Episode 09, Peter Kaizer :: Designing with the head, the heart and the hands

My guest today is Peter Kaizer, a UX designer and developer with over 20 years of professional experience. What’s particularly interesting is that Peter started his career making things with his hands, namely what he calls "functional pottery."

That's an altogether different kind of user experience — but as you'll hear, this approach and experience absolutely informs the digital products that he creates. The result is an emphasis on things that are both highly functional and beautifully designed.

Peter describes himself as creative, collaborative, curious, opinionated and optimistic. He is all that and more, my friends; you're going to enjoy this one.

Twitter:

@pdkaizer

Facebook:

pkaizer

LinkedIn:

pdkaizer

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Website:

peterkaizer.com

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Episode Transcript

Joe Natoli (00:07):
Hello and welcome to Making UX Work, the Give Good UX
podcast.
I'm your host Joe Natoli, andour focus here is on folks like
you doing real, oftenunglamorous UX work in the real
world.
You'll hear about theirstruggles, their successes and
their journey to and through thetrenches of product design,
development and, of course, userexperience.

(00:32):
My guest today is Peter Kaizer,a user experience designer and
developer with over 20 years ofprofessional experience.
What's particularly interestinghere is that Peter started his
career making things with hishands— which is an altogether
different kind of userexperience— but absolutely
informs the digital productsthat he creates.
The result is an emphasis onthings that are highly

(00:53):
functional and beautifullydesigned.
Peter describes himself ascreative, collaborative,
curious, opinionated andoptimistic.
And as I think you'll hear inthis conversation, he is all
that and more.
Here's my conversation withPeter Kaizer on Making UX Work.

(01:16):
So Peter how are you?

Peter Kaizer (01:17):
I'm good.
I'm good.
Thanks for having me on.
Really appreciate it.

Joe Natoli (01:22):
Thanks for joining.
It's been quite awhile since youand I talked in person.

Peter Kaizer (01:27):
Yeah, I'm trying to remember when it was...
I think I was still at the largenonprofit, Catholic Relief
Services, where I was thedigital director for many many
years for nearly 15 years.

Joe Natoli (01:41):
Which is a long time.
I think we were talking aboutactually doing a podcast,
weren't we?

Peter Kaizer (01:47):
I think we were going to.
I do, actually.
So here we are.

Joe Natoli (01:54):
Isn't that crazy?

Peter Kaizer (01:55):
Yeah, well podcasts are having a moment
right now.
I mean they have been for awhile.

Joe Natoli (02:01):
Yeah I think so.
I think so.

Well let me ask you (02:04):
Why do you think that is?

Peter Kaizer (02:07):
You know, a little bit of it is it's part of the
democratization of technology.
I mean if you think about itwhen— I'm probably a little bit
older than you are— but when wewere young, we'd listen to, you
know, somebody on the radiobroadcast or you know, a woman
or a man and think"oh that'scool." But but we had no access

(02:30):
to being able to do somethinglike that.
And now you can make an A movieon an iPhone.

Joe Natoli (02:39):
Yeah we've come a long way.

Peter Kaizer (02:43):
I think that that's part of it.
I also think that increasinglypeople just want more control
over their information.
I mean that, and that's a doubleedged sword.
I think a little bit becausethere are forces out there at
play and I don't want to sort ofget into the sorry state of our
of our society, we'll be hereforever.

(03:08):
But you can you know...allyou've got to do is just look
out the window.

Joe Natoli (03:14):
Yeah, I think and I agree with you I always wonder
if part of this isn't peoplejust sort of trying to take back
the truth in a way.
The state of sort of"broadcast"where, you know, the few get to
dictate to the many, I mean thatthat started to end...you know,
with the Internet.
But yeah I have to wonder if alot of this isn't just people

(03:36):
saying"you know what, I'm tiredof this and I want something
else.
I want something that with moredepth with more humanity with
more truth," you know?
So they're doing it.

Peter Kaizer (03:47):
Absolutely.
I also think, look, I come fromthe world of the maker.
So I started my creative careeras you know, as a kid when I was
12 years old making stuff withmy hands.
And so I'm a child of the 60s.

(04:08):
I was born in 1957, so I grew upthrough the 60s and you know as
a as a young kid in the late 60sI started making stuff actually
out of leather with my hands andthen I started making handmade
pottery and I did thatprofessionally for a long time.
So I came through that sort ofstudio Crafts movement.

Joe Natoli (04:26):
Yeah I saw that in your in your profile.

Peter Kaizer (04:28):
The"do it yourself" kind of thing and I
think now, with technology,we're in this new 21st century
age of do it yourself.

Joe Natoli (04:38):
Yeah.
Yep.

Peter Kaizer (04:40):
And so I think podcasts are really a part of
that in a way, the access to thetechnology.
I mean even 10 years ago, itwould be hard to do what we're
doing right now.

Joe Natoli (04:51):
No question, no question.
It was sort of a privilegedposition, you know, to be able
to put stuff like this out intothe world.

Peter Kaizer (05:00):
Absolutely.
Indeed.

Joe Natoli (05:02):
So let me ask you a question.
I mean I saw on your profile,you know, the studio craftsman
bit with handcrafted pottery andthings like that.
I mean that was, from the looksof it, was like 18 years of your
life.
So, and as you said you startedworking with your hands at a
very early age.
So one of the things I've beeneternally curious about, OK, in
terms of— especially as digitaldesign has replaced print

(05:25):
design, where there's notangible thing you hold in your
hands when this is done, asidefrom tapping it on the screen
maybe.

Peter Kaizer (05:33):
Right.

Joe Natoli (05:33):
Do you feel like the absence of that— the absence of
tactile senses— contributes tothis sense of...
man, I don't want to get hugehere but but it always, it's
always on my mind...
That, I don't know this sense of...

(05:54):
hollowness, emptiness, I don'tknow what to call it.

Peter Kaizer (05:56):
Well I'm going to answer the question, I think,
from sort of the other side.
Which is I have always felt thatI am very good at what I do
because I spent so much of mylife basically defining user
experience by creating actualphysical objects that people
used every day.

Joe Natoli (06:17):
Agreed.

Peter Kaizer (06:18):
So I made pottery and before that, you know,
handcrafted leather goods thatwere functional, that people
use.
So wallets, belts, handbags andthen in pottery, very functional
pottery that was always reallyintended to be used in the
preparation and serving andenjoyment of meals, of good food

(06:42):
and drink.
So when you make, I don't know,a thousand coffee mugs a year
that somebody is going to drinktheir morning coffee out of, you
pay attention to details.
Like what does the lip feel likeon a person's lip as they're
drinking their morning coffee,or what does a cereal bowl feel

(07:03):
like in their hand as they're,as they're you know, eating
their morning cereal.
Or what does that pitcher feellike when you pour orange juice
out of it.
Is it weighted correctly, isbalanced right.
So you learn about, really,about the usability of things
and of course you know, look,one of the Bibles for all of us

(07:24):
designers is Don Norman's theDesign of Everyday Things.

Joe Natoli (07:30):
Absolutely.

Peter Kaizer (07:30):
That has that famous picture, I always laugh
at this picture on the cover ofthe weird Victorian teapot, the
spout.
You know, it was like How canyou pour something out of that?

Joe Natoli (07:43):
Exactly.

Peter Kaizer (07:44):
So I guess, to answer your question, yes, I
think if you haven't spent timemaking products or objects that
people actually use with theirhands, I think, in a way, maybe
you miss out on fullyunderstanding what user

(08:04):
experience can be.

Joe Natoli (08:06):
Yeah and I agree with that.
I think there's a dimensionmissing.
You know it doesn't.
I don't know that necessarilymakes people, um...
it's not a detriment to theirskill set.
But I do think, like you'resaying, there's a dimension of
understanding that's sort of notthere.
From a user's perspective,though, I mean one of the things

(08:28):
that I guess I'm trying to getat is when you use a digital
product— to me, all right, andmaybe this is because of my age
as well— there is somethingmissing, there is an...
there is an element of use ofengagement of feedback, I don't
know what it is that is missing.
As opposed to when you use aphysical product, you know, in

(08:51):
your head, whether that's a toolor a book or you know driving
your car...
It's like this thing about selfdriving cars.

Peter Kaizer (08:59):
Yeah.
Yeah

Joe Natoli (08:59):
Right?
Part of the reason I hate it, Ihate the idea of it— I think if
I'm I'm being honest— is that Idon't want to let go of the
experience of DRIVING the car.

Peter Kaizer (09:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
No I think you're right.
I think you see it even in, youknow, the digitization of audio
in music.
So you know, the audiophilesthat I knew as a kid, you know,
they wanted to hear the sort ofthe warmth of the sound, that a

(09:31):
needle on on vinyl has.
I mean, I knew audiophiles thatwere like, they were even crazy
about the shape of the wire thatwas connecting their speaker,
how that flat wax ribbon copperwire would transmit sound, you
know.
So there is there's a lot ofsort of tactile aspects to

(09:53):
producing digital products.

Joe Natoli (09:55):
You know, Neil Young has been trying forever to come
up with this different sort ofcompression scheme for audio.
For that reason I tend to agreewith what he says, that there's
an entire spectrum of sound thatis missing from digital music.
For instance, I refuse to usewireless headphones.

Peter Kaizer (10:14):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (10:15):
Because I've listened to them and they do
sound good, don't get me wrong.
But to me, there's a big chunkof stuff on the spectrum that is
that is missing for me

Peter Kaizer (10:26):
Right.
It's almost like we've made itso clean that it's lost, you
know, sort of we cleaned evensome of the life out of it.

Joe Natoli (10:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah! The humanity, the humanity sort
of comes out of it.

Peter Kaizer (10:38):
Yeah yeah.
Yep.

Joe Natoli (10:40):
I ran a small record label for a couple of years, it
was like I don't know three orfour years.
And one of my partners had astudio, so we used to record
bands as well.
So I've produced a handful ofbands and one of the things that
I sort of insisted on— and wetried it both ways, OK— but one
of the things I started toinsist on is that the band has

(11:04):
to play live together.
I don't know what that is.
I don't have a name for it.
All I know is that when you runseparate tracks and everybody
tracks themselves bythemselves...

Peter Kaizer (11:15):
Yeah

Joe Natoli (11:16):
Something DIES.
Something goes away and themusic is perfect and it's to a
click track and it's pristineand all the stuff.
But there's something somethingthat punches you in the chest
that's missing.
It's not there anymore.

Peter Kaizer (11:27):
Yeah.
No, I mean, I think I think theother thing with— back to your
question about what's missingwith digital products— so and
you know we've been through, interms of sort of design
approaches or designedparadigms, we you know we've
been through the skeumorphic ageof software design where that

(11:49):
note-taking software looks likea, you know, lined ledger paper
and that, you know, that audiointerface has dials and stuff on
it.
It looks like dials even thoughthere are digital controls.
And so you know there there issomething kind of virtual about
digital products, that you can'tactually touch them with your

(12:12):
hands.
And I'll be curious like to fastforward, in.
I think probably 10, 15, 20years, because I think the
physical screen is ultimatelygoing to go away from a digital
product perspective.
I think we're going to wind upwith, you know, interfaces that

(12:34):
are maybe not, probably not trueVirtual Reality interfaces, but
mixed reality or augmentedreality interfaces.
You're going to access the newsfeeds that you want to read kind
of virtually, through a pair oflight field projection glasses
that are basically going to beamthat data directly into your

(12:55):
retinas.
I think that's ultimately wherewe're going.

Joe Natoli (12:59):
Do you think some of the sensory experience will come
back in a sort of virtualreality situation like that?

Peter Kaizer (13:05):
Well I think it, I think it can.
I mean, that's sort of thepromise of virtual reality is
that it can be more immersive.
Now, you know are we going toget to a"Ready Player One"
state?
Oh I hope not, because that wasa sorry, sorry commentary on

(13:26):
society.
Fun to read, but...
And I thought the book was waybetter than the movie.

Joe Natoli (13:36):
I didn't read the book.

Peter Kaizer (13:38):
The book is, the book is really good.
I read the book first, actually.
And I am glad I did, actually.

Joe Natoli (13:47):
What was the core difference, out of curiosity?

Peter Kaizer (13:49):
Well so, the way that the group of five, you
know, meet, they don't meet inperson nearly as soon in the
book as they do in the movie.
In fact, they don't really meetin person till the very end of
the book.
But you know Spielberg had to.

(14:10):
And the author of the book— I'mblanking on his name right now—
but had you know he was he wrotethe screenplay.
So it was it was a slightly itwas a pretty radically different
story.
And I mean the premise was thesame and everything but.
But anyway I you know I hopewe're not there, we don't get,
you know, the future is thatpeople who are sort of so walled

(14:34):
off basically, walking down thestreet, living in their own
world.
I hope that whatever sort ofaugmented reality evolves that
it it allows sort of a amutually beneficial coexistence
between the real world at handand the virtual world.

Joe Natoli (14:52):
Well, I agree with that.
I mean I think that's one ofthe...
That's one of the sort ofnegative sides of the way we use
technology right now, that thereis a great degree of isolation.
We get a world full of peoplestaring down into their phones.

Peter Kaizer (15:08):
Yes.

Joe Natoli (15:08):
Twenty out of 24 hours a day.
Yeah you know, and I understand;I've been plenty guilty of it
myself.
And you have to really forceyourself, sort of, not to do it,
because it's always there.

Peter Kaizer (15:22):
I agree.
I had so I was on a podcastearlier this year.
A friend of mine does a podcastwith his brother, about...
It's called"the stories ourrobots tell us."

Joe Natoli (15:39):
Great title.

Peter Kaizer (15:40):
Yeah it's a great it's a great title.
I'll email you a link to thepodcast.
And I so I started listening toit and it's really about sort of
how we inform our technology andhow our technology informs us.
And it's a fun conversationthese guys go through.
So I I listened to a couple ofepisodes and I emailed this

(16:02):
friend of mine and I said, youknow,"hey, great! I've been
enjoying it.
Here's a question for anepisode: Can robots make art?"
And he said,"Oh, great idea.
You have a unique perspective onthat given your background.
Would you like to be a guest onit?"

Joe Natoli (16:20):
Sounds awesome.

Peter Kaizer (16:21):
So I'll send you a link to that for that episode
because, it was it wascurious...
and this gets back to that sortof what's missing in digital
products that you are talkingabout.
To me art— and let's set asidethe sort of, the whole you know,
raging debate that has gone onin the, you know,"is it art or

(16:42):
is it craft."

Joe Natoli (16:44):
Yeah, we won't go there.

Peter Kaizer (16:46):
I don't want to go there because or somebody you
know permutations of that.
But.
To me, art is something thatelicits an emotion from
somebody.
Whether it's, you know,something that's hanging on the
wall, whether it's something youlisten to, whether it's
something you read, whether it'ssomething you watch on a screen,

(17:07):
whether it's an object that youthat you use.
So it should elicit some sort ofemotional response, which makes
me think well, the maker of thatobject should be able to
experience emotion.
And I'm not sure robots can yet.

Joe Natoli (17:21):
Yeah, right, right.
We're not there yet.
We're certainly not there yet.
And I think that's part of theproblem.
Because you just you just hit onsomething that, to me, is really
important that the maker needsto be able to experience
emotion.
I think that is one of my bighang ups.
You just gave it a name or adefinition.

(17:43):
I'm constantly reading about,you know, these these automatic
frameworks OK?
They create web layouts, theycreate interfaces and they
create, you know, responsivegrids and all this other stuff.
It's all tools and frameworks,tools and frameworks, tools and
frameworks.
And I feel like, look— you'reyou're cutting out a massive

(18:07):
part of...
of the empathetic part of designthat creates positive user
experience.
You can't NOT have humanintervention because of what you
just said.

Peter Kaizer (18:20):
Yep.

Joe Natoli (18:20):
A machine does not experience emotion.

Peter Kaizer (18:20):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (18:20):
I mean, it doesn't.
Maybe it will in the future, whoknows.
But this, to me, I am reallyagainst, I suppose, this
increasing reliance— and thissort of superhero fetish— about
technology doing its own work.
I just...
I think it runs counter toeverything that we do.

Peter Kaizer (18:47):
I completely agree with you.
I mean, look, I started writingHTML in the late 90s and I've
never used, you know, a WYSIWYGeditor.
And you know, I'm I'm I'm acoder— I'm also a designer and
I'm a coder— I'm one of thosepeople that can do a lot of
things because I've had to andI've been doing it a long time.

(19:10):
And I love, I mean frameworkshave a purpose, tools and and
front and tooling has a purpose.
I kind of bundle a lot of thatstuff.
And there is, you're absolutelyright, there is an oversized
obsession with that stuff rightnow.
I bundle that stuff into sortof, you know, Design Ops.

(19:31):
There needs to be good,well-thought-out design
operations, just the same waythere needs to be good well
thought out Dev Ops— developeroperations— for a product team
that's producing a product.
You have to have it, but there'ssomething very important that
has to come before that and thatis thinking about, you know,

(19:53):
it's a human being that's goingto use this product.
And one of my big sort ofbugaboos— you know, things that
just drive me crazy— is so wehave these great publishing
platforms, WordPress, Drupal,you name it, you know content

(20:15):
management flavor of choice.
Nobody pays attention to whatthe user experience of the poor
soul whose job it is is to keepthat Web site up to date with
current content.

Joe Natoli (20:25):
Thank you.
THANK YOU!

Peter Kaizer (20:27):
Nobody pays attention to that! Nobody pays
attention to it.
It's insane.

Joe Natoli (20:33):
If I had a nickel for every time someone said to
me,"oh, it's just an admin."

Peter Kaizer (20:37):
Yes, it's such—

Joe Natoli (20:38):
I would be a rich man.

Peter Kaizer (20:40):
That's craziness.

Joe Natoli (20:44):
A human being has to USE that part!

Peter Kaizer (20:47):
Right!

Joe Natoli (20:47):
No one cares! You just said it.
No one gives a shit about howhard it is to use the tool!

Peter Kaizer (20:52):
Nobody cares.
Yup.
And it's, you know look, I'vedone enough, you know, custom
Drupal development, customWordPress development.
It's super easy; it's justlaziness.

Joe Natoli (21:07):
Exactly.

Peter Kaizer (21:08):
It's not considered sexy.
You know,"Oh, there's no returnon investment on internal
administrative user experience."That's such B.S.

Joe Natoli (21:17):
I agree.
Couldn't agree more.

Peter Kaizer (21:20):
I mean, we build, you know, the firm I work for
builds some great products,really big products and of
course, the federal governmentright now loves Drupal— which I
think is a pain in the ass.
I mean I think it is.

Joe Natoli (21:36):
It is.

Peter Kaizer (21:37):
It's very powerful...
And 90 percent of the federalgovernment websites that are
done with Drupal could be donewith Wordpress for half, half
the amount of money.

Joe Natoli (21:47):
Oh right, but that scares them.

Peter Kaizer (21:49):
Yeah

Joe Natoli (21:50):
That SCARES them.

Peter Kaizer (21:51):
Although interestingly enough, you know
who uses WordPress a lot in thefederal government?
The State Department.

Joe Natoli (21:58):
Are you kidding?

Peter Kaizer (21:59):
No.
I worked on a project for themthere.
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (22:02):
That's funny.
The world is an interestingplace...

Peter Kaizer (22:09):
So yeah, anyway, nobody...
You know, people don't payattention to it.
I don't know why...
It's like even when you knowsort of the usability, they're
all stuck on, you know, what'sthe end user being presented
with?
That's you know nobody is sayingthat that shouldn't, that the
user experience shouldn't begreat.

Joe Natoli (22:30):
Right.

Peter Kaizer (22:30):
But if you're...
If the problem you're trying tosolve— and this gets sort of,
this is me with my developer haton— I was like,"what's the
problem you're trying to solve?""Oh, we're trying to build a
publishing platform where we caneasily publish and disseminate
information about our,, you knowour government agency to the

(22:51):
citizenry of the United States."

Joe Natoli (22:52):
Right.

Peter Kaizer (22:53):
Well why wouldn't you want an administrative
interface that made it easy foryour federal employees to
publish that information rightnow?

Joe Natoli (23:03):
Exactly right, and that's the right question...
That's always the rightquestion.
Yeah I have never once— well Ishouldn't say never once because
in younger...
when I was younger man in myearly career I certainly did a
lot of sort of subservientprojects where it's like"you
want this?
Okay great.
That's what we're going to do."

Peter Kaizer (23:20):
Right.

Joe Natoli (23:20):
But the majority of my career is companies coming to
me and saying we want to do thisand we have this problem.
And my sort of first order ofbusiness is,"OK well, what's
really going on here?" And a lotof times you find out, with
internal systems in particular—and I spend a lot of time,
right, with with enterpriseorganizations and government

(23:43):
work— what you find out is thatthe real issue isn't so much end
user experience.
The real issue, the things thatare...
that are really sticking intheir throats is the fact that
they're bleeding time and money.

Peter Kaizer (23:55):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (23:55):
All over the place.

Peter Kaizer (23:56):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (23:56):
And nine times out of ten, it's always because— as
you just said— the attentionpaid to the internal
administrative parts of whateverthey use to to do their jobs and
deliver their services is sorelylacking.
And so I say,"well you have tofix this problem first because
this other stuff is symptomaticof this problem,"

Peter Kaizer (24:18):
Right.

Joe Natoli (24:18):
You can't execute because your tool is garbage.

Peter Kaizer (24:18):
Right.

Joe Natoli (24:18):
You know, I mean you have to fix that first.
And plenty of organizations thatI've worked with have seen
massive gains from doing verysmall things internally.

Peter Kaizer (24:18):
Yeah, yeah.

Joe Natoli (24:18):
So it sounds like you and I have had some similar
experiences.

Peter Kaizer (24:38):
Yeah yeah.
No I agree.
I mean you know and there'sstill a vast number of federal
government— public facingfederal government websites—
that are powered with reallyantiquated legacy content
management systems.
You know, things likePercussion, TeamSite, you know,

(25:02):
these huge job platforms thatcost millions of dollars and
just don't work very well.

Joe Natoli (25:09):
Yep.

Peter Kaizer (25:11):
And I also think there's, particularly in the
government space, there's toomany cooks in the kitchen in
terms of the procurementprocess.
The decision making process.
And you know, it is what it is;I'm not sure it'll ever get
streamlined.

Joe Natoli (25:29):
Probably not.

Peter Kaizer (25:30):
I think I think the British government has done
a much better job with theirpublic- facing government sites.

Joe Natoli (25:38):
Yeah, they've taken quantum leaps forward, from what
I can see.
I mean if you just look at—

Peter Kaizer (25:43):
Yeah, gov dot uk it is great.

Joe Natoli (25:47):
It's impressive as hell.

Peter Kaizer (25:48):
Yeah, it really is.
And you know and I will say thatafter the debacle of
healthcare.gov in 2013, whenthey first tried to launch it—
and I actually worked on thatsite on the team that worked for
a year.
I worked on that site after itwas fixed.
Yeah, I was working for asmaller government contractor at

(26:11):
the time that was part of theteam that fixed it basically...
And I didn't come on to thatproject until, I guess it was
early 2016 and I worked on itfor a little over a year.
And it was fascinating.
It was really reallyinteresting.
You know, in terms of the techstack, I mean—

Joe Natoli (26:30):
I'm sure.

Peter Kaizer (26:32):
Healthcare.gov doesn't actually have a content
management system.

Joe Natoli (26:34):
No kidding.

Peter Kaizer (26:36):
No.

Joe Natoli (26:37):
What does it run on?
What is it?

Peter Kaizer (26:38):
It's, uh, it's— well you've heard of, you know
what a static site generator is.

Joe Natoli (26:44):
Oh yeah.

Peter Kaizer (26:44):
And so you've heard of Jekyll?

Joe Natoli (26:46):
Yeah.

Peter Kaizer (26:47):
It's Jekyll.
It's the world's biggest Jekyllsite.

Joe Natoli (26:50):
Wow, that's incredible.

Peter Kaizer (26:51):
And all the content is managed in GitHub
repos.

Joe Natoli (26:55):
WOW.

Peter Kaizer (26:55):
And then pushed out to Akamai.

Joe Natoli (26:58):
Wow.

Peter Kaizer (26:58):
Yeah.
It's, I mean it's lightningfast, because it's not a lot of
overhead.
And then there's a bunch ofjavascript framework
applications that are built intoit.
So there's some Angular.
There's a couple of Angularapplications, there's some React
applications and you know...

Joe Natoli (27:16):
You still, though...
I mean, that to me says thatthere are a lot of incredible
people doing a lot of work.

Peter Kaizer (27:16):
Yeah.
Oh yeah.

Joe Natoli (27:16):
Every single minute of every single hour of every
single day.

Peter Kaizer (27:30):
Yeah yeah yeah yeah.
No for sure.

Joe Natoli (27:33):
Pretty incredible.

Peter Kaizer (27:34):
Yeah.
So I mean there's, you knowyou've got that and I think...
So after after that debacle in2013, the Obama administration
formed the U.S.
Digital Service.
You know, trying to take a pagefrom what the Brits did.
And that still exists and it'sactually falls within the

(27:55):
Executive branch of the Federalgovernment.
And you know.
There's some great people there.
You have internal sort ofagencies like 18F which is, you
know, sort of an internaldigital agency that lives within
GSA and they do great work andthings like the U.S.
web design standards.

(28:15):
Which is a framework of frontend components and stuff, a
library.
That's a step in the rightdirection.
I actually, before I startedworking on the project I'm
currently working on, I was thelead designer, lead designing
Medicaid.gov based on the US webdesign standards.

(28:38):
So we took their sort of, theirbranding.
And we moved that over into afront end design that was based
on the US web design standards.

Joe Natoli (28:47):
So it sounds like— and this is very heartening to
hear, by the way— but it soundslike those entities have
survived, so far, this currentadministration.

Peter Kaizer (29:00):
Yes.
Yeah, you know, the fact— I meanagain without sort of getting
sort of you know rolling in themud of our current political
morass...

Joe Natoli (29:11):
I'm trying not to, but that was one of my biggest
concerns, OK?
I felt like a lot of strideswere made.

Peter Kaizer (29:16):
And those strides those are still in place,
because the segment of theFederal workforce that actually
makes those decisions are notpolitical appointees.
I mean, they're so far down thefood chain that I don't think it
really affects them.
I mean, you know, this currentadministration saying it's going

(29:38):
to slash funding and and slashfederal jobs.
Well, all that means iscompanies like the one I work
for which is one of the, youknow, I now work for a huge
contractor.
There's just more...the work'sgot to get done.
But there still is a mindset Ithink within know federal

(30:01):
digital platforms.
That modernization train isstill running.
So that's good.

Joe Natoli (30:09):
That's good.

Peter Kaizer (30:09):
Yeah.
No, I think it is.

Joe Natoli (30:11):
Yeah, you know, you just want to see that you want
to see that continue.
So that really is, I've got totell you, that's a first good
news I've had quite a while...

Peter Kaizer (30:23):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (30:23):
...where the federal government is concerned so
that's that's really, reallyawesome to hear.

Peter Kaizer (30:27):
Yeah, I mean and you have places like, currently
I'm working down at the U.S.
Postal Service on redesigningsome of the applications that
live within USPS.com.

Joe Natoli (30:40):
Yeah.
Seems like there's a lot ofprogress there.

Peter Kaizer (30:43):
Yeah you know there is, although I mean some
of the development practicesstill need modernizing in terms
of the DevOps of it and stufflike that.
But yeah there is definitelythere's definitely a push to
modernize and you're starting tosee things like design systems

(31:03):
come into play and true DevOpsand cloud-based you know AWSs
used extensively within Federalwebsites, because...it's
Fed-ramped so they have theirown sort of secure corner of of
Amazon Web Services where Websites can be hosted.

(31:24):
So you're starting to see that,and you see, you have companies
like Booz Allen— who I work for—like you know, like some of the
smaller ones that actually cameout of the rescue of
healthcare.gov Of like Nava andAd Hoc.
You know, you have staffers atthose smaller companies that
used to work in Silicon Valleyand they know how to do stuff
the right way.

(31:44):
I mean, I think the guy who is acurrent administrator of the
U.S.
Digital Service is Matt Cutts,who was a longtime Google guy.
He was one of the earlyengineers at Google and the guy
who, the original guy who wasthe administrator, Mikey...
I can't remember his lastname...

(32:07):
Left.
His position was a politicalappointment.
And when the Obamaadministration went out, you
know, his appointment was done.
So they brought, Matt Cutts camein as an interim to fill that.
And I think he's still thereactually.
So so there's good stuff.
I mean there is good stuff goingon.

Joe Natoli (32:24):
Yeah, it sounds that way.

Peter Kaizer (32:25):
Yeah.
It's something you havecompanies like mine and others
you know that are really tryingto push modern user experience
and development and designpractices.
Now the the part of the problem,ultimately, with...
It's really comes down to sortof the decision making process.
There's just still within theFederal digital space, there are

(32:45):
so many hoops...

Joe Natoli (32:48):
Oh yeah...

Peter Kaizer (32:48):
...that you have to jump through and so many, so
many cooks and so many hands inthat pot.

Joe Natoli (32:56):
Believe me, I do some government work every year,
this year included, and that'sexactly right.
There are so many levels and somany layers and so many
people...

Peter Kaizer (33:10):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (33:10):
And in every...
what I've seen, Ok, is that atevery every one of those levels,

there are sort of two camps: there are people who are (33:15):
undefined
fighting like hell to makethings better.

Peter Kaizer (33:19):
Yes.

Joe Natoli (33:20):
They care an awful lot about how this runs
internally, they care an awfullot about how it affects the
human beings on the receivingend...
Even, you know, inside all thesedifferent branches and
departments and agencies withinthe government.
And then on the other side, youhave people who sort of have
their heads down and are taskedwith doing a lot of other

(33:43):
things, where some of the stuffis kind of in their way, right?
So they see it as as disposable,they see it as"well, we'll deal
with it later."

Peter Kaizer (33:51):
Right.

Joe Natoli (33:51):
I can't say that I've encountered anybody who is
sort of, maliciously, you know,thinks it's a waste of time.
I just feel like there's so manypressing concerns and all these
people and they all haveresponsibility.
Like you said, there are a lotof cooks in the kitchen.

Peter Kaizer (34:05):
Yeah, yeah.

Joe Natoli (34:06):
I think there are so many competing agendas and
responsibilities.
I think it's damn difficult.

Peter Kaizer (34:11):
Oh yeah, yeah! I think it's...
I think it's very hard.
And I think we, you know, we'vecome a long way in terms of the
Federal space.
I mean, my job is...
Well for 15 years I worked for afaith based non-profit.
It was actually, I worked forthe Catholic Church.
I was I was a professionalCatholic.

(34:32):
Working for the mosthierarchical organization on the
planet prepared me very well tobasically be a contractor to the
second most hierarchicalorganization, the US federal
government.

Joe Natoli (34:47):
You're upgrading.

Peter Kaizer (34:51):
Yeah.
It is fascinating.
What's going on.
And I think you know like theIRS.
We were involved, the firm Iworked for was involved, in
really modernizing a lot of theIRS public-facing website stuff.
They finally migrated from, Ithink it was Percussion to
Drupal, and you know they theyreally did a true sort of user

(35:16):
experience analysis.
And it's way, way better than itwas.

Joe Natoli (35:21):
Yeah the Web site is certainly better.
And I say that as a smallbusiness owner myself, because
there are other issues of coursewithin the IRS in terms of...you
know, It's where informationgoes to die.

Peter Kaizer (35:33):
Right.

Joe Natoli (35:34):
In a lot of cases, but that has nothing to do with
the website.
What I do see in the publicfacing part and having to
research things and having toaccess things, is that it's
gotten infinitely better.
Leaps and bounds.

Peter Kaizer (35:45):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (35:45):
Because otherwise, for instance, I had an ongoing
problem for the last five years,OK, where we, we filed specific
forms related to our business.
Sent it certified mail fivetimes with a letter.
Okay?
And a mountain of paper and said"I've sent this to you five
times now.
You keep telling me you don'thave it.

(36:06):
I know you have it.
I don't know where it went afterthis person signed for it, but
you have it." It took five yearsto get that taken care of.
And the lynchpin in the lastyear that I went through this
was really the increase ininformation on the website—
because I was able to find veryspecific information to sort of
circumvent some of thesedepartments I was dealing with.

(36:28):
And were it not for that, thiswould still be going on.
I know it would be.

Peter Kaizer (36:33):
Well I'm glad to hear that.
Yeah I think that's the goodnews.
You know there are, there is asort of let's modernize this,
let's make it better.
And so I mean.
It's funny it's almost like youknow you think about Federal
websites and you just think"oh,bad design, bad UX," you know,

(36:55):
nothing good about it.
So you're starting, sort of...
the expectations are pretty low.
I actually think, you know, ifyou were to chart the progress
it's a quantum leap, becauseeverybody's expectations had
been so low for so long.
So that's good.
And I think it's, you know, it'simportant.

(37:16):
And there's a lot of stuff westill don't see that's, you
know, internal systems and stufflike that as well which are very
important.
I mean the Postal Service is aninteresting sort of user
experience case study in so muchas you know USPS.com is actually
something like a billion dollara year e-commerce site.

(37:39):
I mean, you know it's very verywidely used.
Interestingly enough, my firstfFederal project a little over
four years ago was an internalIntranet IA project at postal.
When I first got hired, it gothired and the user base...
So this was the part of the U.S.

(38:00):
postal service's Intranet, whatthey call Blue, you know, Postal
Blue, which is powered by thisvery, very old legacy enterprise
software platform which is abeast.
But whatever.
And it was to reorganize, youknow, the content, just within

(38:20):
the Human Resources section ofthat.
So the user base wasmanagement-level Postal
employees.
The user base for this Intranet—not public-facing— was bigger
than many public-facingwebsites.
It was 250,000 managementemployees at the Postal Service.

Joe Natoli (38:42):
WOW.
Huge.

Peter Kaizer (38:43):
Yeah.
I mean the Postal Service hassomething like six or seven
hundred thousand employees.
That's just usps.com.

Joe Natoli (38:48):
Yeah, right.
Right right.

Peter Kaizer (38:48):
Just the US Postal service.
It's crazy.

Joe Natoli (38:48):
Talk about a challenge.

Peter Kaizer (38:48):
Yeah yeah.
So you know the scale— andthat's the thing I think a lot
of people just don't know, thescale.
I mean, I remember I was doingsome work after that when I went
to HHS for a while.
I actually worked with AnneDougherty, who you had on, we
used to work together.

Joe Natoli (38:48):
Wow, that's really cool!

Peter Kaizer (38:48):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
HHS, so the Secretary of HHS, Ithink oversees something like 70
or 80000 federal employees.
That's just HHS.

Joe Natoli (38:48):
Massive.

Peter Kaizer (38:48):
Yeah.
So the scale that's the...
I mean the point is is that whenyou get to organizations that
have that kind of scale, there'sunique challenges that go way
beyond what, you know, mostproduct designers or developers
are having to deal with.

Joe Natoli (39:49):
Absolutely.
It's a whole different universe.
I mean, on every level.,

Peter Kaizer (39:51):
Yup.

Joe Natoli (39:52):
On every level.
You know the...
Jeez, I mean, the technicaldevelopment challenges alone—
from front end to mid tier stuffto back end— are enough, in and
of themselves...
to totally absorb every secondof your life.

Peter Kaizer (40:08):
Yeah.
In any given project, you mighthave three or four different
contractors working onsomething.
You know, it's it's interestingand unique.
But if somebody could go in— andI mean, this might take like the
rest of time to do this— theprocess map what happens.

Joe Natoli (40:28):
Yeah.
Because at any given time,you're only looking at a slice
of it.

Peter Kaizer (40:32):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (40:32):
You know, to get your head and your arms around
this higher part, is just...
When I when I've done, you know,whiteboard process work— which
is always part of my engagementswith government agencies in
particular— it's an amazingexercise because the board is
never big enough.

Peter Kaizer (40:51):
Yup.
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (40:52):
You know, when you start down one path and you
start trying to diagram allthese offshoots, of people and
process and paper andinformation and everything else,
and it just goes off the rails,you know.
30 minutes in.
You're like"WOW, OK...
we need a couple of days, Ithink, to do this.
And you're only talking about asmall department, right.

Peter Kaizer (41:10):
Right.
Yeah.
It's interesting.
There's other places that havesimilar challenges.
I mean, I think, you know, Ispent 15 years in a very large
international humanitarian aidorganization that was a global
organization.
CRS had similar challenges,being of the scale it was.

(41:31):
The other place that I think ispretty, you know, has big
challenges, is Higher Ed.
I don't know if you've done workfor Higher Ed.

Joe Natoli (41:41):
I have.

Peter Kaizer (41:42):
That's very unique there, because, so I've spent
some time out at the Universityof Notre Dame in South Bend.
A day there visiting with theirinternal web team and they had a
really good internalcommunications department.
The reason I was out there was—this when I was still at

(42:05):
Catholic Relief Services— ourincoming CEO and President had
been a Dean at the businessschool there.
And so, you know, I just thoughtlet me go out and talk to these
guys.
I knew about them.
There were some developers anddesigners who I had followed on
Twitter and stuff that I knewabout.
So I went there to talk to them.

This will blow your mind: University of Notre Dame, by (42:24):
undefined
itself, has 350 standalonewebsites.

Joe Natoli (42:31):
Wow.
350.

Peter Kaizer (42:34):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (42:36):
That's...
And in a way, I'm going to tellyou what.
It's shocking number to hear outloud...

Peter Kaizer (42:40):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (42:41):
...but at the same time my son is going to
University of Maryland hereshortly.
At the end of this year.
And of course, we've beendealing with their web sites.

Peter Kaizer (42:53):
Yep, yep.

Joe Natoli (42:53):
It blows my mind, the level of disconnect.
And the number of sites thatwe've had to use to do things
that you would think...
are logically connected...
but they aren't.

Peter Kaizer (43:06):
Yeah.
Yep yep.
No, I did some, I've done somefreelance work for the
University of Maryland for thePerforming Arts Department years
ago.
And yeah, no, it's the samething.
And so from a UX and sort ofdesign perspective, they really
need to have design systems.
They were actually the firsttype of organization that I

(43:29):
started seeing, you know, sortof the precursors of true design
systems being put into place.
And design systems are a hugeinterest of mine, and they're,
you know, they're a hot thingright now.
But you're starting, you know,you're starting to see that.
Media organizations, the BBCactually published probably the

(43:50):
very first early design systemin the form of their global
experience language, that theypublished back in...
I think it was 2006.
And so that, you know that stuffto me is...
that's where frameworks arereally important.

Joe Natoli (44:05):
I agree.
Totally agree.

Peter Kaizer (44:06):
Because they're...they're not at that
sort of level where they'regenerating the code base or
anything like that, or evendefining the use of the UI
elements.
They're the encapsulation ofeverything that's needed for

(44:27):
your digital product or yourdigital product universe for
your organization.

Joe Natoli (44:33):
Yeah, but from an organizational standpoint, see
this is one of those areas—Higher Ed in particular, one of
those industries, if you will—where I think there are some
significant organizationalchallenges that have to be
overcome first in terms of howthey procure and
implement...technology.

(44:55):
I see a lot of handicaps, I'llput it to you that way.
In the things that they are sortof forced to use.

Peter Kaizer (45:01):
Yeah, yeah.

Joe Natoli (45:02):
Because the people making those decisions are
removed from technology.
Yes well you have that.
I mean that same thing happensin the Federal government.
Of course it does.

Peter Kaizer (45:12):
And it happens in nonprofits as well.

Joe Natoli (45:13):
So I guess my question that I'm getting to,
for you particular..
What do you do about that?
How do you change it?
I mean, I agree with the powerof frameworks and the fact that
the solution is sort of obvious,right.

Peter Kaizer (45:30):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (45:30):
How do they get there?

Peter Kaizer (45:32):
Well that's where I think really trying to hone in
on asking the question,"what'sthe problem you're trying to
solve?" Because a lot of timesan organization— let's keep it
sort of you know, type oforganization-agnostic— might
say,"I need more subscribers Ineed you know, blah blah blah, I

(45:52):
need this." Well, maybe what youneed is a good well thought out
email marketing program.
You don't necessarily need awhole new content management
system.

Joe Natoli (46:02):
Right.
Yeah, agreed.

Peter Kaizer (46:02):
Maybe you need a good welcome series, if you're a
nonprofit, maybe you need a goodwelcome series of emails that,
you know, sort of brings a aninterested person along the
journey from interested in thework the organization is doing,
to maybe being an advocate forthe organization and then maybe

(46:23):
being a donor to theorganization and then maybe
being a legacy donor.
I mean, this was a challenge wehad at CRS was how do we manage
that we had lots of differenttypes of end users who were
coming to our website andsupporting our organization?
And so colleges and universitiesare no different.
What's the problem you're tryingto solve?

Joe Natoli (46:43):
I agree with that.
I think the unfortunate reality,and I've experienced this in
organizations, is that the painhas to be clear.

Peter Kaizer (46:52):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (46:52):
You know, the pain that they're experiencing as a
result of those things has to bevery clear and very felt, in
order for somebody to say"OK, Iknow we've mandated using this
product, this Higher Ed productin the past." I'm not going to
name any names.
"But it is now starting to costus a great deal of time and

(47:14):
money and it's increasing thelevel of support we have to give
to students.
Twentyfold.
And OK, maybe now it's time toconsider something else." In my
experience, that process takes along time before the folks with
the purse strings start feelingthat pain.

(47:37):
Before they throw up their handsand say"OK, I know we've always
done it this way with thisproduct.
Maybe it's time for somethingelse."

Peter Kaizer (47:43):
Yeah and I mean, if you're if you're talking
about products like learningmanagement systems..

Joe Natoli (47:47):
I am.

Peter Kaizer (47:48):
Then you know, that's, that really gets
complicated.
Because you know there'sbasically one big player in that
arena

Joe Natoli (47:57):
Yep, and it's terrible.

Peter Kaizer (47:58):
And it's not good.

Joe Natoli (47:59):
It's terrible.
I mean, the level of ofsloppiness in that product blows
my mind.
Absolutely blows my mind.

Peter Kaizer (48:09):
I actually had a friend and former colleague who
worked with me about three yearsago in the Federal space, who
left and went to work for thiscompany.
And she said"Oh, you wouldn'tbelieve the dysfunction here

Joe Natoli (48:25):
And you're like,"Oh, I bet I would!"

Peter Kaizer (48:30):
Yeah yeah yeah yeah.
So I mean yeah.
You know with that particularlearning management platform—
although there are some that areworse.

Joe Natoli (48:40):
Really?

Peter Kaizer (48:41):
Believe it or not.
Yeah I taught at UB for a while.

Joe Natoli (48:45):
Same here.

Peter Kaizer (48:47):
And whatever they use is worse than the big
player, or whatever they wereusing at the time.
I refused.
I put all my course work, Ibuilt WordPress sites for the
courses I taught and put all mycoursework there.

Joe Natoli (49:05):
Yep yep.
I think I was using, um....
Oh my god I can't remember.
Adobe's product for virtual...

Peter Kaizer (49:14):
Oh, yeah yeah yeah yeah!

Joe Natoli (49:16):
Virtual classrooms.
That was great.
And I did the same thing youdid.
I was posting stuff in a privatearea of my own WordPress site.

Peter Kaizer (49:23):
Yeah, yeah.

Joe Natoli (49:24):
And I wasn't using the sanctioned products.

Peter Kaizer (49:27):
Right.
What was it, Adobe Connect Ithink it was?

Joe Natoli (49:31):
Yeah, that's what it was.

Peter Kaizer (49:34):
I mean.
I mean look, Adobe has got itsown problems.

Joe Natoli (49:37):
Of course.
Well, they're a big fish.

Peter Kaizer (49:39):
They're a big fish.
They own the market, althoughthey're getting a run for their
money right now in terms ofdesign software and design
tools, from Sketch.

Joe Natoli (49:48):
Yeah and what they're, what they're
experiencing is the same thing—and you probably remember this
having done this work for awhile— they're experiencing the
same thing that Quarkexperienced.

Peter Kaizer (49:58):
Oh yeah.

Joe Natoli (49:59):
When InDesign first came out, OK, when Adobe
InDesign came out, Quarkessentially said,"nope, you're
going to pay us eight hundreddollars for the software and to
upgrade in any way shape orform, it's another eight hundred
dollars.
And we kind of don't care,right, about these features that
users have been screaming aboutfor a solid 10 years." I
remember Quark reps coming totalk to us where I worked.

Peter Kaizer (50:22):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (50:22):
And their response was basically,"Well, yeah, you
can have that maybe, if you payTHIS." And so InDesign came
along and said Hey, 99 bucks ifyou have a Quark license, it's
yours.
And Adobe BURIED them.

Peter Kaizer (50:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (50:38):
Quickly.
And I think finally the samething is starting to happen to
them.
It's like I said a minute agoabout pain OK?
They have to really feel itbefore they start to say"you
know what?
We've gotten a little lazyhere."

Peter Kaizer (50:50):
Yep.
You know Sketch is 99 bucks.

Joe Natoli (50:53):
Exactly.

Peter Kaizer (50:53):
And it's great.
It's a wonderful program.
I spend most of my time my dayusing Sketch.
Not that, you know, the tooldoesn't make you a good
designer.

Joe Natoli (51:04):
Of course not.

Peter Kaizer (51:05):
But you know, there are sort of things within
that design software toolingthat can make it easier to do
things.
I mean, I think in some ways oneof my other sort of great
advantages is I spent a lot oftime, you know, creating objects
as a younger person and in thefirst half of my working life.

(51:25):
So essentially designing andcreating user experience with
actual physical objects.
The other thing is, I don't comeout of a print design
background.
I'm not dragging any of thatbaggage with me.

Joe Natoli (51:38):
Which is a good thing.

Peter Kaizer (51:40):
Which is a good thing.
And I think it makes a hugedifference, particularly on the,
you know, the interface designside.
Because there are constraintsthat you have to deal with,
design constraints.
Constraints are a good thing.

Joe Natoli (51:55):
I totally agree.
And I think print designers,unfortunately...
Because I was one, OK, I startedout in print design, there was
no Internet, right.
But I will tell you that the wayI was taught design is very very
very, hundred thousand percentdifferent than the way most
print designers learn design.

(52:16):
And I think that's unfortunate,because they have been
shortchanged.

Peter Kaizer (52:19):
Yep.
Yep.

Joe Natoli (52:20):
By their educations.
I really firmly believe that.
Because I was able to make thetransition to digital with no
problem; the principles wereexactly the same.
The things that I was taught topay attention to were exactly
the same.

Peter Kaizer (52:33):
Right.

Joe Natoli (52:33):
And if you go back to pure design principles,
that's what you'll find.
I think a lot of these folksunfortunately have been given
a...
this is just my opinion, OK?
I really feel like they've givenbeen given a bad hand.
And that baggage that you'retalking about is the result of
that.

Peter Kaizer (52:51):
Yeah.
No, I agree.
I agree.
I mean, you know, I basicallycame from this sort of had a
similar experience from youwithout having been a print
designer because—

Joe Natoli (53:01):
Right, but you learned...
You learned the same principlesthough.

Peter Kaizer (53:04):
Exactly.

Joe Natoli (53:04):
You learned the same principles in working with your
hands that you're applying now.

Peter Kaizer (53:08):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And you know, talking aboutdesign education...
So you know who Mike Monteirois.

Joe Natoli (53:15):
Sure.

Peter Kaizer (53:15):
So did you ever.
Did you read that Medium piecethat he published earlier this
year, called"Design's LostGeneration?"

Joe Natoli (53:24):
I may have.
I read his stuff every once in awhile when I have free...
Free minutes and there's so muchof it, I don't even recognize it
by the titles anymore.

Peter Kaizer (53:34):
It's a great piece and I actually heard him read it
on a podcast I was listening to.
What it was talking about wasethics in Design, which I think
is another super, superimportant thing you know as
we're sort of reaching thispoint in the early part of the
21st century where, you know,we're now making these products

(53:57):
and it's like,"OK should we bedoing this?"

Joe Natoli (54:02):
It's the great power, great responsibility kind
of thing.
I agree.

Peter Kaizer (54:05):
And that stuff is important I think.
I think younger designers arestarting to recognize that.

Joe Natoli (54:11):
I think as we talk about it more, I think it
changes.
You know people in positions ofinfluence, like Mike.
I spent some time with with AlanCooper last year and this was...

Peter Kaizer (54:24):
He's a fascinating guy.

Joe Natoli (54:25):
Yeah.
One of the things that he talkedabout incessantly, OK, in the
conversations that we all had asa group— and in his his talk at
this conference I was at— wasall about responsibility and
stewardship and that is histhing right now and he's pushing
it as hard as he possibly can.
And I think it's great.
Mike is doing the exact samething.

(54:47):
Erika Hall is doing the exactsame thing.
I just listened to a podcastwith her, that...
Man, I wanted to stand up andcheer.
You know, she kept saying wehave to stop glorifying these
things in a way that turns themaway from, from humanity.

Peter Kaizer (55:06):
Oh yeah.
I think I think I listened tothat, it was that she was on
Presentable with Jeffrey Veen.

Joe Natoli (55:12):
Yes.

Peter Kaizer (55:12):
Yeah.
Who's great.
There are voices out theretalking about it and talking
about, you know, theresponsibility and pushing
companies, you know, like Adobeand and to really think about
this stuff that's about people.

Joe Natoli (55:28):
I mean, at the end of the day, it all comes back to
human beings.
I said this in an interview Ijust did earlier this week.

And I'm going to say it again (55:37):
I really feel like,, Peter at this
point in my career,I feel likeeverything I do, I want it to be
an antidote to bullshit.
Because I just feel like a lotof the human aspects of what we
do are being lost in theconversation.
And I want to bring it backthere.

Peter Kaizer (55:56):
Yes.
Well it just gets back to yourpoint about you know frameworks
and sort of soft technologydoing the work that humans
should be doing.
Ninety nine point nine percentof the problems we're trying to
solve are not technologyproblems.

Joe Natoli (56:14):
Agreed.

Peter Kaizer (56:14):
They're people problems.

Joe Natoli (56:15):
Agreed.

Peter Kaizer (56:16):
They're human problems.
You know Silicon Valley is veryculpable in this.
They want to disrupt everythingwith, you know the latest shiny
robotic whatever.

Joe Natoli (56:27):
Yeah, right.

Peter Kaizer (56:28):
Technology is great.
And technology is terrible atthe same time.

Joe Natoli (56:35):
Yeah.
I think we're learning some veryhard lessons right now.

Peter Kaizer (56:38):
We are.
And so it's like, you know,"howis this thing, this widget, this
whatever that I am working ongoing to make your life better?
Or easier?
Or give you five more minutes ofyour time back so you can read
your son or daughter a story?"

Joe Natoli (56:58):
Right.
Right.
Or...the converse of that,"is itgoing to harm you in some way?"

Peter Kaizer (57:05):
Yeah.
Is it going to expose somethingabout you that you don't want
exposed or shouldn't be exposed?

Joe Natoli (57:12):
Right.
I mean you mentioned Mike OK,and I mentioned Alan, both of
those folks have essentially, invery loud voices, said"look, if
you work on these projects andyou knowingly do this work, you
are in fact responsible." And Iagree with that.
I absolutely agree with that.
I have turned down plenty ofthings in my career that I

(57:33):
didn't feel comfortable with.
And I get that that's a harddecision to make.
I get that there is privilegethat, in some cases, where you
have the luxury of saying no.
But I will also say at the sametime that one of the most
important lessons I ever learned— in the slowly approaching
three decades of doing this— isto say NO to things that cause

(57:57):
that tight feeling in yourchest.

Peter Kaizer (58:00):
Yeah.
Yup.

Joe Natoli (58:00):
Someone tried to teach me that at a younger age
and I wasn't ready to hear it.

Peter Kaizer (58:05):
Yup.

Joe Natoli (58:05):
But it turns out to be one of the most valuable
things anyone ever taught me.

Peter Kaizer (58:10):
Yeah!

Joe Natoli (58:11):
It matters.
Because the implications ofdoing the work anyway are far
reaching.
And the way it weighs on yourheart and your soul are far
reaching as well.

Peter Kaizer (58:21):
Yeah.
No.
I mean you now have companieslike Google where, you know
engineers at Google are saying"Oh, our AI I was used for
weapons.
I don't think I want to beworking on that."

Joe Natoli (58:33):
Right.
You know the Facebook thing,right?
"Move fast and break things."OK, well, it certainly broke
some things.

Peter Kaizer (58:40):
Right.
Right.

Joe Natoli (58:40):
And some people along the way.
And it's still happening.

Peter Kaizer (58:42):
Yeah no.
I completely agree.

Joe Natoli (58:45):
And I know it's not as simple as saying,"well, we'll
just say no." I mean, nothing inlife is that black and white, or
that easy.
I get it.

Peter Kaizer (58:52):
No, no.
No.

Joe Natoli (58:53):
But that power really does start with the
people in the lower trenches,who feel like they don't have
any power.
They have more than...
They have more than they think.

Peter Kaizer (59:04):
Yep.
Now it's interesting.
I would be curious to see whereit goes as digital products worm
their way into, you know, placeswe never thought they would be.
I mean, I drive an all electriccar now.
I finally bit the bullet madethe decision.
I'm not buying another internalcombustion engine car.

Joe Natoli (59:22):
Cool.

Peter Kaizer (59:23):
I approached acquiring that vehicle the same
way I approach acquiring a newmobile phone: It was just
another gadget I was going tolease.
And it's just like a big pieceof technology.
It's not a Tesla, you know, it'sa Chevy Bolt.
But it gets gets the same rangesup as a Tesla in terms of a full

(59:44):
on a full charge.
And you know, the display andeverything and, you know, it's
like pretty soon we're going tobe designing interfaces for the
inside door panel of yourautomobile.

Joe Natoli (59:53):
It's coming.
That day is coming.

Peter Kaizer (59:54):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (59:57):
Well we're at the point where I get to ask you
some difficult questions.

Peter Kaizer (01:00:03):
OK.

Joe Natoli (01:00:04):
Or at least interesting questions, they
don't have to be difficult Iguess.

Peter Kaizer (01:00:07):
Well, I'm ready.

Joe Natoli (01:00:08):
What is what is something that we don't know
about you?
What is something that mostpeople don't know about you, but
that they probably should?

Peter Kaizer (01:00:15):
Well, I mean, we already talked about my career
as an artist and as a studioPotter.
Let's see.
tough question.

Joe Natoli (01:00:24):
Difficult, right?

Peter Kaizer (01:00:26):
Yeah, it's a good question.

Joe Natoli (01:00:28):
Well let's let's phrase it a different way.
What's a hidden talent that youhave that not many people know
about?

Peter Kaizer (01:00:33):
Well I am a really good cook.

Joe Natoli (01:00:38):
There you go!

Peter Kaizer (01:00:38):
And I've been making delicious food for as
long as I've been making thingswith my hands.
For as long as I've beendefining user experience in some
way or another, which is to saymost of my life.
And I started cooking when I was12 years old, you know.
So sometime.
So to me, food was just anothermaterial to be creative with.

Joe Natoli (01:01:01):
I love that.

Peter Kaizer (01:01:02):
You know and early on leather was, you know, was
the first material I worked withto sort of make objects, and
then it was Clay and you know,now it's pushing pixels around.
But at the end of the day to me,it all comes back to creating a
really great experience forpeople for humans.
I mean this comes back to tryingto connect all of this to our

(01:01:28):
enjoyment.

Joe Natoli (01:01:28):
Yeah, to people.

Peter Kaizer (01:01:28):
To people.
The other thing is, I'm aneternal optimist.
I mean, I really am, with allthe, you know, all the crap
going on in the world.
I still am an optimist.
I always have been.
When my my wife and I, when wegot married, you know part of
our wedding vows were that I'm aglass half-full person and she's
a glass half-empty person.

(01:01:49):
So we balance each other out.

Joe Natoli (01:01:53):
Balance is important.

Peter Kaizer (01:01:54):
Yeah.
So I mean, I am...
I'm a skeptical optimistinternally.
And I do think that, you know,there's goodness pretty much
almost anywhere.
And that, like we've talked alot about the challenges that
you know you and I face in ourin our day to day work.
And you know that happens whenyou get to sort of organizations

(01:02:17):
of scale that are trying to dosomething right.
But I think that, you know, ifthe intent to improve and make
something better is there,you'll find a way.
I mean the process will maybesuck all the wind out of your
sails, but you'll get there.

Joe Natoli (01:02:32):
Yeah I agree with that.
The journey is never what youthink it's going to be.

Peter Kaizer (01:02:36):
Yeah yeah.
So I'm also been a practicingBuddhist for, I don't know,
45-50 years.

Joe Natoli (01:02:44):
I think, you know, I think I knew that about you
because that's something that—although I'm I wouldn't call
myself practicing— but I thinkthat is something that you and I
share.

Peter Kaizer (01:02:52):
Yeah, my joke was, you know, I'm a nice Jewish boy,
I was a professional Catholicfor 15 years and I've been a
practicing Buddhist for most ofmy life.
That's my spiritual tripod.

Joe Natoli (01:03:03):
Spiritual tripod, I like that! I like that.
What's the last book you read?

Peter Kaizer (01:03:08):
Actually it was Ready Player One

Joe Natoli (01:03:10):
Was it?

Peter Kaizer (01:03:11):
Yeah.
I tend to go between fiction andnonfiction.
I'm a big nonfiction consumer,so I tend to jump in between the
two.
So, I also because of myinterest in food, I read a lot
of...so the book I read beforethat was a fabulous book but it
was written by Edward Lee, who'sa chef.
He was actually a Top Chefcontestant, he owns a restaurant

(01:03:33):
in Louisville.
It was basically, he took sometime and traveled around the
country to differentcommunities, to immigrant
communities to find out aboutthe food of those immigrant
communities.
Basically.
Like, I had no idea thatDearborn Michigan had the
largest, has the largest Muslimpopulation of any community in
the U.S.

Joe Natoli (01:03:52):
Wow, I didn't know that either.

Peter Kaizer (01:03:53):
And that Patterson New Jersey is a mecca for
Peruvian food.
So it was really interesting.

Joe Natoli (01:03:59):
That's really cool.

Peter Kaizer (01:04:00):
Anyway, so I go back and forth between fiction
and nonfiction.

Joe Natoli (01:04:04):
What brings you the most joy?

Peter Kaizer (01:04:07):
Creating something that people enjoy, that people
enjoy using.
So whether it's a meal, awell-prepared meal, whether it's
an interface that I've designed,whether it's a conversation I've
had with them, even if it's adifficult conversation

(01:04:27):
because...
I had that conversation withthem in a way that we can just
agree to disagree.
You know, like there's a,there's a person on Facebook
that I'm connected to whoprobably couldn't be more
different than I am politically.
But we have fascinating back andforth because it's respectful.

(01:04:48):
I mean even that, you know, kindof experience.
So any time I can sort offacilitate, or be part of
creating an experience thatpeople think is a positive
experience.
I think that's good, that bringsme a lot of joy.

Joe Natoli (01:05:05):
I think that's a great answer.

Peter Kaizer (01:05:06):
Yeah you know, I mean other than walking both of
my daughters down the aisle lastyear for their weddings, four
months apart.
You know.

Joe Natoli (01:05:15):
Wow.
Incredible.

Peter Kaizer (01:05:17):
Yep.

Joe Natoli (01:05:17):
That's incredible.
And you're still standing!

Peter Kaizer (01:05:20):
I'm still standing.
My bank account is off of lifesupport.
Yeah yeah.
Both my girls got married lastyear.

Joe Natoli (01:05:30):
Well, congratulations, that's
fantastic.
So last question.

Peter Kaizer (01:05:33):
All right.

Joe Natoli (01:05:34):
For younger designers, developers, UXers,
people coming up in thisdiscipline one way or the other.
What do you think is the mostimportant piece of advice you
would have to offer them, havingdone this for so long in so many
different ways, having touchedso many parts of user
experience?

Peter Kaizer (01:05:53):
I would say two things.
I would say learn how to be areally good listener.
I mean a REALLY good listener.

Joe Natoli (01:06:03):
Yeah.

Peter Kaizer (01:06:03):
And write.
Learn how to write, becauseanybody can learn how to use a
design tool.
Anybody can learn how to writecode.
I mean, for some people it'seasier than others.
But pay attention, listen.
Be responsible for sort of youractions, understand that what
you're creating is for the mostwily— not unstable, but

(01:06:32):
unpredictable— entity increation: a human being.

Joe Natoli (01:06:40):
Truer words were never spoken.

Peter Kaizer (01:06:43):
So you know you really...
And you know don't lose sight ofwhat the problem you're trying
to solve is.

Joe Natoli (01:06:50):
Yeah.
I think that's great advice.

Peter Kaizer (01:06:52):
Thanks.
Thanks.

Joe Natoli (01:06:53):
Peter, I cannot thank you enough for your time
today.
This has been a greatconversation.
I feel like I could probably dothis for another couple of
hours.

Peter Kaizer (01:07:00):
Yeah.
so could I.
It's been great.
I've been looking forward tothis for a long time.
So...

Joe Natoli (01:07:04):
Same here and maybe we get to do it again sooner
rather than later.

Peter Kaizer (01:07:07):
Yeah, absolutely, I would, I would love to sort of
keep, you know, keep in touch,keep the conversation going.

Joe Natoli (01:07:13):
Thank you so much.

Peter Kaizer (01:07:14):
All right take care.
Have a great day.

Joe Natoli (01:07:16):
You too Peter.

Peter Kaizer (01:07:16):
Talk to you soon.

Joe Natoli (01:07:17):
Yes sir.
That wraps up this edition ofMaking UX Work.
Thanks for listening, and I hopehearing these stories provide
some useful perspective andencouragement— along with a
reminder that you're not aloneout there.
Before I go, I want you to knowthat you can find show notes and
links to the things mentionedduring our conversation by
visiting givegoodux.com/podcast.
You'll also find links to moreUX resources on the web and
social media along with ways tocontact me if you're interested
in sharing your own story here.
Until next time this is JoeNatoli, reminding you that it's
people like you who make UXwork.