Well, that's another great creative expression is
singing. It really But
Nancy (26:56):
if we both wanted to be rock stars, I mean, was just
think in terms of the freedomthat it gave you, that you could
be wild on stage, you'd get theattention, you'd get to sing,
you could be, you could be, youknow, traveling with guys. I
mean everything about it was soattractive. Poor.
Wendy (27:13):
And now I sing on the on the vocal side prop for
burlesque shows.
Nancy (27:17):
Wow, that's great. That's great. So you get to do it.
Wendy (27:22):
Yeah, yeah, I found a way many years later, but and that's
because my friends are verygenerous with me and kind. But
anyway, I wanna get back to yourbook. I keep derailing the
conversation.
Nancy (27:36):
Oh, I do. The
Wendy (27:39):
vulnerability piece is so huge. Right? I mean, you
referenced that a lot in yourbook. I'd love to talk about it
a little bit right now because Ithink that's probably one of the
biggest obstacles for folks.Even for just private writing,
it can be really hard to be thatkind of vulnerable, but extra,
extra hard if you're going toshare your piece with someone
(28:01):
else.
Nancy (28:01):
You know, I think you just nailed probably the most
important part about writing apersonal narrative. When, you
know, I start the workshop and Itell everybody that I had been
in a mean spirited writinggroup, which is the truth. And
it was the first group I hadever been in. You know, they,
they responded to everybody'swriting before I, and they'd
(28:24):
been meeting for years and I wasinvited later after they'd been
together, these 14 women. Andthey would respond like, You
know, Harriet, I felt that yourcharacters were really rather
one dimensional.
I mean, I couldn't relate tothem. And they were just
horrible. And when it was myturn, I thought, well, I'm new,
(28:44):
they're not going to do it tome. And they did do it to me.
And I shut down after that.
And when I started my ownworkshop, the very first time I
ever did it, the same thinghappened. People criticized each
other. They tore each otherapart. I saw shoulders go up. I
saw faces get constricted.
I saw writing get generic. Itwas just unbelievable what
(29:06):
happened. And I had neverfacilitated a group before. I
had taught college English. Ihad taught high school English,
but I had never done anythinglike this before.
And I was failing and miserable,very unhappy. Ten Tuesday it was
over. I declared I'm never doingthat again. I'm not good at
that. I can't believe I letpeople destroy each other.
(29:28):
And you know how you have like alittle wise person in your
stomach who speaks up to yourbrain? I had a little wise
person. He said, No, you'regoing to do it again, but you're
going to do it right. What doyou mean right? You'll do it.
You'll do it right. So I putanother ad in and people came
And I said, you know, I've onlydone this once and I failed
(29:49):
miserably, but I learnedsomething. And that is that
creativity requires safety. Youwill be safe here. I have one
rule and that is when you finishreading, we will tell you what
we loved.
And people just aren't used tothat. They're used to being
criticized. They're used to betold, they're being told by the
boss, by the husband, by theuncle, by the eighth grade
(30:12):
teacher, what's wrong. And thisis such a first and it's just
unbelievable what happens. Andthen, you know, and then I tell
a lot of my own stories right inthe beginning.
And I am very lucky because myparents did lousy jobs about
everything, almost everything,but they were really good about
(30:33):
that vulnerability piece whereyou could show that you had a
broken heart, that you could cryin front of people, that you
could be real. And so I reallyset the tone and I know that
that's what happens is they'reseeing me sitting there laughing
and crying within the samesentence and I'm not going into
(30:54):
an institution to have it fixed.So when they see that and they
hear that, and then the firstperson writes the truth, a
really tough, truthful piece,and we respond and everybody's
shocked that you could actuallysay, wow, that was brilliant.
You just wrote about incest andyou're not ashamed. And we're
not telling you that you're abad person and we don't want to
(31:14):
hear that kind of stuff.
It just, it happens likedominoes. Everybody is just as
completely waiting to be able tobe real and be nude. And it is
naked. It is naked you could be.And it turns out that naked,
everybody's quite beautiful.
Wendy (31:34):
What a gift to give people that openness. I mean,
the criticism piece is justdevastating.
Nancy (31:41):
Not everybody.
Wendy (31:42):
I can get on another soapbox about that, especially
my experiences with thepublishing industry. Haven't
been great. It's soul crushing.
Nancy (31:55):
Yes, that's exactly the point.
Wendy (31:57):
When someone critiques your writing, because it's
coming from such a deep,intimate, personal place.
Nancy (32:04):
It's the most you of you. You're really it's you.
Wendy (32:07):
It should be. I mean, that's but I I certainly have
read things that don't I I don'tsee the the author in the
pieces. I just see I see aformula.
Nancy (32:18):
That's what's happened. It's like writing is so clever
and beautiful phrases and greatword combinations and so well
done and craft, but no soul. Nono who I don't care. Don't care
about this person. I need to Iwanna be crying with you.
I wanna be laughing to the pointof running to the bathroom with
you.
Wendy (32:39):
And what's amazing is that the essays that you've
included in here, and there area lot, and they're I mean, these
people are not professionalwriters. Right?
Nancy (32:48):
Exactly. That's the whole point is that everybody can do
this. These aren't the bestones. There are there are some
of the best ones, but they'reall the best ones.
Wendy (32:58):
They're amazing. Mean, are really high quality writing
and your writing is amazing too.
Nancy (33:05):
That's I didn't let them change anything by the way.
Unfortunately, we screwed up ona couple. There's one, Taffy
McCarthy's, where she starts outwith a much better first line,
and I don't know how I let uschange it, the first line, first
two lines, but it's stillkilling me. The next edition
will have the original lines.But I said when they sent me
(33:26):
these essays, don't changeanything.
I want them to know you wrotethis in fifteen minutes in class
or at night for the assignment.So that's what's so astounding
is that these are just so welldone.
Wendy (33:39):
And they're so vulnerable. That's the one that
you wrote, what is it calledMission Possible?
Nancy (33:44):
Which one was that?
Wendy (33:45):
That was the one about your husband wanting to open
things up in your marriage.
Nancy (33:53):
My god, you know, I was, I didn't even remember that I
wrote that and the editor whowas wonderful calls me and she
says, you need something for, Iforgot what, what category it
was, what secret it was. And shesaid, What about the one that
you wrote about your openmarriage? And I said, What open
marriage story? She said, Oh,you sent it me. And I read it
(34:17):
and I loved it without eventhinking how completely naked.
But luckily, I don't haveanybody that's going to say
we're not inviting you to dinneranymore.
Wendy (34:29):
Well, you wouldn't want to go to their house or dinner I
don't go. I mean but yeah.Again, we can be so silly. I
loved that you included thatparticular essay because it was
so completely naked. And so I itis an invitation.
(34:53):
Well, if Nancy can do it, then Ican do it. Not necessarily the
open marriage piece, but justthe writing about something
that's so totally naked. Honest.And I can't imagine
therapeutically how that workedfor you.
Nancy (35:08):
I can't remember, but I'm thrilled that I wrote it, and
I'm still in touch with the guy.Know, we are on a Wordle chain.
Wendy (35:16):
That's adorable. I know. Because that was a while ago,
yeah?
Nancy (35:19):
Oh, '19, let's see, we got married in 'sixty seven and
my husband just, I gotta showyou what he just did. This is
the cutest. First of all, youhave to meet Wendy. This is
Joel. Joel, say hi to Wendy.
Hi, Wendy.
Wendy (35:32):
Oh, hey. I didn't know you're right there. Hello, sir.
Nancy (35:35):
Yeah. I am a sir. I'm three. 80 three yesterday. Wait.
Yesterday?
Wendy (35:42):
Happy birthday to you. Wow.
Nancy (35:44):
So this is what he did. Give me this because you spelled
it wrong. I spelled it wrong.That's alright. I gotta show
her.
I gotta show her. It's soadorable. Can you read?
Wendy (35:55):
Poly polyam? It's been Polyammer. Oh, okay. I was like,
I couldn't figure out how topronounce what he
Nancy (36:01):
had- Well, polyamorous has become, I mean, we called it
an open marriage because it was1974. But now it's been, it's
really a big, I think I just setthe trend. What can I tell you?
My mother did before me. And we,and we heard later in life that
my mother did too.
Wendy (36:19):
Oh, no kidding. So it runs in the family. All right.
Nancy (36:22):
In the cells.
Wendy (36:27):
Yeah. I mean No. No. Okay. So we were talking about
vulnerability and the importanceof when you allow yourself to be
that kind of vulnerable on thepage, then it's a permission
slip probably that translates inyour everyday life to
Nancy (36:49):
You what, you just nailed another really huge piece of
wisdom. My sister said to mewhen we were really young, I was
really young, I was probably inseventh grade, and she said,
Tell your girlfriendseverything. Then they'll tell
you everything, and then you'vegot a solid, intimate
(37:09):
friendship. If they use itagainst you and you're betrayed,
then you'll know about thatperson, but you won't ever
change. Don't ever not tellsomebody close to you the truth
because that will deepen thefriendship and you will have a
friend for life.
What amazing advice.
Wendy (37:29):
That's great advice. And it's really what we all long
for. I mean, it's what we wouldcall in the psych world
emotional intimacy. And
Nancy (37:37):
without it, you know, then you have a surface
relationship. Hi, how are you?Oh, great. We had such a good
time Thursday. Who has time forthat now?
I don't, I don't. I want the gutstuff.
Wendy (37:53):
I agree. 100%, yeah, absolutely.
Nancy (37:59):
Oh, you do. We already know. Well,
Wendy (38:04):
what else? I mean, otherwise, what's the point? We
could talk about where we're atas a culture, and the disconnect
that we have.
Nancy (38:14):
Exactly.
Wendy (38:15):
Referencing the social media thing, it's like the
illusion of connection, but it'snot real
Nancy (38:20):
And that's why we can have war, and that's why we can
destroy each other the way weare right now, is because people
are not connected. Thedisconnect is huge, and the
illusion of connection.Unbelievable.
Wendy (38:34):
But if you peel all those things away, those surface level
things, we are pretty much Same.We are all the same. Yeah. I
mean, it sounds so cliched, butit's all just
Nancy (38:44):
want to be heard. We all just want to be held. We all
want to be we just want to besafe. Safe. To be who we are.
I know. Peeling away, but somepeople have huge cement over
their hearts.
Wendy (39:02):
Yeah, it's very sad. I mean, and a lot of folks do for
good reason, because they'vebeen hurt so many times, or
they've had tremendous trauma,and the thought of taking the
walls down is just sofrightening that can't imagine
No, they're
Nancy (39:16):
They're survivors. Listen, we're all survivors.
And, you know, that's why theworkshop is just so stunning for
me that I see people who havenever told anybody what they
then sit there and write aboutand sob and walk away feeling
like a truck has just beenlifted off their shoulders and
hearts.
Wendy (39:38):
Yeah, imagine that. You're carrying a truck And
Nancy (39:41):
people are.
Wendy (39:42):
And then you don't realize you're carrying it until
it's gone.
Nancy (39:45):
That's right, that's it. You're such nice girl.
Wendy (39:49):
Am I? Well it's all a facade.
Nancy (39:55):
No it's not, Wendela.
Wendy (39:58):
Wendela. I haven't somebody called me that a long
time ago.
Nancy (40:02):
Well, I'm Olga, only Jewish.
Wendy (40:07):
Jewish Olga. You'd have to have the green tongue to be
Olga. But you had red hair andgreen eyes and very Norwegian
and always sucked on Clorets andso her tongue was always green.
So when she would scream at thestudents, you would see this
green
Nancy (40:25):
Oh my god.
Wendy (40:27):
Contrasting the pale complexion and the red hair.
Nancy (40:31):
Oh, what a great description. And did everyone
know she was your grandmother?
Wendy (40:34):
Oh, yeah. Come up and give granny a hug at the end of
our class. After she justscreamed at everybody and was
slamming her hand on the top ofthe piano. Oh, good lord.
Nancy (40:49):
Anyway. Yeah.
Wendy (40:52):
You are teaching workshops.
Nancy (40:54):
Yes.
Wendy (40:55):
We've referenced them. How do you do the workshops? Are
they in person? Are they online?
Nancy (41:00):
Oh, they're in person. I did Zoom when we had those few
years of COVID. And I've donethem, and they're good. They
work. I break them into groupsand they go into rooms together.
And actually some of those roomshave stayed connected. They
write to me and say, we're stillmeeting. The original seven
people were still meetingonline. Thank you very much. And
(41:21):
I love that that's happening.
But I like to be in person. So Igo to Kripalu and how do I do
it? So I start out by telling myhorrible story of what happened
to me in that mean spiritedthing. And then I give a prompt
that is so universal and soeverybody has had this happen,
everybody writes it. And then weread out, you know, we tell them
(41:43):
the rule when you finish, whensomebody finishes reading, we
tell them what you don't have tocomment.
And then immediately, I mean, bythe first morning people have
already fallen in love with eachother. It's so beautiful to
watch. It happens every time.And by the end, so it's usually
four days. Here on the vineyard,it's four mornings.
(42:05):
People come down on a Sundaynight, it's Monday, Tuesday,
Wednesday, Thursday, nine tonoon. And they just end up, they
don't know what they do forjobs, but they know everything
else. It's just stunning, justthe most beautiful. You know, if
I had ever thought, what wouldyou like to be when you grew up
(42:26):
other than a rock star and amovie star and all the other
fantasies I had, this combineseverything that I love doing. I
get to be like a stand up comic,sitting down, which is even
better because you can rest.
And I get to watch people attheir absolute highest selves,
(42:47):
being kinder than ever, loving,supportive, cheerleading for
each other, no competition. Andthen I watch them get better and
better. I watch their writingimprove and I watch their
honesty get deeper. And then onThursday, nobody wants to leave
the yard, including me, eventhough I live here.
Wendy (43:08):
I get it. Haven't even been there and I don't want to
leave.
Nancy (43:12):
You're you're coming, I'm gonna get you.
Wendy (43:14):
I would love that.
Nancy (43:15):
Good, alright we'll pick a
Wendy (43:17):
And for the folks who are listening, Nancy's in Martha's
Vineyard and Kripalu is WesternMassachusetts.
Nancy (43:26):
And also Omega in Rhinebeck.
Wendy (43:28):
Oh, okay.
Nancy (43:29):
I have to follow in February. I don't know when you
air this.
Wendy (43:33):
It'll probably be after February is my It'll
Nancy (43:36):
Omega in Rhinebeck. And then the vineyard is there's one
in each month. One in May, '1 inJune, '1 in July, '1 in August,
'1 in September, '1 in October.That's it.
Wendy (43:47):
Okay, so in the summer into the fall. Great. Okay, so
how would people find out aboutyour schedule?
Nancy (43:54):
So it's Chillmark Writing Workshop, and Chillmark is c h I
l m a r k,chillmarkwritingworkshop dot
com. And by the time this airs,I'll have the schedule up on my
website. I'm doing it right now.I'm just figuring out. I have to
look and see what holidays.
I keep screwing up and doing it,Passover. And I, some other
(44:15):
holiday, it has to be in mycalendar. I'm the only one still
that is using a paper calendar.I know I am.
Wendy (44:22):
I have one.
Nancy (44:23):
Oh, good girl. There you go. So it
Wendy (44:24):
And guess what? I also don't have a cell phone, so
Really? I'm a Luddite, yeah.
Nancy (44:30):
Wow! I promise I'm a Luddite, but I live in my phone.
So how do you that's so you havea landline and that's it?
Wendy (44:39):
I have a voice IP, so voice Internet phone here at the
wellness center and at the atthe house. We don't have cell
service at our house anyway, butyou're not alone with the paper
calendar. And then I justthought I'd throw the cell phone
thing in there too because it'skind of in the same category.
Nancy (44:55):
It's almost writing workshop and it's four mornings
and that's the story, nine tonoon. And people come on Sunday
night. It's very expensive tostay, find a place to stay. The
workshop is very expensive, butif you're broke, you just tell
me that and we figure somethingout. I don't I don't, need the
(45:15):
whole money.
Wendy (45:17):
All right. Well, this has been super crazy fun. Am really
thankful that you, came on andchatted with me.
Nancy (45:26):
I know we're gonna meet. I'm gonna give you the workshop
as a gift, so you we're gonnameet because you're
Wendy (45:31):
gonna come gonna That's amazing.
Nancy (45:32):
So we just have to figure out when, so we'll do that and
make sure Heidi, knows that wecan
Wendy (45:40):
have Okay, I'll tell her. There's a shout out to Heidi in
the podcast
Nancy (45:44):
right Fabulous. Are just really, you put people at ease.
You're just easy. And no, that'snot a nice thing to say to you
that you're easy.
Wendy (45:55):
It's okay. I'll take it.
Nancy (45:58):
In the fifties, easy was not a, the implication isn't
good. You're accessible, andyour heart's huge, and I loved
it.
Wendy (46:07):
Oh, thank you so much.
Nancy (46:09):
You're welcome.
Wendy (46:10):
Right back at you. Man, she's fun, isn't she? And how
cute is her husband? Don't youjust wanna hang out with her and
chat and write and then chatsome more? Well, if you would
like to do just that, you cansign up for one of her workshops
at chillmarkwritingworkshop.com.
(46:33):
A link is in the show notes. Iso appreciate that you took the
time to listen to this episode.The podcast world has changed
pretty dramatically since Istarted in 2018. Small podcasts
like mine get lost in the mireof zillions of podcast options.
So the fact that you found thisone is amazing and I'm thrilled.
(46:55):
I've been hearing from more andmore listeners that they heard
about Lucid Cafe because afriend let them know about it,
which is the absolute bestcompliment you can get, really.
So thank you for spreading theword. It really, really, really,
really, really means a lot,truly. I'll be back with another
(47:15):
inspiring episode inviting youto reclaim your feminine power.
Until next time.
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