January 6, 2026 • 22 mins
Impostor syndrome doesn’t come from nowhere — and it’s rarely about what just happened.
In this episode, Joe breaks down why your strongest self-doubt reactions often have very little to do with the moment you’re in — and everything to do with patterns formed long before your career even started.
You’ll learn how to recognize when fear is being triggered by the past, how to interrupt the panic spiral in real time, and why the goal isn’t to eliminate impostor syndrome — but to manage it. To remove its hands from the wheel and put yourself back in the driver's seat.
If you’ve ever wondered, “Why am I reacting this way?” ...this episode is for you.
If this episode resonated, consider subscribing to Making UX Work.
Each episode explores the human side of UX and product careers — confidence, power, impostor syndrome, boundaries and the challenges that never show up in books or conference talks.
No hype. No platitudes. Just honest perspective, earned the hard way.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:09):
UX is tough, not because of the work itself, but
because of everything around it.
The pressure, the politics, theself-doubt.
Joe Natoli has been through itall, and for more than 30 years,
he's been helping UXers anddesigners find their way through
the challenges that really makeor break a career.
(00:30):
Not the wireframes or designtools, but imposter syndrome,
office politics, bad bosses, andlearning to stand your ground.
This is Making UX Work, where hetackles the battles no bootcamp,
book, or conference everprepares you for, and shows you
how to come out stronger on theother side.
SPEAKER_02 (00:54):
Well, hello there, and welcome back to Making UX
Work.
It's been a minute, so I want totell you a few things before we
get cracking here.
First and foremost, this is notthe interview show that it once
was.
If you're looking forinterviews, you can check out
episodes one to 19.
Uh, but if you want to explorethe more personal and possibly
(01:17):
more difficult side of thiscareer, stick around because
that is what we're doing here.
This is just me now, talkinghonestly about the stuff that
rarely makes it intoconversations around UX and
product design, okay?
Rarely makes it into podcasts orbooks or courses or conference
talks or social media posts forthat matter.
(01:38):
Things like, you know, dealingwith confidence issues, imposter
syndrome, setting betterboundaries, navigating corporate
politics, surviving badmanagers, uh, transcending
difficult people, you know,turning combat into
collaboration, growing into theUX or designer or person, quite
frankly, that you want to be.
unknown (02:00):
Right?
SPEAKER_02 (02:00):
This is about learning to accept what is and
ending each day feeling proud ofyourself, feeling proud of what
you've accomplished, and quitefrankly, feeling proud of the
things that you've been able todeal with and manage and
overcome.
I guess, you know, what I wantmore than anything else, I
think, is for you to feel lessalone, to know that things are
(02:22):
tough everywhere.
All right, and that we are allmost definitely in this
together.
So if you've ever wondered ifit's just you, it's not.
Believe me.
Above all else, I hope to showyou that nothing you face cannot
be overcome.
All right.
The challenges you face everyday are not a value judgment of
(02:46):
your ability or your worth.
I hope to show you that you havemore power than you realize and
that it is high time to startreclaiming and using that power.
Okay, with that out of the way,let's do this thing.
One thing I absolutely know tobe true is that people who have
imposter syndrome the most, thepeople who have that internal
(03:10):
dialogue that makes them feelreally unsure of themselves, are
typically people who are wildlybeyond competent at what they
do.
You know, their mediocrity iseveryone else's standard of
excellence.
And part of what makes themexcellent is that relentless
lens that they use to look ateverything, right?
To say, do I think this is goodenough?
(03:32):
There's a streak ofperfectionism that runs through
anybody who is truly good atanything.
All right.
And I think that's quite franklywhat makes us good at our job.
Folks like us in the design andUX industry have this in spades.
Think for a minute about thelevel of detail of what you do.
All right.
Think about the level of rigorthat's necessary, the ability to
(03:55):
apply yourself to that effort ina really intense way.
That brutal self-examinationthat we have, the insistence on
a really high level ofexcellence that we impose upon
ourselves is part and parcel ofthe job.
Okay, it comes with theterritory.
But no matter what your chosenprofession happens to be, the
(04:15):
thing I want to say to you upfront is this you don't ever get
rid of imposter syndrome.
What you do is you manage it,you put it in its place, you
develop mechanisms to deal withit when it comes up.
And the biggest mistake, okay,the thing that will tie you in
knots for a hell of a lot longerthan is really necessary, is
(04:37):
this idea that you somehow haveto be totally and completely
free of it.
That you need to reach thispoint in your life where you'll
simply never ever react this wayagain as long as you live.
Here's the thing, folks.
That's a lie.
I really believe that to be alie.
I don't think it's realistic.
I don't think it's healthy, andI think it sets you up for this
(05:01):
very unrealistic place that younow have to reach.
And then when you don't reachit, you feel five times as bad
about yourself because, well,you know, I couldn't get my shit
together.
Okay, so fuck that.
It doesn't go away.
It's not gonna go away.
Stop expecting it to go away.
Free yourself of thatunattainable goal.
(05:21):
Instead, focus your energy onaccepting it, managing it,
countering it, lessening it,dealing with it.
Over these next couple episodes,my hope is to get you to a place
where, although that voice stillpipes up in your head, it
doesn't have any power over youanymore.
It doesn't have the force or theimpact or the influence that it
(05:43):
has right now.
It becomes a hell of a loteasier to tune it out.
And it behaves better when youcatch it doing its thing.
Now, the reality of thesituation here is that you're
driving down the road, stuckwith this annoying passenger in
your car that you're forced toride with.
(06:04):
But at some point, you have tostart imposing rules.
Okay.
The imposter is allowed to sitthere in the car with you, but
it has to sit the fuck down inthe passenger seat and take its
hands off the wheel.
At no point is it allowed todrive this car.
You understand me?
That's what I've done formyself.
It's what I've taught otherpeople to do, and that is what
(06:25):
I'm going to talk about here.
But the first part of dealingwith the imposter inside you is
identifying where that cripplingfear and that doubt comes from
in the first place, what itsorigins are, getting clear on
what areas of your life it hasthe most influence and control
over.
Okay.
(06:45):
Is this specifically aboutprofessional capability?
Or is it something else thatcolors everything in your life?
Let me put that another way.
When you find yourself in asituation where that voice pipes
up, right, and you start feelingthat growing tightness in your
chest, or whatever physicalsymptoms are your particular
flavor of imposter syndrome, thefirst question you have to ask
(07:09):
is this is this old shit or newshit?
In other words, is this aboutright now, or is it about
something that came before?
Are you truly reacting to thething that just happened?
Or did that event triggersomething that occurred in the
past?
Some belief that you're carryingthat's rooted in something that
(07:31):
did happen in the past, someonewho second-guessed every move
you made, or made you feel likeyou weren't good enough, or that
you were never going to be goodenough.
Something you're afraid mighthappen in the future.
Asking that question and workingto answer it can help you
recognize the differencebetween, you know, a reasonable,
justified reaction that's inproportion with what just
(07:53):
happened or what is happening,and the kind of panicked,
reflexive, instant reactionwe're all prone to when we're
triggered.
I'm going to give you anexample.
For a really long time, okay, Iwas the type of person who, if
somebody I was working with inan office sent me a text or an
email that said, Can you come tomy office?
or a voicemail where the personsays nothing other than, can you
(08:15):
call me?
That would trigger instantfucking panic for me, okay?
Catastrophizing to the nthdegree.
The voices in my head wouldliterally start shouting, oh
shit, what is this?
It must be really bad.
Something horrible is going tohappen.
And the one screaming theloudest here was the voice that
said, I'm in trouble.
And I start digging through mymental files for every thought,
(08:38):
every word, every deed that I'ddone in the last 24 hours,
right?
Quickly trying to figure outwhat I did to upset this person
or what I did wrong.
And that, you see, wasessentially my upbringing.
Okay.
That's where that's coming from.
Whenever I was called into theroom with no detail, a lot of
times there is an explosionwaiting for me in that room.
(08:59):
So the response that getsconditioned is one of panic,
okay, of anticipating pain.
Your body learns really quickbecause your brain and your
entire limbic system is designedto protect you from danger.
So a few reps is all it takes.
Okay, this means danger, filedit away, got it, appropriate
response recorded.
(09:19):
So I reacted and reacted andreacted like that with no
control over it for years.
And I did not learn to drawproper boundaries until I was in
my late 30s, to be honest withyou.
So the first part of combatingthe imposter's initial
overreaction is learning toresist that initial urge.
(09:40):
Okay.
Learning to resist thatdefinition of what this event
means.
And I mean any event, okay,especially something said or
requested that doesn't have alot of detail attached to it,
like the example I gave you.
Could be something at work, youknow, somebody reacts to
something you offer up and givesyou a four-word reaction.
(10:00):
Hmm, not sure about that.
Could also be a heated moment ina tense conversation with
someone at work, with yoursignificant other, or with a
family member.
Because let's face it, no onepushes your buttons as
effectively or as often asfamily.
And in that very moment, thereis a panicked urge to surrender
to the voice that's instantly inyour ear.
(10:22):
This person has no faith in me.
Shit, I don't know what I'mdoing, man.
I must have really fucked thisup.
Damn, I knew I should have doneit the other way.
And you're running through thelist in your head immediately,
right?
So there are three things thatyou absolutely need to do here
in these instances.
The first two involve changingyour reaction, and the third
involves taking action.
SPEAKER_00 (10:57):
After 35 years working with teams inside global
enterprises, he created theUX365 Academy to show you what's
really standing in your way andhow to move past it.
Textbooks teach theory, Joeteaches reality.
This is practical, real-worldUX, taught by someone who's
lived it.
(11:18):
Learn more at UX365academy.com.
For the way it actually is, notthe way it's supposed to be.
SPEAKER_02 (11:29):
The first thing is this always, immediately before
you let your mind go anywhere,before you open your mouth to
say whatever defense your brainhas already cooked up, wait.
Pause.
And when you do, breathe.
Here's why that's important.
Your body's doing what it's beentrained to do, with or without
(11:51):
your permission, which is prettymuch to go into panic mode.
So the first thing that has tohappen is you gotta interrupt
that process.
Okay.
You're throwing a stick in thespinning wheel that the hamster
in your brain is already on.
And you do that with two singlewords to yourself.
This is something I do.
I say to myself, wait, breathe.
(12:12):
Wait, breathe.
If you're alone and you're inpanic mode, you say it out loud,
literally, more than once, ifnecessary, as many times as
necessary, as a matter of fact.
And then you do it.
Breathe in for four seconds, andthen breathe out for four
seconds.
Stretch out each thing to covera four second span.
(12:33):
Alright, and I know this isgoofy, but let's try it
together.
Okay?
Breathe in.
Breathe out.
Feel free to pause this and dothat three or four more times.
(12:53):
Again, let that breath in happenfor four seconds, let that
breath out happen for fourseconds.
This matters more than I canexplain to you.
The physiology of simply doingthat goes a long way in calming
your body.
And if you calm your body, youcan also start to calm your
mind.
One thing absolutely affects theother.
Doesn't have to be conscious,you don't have to talk yourself
(13:15):
into anything or out ofanything.
Just breathe and wait.
And then, once you're calmer,you do the third thing, which is
learning to physically counterthat reaction.
Now I'm going to try and explainthis by way of example.
My dog, Rosie, who happens to besleeping next to me right now,
(13:36):
should be doing something that Ican tell just by her behavior,
okay, she knows she's notsupposed to be doing, right?
She's up on a couch orsomething.
If I look at her and she catchesmy eye, or if I say, yo, she
stops dead in her tracks anddoes this thing like hi, hi, hi,
hi, papa.
SPEAKER_01 (13:53):
I wasn't, I wasn't really doing anything.
I'm just sitting here with mebeing good, see.
SPEAKER_02 (13:57):
What a therapist once told me is this.
He said, you have to get in thehabit of catching your brain in
the act of doing this bullshit.
The way he explained it wasthere's a physiological reaction
that happens, okay?
That that knee-jerk negativity,that self-talk, that's
unconscious processing.
It's triggered immediately.
Like I said, your body's alreadybeen trained to react without
(14:19):
your consent.
But here's the thing (14:20):
it literally stops if you notice it
doing that thing.
It stops when you catch it inthe act of being an asshole,
basically.
Once you become conscious of it,it's kind of like your brain
goes, what, who me?
I I wasn't doing anything.
See, I'm just sitting here beinggood, thinking nothing.
La la la la la.
(14:40):
It literally is that kind ofthing, okay?
Buddhists call this mindfulness,coming back to the present
moment, being right here, rightnow, instead of in that panic
place in your head.
And there are a number of waysto trigger that.
All right, you may have heardthat some people count.
They count to three in theirheads.
That stops the processing, orthey adopt a mantra, something
(15:01):
they say to themselves, which iswhat I do.
All right, in my case, I adopteda mantra that I read in possibly
the most terrible self-help bookI've ever read in my life.
Okay, book was garbage.
But the mantra was fantastic.
And the mantra was this mythoughts do not have to become
my emotions.
(15:21):
So what I do is the minute Ifeel that tension rise in my
chest, because that's how itshows up for me, right?
In my chest, I feel it like avice.
I first take a moment tobreathe, right?
Wait, breathe.
And then I start repeating thisphrase in my head.
And if I'm by myself, Iliterally repeat it out loud
(15:42):
over and over.
My thoughts do not have tobecome my emotions.
My thoughts do not have tobecome my emotions.
My thoughts do not have tobecome my emotions.
I do that for a solid minute,okay, or until I feel the
pressure release.
And it always does release.
All right.
So, tip of the hat to that guywho wrote a really crappy book
(16:02):
but managed to work one amazinggem into it.
All right.
And you can just talk toyourself as well.
Say to yourself, all right,look, you're doing the thing
again.
Calm down for a second.
Let's find out what's going onhere.
That's self-talk.
And the older you are, I reallybelieve the more you need to
practice this.
The more years you have of thatreflexive, ingrained, habitual
(16:24):
knee-jerk behavior, the harderit is to prevent it from
happening.
All right, you've become reallygood at it at this point.
So you have to develop acounter, you know, a challenge
like this to catch your brain inthe act and force it to stop
spinning that wheel.
It's the equivalent of youmentally body checking yourself
to say, yo, cut that negativeshit out and come back here.
(16:46):
Because that negative shit hasbecome second nature for you by
now.
Okay, you're there before youeven know you're there.
Tell me I'm wrong.
These two things, okay,breathing and countering your
reaction, are both the mostsimple and the most effective
responses in the world.
Why?
Because the very act of doingthem reminds your body that you
(17:07):
are in control.
You are driving this car.
You are dictating what happensnext.
You are saying to the imposteror to the devil on your
shoulder, or whatever the hellyou want to call it, you're
saying, listen, you can saywhatever the fuck you want, but
you're going to do what I tellyou to do.
Naming that action out loud orin your head or doing it
(17:29):
consciously like this buys youthe headspace you need to do the
very next thing, which isreplace fear with truth by
asking for clarification, askingfor more detail.
Because in the absence ofadditional information, it's
going to be hard not to react.
It's going to be hard not toinstantly dive into that
(17:50):
self-doubt.
So once you've taken thosebreaths, once you feel like
you're back in your body again,before your brain can try and
talk you out of it, you ask forclarification.
Can you give me some additionaldetail here?
Tell me why you're thinking thator tell me what's this about.
If there is silence from thatperson and you feel the panic
coming, ask them.
Tell me what you're feelingright now.
(18:12):
Tell me what you're thinkingright now.
Whatever it is, whatever theanswers that you really need in
that moment happen to be, pullit out in the open so that you
know what this is, so thatyou're not making guesses about
what it is or what it means.
Because in milliseconds, yourmind, just like my mind, will
want to make up all sorts ofunkind explanations for what
(18:33):
this is and what it means.
Even though I'm in a muchdifferent place with my life,
uh, with this at this point,that temptation is always there.
Okay.
That knee-jerk reaction isalways there.
That voice always pipes up in myhead, always every time it
essentially says, You must be introuble here.
They're quiet because you're introuble.
They didn't bother to explainwhat was going on because you're
in trouble, you know, whateverit is.
(18:54):
And with regard to the askingfor clarification part, I think
a lot of us are afraid to askclarifying questions because we
were brought up in a way whereit wasn't okay to ask questions.
It wasn't safe to ask questions.
And quite honestly, that hasnothing to do with necessarily
having, you know, horribleparents or a horrible upbringing
or whatever.
It has a lot to do withgenerational stuff.
(19:17):
You know, my parents' generationand certainly the generation
before, you didn't ask anything,okay?
You you didn't speak untilspoken to.
There was a there was a sort ofunspoken understanding that kids
did what they were told.
You accepted what was, right?
You didn't ask questions.
That was not a thing.
So, by way of example, I mean, Iwas a weird, sensitive artist
(19:41):
kid.
You know, I was a young boy withsensitive feelings in a world of
alpha males and athletes.
I didn't really fit in in anyway, any shape or form.
And there is this expectedpoliteness among my parents'
generation where you just don'tchallenge things.
Okay.
You don't challenge authorityfigures, you don't ask
questions, even if they're Damngood questions, which is 180
(20:03):
degrees from how a lot of peoplein my generation, and certainly
my wife and I have raised ourkids, which is, you know, just
because that person is in aposition of authority does not
automatically make them right.
So if you're doubting something,you have a right to spit it out
onto the table and say, look, Idon't think I like what's
happening here.
But we weren't taught that.
We were taught that you don'thave a right to question
(20:24):
anything, which translates intoyou don't deserve an answer.
You're not worthy of an answer.
These are the messages that getinternalized and accepted.
And the only way to combat this,at least at the start, is to
physically find ways to sort ofbody check that impulse when it
happens, like I said, becauseit's gonna happen.
No matter how long you go totherapy, no matter how long you
(20:46):
listen to me talk about this,it's still gonna happen.
It still happens to me.
All right, instantly.
The only difference between meat 56 years of age and me at
eight years of age is that Idon't let it go anywhere past
that first step.
I got lots of mechanisms, I'vegot lots of ways that I counter
it.
I simply don't let it happen.
(21:08):
Wait, breathe, come back tocenter, be patient, let it pass.
Now, here's what I need you tounderstand and internalize.
This is not a magic bullet foryour fears.
It's practice.
It is something you consciouslystart doing in order to
eventually turn it into areflexive habit.
(21:30):
A habit of trying to be morepresent, trying to be more
conscious in that moment,steering the boat instead of
being swept along by thecurrent.
Like I said before, and I reallyhave to stress this because it's
the number one thing that keepspeople from overcoming this
shit.
You don't get rid of this, youmanage it.
(21:51):
There is no someday I will befree of this.
That's an outright lie.
No matter what any bullshit bookor self-help program claims, you
will not magically be free ofit.
And that is okay.
Because what you absolutelypositively will be in time if
you practice consistently is youwill be able to control it the
(22:14):
instant it happens.
You will be able to put it inits place.
And in the next episode, I'mgoing to tell you exactly how to
do that.
SPEAKER_00 (22:32):
You've been listening to Making UX Work with
Joe Natoli.
Honest talk about the hiddenchallenges that shape a design
career.
See you next time.
And until then, onward andupward.
UX is tough, not because of the work itself, but
because of everything around it.
The pressure, the politics, theself-doubt.
Joe Natoli has been through itall, and for more than 30 years,
he's been helping UXers anddesigners find their way through
the challenges that really makeor break a career.
(00:30):
Not the wireframes or designtools, but imposter syndrome,
office politics, bad bosses, andlearning to stand your ground.
This is Making UX Work, where hetackles the battles no bootcamp,
book, or conference everprepares you for, and shows you
how to come out stronger on theother side.
SPEAKER_02 (00:54):
Well, hello there, and welcome back to Making UX
Work.
It's been a minute, so I want totell you a few things before we
get cracking here.
First and foremost, this is notthe interview show that it once
was.
If you're looking forinterviews, you can check out
episodes one to 19.
Uh, but if you want to explorethe more personal and possibly
(01:17):
more difficult side of thiscareer, stick around because
that is what we're doing here.
This is just me now, talkinghonestly about the stuff that
rarely makes it intoconversations around UX and
product design, okay?
Rarely makes it into podcasts orbooks or courses or conference
talks or social media posts forthat matter.
(01:38):
Things like, you know, dealingwith confidence issues, imposter
syndrome, setting betterboundaries, navigating corporate
politics, surviving badmanagers, uh, transcending
difficult people, you know,turning combat into
collaboration, growing into theUX or designer or person, quite
frankly, that you want to be.
unknown (02:00):
Right?
SPEAKER_02 (02:00):
This is about learning to accept what is and
ending each day feeling proud ofyourself, feeling proud of what
you've accomplished, and quitefrankly, feeling proud of the
things that you've been able todeal with and manage and
overcome.
I guess, you know, what I wantmore than anything else, I
think, is for you to feel lessalone, to know that things are
(02:22):
tough everywhere.
All right, and that we are allmost definitely in this
together.
So if you've ever wondered ifit's just you, it's not.
Believe me.
Above all else, I hope to showyou that nothing you face cannot
be overcome.
All right.
The challenges you face everyday are not a value judgment of
(02:46):
your ability or your worth.
I hope to show you that you havemore power than you realize and
that it is high time to startreclaiming and using that power.
Okay, with that out of the way,let's do this thing.
One thing I absolutely know tobe true is that people who have
imposter syndrome the most, thepeople who have that internal
(03:10):
dialogue that makes them feelreally unsure of themselves, are
typically people who are wildlybeyond competent at what they
do.
You know, their mediocrity iseveryone else's standard of
excellence.
And part of what makes themexcellent is that relentless
lens that they use to look ateverything, right?
To say, do I think this is goodenough?
(03:32):
There's a streak ofperfectionism that runs through
anybody who is truly good atanything.
All right.
And I think that's quite franklywhat makes us good at our job.
Folks like us in the design andUX industry have this in spades.
Think for a minute about thelevel of detail of what you do.
All right.
Think about the level of rigorthat's necessary, the ability to
(03:55):
apply yourself to that effort ina really intense way.
That brutal self-examinationthat we have, the insistence on
a really high level ofexcellence that we impose upon
ourselves is part and parcel ofthe job.
Okay, it comes with theterritory.
But no matter what your chosenprofession happens to be, the
(04:15):
thing I want to say to you upfront is this you don't ever get
rid of imposter syndrome.
What you do is you manage it,you put it in its place, you
develop mechanisms to deal withit when it comes up.
And the biggest mistake, okay,the thing that will tie you in
knots for a hell of a lot longerthan is really necessary, is
(04:37):
this idea that you somehow haveto be totally and completely
free of it.
That you need to reach thispoint in your life where you'll
simply never ever react this wayagain as long as you live.
Here's the thing, folks.
That's a lie.
I really believe that to be alie.
I don't think it's realistic.
I don't think it's healthy, andI think it sets you up for this
(05:01):
very unrealistic place that younow have to reach.
And then when you don't reachit, you feel five times as bad
about yourself because, well,you know, I couldn't get my shit
together.
Okay, so fuck that.
It doesn't go away.
It's not gonna go away.
Stop expecting it to go away.
Free yourself of thatunattainable goal.
(05:21):
Instead, focus your energy onaccepting it, managing it,
countering it, lessening it,dealing with it.
Over these next couple episodes,my hope is to get you to a place
where, although that voice stillpipes up in your head, it
doesn't have any power over youanymore.
It doesn't have the force or theimpact or the influence that it
(05:43):
has right now.
It becomes a hell of a loteasier to tune it out.
And it behaves better when youcatch it doing its thing.
Now, the reality of thesituation here is that you're
driving down the road, stuckwith this annoying passenger in
your car that you're forced toride with.
(06:04):
But at some point, you have tostart imposing rules.
Okay.
The imposter is allowed to sitthere in the car with you, but
it has to sit the fuck down inthe passenger seat and take its
hands off the wheel.
At no point is it allowed todrive this car.
You understand me?
That's what I've done formyself.
It's what I've taught otherpeople to do, and that is what
(06:25):
I'm going to talk about here.
But the first part of dealingwith the imposter inside you is
identifying where that cripplingfear and that doubt comes from
in the first place, what itsorigins are, getting clear on
what areas of your life it hasthe most influence and control
over.
Okay.
(06:45):
Is this specifically aboutprofessional capability?
Or is it something else thatcolors everything in your life?
Let me put that another way.
When you find yourself in asituation where that voice pipes
up, right, and you start feelingthat growing tightness in your
chest, or whatever physicalsymptoms are your particular
flavor of imposter syndrome, thefirst question you have to ask
(07:09):
is this is this old shit or newshit?
In other words, is this aboutright now, or is it about
something that came before?
Are you truly reacting to thething that just happened?
Or did that event triggersomething that occurred in the
past?
Some belief that you're carryingthat's rooted in something that
(07:31):
did happen in the past, someonewho second-guessed every move
you made, or made you feel likeyou weren't good enough, or that
you were never going to be goodenough.
Something you're afraid mighthappen in the future.
Asking that question and workingto answer it can help you
recognize the differencebetween, you know, a reasonable,
justified reaction that's inproportion with what just
(07:53):
happened or what is happening,and the kind of panicked,
reflexive, instant reactionwe're all prone to when we're
triggered.
I'm going to give you anexample.
For a really long time, okay, Iwas the type of person who, if
somebody I was working with inan office sent me a text or an
email that said, Can you come tomy office?
or a voicemail where the personsays nothing other than, can you
(08:15):
call me?
That would trigger instantfucking panic for me, okay?
Catastrophizing to the nthdegree.
The voices in my head wouldliterally start shouting, oh
shit, what is this?
It must be really bad.
Something horrible is going tohappen.
And the one screaming theloudest here was the voice that
said, I'm in trouble.
And I start digging through mymental files for every thought,
(08:38):
every word, every deed that I'ddone in the last 24 hours,
right?
Quickly trying to figure outwhat I did to upset this person
or what I did wrong.
And that, you see, wasessentially my upbringing.
Okay.
That's where that's coming from.
Whenever I was called into theroom with no detail, a lot of
times there is an explosionwaiting for me in that room.
(08:59):
So the response that getsconditioned is one of panic,
okay, of anticipating pain.
Your body learns really quickbecause your brain and your
entire limbic system is designedto protect you from danger.
So a few reps is all it takes.
Okay, this means danger, filedit away, got it, appropriate
response recorded.
(09:19):
So I reacted and reacted andreacted like that with no
control over it for years.
And I did not learn to drawproper boundaries until I was in
my late 30s, to be honest withyou.
So the first part of combatingthe imposter's initial
overreaction is learning toresist that initial urge.
(09:40):
Okay.
Learning to resist thatdefinition of what this event
means.
And I mean any event, okay,especially something said or
requested that doesn't have alot of detail attached to it,
like the example I gave you.
Could be something at work, youknow, somebody reacts to
something you offer up and givesyou a four-word reaction.
(10:00):
Hmm, not sure about that.
Could also be a heated moment ina tense conversation with
someone at work, with yoursignificant other, or with a
family member.
Because let's face it, no onepushes your buttons as
effectively or as often asfamily.
And in that very moment, thereis a panicked urge to surrender
to the voice that's instantly inyour ear.
(10:22):
This person has no faith in me.
Shit, I don't know what I'mdoing, man.
I must have really fucked thisup.
Damn, I knew I should have doneit the other way.
And you're running through thelist in your head immediately,
right?
So there are three things thatyou absolutely need to do here
in these instances.
The first two involve changingyour reaction, and the third
involves taking action.
SPEAKER_00 (10:57):
After 35 years working with teams inside global
enterprises, he created theUX365 Academy to show you what's
really standing in your way andhow to move past it.
Textbooks teach theory, Joeteaches reality.
This is practical, real-worldUX, taught by someone who's
lived it.
(11:18):
Learn more at UX365academy.com.
For the way it actually is, notthe way it's supposed to be.
SPEAKER_02 (11:29):
The first thing is this always, immediately before
you let your mind go anywhere,before you open your mouth to
say whatever defense your brainhas already cooked up, wait.
Pause.
And when you do, breathe.
Here's why that's important.
Your body's doing what it's beentrained to do, with or without
(11:51):
your permission, which is prettymuch to go into panic mode.
So the first thing that has tohappen is you gotta interrupt
that process.
Okay.
You're throwing a stick in thespinning wheel that the hamster
in your brain is already on.
And you do that with two singlewords to yourself.
This is something I do.
I say to myself, wait, breathe.
(12:12):
Wait, breathe.
If you're alone and you're inpanic mode, you say it out loud,
literally, more than once, ifnecessary, as many times as
necessary, as a matter of fact.
And then you do it.
Breathe in for four seconds, andthen breathe out for four
seconds.
Stretch out each thing to covera four second span.
(12:33):
Alright, and I know this isgoofy, but let's try it
together.
Okay?
Breathe in.
Breathe out.
Feel free to pause this and dothat three or four more times.
(12:53):
Again, let that breath in happenfor four seconds, let that
breath out happen for fourseconds.
This matters more than I canexplain to you.
The physiology of simply doingthat goes a long way in calming
your body.
And if you calm your body, youcan also start to calm your
mind.
One thing absolutely affects theother.
Doesn't have to be conscious,you don't have to talk yourself
(13:15):
into anything or out ofanything.
Just breathe and wait.
And then, once you're calmer,you do the third thing, which is
learning to physically counterthat reaction.
Now I'm going to try and explainthis by way of example.
My dog, Rosie, who happens to besleeping next to me right now,
(13:36):
should be doing something that Ican tell just by her behavior,
okay, she knows she's notsupposed to be doing, right?
She's up on a couch orsomething.
If I look at her and she catchesmy eye, or if I say, yo, she
stops dead in her tracks anddoes this thing like hi, hi, hi,
hi, papa.
SPEAKER_01 (13:53):
I wasn't, I wasn't really doing anything.
I'm just sitting here with mebeing good, see.
SPEAKER_02 (13:57):
What a therapist once told me is this.
He said, you have to get in thehabit of catching your brain in
the act of doing this bullshit.
The way he explained it wasthere's a physiological reaction
that happens, okay?
That that knee-jerk negativity,that self-talk, that's
unconscious processing.
It's triggered immediately.
Like I said, your body's alreadybeen trained to react without
(14:19):
your consent.
But here's the thing (14:20):
it literally stops if you notice it
doing that thing.
It stops when you catch it inthe act of being an asshole,
basically.
Once you become conscious of it,it's kind of like your brain
goes, what, who me?
I I wasn't doing anything.
See, I'm just sitting here beinggood, thinking nothing.
La la la la la.
(14:40):
It literally is that kind ofthing, okay?
Buddhists call this mindfulness,coming back to the present
moment, being right here, rightnow, instead of in that panic
place in your head.
And there are a number of waysto trigger that.
All right, you may have heardthat some people count.
They count to three in theirheads.
That stops the processing, orthey adopt a mantra, something
(15:01):
they say to themselves, which iswhat I do.
All right, in my case, I adopteda mantra that I read in possibly
the most terrible self-help bookI've ever read in my life.
Okay, book was garbage.
But the mantra was fantastic.
And the mantra was this mythoughts do not have to become
my emotions.
(15:21):
So what I do is the minute Ifeel that tension rise in my
chest, because that's how itshows up for me, right?
In my chest, I feel it like avice.
I first take a moment tobreathe, right?
Wait, breathe.
And then I start repeating thisphrase in my head.
And if I'm by myself, Iliterally repeat it out loud
(15:42):
over and over.
My thoughts do not have tobecome my emotions.
My thoughts do not have tobecome my emotions.
My thoughts do not have tobecome my emotions.
I do that for a solid minute,okay, or until I feel the
pressure release.
And it always does release.
All right.
So, tip of the hat to that guywho wrote a really crappy book
(16:02):
but managed to work one amazinggem into it.
All right.
And you can just talk toyourself as well.
Say to yourself, all right,look, you're doing the thing
again.
Calm down for a second.
Let's find out what's going onhere.
That's self-talk.
And the older you are, I reallybelieve the more you need to
practice this.
The more years you have of thatreflexive, ingrained, habitual
(16:24):
knee-jerk behavior, the harderit is to prevent it from
happening.
All right, you've become reallygood at it at this point.
So you have to develop acounter, you know, a challenge
like this to catch your brain inthe act and force it to stop
spinning that wheel.
It's the equivalent of youmentally body checking yourself
to say, yo, cut that negativeshit out and come back here.
(16:46):
Because that negative shit hasbecome second nature for you by
now.
Okay, you're there before youeven know you're there.
Tell me I'm wrong.
These two things, okay,breathing and countering your
reaction, are both the mostsimple and the most effective
responses in the world.
Why?
Because the very act of doingthem reminds your body that you
(17:07):
are in control.
You are driving this car.
You are dictating what happensnext.
You are saying to the imposteror to the devil on your
shoulder, or whatever the hellyou want to call it, you're
saying, listen, you can saywhatever the fuck you want, but
you're going to do what I tellyou to do.
Naming that action out loud orin your head or doing it
(17:29):
consciously like this buys youthe headspace you need to do the
very next thing, which isreplace fear with truth by
asking for clarification, askingfor more detail.
Because in the absence ofadditional information, it's
going to be hard not to react.
It's going to be hard not toinstantly dive into that
(17:50):
self-doubt.
So once you've taken thosebreaths, once you feel like
you're back in your body again,before your brain can try and
talk you out of it, you ask forclarification.
Can you give me some additionaldetail here?
Tell me why you're thinking thator tell me what's this about.
If there is silence from thatperson and you feel the panic
coming, ask them.
Tell me what you're feelingright now.
(18:12):
Tell me what you're thinkingright now.
Whatever it is, whatever theanswers that you really need in
that moment happen to be, pullit out in the open so that you
know what this is, so thatyou're not making guesses about
what it is or what it means.
Because in milliseconds, yourmind, just like my mind, will
want to make up all sorts ofunkind explanations for what
(18:33):
this is and what it means.
Even though I'm in a muchdifferent place with my life,
uh, with this at this point,that temptation is always there.
Okay.
That knee-jerk reaction isalways there.
That voice always pipes up in myhead, always every time it
essentially says, You must be introuble here.
They're quiet because you're introuble.
They didn't bother to explainwhat was going on because you're
in trouble, you know, whateverit is.
(18:54):
And with regard to the askingfor clarification part, I think
a lot of us are afraid to askclarifying questions because we
were brought up in a way whereit wasn't okay to ask questions.
It wasn't safe to ask questions.
And quite honestly, that hasnothing to do with necessarily
having, you know, horribleparents or a horrible upbringing
or whatever.
It has a lot to do withgenerational stuff.
(19:17):
You know, my parents' generationand certainly the generation
before, you didn't ask anything,okay?
You you didn't speak untilspoken to.
There was a there was a sort ofunspoken understanding that kids
did what they were told.
You accepted what was, right?
You didn't ask questions.
That was not a thing.
So, by way of example, I mean, Iwas a weird, sensitive artist
(19:41):
kid.
You know, I was a young boy withsensitive feelings in a world of
alpha males and athletes.
I didn't really fit in in anyway, any shape or form.
And there is this expectedpoliteness among my parents'
generation where you just don'tchallenge things.
Okay.
You don't challenge authorityfigures, you don't ask
questions, even if they're Damngood questions, which is 180
(20:03):
degrees from how a lot of peoplein my generation, and certainly
my wife and I have raised ourkids, which is, you know, just
because that person is in aposition of authority does not
automatically make them right.
So if you're doubting something,you have a right to spit it out
onto the table and say, look, Idon't think I like what's
happening here.
But we weren't taught that.
We were taught that you don'thave a right to question
(20:24):
anything, which translates intoyou don't deserve an answer.
You're not worthy of an answer.
These are the messages that getinternalized and accepted.
And the only way to combat this,at least at the start, is to
physically find ways to sort ofbody check that impulse when it
happens, like I said, becauseit's gonna happen.
No matter how long you go totherapy, no matter how long you
(20:46):
listen to me talk about this,it's still gonna happen.
It still happens to me.
All right, instantly.
The only difference between meat 56 years of age and me at
eight years of age is that Idon't let it go anywhere past
that first step.
I got lots of mechanisms, I'vegot lots of ways that I counter
it.
I simply don't let it happen.
(21:08):
Wait, breathe, come back tocenter, be patient, let it pass.
Now, here's what I need you tounderstand and internalize.
This is not a magic bullet foryour fears.
It's practice.
It is something you consciouslystart doing in order to
eventually turn it into areflexive habit.
(21:30):
A habit of trying to be morepresent, trying to be more
conscious in that moment,steering the boat instead of
being swept along by thecurrent.
Like I said before, and I reallyhave to stress this because it's
the number one thing that keepspeople from overcoming this
shit.
You don't get rid of this, youmanage it.
(21:51):
There is no someday I will befree of this.
That's an outright lie.
No matter what any bullshit bookor self-help program claims, you
will not magically be free ofit.
And that is okay.
Because what you absolutelypositively will be in time if
you practice consistently is youwill be able to control it the
(22:14):
instant it happens.
You will be able to put it inits place.
And in the next episode, I'mgoing to tell you exactly how to
do that.
SPEAKER_00 (22:32):
You've been listening to Making UX Work with
Joe Natoli.
Honest talk about the hiddenchallenges that shape a design
career.
See you next time.
And until then, onward andupward.
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