January 8, 2018 • 53 mins
Today we head to the Netherlands to talk with Esther Schinkel, who, in her own words, is passionate about making the web usable. And as I think you’ll hear, she takes a great deal of pride and joy in that endeavor.
Esther began her creative life as a fine artist, and she believes that much of the power of the internet is lost because we are not fully utilizing our resources, particularly in the field of education – which happens to be the industry she’s focused on.
Introducing concepts like gamification and personalized learning experiences, Esther has been slowly and steadily working to improve the tools teachers use to engage and motivate students.
And by doing so, making the Internet a place that helps people learn and grow.
Portfolio: Designed by Esther
LinkedIn: esther-schinkel
Facebook: esther.schinkel
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hello and welcome to making us work to give good
podcast.
I'm your host Giuntoli and ourfocus here is on folks like you
doing a real often unglamorousEurex work in the real world.
You'll hear about theirstruggles their successes and
their journey to and through thetrenches of product design
development and of course userexperience.
(00:29):
Today my guest is Esther Shinklewho hails from the Netherlands
in her own words.
Esther is passionate aboutmaking the Web usable and as I
think you'll hear she takesgreat deal of pride and joy in
that endeavor.
Esther began her creative lifeas a fine artist.
She believes that much of thepower of the Internet is lost
because we're not fullyutilizing our resources
(00:49):
particularly in the field ofeducation which just happens to
be the industry that she'sfocused on introducing concepts
like gamification andpersonalized learning
experiences.
Esther has been slowly andsteadily working to improve the
tools that university teachersuse to engage and motivate
students and by doing so.
Making The Internet a place thathelps people learn and grow.
(01:12):
Here's my conversation withEsther Shinkle on making us
work.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Well first and foremost sir how are you.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
I'm very well thank you.
Quite busy busy with nice stuff.
It's so cool.
Yeah what's on your plate rightnow.
I'm currently working on a toolthe company that works and
creates tools for education.
And one of them is a tool forinteractive presentations which
is usually used in lectures andthe kind of stuff I'm working on
(01:43):
now is making that into sort ofa game of fight experience so
that we can make even superboring lectures still fun to see
who's the audience what's what'sthe age range of the audience.
Usually mostly colleges anduniversities.
So the students are usuallybetween 18 and 28 sort of.
(02:09):
And then there's also theteachers and they can range from
30 to 80.
Interesting.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
Yeah.
Are there out of curiosity arethere any specific hurdles that
you're coming across in terms ofserving the teachers and of this
you know I mean making I'mcomfortable with using something
like this.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Yeah definitely.
Lots of them are not reallyexperienced with computers in
general.
Sure.
And the Internet is super scaryto a lot of them.
And there is there is a widerange so some of them are super
savvy with computers and othersnot at all.
So we have to make sure thatit's easy to use for the people
(02:47):
who barely ever touch acomputer.
But also we don't explain tomarch and our usus can still use
interesting features as well.
That's basically the mainchallenge.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
That's a pretty hard line to walk.
So that's a pretty big range outof curiosity what are you what
kinds of things are you doing totry and account for that.
I mean how are you finding thatmiddle ground.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Well what I usually try to do is find the features
and the settings that prettymuch everyone has to use.
So far for creating such apresentation there's probably a
date on which the presentationwill be and some slides and some
questions in there and all thatstuff.
And that's a set of features andsettings that is visible right
(03:34):
away.
And then for the power users Ihides a lot of stuff so they're
easy to reach but the users thatare very good at computers won't
see them right away so theydon't get distracted or scared
from them.
And that's usually how how I tryto solve it.
And I just test along with bothranges of teachers through
(03:54):
testing prototypes prototypesconducting interviews as well
observing teachers whenever Ican.
Lots of them are not really afan of that book.
Speaker 5 (04:04):
So let me see why.
What is it to like.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Well they don't really like that.
I'm then sitting there in theirclassroom and attending a class
like for a big lecture.
It's usually fine because that'sthe hundreds of people anyway.
Yeah but for a small work roomof about 20 students they think
that it's too distracting tohave me there or they get
distracted by having me there.
(04:31):
I guess I can understand that'sthe kind of fight that I get
from them.
No one's really explicit aboutwhy they don't want me to be
there.
Speaker 6 (04:38):
But that's that's my guess.
They just say they just say no Idon't want to do that pretty
much or don't respond at all.
So they ignore you completely.
Yes some do.
Speaker 5 (04:49):
Ok nice.
Nice.
Yeah right.
Right.
Not like a person.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
So just to back up what was sort of the motivation
for this product in the firstplace.
How did this come about.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Well two guys that founded this company started
about four years ago almost fiveand they obviously were in
university as well.
And they noticed that not a lotof technology was used to
enhance classes.
Usually schools an Elementzwhich is a learning management
(05:26):
system and there are usually theschedules and the gratings and
all that stuff like Blackboardor some.
Yeah exactly.
And during classes not Love wasdone using technology or when it
was used often it wasn't reallyan improvement.
So they decided to start acompany that aims at improving
(05:47):
education.
So we have a whole range oftools and they're all integrated
into one platform as well forpeople who want that.
And we basically tried to findwhatever teachers or students
need now and try to build that.
So it basically came from a badexperience like a lot of things.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
Yeah like a lot of things you know they say
necessity is the mother ofinvention.
Definitely.
I guess this fits the bill interms of the students on the
receiving end.
Are you getting any reactionfrom them based on what you're
doing.
I mean how hungry are the forthis how they feel about it.
How are they reacting to it.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Usually very positive.
It kind of depends on the toolssome tools are more an
improvement for teachers andsome are more for students.
For instance we have one toolthere allows teachers to create
assignments and then studentsneed to end in their work and
then very few each other's work.
And usually the first time thatstudents use that they don't
(06:48):
really like it because it's morework for them and students like
to spend as little time aspossible on their studies.
Usually of course.
So in the beginning they don'treally like it and you kind of
get them saying Oh but isn't itthe teacher's job to grade each
other's work and all that stuffis just taking too much time.
(07:10):
But after a while they start tosee the failure in it.
So that was really nice.
And some things are more obviouslike the value for students so
than they like it straight awayand usually they're already
relieved that our interface ismore intuitive than for instance
blackboards.
I would hope so.
(07:32):
So already that is reallyrefreshing to them.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
Out of curiosity is you mentioned gamification.
Is that where the game fixationthing is coming from where you
feel like you want a higherlevel of engagement.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Yeah engagement and attendance is usually are
usually the things that we tryto improve.
That basically drives a lot ofour we do increasing engagement
attendance.
So even though a subject mightbe really boring to a student we
are hoping to make the course asa whole interesting enough and
(08:05):
fun enough to just do it anywayeven though it might not like
the subject so that either theyget a better grade or they might
start to like the subject as awhole which is even better.
For instance when we've had somestudents who were doing the
advanced math course it was amasters on the technical end of
(08:29):
university here and it was superdry really dry stuff and really
hard as well.
But the teachers there made itso much fun.
They came to fight the entirecourse partly using our system
and partly using their owntechniques and it was so nice
that the whole course was reallyfun.
(08:50):
Students say a lot of fun doingit even though the subject
matter was really boring andsuper hard and they got so much
positive reaction to that.
The grades went up a lot and theteacher of course even got
elected to Teacher of the yearfor two times.
While yes every helps a lot andwe tried to do it to gain like
(09:13):
getting points for everythingand leaderboards everywhere but
more using a little moreabstract game vacation
techniques wherever possible.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
And that's that's what I'm curious about.
Can you give me an example ofwhy you in this particular you
know this math course you'retalking about.
Can you give me an example ofhow that would work how you took
something it was dry and turnedit into something that's a lot
more engaging.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Yeah I wanted to explore this correctly.
They did.
They had lectures.
And during those lectures theyhad a lot of questions that the
students needed to answersometimes even in groups and
depending on how well they didthat the top so many students
top 20 or something they couldsort of unlock another class.
(10:01):
So there was an extra class forthe people who really did their
best and during that other classthey could ask them anything
they got more information morein-depth really personalized to
do what they actually needed toknow.
So that was really valuable forthe students because then the
(10:22):
teachers could really cover whatknowledge you didn't have yet
instead of just covering somegeneral knowledge which is
usually what they do in alecture of hundreds of people.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
Sure.
So the accumulation of points issort of unlocking a more
personalized experience for themwhere they feel like they're not
being preached to from on highanymore it's more of a more of a
one to one kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
Yeah exactly.
And also gave the students somemore control because if you
didn't want all that you couldjust not participate.
Well it was kind of up to them.
But if you did participate wellprobably a better grade.
So they could actually get stuffthat was of value to them.
(11:06):
And that was also fun and thatmade it more intrinsically
motivating to them.
Speaker 4 (11:10):
Yeah I think that's an important point because a lot
of the stuff that I see is sortof mandated use.
Right.
We're an organization comes outwith a set way of doing things
even if they're doing thingslike came to for occasion where
the goal is to make it moreimmersive more interactive more
fun.
It still becomes this mandatethat you must do these things
and I think the minute it feelsto me I'd like to know what you
(11:31):
think that the minute youintroduce those rules you have
to do this.
People just automatically evenif it's interesting to them just
sort of turn it off like youknow I've got nothing in my life
that told me I have to do this.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Yeah exactly.
And there has been research doneabout that as well.
And they found into if peoplelike to do something.
I think the specific experimentwas to have people who liked to
draw stuff and they had somepeople who'd like to draw stuff.
Then they started paying all ofthose people to draw stuff.
(12:06):
So then the people who werenormally drawing started
drawing.
And then after a while they juststopped paying them to draw
stuff and then everybody stoppedbecause even the people who did
like to draw the money thing gotconnected to it and in-game
information is usually points orvirtual money or whatever that
(12:28):
are connected to it and that wastaking away their intrinsic
motive motivation was gone aswell.
Right.
For what.
Yeah.
So that is really tricky aswell.
That is something we need toreally be careful about as well
because if a student does like asubject we don't want to ruin
that by having gamification.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
Well yeah because when the motivation becomes I'm
looking for the right word butsort of corrupted in a way yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
Even even if we start motivating students still needs
to be a long lasting motivation.
Intrinsic instead of onlyextrinsic.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
I agree totally.
So to break out of this onething I'm curious about is your
journey up to now.
OK.
How did you wind up here.
What's your journey been to touse your experience.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Well it was kind of accidental really.
Yeah I've been drawing andpainting all of my life so far.
And to do that a lot whilegrowing up.
So by the end of high school youto make up my mind what I was
going to study or if I was goingto study something and I wanted
(13:39):
to go to art school for visualart painting and drawing and
that kind of stuff.
And so I went there for aninterview to get interviewed and
approved.
And while I was there having aninterview with a guy I was
thinking oh my god this isenough for me because usually
people who study that becomeindependent artists I would just
(14:04):
basically have to make art allday and find people to buy it
which is not my thing.
Speaker 6 (14:10):
So you immediately felt like wait a minute and at
some point we were like OK wellnever mind I just got to go.
This is not for me.
Wow.
I mean did you like that tooksome joy out of out of drawing
or making art.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
No not at all.
I was afraid that making it myjob would take out the joy and
having to do it.
And the older sales staff now.
Yeah I heard.
So then I needed to findsomething else.
And I didn't want to dosomething creative.
And while looking at otherschools and what kind of
(14:47):
programs there were I cameacross what I ended up studying
which was called InteractiveMedia at the time.
So I went there to an open dayand I really liked it.
It was still creative but withcomputers obviously but also
more focused on actual people.
(15:09):
So instead of making art andthen trying to find someone to
go with it you would have peoplewith a problem and then using
art to solve their problem.
So I would be sure that whateverI was making was actually useful
to someone and science was goingto use it and be happy with it.
And that's just sort of clickedwith you.
Yes definitely.
(15:30):
And even then in the beginning Ididn't know that there was such
a thing as user experience orinteraction design.
But the first year was verymixed.
So we had a lot of everything sosome programming some marketing
some visual design some Intrexondesign kind of courses some
(15:51):
research.
And it was basically during thatyear or the second year that I
kind of got interested in thewhole information architecture
interaction design line ofcourses.
So I started using the electivesthat fit with that and in the
end internship and my thesis.
(16:12):
So I kind of I'm kind of gladthat I found that that study to
do because otherwise I wouldnever have ended up in this
field maybe.
What kind of place did youintern at my current job
actually.
Yeah yeah.
So I started off here as anintern and then I did my thesis
here and never left.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
Interesting so how many years have you been there
now.
Over four years.
OK.
Which honestly in today'sclimate for a lot of people is a
very long time.
You know surrealism seems likeon the surface but that kind of
longevity in all honesty isgetting harder to come by.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
Yeah and I see that in articles and on the internet
but I don't really understandwhy that is.
To be honest with you.
Maybe it's a difference inculture or something.
I'm from the internet could beand here as far as I can so it's
not really a thing to switchjobs every year.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
So if that difference is cultural I'm curious.
I wonder how much of that has todo with the culture of the
organization not knowing whatyou know and being exposed to to
other other things or otherplaces via the Internet.
Do you sense any differencebetween the organizational
culture that you're used to andmaybe what exists in other
(17:30):
places.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Well I think I think we have a pretty typical sort of
environment.
So I sort of identify with thestuff that I see on the internet
about startups in othercountries though maybe a little
less focused on getting as bigas possible and earning as much
money as possible.
(17:52):
Well though a lot of otherstartups are more I think
startups are in general moremission driven and not yet very
money driven.
You know what I mean.
Yeah I do.
That's the idea that I get.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
I do so I mean for for four years with where you've
where you've been.
My guess would be and you couldtell me that that motivation
hasn't changed for you yet orfor the organization that you're
with.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
No not at all.
Pretty much all of us aregetting more and more excited
about what we're doing.
That's fantastic in thebeginning in the beginning I
remember our platform was prettycrappy and then we had a lot of
negative or mad reactions fromour users.
So that pretty much required ourintrinsic motivation to just
(18:40):
keep going and keep going andbelieve we could make it better.
And at some point they willthey're going to love it and
we're now up to a point wherepeople realize what we're doing.
And of course we we still needto improve it a lot.
But people are excited aboutwhat we have now.
So that is really motivating tome hearing that we actually are
(19:03):
improving people's lives becausethat's where we were setting out
to do.
And that makes a lot of fun.
So how big is your organizationcomfort people.
About 15 full time people.
Speaker 7 (19:16):
And then about three or four interns.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
Has that Make-Up been pretty steady in terms of
keeping the same people for thesame length of time.
Speaker 7 (19:25):
Not necessarily the same people we do have at the
moment we do have a core team ofwhich I think about AIDS have
been here for two or more yearsand I think four or five of us
have been here since pretty muchthe beginning.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
And then we do have a lot of interns coming and going
of easily.
Well I was I was discussing thiswith a colleague last week
coincidentally and we werewondering how many people have
worked at our company and wehaven't figured it out yet.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
But a lot yeah I mean that change you know change
people people coming in and outis is natural.
I mean I guess part of thereason I was asking Number one
it's inspiring.
OK and it's it's really positiveto hear that you feel like you
know for the most part you'remore motivated now than you were
(20:25):
when you started.
And that tells me a couple ofthings.
It tells me number one thatyou're doing something that's
valuable and important.
And number two it tells me thatyou're getting confirmation of
that from people.
Yeah.
What what kinds of things comeacross to that make you feel
like man I love this job.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
When for instance I I speak to teachers and they they
see a design that I've workedon.
So maybe I'm doing user tests ordoing interviews and teachers
telling me that they needcertain stuff or they would like
to have certain stuff and then Ishow it to them when they're
there like oh my god this iswhat I needed.
(21:06):
So some of them are really soexcited because they've wanted
to change their courses sinceforever but they could never
find the tools to do so.
And if they would do it in a lowtech way it would just cost way
too much time.
So sometimes they get soenthusiastic and they're all
finally finally I can make mycourses better.
(21:27):
And that makes me always feel sohappy that I could be a part of
that.
And also we hear from studentsthat really liked to do a
certain course and that coursecourses used our software that
is really nice as well.
Sometimes we even that we oncehad a teacher who sent us the
grades of his class from lastyear before he used our
(21:50):
platform.
Speaker 8 (21:50):
And then the grades of this year while using our
platform and the average wasabout I think two points higher.
Wow.
And he said the only thing Ichanged was using your software.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
And then all of us were I guess this is where we
are doing it for Essy and that'sand it's wonderful to get that
kind of validation and I thinkthat does not happen for a lot
of folks.
And I think that's why it's hardfor people quite frankly.
You know we talked about jobjumping a couple of minutes ago
and I I always feel like maybethat's part of it.
(22:24):
I think you can labor in thisfield for a long time and not
get any confirmation that you'reactually sort of making a
difference you know and at theend of the day I think for a lot
of us in this field that makinga difference part matters more
than you know the money part orthe upward mobility or the you
know any other any other part ofus.
Speaker 8 (22:43):
Yeah I think so too at least I hope so.
That's certainly the impressionI get.
I think that is the case.
Yeah.
And you can only do so muchbased on pure motivation at some
point.
You're just gonna run out of it.
You need something that reallyfills your motivation.
Baskett or so to speak.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
Yeah.
So what do you think.
I don't even know if this is thequestion I've been asking
anyway.
Is that something that you thinkpeople in in all aspects of this
field with were termite usersexperience or from mission
architecture or design or evendevelopment.
You're right.
To some degree are entrepreneursthat come up with products like
(23:24):
the one that you guys are doing.
Is that intrinsic motivationthat Torna need to do something
for the greater good so tospeak.
Is that something that you'reborn with and as such you
naturally gravitate towardsthese things or does it come
through experience andreinforcement.
Well that's a good question andknow that I always wonder you
(23:45):
know is this is there somethingin us that we're sort of
compelled to do what we do.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
I think so but I think most people feel the need
to do something good for theworld or for humanity or
whatever.
It's just a matter of yourdefinition of good.
I think there a lot of friendsinstance lawyers are judges when
I do something good as well theyjust might have a different
(24:11):
definition of good.
Speaker 7 (24:14):
Or they might value other things before doing good.
I think that's a huge group ofpeople as well.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
I think there are very little people who actually
set out to do somethingconstructive.
There is a group but I think Idon't think it's a majority.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
Do you think part of the problem could be that in
some cases you're rewarded forthe wrong things.
In other words in a lot of casespeople find themselves sort of
banging their heads up againstthe wall because the culture
values.
Speaker 9 (24:47):
Other things.
Yeah or maybe you can get paidenough to do good stuff and you
need to survive.
So maybe you get stuck intoanother line of work just
because you need to pay rent anddo groceries and all that stuff.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
Has there ever been any point in your own career
where you felt frustrateddisheartened felt like you know
maybe I don't know if I cancontinue to do this.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Yeah because like I said we're a startup so there
wasn't a lot of money.
Our CEO is always really donehis best to not have investors
so he never had a partyinvesting in us which is
something we take pride inbecause it means that we can do
what we want to do and improveeducation and have an investor
(25:33):
wanting to cash out as fast aspossible and therefore stopping
innovation.
Speaker 9 (25:40):
But because of that we also usually have a lot of
money to spend also on salaries.
So there have been about a yearor so that it was kind of hard
to get through the month andsometimes the last few days I
didn't really have that muchmoney anymore so we would have
(26:01):
to eat like ramen or just rest.
Speaker 10 (26:05):
There was some sauce for three days until the next
paycheck came in and after awhile they kind of got
exhausting as well.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
It's stressful to have to watch your bank account
all the time of course.
But I think the work that we dokept me going and the team we
have an amazing team.
So such lovely people I considerpretty much every one of them
close friends and that reallyhelps that feeling like you are
(26:37):
all in this together.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We were all we were all livinglike that basically and we were
all doing doing awesome stuffand we all felt like if we just
make it better and better andbetter the product than where
we're going to just tell we'relicenses to universities and
(26:57):
they'll have more money than wecan get paid more.
So we kind of saw it as our ownresponsibility to make the
company more money and thereforemaking ourselves more money
instead of kind of being avictim and saying I don't get
paid enough I'm going to leaveis there.
Speaker 4 (27:14):
Out of curiosity is there any sort of sharing of
ownership or shares in thecompany in other words.
Is there any sort of formalstructure in place where if the
company does well you knowyou're sort of brought along
with that success.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
Yeah if the company gets sold everyone who works
there at that point in time willget a share of that money.
Wonderful.
And how big that share isdepends on how long you've
worked here.
Also our boss really wants youto pay us as much as you can so
(27:50):
whenever there's more moneyavailable he raises our
salaries.
Fantastic.
So it's not that I need you tofight for it.
I know that he wants to.
So whenever you can he does andit's rare.
Speaker 4 (28:05):
OK.
And again I can't speak foroverseas organizations
necessarily given that I'm basedin the U.S.
but I do think that's rare.
And I think it's it's a lessonthat a lot of organizations once
they get past the startup phaseeither sort of forget or never
properly learned in the firstplace and that is if you want
people to be down there with youin the trenches you know and you
(28:27):
want them to care about as muchas you care about it and you
want them to give 1000 percentlike you believe you are.
Then you have to allow them toshare truly in that success.
They have to be a part of it.
Speaker 8 (28:41):
Yeah we share the bad times when we share the good
times.
Basically we cannot share thehorrible times.
And then when it gets goodyou're like OK.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
Right from where you started to where you are.
Are there any either people orexperiences or instances that
you feel like have been a hugeinfluence on what you do and how
you do.
Speaker 9 (29:07):
Well for most of my time here I've been the only
designer.
There have been some times wherewe had one or two others but
they never stayed fortunately.
And whenever we did have anotherdesigner I was more experienced
in in general and alsoexperience within the company.
(29:27):
So I never really had a leadertype or someone I could live on
but I did have the fullresponsibility of.
Of.
Making.
The designers work.
And I think having theirresponsibility and just having
to deliver was something thatreally motivated me to learn a
(29:50):
lot.
And I did learn a lot during mytime here.
When I look back at my firstscience I'm pretty embarrassed.
Speaker 5 (29:58):
We all are.
We all share that story.
I couldn't have made this.
Speaker 8 (30:08):
I think I think having a responsibility in just
having to figure out what I needto learn and then how I am going
to learn it in time for my nextdelivery something that really
really shaped me.
And we also always had a verylike all my co-workers whenever
(30:29):
I asked for feedback Tuesdayusually showed that my designs.
Speaker 9 (30:33):
And then they gave feedback on it and they were
always very critical.
They never tried to spare myfeelings or anything.
So sometimes they could bereally harsh but that was really
helpful as well because I didn'tlike those sessions in the
beginning.
Sure I just wanted to get mydesigns as good as possible so
(30:54):
that I could finally get somegood feedback from them.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
How did you learn to become to become more
comfortable with that.
Because you know it's hard tohear the cruiser's really kind
it's hard to hear especially ifyou care about what you do.
Speaker 9 (31:05):
Yeah and I know it's not about me but it's also about
my work.
So it's still a bit hard.
I don't know.
I think it helps to do thosesessions often at some point you
just get more used to it aswell.
Like for instance presenting inthe beginning that's also super
(31:27):
scary.
But the more you do it theeasier it gets.
And also yeah just making mydesigns is as good as I could
and asking for direct feedback.
Also really helps becausesometimes they get a lot of
feedback about stuff that Iwasn't even wanting feedback on
or that wasn't even done yet orsomething like that.
(31:51):
So I'm priming them byexplaining the context of the
design and why it is like it isand what aspects of it I want
feedback on that really helpedas well.
Speaker 4 (32:04):
So would you be as successful.
Do you think without thosedifficult conversations.
Speaker 9 (32:09):
No no not at all.
Because usually the feedback isreally good and sometimes the
feedback doesn't make sense tome.
But it's still interestingbecause it's a point of view.
They apparently have a point ofview at that time that I hadn't
considered yet.
And sometimes the users likewhen I make another version of
(32:31):
my design and I get testedsometimes the users don't agree
on the feedback that the teamgave me.
Interesting but that's fine.
At least I checked becausesometimes it is better.
Sometimes it's reallyimprovement because I'd rather
get some harsh feedback from myco-workers than from the users.
(32:51):
Because when we get feedbackfrom the users that means that
someone did a class or maybe anentire course and we sort of
ruined it in some way or form sothen I read it get it from the
team there from the customersusers.
Speaker 6 (33:08):
Basically you have to find out that you're wrong you'd
rather have it happeninternally.
Yeah exactly.
And that makes it way more easyto digest and to just receive
that feedback as well.
Right.
Speaker 4 (33:22):
Out of curiosity have you ever rolled anything out to
users that they just unanimouslycomplained about.
But then you've sort of foundout through use that it was
actually beneficial to them eventhough they were never had those
instances where people you knowsort of rose up and said This is
(33:42):
terrible we're never going touse this and then they're used
told you otherwise.
Speaker 9 (33:47):
I cannot think of an instance where it happened.
Speaker 4 (33:50):
I'm just I'm always curious about the disconnect
between what people say theywant and what they actually want
because there are so manyinstances of that.
Well something that we do havehappening often is that teachers
or students say they can dosomething or that for instance
(34:10):
when we were building thembecause she spoke to.
Speaker 8 (34:13):
Us.
I spoke to a lot of teachers andthey were all very confident
sounding like I really need todo those kinds of assignments
and to do those all the time nowand.
And then when we made that tofrom then on we could actually
see what they were doing and howthey would construct the
assignments.
And then sometimes we getnegative reaction from them
(34:36):
saying well it took the studentsway too much time to give the
feedback or they couldn't findit for you.
Well like a negative experience.
And then we went to look howthey set up the assignments.
Often it was the case that theyjust set up the assignment in a
horrible way.
So it wasn't really because ofthe door but because the
(35:00):
students had to peer review forinstance work of 20 pages using
about 10 criteria which is waytoo large because you cannot
remember 10 criteria whilereading so much stuff and then
annotating all the time.
It takes a lot of time and a waytoo much cognitive effort.
So that was kind of funny thatwe were seeing those teachers
(35:24):
that were so confident they weregoing to do this well kind of
screw up.
Speaker 11 (35:29):
Well not funny but funny but you know I don't
really know what you mean.
Speaker 4 (35:36):
I mean in those instances you know to what
degree is it within your powerto build in some kind of
constraints to try and alleviatethat because at some point you
think to yourself OK it may verywell be that some of these folks
aren't going to change.
You probably know this as wellas I do.
You can train people you canencourage them to do certain
things but at some point youalmost always have to try and
(35:58):
take a step to constrain some ofthat behavior with the software
because you know you're notgoing to get there.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
Yeah definitely.
And apparently not all of themknew how to set up a good beer.
Two big assignments.
So I created some new designsand built in some constraints.
Not really constraints becausethey still can create an
assignment with 10 criteria.
But after the fifth or sixthafter that the button allows you
(36:29):
to add another one.
What have some text next to itthat says we advise you to not
use more than blah blah criteriaand the button itself gets a
little less attention grabbingas well.
So at least if someone isn'taware that they're doing it
wrong will now know it and canthat be like oh OK well I need
to do this differently.
(36:50):
And also we created someplaceholder text in the criteria
creation Baartman that kind ofillustrated what a good criteria
is.
Speaker 4 (37:00):
See another two great examples.
Those are two great examples youbuilt two things in that didn't
force anybody to do anythingright.
Because it goes against humannature.
Yeah.
That the same time you'reproviding necessary guidance.
I mean similar to actualsolutions Yeah.
Speaker 11 (37:14):
So pretty much they can still screw it up but it
will be harder.
Speaker 6 (37:22):
It will be harder for them to accidentally screw it
up.
That's kind of what we weregoing for.
Did you see any change as aresult.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
Well so far so good.
We just had the summer vacationand we changed that.
Right before the summervacation.
So currently we're still in thefirst quarter of the school
year.
So not a lot of concrete resultsyet but so far as it can get we
have had less complaints so faron assignments.
(37:51):
But the evaluations still haveto come in.
Speaker 4 (37:55):
It sounds like that's a step in the right direction
because like we said thetradeoff is always you can't
force anybody to do anything buta lot of times as you said
people aren't aware yeah thatthey're doing something that is
that is sort of making it hardand being aware of the words
you're doing is a bitunconventional.
Speaker 3 (38:13):
That's that's the key because some teachers just do
things differently or they aretrying to innovate using
existing tools or whatever andwe want to allow for that.
So you can do whatever you want.
Well we tried to guide you intodoing the correct thing which is
the hardest balancing act in theworld.
Speaker 4 (38:33):
But it's part and parcel of everything that we do.
Designers are you actors orproduct developers of any kind.
You're always straddling theline between trying to draw hard
boundaries around things and atthe same time giving human
beings the essential freedom tobe themselves you know which is
how everybody does things.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
Exactly.
It's like there's the famousimage of Bath's through the bark
with some grass and then you seelike the people don't don't go
around the corner but they justcough through the grass and then
you see new paths emergingthere.
It's kind of like that right tocut the corner Yeah.
And you can keep them on theback by putting fences
(39:12):
everywhere but that would justmake people miserable.
Speaker 6 (39:15):
Yeah and they'll probably find another way
although they will always find away.
Speaker 4 (39:20):
Right.
Right right.
You know I mean I always feellike some of the biggest aha
moment you could ever have inproduct development is watching
the work arounds that peoplecome up with Yeah in order to
avoid using what's in front ofthem.
Speaker 11 (39:34):
Definitely.
Speaker 10 (39:35):
I remember you had a gesture of that in your book and
that was so eye opening to me.
I was like oh yes the work aroseas something since then I've
been really paying attention tothat and it's really interesting
because every time now that theuser mentions to me like oh I
can do this or it's hard to dothis.
(39:55):
And I just say okay well maybeit's hard but how do you do it
right.
Speaker 4 (40:00):
And it's so interesting to see what they
come up with sometimes and thevolume of effort that's involved
and that that solution.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
And also when they do come up with the workaround that
costs a lot of effort thenapparently they want it back.
Speaker 10 (40:16):
So it's a goal that they really have and they're
dedicated to that yeah.
So if you make a fix for thatit's going to be right for them
for sure right.
Speaker 4 (40:24):
And they often can't tell you you know what it is
exactly what they want.
But what you're absolutely rightif you understand what the goal
is if you understand whatthey're trying to accomplish
Yeah that's how you get there.
Speaker 9 (40:36):
And you know it's important to them as well.
The goal is important to them sothat is validated as well.
Speaker 4 (40:41):
Yeah because I mean like I said You see you see
people do an extraordinaryamount of work just to avoid
using workflow sequence that hasmaybe you know four or five
steps.
Yeah it's crazy.
It is crazy.
So we're at about 10 minutesthat's what I usually like to do
here is I want to ask you somehotseat questions do things that
(41:03):
aren't necessarily directlyrelated to you so you can answer
them however you like but thisis really just more about you.
So the first question is whatword or phrase do you use to
offer something you say a lot.
Speaker 11 (41:18):
That's not how I decided to develop first.
Do you realize how many times aday.
About three times a day asdevelopers like to say you love
creative liberty or maybesometimes they try and cut
(41:38):
corners.
Speaker 10 (41:39):
I don't know but sometimes I'm looking over their
shoulders wearing it variesquite a small office so all the
developers like within twometres of my desk.
And sometimes I see them makingsomething that well but that's
not how I designed it.
Look at the images.
Speaker 5 (41:57):
So do they I know to hide their work for me.
Speaker 11 (41:59):
No they do it.
They know I'll find outeventually.
There is no escape.
I will find out.
You can run but you can't hidethe spirit.
Speaker 4 (42:11):
Do they ever come up with something that is better.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Yeah that has happened sometimes.
There was a use case that Iforgot for instance.
And then they came across it andthey just made up something for
it and then it was like oh nice.
I completely forgot about that.
Speaker 5 (42:27):
Very nice but often it's worse often that's not the
way I just like unfortunately.
Speaker 4 (42:37):
Tell me what are you.
Speaker 8 (42:39):
Not very good at I'm not very good at planning stuff.
Managing I'm getting better butit's a weakness though that I've
never been good at that.
It doesn't come natural to me.
I'm a bit chaotic and I don'tlike to be superstructures.
But there is a certain amount ofstructure that I need to be able
(43:00):
to work with other people so I'mkind of trying to find a balance
there.
Speaker 4 (43:03):
I think for some people specially folks who are
much more red brained I meanthat's sort of a life long
struggle.
Speaker 10 (43:10):
Yeah.
I don't expect to ever get goodat it.
That's OK as long as you keeptrying.
I'm aiming for good enough.
Speaker 12 (43:15):
You know you go good enough.
Yeah.
I'm not very good at exercisingeither.
Speaker 5 (43:27):
Who is I guess not a lot of people are.
Speaker 4 (43:31):
Tell me something that's true about you extra
design or product developmentthat almost nobody agrees with
you.
Speaker 8 (43:38):
Well in my experience like pretty ambit within my
company stuff that pretty muchno one agrees on is that rules
don't always matter.
Sometimes a coworker comesacross one of those design rules
for instance.
You need to be able to reacheverything within three clicks.
Speaker 10 (44:02):
One of my favorites the app that kind of stuff
sometimes someone comes with oneof those things and then they
come to me and they say well ittakes way too many clicks to get
to here or there.
Speaker 8 (44:14):
Or they say oh this button needs to look like this
because of what.
And then I in my usual answer islike well OK that might be a
rule but it doesn't necessarilyapply in this situation.
Speaker 5 (44:28):
That's usually a nice discussion though we have the
nice desk.
I get the feeling you're beingvery polite.
Speaker 10 (44:38):
I don't really like to like feed other stuff.
I don't mean like to be.
I know I'm the designer and I'mgoing to do it like this.
No matter what you think.
Speaker 8 (44:48):
Sure I like it if we were all on the same page so I
usually try to come up witharguments to explain to them why
I'm saying this and that's theright way to do it.
It often takes a lot of timebecause most people think stuff
from certain websites is morereliable than my word and I can
understand that everybody issort of searching for an
(45:10):
absolute you know a silverbullet method.
Speaker 4 (45:13):
And I've been guilty of using that term myself to be
honest but I really believe thatthere are no absolutes.
No you find one rule thatapplies to every single
situation.
Do you think that it's justnatural human beings to want
that.
Speaker 8 (45:28):
Kind of simplicity.
I think so because it makes itway easier to understand
everything around you.
If you only have to remember onechunk of knowledge and you can
apply that to everything yourlife that is really easy because
you learn a small thing and thenyou can do everything.
But if you have to look for newpatterns everywhere you go like
(45:51):
friends I think I think this isreally baked into our biology
because when you've had anencounter with a tiger back in
the days and you run intoanother Tiger you're going to be
OK.
This one's probably going to bedangerous as well.
You're not going to find out ohthis tiger dangerous.
(46:11):
Oh is that Tiger dangerous.
I think we tried to look forconsistencies and patterns
everywhere but sometimes theyjust don't exist or there might
be a pattern.
But this might be an exceptionto the pattern.
It is also a possibility and Ido think that though those kinds
of rules are helpful as astarting point.
(46:32):
But you do need to investigatewhether this might still be a
different situation.
Speaker 4 (46:39):
I agree.
I agree.
And I think it's the right wayto go about doing just about
anything.
You know you have to stay open.
Yeah I think so do.
So are you into music.
Yeah.
So here comes this one.
If you were only allowed to pickone band or song that you could
listen to for the rest of yourlife what would it be.
Speaker 5 (46:58):
Oh my god that's a hard question for the rest of my
life.
Well I would fail thiscompletely.
Speaker 3 (47:06):
Well that is difficult because you want to
have something that you canlisten to at parties or in
concert and dance to but also ischill for when you're out for
instance on a train you're doingsomething wrong.
OK so let's say band not song.
Yeah definitely.
(47:27):
That is hard.
A band that I really love isdire straits pretty much
everything.
Mark Knopfler but it's notreally party music's more chill
music.
They have pretty wide rangethough yeah they do.
So I think that would be themost suitable but I would need a
second one for more partiesthough.
Speaker 12 (47:47):
OK.
You're welcome.
Who's your party back.
Who's my party back.
So you went there.
Speaker 8 (47:56):
Well that would be something cheerful.
So I would take some rock n rollrockabilly kind of because they
condense it so little Richard orsomething Richard.
Not so we have dancing musicinto music.
Speaker 4 (48:11):
All right cool.
And of course in a perfect worldyou to have much more than that
as we definitely did.
I'm glad we have more.
Amen amen.
You know I'm the type of personwhere I get bored with what I'm
saying to sort of on a dailybasis Yeah you know it's sort of
it's sort of never changes forme and I'm just always looking
(48:32):
for something else and there area few things that get me as
excited as when I hear somethingthat just blows me away.
Yes.
You know like wow I can'tbelieve that this exists and I
didn't know.
Speaker 10 (48:43):
But definitely.
And those kinds of moments Iusually have with like hard rock
or heavy metal girls is just soenergetic and so more intense
than that usually with that kindof music when I come across new
songs.
This is it dances so nice.
I really love that.
Speaker 8 (49:04):
I'm a big fan of the Discover Weekly feature of
Spotify.
I love that because I get newmusic every week guaranteed and
that can lead you to watch anentire album and maybe a similar
other band or artist and it getsthe ball rolling.
Speaker 4 (49:19):
Yeah and that's why I mean we'll wrap this up but I
feel like it always bothers mewhen I hear people say well
there's just there's no goodmusic anymore there's no bands
making great music there'snothing you know interesting or
innovative or inventive and I'mlike you know there's so much
there's a universe out there.
When I from high school tocollege in particular I mean you
(49:41):
had to work to find somethingthat wasn't mainstream you know
radio the same six bands thatgot played.
There was physical effortinvolved just trying to find out
about this stuff and now it'slike when you open up Google
you're there.
Speaker 10 (49:55):
Yes everyone just can record some stuff you don't
have to get a record label andloads of money and all that
stuff.
Everyone is just making musicand it's amazing.
Speaker 4 (50:05):
And that's a gift.
To me that's a gift for me.
So what is your wedding band.
Oh you're going to make meanswer this.
Speaker 13 (50:12):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (50:15):
So you can ask the question but I've never in my
life been able to because thereare things that I there are so
many things that I love.
And I love with with equalpassion.
I love metal I love jazz.
I love punk.
I love classical music.
I have heard country that hasblown me away although not a
whole lot.
(50:36):
Same same there isn't a genrewhere I haven't heard something
that made me go wow I meanthat's amazing.
My kids place police to me allthe time that they're listening
to that I would never seek outokay otherwise.
And I still manage to be flooredhere and there.
One band I think quite honestlyif I was absolutely forced to
(50:58):
choose one band it wouldprobably be Black Sabbath
because their entire career andI'm including the years with
Ronnie James Dio vs Ozzy Osbornebecause it stylistically they
were all over the place.
I mean even those early or sixSabbath records have a
tremendous amount of jazz inthem.
Yeah as much as anything else Imean they swing.
(51:21):
In some cases it's you knowthere's there's quiet moments
there's loud moments there'spure blues there's just sort of
all over the place there's a lotof it what's word variety that's
the word.
Speaker 6 (51:33):
So I think it's you I think if you made me that was
sort of be my choice but goodchoice but I do so grudgingly.
Well it isn't terrible questionbut you started.
Speaker 5 (51:43):
I know and that's why.
And kudos to you for turninginto something.
All right Astrid it has been anabsolute pleasure talking with
you.
Speaker 4 (51:52):
I wish you much success in your career.
Thank you.
And it seems like you will findit all by yourself given your
attitude toward things.
I want you to know that that'srare thinking and you should
protect it.
That's very nice of you to say.
And I think it's obvious.
OK.
Success comes in my opinion fromthe intrinsic motivation that
(52:14):
you're talking about from caringvery deeply about what you do
and the result of what you do.
And I think that you've got thatin spades.
Speaker 3 (52:20):
Cool.
I think it definitely helps you.
Speaker 4 (52:22):
All right well you take care and until next time.
Yes.
I wish you well.
Speaker 3 (52:26):
Have a nice day YouTube.
Speaker 1 (52:27):
Bye bye.
That wraps up this edition ofmaking us work.
Thanks for listening and I hopehearing these stories provide
some useful perspective andencouragement along with a
reminder that you're not alone.
Before I go I want you to knowthat you can find shows and
links to the things mentionedduring our conversation by
visiting give you X dot comslash podcast.
(52:50):
You'll also find links to moreUS resources on the web and
social media along with ways tocontact me if you're interested
in sharing your own story here.
Until next time this is Jonahtotally reminding you that it's
people like you who make youwork.
Hello and welcome to making us work to give good
podcast.
I'm your host Giuntoli and ourfocus here is on folks like you
doing a real often unglamorousEurex work in the real world.
You'll hear about theirstruggles their successes and
their journey to and through thetrenches of product design
development and of course userexperience.
(00:29):
Today my guest is Esther Shinklewho hails from the Netherlands
in her own words.
Esther is passionate aboutmaking the Web usable and as I
think you'll hear she takesgreat deal of pride and joy in
that endeavor.
Esther began her creative lifeas a fine artist.
She believes that much of thepower of the Internet is lost
because we're not fullyutilizing our resources
(00:49):
particularly in the field ofeducation which just happens to
be the industry that she'sfocused on introducing concepts
like gamification andpersonalized learning
experiences.
Esther has been slowly andsteadily working to improve the
tools that university teachersuse to engage and motivate
students and by doing so.
Making The Internet a place thathelps people learn and grow.
(01:12):
Here's my conversation withEsther Shinkle on making us
work.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Well first and foremost sir how are you.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
I'm very well thank you.
Quite busy busy with nice stuff.
It's so cool.
Yeah what's on your plate rightnow.
I'm currently working on a toolthe company that works and
creates tools for education.
And one of them is a tool forinteractive presentations which
is usually used in lectures andthe kind of stuff I'm working on
(01:43):
now is making that into sort ofa game of fight experience so
that we can make even superboring lectures still fun to see
who's the audience what's what'sthe age range of the audience.
Usually mostly colleges anduniversities.
So the students are usuallybetween 18 and 28 sort of.
(02:09):
And then there's also theteachers and they can range from
30 to 80.
Interesting.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
Yeah.
Are there out of curiosity arethere any specific hurdles that
you're coming across in terms ofserving the teachers and of this
you know I mean making I'mcomfortable with using something
like this.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Yeah definitely.
Lots of them are not reallyexperienced with computers in
general.
Sure.
And the Internet is super scaryto a lot of them.
And there is there is a widerange so some of them are super
savvy with computers and othersnot at all.
So we have to make sure thatit's easy to use for the people
(02:47):
who barely ever touch acomputer.
But also we don't explain tomarch and our usus can still use
interesting features as well.
That's basically the mainchallenge.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
That's a pretty hard line to walk.
So that's a pretty big range outof curiosity what are you what
kinds of things are you doing totry and account for that.
I mean how are you finding thatmiddle ground.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Well what I usually try to do is find the features
and the settings that prettymuch everyone has to use.
So far for creating such apresentation there's probably a
date on which the presentationwill be and some slides and some
questions in there and all thatstuff.
And that's a set of features andsettings that is visible right
(03:34):
away.
And then for the power users Ihides a lot of stuff so they're
easy to reach but the users thatare very good at computers won't
see them right away so theydon't get distracted or scared
from them.
And that's usually how how I tryto solve it.
And I just test along with bothranges of teachers through
(03:54):
testing prototypes prototypesconducting interviews as well
observing teachers whenever Ican.
Lots of them are not really afan of that book.
Speaker 5 (04:04):
So let me see why.
What is it to like.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Well they don't really like that.
I'm then sitting there in theirclassroom and attending a class
like for a big lecture.
It's usually fine because that'sthe hundreds of people anyway.
Yeah but for a small work roomof about 20 students they think
that it's too distracting tohave me there or they get
distracted by having me there.
(04:31):
I guess I can understand that'sthe kind of fight that I get
from them.
No one's really explicit aboutwhy they don't want me to be
there.
Speaker 6 (04:38):
But that's that's my guess.
They just say they just say no Idon't want to do that pretty
much or don't respond at all.
So they ignore you completely.
Yes some do.
Speaker 5 (04:49):
Ok nice.
Nice.
Yeah right.
Right.
Not like a person.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
So just to back up what was sort of the motivation
for this product in the firstplace.
How did this come about.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Well two guys that founded this company started
about four years ago almost fiveand they obviously were in
university as well.
And they noticed that not a lotof technology was used to
enhance classes.
Usually schools an Elementzwhich is a learning management
(05:26):
system and there are usually theschedules and the gratings and
all that stuff like Blackboardor some.
Yeah exactly.
And during classes not Love wasdone using technology or when it
was used often it wasn't reallyan improvement.
So they decided to start acompany that aims at improving
(05:47):
education.
So we have a whole range oftools and they're all integrated
into one platform as well forpeople who want that.
And we basically tried to findwhatever teachers or students
need now and try to build that.
So it basically came from a badexperience like a lot of things.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
Yeah like a lot of things you know they say
necessity is the mother ofinvention.
Definitely.
I guess this fits the bill interms of the students on the
receiving end.
Are you getting any reactionfrom them based on what you're
doing.
I mean how hungry are the forthis how they feel about it.
How are they reacting to it.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Usually very positive.
It kind of depends on the toolssome tools are more an
improvement for teachers andsome are more for students.
For instance we have one toolthere allows teachers to create
assignments and then studentsneed to end in their work and
then very few each other's work.
And usually the first time thatstudents use that they don't
(06:48):
really like it because it's morework for them and students like
to spend as little time aspossible on their studies.
Usually of course.
So in the beginning they don'treally like it and you kind of
get them saying Oh but isn't itthe teacher's job to grade each
other's work and all that stuffis just taking too much time.
(07:10):
But after a while they start tosee the failure in it.
So that was really nice.
And some things are more obviouslike the value for students so
than they like it straight awayand usually they're already
relieved that our interface ismore intuitive than for instance
blackboards.
I would hope so.
(07:32):
So already that is reallyrefreshing to them.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
Out of curiosity is you mentioned gamification.
Is that where the game fixationthing is coming from where you
feel like you want a higherlevel of engagement.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Yeah engagement and attendance is usually are
usually the things that we tryto improve.
That basically drives a lot ofour we do increasing engagement
attendance.
So even though a subject mightbe really boring to a student we
are hoping to make the course asa whole interesting enough and
(08:05):
fun enough to just do it anywayeven though it might not like
the subject so that either theyget a better grade or they might
start to like the subject as awhole which is even better.
For instance when we've had somestudents who were doing the
advanced math course it was amasters on the technical end of
(08:29):
university here and it was superdry really dry stuff and really
hard as well.
But the teachers there made itso much fun.
They came to fight the entirecourse partly using our system
and partly using their owntechniques and it was so nice
that the whole course was reallyfun.
(08:50):
Students say a lot of fun doingit even though the subject
matter was really boring andsuper hard and they got so much
positive reaction to that.
The grades went up a lot and theteacher of course even got
elected to Teacher of the yearfor two times.
While yes every helps a lot andwe tried to do it to gain like
(09:13):
getting points for everythingand leaderboards everywhere but
more using a little moreabstract game vacation
techniques wherever possible.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
And that's that's what I'm curious about.
Can you give me an example ofwhy you in this particular you
know this math course you'retalking about.
Can you give me an example ofhow that would work how you took
something it was dry and turnedit into something that's a lot
more engaging.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Yeah I wanted to explore this correctly.
They did.
They had lectures.
And during those lectures theyhad a lot of questions that the
students needed to answersometimes even in groups and
depending on how well they didthat the top so many students
top 20 or something they couldsort of unlock another class.
(10:01):
So there was an extra class forthe people who really did their
best and during that other classthey could ask them anything
they got more information morein-depth really personalized to
do what they actually needed toknow.
So that was really valuable forthe students because then the
(10:22):
teachers could really cover whatknowledge you didn't have yet
instead of just covering somegeneral knowledge which is
usually what they do in alecture of hundreds of people.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
Sure.
So the accumulation of points issort of unlocking a more
personalized experience for themwhere they feel like they're not
being preached to from on highanymore it's more of a more of a
one to one kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
Yeah exactly.
And also gave the students somemore control because if you
didn't want all that you couldjust not participate.
Well it was kind of up to them.
But if you did participate wellprobably a better grade.
So they could actually get stuffthat was of value to them.
(11:06):
And that was also fun and thatmade it more intrinsically
motivating to them.
Speaker 4 (11:10):
Yeah I think that's an important point because a lot
of the stuff that I see is sortof mandated use.
Right.
We're an organization comes outwith a set way of doing things
even if they're doing thingslike came to for occasion where
the goal is to make it moreimmersive more interactive more
fun.
It still becomes this mandatethat you must do these things
and I think the minute it feelsto me I'd like to know what you
(11:31):
think that the minute youintroduce those rules you have
to do this.
People just automatically evenif it's interesting to them just
sort of turn it off like youknow I've got nothing in my life
that told me I have to do this.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Yeah exactly.
And there has been research doneabout that as well.
And they found into if peoplelike to do something.
I think the specific experimentwas to have people who liked to
draw stuff and they had somepeople who'd like to draw stuff.
Then they started paying all ofthose people to draw stuff.
(12:06):
So then the people who werenormally drawing started
drawing.
And then after a while they juststopped paying them to draw
stuff and then everybody stoppedbecause even the people who did
like to draw the money thing gotconnected to it and in-game
information is usually points orvirtual money or whatever that
(12:28):
are connected to it and that wastaking away their intrinsic
motive motivation was gone aswell.
Right.
For what.
Yeah.
So that is really tricky aswell.
That is something we need toreally be careful about as well
because if a student does like asubject we don't want to ruin
that by having gamification.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
Well yeah because when the motivation becomes I'm
looking for the right word butsort of corrupted in a way yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
Even even if we start motivating students still needs
to be a long lasting motivation.
Intrinsic instead of onlyextrinsic.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
I agree totally.
So to break out of this onething I'm curious about is your
journey up to now.
OK.
How did you wind up here.
What's your journey been to touse your experience.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Well it was kind of accidental really.
Yeah I've been drawing andpainting all of my life so far.
And to do that a lot whilegrowing up.
So by the end of high school youto make up my mind what I was
going to study or if I was goingto study something and I wanted
(13:39):
to go to art school for visualart painting and drawing and
that kind of stuff.
And so I went there for aninterview to get interviewed and
approved.
And while I was there having aninterview with a guy I was
thinking oh my god this isenough for me because usually
people who study that becomeindependent artists I would just
(14:04):
basically have to make art allday and find people to buy it
which is not my thing.
Speaker 6 (14:10):
So you immediately felt like wait a minute and at
some point we were like OK wellnever mind I just got to go.
This is not for me.
Wow.
I mean did you like that tooksome joy out of out of drawing
or making art.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
No not at all.
I was afraid that making it myjob would take out the joy and
having to do it.
And the older sales staff now.
Yeah I heard.
So then I needed to findsomething else.
And I didn't want to dosomething creative.
And while looking at otherschools and what kind of
(14:47):
programs there were I cameacross what I ended up studying
which was called InteractiveMedia at the time.
So I went there to an open dayand I really liked it.
It was still creative but withcomputers obviously but also
more focused on actual people.
(15:09):
So instead of making art andthen trying to find someone to
go with it you would have peoplewith a problem and then using
art to solve their problem.
So I would be sure that whateverI was making was actually useful
to someone and science was goingto use it and be happy with it.
And that's just sort of clickedwith you.
Yes definitely.
(15:30):
And even then in the beginning Ididn't know that there was such
a thing as user experience orinteraction design.
But the first year was verymixed.
So we had a lot of everything sosome programming some marketing
some visual design some Intrexondesign kind of courses some
(15:51):
research.
And it was basically during thatyear or the second year that I
kind of got interested in thewhole information architecture
interaction design line ofcourses.
So I started using the electivesthat fit with that and in the
end internship and my thesis.
(16:12):
So I kind of I'm kind of gladthat I found that that study to
do because otherwise I wouldnever have ended up in this
field maybe.
What kind of place did youintern at my current job
actually.
Yeah yeah.
So I started off here as anintern and then I did my thesis
here and never left.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
Interesting so how many years have you been there
now.
Over four years.
OK.
Which honestly in today'sclimate for a lot of people is a
very long time.
You know surrealism seems likeon the surface but that kind of
longevity in all honesty isgetting harder to come by.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
Yeah and I see that in articles and on the internet
but I don't really understandwhy that is.
To be honest with you.
Maybe it's a difference inculture or something.
I'm from the internet could beand here as far as I can so it's
not really a thing to switchjobs every year.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
So if that difference is cultural I'm curious.
I wonder how much of that has todo with the culture of the
organization not knowing whatyou know and being exposed to to
other other things or otherplaces via the Internet.
Do you sense any differencebetween the organizational
culture that you're used to andmaybe what exists in other
(17:30):
places.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Well I think I think we have a pretty typical sort of
environment.
So I sort of identify with thestuff that I see on the internet
about startups in othercountries though maybe a little
less focused on getting as bigas possible and earning as much
money as possible.
(17:52):
Well though a lot of otherstartups are more I think
startups are in general moremission driven and not yet very
money driven.
You know what I mean.
Yeah I do.
That's the idea that I get.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
I do so I mean for for four years with where you've
where you've been.
My guess would be and you couldtell me that that motivation
hasn't changed for you yet orfor the organization that you're
with.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
No not at all.
Pretty much all of us aregetting more and more excited
about what we're doing.
That's fantastic in thebeginning in the beginning I
remember our platform was prettycrappy and then we had a lot of
negative or mad reactions fromour users.
So that pretty much required ourintrinsic motivation to just
(18:40):
keep going and keep going andbelieve we could make it better.
And at some point they willthey're going to love it and
we're now up to a point wherepeople realize what we're doing.
And of course we we still needto improve it a lot.
But people are excited aboutwhat we have now.
So that is really motivating tome hearing that we actually are
(19:03):
improving people's lives becausethat's where we were setting out
to do.
And that makes a lot of fun.
So how big is your organizationcomfort people.
About 15 full time people.
Speaker 7 (19:16):
And then about three or four interns.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
Has that Make-Up been pretty steady in terms of
keeping the same people for thesame length of time.
Speaker 7 (19:25):
Not necessarily the same people we do have at the
moment we do have a core team ofwhich I think about AIDS have
been here for two or more yearsand I think four or five of us
have been here since pretty muchthe beginning.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
And then we do have a lot of interns coming and going
of easily.
Well I was I was discussing thiswith a colleague last week
coincidentally and we werewondering how many people have
worked at our company and wehaven't figured it out yet.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
But a lot yeah I mean that change you know change
people people coming in and outis is natural.
I mean I guess part of thereason I was asking Number one
it's inspiring.
OK and it's it's really positiveto hear that you feel like you
know for the most part you'remore motivated now than you were
(20:25):
when you started.
And that tells me a couple ofthings.
It tells me number one thatyou're doing something that's
valuable and important.
And number two it tells me thatyou're getting confirmation of
that from people.
Yeah.
What what kinds of things comeacross to that make you feel
like man I love this job.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
When for instance I I speak to teachers and they they
see a design that I've workedon.
So maybe I'm doing user tests ordoing interviews and teachers
telling me that they needcertain stuff or they would like
to have certain stuff and then Ishow it to them when they're
there like oh my god this iswhat I needed.
(21:06):
So some of them are really soexcited because they've wanted
to change their courses sinceforever but they could never
find the tools to do so.
And if they would do it in a lowtech way it would just cost way
too much time.
So sometimes they get soenthusiastic and they're all
finally finally I can make mycourses better.
(21:27):
And that makes me always feel sohappy that I could be a part of
that.
And also we hear from studentsthat really liked to do a
certain course and that coursecourses used our software that
is really nice as well.
Sometimes we even that we oncehad a teacher who sent us the
grades of his class from lastyear before he used our
(21:50):
platform.
Speaker 8 (21:50):
And then the grades of this year while using our
platform and the average wasabout I think two points higher.
Wow.
And he said the only thing Ichanged was using your software.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
And then all of us were I guess this is where we
are doing it for Essy and that'sand it's wonderful to get that
kind of validation and I thinkthat does not happen for a lot
of folks.
And I think that's why it's hardfor people quite frankly.
You know we talked about jobjumping a couple of minutes ago
and I I always feel like maybethat's part of it.
(22:24):
I think you can labor in thisfield for a long time and not
get any confirmation that you'reactually sort of making a
difference you know and at theend of the day I think for a lot
of us in this field that makinga difference part matters more
than you know the money part orthe upward mobility or the you
know any other any other part ofus.
Speaker 8 (22:43):
Yeah I think so too at least I hope so.
That's certainly the impressionI get.
I think that is the case.
Yeah.
And you can only do so muchbased on pure motivation at some
point.
You're just gonna run out of it.
You need something that reallyfills your motivation.
Baskett or so to speak.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
Yeah.
So what do you think.
I don't even know if this is thequestion I've been asking
anyway.
Is that something that you thinkpeople in in all aspects of this
field with were termite usersexperience or from mission
architecture or design or evendevelopment.
You're right.
To some degree are entrepreneursthat come up with products like
(23:24):
the one that you guys are doing.
Is that intrinsic motivationthat Torna need to do something
for the greater good so tospeak.
Is that something that you'reborn with and as such you
naturally gravitate towardsthese things or does it come
through experience andreinforcement.
Well that's a good question andknow that I always wonder you
(23:45):
know is this is there somethingin us that we're sort of
compelled to do what we do.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
I think so but I think most people feel the need
to do something good for theworld or for humanity or
whatever.
It's just a matter of yourdefinition of good.
I think there a lot of friendsinstance lawyers are judges when
I do something good as well theyjust might have a different
(24:11):
definition of good.
Speaker 7 (24:14):
Or they might value other things before doing good.
I think that's a huge group ofpeople as well.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
I think there are very little people who actually
set out to do somethingconstructive.
There is a group but I think Idon't think it's a majority.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
Do you think part of the problem could be that in
some cases you're rewarded forthe wrong things.
In other words in a lot of casespeople find themselves sort of
banging their heads up againstthe wall because the culture
values.
Speaker 9 (24:47):
Other things.
Yeah or maybe you can get paidenough to do good stuff and you
need to survive.
So maybe you get stuck intoanother line of work just
because you need to pay rent anddo groceries and all that stuff.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
Has there ever been any point in your own career
where you felt frustrateddisheartened felt like you know
maybe I don't know if I cancontinue to do this.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Yeah because like I said we're a startup so there
wasn't a lot of money.
Our CEO is always really donehis best to not have investors
so he never had a partyinvesting in us which is
something we take pride inbecause it means that we can do
what we want to do and improveeducation and have an investor
(25:33):
wanting to cash out as fast aspossible and therefore stopping
innovation.
Speaker 9 (25:40):
But because of that we also usually have a lot of
money to spend also on salaries.
So there have been about a yearor so that it was kind of hard
to get through the month andsometimes the last few days I
didn't really have that muchmoney anymore so we would have
(26:01):
to eat like ramen or just rest.
Speaker 10 (26:05):
There was some sauce for three days until the next
paycheck came in and after awhile they kind of got
exhausting as well.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
It's stressful to have to watch your bank account
all the time of course.
But I think the work that we dokept me going and the team we
have an amazing team.
So such lovely people I considerpretty much every one of them
close friends and that reallyhelps that feeling like you are
(26:37):
all in this together.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We were all we were all livinglike that basically and we were
all doing doing awesome stuffand we all felt like if we just
make it better and better andbetter the product than where
we're going to just tell we'relicenses to universities and
(26:57):
they'll have more money than wecan get paid more.
So we kind of saw it as our ownresponsibility to make the
company more money and thereforemaking ourselves more money
instead of kind of being avictim and saying I don't get
paid enough I'm going to leaveis there.
Speaker 4 (27:14):
Out of curiosity is there any sort of sharing of
ownership or shares in thecompany in other words.
Is there any sort of formalstructure in place where if the
company does well you knowyou're sort of brought along
with that success.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
Yeah if the company gets sold everyone who works
there at that point in time willget a share of that money.
Wonderful.
And how big that share isdepends on how long you've
worked here.
Also our boss really wants youto pay us as much as you can so
(27:50):
whenever there's more moneyavailable he raises our
salaries.
Fantastic.
So it's not that I need you tofight for it.
I know that he wants to.
So whenever you can he does andit's rare.
Speaker 4 (28:05):
OK.
And again I can't speak foroverseas organizations
necessarily given that I'm basedin the U.S.
but I do think that's rare.
And I think it's it's a lessonthat a lot of organizations once
they get past the startup phaseeither sort of forget or never
properly learned in the firstplace and that is if you want
people to be down there with youin the trenches you know and you
(28:27):
want them to care about as muchas you care about it and you
want them to give 1000 percentlike you believe you are.
Then you have to allow them toshare truly in that success.
They have to be a part of it.
Speaker 8 (28:41):
Yeah we share the bad times when we share the good
times.
Basically we cannot share thehorrible times.
And then when it gets goodyou're like OK.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
Right from where you started to where you are.
Are there any either people orexperiences or instances that
you feel like have been a hugeinfluence on what you do and how
you do.
Speaker 9 (29:07):
Well for most of my time here I've been the only
designer.
There have been some times wherewe had one or two others but
they never stayed fortunately.
And whenever we did have anotherdesigner I was more experienced
in in general and alsoexperience within the company.
(29:27):
So I never really had a leadertype or someone I could live on
but I did have the fullresponsibility of.
Of.
Making.
The designers work.
And I think having theirresponsibility and just having
to deliver was something thatreally motivated me to learn a
(29:50):
lot.
And I did learn a lot during mytime here.
When I look back at my firstscience I'm pretty embarrassed.
Speaker 5 (29:58):
We all are.
We all share that story.
I couldn't have made this.
Speaker 8 (30:08):
I think I think having a responsibility in just
having to figure out what I needto learn and then how I am going
to learn it in time for my nextdelivery something that really
really shaped me.
And we also always had a verylike all my co-workers whenever
(30:29):
I asked for feedback Tuesdayusually showed that my designs.
Speaker 9 (30:33):
And then they gave feedback on it and they were
always very critical.
They never tried to spare myfeelings or anything.
So sometimes they could bereally harsh but that was really
helpful as well because I didn'tlike those sessions in the
beginning.
Sure I just wanted to get mydesigns as good as possible so
(30:54):
that I could finally get somegood feedback from them.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
How did you learn to become to become more
comfortable with that.
Because you know it's hard tohear the cruiser's really kind
it's hard to hear especially ifyou care about what you do.
Speaker 9 (31:05):
Yeah and I know it's not about me but it's also about
my work.
So it's still a bit hard.
I don't know.
I think it helps to do thosesessions often at some point you
just get more used to it aswell.
Like for instance presenting inthe beginning that's also super
(31:27):
scary.
But the more you do it theeasier it gets.
And also yeah just making mydesigns is as good as I could
and asking for direct feedback.
Also really helps becausesometimes they get a lot of
feedback about stuff that Iwasn't even wanting feedback on
or that wasn't even done yet orsomething like that.
(31:51):
So I'm priming them byexplaining the context of the
design and why it is like it isand what aspects of it I want
feedback on that really helpedas well.
Speaker 4 (32:04):
So would you be as successful.
Do you think without thosedifficult conversations.
Speaker 9 (32:09):
No no not at all.
Because usually the feedback isreally good and sometimes the
feedback doesn't make sense tome.
But it's still interestingbecause it's a point of view.
They apparently have a point ofview at that time that I hadn't
considered yet.
And sometimes the users likewhen I make another version of
(32:31):
my design and I get testedsometimes the users don't agree
on the feedback that the teamgave me.
Interesting but that's fine.
At least I checked becausesometimes it is better.
Sometimes it's reallyimprovement because I'd rather
get some harsh feedback from myco-workers than from the users.
(32:51):
Because when we get feedbackfrom the users that means that
someone did a class or maybe anentire course and we sort of
ruined it in some way or form sothen I read it get it from the
team there from the customersusers.
Speaker 6 (33:08):
Basically you have to find out that you're wrong you'd
rather have it happeninternally.
Yeah exactly.
And that makes it way more easyto digest and to just receive
that feedback as well.
Right.
Speaker 4 (33:22):
Out of curiosity have you ever rolled anything out to
users that they just unanimouslycomplained about.
But then you've sort of foundout through use that it was
actually beneficial to them eventhough they were never had those
instances where people you knowsort of rose up and said This is
(33:42):
terrible we're never going touse this and then they're used
told you otherwise.
Speaker 9 (33:47):
I cannot think of an instance where it happened.
Speaker 4 (33:50):
I'm just I'm always curious about the disconnect
between what people say theywant and what they actually want
because there are so manyinstances of that.
Well something that we do havehappening often is that teachers
or students say they can dosomething or that for instance
(34:10):
when we were building thembecause she spoke to.
Speaker 8 (34:13):
Us.
I spoke to a lot of teachers andthey were all very confident
sounding like I really need todo those kinds of assignments
and to do those all the time nowand.
And then when we made that tofrom then on we could actually
see what they were doing and howthey would construct the
assignments.
And then sometimes we getnegative reaction from them
(34:36):
saying well it took the studentsway too much time to give the
feedback or they couldn't findit for you.
Well like a negative experience.
And then we went to look howthey set up the assignments.
Often it was the case that theyjust set up the assignment in a
horrible way.
So it wasn't really because ofthe door but because the
(35:00):
students had to peer review forinstance work of 20 pages using
about 10 criteria which is waytoo large because you cannot
remember 10 criteria whilereading so much stuff and then
annotating all the time.
It takes a lot of time and a waytoo much cognitive effort.
So that was kind of funny thatwe were seeing those teachers
(35:24):
that were so confident they weregoing to do this well kind of
screw up.
Speaker 11 (35:29):
Well not funny but funny but you know I don't
really know what you mean.
Speaker 4 (35:36):
I mean in those instances you know to what
degree is it within your powerto build in some kind of
constraints to try and alleviatethat because at some point you
think to yourself OK it may verywell be that some of these folks
aren't going to change.
You probably know this as wellas I do.
You can train people you canencourage them to do certain
things but at some point youalmost always have to try and
(35:58):
take a step to constrain some ofthat behavior with the software
because you know you're notgoing to get there.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
Yeah definitely.
And apparently not all of themknew how to set up a good beer.
Two big assignments.
So I created some new designsand built in some constraints.
Not really constraints becausethey still can create an
assignment with 10 criteria.
But after the fifth or sixthafter that the button allows you
(36:29):
to add another one.
What have some text next to itthat says we advise you to not
use more than blah blah criteriaand the button itself gets a
little less attention grabbingas well.
So at least if someone isn'taware that they're doing it
wrong will now know it and canthat be like oh OK well I need
to do this differently.
(36:50):
And also we created someplaceholder text in the criteria
creation Baartman that kind ofillustrated what a good criteria
is.
Speaker 4 (37:00):
See another two great examples.
Those are two great examples youbuilt two things in that didn't
force anybody to do anythingright.
Because it goes against humannature.
Yeah.
That the same time you'reproviding necessary guidance.
I mean similar to actualsolutions Yeah.
Speaker 11 (37:14):
So pretty much they can still screw it up but it
will be harder.
Speaker 6 (37:22):
It will be harder for them to accidentally screw it
up.
That's kind of what we weregoing for.
Did you see any change as aresult.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
Well so far so good.
We just had the summer vacationand we changed that.
Right before the summervacation.
So currently we're still in thefirst quarter of the school
year.
So not a lot of concrete resultsyet but so far as it can get we
have had less complaints so faron assignments.
(37:51):
But the evaluations still haveto come in.
Speaker 4 (37:55):
It sounds like that's a step in the right direction
because like we said thetradeoff is always you can't
force anybody to do anything buta lot of times as you said
people aren't aware yeah thatthey're doing something that is
that is sort of making it hardand being aware of the words
you're doing is a bitunconventional.
Speaker 3 (38:13):
That's that's the key because some teachers just do
things differently or they aretrying to innovate using
existing tools or whatever andwe want to allow for that.
So you can do whatever you want.
Well we tried to guide you intodoing the correct thing which is
the hardest balancing act in theworld.
Speaker 4 (38:33):
But it's part and parcel of everything that we do.
Designers are you actors orproduct developers of any kind.
You're always straddling theline between trying to draw hard
boundaries around things and atthe same time giving human
beings the essential freedom tobe themselves you know which is
how everybody does things.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
Exactly.
It's like there's the famousimage of Bath's through the bark
with some grass and then you seelike the people don't don't go
around the corner but they justcough through the grass and then
you see new paths emergingthere.
It's kind of like that right tocut the corner Yeah.
And you can keep them on theback by putting fences
(39:12):
everywhere but that would justmake people miserable.
Speaker 6 (39:15):
Yeah and they'll probably find another way
although they will always find away.
Speaker 4 (39:20):
Right.
Right right.
You know I mean I always feellike some of the biggest aha
moment you could ever have inproduct development is watching
the work arounds that peoplecome up with Yeah in order to
avoid using what's in front ofthem.
Speaker 11 (39:34):
Definitely.
Speaker 10 (39:35):
I remember you had a gesture of that in your book and
that was so eye opening to me.
I was like oh yes the work aroseas something since then I've
been really paying attention tothat and it's really interesting
because every time now that theuser mentions to me like oh I
can do this or it's hard to dothis.
(39:55):
And I just say okay well maybeit's hard but how do you do it
right.
Speaker 4 (40:00):
And it's so interesting to see what they
come up with sometimes and thevolume of effort that's involved
and that that solution.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
And also when they do come up with the workaround that
costs a lot of effort thenapparently they want it back.
Speaker 10 (40:16):
So it's a goal that they really have and they're
dedicated to that yeah.
So if you make a fix for thatit's going to be right for them
for sure right.
Speaker 4 (40:24):
And they often can't tell you you know what it is
exactly what they want.
But what you're absolutely rightif you understand what the goal
is if you understand whatthey're trying to accomplish
Yeah that's how you get there.
Speaker 9 (40:36):
And you know it's important to them as well.
The goal is important to them sothat is validated as well.
Speaker 4 (40:41):
Yeah because I mean like I said You see you see
people do an extraordinaryamount of work just to avoid
using workflow sequence that hasmaybe you know four or five
steps.
Yeah it's crazy.
It is crazy.
So we're at about 10 minutesthat's what I usually like to do
here is I want to ask you somehotseat questions do things that
(41:03):
aren't necessarily directlyrelated to you so you can answer
them however you like but thisis really just more about you.
So the first question is whatword or phrase do you use to
offer something you say a lot.
Speaker 11 (41:18):
That's not how I decided to develop first.
Do you realize how many times aday.
About three times a day asdevelopers like to say you love
creative liberty or maybesometimes they try and cut
(41:38):
corners.
Speaker 10 (41:39):
I don't know but sometimes I'm looking over their
shoulders wearing it variesquite a small office so all the
developers like within twometres of my desk.
And sometimes I see them makingsomething that well but that's
not how I designed it.
Look at the images.
Speaker 5 (41:57):
So do they I know to hide their work for me.
Speaker 11 (41:59):
No they do it.
They know I'll find outeventually.
There is no escape.
I will find out.
You can run but you can't hidethe spirit.
Speaker 4 (42:11):
Do they ever come up with something that is better.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Yeah that has happened sometimes.
There was a use case that Iforgot for instance.
And then they came across it andthey just made up something for
it and then it was like oh nice.
I completely forgot about that.
Speaker 5 (42:27):
Very nice but often it's worse often that's not the
way I just like unfortunately.
Speaker 4 (42:37):
Tell me what are you.
Speaker 8 (42:39):
Not very good at I'm not very good at planning stuff.
Managing I'm getting better butit's a weakness though that I've
never been good at that.
It doesn't come natural to me.
I'm a bit chaotic and I don'tlike to be superstructures.
But there is a certain amount ofstructure that I need to be able
(43:00):
to work with other people so I'mkind of trying to find a balance
there.
Speaker 4 (43:03):
I think for some people specially folks who are
much more red brained I meanthat's sort of a life long
struggle.
Speaker 10 (43:10):
Yeah.
I don't expect to ever get goodat it.
That's OK as long as you keeptrying.
I'm aiming for good enough.
Speaker 12 (43:15):
You know you go good enough.
Yeah.
I'm not very good at exercisingeither.
Speaker 5 (43:27):
Who is I guess not a lot of people are.
Speaker 4 (43:31):
Tell me something that's true about you extra
design or product developmentthat almost nobody agrees with
you.
Speaker 8 (43:38):
Well in my experience like pretty ambit within my
company stuff that pretty muchno one agrees on is that rules
don't always matter.
Sometimes a coworker comesacross one of those design rules
for instance.
You need to be able to reacheverything within three clicks.
Speaker 10 (44:02):
One of my favorites the app that kind of stuff
sometimes someone comes with oneof those things and then they
come to me and they say well ittakes way too many clicks to get
to here or there.
Speaker 8 (44:14):
Or they say oh this button needs to look like this
because of what.
And then I in my usual answer islike well OK that might be a
rule but it doesn't necessarilyapply in this situation.
Speaker 5 (44:28):
That's usually a nice discussion though we have the
nice desk.
I get the feeling you're beingvery polite.
Speaker 10 (44:38):
I don't really like to like feed other stuff.
I don't mean like to be.
I know I'm the designer and I'mgoing to do it like this.
No matter what you think.
Speaker 8 (44:48):
Sure I like it if we were all on the same page so I
usually try to come up witharguments to explain to them why
I'm saying this and that's theright way to do it.
It often takes a lot of timebecause most people think stuff
from certain websites is morereliable than my word and I can
understand that everybody issort of searching for an
(45:10):
absolute you know a silverbullet method.
Speaker 4 (45:13):
And I've been guilty of using that term myself to be
honest but I really believe thatthere are no absolutes.
No you find one rule thatapplies to every single
situation.
Do you think that it's justnatural human beings to want
that.
Speaker 8 (45:28):
Kind of simplicity.
I think so because it makes itway easier to understand
everything around you.
If you only have to remember onechunk of knowledge and you can
apply that to everything yourlife that is really easy because
you learn a small thing and thenyou can do everything.
But if you have to look for newpatterns everywhere you go like
(45:51):
friends I think I think this isreally baked into our biology
because when you've had anencounter with a tiger back in
the days and you run intoanother Tiger you're going to be
OK.
This one's probably going to bedangerous as well.
You're not going to find out ohthis tiger dangerous.
(46:11):
Oh is that Tiger dangerous.
I think we tried to look forconsistencies and patterns
everywhere but sometimes theyjust don't exist or there might
be a pattern.
But this might be an exceptionto the pattern.
It is also a possibility and Ido think that though those kinds
of rules are helpful as astarting point.
(46:32):
But you do need to investigatewhether this might still be a
different situation.
Speaker 4 (46:39):
I agree.
I agree.
And I think it's the right wayto go about doing just about
anything.
You know you have to stay open.
Yeah I think so do.
So are you into music.
Yeah.
So here comes this one.
If you were only allowed to pickone band or song that you could
listen to for the rest of yourlife what would it be.
Speaker 5 (46:58):
Oh my god that's a hard question for the rest of my
life.
Well I would fail thiscompletely.
Speaker 3 (47:06):
Well that is difficult because you want to
have something that you canlisten to at parties or in
concert and dance to but also ischill for when you're out for
instance on a train you're doingsomething wrong.
OK so let's say band not song.
Yeah definitely.
(47:27):
That is hard.
A band that I really love isdire straits pretty much
everything.
Mark Knopfler but it's notreally party music's more chill
music.
They have pretty wide rangethough yeah they do.
So I think that would be themost suitable but I would need a
second one for more partiesthough.
Speaker 12 (47:47):
OK.
You're welcome.
Who's your party back.
Who's my party back.
So you went there.
Speaker 8 (47:56):
Well that would be something cheerful.
So I would take some rock n rollrockabilly kind of because they
condense it so little Richard orsomething Richard.
Not so we have dancing musicinto music.
Speaker 4 (48:11):
All right cool.
And of course in a perfect worldyou to have much more than that
as we definitely did.
I'm glad we have more.
Amen amen.
You know I'm the type of personwhere I get bored with what I'm
saying to sort of on a dailybasis Yeah you know it's sort of
it's sort of never changes forme and I'm just always looking
(48:32):
for something else and there area few things that get me as
excited as when I hear somethingthat just blows me away.
Yes.
You know like wow I can'tbelieve that this exists and I
didn't know.
Speaker 10 (48:43):
But definitely.
And those kinds of moments Iusually have with like hard rock
or heavy metal girls is just soenergetic and so more intense
than that usually with that kindof music when I come across new
songs.
This is it dances so nice.
I really love that.
Speaker 8 (49:04):
I'm a big fan of the Discover Weekly feature of
Spotify.
I love that because I get newmusic every week guaranteed and
that can lead you to watch anentire album and maybe a similar
other band or artist and it getsthe ball rolling.
Speaker 4 (49:19):
Yeah and that's why I mean we'll wrap this up but I
feel like it always bothers mewhen I hear people say well
there's just there's no goodmusic anymore there's no bands
making great music there'snothing you know interesting or
innovative or inventive and I'mlike you know there's so much
there's a universe out there.
When I from high school tocollege in particular I mean you
(49:41):
had to work to find somethingthat wasn't mainstream you know
radio the same six bands thatgot played.
There was physical effortinvolved just trying to find out
about this stuff and now it'slike when you open up Google
you're there.
Speaker 10 (49:55):
Yes everyone just can record some stuff you don't
have to get a record label andloads of money and all that
stuff.
Everyone is just making musicand it's amazing.
Speaker 4 (50:05):
And that's a gift.
To me that's a gift for me.
So what is your wedding band.
Oh you're going to make meanswer this.
Speaker 13 (50:12):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (50:15):
So you can ask the question but I've never in my
life been able to because thereare things that I there are so
many things that I love.
And I love with with equalpassion.
I love metal I love jazz.
I love punk.
I love classical music.
I have heard country that hasblown me away although not a
whole lot.
(50:36):
Same same there isn't a genrewhere I haven't heard something
that made me go wow I meanthat's amazing.
My kids place police to me allthe time that they're listening
to that I would never seek outokay otherwise.
And I still manage to be flooredhere and there.
One band I think quite honestlyif I was absolutely forced to
(50:58):
choose one band it wouldprobably be Black Sabbath
because their entire career andI'm including the years with
Ronnie James Dio vs Ozzy Osbornebecause it stylistically they
were all over the place.
I mean even those early or sixSabbath records have a
tremendous amount of jazz inthem.
Yeah as much as anything else Imean they swing.
(51:21):
In some cases it's you knowthere's there's quiet moments
there's loud moments there'spure blues there's just sort of
all over the place there's a lotof it what's word variety that's
the word.
Speaker 6 (51:33):
So I think it's you I think if you made me that was
sort of be my choice but goodchoice but I do so grudgingly.
Well it isn't terrible questionbut you started.
Speaker 5 (51:43):
I know and that's why.
And kudos to you for turninginto something.
All right Astrid it has been anabsolute pleasure talking with
you.
Speaker 4 (51:52):
I wish you much success in your career.
Thank you.
And it seems like you will findit all by yourself given your
attitude toward things.
I want you to know that that'srare thinking and you should
protect it.
That's very nice of you to say.
And I think it's obvious.
OK.
Success comes in my opinion fromthe intrinsic motivation that
(52:14):
you're talking about from caringvery deeply about what you do
and the result of what you do.
And I think that you've got thatin spades.
Speaker 3 (52:20):
Cool.
I think it definitely helps you.
Speaker 4 (52:22):
All right well you take care and until next time.
Yes.
I wish you well.
Speaker 3 (52:26):
Have a nice day YouTube.
Speaker 1 (52:27):
Bye bye.
That wraps up this edition ofmaking us work.
Thanks for listening and I hopehearing these stories provide
some useful perspective andencouragement along with a
reminder that you're not alone.
Before I go I want you to knowthat you can find shows and
links to the things mentionedduring our conversation by
visiting give you X dot comslash podcast.
(52:50):
You'll also find links to moreUS resources on the web and
social media along with ways tocontact me if you're interested
in sharing your own story here.
Until next time this is Jonahtotally reminding you that it's
people like you who make youwork.
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