December 11, 2017 • 53 mins
Hailing from the UK, my guest Leon Strydom has been working in and on the web since 2008, splitting his time between visual design and front-end development, while frequently turning his talents to print-based design work as well.
While Leon is somewhat new to UX and is currently looking for a job, it becomes obvious pretty quickly that he's a natural. He has drive, dedication and a near-obsessive attention to process that's essential to delivering positive UX.
There's no doubt in my mind that Leon would be a valuable asset to any organization, and top of that, he's incredibly sharp-witted and thoughtful. You're going to enjoy this one, folks.
Learn more about Leon:
Portfolio/Website: leonstrydom.com
Twitter: @MrNiceLeon
LinkedIn: leon-strydom
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hello and welcome to making us work to give you
podcast.
I'm your host Jonah Toli and ourfocus here is on folks like you
doing a real often unglamorousUKCS work in the real world.
You'll hear about theirstruggles their successes and
their journey to and through thetrenches of product design
development and of course userexperience.
(00:31):
My guest today is Leon stride.
Leon has been working in and onthe web since 2008 journeying
between visual design and frontend development frequently
turning his hand to print basedgraphic design as well.
No although he's somewhat new tothe X design community and is
looking for a new job it becomesimmediately apparent that Leon's
(00:53):
drive commitment and dedicationto the design process and design
thinking in general infuseseverything that he does and from
talking with him.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I think it's also very obvious that he would be a
valuable asset to anyorganization.
So without further ado here's myconversation with Leon Strydom
on making us work so first andforemost how are you.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Yeah I'm good.
I'm just really busy trying tofind work.
Read writing about 10 coverletters every day.
And you know some people mightthink what's coverlet says who
cares but they're quiteimportant especially in our
industry.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
You have to show that you actually that you actually
genuinely interested in thecompany that youre applying to
and not just in finding a jobwherever that may be you know.
Speaker 5 (01:43):
So every cover letter is a tailored piece of
Shakespearean beauty.
Speaker 6 (01:49):
So its well as good as it should be quite honestly
because that's one of themistakes that I think I see.
Speaker 7 (01:58):
I see way too much in that you know candidates and the
same form letter to everyorganization they are talking
to.
And you know the person on theother end feels like all right I
know that you sent this to 40people.
Why is it that you want to workfor us and that's really what
they want to know exactly.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
Yeah exactly.
That's why I'm precisely whatI'm trying to avoid Janai mom
always try to match the languagethat they use in their job ads
and you know.
Yes.
Look at the company is as wellto find something to talk about
when it comes to why it is youwant to work for them and
particularly.
Speaker 8 (02:32):
So yeah what are the things you look at out of
curiosity when you're doingresearch on an organization or
why can use this latest one thatI did as an example.
I went in search.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
You know I look at their Web site and a lot of
companies have a section calledculture or something very
similar.
And you know it normally talksabout women there you'd normally
see what their values are likethe type of social events that
they have for their teams andstuff like that and anything
(03:01):
that they talk about in terms ofthe economy or the environment.
You know that's gold rightthere.
You know there's loads of stuffthat you can elaborate on when
it comes to that sort of thing.
But this latest one denies themislay latest place actually
have their own design process.
(03:21):
And you know I just me being allabout process I just you know
right bang.
That's why I'm going to talk tothem about and you know send
them a nice little gift ofsomebody.
Speaker 5 (03:32):
I think it was Oh gosh yes Nicki Minaj like saying
wow to the camera and you know Ijust added the text the name of
their design process in textileonto the gif and send them off
to them.
And they said right thanks.
And they immediately go back tome said thank you.
We'll be in touch hopefullyarrange a interview.
(03:54):
So you know it goes to show manthat kind of thing pays off.
Speaker 7 (03:59):
Well yeah you made an impression obviously.
And look that's the name of thegame.
OK.
Every recruiter every hiringmanager I mean myself and I had
my own company when I washiring.
When I've done for clients whatI think a lot of people forget
is that the volume ofapplications and resumes and
cover letters and e-mails andinquiries that the people doing
(04:22):
the hiring get is enormous.
Yeah it's an enormous so one ofthe first things that you do as
you go through and you'relooking for something that jumps
out at you immediately becauseyou can't spend the time that
you would like.
With all of it right it soundslike that's very much the
approach that your take.
Speaker 5 (04:37):
Yeah no.
It's the age old story.
These recruiters have how manyapplications to wade through.
So you know the ones that standout are the ones that are going
to get looked at.
Speaker 7 (04:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
So out of curiosity what led youto the point where now you're
looking for a new gig.
Tell me that story right.
Speaker 8 (04:56):
OK.
I can tell this story withoutgoing into my my timeline.
You know that's OK.
Let's do it.
I graduated in 2007 afterstudying graphic communications.
All openly admit that you know.
This was during my early 20swhen I was still you know I was
a totally different person backthen I was of course in the
(05:19):
wrong frame of mind to be doingsomething as serious as a
degree.
You know and like if I was if Iwas to do it again now it would
be such a different story butregardless of that regardless.
Basically.
Long story short I had a degreethat I could put on my CV and
you know that got my foot insome doors.
(05:39):
And in 2001.
What was that degree GraphicCommunication.
It's basically graphic design.
Speaker 5 (05:45):
But you know you delve into the four main
pathways that you can applygraphic design and like branding
product design.
When I say product design I'mtalking about packaging you
know.
Yeah.
Like boxes and cartons and stufflike that and all the products.
Digital products but there was adigital pathway as well which is
(06:06):
why did we spend most of ourtime in Dobies flash which was
Macromedia Flash then.
Yes.
So that's why I studied and thatled to 2008.
And mind you before I carry onthe 2008 was of course when the
economic downturn was in fulleffect the banks had just made
(06:29):
massive Boubou and the pressurewas felt all around us really
like especially in the placesoutside of major cities like
London which was where I wasbased I was based in the
suburbs.
In 2008 I landed a nice littlerole with a marketing company
who mostly did work for churchesand ministries and stuff like
(06:51):
that.
And everything from print toprint Filmon as in you know they
get to get the stuff deliveredand stuff like that.
But they took me on mainlybecause I had experience with
web.
You know I was able to designand build basic websites and
that was an avenue that they hadnot explored.
(07:13):
A lot of it you know I mean thiswas during the days when I E6
untransparent pinioned GS werestill a thing.
Speaker 7 (07:20):
AMIN Yeah yeah yeah I mean those are still very early
days here.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
And you know the big names like Jared spel and who
else Simon Collison had onlyjust started evangelizing CSSA
back then.
You know I mean so that's justto give everybody a rough clue
as to when we're talking abouthere.
So yeah I was doing both web andprint in 2009 mostly mostly web
(07:47):
because I was the only one.
And you know back then I had noclue about user experience.
But still that role led up toabout 2010 when I joined a
company that specialized mainlyin web and yet still again the
word X was not really inanybody's vocabulary there.
(08:09):
And that's some of that storyled all the way up to 2015.
Believe it or not.
And so yeah in 2015 was reallythe wakeup call for me because
you know we were doing work thatreally facilitated or at least
you know would have thrived onspecializing in X you know
(08:32):
because a lot of the work thatwe would do in worse recruitment
sites so heavy exchange ofpersonal details and stuff like
that.
And you know there was noassessing the process they use
had to go through or anythinglike that.
Anything that they struggle withit was initially just a case of
why OK we're going to buy thesewordpress plugins and we're just
(08:55):
going to let them do theirthing.
We're not going to worry aboutit.
All right.
Total Hochstein out of.
Yeah basically.
And you know more a case ofusability as well because you
know thinking back to it therewere sites where you know the
guy who was in charge just saidright do this and I was like
really you want them to do allof this just to get them out
(09:16):
from you.
And I learned just to name arough example.
Speaker 5 (09:19):
And yeah that was my story in 2016 I enrolled in a
online course that gave us thegave us a thorough introduction
to your facts.
And here I am trying to thatended about two months ago.
Now I'm full fledged into my jobsearch interest.
Speaker 7 (09:41):
So did you.
Did you leave that organizationor did they fall on hard times
or what happened.
Speaker 5 (09:47):
Bouffe relief they fell on hard times and you know
just prior to that they they leta whole bunch of us go.
Me included.
In fact I think I was the verylast one that they had said
goodbye to before shutting theirdoors.
You know.
So it goes to show that I don'tI don't think they were
(10:07):
providing any real value totheir client base.
Speaker 9 (10:10):
I mean one of their clients were actually recruiters
for the creative industry andthey came to us asking for
something on a no groundbreakingand thinking back the only what
they were really asking was goodyou x x so they probably didn't
call it that.
Speaker 7 (10:30):
And you know my bet would be the organization didn't
really have the language tospeak to there either.
Was this company verytechnologically driven very sort
of I.T.
programming development Trivettor wasn't it wasn't a design for
it was kind of neither.
Speaker 5 (10:47):
I'm going to sound very cynical here but you know
it's really the closest to thetruth I can possibly fathom.
But it was basically false.
Four people came together andsaid Right we were in the
recruitment industry.
Design looks like something thatanybody can do.
(11:08):
I know it's something thateverybody has so you know why
not let's let's do it ourselvesand yes they just thought OK
well we need a web developer orsomething.
So and that's when I came intothe picture.
They rang me up and they evenyou know mis advertised the job
to me they said web designer andI don't know about anybody else.
(11:29):
But if someone says web designit's me is not saying what the
other you and I would like.
Speaker 6 (11:35):
Well of course not.
Speaker 7 (11:36):
But you know they don't know what they don't know.
So to them that the term meanssomething completely different.
Speaker 10 (11:41):
Yeah I tried my best to push because you know one of
these four people and he had hisPaet his team working in the
house so you know in thebackground of working you'd have
people on the phone to end userssaying like you know.
Right yeah.
Give us a call or come in for aninterview stuff like that and I
(12:01):
don't know.
Like am I wrong for thinking.
Bang that's gold right there.
We've got the perfectopportunity to talk to our end
users and I do the best work wepossibly can.
I mean of course how much effortwould have been to just add in a
question or two about the Website and anything that the
funding Astley about it youknow.
Speaker 7 (12:22):
Yeah I tell you what I'm curious about hearing you
say that.
How much of that impetus whenyou think in yourself OK why
don't we talk to these peoplethey're actually using it.
They have insight that we need.
You know this is sort of aperfect leap in logic.
How much of that was driven byyour background in more
traditional design versus yourexposure to us.
(12:42):
Was it one more than the otherwas it both.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
I think it was both because I think you know I think
the line that separates us andjust normal design is very thin.
Because you know essentially Isee design as being about people
you know like whether it's theend users or just audiences you
know like I mean you take thepeople who are going to be
(13:09):
consuming your work intoconsideration and you proceed
accordingly.
I mean everything from typefacetoys to you know the
functionality that you push foryou know it's all down to the
people that youre designing forI'd say Amen.
And so in a way it was both thatinfluenced me wanting to push
(13:29):
for them to talk to the users.
Speaker 10 (13:30):
You know I mean you know at the end of the day if I
had to say it was one or theother I'd say it was just my
design instincts you knowbecause we are like we're just
designing for the guy who's incharge here.
You know he's saying do this andthat and you know OK fine you're
paying the bills but geez howsuccessful is this Web site of
yours I mean like you've gotyour job listings right.
(13:52):
The bottom of the page.
Whereas you know they should beat the top of the page for
example and I bet.
Yeah it was my design instinctsI say.
Speaker 7 (14:01):
And I think that misunderstanding has been around
because I started outinternational design as well
right.
My my degree was in graphicdesign.
I think the struggle there we'retalking about right that the
sort of struggle where you'reconfronted with stakeholders or
business folks or clients orwhoever it is that sort of you
can see where they need to gobut they can't get out of their
own way to get there.
(14:22):
That same struggle has beengoing on since before the
Internet right says when graphicdesign was just graphic design
and people who built softwaredidn't want nothing to do with
designers.
I think it was the same fight.
You know you're doing marketingmatures or an advertising
campaign or TV or radio orwhatever it is and it's the same
struggle right where people aresaying well no I want this.
(14:44):
You say well why do you wantthat.
Why is it going to land this waywith people why is it going to
affect people and they don'tknow and they're not willing to
go there.
They're just sort of want whatthey want.
I mean make the logo bigger andI'm like OK yeah yeah yeah
exactly how big the logo gonnaeffect.
Speaker 10 (15:01):
You know usability like you know how's it going to
make your site more usable andmore while useful.
Speaker 7 (15:08):
You know I mean I always had the sense that it's
the same fight now because it'sthe end of the day what is this
doing for you.
What's it saying to people whatit's allowing them or motivating
them to do.
And then how is it helping youas organization.
I think these questions andthese issues and these struggles
simply sort of change theirshape and size.
(15:30):
But at their core they are thesame the same struggles.
Speaker 5 (15:35):
Yeah I think there's more than I you.
Maybe it's something else but Icould swear that's something to
do with personal taste and youknow Pride and stuff like that I
mean it's their money and youknow at the end of the day they
want to make sure that theyleave their mark on it seeing as
it's their baby I suppose.
But gees like when pride comesin the way of common sense and
(15:58):
stuff like that the ninth makeonly some people able to see
that it could be detrimental.
Speaker 7 (16:05):
Yeah.
Have you ever had a situationwhere you know you were in one
of those sort of battles andthat person whether it be a
client or a stakeholder orsomebody internal turn their
ship around turn the Chaseropinion and said you know what.
You're right about that I reallydidn't think about this.
And you know where they wereable to put themselves aside.
(16:25):
Have you had any experienceslike that.
Speaker 11 (16:27):
Yeah.
This last position that Imention in 2015 with you know
the recruitment sites that wewere working on I think there
were a couple of times where Ipoint to something out like for
and the example that I usedearlier was this one site had
all the job listings at the verybottom of the page.
(16:48):
And mind you this is quite along page loads of scrolling
involved Nidetch.
Speaker 9 (16:53):
I did push for those job listings to be moved up the
page saw thing and you know theperson who was signing off on
the design turned around andsaid Yeah you're right.
You know why you're right sir.
Do I like if there was no usetesting involved either.
You know like I tested I wentundercover and tested it with
(17:14):
some of my friends and you knowall of that on off the record
stuff is you know you might aswell not bother bringing that to
the table you know.
Because if it's not officialsigned off by them then they
don't really care.
Sourcing but that was one battlethat I won where I said right.
This is what what are you whatyou used to do.
(17:35):
They said apply for jobs and Ireplied with.
Right.
Make that prominent stay ofcenter stage.
You know and they yeah they theysaw it my way.
Speaker 7 (17:44):
How often do you think that's a case of somebody
in your position with a designeror a you X person whoever.
How many times do you think thatnot happening is a case of the
designer or the your expertsimply never asking the
question.
Speaker 5 (18:00):
Goodness from my personal experience anyway.
That happened quite often in theorganization.
I was with because when I afterso many times of trying and just
having it shot down it sort ofsets like a baseline standard or
at least a consensus that youknow.
Right.
Don't bother.
Don't bother trying to makearguments like that because we
(18:23):
know how we're going aboutplaying our game.
So just don't bother you just awaste of time.
But maybe it varies based on theorganization but the place where
I was at that was certainly thenorm.
Speaker 9 (18:37):
You know I mean so most of the time so people just
give up.
Yeah.
Like I mean the only solution Icould think of was to I don't
know do gorilla testing withoutanybody knowing and just saying
to them Look I've got thesenumbers here on paper.
If you're going to argue withthose then that's fine.
But for what it's worth histhings are actually looking like
(19:00):
you know this is the result ofyour design decisions that you
made me implement sort of thing.
Obviously not in those wordsbecause then they were just
fine.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
Yeah you have to be diplomatic isn't my problem is
that I was always going at thesaw a problem alone and I so I
have no benchmark by which tosay right OK.
That's how they handled it orthat's how you should approach.
You know and that's what works.
So yes like I've only got myexperiences to go by here.
Speaker 7 (19:29):
You know I mean did their opinion of you or the way
that they interacted with youchanged to a degree after that
moment.
Speaker 9 (19:36):
How you know how you're like oh I don't know if
this is just the type of peoplethey were socially or like you
know whether this is initially astandard of professionalism.
But yeah they just felt likethis anyway it felt like they
saw me as argumentative anddisruptive and stuff like that.
(19:56):
Not disruptive in the word thatwe know in the world.
You know designing disruptionand stuff like that.
Yet just purely disruptive wasthe workflow and you know
detrimental most even though yougave them something that was
there was a definite positivechange.
Speaker 5 (20:14):
If I do say so myself fortunately like tonight it's a
horror story to say the least.
Hell.
It is what it is.
Speaker 7 (20:24):
Yeah and there are a lot of them and I think it's a
hard line to walk right whereyou say to yourself are I on one
hand.
I believe in this so I have tospeak up I have to say something
about it I have to do somethingabout it.
And you know you guys have allheard this from me prior.
You're robbing everybody in theroom of what you're capable of
and your value if you don'tspeak up at the same time you
(20:46):
also have to know when you'rebanging your head against a wall
and you're continuing to injureyourself and nothing's going to
change.
Certainly.
Did you change or did you changeyour approach after that just
for your own personal sanity.
But my approach to evangelizingthe users in terms of you know
if you if you're sort of gettingbeat up after that or you know
(21:08):
now you're the enemy.
The change your approach at alljust to get through the day.
Speaker 12 (21:14):
Yeah by that point I mean the the writing was on the
wall.
Speaker 9 (21:19):
And I'm like wow.
Actually there was there were afew separate pieces of writing
on the wall one of which wasright.
You're not going to win here.
So just do what you got to dobecause I mean you've got bills
to pay.
So just do what they tell youto.
I mean of course it wasn't thelong after that that you know I
sort of woke up and thought.
(21:40):
Right.
To find a different job.
You know I mean.
Speaker 7 (21:42):
Yeah.
And it sounds like things sortof imploded anyway so that you
were heading that directionregardless.
Speaker 9 (21:47):
Yeah I was I was in the middle of packing my things
and then I was like right.
Can we speak to you for asecond.
So I was I sort of missed mychance of legitimately handing
in my notice before theyactually took the liberty in
making me redundant which youknow I'm it's is what it is I
(22:09):
finished crying about that along time ago.
Speaker 7 (22:12):
So yeah Well there's you know the old cliche is
always when one door closesanother one opens and we all
laugh and we were all our eyes.
But you know as someone who hasheaded towards 50 it really is
the truth.
The river goes where it needs togo.
For the most part so it's alwaystempting to look back and spend
a lot of time sort of gnashingyour teeth about things that are
(22:34):
taking place prior but there'sreally no value in it and you're
headed where you need to beheaded I think I think so I'd
say.
Speaker 13 (22:40):
And that's one of the handful of positives that I
can take away from that place.
And I hope day it set me off ondedicate dedicating myself
towards gaining my new skillsand really appreciating what a
use a sense of design approachis all about and I really
orientating my efforts aroundthat you know.
(23:03):
And like whereas before I wasjust following the way that I
was always doing things thatyeah the bowl games different
different now and it's hardgetting a job.
But still like I'm still verymuch optimist as optimistic as I
was when I first started my jobsearch.
Speaker 7 (23:21):
So that's fantastic.
Yeah.
What's what's keeping youmotivated.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
I just said I believe I stand a chance.
Speaker 5 (23:26):
I mean you know I appreciate that it's a
competitive market and you knowthis time of year especially
here in the UK anyway is reallybusy and all that.
Speaker 9 (23:36):
So you know obviously progress is going to be slow
but.
And also if I'm going to beblunt about this anywhere is
better than where I was lasttime around this.
Speaker 7 (23:47):
Now I understand that.
I think that's I don't thinkthere's anything wrong with that
statement.
Speaker 9 (23:52):
Yeah sorry like I'm going to Graun myself the
opportunity to get out mytestosterone.
Speaker 7 (23:56):
Right.
So obviously mean you feel likeyou learned a lot of lessons you
learned a lot of things aboutyourself going forward.
What kind of role in yourperfect ideal world what kind of
role do you see yourself in.
Speaker 14 (24:10):
I'm off.
Got my hopes set on really ganginteractions.
Speaker 12 (24:15):
I really you know more so product is the more
product design oriented side ofthings where you know you work
out the functionality the flowbad the use of flows and you
know the general architecture ofthings and my by field I've got
an actual skill or at least anatural eye for that side of
things and after I've gonethrough I've got visual design
(24:38):
flair but obviously you knowthere's always going to be
somebody better than you at thatI feel yeah.
Speaker 13 (24:45):
When it comes to interaction design and the more
sort of fundamental layer ofthings then yeah.
Like I've got something to offerthe world.
Speaker 7 (24:53):
And I mean what pieces of that do you enjoy
doing the most.
Speaker 13 (24:57):
That's an interesting question.
More architectural side ofthings.
I do feel like I've got anactual knack for information
architecture and really workingout the you know how things flow
from from screen to screen andyou know what's what's most
important to users and stuff.
Speaker 7 (25:18):
So I mean what's interesting to me about that is
that I know a lot of people andI keep going back to this theme
I get that but I know a lot ofpeople who came up in
traditional design OK andthey're very good visual design
and some of them are flat outexcellent visuals.
And then as they go on in theircareers especially with a
proliferation of all thingsdigital they find that the
(25:41):
behind the scenes parts ofinteraction design or
information architecture or youknow what constitutes good user
experience all the sort of youknow white boardings strategic
information heavy work wherewe're not talking about what's
on the screen per se anymore.
You talked about the psychologyof people.
They just they dive into withboth feet in it.
(26:03):
It gives them this focus andthis lift that they didn't have
previously and I'm alwayscurious about what the
connection is there.
Because honest to god I know alot of people who are really
excellent at the non visualnon-technical work that we're
talking about here.
Speaker 9 (26:22):
And almost all of them started in traditional
visual design and that is aninteresting thing because
yourself working backwards ifyoure thinking about it and then
as an explicit design processyou know I mean like this
tossing out higher up in theprocess and then you know sort
of go backwards in terms ofRibe.
(26:44):
All my skills are later on butI'm going to try and apply
myself to where it all startsoff.
I suppose that's where I'mcoming from West Africa or a
similar story to say to telleven you know because while I
studied and my exposure so farreally was towards the visual
end product and I and that'swhat you did for me as well.
(27:05):
Yeah that's why you did me.
I was really wanting to get myhands into the process.
You know I might get involvedwhen things really start.
First off I make sure that theproduct that we're going to
produce Britney has good valueto the world.
Speaker 7 (27:22):
Right.
Right.
I mean it is sort of workingbackwards in that all of a
sudden you find at least for me.
You sort of find great joy andsatisfaction in saying yeah but
why are we doing that.
You know we give them up tothem.
It's it's you sort of think youknow you mentioned being young
major in college.
You have a different mindset.
(27:43):
You're a different person whenyou're your 20s than you are in
your 30s and your 40s and Ithink you start thinking about
it differently where as beforewhen you are younger you have an
awful lot of confidence in whatyou're doing.
You believe that you're right noone else in the room is wrong.
Speaker 6 (27:57):
At least I did not remember.
Speaker 7 (28:01):
And then it's interesting you get to the point
where you feel like it's a lotmore interesting to say well
wait a minute why is this theright thing to do and why does
this matter and why do we thinkthis is the right solution.
And to a lot of people that'slike that's the equivalent of
watching paint dry.
Yes.
You know.
Speaker 6 (28:21):
So.
So here we are we're obsessedwith what's wrong with us Leon
and I like this.
Speaker 11 (28:28):
It just comes naturally and that's why I
thought you know I should stickwith this direction.
Couple of times I have thoughtright.
Should I maybe not become aplumber or something else
instead.
The nicest this national naturalinquisitiveness or strive for
really been there since from theinception that I've made know.
(28:52):
And if you take my cooking mystory about my previous employer
into consideration you knowthat's exactly what happened.
Speaker 13 (28:59):
You know I was like why do you want all of this
stuff before the before thestuff that the user if it came
to your site for you and I likeyou know reasons reasons reasons
why I don't want people todefend their reasoning for their
decisions even sorry but do giveme some insight as to why this
(29:20):
is useful and that I thinkthere's part of that that can be
taught.
Speaker 7 (29:23):
Like for instance you know where I went to design
school the Y was huge.
All right and I got my asshanded to me several times by
professors where I presentsomething that I thought was
visually brilliant.
And they said OK here's who youraudience is.
This has nothing to do with whatthey expect or what they're used
to or what they will interpretproperly.
Right.
So that was hammered into me.
(29:44):
That it has to be appropriateand has to be relevant has to be
speaking language has to beculturally relevant in some way.
So that's certainly part of it.
But I often feel like there'ssomething intrinsic in the
character in the genetic makeupof those of us who do this work
where that's the compelling partof this equation.
(30:07):
Right.
It's just it just seems theolder I get.
I wonder if you are part of someof that can be taught.
You can certainly learn themechanics and you can learn you
know what to look at whether youcare about it or not is another
thing entirely.
Speaker 9 (30:19):
Yeah.
Oh just repeat myself and sayyou know Epov a part of my sense
of empathy for example you knowit just comes to me naturally.
And I like I just can't help butwonder about what is whether or
not what is I'm doing isactually going to be useful or
exceed their expectations.
Speaker 12 (30:40):
You know like yeah just everything seems like a
problem to be solved sort ofthing.
And I mean yeah.
Speaker 7 (30:47):
And I think that's what separates great designers
from good designers is whatseparates people who truly excel
at user experience architecturedesign information architecture
or anything from folks who arejust sort of you know have a
passing interest but neverreally get beyond being an order
taker.
You know that's the key.
(31:08):
And I think I'd be interested inyour take in this based on what
you've seen so far my personalbelief is that to get where you
need to go in this profession.
OK.
All things we're talking about.
You're willing to ask hardquestions being sort of a
natural problem solver alwayssort of fixating on the on the
(31:28):
why is this appropriate.
I think it's required but I alsothink it's a harder way to go.
To get to the point in yourcareer where you need to be you
know where you're where you'rehappy and fulfilled and you do
the kind of work you want to doand you're getting sort of the
respect and attention andcollaboration quite frankly that
(31:48):
you're after.
Have any any any thoughts aroundthat.
Speaker 15 (31:51):
Well from personal experience I think my main
problem was just the way thatperhaps how I would have myself
and I have my gun.
No but it's certainly a skillthat you have to learn.
Take care.
McAuliff feedback properly.
Mike nothing's personal.
As you know if I think that avisual piece of visual design is
(32:14):
just not good enough then youknow I'm going to say look this
needs to be reconsidered and youknow more often than not.
The creator of that piece ofwork has you know invested an
emotional part of himself andyou know that is always that
part of them is always thecasualty when it comes to
feedback that's anything lessthan absolutely positive.
(32:37):
You know I'm sure.
So yeah.
And I think that's you knowthat's like a token of what it
means to be unprofessional.
You know and like you need to beemotionally detached from
whatever it is you're doing.
So that is I mean you knowwhat's the point in being so
emotionally attached to yourwork.
(32:57):
Like if it's if it gets rejectedthen you're just gonna feel down
about it you know and yeah thatdoes nobody any good.
But I digress.
Speaker 7 (33:05):
I suppose no.
I think it's perfectly on topic.
I mean you're talking abouttaking things personally.
Were you in that boat yourself.
Speaker 15 (33:13):
Let me think back if I cos I suppose when I first got
out I mean you know we go.
We had enough exercise at thisuniversity I mean like we had
full on design critiques and youknow we yeah yeah we got sort of
conditioned into being able tohandle feedback.
(33:33):
And I like because I've been oneof my mottos is there's no
negative feedback.
The only negative feedback isyou know the feedback that's not
useful.
I don't know if you've noticedthis but whenever I post the
piece of work on your Facebookpage asking for feedback I
always use the words pleaseshoot this down for me because I
(33:54):
want it I want it to be rippedapart like that's where I find
the most useful feedback.
Generally you know I like I needto know where this design is
failing.
You know I mean like yes sure.
Tell me what you like.
I would much rather hear whatyou don't like.
Speaker 9 (34:10):
You know I mean and I used the words shoot it down so
that people can feel comfortableenough in being perfectly honest
with me.
You know I like because nobody'sgoing to hurt my feelings.
But obviously trying toempathize with them in a town
like yeah they don't want tohave feelings so they're going
to try and be as hard about aspossible.
Speaker 7 (34:28):
So you know I Yeah and you can see where I mean I
notice so when people ask forfeedback the way they ask for it
tells me whether they've beenthrough a college sort of
critique curriculum or not.
I mean you could sort of see itbecause the people who have are
always the ones who are sayinglook tell me the unvarnished
truth.
You're not going to hurt myfeelings.
I need to know.
(34:49):
And I think that's reallyvaluable.
And I wonder if there aren'tother professional tangential
professions around productdevelopment OK that maybe don't
get that in a collegeenvironment.
I don't know one way or theother but I'm always curious
about it because I think there'sa defensiveness that plays into
(35:09):
a lot of roles related toproduct development.
It sort of makes me think thatwhen they get into a real role
it's the first time they've everexperienced real criticism.
Real feedback real constructive.
I don't mean you know people whoare making personal attacks but
it always seems like it's veryfresh to people because they get
hurt.
You know no matter no matter howit comes across yet.
Speaker 11 (35:31):
And you mentioned their feedback that just comes
from as a personal attack saynow I regard that Ibai I totally
disregard that whenever wheneverI get subjected to it.
But I do regard that as uselessfeedback.
You know I mean I don't think itis feedback it's all like you
know one comments like you knowthere's no enough contrast or
(35:53):
you know the message is wrong.
A while back I posted up a logoon your Facebook page which I
confess I was quite fond of.
But it got shut down and it wasbecause the messaging was
fundamentally wrong.
So yeah like that.
And that was useful.
I mean I was like yeah shamebecause I really did like that
(36:14):
logo.
Boom.
You know I don't want to put thewrong messaging across.
You know what that's like.
That's disastrous right.
And I feel that in that veryinstance I grew as a designer.
That was something that fromhenceforth paid a lot more
attention to.
You know I don't know.
I think there's a pattern withyou know the more visual
(36:36):
deliverables those get the moreemotion gets attached as well.
You know I mean like if asitemap have done is wrong you
know as I shake it off.
No problem.
You know if it's a logo thatI've thought about really hard
and really liked the look ofthem you know is just like me.
But with anything else likeinteractions and stuff like that
(36:58):
that probably not as good asthat could be doesn't faze me
it's all interesting.
Speaker 7 (37:02):
So is that more about the visual nature of the result
or is it more about the factthat this is a more tangible
real end result.
And now it's sort of gettingreal and your sort of personal
attachment changes.
The closer we get to reality.
What do you think that is.
Speaker 13 (37:18):
I think it's both of those.
Yes sure.
Cause there's an element ofwhites were essentially talking
about art in a way when we'retalking about visual design sort
sourcing you know I mean so it'syou know a part of the design
are all artists self-expressiongoes into it.
You know I mean so it's sort ofa part of them that gets
(37:38):
rejected when things aren'tquite as they should be.
But also you know it's more on aconstructive level as well when
you know it's more of a it's afunctional piece of work that
needs to perform in a certainway that once you find it within
yourself to focus on whether ornot it's actually performing and
doing what it should do andthings get easier or supposed
(38:01):
to.
It's tricky.
Not because it's constantly thisback and forth between being
expressive and being you knowmore utilitarian as well.
Speaker 7 (38:10):
And of course I mean I personally have always held
the belief OK people say it'sbusiness is not personal.
And I get that an offer comesfrom but it's kind of bullshit
to me because if you care aboutwhat you do to any degree I
really care about it really careabout the end result really care
that it's worthwhile.
You have to invest some ofyourself into it.
(38:33):
You've got to invest someemotion and some commitment and
some dedication and into it andthat is very personal.
That drive is very personal.
So I think one of the hardestthings for all of us to do as
human beings is to take thatstep back and hear the things
that you know you don't want tohear but do the hard work of
(38:55):
saying I'm going to sit here I'mgoing to listen to this and I'm
going to be open to it because Idon't care.
At the end of the day aboutbeing right being right is not
the goal here.
So on the heels of that whenyou're in these situations or
when you have been in thesesituations in the past how did
you have any I don't know sortof techniques or self talk or
(39:15):
anything that you use to try andstop yourself from just reacting
emotionally so that you can beopen to what's being said.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
That's an interesting question.
You know I suppose that sayingsomething like just growing
thick skin frou frou exposure isquite the answer they are
looking for.
But if you think that happensthat if that's worked for you
then sure I'm interested inhearing about it because I mean
yeah it's all very proportionalto the feedback.
Speaker 5 (39:44):
Like I mean in some cases yes you can tell that
something was just meant to saynice of you know something was
meant so it just sort of get outyou will most you know I mean
like I'm not the.
Sounds silly or not.
Speaker 7 (39:58):
No intent intent it's very clear in the way people
speak.
I hear you.
Speaker 12 (40:03):
Yeah I mean because I find discarded at my previous
employer because they just don'tbelieve in me.
You know that one of the peoplethat I answer to yeah they just
had in their head that you'renot a designer.
Your problem.
You're more of a technicalperson.
You know I so like henceforthI'm going to bed on mind every
(40:24):
time you submit a piece of work.
So I think you know I mean andfor me anyway it was just a case
of right.
If you want this job if you ifyou need the money enough then
you're just going off to rollwith it and just take on the
chin sourcing you know hands.
Yeah.
After a while it comes naturallyto you.
Speaker 9 (40:41):
But I just learned to always keep a straight face like
you had just simple things likethat really what is it.
Speaker 7 (40:50):
I'm laughing because I thought of something somebody
told me a long time ago in factI think I want to say it was
part of a conversation I hadwith Henry Rollins.
HENRY ROLLINS Yeah really yeahyeah yeah.
I interviewed him a couple oftimes and for several years we
had sort of a correspondencegoing back which is interesting
(41:12):
story for another time.
But one of my favorite peopleand what he said to me was when
criticism or feedback is comingat you.
And it's and you can tell thatit's personal in nature and it
has nothing to do with you knowmaking something better or you
know the topic at hand orwhatever he said the way that he
responds to it is he'll say.
(41:34):
Duly noted.
OK.
Speaker 6 (41:36):
Which to him is a very polite way of saying
exactly like you get out.
I thought that was one of themost brilliant things I've ever
heard and I probably shouldadmit this out loud but I use it
all right.
Yes.
Because for two reasons.
It's polite.
Right when you say it and nowprivate I've got to say it
(41:58):
anymore because it's going to bepublic secrets out now.
Right.
I'm not going to get away withit.
But but it's polite.
Right it comes across well.
And at the same time you get thepersonal satisfaction of sort of
knowing what you're reallysaying.
Yeah.
Speaker 16 (42:14):
Without getting a bad response.
Speaker 6 (42:17):
Yeah that's great.
That's right.
But I mean the reason I'm thereason I mention it though is
because I think that's that'spart of it is that you have to
find a way to respond.
Speaker 7 (42:28):
That's not emotional because the minute you allow
yourself to go there you've lostperiod.
Even if the person is justinterested in personally
attacking you there's nothing tobe gained from a fight right if
you go into a conversation withyour fists.
The only outcome is going to bea battle.
And it doesn't serve anybody.
Speaker 16 (42:46):
It's been duly noted my real life like this is.
Speaker 14 (42:54):
Yeah this is a very useful cause.
I mean it's really encouragingbecause and I still feel like I
wasn't far off in my assumptionsabout how I should deal with
this.
You know I mean like I alwaysjust make sure that I seem like
I'm not fazed by this thing andso you know I mean right.
Nights they want me to seemphased burst and that sure as
(43:15):
hell isn't what they're going toget.
And I mean like no that's right.
You can't get emotion because ifthey're making it personal then
they're obviously after anegative response.
I mean so the best thing you cando is just let it slide over
you.
Speaker 7 (43:28):
Yeah yeah yeah.
I've had plenty of instanceswhere I've just sort of found a
polite way to say look Icompletely respect your opinion.
It is yours.
You are in some cases it's aclient you're saying look you're
the one taking all the risk hereI get it.
You got to draw a stake in thesand that you're comfortable
with.
Draw a line in the sand put astake in the sand that you're
comfortable with.
At the same time just understandthat with all due respect I
(43:51):
can't go there with you becauseI don't believe I don't believe
based on my experience that thisis going to end well.
OK.
OK.
I could be wrong about that.
I hope that I'm wrong aboutthat.
But this is sort of the placewhere you go your way and I go
mine and you're right if yourespond emotionally in any way
(44:12):
there's just there's nothinggood that comes from that.
I also find that that approachif you're calm sometimes just
the way that you respond willcause people to rethink what
they're saying and it doesn'talways happen right away.
A lot of times you get an emailor a call to three days later
because your reaction surprisedthe other person is sort of
caught him off guard a littlebit and then I think well wow he
(44:34):
took that really well.
Speaker 6 (44:37):
Why.
Why.
What don't I know.
Speaker 13 (44:39):
You know like yeah I think you're totally right that
not only good things can comefrom reacting that way.
And I mean yes if you'll everget to opening further avenues
for yourself and just keep yourcool.
You know I mean like you saidthat only good things can come
from that whether it's they justdecide that they're bored of
(45:03):
getting personal with you orwhether they actually stop and
think hang on maybe I'm notgiving this guy enough credit.
Like regardless yes.
Yeah.
Good things can come from that.
Speaker 7 (45:13):
Now I agree with you I think that's good right.
So I would like to hit you withwhat we call some hotseat
questions.
OK.
So first question is this whatare you.
Speaker 16 (45:26):
Not very good at one of my not very good acts and not
obsessing over what they saw.
Because you know with Robertprototyping and getting things
out the door as quickly aspossible and moving on to the
next step.
I find it quite hard to move onif I'm not entirely happy with
(45:48):
it.
I mean yeah he just got to dowhat you got to do and possibly
work on you I like I secretlysometimes come back so upset so
it's like just before bedtimebursts.
Yeah.
Like on a day like you knowofficially say goodbye.
Speaker 14 (46:06):
Hopefully it does the best I can.
You know I mean so Europe saysyes pretty much it's almost
perfectionism that I sufferfrom.
Speaker 15 (46:14):
You know I mean like some some of the people on your
facebook group all agree theslogan on my Web site used to be
if you're going to do somethingdo it properly and you know
essentially that could bemisconstrued in you know saying
that oh this guy's obsessed withprofessionalism you know I mean
so I obsessed over that and wentand changed it.
So yeah there you go.
Speaker 7 (46:36):
Do you ever see the movie it's John Turturro and the
guys it's called Mac therethey're contractors are Italian
construction workers go tohouses.
Right.
I related to this movie becauseI grew up you know construction
come to both sides of a family.
My father is an incrediblecarpenter and he and his
brothers are deteriorated to thenth degree.
(46:56):
And in this movie his fathertaught the three of them
something growing up when theylearned how to build houses.
He said there's two ways to dothings.
There's the right way and my wayand they're the same thing.
Speaker 6 (47:11):
Hey I got such a charge out of this movie because
that's kind of how I grew up.
Speaker 7 (47:17):
I mean that was never said explicitly but it's sort of
the same thing and you carrythat.
And part of the reason I'mlaughing so much when you when
you say all this is because I'mvery much the same way.
OK.
Letting go letting go of that.
That nth degree of perfectionyou know like that that extra
pixel or whatever it is that's ahard one.
But it's good that you openlyadmit it it's good that we're
(47:39):
having and open you know therapysession here.
Yep Toia where we can we canovercome our obstacles.
Precisely.
Next question.
Tell me something that you thinkis true about you X or design or
are anything quite frankly thatalmost nobody agrees with you
on.
Speaker 16 (47:57):
I was hoping that you would.
You were going to ask this fromgroup.
Speaker 13 (48:01):
I actually went and wrote down when it comes to you
X if you consider everything youknow that we've I said earlier
to you about you know design isabout people in general
audiences or indeed users.
And I I believe there's aargument to be made that you X
really is just design but youknow proper design you know.
Speaker 14 (48:24):
It's from the ground up it's the way it should be
like you know you should alwaysconduct yourself in
consideration with who the enduser is or who the audience is
obviously of course businessgoals as well.
You have to meet but name.
Yeah.
Arguably I'm like if I had it myway I would rebrand X as just
(48:44):
design like you just pressed allmy buttons.
I don't find a pun on yourFacebook page all day long go
for saying the same thing andyou know understandably Fair
enough.
It's just when I got to gripswith for you really is it just.
Yeah.
Like I was sat there thinking tomyself Hang on this is just
(49:05):
design like this is what designis supposed to be degree.
I mean like you're taking itfrom planning through to the
ideation and cetera etc..
You know I'm like yeah this isthis is just proper design for
me.
Speaker 7 (49:19):
I totally agree totally agree.
And that's and you may haveheard me say that that's my
thing.
Design is design design designis design is design.
I quote Massam or Vanille allthe time because that was his
whole thing.
Right.
One of his most famous quotes isIf you can design one thing well
you can design anything.
Well I firmly believe that.
You're either paying attentionto what people want what they
(49:41):
need what they expect whatthey're able to use all the
constraints there are around theproblem solving discipline.
We know as design if you'redoing that properly you are
doing in effect a lot of theseother sort of subdisciplines
that we've invented.
You are providing goodinformation architecture you are
thinking about language andcommunication you are thinking
about what visual signals getsent you know you are thinking
(50:05):
about the psychology of theperson you are thinking about
usability principles.
So I'm I'm with you I'm inviolent agreement with you there
it's all the same stuff to meyeah.
You know it really really is Ithink the problem is a lot of
people see design in a verysmall box you know in terms of
what it is and what it means andit's not really accurate so
much.
(50:25):
Well scratch one out for me yeahyeah let's do one more got one
word or phrase do you say.
Speaker 6 (50:31):
Way too much process for us like I'm obsessed with
you know the process.
Speaker 14 (50:41):
I mean I'm always asking OK what if the client
says to me I do this I justautomatically even if I don't
say it's the Mouloud I think tomyself why and that are masking
OK.
Why what's the what's theproblem that we're trying to
solve or what's the businessgoal here or what is it that we
(51:02):
have established about the usesthat leads us to this success.
You know like I just have thisobsession with if I push a so
then I need to be able tojustify that direction on
pushing in a minute.
So yeah you go.
My most used word is probablyprocess.
It's a good word misuse.
Speaker 6 (51:20):
I would say I'm going to call my next dog process for
us the process career ticketprocess that my dogs are going
to be like Are you Doctor.
Yeah right.
Well we are at the end of ourtime.
Speaker 7 (51:37):
Sir I cannot thank you enough likewise for a truly
enjoyable conversation I reallyenjoy talking to you and
hopefully we'll have you back atsome point.
Speaker 14 (51:46):
I'm here as long as soon as you need me.
Just gimme gimme a shout.
You know I like hopefully youfound the things I said useful.
Hopefully none of what I saidwas complete and not some
nonsensical.
Speaker 6 (51:59):
A lot of us are nice because now we would have
stopped a lot sooner if that wasthe case.
Oh okay cool thanks for yourhonesty.
Speaker 7 (52:07):
No problem I wish you well in your job search and I
hope you will continue to updateus on your progress.
Speaker 14 (52:13):
Definitely will do.
Thank you very much for beingthere for me.
You and your all your followers.
You know I mean like has faredmuch appreciated.
It's great to have somebody likeyou in the community.
You're welcome I'm honored to beof service.
Gay rights is something that wecan just do the same.
We'll speak against say.
Take our YouTube goodbye.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
That wraps up this edition of making us work.
Thanks for listening and I hopehearing these stories provide
some useful perspective andencouragement along with a
reminder that you're not alone.
Before I go I want you to knowyou can find shows and links to
the things mentioned during ourconversation by visiting give
good you X.com slash podcast.
(52:56):
You'll also find links to moreUS resources on the web and
social media along with ways tocontact me if you're interested
in sharing your own story here.
Speaker 17 (53:05):
Until next time this is Joe Anatoliy reminding you
that it's people like you whomake us work.
Hello and welcome to making us work to give you
podcast.
I'm your host Jonah Toli and ourfocus here is on folks like you
doing a real often unglamorousUKCS work in the real world.
You'll hear about theirstruggles their successes and
their journey to and through thetrenches of product design
development and of course userexperience.
(00:31):
My guest today is Leon stride.
Leon has been working in and onthe web since 2008 journeying
between visual design and frontend development frequently
turning his hand to print basedgraphic design as well.
No although he's somewhat new tothe X design community and is
looking for a new job it becomesimmediately apparent that Leon's
(00:53):
drive commitment and dedicationto the design process and design
thinking in general infuseseverything that he does and from
talking with him.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I think it's also very obvious that he would be a
valuable asset to anyorganization.
So without further ado here's myconversation with Leon Strydom
on making us work so first andforemost how are you.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Yeah I'm good.
I'm just really busy trying tofind work.
Read writing about 10 coverletters every day.
And you know some people mightthink what's coverlet says who
cares but they're quiteimportant especially in our
industry.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
You have to show that you actually that you actually
genuinely interested in thecompany that youre applying to
and not just in finding a jobwherever that may be you know.
Speaker 5 (01:43):
So every cover letter is a tailored piece of
Shakespearean beauty.
Speaker 6 (01:49):
So its well as good as it should be quite honestly
because that's one of themistakes that I think I see.
Speaker 7 (01:58):
I see way too much in that you know candidates and the
same form letter to everyorganization they are talking
to.
And you know the person on theother end feels like all right I
know that you sent this to 40people.
Why is it that you want to workfor us and that's really what
they want to know exactly.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
Yeah exactly.
That's why I'm precisely whatI'm trying to avoid Janai mom
always try to match the languagethat they use in their job ads
and you know.
Yes.
Look at the company is as wellto find something to talk about
when it comes to why it is youwant to work for them and
particularly.
Speaker 8 (02:32):
So yeah what are the things you look at out of
curiosity when you're doingresearch on an organization or
why can use this latest one thatI did as an example.
I went in search.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
You know I look at their Web site and a lot of
companies have a section calledculture or something very
similar.
And you know it normally talksabout women there you'd normally
see what their values are likethe type of social events that
they have for their teams andstuff like that and anything
(03:01):
that they talk about in terms ofthe economy or the environment.
You know that's gold rightthere.
You know there's loads of stuffthat you can elaborate on when
it comes to that sort of thing.
But this latest one denies themislay latest place actually
have their own design process.
(03:21):
And you know I just me being allabout process I just you know
right bang.
That's why I'm going to talk tothem about and you know send
them a nice little gift ofsomebody.
Speaker 5 (03:32):
I think it was Oh gosh yes Nicki Minaj like saying
wow to the camera and you know Ijust added the text the name of
their design process in textileonto the gif and send them off
to them.
And they said right thanks.
And they immediately go back tome said thank you.
We'll be in touch hopefullyarrange a interview.
(03:54):
So you know it goes to show manthat kind of thing pays off.
Speaker 7 (03:59):
Well yeah you made an impression obviously.
And look that's the name of thegame.
OK.
Every recruiter every hiringmanager I mean myself and I had
my own company when I washiring.
When I've done for clients whatI think a lot of people forget
is that the volume ofapplications and resumes and
cover letters and e-mails andinquiries that the people doing
(04:22):
the hiring get is enormous.
Yeah it's an enormous so one ofthe first things that you do as
you go through and you'relooking for something that jumps
out at you immediately becauseyou can't spend the time that
you would like.
With all of it right it soundslike that's very much the
approach that your take.
Speaker 5 (04:37):
Yeah no.
It's the age old story.
These recruiters have how manyapplications to wade through.
So you know the ones that standout are the ones that are going
to get looked at.
Speaker 7 (04:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
So out of curiosity what led youto the point where now you're
looking for a new gig.
Tell me that story right.
Speaker 8 (04:56):
OK.
I can tell this story withoutgoing into my my timeline.
You know that's OK.
Let's do it.
I graduated in 2007 afterstudying graphic communications.
All openly admit that you know.
This was during my early 20swhen I was still you know I was
a totally different person backthen I was of course in the
(05:19):
wrong frame of mind to be doingsomething as serious as a
degree.
You know and like if I was if Iwas to do it again now it would
be such a different story butregardless of that regardless.
Basically.
Long story short I had a degreethat I could put on my CV and
you know that got my foot insome doors.
(05:39):
And in 2001.
What was that degree GraphicCommunication.
It's basically graphic design.
Speaker 5 (05:45):
But you know you delve into the four main
pathways that you can applygraphic design and like branding
product design.
When I say product design I'mtalking about packaging you
know.
Yeah.
Like boxes and cartons and stufflike that and all the products.
Digital products but there was adigital pathway as well which is
(06:06):
why did we spend most of ourtime in Dobies flash which was
Macromedia Flash then.
Yes.
So that's why I studied and thatled to 2008.
And mind you before I carry onthe 2008 was of course when the
economic downturn was in fulleffect the banks had just made
(06:29):
massive Boubou and the pressurewas felt all around us really
like especially in the placesoutside of major cities like
London which was where I wasbased I was based in the
suburbs.
In 2008 I landed a nice littlerole with a marketing company
who mostly did work for churchesand ministries and stuff like
(06:51):
that.
And everything from print toprint Filmon as in you know they
get to get the stuff deliveredand stuff like that.
But they took me on mainlybecause I had experience with
web.
You know I was able to designand build basic websites and
that was an avenue that they hadnot explored.
(07:13):
A lot of it you know I mean thiswas during the days when I E6
untransparent pinioned GS werestill a thing.
Speaker 7 (07:20):
AMIN Yeah yeah yeah I mean those are still very early
days here.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
And you know the big names like Jared spel and who
else Simon Collison had onlyjust started evangelizing CSSA
back then.
You know I mean so that's justto give everybody a rough clue
as to when we're talking abouthere.
So yeah I was doing both web andprint in 2009 mostly mostly web
(07:47):
because I was the only one.
And you know back then I had noclue about user experience.
But still that role led up toabout 2010 when I joined a
company that specialized mainlyin web and yet still again the
word X was not really inanybody's vocabulary there.
(08:09):
And that's some of that storyled all the way up to 2015.
Believe it or not.
And so yeah in 2015 was reallythe wakeup call for me because
you know we were doing work thatreally facilitated or at least
you know would have thrived onspecializing in X you know
(08:32):
because a lot of the work thatwe would do in worse recruitment
sites so heavy exchange ofpersonal details and stuff like
that.
And you know there was noassessing the process they use
had to go through or anythinglike that.
Anything that they struggle withit was initially just a case of
why OK we're going to buy thesewordpress plugins and we're just
(08:55):
going to let them do theirthing.
We're not going to worry aboutit.
All right.
Total Hochstein out of.
Yeah basically.
And you know more a case ofusability as well because you
know thinking back to it therewere sites where you know the
guy who was in charge just saidright do this and I was like
really you want them to do allof this just to get them out
(09:16):
from you.
And I learned just to name arough example.
Speaker 5 (09:19):
And yeah that was my story in 2016 I enrolled in a
online course that gave us thegave us a thorough introduction
to your facts.
And here I am trying to thatended about two months ago.
Now I'm full fledged into my jobsearch interest.
Speaker 7 (09:41):
So did you.
Did you leave that organizationor did they fall on hard times
or what happened.
Speaker 5 (09:47):
Bouffe relief they fell on hard times and you know
just prior to that they they leta whole bunch of us go.
Me included.
In fact I think I was the verylast one that they had said
goodbye to before shutting theirdoors.
You know.
So it goes to show that I don'tI don't think they were
(10:07):
providing any real value totheir client base.
Speaker 9 (10:10):
I mean one of their clients were actually recruiters
for the creative industry andthey came to us asking for
something on a no groundbreakingand thinking back the only what
they were really asking was goodyou x x so they probably didn't
call it that.
Speaker 7 (10:30):
And you know my bet would be the organization didn't
really have the language tospeak to there either.
Was this company verytechnologically driven very sort
of I.T.
programming development Trivettor wasn't it wasn't a design for
it was kind of neither.
Speaker 5 (10:47):
I'm going to sound very cynical here but you know
it's really the closest to thetruth I can possibly fathom.
But it was basically false.
Four people came together andsaid Right we were in the
recruitment industry.
Design looks like something thatanybody can do.
(11:08):
I know it's something thateverybody has so you know why
not let's let's do it ourselvesand yes they just thought OK
well we need a web developer orsomething.
So and that's when I came intothe picture.
They rang me up and they evenyou know mis advertised the job
to me they said web designer andI don't know about anybody else.
(11:29):
But if someone says web designit's me is not saying what the
other you and I would like.
Speaker 6 (11:35):
Well of course not.
Speaker 7 (11:36):
But you know they don't know what they don't know.
So to them that the term meanssomething completely different.
Speaker 10 (11:41):
Yeah I tried my best to push because you know one of
these four people and he had hisPaet his team working in the
house so you know in thebackground of working you'd have
people on the phone to end userssaying like you know.
Right yeah.
Give us a call or come in for aninterview stuff like that and I
(12:01):
don't know.
Like am I wrong for thinking.
Bang that's gold right there.
We've got the perfectopportunity to talk to our end
users and I do the best work wepossibly can.
I mean of course how much effortwould have been to just add in a
question or two about the Website and anything that the
funding Astley about it youknow.
Speaker 7 (12:22):
Yeah I tell you what I'm curious about hearing you
say that.
How much of that impetus whenyou think in yourself OK why
don't we talk to these peoplethey're actually using it.
They have insight that we need.
You know this is sort of aperfect leap in logic.
How much of that was driven byyour background in more
traditional design versus yourexposure to us.
(12:42):
Was it one more than the otherwas it both.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
I think it was both because I think you know I think
the line that separates us andjust normal design is very thin.
Because you know essentially Isee design as being about people
you know like whether it's theend users or just audiences you
know like I mean you take thepeople who are going to be
(13:09):
consuming your work intoconsideration and you proceed
accordingly.
I mean everything from typefacetoys to you know the
functionality that you push foryou know it's all down to the
people that youre designing forI'd say Amen.
And so in a way it was both thatinfluenced me wanting to push
(13:29):
for them to talk to the users.
Speaker 10 (13:30):
You know I mean you know at the end of the day if I
had to say it was one or theother I'd say it was just my
design instincts you knowbecause we are like we're just
designing for the guy who's incharge here.
You know he's saying do this andthat and you know OK fine you're
paying the bills but geez howsuccessful is this Web site of
yours I mean like you've gotyour job listings right.
(13:52):
The bottom of the page.
Whereas you know they should beat the top of the page for
example and I bet.
Yeah it was my design instinctsI say.
Speaker 7 (14:01):
And I think that misunderstanding has been around
because I started outinternational design as well
right.
My my degree was in graphicdesign.
I think the struggle there we'retalking about right that the
sort of struggle where you'reconfronted with stakeholders or
business folks or clients orwhoever it is that sort of you
can see where they need to gobut they can't get out of their
own way to get there.
(14:22):
That same struggle has beengoing on since before the
Internet right says when graphicdesign was just graphic design
and people who built softwaredidn't want nothing to do with
designers.
I think it was the same fight.
You know you're doing marketingmatures or an advertising
campaign or TV or radio orwhatever it is and it's the same
struggle right where people aresaying well no I want this.
(14:44):
You say well why do you wantthat.
Why is it going to land this waywith people why is it going to
affect people and they don'tknow and they're not willing to
go there.
They're just sort of want whatthey want.
I mean make the logo bigger andI'm like OK yeah yeah yeah
exactly how big the logo gonnaeffect.
Speaker 10 (15:01):
You know usability like you know how's it going to
make your site more usable andmore while useful.
Speaker 7 (15:08):
You know I mean I always had the sense that it's
the same fight now because it'sthe end of the day what is this
doing for you.
What's it saying to people whatit's allowing them or motivating
them to do.
And then how is it helping youas organization.
I think these questions andthese issues and these struggles
simply sort of change theirshape and size.
(15:30):
But at their core they are thesame the same struggles.
Speaker 5 (15:35):
Yeah I think there's more than I you.
Maybe it's something else but Icould swear that's something to
do with personal taste and youknow Pride and stuff like that I
mean it's their money and youknow at the end of the day they
want to make sure that theyleave their mark on it seeing as
it's their baby I suppose.
But gees like when pride comesin the way of common sense and
(15:58):
stuff like that the ninth makeonly some people able to see
that it could be detrimental.
Speaker 7 (16:05):
Yeah.
Have you ever had a situationwhere you know you were in one
of those sort of battles andthat person whether it be a
client or a stakeholder orsomebody internal turn their
ship around turn the Chaseropinion and said you know what.
You're right about that I reallydidn't think about this.
And you know where they wereable to put themselves aside.
(16:25):
Have you had any experienceslike that.
Speaker 11 (16:27):
Yeah.
This last position that Imention in 2015 with you know
the recruitment sites that wewere working on I think there
were a couple of times where Ipoint to something out like for
and the example that I usedearlier was this one site had
all the job listings at the verybottom of the page.
(16:48):
And mind you this is quite along page loads of scrolling
involved Nidetch.
Speaker 9 (16:53):
I did push for those job listings to be moved up the
page saw thing and you know theperson who was signing off on
the design turned around andsaid Yeah you're right.
You know why you're right sir.
Do I like if there was no usetesting involved either.
You know like I tested I wentundercover and tested it with
(17:14):
some of my friends and you knowall of that on off the record
stuff is you know you might aswell not bother bringing that to
the table you know.
Because if it's not officialsigned off by them then they
don't really care.
Sourcing but that was one battlethat I won where I said right.
This is what what are you whatyou used to do.
(17:35):
They said apply for jobs and Ireplied with.
Right.
Make that prominent stay ofcenter stage.
You know and they yeah they theysaw it my way.
Speaker 7 (17:44):
How often do you think that's a case of somebody
in your position with a designeror a you X person whoever.
How many times do you think thatnot happening is a case of the
designer or the your expertsimply never asking the
question.
Speaker 5 (18:00):
Goodness from my personal experience anyway.
That happened quite often in theorganization.
I was with because when I afterso many times of trying and just
having it shot down it sort ofsets like a baseline standard or
at least a consensus that youknow.
Right.
Don't bother.
Don't bother trying to makearguments like that because we
(18:23):
know how we're going aboutplaying our game.
So just don't bother you just awaste of time.
But maybe it varies based on theorganization but the place where
I was at that was certainly thenorm.
Speaker 9 (18:37):
You know I mean so most of the time so people just
give up.
Yeah.
Like I mean the only solution Icould think of was to I don't
know do gorilla testing withoutanybody knowing and just saying
to them Look I've got thesenumbers here on paper.
If you're going to argue withthose then that's fine.
But for what it's worth histhings are actually looking like
(19:00):
you know this is the result ofyour design decisions that you
made me implement sort of thing.
Obviously not in those wordsbecause then they were just
fine.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
Yeah you have to be diplomatic isn't my problem is
that I was always going at thesaw a problem alone and I so I
have no benchmark by which tosay right OK.
That's how they handled it orthat's how you should approach.
You know and that's what works.
So yes like I've only got myexperiences to go by here.
Speaker 7 (19:29):
You know I mean did their opinion of you or the way
that they interacted with youchanged to a degree after that
moment.
Speaker 9 (19:36):
How you know how you're like oh I don't know if
this is just the type of peoplethey were socially or like you
know whether this is initially astandard of professionalism.
But yeah they just felt likethis anyway it felt like they
saw me as argumentative anddisruptive and stuff like that.
(19:56):
Not disruptive in the word thatwe know in the world.
You know designing disruptionand stuff like that.
Yet just purely disruptive wasthe workflow and you know
detrimental most even though yougave them something that was
there was a definite positivechange.
Speaker 5 (20:14):
If I do say so myself fortunately like tonight it's a
horror story to say the least.
Hell.
It is what it is.
Speaker 7 (20:24):
Yeah and there are a lot of them and I think it's a
hard line to walk right whereyou say to yourself are I on one
hand.
I believe in this so I have tospeak up I have to say something
about it I have to do somethingabout it.
And you know you guys have allheard this from me prior.
You're robbing everybody in theroom of what you're capable of
and your value if you don'tspeak up at the same time you
(20:46):
also have to know when you'rebanging your head against a wall
and you're continuing to injureyourself and nothing's going to
change.
Certainly.
Did you change or did you changeyour approach after that just
for your own personal sanity.
But my approach to evangelizingthe users in terms of you know
if you if you're sort of gettingbeat up after that or you know
(21:08):
now you're the enemy.
The change your approach at alljust to get through the day.
Speaker 12 (21:14):
Yeah by that point I mean the the writing was on the
wall.
Speaker 9 (21:19):
And I'm like wow.
Actually there was there were afew separate pieces of writing
on the wall one of which wasright.
You're not going to win here.
So just do what you got to dobecause I mean you've got bills
to pay.
So just do what they tell youto.
I mean of course it wasn't thelong after that that you know I
sort of woke up and thought.
(21:40):
Right.
To find a different job.
You know I mean.
Speaker 7 (21:42):
Yeah.
And it sounds like things sortof imploded anyway so that you
were heading that directionregardless.
Speaker 9 (21:47):
Yeah I was I was in the middle of packing my things
and then I was like right.
Can we speak to you for asecond.
So I was I sort of missed mychance of legitimately handing
in my notice before theyactually took the liberty in
making me redundant which youknow I'm it's is what it is I
(22:09):
finished crying about that along time ago.
Speaker 7 (22:12):
So yeah Well there's you know the old cliche is
always when one door closesanother one opens and we all
laugh and we were all our eyes.
But you know as someone who hasheaded towards 50 it really is
the truth.
The river goes where it needs togo.
For the most part so it's alwaystempting to look back and spend
a lot of time sort of gnashingyour teeth about things that are
(22:34):
taking place prior but there'sreally no value in it and you're
headed where you need to beheaded I think I think so I'd
say.
Speaker 13 (22:40):
And that's one of the handful of positives that I
can take away from that place.
And I hope day it set me off ondedicate dedicating myself
towards gaining my new skillsand really appreciating what a
use a sense of design approachis all about and I really
orientating my efforts aroundthat you know.
(23:03):
And like whereas before I wasjust following the way that I
was always doing things thatyeah the bowl games different
different now and it's hardgetting a job.
But still like I'm still verymuch optimist as optimistic as I
was when I first started my jobsearch.
Speaker 7 (23:21):
So that's fantastic.
Yeah.
What's what's keeping youmotivated.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
I just said I believe I stand a chance.
Speaker 5 (23:26):
I mean you know I appreciate that it's a
competitive market and you knowthis time of year especially
here in the UK anyway is reallybusy and all that.
Speaker 9 (23:36):
So you know obviously progress is going to be slow
but.
And also if I'm going to beblunt about this anywhere is
better than where I was lasttime around this.
Speaker 7 (23:47):
Now I understand that.
I think that's I don't thinkthere's anything wrong with that
statement.
Speaker 9 (23:52):
Yeah sorry like I'm going to Graun myself the
opportunity to get out mytestosterone.
Speaker 7 (23:56):
Right.
So obviously mean you feel likeyou learned a lot of lessons you
learned a lot of things aboutyourself going forward.
What kind of role in yourperfect ideal world what kind of
role do you see yourself in.
Speaker 14 (24:10):
I'm off.
Got my hopes set on really ganginteractions.
Speaker 12 (24:15):
I really you know more so product is the more
product design oriented side ofthings where you know you work
out the functionality the flowbad the use of flows and you
know the general architecture ofthings and my by field I've got
an actual skill or at least anatural eye for that side of
things and after I've gonethrough I've got visual design
(24:38):
flair but obviously you knowthere's always going to be
somebody better than you at thatI feel yeah.
Speaker 13 (24:45):
When it comes to interaction design and the more
sort of fundamental layer ofthings then yeah.
Like I've got something to offerthe world.
Speaker 7 (24:53):
And I mean what pieces of that do you enjoy
doing the most.
Speaker 13 (24:57):
That's an interesting question.
More architectural side ofthings.
I do feel like I've got anactual knack for information
architecture and really workingout the you know how things flow
from from screen to screen andyou know what's what's most
important to users and stuff.
Speaker 7 (25:18):
So I mean what's interesting to me about that is
that I know a lot of people andI keep going back to this theme
I get that but I know a lot ofpeople who came up in
traditional design OK andthey're very good visual design
and some of them are flat outexcellent visuals.
And then as they go on in theircareers especially with a
proliferation of all thingsdigital they find that the
(25:41):
behind the scenes parts ofinteraction design or
information architecture or youknow what constitutes good user
experience all the sort of youknow white boardings strategic
information heavy work wherewe're not talking about what's
on the screen per se anymore.
You talked about the psychologyof people.
They just they dive into withboth feet in it.
(26:03):
It gives them this focus andthis lift that they didn't have
previously and I'm alwayscurious about what the
connection is there.
Because honest to god I know alot of people who are really
excellent at the non visualnon-technical work that we're
talking about here.
Speaker 9 (26:22):
And almost all of them started in traditional
visual design and that is aninteresting thing because
yourself working backwards ifyoure thinking about it and then
as an explicit design processyou know I mean like this
tossing out higher up in theprocess and then you know sort
of go backwards in terms ofRibe.
(26:44):
All my skills are later on butI'm going to try and apply
myself to where it all startsoff.
I suppose that's where I'mcoming from West Africa or a
similar story to say to telleven you know because while I
studied and my exposure so farreally was towards the visual
end product and I and that'swhat you did for me as well.
(27:05):
Yeah that's why you did me.
I was really wanting to get myhands into the process.
You know I might get involvedwhen things really start.
First off I make sure that theproduct that we're going to
produce Britney has good valueto the world.
Speaker 7 (27:22):
Right.
Right.
I mean it is sort of workingbackwards in that all of a
sudden you find at least for me.
You sort of find great joy andsatisfaction in saying yeah but
why are we doing that.
You know we give them up tothem.
It's it's you sort of think youknow you mentioned being young
major in college.
You have a different mindset.
(27:43):
You're a different person whenyou're your 20s than you are in
your 30s and your 40s and Ithink you start thinking about
it differently where as beforewhen you are younger you have an
awful lot of confidence in whatyou're doing.
You believe that you're right noone else in the room is wrong.
Speaker 6 (27:57):
At least I did not remember.
Speaker 7 (28:01):
And then it's interesting you get to the point
where you feel like it's a lotmore interesting to say well
wait a minute why is this theright thing to do and why does
this matter and why do we thinkthis is the right solution.
And to a lot of people that'slike that's the equivalent of
watching paint dry.
Yes.
You know.
Speaker 6 (28:21):
So.
So here we are we're obsessedwith what's wrong with us Leon
and I like this.
Speaker 11 (28:28):
It just comes naturally and that's why I
thought you know I should stickwith this direction.
Couple of times I have thoughtright.
Should I maybe not become aplumber or something else
instead.
The nicest this national naturalinquisitiveness or strive for
really been there since from theinception that I've made know.
(28:52):
And if you take my cooking mystory about my previous employer
into consideration you knowthat's exactly what happened.
Speaker 13 (28:59):
You know I was like why do you want all of this
stuff before the before thestuff that the user if it came
to your site for you and I likeyou know reasons reasons reasons
why I don't want people todefend their reasoning for their
decisions even sorry but do giveme some insight as to why this
(29:20):
is useful and that I thinkthere's part of that that can be
taught.
Speaker 7 (29:23):
Like for instance you know where I went to design
school the Y was huge.
All right and I got my asshanded to me several times by
professors where I presentsomething that I thought was
visually brilliant.
And they said OK here's who youraudience is.
This has nothing to do with whatthey expect or what they're used
to or what they will interpretproperly.
Right.
So that was hammered into me.
(29:44):
That it has to be appropriateand has to be relevant has to be
speaking language has to beculturally relevant in some way.
So that's certainly part of it.
But I often feel like there'ssomething intrinsic in the
character in the genetic makeupof those of us who do this work
where that's the compelling partof this equation.
(30:07):
Right.
It's just it just seems theolder I get.
I wonder if you are part of someof that can be taught.
You can certainly learn themechanics and you can learn you
know what to look at whether youcare about it or not is another
thing entirely.
Speaker 9 (30:19):
Yeah.
Oh just repeat myself and sayyou know Epov a part of my sense
of empathy for example you knowit just comes to me naturally.
And I like I just can't help butwonder about what is whether or
not what is I'm doing isactually going to be useful or
exceed their expectations.
Speaker 12 (30:40):
You know like yeah just everything seems like a
problem to be solved sort ofthing.
And I mean yeah.
Speaker 7 (30:47):
And I think that's what separates great designers
from good designers is whatseparates people who truly excel
at user experience architecturedesign information architecture
or anything from folks who arejust sort of you know have a
passing interest but neverreally get beyond being an order
taker.
You know that's the key.
(31:08):
And I think I'd be interested inyour take in this based on what
you've seen so far my personalbelief is that to get where you
need to go in this profession.
OK.
All things we're talking about.
You're willing to ask hardquestions being sort of a
natural problem solver alwayssort of fixating on the on the
(31:28):
why is this appropriate.
I think it's required but I alsothink it's a harder way to go.
To get to the point in yourcareer where you need to be you
know where you're where you'rehappy and fulfilled and you do
the kind of work you want to doand you're getting sort of the
respect and attention andcollaboration quite frankly that
(31:48):
you're after.
Have any any any thoughts aroundthat.
Speaker 15 (31:51):
Well from personal experience I think my main
problem was just the way thatperhaps how I would have myself
and I have my gun.
No but it's certainly a skillthat you have to learn.
Take care.
McAuliff feedback properly.
Mike nothing's personal.
As you know if I think that avisual piece of visual design is
(32:14):
just not good enough then youknow I'm going to say look this
needs to be reconsidered and youknow more often than not.
The creator of that piece ofwork has you know invested an
emotional part of himself andyou know that is always that
part of them is always thecasualty when it comes to
feedback that's anything lessthan absolutely positive.
(32:37):
You know I'm sure.
So yeah.
And I think that's you knowthat's like a token of what it
means to be unprofessional.
You know and like you need to beemotionally detached from
whatever it is you're doing.
So that is I mean you knowwhat's the point in being so
emotionally attached to yourwork.
(32:57):
Like if it's if it gets rejectedthen you're just gonna feel down
about it you know and yeah thatdoes nobody any good.
But I digress.
Speaker 7 (33:05):
I suppose no.
I think it's perfectly on topic.
I mean you're talking abouttaking things personally.
Were you in that boat yourself.
Speaker 15 (33:13):
Let me think back if I cos I suppose when I first got
out I mean you know we go.
We had enough exercise at thisuniversity I mean like we had
full on design critiques and youknow we yeah yeah we got sort of
conditioned into being able tohandle feedback.
(33:33):
And I like because I've been oneof my mottos is there's no
negative feedback.
The only negative feedback isyou know the feedback that's not
useful.
I don't know if you've noticedthis but whenever I post the
piece of work on your Facebookpage asking for feedback I
always use the words pleaseshoot this down for me because I
(33:54):
want it I want it to be rippedapart like that's where I find
the most useful feedback.
Generally you know I like I needto know where this design is
failing.
You know I mean like yes sure.
Tell me what you like.
I would much rather hear whatyou don't like.
Speaker 9 (34:10):
You know I mean and I used the words shoot it down so
that people can feel comfortableenough in being perfectly honest
with me.
You know I like because nobody'sgoing to hurt my feelings.
But obviously trying toempathize with them in a town
like yeah they don't want tohave feelings so they're going
to try and be as hard about aspossible.
Speaker 7 (34:28):
So you know I Yeah and you can see where I mean I
notice so when people ask forfeedback the way they ask for it
tells me whether they've beenthrough a college sort of
critique curriculum or not.
I mean you could sort of see itbecause the people who have are
always the ones who are sayinglook tell me the unvarnished
truth.
You're not going to hurt myfeelings.
I need to know.
(34:49):
And I think that's reallyvaluable.
And I wonder if there aren'tother professional tangential
professions around productdevelopment OK that maybe don't
get that in a collegeenvironment.
I don't know one way or theother but I'm always curious
about it because I think there'sa defensiveness that plays into
(35:09):
a lot of roles related toproduct development.
It sort of makes me think thatwhen they get into a real role
it's the first time they've everexperienced real criticism.
Real feedback real constructive.
I don't mean you know people whoare making personal attacks but
it always seems like it's veryfresh to people because they get
hurt.
You know no matter no matter howit comes across yet.
Speaker 11 (35:31):
And you mentioned their feedback that just comes
from as a personal attack saynow I regard that Ibai I totally
disregard that whenever wheneverI get subjected to it.
But I do regard that as uselessfeedback.
You know I mean I don't think itis feedback it's all like you
know one comments like you knowthere's no enough contrast or
(35:53):
you know the message is wrong.
A while back I posted up a logoon your Facebook page which I
confess I was quite fond of.
But it got shut down and it wasbecause the messaging was
fundamentally wrong.
So yeah like that.
And that was useful.
I mean I was like yeah shamebecause I really did like that
(36:14):
logo.
Boom.
You know I don't want to put thewrong messaging across.
You know what that's like.
That's disastrous right.
And I feel that in that veryinstance I grew as a designer.
That was something that fromhenceforth paid a lot more
attention to.
You know I don't know.
I think there's a pattern withyou know the more visual
(36:36):
deliverables those get the moreemotion gets attached as well.
You know I mean like if asitemap have done is wrong you
know as I shake it off.
No problem.
You know if it's a logo thatI've thought about really hard
and really liked the look ofthem you know is just like me.
But with anything else likeinteractions and stuff like that
(36:58):
that probably not as good asthat could be doesn't faze me
it's all interesting.
Speaker 7 (37:02):
So is that more about the visual nature of the result
or is it more about the factthat this is a more tangible
real end result.
And now it's sort of gettingreal and your sort of personal
attachment changes.
The closer we get to reality.
What do you think that is.
Speaker 13 (37:18):
I think it's both of those.
Yes sure.
Cause there's an element ofwhites were essentially talking
about art in a way when we'retalking about visual design sort
sourcing you know I mean so it'syou know a part of the design
are all artists self-expressiongoes into it.
You know I mean so it's sort ofa part of them that gets
(37:38):
rejected when things aren'tquite as they should be.
But also you know it's more on aconstructive level as well when
you know it's more of a it's afunctional piece of work that
needs to perform in a certainway that once you find it within
yourself to focus on whether ornot it's actually performing and
doing what it should do andthings get easier or supposed
(38:01):
to.
It's tricky.
Not because it's constantly thisback and forth between being
expressive and being you knowmore utilitarian as well.
Speaker 7 (38:10):
And of course I mean I personally have always held
the belief OK people say it'sbusiness is not personal.
And I get that an offer comesfrom but it's kind of bullshit
to me because if you care aboutwhat you do to any degree I
really care about it really careabout the end result really care
that it's worthwhile.
You have to invest some ofyourself into it.
(38:33):
You've got to invest someemotion and some commitment and
some dedication and into it andthat is very personal.
That drive is very personal.
So I think one of the hardestthings for all of us to do as
human beings is to take thatstep back and hear the things
that you know you don't want tohear but do the hard work of
(38:55):
saying I'm going to sit here I'mgoing to listen to this and I'm
going to be open to it because Idon't care.
At the end of the day aboutbeing right being right is not
the goal here.
So on the heels of that whenyou're in these situations or
when you have been in thesesituations in the past how did
you have any I don't know sortof techniques or self talk or
(39:15):
anything that you use to try andstop yourself from just reacting
emotionally so that you can beopen to what's being said.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
That's an interesting question.
You know I suppose that sayingsomething like just growing
thick skin frou frou exposure isquite the answer they are
looking for.
But if you think that happensthat if that's worked for you
then sure I'm interested inhearing about it because I mean
yeah it's all very proportionalto the feedback.
Speaker 5 (39:44):
Like I mean in some cases yes you can tell that
something was just meant to saynice of you know something was
meant so it just sort of get outyou will most you know I mean
like I'm not the.
Sounds silly or not.
Speaker 7 (39:58):
No intent intent it's very clear in the way people
speak.
I hear you.
Speaker 12 (40:03):
Yeah I mean because I find discarded at my previous
employer because they just don'tbelieve in me.
You know that one of the peoplethat I answer to yeah they just
had in their head that you'renot a designer.
Your problem.
You're more of a technicalperson.
You know I so like henceforthI'm going to bed on mind every
(40:24):
time you submit a piece of work.
So I think you know I mean andfor me anyway it was just a case
of right.
If you want this job if you ifyou need the money enough then
you're just going off to rollwith it and just take on the
chin sourcing you know hands.
Yeah.
After a while it comes naturallyto you.
Speaker 9 (40:41):
But I just learned to always keep a straight face like
you had just simple things likethat really what is it.
Speaker 7 (40:50):
I'm laughing because I thought of something somebody
told me a long time ago in factI think I want to say it was
part of a conversation I hadwith Henry Rollins.
HENRY ROLLINS Yeah really yeahyeah yeah.
I interviewed him a couple oftimes and for several years we
had sort of a correspondencegoing back which is interesting
(41:12):
story for another time.
But one of my favorite peopleand what he said to me was when
criticism or feedback is comingat you.
And it's and you can tell thatit's personal in nature and it
has nothing to do with you knowmaking something better or you
know the topic at hand orwhatever he said the way that he
responds to it is he'll say.
(41:34):
Duly noted.
OK.
Speaker 6 (41:36):
Which to him is a very polite way of saying
exactly like you get out.
I thought that was one of themost brilliant things I've ever
heard and I probably shouldadmit this out loud but I use it
all right.
Yes.
Because for two reasons.
It's polite.
Right when you say it and nowprivate I've got to say it
(41:58):
anymore because it's going to bepublic secrets out now.
Right.
I'm not going to get away withit.
But but it's polite.
Right it comes across well.
And at the same time you get thepersonal satisfaction of sort of
knowing what you're reallysaying.
Yeah.
Speaker 16 (42:14):
Without getting a bad response.
Speaker 6 (42:17):
Yeah that's great.
That's right.
But I mean the reason I'm thereason I mention it though is
because I think that's that'spart of it is that you have to
find a way to respond.
Speaker 7 (42:28):
That's not emotional because the minute you allow
yourself to go there you've lostperiod.
Even if the person is justinterested in personally
attacking you there's nothing tobe gained from a fight right if
you go into a conversation withyour fists.
The only outcome is going to bea battle.
And it doesn't serve anybody.
Speaker 16 (42:46):
It's been duly noted my real life like this is.
Speaker 14 (42:54):
Yeah this is a very useful cause.
I mean it's really encouragingbecause and I still feel like I
wasn't far off in my assumptionsabout how I should deal with
this.
You know I mean like I alwaysjust make sure that I seem like
I'm not fazed by this thing andso you know I mean right.
Nights they want me to seemphased burst and that sure as
(43:15):
hell isn't what they're going toget.
And I mean like no that's right.
You can't get emotion because ifthey're making it personal then
they're obviously after anegative response.
I mean so the best thing you cando is just let it slide over
you.
Speaker 7 (43:28):
Yeah yeah yeah.
I've had plenty of instanceswhere I've just sort of found a
polite way to say look Icompletely respect your opinion.
It is yours.
You are in some cases it's aclient you're saying look you're
the one taking all the risk hereI get it.
You got to draw a stake in thesand that you're comfortable
with.
Draw a line in the sand put astake in the sand that you're
comfortable with.
At the same time just understandthat with all due respect I
(43:51):
can't go there with you becauseI don't believe I don't believe
based on my experience that thisis going to end well.
OK.
OK.
I could be wrong about that.
I hope that I'm wrong aboutthat.
But this is sort of the placewhere you go your way and I go
mine and you're right if yourespond emotionally in any way
(44:12):
there's just there's nothinggood that comes from that.
I also find that that approachif you're calm sometimes just
the way that you respond willcause people to rethink what
they're saying and it doesn'talways happen right away.
A lot of times you get an emailor a call to three days later
because your reaction surprisedthe other person is sort of
caught him off guard a littlebit and then I think well wow he
(44:34):
took that really well.
Speaker 6 (44:37):
Why.
Why.
What don't I know.
Speaker 13 (44:39):
You know like yeah I think you're totally right that
not only good things can comefrom reacting that way.
And I mean yes if you'll everget to opening further avenues
for yourself and just keep yourcool.
You know I mean like you saidthat only good things can come
from that whether it's they justdecide that they're bored of
(45:03):
getting personal with you orwhether they actually stop and
think hang on maybe I'm notgiving this guy enough credit.
Like regardless yes.
Yeah.
Good things can come from that.
Speaker 7 (45:13):
Now I agree with you I think that's good right.
So I would like to hit you withwhat we call some hotseat
questions.
OK.
So first question is this whatare you.
Speaker 16 (45:26):
Not very good at one of my not very good acts and not
obsessing over what they saw.
Because you know with Robertprototyping and getting things
out the door as quickly aspossible and moving on to the
next step.
I find it quite hard to move onif I'm not entirely happy with
(45:48):
it.
I mean yeah he just got to dowhat you got to do and possibly
work on you I like I secretlysometimes come back so upset so
it's like just before bedtimebursts.
Yeah.
Like on a day like you knowofficially say goodbye.
Speaker 14 (46:06):
Hopefully it does the best I can.
You know I mean so Europe saysyes pretty much it's almost
perfectionism that I sufferfrom.
Speaker 15 (46:14):
You know I mean like some some of the people on your
facebook group all agree theslogan on my Web site used to be
if you're going to do somethingdo it properly and you know
essentially that could bemisconstrued in you know saying
that oh this guy's obsessed withprofessionalism you know I mean
so I obsessed over that and wentand changed it.
So yeah there you go.
Speaker 7 (46:36):
Do you ever see the movie it's John Turturro and the
guys it's called Mac therethey're contractors are Italian
construction workers go tohouses.
Right.
I related to this movie becauseI grew up you know construction
come to both sides of a family.
My father is an incrediblecarpenter and he and his
brothers are deteriorated to thenth degree.
(46:56):
And in this movie his fathertaught the three of them
something growing up when theylearned how to build houses.
He said there's two ways to dothings.
There's the right way and my wayand they're the same thing.
Speaker 6 (47:11):
Hey I got such a charge out of this movie because
that's kind of how I grew up.
Speaker 7 (47:17):
I mean that was never said explicitly but it's sort of
the same thing and you carrythat.
And part of the reason I'mlaughing so much when you when
you say all this is because I'mvery much the same way.
OK.
Letting go letting go of that.
That nth degree of perfectionyou know like that that extra
pixel or whatever it is that's ahard one.
But it's good that you openlyadmit it it's good that we're
(47:39):
having and open you know therapysession here.
Yep Toia where we can we canovercome our obstacles.
Precisely.
Next question.
Tell me something that you thinkis true about you X or design or
are anything quite frankly thatalmost nobody agrees with you
on.
Speaker 16 (47:57):
I was hoping that you would.
You were going to ask this fromgroup.
Speaker 13 (48:01):
I actually went and wrote down when it comes to you
X if you consider everything youknow that we've I said earlier
to you about you know design isabout people in general
audiences or indeed users.
And I I believe there's aargument to be made that you X
really is just design but youknow proper design you know.
Speaker 14 (48:24):
It's from the ground up it's the way it should be
like you know you should alwaysconduct yourself in
consideration with who the enduser is or who the audience is
obviously of course businessgoals as well.
You have to meet but name.
Yeah.
Arguably I'm like if I had it myway I would rebrand X as just
(48:44):
design like you just pressed allmy buttons.
I don't find a pun on yourFacebook page all day long go
for saying the same thing andyou know understandably Fair
enough.
It's just when I got to gripswith for you really is it just.
Yeah.
Like I was sat there thinking tomyself Hang on this is just
(49:05):
design like this is what designis supposed to be degree.
I mean like you're taking itfrom planning through to the
ideation and cetera etc..
You know I'm like yeah this isthis is just proper design for
me.
Speaker 7 (49:19):
I totally agree totally agree.
And that's and you may haveheard me say that that's my
thing.
Design is design design designis design is design.
I quote Massam or Vanille allthe time because that was his
whole thing.
Right.
One of his most famous quotes isIf you can design one thing well
you can design anything.
Well I firmly believe that.
You're either paying attentionto what people want what they
(49:41):
need what they expect whatthey're able to use all the
constraints there are around theproblem solving discipline.
We know as design if you'redoing that properly you are
doing in effect a lot of theseother sort of subdisciplines
that we've invented.
You are providing goodinformation architecture you are
thinking about language andcommunication you are thinking
about what visual signals getsent you know you are thinking
(50:05):
about the psychology of theperson you are thinking about
usability principles.
So I'm I'm with you I'm inviolent agreement with you there
it's all the same stuff to meyeah.
You know it really really is Ithink the problem is a lot of
people see design in a verysmall box you know in terms of
what it is and what it means andit's not really accurate so
much.
(50:25):
Well scratch one out for me yeahyeah let's do one more got one
word or phrase do you say.
Speaker 6 (50:31):
Way too much process for us like I'm obsessed with
you know the process.
Speaker 14 (50:41):
I mean I'm always asking OK what if the client
says to me I do this I justautomatically even if I don't
say it's the Mouloud I think tomyself why and that are masking
OK.
Why what's the what's theproblem that we're trying to
solve or what's the businessgoal here or what is it that we
(51:02):
have established about the usesthat leads us to this success.
You know like I just have thisobsession with if I push a so
then I need to be able tojustify that direction on
pushing in a minute.
So yeah you go.
My most used word is probablyprocess.
It's a good word misuse.
Speaker 6 (51:20):
I would say I'm going to call my next dog process for
us the process career ticketprocess that my dogs are going
to be like Are you Doctor.
Yeah right.
Well we are at the end of ourtime.
Speaker 7 (51:37):
Sir I cannot thank you enough likewise for a truly
enjoyable conversation I reallyenjoy talking to you and
hopefully we'll have you back atsome point.
Speaker 14 (51:46):
I'm here as long as soon as you need me.
Just gimme gimme a shout.
You know I like hopefully youfound the things I said useful.
Hopefully none of what I saidwas complete and not some
nonsensical.
Speaker 6 (51:59):
A lot of us are nice because now we would have
stopped a lot sooner if that wasthe case.
Oh okay cool thanks for yourhonesty.
Speaker 7 (52:07):
No problem I wish you well in your job search and I
hope you will continue to updateus on your progress.
Speaker 14 (52:13):
Definitely will do.
Thank you very much for beingthere for me.
You and your all your followers.
You know I mean like has faredmuch appreciated.
It's great to have somebody likeyou in the community.
You're welcome I'm honored to beof service.
Gay rights is something that wecan just do the same.
We'll speak against say.
Take our YouTube goodbye.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
That wraps up this edition of making us work.
Thanks for listening and I hopehearing these stories provide
some useful perspective andencouragement along with a
reminder that you're not alone.
Before I go I want you to knowyou can find shows and links to
the things mentioned during ourconversation by visiting give
good you X.com slash podcast.
(52:56):
You'll also find links to moreUS resources on the web and
social media along with ways tocontact me if you're interested
in sharing your own story here.
Speaker 17 (53:05):
Until next time this is Joe Anatoliy reminding you
that it's people like you whomake us work.
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