#569 Tax Lawyer QnA: Strategies The Rich Use to Avoid Paying Taxes

In this episode of the Main Street Business Podcast, Mark J. Kohler and Mat Sorensen dive into listener questions about tax and business planning. From maximizing deductions on rental properties to creative financing strategies for commercial real estate and smart ways to restructure an LLC, they address the biggest tax and business concerns entrepreneurs and investors face.

Here are some of the highlights:

• Mark explains the benefits of short-term rentals, including accelerated depreciation and cash flow.
• Mark & Mat provide a detailed explanation of how short-term rentals can be grouped under the 469-4 election and the importance of material participation.
• The importance of understanding the long-term play when dealing with short-term rentals.
• A breakdown of various creative solutions like subleasing and seller financing to mitigate the financial burden.
• The potential of seller financing and the benefits of carrying the paper for a premium.
• The possibility of condominium conversion as a unique solution to increase a property's value.
• Mark & Mat discuss the potential pitfalls of borrowing against equity and the importance of generating income to pay debt service.
• The importance of keeping assets that have great cash flow or appreciation and the potential for 1031 exchanges.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Main Street Business Podcast with
your distinguished hosts, mark JKohler and Matt Sorenson.
Both are best-selling authorsand have over 25 years of
industry experience, with 10,000client consultations, making
them the leading tax and legalexperts in the nation.
Together, they'll unpack themost complex tax, legal and
financial strategies crucial forsaving more, stressing less and

(00:23):
building generational wealth.
Today they're your personaladvisors, ready to break it down
for you and make the tax andlegal game easier than ever.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
Here is Mark and Matt .
Look at, say, jeff Bezos oreven Donald Trump.
Well, that's what they do, andeverybody knows those guys both
live the billionaire lifestyleand have.

Speaker 3 (00:42):
This is how people make money.
I don't care if you havefull-time jobs or not, you're
retired or not.
Do I need?

Speaker 2 (00:49):
to file an updated BOI.
I'm getting inconsistentresults when I search for this
on the internet.
What needs to be done?
Nothing.
Don't waste your time.
Well, we're going to use aWyoming LLC owned by a revocable
living trust as the trustee forthe land trust Wow, okay.
As the trustee for the landtrust Wow, okay.
Well, I need a drink.
Welcome everyone to the MainStreet Business Podcast.

(01:10):
This is Matt Sorensen, joinedby the incredible Mark J Kohler,
and we are excited to be withyou today because it is open
forum.

Speaker 3 (01:17):
Yeah, I love open forum.
In fact, right before the showstarted here, I was doing a
little research to make sure Ihad the correct answer and
strategy.
A lot of times you can have theright answer, but just because
you can do it doesn't mean youshould.
There's strategy involved.

Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah, yeah, right.
Many people learn that lessonlater on in life.
Just because you can doesn'tmean you should.

Speaker 3 (01:38):
Yeah, that's when you're like drinking spicy
margaritas, taking bad decisions.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yeah, this is sage advice.
Well, and I have to say too, aswe've been doing this show over
the years, the questions aregetting harder.
Yeah, yeah.
I feel like we've gottensmarter, but the questions are
getting harder too, and we'veattracted an audience of a lot
more sophisticated people and alot of other professionals.
I think when they get stumped,they throw their question into
us, and we like some of that.

Speaker 3 (02:02):
That too, you know it's funny you bring that up
because Click and Tack the CarTalk brothers.
I forgot the one that passedaway a few years ago, god rest
his soul.
What a great show.
But it was funny, it was theopposite for them.
They started the Car Talk showfor mechanics in the Boston area
like hey, we're gonna give youbreak down your technical

(02:22):
answers for these mechanics.
And then they were so freakingfunny the average person started
listening to them.
And then the show startedending up with should I buy a
car for my 16-year-old, or whydoes my car veer to the left?
And they're like you need torotate your tires, but of course
let's go another direction.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah, people calling in what's this clump clump,
clump, clump sound?
What's this clump clump, clumpclump sound, you know like yeah.
So and we went from what's anLLC to you know, short-term
rental, grouping elections, yeah, and it's tax code citations
within questions and milliondollar numbers inside of these
stuff I mean.
So we both got two tricky onesteed up, but but I love them.

(03:02):
And I'll say this I think,whether you're someone new
starting out or whether you'resomewhere experienced down the
road, there's a lot of lessonsin this and um, and that's the
great thing about those peopleasking the questions.
So I'm just going to say thatthank you for the people asking
the questions.
You can get tomainstreetbusinesspodcastcom.
You can submit your questionthere.
We've got a lot of listenersthat submit their questions
there.
Mark and I pick through theones we think of almost helpful

(03:23):
for the show and we all get tolearn from it.
Even Mark and I got to researchthis stuff and on this one I
know Mark's got teed up.
I'm going to take some notesbecause I got something to learn
on that one.

Speaker 3 (03:34):
I couldn't answer that one.
It's a good one.
And sometimes again, it's justyou don't know what you don't
know, and so it's fun to listento the show because you're like,
holy crap, I didn't even thinkto ask that and it's wonderful.
So we want to say thank you.
We really love what we do andit's a lot of fun.

(03:55):
Okay, well, I guess I have itteed up.
Should we go?
Yeah, let's do it.
Okay.
So this is from Beasley 11 daysago.
Said thank you for your missionto help small business in their
American dreams, mark and Matt.
So thank you so much for that.
So, all right.
So he's asking about short-termrentals and this loophole.
We can spend a whole hour onthat, but there is a loophole.
If you buy a short-term rental,you don't have to be a real

(04:19):
estate professional to takelosses from that short-term
rental with accelerateddepreciation.
That's kind of the goal, andshort-term rentals can cash flow
better than a long-term rental.
But then you also have moreseasonal risk and a little more
involvement, obviously, withpeople checking it out.
So there's pros and cons.
Some people love the short-termrental strategy, some don't.
But from a tax perspective youcan unlock some great write-offs

(04:43):
versus the long-term rentalwhere you need to prove real
estate professional you or yourspouse, okay.
So with that in mind, he says,is the section 469-4, grouping
election, allowed for multipleshort-term rentals to be
considered one activity?
Then he says, tongue in cheek,after reading the books, it

(05:05):
looks like short-term rentals,properties with average rental
days of seven or less, do notqualify for grouping under
rental activities.
So he's kind of like come on,does this work or not?
Because I don't think it does.
To overcome this hurdle, itlooks like short-term rentals
must qualify as a trade orbusiness to be grouped together.
There aren't too many placeswhere trade or business is

(05:29):
unequivocally defined.
And then, going back to thequestion, do short-term rentals
qualify as a trade or businessto be eligible for grouping?
All right, so this is a verytechnical question.
We could talk about it inlength, but let me just answer
it directly and say this the469-9 election is what real
estate professionals use togroup long-term rentals, qualify
for material participation andthen take losses against their

(05:53):
ordinary income.
If you're a real estateprofessional, that's when you
would use the 469-9 electionVery common.
You group your rentals together, boom ba, bada-bang.
With short-term rentals they donot qualify under that grouping
election dash nine.
Because they're not a rentalactivity, because you have

(06:13):
average stay of less than sevendays, which is what you want to
qualify for the short-termrental loophole.
You keep good records, multiplerentals throughout the year,
yada, yada, yada.
So an Airbnb example you wouldvery well have less than a
seven-day average stay for yourguests.
Well then you go over to the469-4 election and yes, you

(06:36):
can't.
This is one of these.
You can, but should you?
But you can under the 469-4election group your short-term
rentals because they arequalifying as a trade or
business group.
They are not rental propertyunder the code, because less

(06:57):
than seven-day rental makes thema hotel.
It kind of puts them in thatclassification.
I'm doing an Airbnb or a bed andbreakfast.
That's not a rental In the eyesof the code.
Rentals are long-term.
So, anyway, you would use 469-4, realize that you're not a
rental activity and that you'regrouping as a trade or business.

(07:18):
Now why would you do this?
See, in order to take care ofthis loophole, you have to show
material participation.
So you'd put in 100 hours ofwork throughout a period of time
to get this property ready forshort-term rental.
Now, patty and I did this lastyear.
Matt has a short-term rental, Ihave a short, we have two or
three now.
We love these.

(07:38):
I like to throw in a tool belt,go get this thing ready to go.
That's how I relax in theevening.
I put in my hundred hours.
Now I qualify for the loophole.
Don't have to be a real estateprofessional.
Well, if you group thoseshort-term rentals so let's say
you bring three of them onlinein a given year, now I can put
in a hundred hours over threeshort-term rentals I make the

(08:00):
material participation bang.
I'm in.
So if you don't have the timeto put all that time into one
short-term rental or it doesn'tneed that much time that would
be the year when you bring it onboard to say I'm going to do a
twofer, I'm going to bring twoshort-term rentals on, group
them, qualify under the materialparticipation, do the dash four
.
The problem is you turn it intoa long-term rental next year.

(08:24):
Okay, now you have to undo thegrouping.
Now you are a rental activity.
These are irrevocable elections.
So now you have to getpermission from the IRS to
unelect the group as a dash four.
Not fun and complicated, sounderstanding.
This is why working with thetax advisor is so important

(08:45):
because they're going to askwhat's your long-term play here.
Are you just going to goharvest these write-offs in year
one and then turn around andmake it a long-term rental, or
are you really building aportfolio of short-term rentals
and remember, grouping is reallyso that you could get those
losses unlocked?
Well, once you harvest all thelosses in year one short-term
rentals, cash flow that's thewhole goal of a short-term

(09:06):
rental.
Long-term rentals you've gotnegative loss, you've got
write-offs, but break-evencashflow are a little better.
Short-term rentals you betterbe cashflow.
So you normally don't want togroup the short-term rentals,
even though you can.
You've got to think what's mylong-term play here?
So I hope that answers yourquestion, beasley, and opens a
whole new world for some of youas well.
Make sure you think long andabout the long play of when you

(09:27):
do a short-term rental.
I know that soundscounterintuitive, but play on
words.
But that's where it's at and Ilove the long-term strategy and
the short-term strategy.
They're both could be grouped,but under different code
sections for different reasons.
Understand why.
Awesome.

Speaker 2 (09:41):
See, that's why you get on this show.
You know you learn some of thetricks there, because there's
nuance to this and that's whythe tax code is what?
Tens of thousands of pages andwhy even Congress itself doesn't
even understand what the hellit is.
But it also provides value forus as tax lawyers to help you
and find the loopholes so youcan go right through them.
Yeah, exactly, all right.
Andrew's got a great questionhere.

(10:02):
He said appreciate your podcast, huge fan of both of you on
YouTube and otherwise.
I have a commercial office unitin a pass-through LLC that my
S-corp rents and since COVID,the office commercial market in
my area took a near 50% decline.
Fortunately, my otherinvestments have been great, but
you can't win them all.
All right, I love your outlook.

Speaker 3 (10:20):
Andrew, but, but he rents it to himself.
Yes, rents it to his own escort.
Oh, this is Dash 4.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
Yeah, we're back to Dash 4.
He's not even in that laneright now what he's asking?
Because he's got an investmentquestion more than anything and
kind of like what do I do?
He's got some other great taxquestions.
Here too, he said is there anangle that I can use other than
selling for a loss or perhaps a1031 exchange?
Hope and Gold depreciationcomes back.
He says not likely all the wayback.

(10:43):
He bought it at $1.6 million,he has a $1 million mortgage and
while I pay rent to myself andcan afford it, I don't need the
office since we are now mostlyremote and could unload it at a
loss or 1031 exchange.
You wouldn't want a 1031exchange how much did he buy it
for?
$1.6?
$1.6.
He's got a $1 million mortgageand he says the value's gone
down 50%.
So it's 800,000 value.

(11:05):
Wow, Okay so he's upside down onit 200K with the mortgage, he
says.
Just looking for ideas, I couldrent it to someone else, but it
would be a 4,000 a monthdeficit If I move out and rent
it.
I'm doing a cost seg on it toget something out of it but
can't think of anything elsewhile I'm operating my business.
I'm fine Just renting it frommy S corp and holding it, but is

(11:26):
there a way to unload it?
I would prefer it.
I got a I got a great idea Okay.

Speaker 3 (11:36):
And, by the way, do not do cost seg until you
resolve this Cause, if you docost seg.
Now you're going to have torecapture when you do years,
mark and I yeah, what to do withthe problem?
Property, what?

Speaker 2 (11:45):
to do with the problem property.
This could be your singlefamily rental.
This could be the propertyyou're renting from yourself.
Now it's a little nuance herethat your business is renting
for it.
I think I got a good solution.
We'll see.
I'll let Mark comment if itsucks or not.
Andrew, you decide for yourself.
Okay, generally what?
When we're looking at aproperty, it's like does it have
equity and is it negative cashflow?

(12:07):
If you hit both those bucketswhere you're upside down on it
and it's negative cash flow,we're in the column of maybe you
should sell this.
Let's get out from under it,because you could be throwing
good money at bad.
You're throwing money into thisand this is your single family
rental.

Speaker 3 (12:23):
Now can I say what everybody Matt's saying here is
there's two issues.
Sometimes we have clients thatare upside down equity but they
still break even cashflow.
Or some people are negativecashflow but they have equity.
Okay, those are differentissues.
He's this double whammy.

Speaker 2 (12:35):
Yeah, he's got the double whammy, which it's upside
down and it's negative cashflowand that's really the driver is
the negative cashflow andthat's really the driver is the
negative cashflow.
Because there's a cost everymonth Andrew's incurring here of
continuing to hold thisinvestment property, this rental
property.
Now, the nuance here is that heis the tenant, renting too, and
when he's paying the rent it'san expense, okay, when his

(12:58):
S-corp is paying it, he'sexpensing the rent from his
S-corp.
Now he's saying, well, I couldleave that as the tenant and get
someone else in there.
And he's probably paying enoughrent right now to cover the
mortgage and to break even onthe property, right, but that's
still costing his business,which could otherwise be profit,
right?
So let's say you're paying 10Ka month, andrew.

(13:19):
I don't know what you're payinga month.

Speaker 3 (13:21):
And if you rent it to someone else it'd be 6K a month
.
So you're upside down, for ifyou rent to someone else, your
escort pays 10 and you take careof the mortgage.
Okay, like it, I'm following Onwith 10.

Speaker 2 (13:30):
Now we're like, okay, well, you're expensing 10.
All right, you're getting adeduction on that in your
company, so maybe you knowthat's saving you If you just
stop paying it and let someoneelse pay that 4K.
Now you're coming out of pocket$6,000, which is not great, and
that's going to be a passiveloss.

Speaker 3 (13:51):
I've got two more ideas too.
This is good, keep going.

Speaker 2 (13:56):
Here's what I would do Since your company is already
leasing it from your LLC, yourS-corp, I would keep that.
I would enter into a subleaseagreement for the $6,000 a month
that you think you can get outof it, let's say, and that other
$4,000 deficit, your S-corpstill has to pay it because it's
responsible on the loan.
So now you're breaking even onthe property still and you're

(14:21):
getting subsidized rent from thesubtenant because they're
actually going to use theproperty, because you're like we
don't need it, but your Scorporation is still on the
lease, paying for that 4,000,just like could happen with a
lot of tenants right now.
We've seen a lot of people thatare in and I've seen this with
other clients that are inlong-term leases and they've
gone remote.
Well, what do they do?
They go sublease it.
Well, the sublease tenant isn'tgoing to pay the full rent that

(14:42):
they are stuck on their leasefor.
So but, but it covers some ofit, and so they're at least
ahead a little bit in gettingthat covered.
So I like that because you'restill getting an expense, we get
to cover some of that cashflowthat you'd otherwise come out of
pocket at, I think.
I think that's a good option,because the point I want to make
here of the goal is, if we lookat commercial office right now

(15:07):
of the goal is if we look atcommercial office right now,
it's at a low value point.
We don't buy high and sell low.
Okay, you already bought highon this property.
Let's at least sell high on theproperty, which means don't
sell at the bottom of the market.
Commercial office is a disasterright now and that's why you're
at 50% decline Now I don't know, is it three years, five years,
till that recovers?
It's going to recover at somepoint.
And this is you're talkingabout losing $800,000 to sell

(15:32):
now.
I think losing 4,000 a monthfor the next three years might
be worth it to come back and notlose all that money.

Speaker 3 (15:39):
Okay, I got a counter .
I take your bet and raise two.
Okay, now I'm going to counterand say this too, what Matt said
in a sexy way you're still outan extra four grand Bottom line
cashflow.
It's going to cost you four,but you're getting a write-off
for that four directly in yourS-corp.
So okay, so it kind of eased thepain.

(16:01):
But Matt opened the door to acouple of parts.
I like subleasing.
A lot of people are workingfrom home.
They don't need a full buildingor a full space, but they need
some space.
Yeah, so you could turn thisinto more of an office share
scenario.
Yeah, true, Get creative, likesee if you could bifurcate or
subdivide the property intosubleasing spaces where people
are willing to pay more per footfor a smaller space, and maybe

(16:24):
you mitigate that $4,000 to2000,.
Just with some more creativeleasing ideas.
Don't know what the buildinglooks like.
Number two you said he's goingto lose 800 grand.
That's sunk cost.
He bought it for 1.6.
He's got a million dollarmortgage.
If he sold it for 800 now,because that's what he said it's

(16:45):
worth, his loss is really 200.
He's got to come out of pocketfor 200 grand to break the
mortgage and then the burden'soff his back.
No more loss cashflow per month, blah, blah, blah.
But seller you hear me outseller financing A lot of times.
There might be a buyer outthere that can't qualify for
even an $800,000 mortgage on abuilding.

(17:06):
They're looking for a deal.
Go out and find a seller for amillion.
A buyer, yeah, go find a buyerat one million and carry the
paper.
Let them do an assumption wherebetween you and them, put it in
a trust.
Be careful, the bank may wantto call a dude if they figure
out what's going on.
But do a for sale by owner.
Get a million dollars If theydefault property's back to you.

(17:30):
If not, you could ask for a bigdeposit on that.
But find someone that's got abuying problem.
They don't have good credit.
They're willing to pay apremium for terms.
See, it's either price or terms.
So now you could give awayterms.
Yeah, that's a good idea.

Speaker 2 (17:43):
There might be a buyer out there that you could
do seller finance.
Leave the existing debt therein place, make them refinance it
in five years or something, orthree years.
It gets them into the propertytheir business could operate.
It cover the mortgage.
That could be a good optionhere For me.
I'm just thinking of like thisis an investment asset for
Andrew, you know, and I justthink you know, even though that

(18:04):
there's sunk costs in what heput down to get the property
with the mortgage.
I just think and this is youknow this, we're not in that
this is an investment advice.
I don't fricking know, but I'mjust saying what is your cost to
carry this?
If it's 4,000 a month, 48 granda year to try and get through
the next three to five years,for $800,000 to get back to?

(18:24):
where you were, so you might beat 200K.
I'm just saying that could beworth it.
So you got to run the numbers.
I don't know.
For me that's probably what Iwould do, but now you might be
like Matt.
You're crazy.
It's going to be 10 yearsbefore that gets back to what I
bought it for.
But even so, are you stillahead?
You might be, even if it's 10years head.

Speaker 3 (18:43):
You might be, even if it's 10 years.

Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, I'm going to read it.

Speaker 3 (18:45):
Okay, I got one more idea.
This is super fun.
I got one more idea.
You'll like this one too.
But let me say back on theMatt's point though let's say a
property went down 50% in value.
That's pretty significant, it'shappening in commercial office.

Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yeah, yeah, it's happening in commercial office.

Speaker 3 (19:02):
It is happening with commercial across the country.
But still, I mean, when aproperty goes down 20%, okay,
four or five years from now Ican get back to square one or
more, but 50% I mean I'd reallylike to see what the development
plans are in the area, what thecity is doing, the county or
wherever it's at area, what thecity's doing the county or
wherever it's at, because you'vegot to see something big happen

(19:23):
, to see if that type ofreduction get made up for and
some appreciation maybe, I don'tknow Big deal.
Okay, here's my last option.
Okay, Condominium ice.

Speaker 2 (19:33):
How big is this?

Speaker 3 (19:34):
We don't know the size of the building or the
layout.
But Matt and I have purchasedcondominium pieces of a
commercial building.
Yeah, twice yeah, if youhaven't heard about this.
So let's say you've got thiscommercial building and say it's
with fees, getting I don't know.
Let's say it's 5,000 squarefeet.
Well, throwing in four doors,four more doors, you could carve
this up into five 1,000 squarefoot spaces and now you could

(20:00):
with a proper.
It'd take you six months or soat least, probably working with
the city or county.
But now all of a sudden you'vegot five units you can sell
rather than one unit, and all ofa sudden you get back to a one
or 1.2 million value Becausepeople still need commercial.
They just don't need as much.
So if you could carve this upinto commercial condominium
space, I'd talk to a realtor, gofind out what's in the market

(20:22):
right now for commercialcondominium space at a fifth of
what you've got, or a fourth orwhatever, and start going.
Huh, talk to a real estatelawyer and go, how much would it
cost me to carve this up?
And then what would I get onthe sales?
I mean, within a half a day ofanalysis you'd find out if the
idea is workable.

Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yeah, yeah, it's called the condo conversion.
It's called the condoconversion.
It can go apartment buildingsto condominiums, apartment units
.
Sometimes those are a littlemore tricky going from apartment
to a condominium forindividuals, but going office to
condominium is a lot easierbecause it's just commercial
office zoned either way, and soyou just got to make sure the
building is big enough.
Maybe you can get 1,000 squarefoot units and break it up,

(21:01):
because you definitely there's alot more buyers in that small
business space for 1,000 squarefeet than there might be for 10.
We don't know how big yourspace is here.
So a couple options to getcreative there, but tricky.
I know there's a lot of peoplein this situation.
There's definitely distress inthe commercial market.
The rest of real estate seemsto be doing okay, not in the

(21:22):
dumpster, but okay.
He had a few questions on this.
We're going to stick with him,huh.

Speaker 3 (21:25):
Yeah, yeah.
We said yeah, companies aregood.
Okay, what if?

Speaker 2 (21:28):
I sold to my self-directed IRA.
Is there anything there?
No, you can't do that becauseyou can't sell from your called
the Prohibited Transaction.
By the way, we have ourdirected IRA podcast, our sister
podcast Mark and I both do.
Every week we're getting allthe rules on how to use your IRA
to buy real estate and privateassets, private companies,

(21:48):
startups, crypto.
It's awesome, that's what we doat our company Directed IRA but
not a solution here.
Andrew, your IRA could buyother real estate, but it can't
buy real estate from you.
Yeah, and I guess there's someother questions here.
But, andrew, you might justneed to consult um on some of
these other questions.
I mean that 1031 on a loss of aproperty, that's not not even a
strategy.

Speaker 3 (22:08):
Do that for the gains um.

Speaker 2 (22:10):
He also asked about simple iras.
Simple iras are okay, there'snot, there's just it's
irrelevant to this topic.

Speaker 3 (22:17):
We can get into that you need to focus on this
building issue and I think wegave you three or four options
that might mitigate the loss orjust help you decide whether you
move forward or not.
But stay away from the cost segagain unless you're invested to
give, like Matt said, anotherfive-year run at this.
Then go harvest the cost seg,take the write-off in the S-corp
, maybe get some moresub-tenants in there that help

(22:38):
you cover more of thatforeground.
All right, here's a questionfrom Jean 180, jean SH 180.
Hey, I wanted to get your takeon Mark Kwan's new book.
Be Smart, pay Zero Taxes, usethe buy borrow die strategy to
get rich and stay rich.

(22:58):
To get rich and stay rich Okay,I don't know, mark Kwan, I
don't want to.
I haven't read the book, butthis concept of buy borrow die
strategy is nothing new.
Maybe this guy has a bettertake on it in some unique way,
but we've got some I've got.
I take issue with it a littlein several ways and maybe Matt,

(23:21):
you, you love it, like it, butI'm not sure what you think.
Here's my first problem.
Look at, the basis of the bookis to get rich and stay rich.
Okay, when you're going intodebt, you're reducing the equity
and value of your property.
You're literally living on theequity of what you've built.
You're not increasing yourwealth.

(23:45):
You may be not paying taxes,borrowing that money, but to get
rich, you want to build equity.
You want to build value thatcreates cashflow.
Borrowing from that equityreduces my wealth.
Okay, very important pointNumber two is getting rich.

(24:06):
Some people would say, well,it's not about equity market,
it's about cashflow.
Okay, cashflow.
And let's think about this I'mgoing to go buy a property
somehow.
Now you make money in realestate when you buy, I get it.
So if you get a killer deal,you put down some money, you get
a mortgage and it's worth morethan the purchase price you got.
Totally, you got angle on it.
Maybe you put in some sweatequity.
Now you have more equity thatyou can borrow against.

(24:28):
Right, because you bought realestate, you put money down or
bought it with cash.
Now you're going to borrow fromyourself.
That's really what you're doing, unless you created more equity
in that real estate.
Okay, cool.
So now you're going to borrowagainst it.
That's debt service.
So now I got to go generatemoney to pay the debt service.
So you're like well, I'm livingtax-free.

(24:51):
I borrowed from that equity inmy property.
I don't pay taxes on that.
Knock yourself out.
Who's paying that payment?
You got a mortgage payment.
Now you got a debt payment.
You'd got.
You took that debt out tax-free, but now I got to go generate
income somewhere I think you'regoing to pay tax on that To make
a payment on debt you don't geta write-off for.
You don't get a write-off fordebt oh well, I get a write-off

(25:13):
for the interest.
Oh, now you're paying interestto live tax-free.
What Bottom line?
I think it's a littlenonsensical.
It's a sexy title.
It works technically in theshort run, but it's not
sustainable and I would stayaway.

Speaker 2 (25:32):
Yeah, I think you know this is something that
people look at, say Jeff Bezosor even Donald Trump, and
they're like, well, that's whatthey do.
I mean, they go accumulateassets that appreciate in value,
whether it's Donald Trumpbuying real estate or Jeff Bezos
with all his Amazon stock, andeverybody knows those guys both
live the billionaire lifestyleand have, but they have very

(25:55):
little income on their taxreturns.
Right, this is their both theirtax returns got disclosed back
in what was this?
2020 or something like that2016.
2016.
Okay, well, that was the yearsthat were disclosed, but this is
like maybe four or five yearsago, their returns and a lot of
their high net worth people,elon Musk, got disclosed and
people are like, well, but JeffBezos doesn't sell his stock.
Donald Trump doesn't sell hisreal estate, so how does he get

(26:16):
that value out of it?
Oh, he gets loans against them,because when he gets a loan
against it, he's not selling theasset, getting a capital gain,
he's not having income.
Same thing with Bezos with hisstock.
So in those instances, what'shappening is they're getting
debt against assets thatappreciate in value.
Obviously, amazon's had aridiculous growth rate, far

(26:36):
better than the interest rate,cost the cost on the debt, and
you could say the same thingwith Donald Trump on his real
estate portfolio.
So I think you can look atthose as examples, with a lot
more zeros behind them than whatmany of us may do, but you
could look at that as one way todo it.
As that I'm going to get debtagainst my assets, use that debt

(26:57):
to live on or make otherinvestments that could generate
more return than the cost of thedebt.
Now, this strategy I love thisstrategy a lot more three or
four years ago, when interestrates were four or 5%, that you
could strip out equity on arental property or maybe even a
stock portfolio.
You could get a loan againstthat.
I shot a video on how to dothat, by the way, on my YouTube.

(27:19):
But so but now, you know, ratesmight be 8% for these types of
loans now, maybe seven on realestate or six possibly, but so
now I've got a lot bigger costto that which Mark was talking
about the interest rate costs,especially if you're just using
it for personal expenses.
If I'm deploying it to otherinvestments that can beat that
interest rate hurdle, you knowwhere I'm getting 10% plus

(27:41):
return.
Okay, I like it, but I'd becareful I wouldn't do that in
speculative stuff like crypto orthings that could go.
Really they're very volatile inrelation to, you know, debt
against your real estate orstock portfolio that might
otherwise be a little lessvolatile.
So I like it.
I just think it's a littledangerous.

(28:03):
Remember the cost to the debt,and just because it might work
for certain high net worthpeople doesn't mean it's the
best for your strategy, for youand your assets.
So just consider those factors.
The other thing I'll say is.
You know, I think WarrenBuffett's partner, charlie

(28:23):
Munger, said the biggest, one ofthe biggest threats that he
thought there was out there wasthe three L's liquor, ladies and
leverage.
Okay.

Speaker 3 (28:38):
This is the threats to your life.
Okay, this is him you know, andthis is the leverage part.

Speaker 2 (28:43):
Okay, this is getting debt and this is the leverage
part.
Okay, this is getting debt.
Now I get the die part.
We get the step up in basis onall these assets and even and
they can pay off the debtbecause the assets have the
value the kids don't pay any taxbecause they got step up in
basis and I generally lovekeeping assets, I'll assets that
are have great cashflow orappreciation on them.
Let's never sell those, never.

(29:04):
It takes so much time togenerate assets.
Stop selling them, keep them.

Speaker 3 (29:09):
Well, maybe 1031 them or yeah, but yeah, if there's a
better asset.

Speaker 2 (29:12):
you know if there's a better asset drive greater
returns.
So I'm not totally against it,I get it.
Let's strip out some equity,some value on those and enjoy it
without selling it If we thinkthere's still growth ahead in
them and the otherwise cancashflow.
But you want to take some, youwant to enjoy some of that
wealth.

Speaker 3 (29:27):
Yeah, it's going to be a one-off.
The stars have to align to makethis a lifestyle.
I think the book is let's makea lifestyle of get rich, borrow
everything, blah, blah, blah.
No, but from time to time theremay be an opportunity on a
particular asset to do this, andI like.
So I'm going to say in summarywhat I took from your comment,
matt, was that, hey, mark, yeahthat on a sustainable lifestyle

(29:48):
basis, great point.
But there are going to be thoseisolated instances where
borrowing from an asset wherethe debt service and the
situation allows for sometax-free income, and I like that
.
Those times can arrive.
Okay, man, it's your turn.
You got to give us a BOIquestion.
Yeah, I got a BOI one yeah.
This will be short order.

Speaker 2 (30:08):
Yeah, and remember the BOI reporting requirement is
no more Okay.
This filing you had to send tothe federal government saying
who owns 25% or more of your LLCor corporation or who's in
substantial control.
That's gone.
The Treasury Department, backon March 2nd 2025, was like you
don't need to file this anymore.
We're not enforcing it, we'regoing into rulemaking on it.
Try and limit it.

(30:29):
So let's get into what's thequestion about it.
They just said yeah.
He says.
He said I created a corporationlast year and filed my BOI
report this year.
I plan to close the corporation.
Do I need to file an updated BOI?
I'm getting inconsistentresults when I search for this
on the internet.
I looked at the FinCEN websiteand I don't see where it
includes dissolved companies.

(30:49):
Any ideas on what needs to bedone?
Nothing.
That's the good news, ga4cl.
Nothing needs to be doneBecause you don't need to file
it to start your entity or todissolve it.
And I won't even get into whatyou would need to do if BOIs
come back into case, because forsmall business, this is just
not going to need to be on yourradar.
Don't waste your time, Don'tstress about it and everyone
else setting up new LLCs orcorporations.

(31:10):
Or you may have done a BOI oryou never did the BOI.
You're waiting until the lastminute.
Don't worry about it, it's offthe agenda.

Speaker 3 (31:27):
Stay, brought back from life, somehow resuscitated,
but I think that's not likely.
Yep, okay S Gooddale, 514.
Hey, matt and Mark, long timelistener, subscriber, big fan.
Thank you Writing because myhusband and I have a duplex that
we own and thanks to yourguidance on the topic, Well,
thank you.
And she says our kids do theraking and shoveling in order to
justify their contributionsinto Roth IRAs, so they're
paying their kids to work in thebusiness.
It sounds like they're underage 18.
Love it.
My husband's a high schoolteacher.
We are hoping to take some timeoff this summer to visit some

(31:49):
national parks.
Love it.
I understand from listening toyour content that we might be
able to write off some of thisas a family board meeting.
However, the rental is not abusiness as such.
We'll come back to that.
This is to say, we both havefull-time jobs, such that
neither is a real estateprofessional.
Okay, interesting comments.
My questions are one can westill write off our trip?
Two, what percentage for whatworth will we?

(32:11):
Probably we will spend about10K.
What steps are required tojustify this?
I assume we need to establishan LLC, put the deed in the
property, mortgage in the nameof LLC and lest all the family
members minors as members arethere, must do dah, dah, dah,
dah dah.
Okay, s Goodale, this is hugeand for everybody listening.
We've got to again dispel somemisunderstandings here and I

(32:34):
talk with all loving care foryou.
First of all, this is afreaking business, people, when
you have a rental property, it'sa business.
I don't care if you havefull-time jobs or not, you're
retired or not, you have noother full-time job or not, it
doesn't.
A rental property is a business.
Own it as such and that's okay.

(32:54):
You can write off home officeand any expense related there to
cell phones and office suppliesand tools and costs of managing
the property, blah, blah, blah.
Then she says and neither isthis a real estate professional,
doesn't matter, I don't care.
If you're a real estateprofessional, still treat it as
a business and if you havelosses, you're going to carry

(33:15):
them forward.
You're going to use themsomeday when you sell that
property.
Some people are like well, I'mnot a real estate professional,
I can't write everything off.
No, you can write it off, it'sjust going to be delayed
gratification.
So don't worry about being areal estate professional.
I own rental property and I'mnot a real estate professional,
doesn't mean I don't write offanything and everything I can
related to that.
Okay, then they say weunderstand, we can do a board

(33:39):
meeting and we want to write offour trip.
Then she said we'll come backto that.
Then she says the steps.
What are the steps to this?
Oh my gosh.
So bless your heart.
She says I assume that we needto establish an LLC and put the
deed to the property and themortgage in the name of the LLC.
Okay, we've got a lot morepodcasts to listen to ours, but

(34:00):
first of all, you need an LLC.
Anyway, girl, you've got tohave an LLC for this rental
property.
Heaven forbid.
There's a problem with thesetwo tenants in this duplex and
they sue you personally, oh mygosh.
And your kids are working onthe property on occasion with
you.
Even more risk.
Get this thing in a freaking LLC.
It has nothing to do with thewrite-off of a family board or

(34:21):
any other write-off.
You need an LLC anyway.
And, yes, you'll transfer thedeed.
And no, you're not going toworry about the mortgage.
Everyone out there, do notworry about the mortgage company
.
When you transfer a rental toan LLC.
There's no due on sale clause.
They do not care.
They've already sold yourmortgage.
Just do it.
Get that property into an LLC.
In 25 years we've had twoclients that had a problem with
the bank when they transferredtheir property into an LLC.

(34:41):
In 25 years, we've had twoclients that had a problem with
the bank where they transferredtheir property into an LLC, and
it's because they went into thebank and asked if they could do
it and then the bank had, youknow, def CON 3 trying to figure
out if they didn't even knowwhat you were talking about.
Just do it.
It's not a big deal.
You need the asset protection.
The kids, finally, would neverbe members of your LLC.
Parents, never put your kids asowners of the LLC.

(35:02):
They're going to be on theboard of advisors.
It's going to be in theoperating agreement.
When you set up an LLC at ouroffice, our team will walk you
through it.
There's so much to say here.
I'm talking fast.
I'm sorry, but okay.
So get an LLC.
Don't make your kids members.
Get a board of advisors set up.
Now, talking about your tripOkay, a board trip is going to

(35:25):
be a one-day experience.
I don't see national parktravel as a one-day experience.
These are young children, fromwhat I can surmise, I would
probably stay away from theboard deduction at this level.
I don't have all the facts, butsomething smells a little odd.
And if the kids get older andthey're teenagers and you want

(35:45):
to take, you got a second rentalproperty and they're engaged in
the conversation and they'reold enough to handle it you have
a weekend away.
You have a real structuredboard meeting.
They're going to be on payroll,which is one of the
qualifications.
They already are on payroll.
They're under age 18, whichdoesn't mean they need a W-2
either.
Under circular 230, they'reunder age 18, which doesn't mean
they need a W-2 either.
Under circular 230, they'restill employees, so it qualifies

(36:07):
that they're employees.
It qualifies for a trip.
But really is it a boardmeeting when you're sitting
around the campfire with twoeight-year-olds?
I don't think so.
So be careful I don't know allyour facts but get an LLC set up
and then talk to one of ourattorneys when you're setting up
the LLC about some of thesequestions that I brought up and
you will love it.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
Mouthful sorry.
Yeah, you went fast and furiouson that one.

Speaker 3 (36:27):
I wanted to get through that I know I got one
too.

Speaker 2 (36:29):
It's got a lot.
I want to say Okay.

Speaker 3 (36:30):
You go fast, talk fast, I'll follow you, all right
.

Speaker 2 (36:32):
Okay, this one's from Ed in Illinois and it's a cash
purchase.
Now, by the way, this is abouta self-directed IRA LLC, but
this could be anybody's LLCbuying a rental property.
Really, the question Ed'sgetting at here.
He said we'd like to take titlein the land trust for added

(36:55):
anonymity and protections.
Can you advise how to do thiswithout causing problems?
From our limited understanding,once in the trust, the home
becomes the personal property ofthe beneficiary, the LLC, and
only a separate named personentity is recorded as the
trustee.
Anonymity is created becauseher LLC won't be recorded
anywhere except in the non-filedtrust documents.

(37:16):
We plan to use a Wyoming LLCcreated by our revocable living
trust as the trustee for theland trust.
Is this a disqualified entity?
How do we work around it?
Wow, well, I need a drink.
I know you can see why I pickedthis one, all right, okay, ed,
let me just say this we are nota fan of land trusts.

(37:39):
Okay, a land trust is a bignothing burger.

Speaker 3 (37:46):
There is no protection, maybe an amenity.
It's something I'm cracking,but you're gonna you're gonna
get that land trust.

Speaker 2 (37:50):
you're gonna be like where's the beef?
Okay, yeah.
Where's the burger?
Where's the asset protection?
You've been listening tosomeone crazy.
Other people we know like to useland trusts.
We don't.
I would never use it for myself, okay, okay, as a lawyer doing
this.
If we could sell it to you, wewould Trust me.
I'd love to sell you these landtrusts and add on more costs
and everything.

(38:10):
It's just a big nothing burger.
Okay, all right.
Now here's what I would do, ed,if you're, because, let me say
this A land trust gives zeroasset protection.
Stop thinking there's assetprotections or other protections
.
There is anonymity.
There's anonymity, but there'sa huge flaw to it.

(38:31):
The anonymity is we're going toput the trust on the deed to
the property.
That way, it's not the LLC, sono one will look up who owns the
LLC with the state.
Some states disclose who's themanager or owner.
I'm going to come back to thatbecause I got a better
workaround for you, ed.
But the issue here is well, thetrust has no asset protection,
but maybe there's anonymity.
Here's the flaw.
You have to list someone as thetrustee of the trust on the

(38:52):
deed.
Are you going to be the trusteeof the trust In your example.
Here you were like well, we'regoing to use a Wyoming LLC owned
by a revocable living trust asthe trustee for the land trust.
Ed, let me just shorten, makethis easier for you.
Do the Illinois LLC that'sgoing to own the Illinois
property and use a Wyoming LLCthat you also own, or that's the

(39:15):
manager of the Illinois LLC,and then no one knows who owns
it?
Someone's looked up thatIllinois LLC that's on title to
the property.
They're going to see a WyomingLLC as the manager.
They're going to go look atWyoming to see who owns that LLC
.
And if you set it up properlywhich you can do in our firm KQS
Lawyers we're not going to listyou at Wyoming because you
don't have to.
That way you get the anonymity,you have the asset protection

(39:37):
from the LLC.
You save yourself the cost andheadache and the stupid madness
of a land trust.
Yeah, which are?

Speaker 3 (39:43):
sold all over Illinois and Florida.
By the way, I got a better one.

Speaker 2 (39:45):
Illinois is a state that actually does have a land
trust statute, but it's stillthe L.
It's like a belt and suspenders.
You don't need it.
Okay, the LLC?
Every state LLC has the wholepurpose of it is limited
liability company.
Something happens on theproperty, they're stuck at the
LLC.
They can't sue you anyways.
Adding a trust in the mixdoesn't give you anything more
than you already have.

Speaker 3 (40:06):
And here's another option and we just were talking
about this the other day atdinner, lunch, breakfast,
whatever is set up, the WyomingLLC, register it foreign in
Illinois and make it the membermanager.
So get rid of the wholeIllinois LLC and just use the
Wyoming as the owner and themanager for some additional.

Speaker 2 (40:27):
Sometimes on that foreign registration, Illinois
might say you know who's themanager, so you might make the
Wyoming the manager too.
Yeah, that's why I like justdoing the Illinois LLC and have
your separate Wyoming entity bethe manager.
Oh, I'm not opposed to that,yeah if you.

Speaker 3 (40:41):
Okay, sorry for anybody out there, they already
have an illinois llc.
Yeah, so this is the workaround.
Yeah, if you didn't have anyllc at all, yeah, you could
maybe pull it off with one llcwith a foreign registration
possibly, yeah, possibly, Idon't know.

Speaker 2 (40:55):
Illinois, where on the foreign registration you
need to be listed as manager ornot, like a, so which of the
case?
Then you'd need the wyoming llcfor privacy.
Just the wyoming llc is themanager also good.

Speaker 3 (41:06):
So meet with one of our lawyers and get it done
right and avoid the land.
Trust, damn it.

Speaker 2 (41:10):
I agree, don't save your money and the headache.
And I'll just say this a lot of.
There's only a few states thatactually have a land trust
statute.
Illinois happens to be one ofthem, as does florida, but I've
unwound many of them.
In arizona, where I've had aclient that owns property in a
land trust and the title companywon't close it.
The title company is like wewill not issue a title policy on
this.
What the hell is this?
It's a land trust.

(41:31):
They're like yeah, what is that?
Well, they have them inIllinois and Florida.
That's not where you are.
And they're like well, so whatis it?
Well, it's just a regular trust.
Then a revocable living trust?
No, it's not.
It doesn't follow theconventions of it.
You can't list a company as abeneficiary on a revocable
living trust.
It just there's all these flawsin it.

(41:53):
I've had to unwind them, hadclients pay tens of thousands of
dollars because they couldn'teven sell the damn property out
of a land trust.
So just be wary of them.
It's kind of an oversoldstrategy.
We just love the LLC.
Every state's got it.
There's other ways you can getprivacy.
We like the Wyoming LLC couldbe the management entity to help
get your privacy.
Love it.

Speaker 3 (42:12):
Okay, great comments.
Okay, man, we have so many goodquestions I think we can only
take a couple more, but I may doone more.
Okay, this is morakimo67.
Says I am new to this, justcreated an LLC and filed for S
Corp.
So I think what she is sayingis that she made an S election

(42:32):
on her new LLC, would like tohave a consultation on how to
structure my business or what topay attention to, so it could
be beneficial at the end of theyear for taxation.
It's a small business for now.
I understand if this is blessher heart.
Now I understand if this issomething you would not be
interested in helping me with,since you probably only take
care of big shots.

(42:52):
I watched your video and foundit interesting.
I am willing to pay a fee,since nothing is for free.
Thank you, let me know if youcan give some advice to someone
new and, let's say, has not alot of knowledge about this,
joanna.
And thank you, joanna, forbeing courageous and sometimes

(43:14):
throwing yourself out there andasking these questions that
seemingly are embarrassing orhard and you don't know what you
don't know, and I am sograteful for this message.
And now I am not even takingcare of big shots, let alone
little shots or middle shots.
I am trying to take care of ourteam.
We have such a big team andMatt and I do more

(43:36):
administration with our groupand marketing and education and
teaching and training internallyand externally.
We found that we can createmore of us doing that rather
than doing one-on-oneconsultation.
So we would love to work withyou.
But even big shots we're likewe're a great first date, you
can meet with us and then we'rebusy.
So we'd rather you work withour team members who are going

(43:58):
to be there to respond the nextday and the day after and the
day after, and they all aretrained by Matt and I every day,
every day of the week.
So any of you listening pleaseknow that our team of in the tax
law arena with our law firm, or, if you need a tax pro in our
Main Street Tax Pro Program, oreven doing your directed IRA at

(44:19):
the trust company, we've gotteam members that are really
better than us in the day-to-dayget it done, get it out the
door effort.
So thank you for thatcompliment that you'd like to
work with us.
Now, on this note, any of youout there setting up a new
entity and making an S election.
You've got to get up to speedon this.
So, joanna, I love it.

(44:40):
We've got podcasts on the SCorp over and over again.
We have over 600 podcasts now,I think, millions of downloads.
Matt's got some great YouTubevideos on this.
I have great YouTube videos onthis, a chapter in my book, the
Tax and Legal Playbook.
Tons of free content and Iwould challenge you to take the
next couple of weeks and justconsume.

(45:00):
Consume anything you can findthat Matt and I have said about
S-corporations.
And for any of you out therenew in this S-corp arena, some
of you may need an S-corp.
If you're in an LLC makingmoney, you should study this too
.
Then make that appointment.
Have an appointment with one ofthe tax lawyers to build your
trifecta, review your lastyear's return with one of the
taxpayers to build your trifecta, review your last year's return
and make a plan.
And if we don't save you fivetimes what you pay us to have

(45:26):
that console, I'd be shocked.
Their goal is to identifysavings for you.
Create a plan.
Talk about the relationshipthat we're not going anywhere
and we want to be here everyyear to tune it up.
We're like the orthodontisttightening the braces.
We'll get you with the tax prothat can be there as doing the
regular work on the complianceand giving you ongoing tax

(45:47):
support, and we're there for theheavy lifting.
So please make an appointment.
You don't have to work with meor Matt and any of you out there
in this new S-Corp arena.
There's plenty of free contentout on there.
You do need to get your payrolldialed in and know the process,
but this is more of a practiceanswer, but I think it's helpful
.

Speaker 2 (46:05):
Yeah, that was great.
Well, I mean, this isinteresting.
We're kind of finished.
We started with some trickyones and we're finishing with
some kind of new people herewith some kind of entry-level
questions.
I got the same one here.
This one's from Karen.
She asked I have an established10 year old real estate LLC
that I don't use anymore.

(46:25):
Can I convert that LLC,established to do real estate
fix and flips, to a smallbusiness that does a different
service?
I sew quilts and would like torun the sales through a business
to be legitimate.
All right, Great question,Karen.
Yes, we can look at that sameLLC.
I presume there's no other realestate or anything in it.
You say you don't use itanymore, that same LLC.
If you've still kept it activewith your state and it's still
in good standing, we can usethat same LLC.

(46:46):
I don't know what the name isand if you want to change the
name, you could even amend thename to that same LLC to be more
around the quilts that you sew.
Keep it generic.
Yeah, keep it generic.
You could be Karen Enterprises,whatever.
So, absolutely so we can lookat just using that existing LLC,
maybe make some amendments.
We do something called a cleanup.

(47:06):
A lot of clients have LLCslaying around.
They're like all right, Ihaven't used it, or I set it up
online and did it myself and Iknow I jacked it up.
Can you guys fix it.
For me that's called a cleanupin our law firm, KKO Slyers.
We'd love to help you with that.
We can clean it up.
Use that existing LLC Now.
Sometimes we'll look at thatand say, ooh, Karen, this is in
California.
You haven't paid the franchisetax on that LLC for five years.

(47:27):
You owe $7,000 with fees andpenalties.
Let's not use that LLC, let'sjust start a new one.
Walk away.

Speaker 3 (47:35):
And walk away.

Speaker 2 (47:39):
Let that LLC and those fees die over there, let's
just start fresh.
It might be another state,that's 500 bucks and old fees
you haven't been paying to thestate, I don't know.
So we want to probably lookthat up quick to make a
determination there, and youmight know that already.
So that's the onlyconsideration, because sometimes
we'll just say, karen, let'sjust start over, let's just
dissolve that out and start anew, fresh LLC, depending on how
much work we got to do.
But if otherwise it's in goodstanding and you're just like

(48:02):
let's just amend the name, don't, don't worry about it, even if
you put on the purpose of theLLC.
You know the purpose of the LLCwith the state was to do real
estate.
When we set up LLCs we usuallysay the purpose is to do X,
which it might be real estate,maybe it's a construction
business, you're consultingwhatever.
And then we say and any otherlawful service, so that this

(48:23):
catch-all to say I'm doing this,but this LLC can also do
whatever the hell I want.
And so we want to look at thepurpose too.
We might amend that if you'rechanging the name too.
So just a few considerationsthere.
But possible to just work withthat same LLC, karen.

Speaker 3 (48:36):
And I want to say a final word about Karen too.
Work with that same LLC, karen.
And I want to say a final wordabout Karen too, and maybe open
up your vision, all of you outthere, if you haven't caught
this concept yet.
Karen says she's going to doquilt.
Okay, some of you might go, oh,she's not going to get rich
doing that, or that's okay,that's great.

(48:58):
She's going to sell one quilt amonth and make $1,000 a month,
if the best, or what.
I don't know how much herquilts go for, but let's just
think of the big picture here.
She takes that LLC, she reframesit, cleans it up, and it's not
just about making quilts.
It could be about sellingmaterial to make quilts.
It could be selling educationonline at night of how to make

(49:22):
quilts.
It could be an affiliatemarketer for other quilt
companies.
She could be giving speechesabout quilt making.
She could be doing trainingsabout quilt making live.
She could be holding classeslive on YouTube on making quilts
and everything related.
This is how people make money.
They take their passion, theirproduct, their idea and find

(49:45):
multiple streams of income thatthey could work with.
She's going to partner withother quilt makers.
She's going to create anassociation.
She's going to teach, train, do, do, do, do, do, do.
And it gets just so so exciting.
This new world, this digitalworld, opens up the door for
Karen to really she can have asix figure business by the end
of the year.
Just doing quotes, she.

(50:05):
So I just compliment you, karen, for pursuing your dream.
Think big, never think small,and if you only get halfway
there, that's okay.
Yeah, yeah, good advice there.

Speaker 2 (50:14):
Well, thanks everyone for all your questions.
And if you're sitting therethinking guys, why don't you
talk about there?
Well, thanks everyone for allyour questions.
And if you're sitting therethinking guys, why don't you
talk about X?
Well, you didn't ask that's why, so get over to
mainstreetbusinesspodcastcom.
Submit your question there.
We love hearing what you guyswant to hear about, and that's
what the Open Forum show isdedicated to.
This is your questions.
Mark and I want to give you asmuch information we can.

(50:35):
Sometimes we think we know thetopics that are relevant and
sometimes we don't.
That's why we did open forum.
It's one of our most listenedto shows.
So thanks everybody for tuningin today.
We'll see you next time.
Until then, keep living theAmerican dream.
We'll see you then.