April 9, 2018 • 57 mins
My guest for this month's episode is Jason Bowden.
Jason’s core disciplines lie in 3 focused areas: UX design strategy, creative direction, and mentorship. He’s been a designer his entire life, but professionally since 2001 or so.
Jason believes in making the world a better place through design, and in building and coaching the next generation of user-centered, business-savvy, ethical designers.
And that last part is important — because as I’m sure you’ll pick up on, Jason truly believes in hope. He believes in the good in people and is steadfastly committed to his family, which drives both his work ethic and his worldview.
Here’s where you can find and follow Jason:
Website: jasonbowden.com
Twitter: @jason_bowden
LinkedIn: jasonbowden
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hello and welcome to making you work to give you X
podcast.
I'm your host Giuntoli and ourfocus here is on folks like you
doing real often unglamorouswork in the real world.
You'll hear about theirstruggles their successes and
their journey to and through thetrenches of product design
development and of course userexperience.
(00:32):
My guest today is Jason bood andJason's core disciplines are in
three focused areas.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
You design strategy creative direction and
mentorship.
He's been a designer his entirelife but professionally since
2001.
Jason believes firmly in makingthe world a better place through
design and in building andcoaching the next generation of
user centered business savvyethical designers.
And that last part is importantbecause as I'm sure you'll pick
(01:00):
up on Jason truly believes inhim he believes in the good in
people and he is steadfastlycommitted to his family which
drives both his work ethic andhis worldview.
Here's my conversation withJason Bowden on making ex work.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
So Jason how are you.
I'm great.
I'm terrific actually terrific.
Please do tell.
Well it's it's been a good sortof crazy week but in a very sort
of uplifting exciting way.
You know just a whole lot ofstuff going on.
I really like being busy and Ilike making progress on a lot of
fronts.
(01:36):
That stuff is really fun and Iwas also at the UIC conference.
So I came back a little inspiredlittle motivated.
So that's also good.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
Yeah it's always good to go to conferences like that.
For me at least made it so muchfor the other speakers in the
presentations but just theenergy that happens yeah it
happens like that I think it'sreally really positive to
charging in a way.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Well hundreds of like minded people are hanging out
together as always.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
Yeah yeah.
So what are you working on rightnow.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
I'm doing some sort of see I would call them updates
to existing things going on.
So I don't know if you'refamiliar with the Konno model
but you know it's this is thisway to sort of judge customer
delight.
Joan spel talks about all thetime know we were doing a bunch
of basic expectation upgradingwhich is great.
(02:27):
You know fixing things likesearch results or enhancing
search results I should say youknow looking at the ways that
users log into our site thatkind of thing.
So it's stuff that I reallyenjoy.
It's sort of this ongoingmaintenance but it's always
making things better.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Yeah I mean kind of.
I'm interested actually in howyou're approaching that and
implementing it because kind ofa seems to be one of those
things in terms of you know whatI've run across where it's
implemented either to greatsuccess.
Speaker 5 (02:59):
Or great frustration.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
So I'm curious about how it's working and your
organization and how it'sreceived and how or whatever
it's getting.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Yes.
It's it's a couple of levelsright.
So in theory it's great andeverybody.
It's easy to visualize and it'seasy to see.
And it makes for a lot of sensewhen I'm selling it to somebody.
But in the implementation partof it it's always a little bit.
I wouldn't I don't think it'sfair to call it frustrating but
it's definitely.
(03:30):
Much more difficult in practicethan it is in theory.
Put it that way.
You know we are constantlyevangelizing constantly selling
constantly testing and usinganalytics to to make sure that
we're focusing on the rightthings and a lot of times those
happen to be basic expectations.
So.
It sort of works out in theKonno framework if you will but
(03:53):
I wouldn't say that it's anoverall adopted mindset
everywhere but it's somethingthat we talk about all the time
in the context of fixing thingsand we should also probably and
this is my bet for anybody who'slistening that doesn't know what
kind of lives maybe we shouldtake a minute to to describe how
it works or at least how you'reapproaching it and yours.
Speaker 4 (04:14):
Yeah sure.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
So again using a GERITZ poor model I'm talking
about the basic things thatpeople expect from your from
your service or from yourwebsite.
His example is in a hotel.
You always expect hot water evenif you're on the 30th floor.
Must be right.
Yeah yeah exactly.
Exactly.
(04:36):
But the infrastructure involvedin actually you know pumping hot
water to the 30th floor andkeeping it circulating all the
time is a lot and it takes a lotof work and it's expensive.
And that's the that's the linethat we're always having to sell
on.
Which makes sense.
Yeah.
On top of that you know you haveyour standard sort of
(04:56):
progression of features thatyou're always releasing new
features release and alwaysimproving your product.
And then on top of that you havethese things called the riders
which are little maybe bits ofcopy or animations or ways to
give the user a feeling ofmeaning that really add to your
product.
But the the thing about those isyou cannot implement dividers
(05:20):
before you do the basicexpectations.
That's the bottom line I guess.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
Yeah.
Which which makes total sensethe progression of that where it
get a bottom line deal breakersor deal makers as it were that
absolutely have to beimplemented and if we don't at
least hit that bar everythingelse is not that which is
something that I think a lot ofpeople who do what we do
experience especially whenthey're working with clients or
(05:45):
working inside organizations.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Yeah exactly.
A product manager put it to mevery well he said you know we're
always chasing the shiny newtoy.
So any time we have a newfeature coming out all the teams
get diverted to that and we workon them release that.
Meanwhile you know people can'tmisspell a word on your website
because you haven't addressedthe search results algorithm.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
How much of a struggle is that for you to move
people's attention away from theeasily exciting stuff.
And back to the real problemswhich if you don't solve.
You don't get where you'regoing.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Sure it's it's getting easier.
You know I think it's it's humannature to always want to do the
new thing and build the newexperience and I am definitely
guilty of it too.
But we you know we we talk aboutthese things all the time and we
have visibility into the backlogand we can we can sort of try
(06:43):
and prioritize these things ifwe know somebody is in a certain
codebase and they're looking atsomething we can say oh can we
fix this as well.
So we look for opportunities youknow to put those in there where
we think it might be easy forthe dev team easy quote unquote.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
What's the what's the makeup of your team like your
immediate team and then yourinteraction with the developers
product managers et cetera etcetera.
Yep.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
So my immediate team there are four of us three
designers and then our managerand then we work hand in hand
with marketing you X team aswell.
And so we we sort of combine andthat makes maybe eight or nine
of us that are working on aproject at the same time in
various capacities.
(07:28):
That's from the design teamstandpoint on the dev side.
There are six Scrum Teams thatwe support.
So at any time we may be youknow working with the team in
Ireland or a team that we sitnear.
And our cold.
My coworker might be workingwith the same team doing
something similar.
(07:49):
Or.
Something completely differentit doesn't matter but we have to
be in constant communicationthat way.
So there's a lot of movingparts.
You know we rely heavily on ourproject managers and our product
managers to let us know thatwe're going the right direction.
Speaker 6 (08:04):
And you know I guess that the answer is we support
six Scrum Teams from adevelopment standpoint and it
gets messy sometimes I guess.
Yeah but it's fun.
You know we're very agile.
You know obviously and where wetry and work lean so we don't
have a lot of really heavyprocess.
And so obviously communicationis really big for us.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
I would think so with that much going on 6 I mean 16
is all with sounds like withactive projects.
Yep yep that's that's a lot ofworking on different parts of
the app.
Yeah how do you think when askedthis question.
Aside from obviously your PMshow do you manage that
interaction and communicationwith with these teams between
(08:48):
between you X efforts designefforts and those teams
especially when you'redisconnected right by geography.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Yeah great question.
It's really hard.
It's actually something that Istruggle with.
I have this designer brain thatis sort of you know always
moving in and trying to solveproblems and sometimes getting
down in the weeds of projectmanagement is really tough
especially when there's so muchgoing on at the same time.
(09:15):
So once again it's communicationit's always communication.
You know the when it breaks downthe first thing you look at is
where did the meeting not happenor where did the information get
transferred.
That made it so we shippedsomething that we really
shouldn't the ship.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
Can you give me an example of a time when that
happened.
Speaker 6 (09:35):
Yeah let me.
Let me think for a second if wecan talk about it.
Yeah.
I'm trying to figure out a wayto word it.
I'll be really general about itwhich I try and avoid.
Sure as far as communicationgoes but I'll design something
and then we'll talk about itwith the scrum team and then
later on when they're.
Doing their planning game andassigning points to it they'll
(09:57):
realize that they can't get itall in so even though sort of
pare back the scope a little andthey don't know that possibly
what they've cut out is integralto the experience that we
designed them and then we'llship something and you know look
at it during a review.
And I my guys you know we've gotto do this part.
(10:18):
This is key to it.
And then you know we're eitherscrambling because you know
we're just trying to get it intothe next release or you know and
to move it on her.
And that's sort of frequent youknow and you know people talk
about tradeoffs all the time andthat's one of those things but
if we don't talk about themstuff gets lost really quickly.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
Yeah.
And I think also you're notalone there because one piece
that's that's often missing inlarger organizations especially
with distributed teams of anykind is the sort of the ranking
part when it comes to featuresfunctionality or requirements.
Back to the Kunle model for asecond.
Right.
These are our must be.
These are the things thatabsolutely must be in this next
(11:00):
sprint in this next releasewhatever and when you're moving
really fast and you're jugglingmultiple parts.
That sometimes gets communicatedbut not to the degree that it
should exist where these kindsof things happens.
Right.
The dev team does what theythink needs to be done because
they're staring down a daterape.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Exactly that's exactly right.
And it's also a little morenuanced in that they may deliver
the functionality that you werelooking for but the animation
that alerts the user that thatfunctionality is happening.
They didn't ship right.
And suddenly it's broken.
It just it doesn't work for theuser because they have no idea
what's going on.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
Do you think that's a scent of just volume.
OK.
The volume of stuff that youhave to keep on top of that
things slip through the crackslike that.
Speaker 6 (11:46):
Yeah I think that's that's one of them.
I think it's just moving sofast.
I think that it is like you saidearlier we are always trying to
ahead of time.
So in this triangle of timequality or money the money and
the time are often immovable.
So we have to make tradeoffs andthat's where they get made.
(12:08):
Sometimes we if I'm not in theroom or if one of my
counterparts isn't in the roomyou know and don't get me wrong
are our development teams areamazing and they're really fast
and they're great at thinkingabout the user.
They obviously don't have theinsight that somebody from the
team has where they can say lookthis feedback here is so
important.
Otherwise we might as well notbuild this.
(12:30):
Yeah.
And you know those thoseconversations are are sort of
few and far between I think.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
Yeah and I honestly think that a lot of developers
in particular I get get a greatdegree of unfair blame because
everybody sort of points to themand says well you guys you know
made these decisions and madethese tradeoffs without us.
But I think it's more a matterof their doing the absolute best
(12:55):
that they can with what theyhave to work with and the
knowledge that they have thetime that they have the
experience that they have.
And they're making their bestjudgment because they often have
to or there isn't anybody toask.
There isn't time to say Can wetalk to so-and-so about this.
We're forced to just blast thatout yet.
Right.
Is that correct.
One of the things I see to storyis that I think it's more than a
(13:19):
little bit unfair the way thesethings get presented in public.
Yeah I I see a lot of that andit bothers me.
Speaker 6 (13:27):
So yeah I'm in the exact same boat Joe.
I think a lot of times ifsomething breaks I would I would
quit the blame on myself or orthe design team versus the devs
because they're they're justgoing you know and they're
they're paid to crank out codeand they do a great job of it.
And so I think anytime a designelement falls like you said that
(13:50):
the fall is to say what thedevelopers didn't code but it's
maybe we designed too big ascope or there wasn't enough
communication up front.
So yeah I think you're rightabout that.
Yeah I like to like is probablya strong word but I feel like
the design team should shouldera lot of that blame and it comes
down to communication.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
Yeah I think we're in violent agreement there.
So the way I mean it was it wasjust it was good to hear you say
look these guys are really youknow doing an amazing job.
And with the workload.
And this is without me knowinganything concrete about what
you're doing and the true volumeof what you're doing just by
description alone.
I think that you and the sixteams are shouldering an
(14:32):
incredible workload andobviously you.
Speaker 6 (14:35):
You don't work for a small organization and it's a
big very you know we are we'reagile but it is it's really
difficult to pivot reallyquickly in that way.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
I would think so.
And I also think in theinsurance industry because I've
had insurance clients as well.
You're serving multiple mastersin terms of you know who the
business serves directly versusthe journey all the way to the
end consumer only in our endconsumers could be different
depending on different parts ofthe business.
Speaker 6 (15:04):
And we have different goals obviously.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
So yeah it's it's definitely tough on any given
week or on any given initiative.
The person on the receiving endand where the value has to go in
and what that loop looks likeprobably changes to a great
degree I would imagine.
Speaker 6 (15:21):
Totally.
And then you know we have we'rehighly regulated.
Of course you know we're afinancial company so we're
extremely regulated andsometimes you know those types
of problems that need to besolved whether it's compliance
or regulation needs to.
That trumps everything.
And so you know sometimes we'llspend part of the Sprint fixing
(15:44):
a disclosure or making sure thatwe're doing the right thing for
our customers in this way.
And even that results in moretrade offs.
But you know so in that way Iguess you have to pivot pretty
quickly.
But.
Yeah there's all those outsideforces.
It's a lot to deal with.
It's fun.
I love it but it's a lot.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
Yeah.
So do you see those constraintsas a challenge in a good way as
as beneficial to the work thatyou're doing or can they
sometimes be an obstacle.
Speaker 6 (16:16):
Yeah.
So I believe in constraintswholeheartedly.
This goes to the there's athere's a mindset that you know
you are going to go corporateand it's going to be stuffy and
you're going to be relegated toa great cubicle or you're going
to go to a startup and it'sgoing to be a lot of fun and
you're going to drink beer andplay pool.
(16:36):
The constraints in a corporatesetting I find to be so much
more uplifting and they spawn somuch creativity.
I really think I thrive in anarea where you can innovate and
sort of prescribes solutions ifyou will so being able to change
things even though there's a youknow there's a lot of corporate
(16:56):
process and there's a lot of.
Regulation and there's a lot ofother people that are impacted.
I find that.
I just I really enjoy that.
So you know I've done sort ofboth sides of that spectrum and
I really really prefer corporatewhich might be sort of weird to
hear but I think it's I thinkit's a lot more fun.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
No it is weird to hear because I'm very much cut
from the same cloth and I enjoyit for the same reasons I mean
I've worked in enterprise youknow for most of my career.
And that's those problems to meare much more interesting.
Number one it has everything todo with the constraint because
when I go back to his creativeprofessionals of any kind right.
(17:41):
If you talk to a writer you talkto a designer a U.S.
person even developers I thinkto some degree.
One of the hardest mostintimidating things that we ever
encounter is a blank pageabsolute blank slate.
Right okay there's nothing youknow that is buffing to go on.
There's no clear place to start.
(18:03):
Is no clear identified obstaclesor challenges.
So to me like you're saying Ithink all those constraints lend
themselves to what we do.
Yeah absolutely.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Makes for really interesting problems.
Absolutely.
We did years ago we were workingon a video sort of opening slate
for videos we doing and it wasbasically just animating a logo.
That was our only constraint.
And we took it to this amazingagency and we said do whatever
you want.
Go wild.
(18:35):
And they really struggled withit for that reason.
Yeah last week we gave them yeahand they I mean the stuff
they're bringing back we werejust you know again great agency
but we were not impressed and sowe started giving them some some
guardrails.
And yeah the thing that in theend was awesome but it took a
while to get there.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
Yeah.
And I see that over and over andover and over again that's why I
always say constraints are yourfriend.
Absolutely.
Yeah absolutely.
They really really really are.
And I always wonder.
I think there's this idea thatmaybe design schools are guilty
of this I don't know but I see alot in young designers.
What I see is that at thebeginning of their careers
(19:17):
they're very much into that ideaof you know like don't time my
hands.
Yep.
And after they get out there andstart doing the work they start
to feel the opposite which isthe center that you just
described once school to.
Speaker 6 (19:29):
You know there's no budgets.
There's there's a loose timelinethat's pretty long generally.
And you know the assignment isgo make a magazine cover.
Right.
You know you choose yourfavorite music genre and go make
amazing Courbet and you know youcan name it.
You can choose the images youcan choose the topography and
it's it's fun and you want totransfer that when you get out
of school but you can't go to aenterprize job and make a
(19:53):
magazine cover like that itdoesn't work.
Speaker 4 (19:55):
No no it doesn't.
So you went to the artists tocorrect.
I did.
And that was California I thinkwas San Diego.
What was that experience likeand how did it.
In what ways do you feel like itprepared you for what you're
doing now or what didn't either.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
In either case it was it was amazing for a couple of
reasons namely I guess I shouldsay in a way you were talking
about earlier is going toconventions for the energy and
meeting people and talking andmaybe not necessarily for the
speakers.
That was what art school was forme it was you know I met some
(20:33):
lifelong friends there.
And we did some great work.
And I definitely got some greatfundamentals there.
But it wasn't.
I put it this way after I gotout and got a job.
I learned so much more in thefirst four weeks of that job
than I ever did at school.
And so you know when you getwhen you're actually working and
you're thrown into some andsuddenly of clients waiting for
(20:53):
you and you've got an artdirector saying you've got to do
it this way and you've got apublisher saying we got to go to
print in seven days.
It's something totally differentthan than the school experience.
So I don't know how to recreatethat school.
Speaker 6 (21:06):
Maybe Jared spooled might be getting close to it
with high school but I thinkthat that is the biggest
disconnect between school andthe real world.
And it's it's something that Ihaven't seen recreated ever.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
Me either and I've been teaching part time at
various colleges since 1995.
Yeah and I have yet and there'sbeen some good programs and some
very good people so I don't wantto sound like I'm disparaging
anybody I'm not.
Yeah of course.
But these environments by andlarge are still extremely
isolated and what I'veexperienced in the courses I've
(21:43):
taught because I try to do it ina way that's a little more
realistic and sort of you knowgive the students realistic
problems to deal with inrealistic situations to deal
with.
Yep.
Is that it shocks them.
Yeah.
Now all of that leads me towonder and I'm curious you know
based on your experience and seewhat you think while college
(22:05):
programs are lacking the realworld element or context that
we're talking about here I oftenalso wonder whether there is a
balance to be struck OK resortand need the freeform stuff at
that stage in your life just tolearn how to absorb all this
stuff.
Yep you know right to sort ofget your true real first and
(22:25):
then OK here's how you actuallydrive on the road.
Yeah.
I wonder if that's a balancingact and how much of each is
really necessary.
Speaker 6 (22:34):
Yeah I think it's got to be right.
I think you have to learn thesort of your creative process.
You have to learn how you comeup with ideas and when you like
to work and what thoseconditions are like and then you
can transfer that out to thereal world.
And I think you will be muchmore successful when you are
thrown into the fire so tospeak.
So self discovery has to comefirst.
(22:56):
It has to I think yeah I have tounderstand what you like what
you don't.
You know the world is so bigespecially now the design world
is so big and there's so muchinformation that I think you
really have to figure out whoyou are first and then once you
get there I think it's easy tosort of transfer that out.
But it's still hard to prepareyourself for that.
(23:19):
I don't know maybe it's assimple as you know advisers
telling you Look it's going tobe way different when you get
out of here.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
And this is how that could be in terms of your own
career trajectory since you gotout of school.
How has that changed for you interms of what you started out
doing what you're doing now whatyou've done over over time and
how has that evolved.
Has it has it morphed has it hasit grown.
Speaker 6 (23:41):
Yeah I've been really lucky in that I have I've gotten
to do a ton of different thingsbecause I started in the visual
design area and you know firstjobs were working in magazines
and you know doing imageretouching and making
advertisements and things likethat.
(24:01):
And that transferred into youknow more sort of national
advertising and bigger biggerthings and packaging like 3D
design.
And then that sort oftransferred into interactive
design where you started gettinginto websites like the late 90s
early 2000s I guess.
(24:22):
And really getting into thisidea of digital design.
And so I've had jobs or I'vegotten to do all of that and run
those processes which has beenreally amazing.
The one sort of factor thatremain constant through all of
that was that I really love thepsychology behind it.
I loved being able to takesomebodies eye through some
(24:43):
messaging or being able to leadthem through.
An app so that they can achievethe task that they're doing.
And so that led me to to reallyunderstand and this might be
actually contrary to what I wasjust talking about it's called
really understand that you askedwas that the place that I was
meant to be.
Yeah in that I'm reallyunderstanding users and solving
(25:06):
problems and using you knowelements of psychology and
design and human architecture tobe able to solve problems which
is that which is where I amright now.
Speaker 4 (25:17):
And like I said I've been really lucky and I think
that's often what happens isthat the more you experience
your sort of sense of what youreally love about this changes
to some degree turn right foryou the way you've described it.
And I'm very much the same way Iwas I started out as a designer
write a print designer.
(25:37):
But the part that always was themost intriguing part was this
sort of general cognitive dancethat happens between what you
produce and how people receiveit and are affected by it.
Speaker 6 (25:52):
Yep yep absolutely.
And I like the.
I like this.
I've always like the thoughtthat your messaging has to work
on every medium.
So somebody has to be able tosee it on their phone.
It needs to work on TV and hasto work on a billboard.
It needs to work everywhere andbe consistent.
And I and I really enjoythinking about all those angles
and all those levers.
And so I got to do a lot of thatas an art director.
(26:14):
But it's it's different now I'mon a small design team and I get
to do end to end.
So now I get to use all of theexperience that I've had to go
to to start in research and andreally dig into how users are
using things and do a lot ofcontextual and query and
contextual interviews andtalking to people and move that
(26:36):
all the way through the designprocess you know through the
through the discovery and thewireframe and into final design
which is why I say I've beenlucky because I can do that
intent.
And it's it's so fun to me tosee one thing from beginning to
end is a blast Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:52):
And I think that's where the challenges for a lot
of us I think there are parts ofthat entire process that I think
to outside people would beoutside the realm of what a US
professional or designer orsomething like that actually
does.
It's all these little piecesthat don't fit neatly into the
job description.
I think that really get usexcited about what we do.
Speaker 6 (27:15):
Absolutely.
And I think the model that I'mtalking about this maybe
generalist model is it may notbe scalable to a degree.
If we were for people braggingI'm I'm 25 percent of the team
if we were 300 people then wemight have to be more
specialized and it might makemore sense to have a visual team
and a research team where peoplecan really use their skills to
(27:39):
to dig in and do what they'regood at versus generalists you
know I don't like this Jack ofAll Trades.
Because I think we can go deepin all of these disciplines.
But like I said I don't know ifit's scalable.
Speaker 4 (27:54):
Now I don't think it is.
And I think there's a line theresomewhere.
Right.
Right.
Between promoting yourself orattempting to be jack of all
trades right.
Excellent at everything.
I don't think that's possiblenumber one.
Sure but at the same time a sortof deep curiosity and respect
and acknowledgment of how thoseparts work together I think is a
(28:18):
critical part of the job.
For example I've had manymeetings over my career with
database architects.
OK.
They live in a world that isabsolutely foreign to me Toto.
These are some of the sharpestpeople I've ever met in my
entire life.
I mean the brainpower there isjust astounding to me.
Yup yup.
And although I don't get it.
(28:38):
And although I would never wantto die wholeheartedly into it I
have thoroughly enjoyed thosecollaborations because the
connections between what they doand what I do are very very
important and I think if youdon't go there at least and be
willing to try to immerseyourself and learn something I
think you're missing anopportunity to be better at your
(29:00):
part.
No man that's such a greatpoint.
Speaker 6 (29:03):
Absolutely.
I wish I could expand on itbecause it's such a great point
but there's nothing more to say.
Speaker 5 (29:08):
That's why I'm rarely that good.
That's it we're done here.
Speaker 4 (29:18):
The over overcooked.
Here's a question related to allthis that somebody threw out
Chris Alvan who I follow onTwitter said this last weekend.
Man what a great question.
I'm going to ask this in my nextinterview.
So here it is related everythingthat we're talking about.
First question is this what dopeople think that your role is.
Speaker 6 (29:41):
Amazing question.
They.
So it sort of depends on thecontext of the situation.
There were there were therelationships that I'm building
are at different levels.
So some people I may have helpedthem with some visual stuff some
well I may have you know takenthem through a design sprint and
(30:03):
gotten some great insights usinga quick prototype and some
contextual interviews.
So maybe a researcher to somepeople and maybe.
A graphic designer to somepeople.
You know sometimes I'm justsomebody they can bounce an idea
office and I can get into it.
So that's sort of.
Speaker 4 (30:23):
A nonanswer.
No it's not.
And here's sort of an additionto that.
Does that interpretation changebased on that person's role how
they see based on that person'srole.
In other words project managerssee you as one thing.
Developers see you as somethingelse.
You know your film immediateteam members see you as
(30:45):
something else.
Speaker 6 (30:46):
I don't think it's that specific.
I don't think it's rural.
I think it's maybe part of thebusiness that they're in and the
engagement that we've had.
So I work with a lot ofarchitects who can build
something in a flash what theyneed from me is a lot of our
direction.
I work with other groups thatyou know are really interested
(31:08):
in trying to figure out whichproblem they're solving and so I
work with them to do a lot offacilitation.
And.
You know a lot of research.
So I think it's more around thegroup and not necessarily the
individual.
And you know it's always theirproblem.
Now I will say I'm trying to toget them all to to see me as
(31:29):
sort of a strategist andsomebody that can help in tandem
and they can bring me in reallyearly and I can talk about.
The problem that we're solvingand I can validate that it's a
problem.
You know and we can move onthrough the design process from
there.
You know and I'm not.
There was some some of thebusinesses and some of them are
very much there.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
So now we just got to the second question that he
asked which is what is your rolereally.
Yeah.
So it sounds like you're tryingto do.
Yeah.
Just rewind this about 20seconds let's say I'm I'm.
Speaker 6 (32:08):
It's tough.
I am I see myself as astrategist.
But I'm not that to to everyoneso my role really is whatever
people need at the time really.
And again I've been lucky inthat I can do a lot of that.
You know I would say thatresearch is my weakest area in
that I'm not familiar enoughwith you know calculating
(32:30):
confidence intervals and thingslike that but I can I can
definitely get in and validate aproblem and I can moderate
usability tests or whatever itneeds to be so it's it's that
I'm trying to be everything toeveryone.
And maybe that's to my detrimentactually.
But you know it's aboutrelationships.
Speaker 4 (32:49):
It is par for the course inside an organization
and part of a collaborative teamof any kind.
Even if you're working as anoutside consultant I think
that's par for the course.
Speaker 6 (32:58):
Yeah and success for me there is if they will
consider me as a design expertwell and they will anytime they
think they need something designrelated to contact me that is
that's it really that that makesme happy so I see that as
success.
And I can them that says right.
Speaker 4 (33:17):
And it sounds value valuable is the word I was going
for there hopefully.
I think it's valuable.
Have you ever been asked to dosomething that is far outside of
your comfort zone or yourexpertise that you were
uncomfortable with.
Speaker 6 (33:32):
Oh yeah yeah all the time.
It depends on what we're talkingabout so I've been asked to fly
to Poland and give apresentation on or online
advertising.
That was that was years ago butthat was terrifying not defined
to Poland.
I love travel but you knowgetting up in front of people
(33:53):
and speaking has always beenscary for a lot of people
including myself.
But it's also one of the mostfun I've ever had.
That stuff like that is amazing.
So I really like it when when Iwas asked that you know.
There are some times when I knowthat maybe I can add a lot of
value.
(34:13):
So I will connect them withsomebody in order to get them
where they need to be.
If it's if it's too much butwe're talking about being
uncomfortable I actually reallylike that.
Speaker 4 (34:24):
So the speaking thing when they asked you to do this
did it surprise you that youenjoyed it.
Speaker 6 (34:30):
Once you sort of do yeah maybe a little.
Yeah it was I was focused on theact of standing there and
talking and it's so much morethan that.
It's you know not to be toocliche but it's it's telling a
story and it's engaging with anaudience and it's trying to
build this sort of almostdramatic arc of storyline so
(34:51):
that you can deliver somethingimpactful and interesting to
them.
So it's more than just it's morethan just it's it's trying to
deliver something by viable thatpeople that are sitting in
trainings for you know a weekeight hours a day.
I find that part of it reallyinteresting so.
I didn't know that I like thatuntil I did it but you know I've
(35:12):
I've done a ton of speakingsince then and I really like it.
I like the preparation.
I even like practicing thespeeches and stuff cool
invariably.
Yeah invariably I never reallysay what I plan to say.
But.
Speaker 5 (35:29):
There.
It's critical.
That's why I don't rehearse.
Speaker 4 (35:34):
I just I get years ago I gave up.
Yeah it is.
They said you know it.
This is just dumb.
I'm going to go up there andI've got to say what I'm going
to say.
So whatever.
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (35:46):
But you know there are a couple approaches.
I mean I'm sort of in themiddle.
I may need to choose a side butI can't just get up there and
wing it.
I need to know my concepts bythen of course I don't I don't
feel very confident if I don'trun over.
At least seven to ten times.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
Do you think there are some parallels in doing that
storytelling and making sure youcommunicate with people.
Are there some parallels thereto what you do on a daily and
weekly basis.
Sure absolutely.
Speaker 6 (36:17):
And that's one of the things that the team talks about
all the time.
You know.
I've said it like three timesnow communication is so
important.
And you know this I just heard agreat quote about misinformation
being the biggest killer of yourbusiness.
And I think yeah I think it'strue though I think anytime
you're up there and you'retalking about something and
(36:39):
you're sort of bay it reallydilutes your story.
It doesn't help anybody andeverybody leaves that meeting
having a slightly differentinterpretation of what you're
talking about.
And you are sunk at that point.
So yeah I work on.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
ROCK Yeah and I think I'm of the belief that it takes
a certain amount of couragequite frankly to speak plainly
and clearly and to do so in away where it's humble and you're
not presenting yourself as a youknow the ultimate authority and
what I mean by that is and thiscame up yesterday I was
(37:18):
interviewed for a podcast thatcame up yesterday about language
OK.
And clients in acronyms andjargon and terminology.
Yes all of those things getthrown out.
And this is just Joe's opinion.
OK.
I think that a big part of thereason people on all sides of
every fence talk like that rightlike that present like that is
(37:40):
because there's two reasons.
Number one they've sort of beentrained and told in a of the
belief that that's how you soundwhen you are a quote unquote
expert.
Yep and the second part is ahealthy degree of fear and
insecurity which we all have.
Yes.
Because you worry that you soundlike you know what you're
(38:00):
talking about.
Speaker 6 (38:02):
Yep exactly right now.
It's a big fear.
Speaker 4 (38:04):
And I think in both cases I think in both cases it
doesn't help anybody.
Speaker 6 (38:12):
Yeah.
And that's the bigger pointyeah.
You know the fear of not lookinglike you know what you're
talking about is huge.
Yeah.
And I noticed that myselfsometimes yeah I really really
really try to avoid jargon.
My wife is a teacher and shehates it all she hurts herself
rolling her eyes.
Speaker 5 (38:32):
So I try to it but it hurts her so explain that point
go you know.
Speaker 6 (38:39):
You know you just it doesn't help anything.
I think that now is what we'resaying.
So I agree with you.
Speaker 4 (38:45):
It just it's just it's reduces the chances of
understanding I am of the frameof mind where you should always
assume that nobody in the roomknows what you're talking about.
Speaker 6 (38:55):
Yeah.
Yeah sure.
And even if you use some sort ofyou know office talk that seems
to make sense to everyone.
It still leaves room forinterpretation.
And I think that is where youare not trying to be vague but
you're being vague and suddenlyyou are undermining yourself.
Speaker 4 (39:15):
Yeah and it comes across in public spaces as well.
It comes across as arrogance tome.
There are a lot of organizationswho I respect.
OK.
Now that's still default to thisthey'll post something read on
Facebook or Twitter or onLinkedIn.
And it's this sort of pithyquick statement that is that is
(39:37):
designed in a way that if you'rein the know how you'll know what
it means you know and thatbothers the hell out of me.
OK.
Like there are people out therewho need to hear what you have
to say.
You have a valuable point ofview.
You have something of importanceto express why in the hell would
you want to do it in a way wherepeople actually get the message
that Romney does not sir.
(39:58):
That's a great point.
I care about too many things.
You know I keep thinking that asI get older all of chill out
about some of the stuff ithasn't happened yet.
Now that's good.
That's what makes you you know Iguess.
Good man I guess I guess itlooks to me when I look at your
(40:19):
history you're linked in profilefor example.
It looks to me like you havebeen there aside from the jobs
you've had you've beenfreelancing for a very long time
is that something you're stilldoing in addition to the job.
Speaker 6 (40:30):
Not lately.
So since I joined the largefinancial institution that I
work at yeah I haven't done it.
But it's something that I'vedone over the years.
So first of all I never set outto be a straight up freelancer.
It's not me chasing down workand trying to get sales is just
not me.
(40:51):
So I think what I've always hadpeople that needed help you know
a small business is trying toget off the ground.
It's like that I really enjoyhelping those out.
And I've gotten a chance to doit for money in the past but
it's not something that I do nowfor a couple reasons.
Speaker 7 (41:09):
The biggest probably being that I don't want to
compete with the job I'm inright now.
But.
Speaker 6 (41:14):
Also I have no time I have a 6 year old and a 3 year
old so I don't know if any anyminute any second that I have is
spent helping them or hangingout with them or taking them to
the park.
Speaker 4 (41:27):
So yeah sure.
So out of curiosity and this isgoing to sound like a request of
a mascot anyway.
Good.
How has if it has.
How is having kids change yourperspective.
Me either on what you do for aliving or how you do it or just
maybe maybe just your worldviewin general.
Speaker 6 (41:47):
Great question.
So there's a few ways.
Speaker 7 (41:51):
First of all what's important has changed for me
quite a bit.
You know I used to I used tothink you know I can do.
I can take any job and you know.
I live in Providence but I couldcommute to Washington D.C.
If I had to for the right job.
I felt like the job was reallyimportant and I still think it
is.
You spend a very largepercentage of your life at work.
(42:12):
And so I think enjoying what youdo is is really key.
But you know there are somethings that I can give up in
order to be able to see my kids.
You know you're one of the oneof the reasons for my last job
change was I was leaving thehouse before the kids were awake
and I was coming home aftertheir sleep.
They started not to recognize meand it was sort of a going
(42:34):
epiphany moment where you knowI'm standing in a store and my
son is making a noise that Ididn't understand or that I that
I had never heard him and so Icalled my wife and I was like
you know listen to this whatdoes he do.
Is he OK and she's like he'swhining.
Does this all the time.
And I was like Man that was wassort of it.
(42:55):
Like I realized that I wasfocusing on the wrong thing and
it sort of changed.
That changed my view of what'simportant.
The world view is I've alwayshad this world view that I want
everything to be as good aspossible and what I mean by that
is you know people are alwaysdoing the right thing and people
are always well-intentioned.
(43:16):
And and things like that.
Speaker 6 (43:17):
And I think one of the things I would love to leave
for them is that the thoughtprocess that people are ways
mean the best people areinherently good.
Now you know that that runs therisk of being naive obviously.
So there's a there's a line thatbut I want them to have that
type of outlook.
(43:38):
And so I try and bolster that inthem all the time.
Speaker 4 (43:42):
Which is which is good.
And that's that's one of thehardest parts of being a parent
is because you have to reconcilethe fact that a lot about life
is less than perfect.
And in some cases it's downrightugly.
Difficult.
Yes.
Absolutely.
The goal to understand and toexplain and at the same time you
(44:05):
want to make sure I agree withyou that your kids grow up with
hope.
You know with positivity withbelieving.
That yeah you know sometimesthings do work right.
People are for the most partgood.
And I think that's a tall orderfor anybody.
Yeah.
It keeps me up at night butthat's it.
(44:26):
You just said the word is hope.
It's one of the reasons and I'dbe curious to see what your
opinion is on this withoutdiving too deeply into this
topic.
There are a lot of instanceswhere we now have social media
we all platform people wholisten to what we have to say on
small and large scales.
(44:47):
Things are happening in theworld in our country in
particular with our government.
It is difficult line for mepersonally to walk to say OK I
really feel like I'm shirking myresponsibility to people who pay
attention to what I say.
If I don't speak up about thisat the same time.
(45:10):
You're also worried at that thatyou know now you're going to
become just another politicalcommentator and I don't want to
beat here.
I don't right.
I just I wonder if you ever feelpulled that way and what your
thoughts are about you knowfolks in high profile positions
(45:32):
who at times instead of speakingabout design.
You know pipe up about what'sgoing on in their world.
Speaker 6 (45:41):
Very interesting question.
So I have a lot of strongthoughts about it.
And I talk to my kids about it alot.
My 6 year old especially yeahshe's sort of interested in.
So what I do is in a lot ofcases I just won't say anything
right.
I'll just stop because I knowthat I am passionate about a lot
(46:03):
of these things and I can I cantalk about it a whole lot or I
can argue about it if you will awhole lot.
So I I try and generally stayaway from it.
But I think what you're talkingabout is a slightly different
and I do I think it's importantto get the truth out in the
(46:24):
right message you know and thethere's so much going on right
now that is glossed over or spuna certain way.
And you know it may be comingfrom advertising.
Speaker 7 (46:34):
I have a sort of a reaction to it but I think words
are really powerful and I thinkthat people can be swayed in a
direction that even underminestheir possibly their own
self-interest because they hearcertain words put together in a
certain way.
And in Syria I think.
I think people with a platformhave a right to say the truth.
(46:54):
There's a there's a line therethough you know obviously you
can get up and use your platformto say things and then suddenly
it's it's useless.
So but I think you have tocounteract that with the message
of hope that we were talkingabout earlier.
Speaker 4 (47:08):
And that's that's been the hard part.
Sure.
You know it's been the hardpart.
It's hard to counteract thatimpulse.
To say my God I can't believethis is happening I can't
believe that people are sayingand doing these things out loud.
Yeah I'm sure and it'sheightened when like you said
when you have kids you become alot more sensitive to it at
(47:29):
least I most certainly did andcertainly am right now.
Toner.
My own biggest fear.
OK I have two daughters andwatching a lot of what's going
on right now you know you feellike it's dangerous to remain
silent.
Yeah.
Oh my god yes.
Because silence because silencecan equal agreement.
And I'm you.
Know I am really afraid of that.
(47:51):
But it's tough.
It's tough.
And I hope I guess all we canhope for is you try to err on
the side of you cost of thatwhen you see it.
But you also try to make sureyou're being supportive and
positive in some way.
I don't always win that battlebut I sure as hell try.
Yeah it's hard and I'm sure.
(48:12):
You know I don't have theproblem that you have so I'm
sure that a lot of struggle andsometimes you know people say
shut up and talk about you X anddesign.
Right.
You know I know I really get itsir.
But you know so it's a it's aconstant struggle.
Yeah that's what people want tohear from me and that's where my
(48:35):
value is and I should be doingthat.
At the same time it's reallyhard for me to say OK I'm never
going to talk when there's loadsof Ray.
You know.
It's there.
You know there were of coursewhether you want to deal or not.
Oh god it's definitely there.
All right we're about a littleless than 10 minutes out so I
(48:56):
would like to ask you some quicksort of hotseat questions which
hopefully won't answer.
Not not yet.
Well sir easy.
All right.
Favorite movie of all time.
Wow.
It's an easy you can choose abook as well.
Speaker 6 (49:11):
Well I do a lot of reading so it's it's usually the
the book that I'm reading at thetime I'm reading principles by
radio right now and it's it'sreally interesting it's it's
amazing that he can live hislife and run his business in the
way that he does.
It's really good.
I would say the movie would be atoss up.
There's one called Hall junkies.
(49:34):
That is amazing.
And then of course Star Warscame out on my birthday and I
grew up with Star Wars to goexcept for the pretty cool ones.
I would have to go with StarWars.
Why.
If you're able to explain whyStar Wars.
Yeah.
You know it was in my life.
I went to see it when I was Ithink it was three.
It's just been in my life eversince and I just like the
(49:58):
storyline.
I like the characters.
I just it's one of those thingsthat is just always been there
and it's got a great deal depth.
Speaker 4 (50:05):
It does.
I mean it really has an amazingdegree of depth when you really
look at it.
Yeah definitely.
See that was easy.
All right.
So tell me something a hiddentalent for example that you have
that either nobody knows aboutor not too many people know
about a hidden talent well orsomething you do that nobody
(50:26):
knows about.
Speaker 6 (50:26):
So it's something that I do all the time that I
find a bunch of value in is Idigitize everything and it's all
in the name of you know thesethey're almost like notes.
So any time I'll draw flow on aboard I will put it in sketch.
I have a library built where Ican just grab symbols and put
(50:49):
them on there and I canillustrate flows really quickly
and that and then I can leavethem on my sketch file.
And I always have this sort offrame of reference for what I'm
doing to help guide theinteraction.
They're throwaways you know andI spend I spent some time on
them not too much but they'rethey're sort of something that
nobody ever sees.
(51:10):
But I take great pride in themand I really like I enjoy making
up interest.
Speaker 4 (51:14):
So you're more of a scanning than you're actually
recreating them in sketch.
Speaker 6 (51:17):
I do.
And it gives me a chance torethink.
The interactions that I've drawnon a whiteboard and it gives me
a chance to go over them again.
And then I have it as a frame ofreference right there in my
sketch right.
Speaker 4 (51:29):
I think that's incredibly valuable.
And you the first person I'veever talked to has told me that
they've done something like thatreally that's cool.
Speaker 6 (51:38):
I thought it wouldn't be that much of a hidden thing
but I love it.
Speaker 4 (51:42):
I really know what I'm sitting here going what a
great idea.
Because for multiple reasons.
It's the old thing about from apsychological perspective a
cognitive perspective is theprocessing right.
Yep you're involved you'rereally involved in your thinking
about it in the act of taking itand recreating it automatically
he invites you to rethinkthrough everything.
(52:05):
I think that's incrediblyvaluable.
Speaker 6 (52:07):
Yeah that and it helps you understand that you
know we're looking at a tradingsystem is incredibly complex and
there's a lot of differentscenarios and you can you can go
through and really understandwhich one works here and which
one doesn't work here and whichyou know what this fellow needs.
And yeah I find it hugelybeneficial.
Speaker 4 (52:27):
Wow that's powerful write that one down.
Folks it's good.
I'm seriously thinking about OKhow can I start doing the same
thing.
You taught me something.
It's all about sketch libraries.
I can send you want if you want.
Awesome.
Next question.
What word or phrase do you say.
Far too often far too often.
Speaker 6 (52:47):
Well I say too much I'm sure.
Definitely I say man.
Speaker 4 (52:52):
I overuse my hand.
In what way.
Speaker 6 (52:58):
I've been known to start and end sentences with the
word man.
Yeah sometimes it's I thinkmaybe it's an effort to be
casual.
But you know I think I'ddefinitely use it in the wrong
places sometimes.
And then there's two great wordsand they are sought in
leadership.
But I hate it when they'restrung together in a sentence.
(53:19):
And so I use those sometimesbecause that's one of those
things where everybody knows inmy specific context everybody
knows what I'm talking about.
Speaker 4 (53:27):
But it just I take a shower and it feels right.
All right so you're on the heelsof that.
Give me another phrase that thatevokes the same clinginess in
you know.
Speaker 6 (53:47):
Well I think it would be too obvious to pick you know
the jargony ones like circleback.
And you know.
I know what I do.
I use the word just sometimes inan e-mail.
And so in an effort to set atone.
You know just checking in hereare something and that feel like
it makes me almost like I'mapologizing beforehand and I try
(54:09):
not to do that.
But I definitely I hate it whenyou know I'll send an e-mail and
then somebody will respond backand reread what I sent and I'm
like OK.
Speaker 4 (54:21):
So I do that sometimes that urge never goes
away.
I'm here to tell you I have itfor your book that it is never
going away because I'm guilty ofit as well.
Yeah.
Hey just just checking in tobecome part of you and I'll be
honest with you it bothers thehell out of me when people just
(54:42):
go silent.
Oh sure.
OK.
On the conversation that drivesme absolutely insane Sheriff is
that there's no excuse OK totake three seconds shoot e-mail
back and say hey slammed rightnow.
Sorry I haven't got back to you.
I promise I will write as soonas possible.
I don't even care when the dateis.
All right it's just anacknowledgment of I've left you
(55:04):
hanging.
Yeah.
All right I think that'simportant so people will do
that.
I'm always on the fence abouthow to respond because I want to
say when I want to say but see Idon't want to.
Pick a fight for no reason youdon't have to go home in a
person's life.
OK.
Could your god forbid it couldbe something serious right.
Well I tend to do the samething.
They had just pissed me overhere.
Speaker 3 (55:27):
Like you it's this probably about as well in tone
is tough to convey over e-mailso sometimes it works to set a
good tone.
Speaker 4 (55:36):
But no.
All right final hotseatquestion.
And Ryan it's a big one as well.
You're going to hate me butthat's OK.
You have the proverbial one wishand it can't be Temeraire
wishes.
What is it.
Wow.
I don't have one wish.
(55:58):
Just one.
Choose wisely.
Speaker 6 (56:01):
Yeah I need like a day or so to think about you
know my brain is going two waysand they both sound really
selfish and trite but obviouslythey act the one way should be
that my my kids and my familyhave great lives and they grow
up healthy and have a fulfillinghappy lives.
(56:24):
The other one would be and thisone's really trite but I don't
want to be world peace.
And I don't mean that in theMiss America Pageant way.
But I mean it in that everybodysees the good in everybody else
and that everybody is inherentlywell-intentioned without being
naive.
So that would be a tough wish toget across.
(56:44):
But.
Speaker 4 (56:45):
I don't think that's shredded at all.
And after talking to you youknow for an hour I think it's a
pretty accurate summary of whoyou are referring.
Well thank you very much.
It has been my absolute pleasuretalking to you.
I wish you continued success andall good things keep us abreast
of what's going on with you.
And we will talk again soon.
Speaker 1 (57:08):
That wraps up this edition of making us work.
Thanks for listening and I hopehearing these stories provide
some useful perspective andencouragement along with the
reminder that you're not aloneout there.
Before I go I want you to knowthat you can find shows and
links to the things mentionedduring our conversation by
visiting give good you X.comslash podcast.
(57:29):
You'll also find links to moreUS resources on the web and
social media along with ways tocontact me if you're interested
in sharing your own story here.
Speaker 2 (57:38):
Until next time this is Joe Anatoliy reminding you
that it's people like you whomake us work.
Hello and welcome to making you work to give you X
podcast.
I'm your host Giuntoli and ourfocus here is on folks like you
doing real often unglamorouswork in the real world.
You'll hear about theirstruggles their successes and
their journey to and through thetrenches of product design
development and of course userexperience.
(00:32):
My guest today is Jason bood andJason's core disciplines are in
three focused areas.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
You design strategy creative direction and
mentorship.
He's been a designer his entirelife but professionally since
2001.
Jason believes firmly in makingthe world a better place through
design and in building andcoaching the next generation of
user centered business savvyethical designers.
And that last part is importantbecause as I'm sure you'll pick
(01:00):
up on Jason truly believes inhim he believes in the good in
people and he is steadfastlycommitted to his family which
drives both his work ethic andhis worldview.
Here's my conversation withJason Bowden on making ex work.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
So Jason how are you.
I'm great.
I'm terrific actually terrific.
Please do tell.
Well it's it's been a good sortof crazy week but in a very sort
of uplifting exciting way.
You know just a whole lot ofstuff going on.
I really like being busy and Ilike making progress on a lot of
fronts.
(01:36):
That stuff is really fun and Iwas also at the UIC conference.
So I came back a little inspiredlittle motivated.
So that's also good.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
Yeah it's always good to go to conferences like that.
For me at least made it so muchfor the other speakers in the
presentations but just theenergy that happens yeah it
happens like that I think it'sreally really positive to
charging in a way.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Well hundreds of like minded people are hanging out
together as always.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
Yeah yeah.
So what are you working on rightnow.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
I'm doing some sort of see I would call them updates
to existing things going on.
So I don't know if you'refamiliar with the Konno model
but you know it's this is thisway to sort of judge customer
delight.
Joan spel talks about all thetime know we were doing a bunch
of basic expectation upgradingwhich is great.
(02:27):
You know fixing things likesearch results or enhancing
search results I should say youknow looking at the ways that
users log into our site thatkind of thing.
So it's stuff that I reallyenjoy.
It's sort of this ongoingmaintenance but it's always
making things better.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Yeah I mean kind of.
I'm interested actually in howyou're approaching that and
implementing it because kind ofa seems to be one of those
things in terms of you know whatI've run across where it's
implemented either to greatsuccess.
Speaker 5 (02:59):
Or great frustration.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
So I'm curious about how it's working and your
organization and how it'sreceived and how or whatever
it's getting.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Yes.
It's it's a couple of levelsright.
So in theory it's great andeverybody.
It's easy to visualize and it'seasy to see.
And it makes for a lot of sensewhen I'm selling it to somebody.
But in the implementation partof it it's always a little bit.
I wouldn't I don't think it'sfair to call it frustrating but
it's definitely.
(03:30):
Much more difficult in practicethan it is in theory.
Put it that way.
You know we are constantlyevangelizing constantly selling
constantly testing and usinganalytics to to make sure that
we're focusing on the rightthings and a lot of times those
happen to be basic expectations.
So.
It sort of works out in theKonno framework if you will but
(03:53):
I wouldn't say that it's anoverall adopted mindset
everywhere but it's somethingthat we talk about all the time
in the context of fixing thingsand we should also probably and
this is my bet for anybody who'slistening that doesn't know what
kind of lives maybe we shouldtake a minute to to describe how
it works or at least how you'reapproaching it and yours.
Speaker 4 (04:14):
Yeah sure.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
So again using a GERITZ poor model I'm talking
about the basic things thatpeople expect from your from
your service or from yourwebsite.
His example is in a hotel.
You always expect hot water evenif you're on the 30th floor.
Must be right.
Yeah yeah exactly.
Exactly.
(04:36):
But the infrastructure involvedin actually you know pumping hot
water to the 30th floor andkeeping it circulating all the
time is a lot and it takes a lotof work and it's expensive.
And that's the that's the linethat we're always having to sell
on.
Which makes sense.
Yeah.
On top of that you know you haveyour standard sort of
(04:56):
progression of features thatyou're always releasing new
features release and alwaysimproving your product.
And then on top of that you havethese things called the riders
which are little maybe bits ofcopy or animations or ways to
give the user a feeling ofmeaning that really add to your
product.
But the the thing about those isyou cannot implement dividers
(05:20):
before you do the basicexpectations.
That's the bottom line I guess.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
Yeah.
Which which makes total sensethe progression of that where it
get a bottom line deal breakersor deal makers as it were that
absolutely have to beimplemented and if we don't at
least hit that bar everythingelse is not that which is
something that I think a lot ofpeople who do what we do
experience especially whenthey're working with clients or
(05:45):
working inside organizations.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Yeah exactly.
A product manager put it to mevery well he said you know we're
always chasing the shiny newtoy.
So any time we have a newfeature coming out all the teams
get diverted to that and we workon them release that.
Meanwhile you know people can'tmisspell a word on your website
because you haven't addressedthe search results algorithm.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
How much of a struggle is that for you to move
people's attention away from theeasily exciting stuff.
And back to the real problemswhich if you don't solve.
You don't get where you'regoing.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Sure it's it's getting easier.
You know I think it's it's humannature to always want to do the
new thing and build the newexperience and I am definitely
guilty of it too.
But we you know we we talk aboutthese things all the time and we
have visibility into the backlogand we can we can sort of try
(06:43):
and prioritize these things ifwe know somebody is in a certain
codebase and they're looking atsomething we can say oh can we
fix this as well.
So we look for opportunities youknow to put those in there where
we think it might be easy forthe dev team easy quote unquote.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
What's the what's the makeup of your team like your
immediate team and then yourinteraction with the developers
product managers et cetera etcetera.
Yep.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
So my immediate team there are four of us three
designers and then our managerand then we work hand in hand
with marketing you X team aswell.
And so we we sort of combine andthat makes maybe eight or nine
of us that are working on aproject at the same time in
various capacities.
(07:28):
That's from the design teamstandpoint on the dev side.
There are six Scrum Teams thatwe support.
So at any time we may be youknow working with the team in
Ireland or a team that we sitnear.
And our cold.
My coworker might be workingwith the same team doing
something similar.
(07:49):
Or.
Something completely differentit doesn't matter but we have to
be in constant communicationthat way.
So there's a lot of movingparts.
You know we rely heavily on ourproject managers and our product
managers to let us know thatwe're going the right direction.
Speaker 6 (08:04):
And you know I guess that the answer is we support
six Scrum Teams from adevelopment standpoint and it
gets messy sometimes I guess.
Yeah but it's fun.
You know we're very agile.
You know obviously and where wetry and work lean so we don't
have a lot of really heavyprocess.
And so obviously communicationis really big for us.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
I would think so with that much going on 6 I mean 16
is all with sounds like withactive projects.
Yep yep that's that's a lot ofworking on different parts of
the app.
Yeah how do you think when askedthis question.
Aside from obviously your PMshow do you manage that
interaction and communicationwith with these teams between
(08:48):
between you X efforts designefforts and those teams
especially when you'redisconnected right by geography.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Yeah great question.
It's really hard.
It's actually something that Istruggle with.
I have this designer brain thatis sort of you know always
moving in and trying to solveproblems and sometimes getting
down in the weeds of projectmanagement is really tough
especially when there's so muchgoing on at the same time.
(09:15):
So once again it's communicationit's always communication.
You know the when it breaks downthe first thing you look at is
where did the meeting not happenor where did the information get
transferred.
That made it so we shippedsomething that we really
shouldn't the ship.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
Can you give me an example of a time when that
happened.
Speaker 6 (09:35):
Yeah let me.
Let me think for a second if wecan talk about it.
Yeah.
I'm trying to figure out a wayto word it.
I'll be really general about itwhich I try and avoid.
Sure as far as communicationgoes but I'll design something
and then we'll talk about itwith the scrum team and then
later on when they're.
Doing their planning game andassigning points to it they'll
(09:57):
realize that they can't get itall in so even though sort of
pare back the scope a little andthey don't know that possibly
what they've cut out is integralto the experience that we
designed them and then we'llship something and you know look
at it during a review.
And I my guys you know we've gotto do this part.
(10:18):
This is key to it.
And then you know we're eitherscrambling because you know
we're just trying to get it intothe next release or you know and
to move it on her.
And that's sort of frequent youknow and you know people talk
about tradeoffs all the time andthat's one of those things but
if we don't talk about themstuff gets lost really quickly.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
Yeah.
And I think also you're notalone there because one piece
that's that's often missing inlarger organizations especially
with distributed teams of anykind is the sort of the ranking
part when it comes to featuresfunctionality or requirements.
Back to the Kunle model for asecond.
Right.
These are our must be.
These are the things thatabsolutely must be in this next
(11:00):
sprint in this next releasewhatever and when you're moving
really fast and you're jugglingmultiple parts.
That sometimes gets communicatedbut not to the degree that it
should exist where these kindsof things happens.
Right.
The dev team does what theythink needs to be done because
they're staring down a daterape.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Exactly that's exactly right.
And it's also a little morenuanced in that they may deliver
the functionality that you werelooking for but the animation
that alerts the user that thatfunctionality is happening.
They didn't ship right.
And suddenly it's broken.
It just it doesn't work for theuser because they have no idea
what's going on.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
Do you think that's a scent of just volume.
OK.
The volume of stuff that youhave to keep on top of that
things slip through the crackslike that.
Speaker 6 (11:46):
Yeah I think that's that's one of them.
I think it's just moving sofast.
I think that it is like you saidearlier we are always trying to
ahead of time.
So in this triangle of timequality or money the money and
the time are often immovable.
So we have to make tradeoffs andthat's where they get made.
(12:08):
Sometimes we if I'm not in theroom or if one of my
counterparts isn't in the roomyou know and don't get me wrong
are our development teams areamazing and they're really fast
and they're great at thinkingabout the user.
They obviously don't have theinsight that somebody from the
team has where they can say lookthis feedback here is so
important.
Otherwise we might as well notbuild this.
(12:30):
Yeah.
And you know those thoseconversations are are sort of
few and far between I think.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
Yeah and I honestly think that a lot of developers
in particular I get get a greatdegree of unfair blame because
everybody sort of points to themand says well you guys you know
made these decisions and madethese tradeoffs without us.
But I think it's more a matterof their doing the absolute best
(12:55):
that they can with what theyhave to work with and the
knowledge that they have thetime that they have the
experience that they have.
And they're making their bestjudgment because they often have
to or there isn't anybody toask.
There isn't time to say Can wetalk to so-and-so about this.
We're forced to just blast thatout yet.
Right.
Is that correct.
One of the things I see to storyis that I think it's more than a
(13:19):
little bit unfair the way thesethings get presented in public.
Yeah I I see a lot of that andit bothers me.
Speaker 6 (13:27):
So yeah I'm in the exact same boat Joe.
I think a lot of times ifsomething breaks I would I would
quit the blame on myself or orthe design team versus the devs
because they're they're justgoing you know and they're
they're paid to crank out codeand they do a great job of it.
And so I think anytime a designelement falls like you said that
(13:50):
the fall is to say what thedevelopers didn't code but it's
maybe we designed too big ascope or there wasn't enough
communication up front.
So yeah I think you're rightabout that.
Yeah I like to like is probablya strong word but I feel like
the design team should shouldera lot of that blame and it comes
down to communication.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
Yeah I think we're in violent agreement there.
So the way I mean it was it wasjust it was good to hear you say
look these guys are really youknow doing an amazing job.
And with the workload.
And this is without me knowinganything concrete about what
you're doing and the true volumeof what you're doing just by
description alone.
I think that you and the sixteams are shouldering an
(14:32):
incredible workload andobviously you.
Speaker 6 (14:35):
You don't work for a small organization and it's a
big very you know we are we'reagile but it is it's really
difficult to pivot reallyquickly in that way.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
I would think so.
And I also think in theinsurance industry because I've
had insurance clients as well.
You're serving multiple mastersin terms of you know who the
business serves directly versusthe journey all the way to the
end consumer only in our endconsumers could be different
depending on different parts ofthe business.
Speaker 6 (15:04):
And we have different goals obviously.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
So yeah it's it's definitely tough on any given
week or on any given initiative.
The person on the receiving endand where the value has to go in
and what that loop looks likeprobably changes to a great
degree I would imagine.
Speaker 6 (15:21):
Totally.
And then you know we have we'rehighly regulated.
Of course you know we're afinancial company so we're
extremely regulated andsometimes you know those types
of problems that need to besolved whether it's compliance
or regulation needs to.
That trumps everything.
And so you know sometimes we'llspend part of the Sprint fixing
(15:44):
a disclosure or making sure thatwe're doing the right thing for
our customers in this way.
And even that results in moretrade offs.
But you know so in that way Iguess you have to pivot pretty
quickly.
But.
Yeah there's all those outsideforces.
It's a lot to deal with.
It's fun.
I love it but it's a lot.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
Yeah.
So do you see those constraintsas a challenge in a good way as
as beneficial to the work thatyou're doing or can they
sometimes be an obstacle.
Speaker 6 (16:16):
Yeah.
So I believe in constraintswholeheartedly.
This goes to the there's athere's a mindset that you know
you are going to go corporateand it's going to be stuffy and
you're going to be relegated toa great cubicle or you're going
to go to a startup and it'sgoing to be a lot of fun and
you're going to drink beer andplay pool.
(16:36):
The constraints in a corporatesetting I find to be so much
more uplifting and they spawn somuch creativity.
I really think I thrive in anarea where you can innovate and
sort of prescribes solutions ifyou will so being able to change
things even though there's a youknow there's a lot of corporate
(16:56):
process and there's a lot of.
Regulation and there's a lot ofother people that are impacted.
I find that.
I just I really enjoy that.
So you know I've done sort ofboth sides of that spectrum and
I really really prefer corporatewhich might be sort of weird to
hear but I think it's I thinkit's a lot more fun.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
No it is weird to hear because I'm very much cut
from the same cloth and I enjoyit for the same reasons I mean
I've worked in enterprise youknow for most of my career.
And that's those problems to meare much more interesting.
Number one it has everything todo with the constraint because
when I go back to his creativeprofessionals of any kind right.
(17:41):
If you talk to a writer you talkto a designer a U.S.
person even developers I thinkto some degree.
One of the hardest mostintimidating things that we ever
encounter is a blank pageabsolute blank slate.
Right okay there's nothing youknow that is buffing to go on.
There's no clear place to start.
(18:03):
Is no clear identified obstaclesor challenges.
So to me like you're saying Ithink all those constraints lend
themselves to what we do.
Yeah absolutely.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Makes for really interesting problems.
Absolutely.
We did years ago we were workingon a video sort of opening slate
for videos we doing and it wasbasically just animating a logo.
That was our only constraint.
And we took it to this amazingagency and we said do whatever
you want.
Go wild.
(18:35):
And they really struggled withit for that reason.
Yeah last week we gave them yeahand they I mean the stuff
they're bringing back we werejust you know again great agency
but we were not impressed and sowe started giving them some some
guardrails.
And yeah the thing that in theend was awesome but it took a
while to get there.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
Yeah.
And I see that over and over andover and over again that's why I
always say constraints are yourfriend.
Absolutely.
Yeah absolutely.
They really really really are.
And I always wonder.
I think there's this idea thatmaybe design schools are guilty
of this I don't know but I see alot in young designers.
What I see is that at thebeginning of their careers
(19:17):
they're very much into that ideaof you know like don't time my
hands.
Yep.
And after they get out there andstart doing the work they start
to feel the opposite which isthe center that you just
described once school to.
Speaker 6 (19:29):
You know there's no budgets.
There's there's a loose timelinethat's pretty long generally.
And you know the assignment isgo make a magazine cover.
Right.
You know you choose yourfavorite music genre and go make
amazing Courbet and you know youcan name it.
You can choose the images youcan choose the topography and
it's it's fun and you want totransfer that when you get out
of school but you can't go to aenterprize job and make a
(19:53):
magazine cover like that itdoesn't work.
Speaker 4 (19:55):
No no it doesn't.
So you went to the artists tocorrect.
I did.
And that was California I thinkwas San Diego.
What was that experience likeand how did it.
In what ways do you feel like itprepared you for what you're
doing now or what didn't either.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
In either case it was it was amazing for a couple of
reasons namely I guess I shouldsay in a way you were talking
about earlier is going toconventions for the energy and
meeting people and talking andmaybe not necessarily for the
speakers.
That was what art school was forme it was you know I met some
(20:33):
lifelong friends there.
And we did some great work.
And I definitely got some greatfundamentals there.
But it wasn't.
I put it this way after I gotout and got a job.
I learned so much more in thefirst four weeks of that job
than I ever did at school.
And so you know when you getwhen you're actually working and
you're thrown into some andsuddenly of clients waiting for
(20:53):
you and you've got an artdirector saying you've got to do
it this way and you've got apublisher saying we got to go to
print in seven days.
It's something totally differentthan than the school experience.
So I don't know how to recreatethat school.
Speaker 6 (21:06):
Maybe Jared spooled might be getting close to it
with high school but I thinkthat that is the biggest
disconnect between school andthe real world.
And it's it's something that Ihaven't seen recreated ever.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
Me either and I've been teaching part time at
various colleges since 1995.
Yeah and I have yet and there'sbeen some good programs and some
very good people so I don't wantto sound like I'm disparaging
anybody I'm not.
Yeah of course.
But these environments by andlarge are still extremely
isolated and what I'veexperienced in the courses I've
(21:43):
taught because I try to do it ina way that's a little more
realistic and sort of you knowgive the students realistic
problems to deal with inrealistic situations to deal
with.
Yep.
Is that it shocks them.
Yeah.
Now all of that leads me towonder and I'm curious you know
based on your experience and seewhat you think while college
(22:05):
programs are lacking the realworld element or context that
we're talking about here I oftenalso wonder whether there is a
balance to be struck OK resortand need the freeform stuff at
that stage in your life just tolearn how to absorb all this
stuff.
Yep you know right to sort ofget your true real first and
(22:25):
then OK here's how you actuallydrive on the road.
Yeah.
I wonder if that's a balancingact and how much of each is
really necessary.
Speaker 6 (22:34):
Yeah I think it's got to be right.
I think you have to learn thesort of your creative process.
You have to learn how you comeup with ideas and when you like
to work and what thoseconditions are like and then you
can transfer that out to thereal world.
And I think you will be muchmore successful when you are
thrown into the fire so tospeak.
So self discovery has to comefirst.
(22:56):
It has to I think yeah I have tounderstand what you like what
you don't.
You know the world is so bigespecially now the design world
is so big and there's so muchinformation that I think you
really have to figure out whoyou are first and then once you
get there I think it's easy tosort of transfer that out.
But it's still hard to prepareyourself for that.
(23:19):
I don't know maybe it's assimple as you know advisers
telling you Look it's going tobe way different when you get
out of here.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
And this is how that could be in terms of your own
career trajectory since you gotout of school.
How has that changed for you interms of what you started out
doing what you're doing now whatyou've done over over time and
how has that evolved.
Has it has it morphed has it hasit grown.
Speaker 6 (23:41):
Yeah I've been really lucky in that I have I've gotten
to do a ton of different thingsbecause I started in the visual
design area and you know firstjobs were working in magazines
and you know doing imageretouching and making
advertisements and things likethat.
(24:01):
And that transferred into youknow more sort of national
advertising and bigger biggerthings and packaging like 3D
design.
And then that sort oftransferred into interactive
design where you started gettinginto websites like the late 90s
early 2000s I guess.
(24:22):
And really getting into thisidea of digital design.
And so I've had jobs or I'vegotten to do all of that and run
those processes which has beenreally amazing.
The one sort of factor thatremain constant through all of
that was that I really love thepsychology behind it.
I loved being able to takesomebodies eye through some
(24:43):
messaging or being able to leadthem through.
An app so that they can achievethe task that they're doing.
And so that led me to to reallyunderstand and this might be
actually contrary to what I wasjust talking about it's called
really understand that you askedwas that the place that I was
meant to be.
Yeah in that I'm reallyunderstanding users and solving
(25:06):
problems and using you knowelements of psychology and
design and human architecture tobe able to solve problems which
is that which is where I amright now.
Speaker 4 (25:17):
And like I said I've been really lucky and I think
that's often what happens isthat the more you experience
your sort of sense of what youreally love about this changes
to some degree turn right foryou the way you've described it.
And I'm very much the same way Iwas I started out as a designer
write a print designer.
(25:37):
But the part that always was themost intriguing part was this
sort of general cognitive dancethat happens between what you
produce and how people receiveit and are affected by it.
Speaker 6 (25:52):
Yep yep absolutely.
And I like the.
I like this.
I've always like the thoughtthat your messaging has to work
on every medium.
So somebody has to be able tosee it on their phone.
It needs to work on TV and hasto work on a billboard.
It needs to work everywhere andbe consistent.
And I and I really enjoythinking about all those angles
and all those levers.
And so I got to do a lot of thatas an art director.
(26:14):
But it's it's different now I'mon a small design team and I get
to do end to end.
So now I get to use all of theexperience that I've had to go
to to start in research and andreally dig into how users are
using things and do a lot ofcontextual and query and
contextual interviews andtalking to people and move that
(26:36):
all the way through the designprocess you know through the
through the discovery and thewireframe and into final design
which is why I say I've beenlucky because I can do that
intent.
And it's it's so fun to me tosee one thing from beginning to
end is a blast Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:52):
And I think that's where the challenges for a lot
of us I think there are parts ofthat entire process that I think
to outside people would beoutside the realm of what a US
professional or designer orsomething like that actually
does.
It's all these little piecesthat don't fit neatly into the
job description.
I think that really get usexcited about what we do.
Speaker 6 (27:15):
Absolutely.
And I think the model that I'mtalking about this maybe
generalist model is it may notbe scalable to a degree.
If we were for people braggingI'm I'm 25 percent of the team
if we were 300 people then wemight have to be more
specialized and it might makemore sense to have a visual team
and a research team where peoplecan really use their skills to
(27:39):
to dig in and do what they'regood at versus generalists you
know I don't like this Jack ofAll Trades.
Because I think we can go deepin all of these disciplines.
But like I said I don't know ifit's scalable.
Speaker 4 (27:54):
Now I don't think it is.
And I think there's a line theresomewhere.
Right.
Right.
Between promoting yourself orattempting to be jack of all
trades right.
Excellent at everything.
I don't think that's possiblenumber one.
Sure but at the same time a sortof deep curiosity and respect
and acknowledgment of how thoseparts work together I think is a
(28:18):
critical part of the job.
For example I've had manymeetings over my career with
database architects.
OK.
They live in a world that isabsolutely foreign to me Toto.
These are some of the sharpestpeople I've ever met in my
entire life.
I mean the brainpower there isjust astounding to me.
Yup yup.
And although I don't get it.
(28:38):
And although I would never wantto die wholeheartedly into it I
have thoroughly enjoyed thosecollaborations because the
connections between what they doand what I do are very very
important and I think if youdon't go there at least and be
willing to try to immerseyourself and learn something I
think you're missing anopportunity to be better at your
(29:00):
part.
No man that's such a greatpoint.
Speaker 6 (29:03):
Absolutely.
I wish I could expand on itbecause it's such a great point
but there's nothing more to say.
Speaker 5 (29:08):
That's why I'm rarely that good.
That's it we're done here.
Speaker 4 (29:18):
The over overcooked.
Here's a question related to allthis that somebody threw out
Chris Alvan who I follow onTwitter said this last weekend.
Man what a great question.
I'm going to ask this in my nextinterview.
So here it is related everythingthat we're talking about.
First question is this what dopeople think that your role is.
Speaker 6 (29:41):
Amazing question.
They.
So it sort of depends on thecontext of the situation.
There were there were therelationships that I'm building
are at different levels.
So some people I may have helpedthem with some visual stuff some
well I may have you know takenthem through a design sprint and
(30:03):
gotten some great insights usinga quick prototype and some
contextual interviews.
So maybe a researcher to somepeople and maybe.
A graphic designer to somepeople.
You know sometimes I'm justsomebody they can bounce an idea
office and I can get into it.
So that's sort of.
Speaker 4 (30:23):
A nonanswer.
No it's not.
And here's sort of an additionto that.
Does that interpretation changebased on that person's role how
they see based on that person'srole.
In other words project managerssee you as one thing.
Developers see you as somethingelse.
You know your film immediateteam members see you as
(30:45):
something else.
Speaker 6 (30:46):
I don't think it's that specific.
I don't think it's rural.
I think it's maybe part of thebusiness that they're in and the
engagement that we've had.
So I work with a lot ofarchitects who can build
something in a flash what theyneed from me is a lot of our
direction.
I work with other groups thatyou know are really interested
(31:08):
in trying to figure out whichproblem they're solving and so I
work with them to do a lot offacilitation.
And.
You know a lot of research.
So I think it's more around thegroup and not necessarily the
individual.
And you know it's always theirproblem.
Now I will say I'm trying to toget them all to to see me as
(31:29):
sort of a strategist andsomebody that can help in tandem
and they can bring me in reallyearly and I can talk about.
The problem that we're solvingand I can validate that it's a
problem.
You know and we can move onthrough the design process from
there.
You know and I'm not.
There was some some of thebusinesses and some of them are
very much there.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
So now we just got to the second question that he
asked which is what is your rolereally.
Yeah.
So it sounds like you're tryingto do.
Yeah.
Just rewind this about 20seconds let's say I'm I'm.
Speaker 6 (32:08):
It's tough.
I am I see myself as astrategist.
But I'm not that to to everyoneso my role really is whatever
people need at the time really.
And again I've been lucky inthat I can do a lot of that.
You know I would say thatresearch is my weakest area in
that I'm not familiar enoughwith you know calculating
(32:30):
confidence intervals and thingslike that but I can I can
definitely get in and validate aproblem and I can moderate
usability tests or whatever itneeds to be so it's it's that
I'm trying to be everything toeveryone.
And maybe that's to my detrimentactually.
But you know it's aboutrelationships.
Speaker 4 (32:49):
It is par for the course inside an organization
and part of a collaborative teamof any kind.
Even if you're working as anoutside consultant I think
that's par for the course.
Speaker 6 (32:58):
Yeah and success for me there is if they will
consider me as a design expertwell and they will anytime they
think they need something designrelated to contact me that is
that's it really that that makesme happy so I see that as
success.
And I can them that says right.
Speaker 4 (33:17):
And it sounds value valuable is the word I was going
for there hopefully.
I think it's valuable.
Have you ever been asked to dosomething that is far outside of
your comfort zone or yourexpertise that you were
uncomfortable with.
Speaker 6 (33:32):
Oh yeah yeah all the time.
It depends on what we're talkingabout so I've been asked to fly
to Poland and give apresentation on or online
advertising.
That was that was years ago butthat was terrifying not defined
to Poland.
I love travel but you knowgetting up in front of people
(33:53):
and speaking has always beenscary for a lot of people
including myself.
But it's also one of the mostfun I've ever had.
That stuff like that is amazing.
So I really like it when when Iwas asked that you know.
There are some times when I knowthat maybe I can add a lot of
value.
(34:13):
So I will connect them withsomebody in order to get them
where they need to be.
If it's if it's too much butwe're talking about being
uncomfortable I actually reallylike that.
Speaker 4 (34:24):
So the speaking thing when they asked you to do this
did it surprise you that youenjoyed it.
Speaker 6 (34:30):
Once you sort of do yeah maybe a little.
Yeah it was I was focused on theact of standing there and
talking and it's so much morethan that.
It's you know not to be toocliche but it's it's telling a
story and it's engaging with anaudience and it's trying to
build this sort of almostdramatic arc of storyline so
(34:51):
that you can deliver somethingimpactful and interesting to
them.
So it's more than just it's morethan just it's it's trying to
deliver something by viable thatpeople that are sitting in
trainings for you know a weekeight hours a day.
I find that part of it reallyinteresting so.
I didn't know that I like thatuntil I did it but you know I've
(35:12):
I've done a ton of speakingsince then and I really like it.
I like the preparation.
I even like practicing thespeeches and stuff cool
invariably.
Yeah invariably I never reallysay what I plan to say.
But.
Speaker 5 (35:29):
There.
It's critical.
That's why I don't rehearse.
Speaker 4 (35:34):
I just I get years ago I gave up.
Yeah it is.
They said you know it.
This is just dumb.
I'm going to go up there andI've got to say what I'm going
to say.
So whatever.
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (35:46):
But you know there are a couple approaches.
I mean I'm sort of in themiddle.
I may need to choose a side butI can't just get up there and
wing it.
I need to know my concepts bythen of course I don't I don't
feel very confident if I don'trun over.
At least seven to ten times.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
Do you think there are some parallels in doing that
storytelling and making sure youcommunicate with people.
Are there some parallels thereto what you do on a daily and
weekly basis.
Sure absolutely.
Speaker 6 (36:17):
And that's one of the things that the team talks about
all the time.
You know.
I've said it like three timesnow communication is so
important.
And you know this I just heard agreat quote about misinformation
being the biggest killer of yourbusiness.
And I think yeah I think it'strue though I think anytime
you're up there and you'retalking about something and
(36:39):
you're sort of bay it reallydilutes your story.
It doesn't help anybody andeverybody leaves that meeting
having a slightly differentinterpretation of what you're
talking about.
And you are sunk at that point.
So yeah I work on.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
ROCK Yeah and I think I'm of the belief that it takes
a certain amount of couragequite frankly to speak plainly
and clearly and to do so in away where it's humble and you're
not presenting yourself as a youknow the ultimate authority and
what I mean by that is and thiscame up yesterday I was
(37:18):
interviewed for a podcast thatcame up yesterday about language
OK.
And clients in acronyms andjargon and terminology.
Yes all of those things getthrown out.
And this is just Joe's opinion.
OK.
I think that a big part of thereason people on all sides of
every fence talk like that rightlike that present like that is
(37:40):
because there's two reasons.
Number one they've sort of beentrained and told in a of the
belief that that's how you soundwhen you are a quote unquote
expert.
Yep and the second part is ahealthy degree of fear and
insecurity which we all have.
Yes.
Because you worry that you soundlike you know what you're
(38:00):
talking about.
Speaker 6 (38:02):
Yep exactly right now.
It's a big fear.
Speaker 4 (38:04):
And I think in both cases I think in both cases it
doesn't help anybody.
Speaker 6 (38:12):
Yeah.
And that's the bigger pointyeah.
You know the fear of not lookinglike you know what you're
talking about is huge.
Yeah.
And I noticed that myselfsometimes yeah I really really
really try to avoid jargon.
My wife is a teacher and shehates it all she hurts herself
rolling her eyes.
Speaker 5 (38:32):
So I try to it but it hurts her so explain that point
go you know.
Speaker 6 (38:39):
You know you just it doesn't help anything.
I think that now is what we'resaying.
So I agree with you.
Speaker 4 (38:45):
It just it's just it's reduces the chances of
understanding I am of the frameof mind where you should always
assume that nobody in the roomknows what you're talking about.
Speaker 6 (38:55):
Yeah.
Yeah sure.
And even if you use some sort ofyou know office talk that seems
to make sense to everyone.
It still leaves room forinterpretation.
And I think that is where youare not trying to be vague but
you're being vague and suddenlyyou are undermining yourself.
Speaker 4 (39:15):
Yeah and it comes across in public spaces as well.
It comes across as arrogance tome.
There are a lot of organizationswho I respect.
OK.
Now that's still default to thisthey'll post something read on
Facebook or Twitter or onLinkedIn.
And it's this sort of pithyquick statement that is that is
(39:37):
designed in a way that if you'rein the know how you'll know what
it means you know and thatbothers the hell out of me.
OK.
Like there are people out therewho need to hear what you have
to say.
You have a valuable point ofview.
You have something of importanceto express why in the hell would
you want to do it in a way wherepeople actually get the message
that Romney does not sir.
(39:58):
That's a great point.
I care about too many things.
You know I keep thinking that asI get older all of chill out
about some of the stuff ithasn't happened yet.
Now that's good.
That's what makes you you know Iguess.
Good man I guess I guess itlooks to me when I look at your
(40:19):
history you're linked in profilefor example.
It looks to me like you havebeen there aside from the jobs
you've had you've beenfreelancing for a very long time
is that something you're stilldoing in addition to the job.
Speaker 6 (40:30):
Not lately.
So since I joined the largefinancial institution that I
work at yeah I haven't done it.
But it's something that I'vedone over the years.
So first of all I never set outto be a straight up freelancer.
It's not me chasing down workand trying to get sales is just
not me.
(40:51):
So I think what I've always hadpeople that needed help you know
a small business is trying toget off the ground.
It's like that I really enjoyhelping those out.
And I've gotten a chance to doit for money in the past but
it's not something that I do nowfor a couple reasons.
Speaker 7 (41:09):
The biggest probably being that I don't want to
compete with the job I'm inright now.
But.
Speaker 6 (41:14):
Also I have no time I have a 6 year old and a 3 year
old so I don't know if any anyminute any second that I have is
spent helping them or hangingout with them or taking them to
the park.
Speaker 4 (41:27):
So yeah sure.
So out of curiosity and this isgoing to sound like a request of
a mascot anyway.
Good.
How has if it has.
How is having kids change yourperspective.
Me either on what you do for aliving or how you do it or just
maybe maybe just your worldviewin general.
Speaker 6 (41:47):
Great question.
So there's a few ways.
Speaker 7 (41:51):
First of all what's important has changed for me
quite a bit.
You know I used to I used tothink you know I can do.
I can take any job and you know.
I live in Providence but I couldcommute to Washington D.C.
If I had to for the right job.
I felt like the job was reallyimportant and I still think it
is.
You spend a very largepercentage of your life at work.
(42:12):
And so I think enjoying what youdo is is really key.
But you know there are somethings that I can give up in
order to be able to see my kids.
You know you're one of the oneof the reasons for my last job
change was I was leaving thehouse before the kids were awake
and I was coming home aftertheir sleep.
They started not to recognize meand it was sort of a going
(42:34):
epiphany moment where you knowI'm standing in a store and my
son is making a noise that Ididn't understand or that I that
I had never heard him and so Icalled my wife and I was like
you know listen to this whatdoes he do.
Is he OK and she's like he'swhining.
Does this all the time.
And I was like Man that was wassort of it.
(42:55):
Like I realized that I wasfocusing on the wrong thing and
it sort of changed.
That changed my view of what'simportant.
The world view is I've alwayshad this world view that I want
everything to be as good aspossible and what I mean by that
is you know people are alwaysdoing the right thing and people
are always well-intentioned.
(43:16):
And and things like that.
Speaker 6 (43:17):
And I think one of the things I would love to leave
for them is that the thoughtprocess that people are ways
mean the best people areinherently good.
Now you know that that runs therisk of being naive obviously.
So there's a there's a line thatbut I want them to have that
type of outlook.
(43:38):
And so I try and bolster that inthem all the time.
Speaker 4 (43:42):
Which is which is good.
And that's that's one of thehardest parts of being a parent
is because you have to reconcilethe fact that a lot about life
is less than perfect.
And in some cases it's downrightugly.
Difficult.
Yes.
Absolutely.
The goal to understand and toexplain and at the same time you
(44:05):
want to make sure I agree withyou that your kids grow up with
hope.
You know with positivity withbelieving.
That yeah you know sometimesthings do work right.
People are for the most partgood.
And I think that's a tall orderfor anybody.
Yeah.
It keeps me up at night butthat's it.
(44:26):
You just said the word is hope.
It's one of the reasons and I'dbe curious to see what your
opinion is on this withoutdiving too deeply into this
topic.
There are a lot of instanceswhere we now have social media
we all platform people wholisten to what we have to say on
small and large scales.
(44:47):
Things are happening in theworld in our country in
particular with our government.
It is difficult line for mepersonally to walk to say OK I
really feel like I'm shirking myresponsibility to people who pay
attention to what I say.
If I don't speak up about thisat the same time.
(45:10):
You're also worried at that thatyou know now you're going to
become just another politicalcommentator and I don't want to
beat here.
I don't right.
I just I wonder if you ever feelpulled that way and what your
thoughts are about you knowfolks in high profile positions
(45:32):
who at times instead of speakingabout design.
You know pipe up about what'sgoing on in their world.
Speaker 6 (45:41):
Very interesting question.
So I have a lot of strongthoughts about it.
And I talk to my kids about it alot.
My 6 year old especially yeahshe's sort of interested in.
So what I do is in a lot ofcases I just won't say anything
right.
I'll just stop because I knowthat I am passionate about a lot
(46:03):
of these things and I can I cantalk about it a whole lot or I
can argue about it if you will awhole lot.
So I I try and generally stayaway from it.
But I think what you're talkingabout is a slightly different
and I do I think it's importantto get the truth out in the
(46:24):
right message you know and thethere's so much going on right
now that is glossed over or spuna certain way.
And you know it may be comingfrom advertising.
Speaker 7 (46:34):
I have a sort of a reaction to it but I think words
are really powerful and I thinkthat people can be swayed in a
direction that even underminestheir possibly their own
self-interest because they hearcertain words put together in a
certain way.
And in Syria I think.
I think people with a platformhave a right to say the truth.
(46:54):
There's a there's a line therethough you know obviously you
can get up and use your platformto say things and then suddenly
it's it's useless.
So but I think you have tocounteract that with the message
of hope that we were talkingabout earlier.
Speaker 4 (47:08):
And that's that's been the hard part.
Sure.
You know it's been the hardpart.
It's hard to counteract thatimpulse.
To say my God I can't believethis is happening I can't
believe that people are sayingand doing these things out loud.
Yeah I'm sure and it'sheightened when like you said
when you have kids you become alot more sensitive to it at
(47:29):
least I most certainly did andcertainly am right now.
Toner.
My own biggest fear.
OK I have two daughters andwatching a lot of what's going
on right now you know you feellike it's dangerous to remain
silent.
Yeah.
Oh my god yes.
Because silence because silencecan equal agreement.
And I'm you.
Know I am really afraid of that.
(47:51):
But it's tough.
It's tough.
And I hope I guess all we canhope for is you try to err on
the side of you cost of thatwhen you see it.
But you also try to make sureyou're being supportive and
positive in some way.
I don't always win that battlebut I sure as hell try.
Yeah it's hard and I'm sure.
(48:12):
You know I don't have theproblem that you have so I'm
sure that a lot of struggle andsometimes you know people say
shut up and talk about you X anddesign.
Right.
You know I know I really get itsir.
But you know so it's a it's aconstant struggle.
Yeah that's what people want tohear from me and that's where my
(48:35):
value is and I should be doingthat.
At the same time it's reallyhard for me to say OK I'm never
going to talk when there's loadsof Ray.
You know.
It's there.
You know there were of coursewhether you want to deal or not.
Oh god it's definitely there.
All right we're about a littleless than 10 minutes out so I
(48:56):
would like to ask you some quicksort of hotseat questions which
hopefully won't answer.
Not not yet.
Well sir easy.
All right.
Favorite movie of all time.
Wow.
It's an easy you can choose abook as well.
Speaker 6 (49:11):
Well I do a lot of reading so it's it's usually the
the book that I'm reading at thetime I'm reading principles by
radio right now and it's it'sreally interesting it's it's
amazing that he can live hislife and run his business in the
way that he does.
It's really good.
I would say the movie would be atoss up.
There's one called Hall junkies.
(49:34):
That is amazing.
And then of course Star Warscame out on my birthday and I
grew up with Star Wars to goexcept for the pretty cool ones.
I would have to go with StarWars.
Why.
If you're able to explain whyStar Wars.
Yeah.
You know it was in my life.
I went to see it when I was Ithink it was three.
It's just been in my life eversince and I just like the
(49:58):
storyline.
I like the characters.
I just it's one of those thingsthat is just always been there
and it's got a great deal depth.
Speaker 4 (50:05):
It does.
I mean it really has an amazingdegree of depth when you really
look at it.
Yeah definitely.
See that was easy.
All right.
So tell me something a hiddentalent for example that you have
that either nobody knows aboutor not too many people know
about a hidden talent well orsomething you do that nobody
(50:26):
knows about.
Speaker 6 (50:26):
So it's something that I do all the time that I
find a bunch of value in is Idigitize everything and it's all
in the name of you know thesethey're almost like notes.
So any time I'll draw flow on aboard I will put it in sketch.
I have a library built where Ican just grab symbols and put
(50:49):
them on there and I canillustrate flows really quickly
and that and then I can leavethem on my sketch file.
And I always have this sort offrame of reference for what I'm
doing to help guide theinteraction.
They're throwaways you know andI spend I spent some time on
them not too much but they'rethey're sort of something that
nobody ever sees.
(51:10):
But I take great pride in themand I really like I enjoy making
up interest.
Speaker 4 (51:14):
So you're more of a scanning than you're actually
recreating them in sketch.
Speaker 6 (51:17):
I do.
And it gives me a chance torethink.
The interactions that I've drawnon a whiteboard and it gives me
a chance to go over them again.
And then I have it as a frame ofreference right there in my
sketch right.
Speaker 4 (51:29):
I think that's incredibly valuable.
And you the first person I'veever talked to has told me that
they've done something like thatreally that's cool.
Speaker 6 (51:38):
I thought it wouldn't be that much of a hidden thing
but I love it.
Speaker 4 (51:42):
I really know what I'm sitting here going what a
great idea.
Because for multiple reasons.
It's the old thing about from apsychological perspective a
cognitive perspective is theprocessing right.
Yep you're involved you'rereally involved in your thinking
about it in the act of taking itand recreating it automatically
he invites you to rethinkthrough everything.
(52:05):
I think that's incrediblyvaluable.
Speaker 6 (52:07):
Yeah that and it helps you understand that you
know we're looking at a tradingsystem is incredibly complex and
there's a lot of differentscenarios and you can you can go
through and really understandwhich one works here and which
one doesn't work here and whichyou know what this fellow needs.
And yeah I find it hugelybeneficial.
Speaker 4 (52:27):
Wow that's powerful write that one down.
Folks it's good.
I'm seriously thinking about OKhow can I start doing the same
thing.
You taught me something.
It's all about sketch libraries.
I can send you want if you want.
Awesome.
Next question.
What word or phrase do you say.
Far too often far too often.
Speaker 6 (52:47):
Well I say too much I'm sure.
Definitely I say man.
Speaker 4 (52:52):
I overuse my hand.
In what way.
Speaker 6 (52:58):
I've been known to start and end sentences with the
word man.
Yeah sometimes it's I thinkmaybe it's an effort to be
casual.
But you know I think I'ddefinitely use it in the wrong
places sometimes.
And then there's two great wordsand they are sought in
leadership.
But I hate it when they'restrung together in a sentence.
(53:19):
And so I use those sometimesbecause that's one of those
things where everybody knows inmy specific context everybody
knows what I'm talking about.
Speaker 4 (53:27):
But it just I take a shower and it feels right.
All right so you're on the heelsof that.
Give me another phrase that thatevokes the same clinginess in
you know.
Speaker 6 (53:47):
Well I think it would be too obvious to pick you know
the jargony ones like circleback.
And you know.
I know what I do.
I use the word just sometimes inan e-mail.
And so in an effort to set atone.
You know just checking in hereare something and that feel like
it makes me almost like I'mapologizing beforehand and I try
(54:09):
not to do that.
But I definitely I hate it whenyou know I'll send an e-mail and
then somebody will respond backand reread what I sent and I'm
like OK.
Speaker 4 (54:21):
So I do that sometimes that urge never goes
away.
I'm here to tell you I have itfor your book that it is never
going away because I'm guilty ofit as well.
Yeah.
Hey just just checking in tobecome part of you and I'll be
honest with you it bothers thehell out of me when people just
(54:42):
go silent.
Oh sure.
OK.
On the conversation that drivesme absolutely insane Sheriff is
that there's no excuse OK totake three seconds shoot e-mail
back and say hey slammed rightnow.
Sorry I haven't got back to you.
I promise I will write as soonas possible.
I don't even care when the dateis.
All right it's just anacknowledgment of I've left you
(55:04):
hanging.
Yeah.
All right I think that'simportant so people will do
that.
I'm always on the fence abouthow to respond because I want to
say when I want to say but see Idon't want to.
Pick a fight for no reason youdon't have to go home in a
person's life.
OK.
Could your god forbid it couldbe something serious right.
Well I tend to do the samething.
They had just pissed me overhere.
Speaker 3 (55:27):
Like you it's this probably about as well in tone
is tough to convey over e-mailso sometimes it works to set a
good tone.
Speaker 4 (55:36):
But no.
All right final hotseatquestion.
And Ryan it's a big one as well.
You're going to hate me butthat's OK.
You have the proverbial one wishand it can't be Temeraire
wishes.
What is it.
Wow.
I don't have one wish.
(55:58):
Just one.
Choose wisely.
Speaker 6 (56:01):
Yeah I need like a day or so to think about you
know my brain is going two waysand they both sound really
selfish and trite but obviouslythey act the one way should be
that my my kids and my familyhave great lives and they grow
up healthy and have a fulfillinghappy lives.
(56:24):
The other one would be and thisone's really trite but I don't
want to be world peace.
And I don't mean that in theMiss America Pageant way.
But I mean it in that everybodysees the good in everybody else
and that everybody is inherentlywell-intentioned without being
naive.
So that would be a tough wish toget across.
(56:44):
But.
Speaker 4 (56:45):
I don't think that's shredded at all.
And after talking to you youknow for an hour I think it's a
pretty accurate summary of whoyou are referring.
Well thank you very much.
It has been my absolute pleasuretalking to you.
I wish you continued success andall good things keep us abreast
of what's going on with you.
And we will talk again soon.
Speaker 1 (57:08):
That wraps up this edition of making us work.
Thanks for listening and I hopehearing these stories provide
some useful perspective andencouragement along with the
reminder that you're not aloneout there.
Before I go I want you to knowthat you can find shows and
links to the things mentionedduring our conversation by
visiting give good you X.comslash podcast.
(57:29):
You'll also find links to moreUS resources on the web and
social media along with ways tocontact me if you're interested
in sharing your own story here.
Speaker 2 (57:38):
Until next time this is Joe Anatoliy reminding you
that it's people like you whomake us work.
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