Episode 10, Kristin Currier Ludlow: YES WE CAN!

My guest today is Kristin Currier Ludlow, a Digital Designer with over 20 years of helping people shop better online and in stores.

In my experience, retail is one of the toughest industries to advocate for and create UX change, but as you'll hear, it's a challenge Kristin has risen to — and overcome.

Kristin believes that everything in retail — and life — is user experience. Whether you're resetting a store or an building an online shopping cart, it's the same thing. And as you'll hear, she's applied that belief to every task she's ever tackled.

From companies like Office Depot, Home Depot, CompUSA and Levenger to her current gig with a small UX team at City Furniture, Kristin has carried the DIY spirit and positive, can-do attitude of punk rock into everything she does.

That being something we share, this was an absolutely inspiring conversation for me.

Twitter:

@kristincurrier

Facebook:

Kristin Joy Currier Ludlow

LinkedIn:

Kristin (Currier) Ludlow, UXC

Instagram:

kristincurrier

Websites:

http://source-studio.com
http://kristincurrier.com/

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The Stache mantra is  that even in the darkest times, there is a light revealing prosperity; find your light and let it guide you through the darkness. Visit https://www.stache.studio/ to check out their incredibly well-designed products and learn more!

Episode Transcript

Joe Natoli (00:09):
Hello and welcome to Making UX Work, the Give Good UX
podcast.
I'm your host Joe Natoli, andour focus here is on folks like
you doing real, oftenunglamorous UX work in the real
world.
You'll hear about theirstruggles, their successes and
their journey to and through thetrenches of product design,
development and, of course, userexperience.

(00:30):
My guest today is KristinCourrier Ludlow, a Digital
Designer with over 20 years ofhelping people shop better
online and in stores.
She's worked with companies likeOffice Depot, Home Depot,
CompUSA, Levenger and now CityFurniture, a South Florida chain
that's rebranding, expanding andrapidly growing their e-commerce

(00:51):
team.
Kristin believes that everythingin retail— and life— is user
experience.
Whether you're resetting a storeor building an online shopping
cart, it's the same thing.
Here's my conversation withKristin Currier Ludlow on Making
UX Work.
So Kristin...
How are you?

Kristin Currier (01:12):
I'm fantastic.
How are you?

Joe Natoli (01:13):
I am fantastic as well it's the end of the week.

Kristin Currier (01:16):
I know, yaay!

Joe Natoli (01:17):
It's my favorite day the week.
What's going on for you thisweekend, anything exciting?

Kristin Currier (01:24):
Yeah! We've got a lot of exciting things going
on.
I have been doing a lot of workwith the e-mail here, e-mail
design.
I work for City Furniture herein Florida.
And I've done e-mail designamongst other design work for
other e-commerce companies for awhile now.
This is a sort of a family-ledbusiness that's looking to

(01:46):
expand rapidly and they're goingunder a little bit of a rebrand
right now.
So we've got a lot going on.
It's...
We're moving really quickly withthe rebrand and also expansion
plans into northern Florida.
So I'm putting together a lot offoundational elements for the
email going forward and we'realso adding more people into the

(02:08):
team.

Joe Natoli (02:09):
Very cool.

Kristin Currier (02:10):
So exciting times.

Joe Natoli (02:12):
Yeah, well speaking of which, how many people are on
that team?
I mean how many people areworking in the sort of UX or
design area, aside fromyourself?

Kristin Currier (02:19):
Well, for just the design team, there's three
of us.

Joe Natoli (02:22):
Okay.

Kristin Currier (02:22):
And there was one UX designer when I first got
here and then we did we hired avisual designer probably a year
ago.
And so is the three of us are alittle bit like a supergroup
right now.

Joe Natoli (02:35):
Supergroup, I like that!

Kristin Currier (02:38):
That's exactly what we are.

Joe Natoli (02:39):
You're releasing a record soon, I guess?

Kristin Currier (02:41):
I think so yeah.

Joe Natoli (02:45):
I'll tell you what's cool, when I look at your
LinkedIn profile, is that alldown the line, right, I see
retail organizations.

Kristin Currier (02:53):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (02:54):
Home Depot, CompUSA, Level 1, Levenger, Office Depot
and then City Furniture.
And what jumps out at me inparticular is that there's a
very clear path, to me, thatthis that this represents.

Kristin Currier (03:08):
Right.

Joe Natoli (03:09):
OK, you started in...
Looks like you were doing somevisual merchandising at first.

Kristin Currier (03:14):
I sure was.

Joe Natoli (03:15):
Things like that, signs displays?

Kristin Currier (03:18):
Yep.

Joe Natoli (03:19):
Right, so to come in at that level and then work your
way up you know sort of throughvarious things to where you are
right now.
To me this is sort of like...
It's an inspirational path, Ithink,.
because a lot of folks feel likethey'll never get to where they
want to be.
And they feel like the jobthey're doing now is very far

(03:40):
removed from what they want.
And I don't know, to my eye, youare living proof that it can
absolutely be done.

Kristin Currier (03:49):
Absolutely.
I absolutely agree.
It's it's been a wild ride.
I got started in retail, just...
I needed a job.
I was probably 19 years old andI just started out of the sort
of what...
They sold liquidated goods.
So if you had a business andthat business went up in flames
and you had merchandise, thiscompany would pick it up and
resell it.

(04:09):
And it was a funky littlecompany in the Boston area.
And I started out doing alltheir hand-painted signs and
posters.
And from then on I continued towork in retail it seemed every
job I had and I've had a ton ofjobs in brick-and-mortar and
design for retail.
It was all about making a betterenvironment for shoppers.

Joe Natoli (04:31):
And that's the gig, right?
I mean, in every aspect andevery aspect of, you know, what
you're doing in a retail typeenvironment.
I have always personally felt...
Because my past history I had alot of retail clients as well.
Yeah.
Worked for Merry-Go-Round at onepoint, in-house.
Way way way way way back when.

(04:52):
And it's kind of like the thingI always say about design,
right?
Design is design and design isUX.
It's all the same stuff.
When you think about marketingbranding and all this...
The outward expression of thatas it relates to the people
shopping in the stores or onlineor whatever it is.

Kristin Currier (05:07):
Right.

Joe Natoli (05:07):
I mean, that's what we're doing here, Right?

Kristin Currier (05:10):
Exactly.

Joe Natoli (05:10):
Do you feel like because, because of these
environments that you've workedin, because of sort of the
retail aspect of what you'redoing, do you feel like you may
have gained some experiences orinsights that benefit you in
particular as you go forward?

Kristin Currier (05:24):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Since I've been where I'veworked, when I started out it
was face-to-face with thecustomer.
I did a lot of work with HomeDepot on the floor and, you
know, various other retailplaces where I had direct access
to the customers and also thesalespeople.
They're really important to getto know too, because they have

(05:46):
first experience first-handexperience with what customers
are asking for, how they shop,

Joe Natoli (05:51):
Yeah, yep.

Kristin Currier (05:51):
To transfer that over to...
First print, and then to online,you really get a good range of
you know, feel for whatcustomers are looking for.
Kind of like an empathy thing.

Joe Natoli (06:03):
Yeah I would think having that kind of face-to-face
contact goes a long way.
In that, in particular if youwork on the floor, I think you
see what's lacking number one—based on the questions people
asking you— and I'm sure thatyou start to see patterns.

Kristin Currier (06:21):
Oh you sure do.

Joe Natoli (06:23):
Any incidents or stories, or anything that stands
out for you in any of thosegigs?

Kristin Currier (06:30):
Yeah.
I think when I was working forHome Depot, it was one of the
first stores in the Quincy,Massachusetts area.
And it was it was when HomeDepot was first really spreading
across the country.
They started in Georgia and theywere gonna open up their first
Boston area store and that wasin the Quincy, Massachusetts
area.
And I got a job there.
I was working the sales floorand I noticed that nothing was

(06:53):
really signed.
You know, this is the first realbig box model that people were
experiencing and they would walkinto the store and they'd be
completely lost.
It was a very confusingexperience.
Lots of truck you know trucksbeeping and rolling around and
big things being moved around.
Nothing was really signed verywell, people didn't know how

(07:14):
much anything was, they didn'tknow where to find things.
And I answered a lot ofquestions.
We all were very heavy oncustomer service,because we had
to be there with the customerand basically take them by the
hand and help them out.
So I started signing everythingand making sure everything in
the store was signed.

(07:34):
All the bulk stacks were signed.
And I eventually ended upcreating, like a wayfinder
system that would indicate inthe aisles where all things
would be.
So if you're looking for screws,you knew where those would be.
And so that was sort of my firstintroduction to...
I don't know if you want to callit Information Architecture, but
just getting people to find whatthey're looking for.

Joe Natoli (07:57):
Yeah.
Out of curiosity how new wasHome Depot at this point in the
time period that you're talkingabout?
Like how new was this concept ofthis massive store where
everything you could everpossibly want in terms of home
improvement was in one place.
In this warehouse-sized space.

Kristin Currier (08:14):
Well we had a couple of stores in the New
England area that sort ofemulated what Home Depot was
doing, but not to this breadth.
This place was massive.
And I don't think we even hadWal-Marts at that time.
Now we had a few largedepartment stores but a home
improvement store of this sizewas kind of...

(08:35):
it blew people's minds a bit.

Joe Natoli (08:36):
Right, so it's...
What I'm getting at is thatgoing from what you're used to
to this entirely new concept isa pretty overwhelming
experience.

Kristin Currier (08:44):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (08:45):
You know, it's like wandering into a city that
doesn't have any street signs.

Kristin Currier (08:51):
It really was! People had no frame of reference
at all, they were just wanderingaround completely lost.

Joe Natoli (08:56):
So when you created these signs, were you doing
it...was this sort of a DIYthing, or was it sanctioned by
Home Depot where they're saying"OK we'll print them.
If you, if you do them we'llprint them.
"

Kristin Currier (09:05):
Oh, everything's DIY with me....
It wasn't even my job.
You know, in the beginning.
I just saw a need and I said"youknow what, it will make my life
easier too."

Joe Natoli (09:18):
I love this.

Kristin Currier (09:20):
Open up more space for me to get things done
because I was also involved withyou know a lot of resets and
making things physicallyshoppable for people.
So yeah I ended up just takingthis on and the manager said,
"You know what, this is reallycool.
Why don't you just do this fulltime?" So that's all I did.

Joe Natoli (09:38):
Wow.

Kristin Currier (09:39):
Yeah.
And then eventually they createdtheir own plastic wayfinder
system and installed it all overthe store.

Joe Natoli (09:45):
That's fantastic.

Kristin Currier (09:46):
Yeah!

Joe Natoli (09:47):
Absolutely fantastic.
And here's what's relevant, OK,for everybody that's listening.
Folks, this is a prime example.
If I had a nickel for every timeI heard somebody say,"well, you
know they won't give us approvalto do this.
Or they won't, they don't agreethat we should do this," or"I'm
not allowed to." And I think tomyself,"Bullshit.
Just do it."

Kristin Currier (10:08):
Yes.

Joe Natoli (10:09):
You know?
I mean case in point, like,"OKthis sucks for us, it sucks for
our customers." And you know, Imean, you could've spent another
month bitching about it— but youdidn't.
You just said,"All right, well,here's what I'm going to do.
I'm gonna fix it."

Kristin Currier (10:24):
Right.
I honestly I think that's thenature of e-commerce people, at
least most the people I'veworked with, they have that
mindset.
We're all renegades andsometimes we get to trouble and
break some rules and rattle somecages, but we're usually,
hopefully, thinking about theuser at all times.

Joe Natoli (10:41):
I think that's really interesting that you say
that.
So this is sort of acharacteristic thread that
you've seen through the folksthat you've worked with in the
space?

Kristin Currier (10:49):
Yes, most of them.

Joe Natoli (10:51):
Wow.
Why do you think that is?

Kristin Currier (10:52):
I think it's...
The nature of e-commerce ingeneral moves really quickly and
so does technology.
And you you are you're alwayschallenged to keep up with, you
know, shopper habits and whatpeople are really doing and what
they're buying.
So you've got to get used tochange and to have that mindset,
you've got to be a little bit ofa rebel.

(11:12):
And be able to accept challenge,and challenge.
And to adapt with the times.
So I just think it's naturalwith most people I've worked
with.

Joe Natoli (11:21):
Really do find that fascinating and it makes total
sense.
You know, the way you justexplained it.

Kristin Currier (11:25):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (11:26):
It makes total sense to me.
But it's the kind of thing, youknow, I would really like to see
take hold in a lot more places.

Kristin Currier (11:35):
Yeah, so would I.

Joe Natoli (11:36):
Because the pace is the same, as far as I can see.
You know?
I mean the pace of change, thepace of technological
advancement, the pace at which,inside an organization, I always
say the urgent trumps theimportant.
..like"Do this! Do this! Dothis! We have to do this, like
when are you going to..." Youknow?
I talked to a company a weekago, they're talking to me about

(11:56):
this new B2B Web site.
They want to roll outspecifically for their business
customers.

Kristin Currier (12:04):
Right.

Joe Natoli (12:04):
And they're reeling off this massive amount of
content changes they want tomake and Information
Architecture ideas and all thesethings— and it's all good, OK,
it's all really smart—

Kristin Currier (12:15):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (12:15):
It's all moving in the right direction.
And I say"OK, what do you thinkyour general timeline looks like
for this?" And they go,"nextWednesday."

Kristin Currier (12:27):
(laughter)

Joe Natoli (12:27):
I said,"How?""I don't mean to be the naysayer in
the room, but how do youpossibly think you're going to
pull that off, right, nextWednesday?" What IS that?
You know?
And what inevitably happens isbecause that target is so big,
nothing happens.
Right, because they're trying todo all of it at the same time.

Kristin Currier (12:46):
Yeah.
Yep.

Joe Natoli (12:49):
So again, I just think your example is a really
good one.
What's our most pressing problemright now?
It's this.
OK?
Let's do this.

Kristin Currier (12:58):
Right.

Joe Natoli (12:59):
Here's the solution.

Kristin Currier (12:59):
Right.

Joe Natoli (13:00):
Put up some signs.

Kristin Currier (13:01):
Yep.

Joe Natoli (13:01):
Speaking of the DIY thing, I learned a short while
ago that you and I have somesimilar maybe punk rock roots.

Kristin Currier (13:12):
Yeah I guess we do.

Joe Natoli (13:15):
Tell me a little bit about that.

Kristin Currier (13:17):
Oh boy.
Well, growing up in the southshore area of Boston, you know,
we had a nice music scene goingon there.

Joe Natoli (13:27):
Yes you did.

Kristin Currier (13:28):
We sure did.
And it was pretty amazing.
I was a lonely, nerd nerdy kidgrowing up in a fishing village
basically.
And I wasn't really into themusic around me and I didn't
have a whole lot of closefriends.
I would, you know, play with theradio dial looking for signs of
life.
You know, almost like that LouReed song— little girl, five

(13:52):
years old, finding rock'n roll—that was me.
And yeah I found some greatmusic being put out by college
stations and got into that andthen I started finding people
that were almost like my tribe.
You know, people who are intothe skateboarding scene and they
would go to shows in downtownBoston and that sort of thing.
And that's actually where I metmy husband.

(14:13):
Why I I'm currently married to.
We're a couple of old punks thatstill listen to the music and
still love it.
I grew up with Henry Rollinstoo.
I was reading a lot of hispoetry growing up.

Joe Natoli (14:26):
You and I, we could probably talk for days about
that.
All by itself.
And like you, I take inspirationfrom the same places.
You know, I mean for me, eventhough I grew up in Ohio, OK...
For whatever reason, my cousinsand a good friend of ours, Jimmy
Donadio, was into D.C.
hardcore in particular.

(14:46):
So you know, Bad Brains, MinorThreat, Black Flag, Fugazi, even
though flag went out toCalifornia.
But, you know, Henry and Ian inparticular were kind of like the
cornerstones of all this.
And the labels too like you knowlike SST, Dischord...
outta Boston, Taang records.

Kristin Currier (15:06):
Yeah!

Joe Natoli (15:07):
Right?
All that stuff.

Kristin Currier (15:11):
Yeah, it was great stuff.

Joe Natoli (15:12):
To what degree do you feel like that experience,
that scene, that music— and asyou said, I mean you're still
sort of there, it's stillmeaningful to you, which it is
for me as well—

Kristin Currier (15:22):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (15:23):
How do you feel like that influenced your approach?
I mean, not just even to yourcareer but...
But to everything, to yourtrajectory from the time you
discovered that stuff, to thetime you went to school, to the
time your first job and onward.

Kristin Currier (15:40):
Oh, everything.
And I really mean that.
It affects everything that I doand it provides a lens for me to
view the world as something toquestion.
And even myself, questioningmyself, like if I ever think I
can't do something.
If I can't learn how to code orif I can't get this job I want
to get.
I call bullshit on it.

Joe Natoli (16:00):
Yeah.

Kristin Currier (16:01):
You know, I challenge myself and I like to
challenge other people as well.
It's a very DIY ethic.
Like anything you think youcan't do, you CAN if you really
put your mind to it.

Joe Natoli (16:13):
Yep totally agree.

Kristin Currier (16:14):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (16:15):
I also feel like— and this may be stretching the
thread here— but I also feellike the accessibility of a lot
of those folks, a lot of thosemusicians, a lot of those bands,
played a major role in sort ofshifting my perspective of who
they were.
Because when you removed, youknow, you look at these these
folks like they are..., I don'tknow they're celebrities in a

(16:38):
way.
They're...
They're removed.
Like you're not them, you're noton that level.
They exist in this rarified airof some sort.
And then when you have exposureto them.
Right.
If you if you're lucky enough tomeet some of these folks in
person, you sort of get a verydifferent perspective, which is
like,"no, I pulled myself up outof it just like you have to."

Kristin Currier (16:58):
Yes.

Joe Natoli (16:58):
You know, is essentially the message.
I had a five-minute conversationa million years ago with Ian
MacKaye, and it like...my headexploded.
Because in this tiny littlespace of time, just a random
conversation, he was just like,"well no, we just decided that
somebody should do this.
So we did it.
Right and we didn't know whatwe're doing.
There was no great plan otherthan my friends are making

(17:20):
awesome music and I want torelease it."

Kristin Currier (17:21):
That's it.
That's another thing is that youdon't have to know what you're
doing!

Joe Natoli (17:25):
No.

Kristin Currier (17:26):
And you might be fearful that you're going to
fail, and you have to do itanyway.
You know, you just have to fallon your face and get back up and
do it again.
You might be only able to playthree chords, but you can make a
great song out of three chords.
It's the same that applies indesign.
And I feel like most people Iwork with, they've got a lot of
punk rock in them.
They're not afraid to fail.

Joe Natoli (17:48):
And I think it's necessary.

Kristin Currier (17:49):
Yeah it really is.

Joe Natoli (17:51):
I think that spirit is necessary.
I mean, a lot of the things thatI say out loud and then in
interviews and articles, comedirectly from those experiences.
I mean, you talked about Henry,right?

Kristin Currier (18:02):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (18:03):
Here's a guy who for the last, I don't know, probably
since 1989, OK?
If I have ever written oremailed or anything like
that...you get a response back.

Kristin Currier (18:13):
Wow.

Joe Natoli (18:14):
Always.
Every time.

Kristin Currier (18:15):
Yes.

Joe Natoli (18:16):
And, like again, a million years ago I asked the
question"What would you say tosomebody"— we were talking about
writers actually— And I said,"What would you say to somebody
who feels like they want towrite, whether it's poetry or
books or whatever the case maybe, you know, what would your
advice to young people feelinglike this is this is a huge
mountain to climb?" And he said,"Go out there and get your nose

(18:38):
broken."

Kristin Currier (18:39):
Yep.

Joe Natoli (18:40):
Because there is no other way.
You can sit around waiting forthe opportunity, you can sit
around waiting until you'refearless,you can sit around
waiting for all the planets toalign or for the risk to lessen.
And it's not going to happen.

Kristin Currier (18:55):
No.

Joe Natoli (18:56):
Right?
And again, that was like amoment for me and I thought"I'm
going to carry that forward."

Kristin Currier (19:01):
Yeah it's very powerful

Joe Natoli (19:03):
And— I'm talking too much— but another thing that he
said to me, that I always carrywith me, is that he was like
"look, if I got this far, youknow— I'm a high school
education, minimum wage worldkind of guy— if I got this far
you should be able to get twiceas far." And I went WOW...

(19:23):
And I believe that.
At at this point in my career,at 50, I really really believe
that.
There is nothing stopping youexcept you.

Kristin Currier (19:32):
That's a beautiful thing to say,
especially when you're lookingat 50.
I just turned 49 yesterday.

Joe Natoli (19:39):
Ohhhh, you're going to join the club soon.

Kristin Currier (19:42):
I am, I'm headed there, not far behind!
But it's an interesting, youknow, age to be at.
And I you know I've had...
For the first time in my life,I'm experiencing that age
conversation.
I think a lot of designers dowhen they hit 40 and a lot of
millennials are getting pumpedout of these code academies...
And they're looking around at amarket that's changing and

(20:04):
shifting towards millennials.
And they're thinking tothemselves,"Am I relevant
anymore?" And I've had thatconversation and I never really
thought I would.
And I had to look at thatconversation and say to myself,
"you know what?
That chatter might always be inmy head, that doubt.
But you know it's just anotherdoubt that I had when I was
younger that just shifted intoanother context."

Joe Natoli (20:26):
Right.

Kristin Currier (20:26):
And I have to commit myself to what I am
empowered to do today., And justkind of call bullshit on myself
and move forward.

Joe Natoli (20:35):
So I mean you kind of just answered it.
But when you're struggling likethat...

Kristin Currier (20:39):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (20:39):
Because I don't think it goes away.

Kristin Currier (20:41):
No.

Joe Natoli (20:42):
You know, it sort of keeps popping up over and over
again.
When you're going through that,what do you call up in your
head, or your heart, or what doyou lean on to sort of help
yourself push through that.

Kristin Currier (20:55):
That's a really really good question.
It starts, I believe— and it'sgoing to sound a little'woo-woo'
— but I really look towardsgratitude and the things that
are going well in life.
And in your job and your careerand your relationships and
really taking a good look atwhat is working and remembering

(21:16):
a bigger picture.
It's not just about in themoment.
It's not just about how you aredoubting yourself right here and
now; it's about the bigger scopeof things and what's possible.
And I know that sounds reallylike a big tent thing but it
really that's what gets megoing, is thinking about all the
endless possibilities that areopening up in this field and in

(21:36):
life in general.

Joe Natoli (21:37):
Yeah

Kristin Currier (21:38):
It's huge.
I'm an optimist.
That's what I am.

Joe Natoli (21:41):
That's good.
Being an optimist is a necessaryingredient.

Kristin Currier (21:44):
Yup.

Joe Natoli (21:45):
it's a requirement for this job.

Kristin Currier (21:46):
Yes it is.

Joe Natoli (21:47):
You know?
And and I think you're rightabout I don't think it sounds
'woo woo' at all.
I think that it's very easy,especially when you're
struggling, to lose sight of,like you said the things that
are working.

Kristin Currier (22:00):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (22:00):
To lose sight of what's going right, to lose
sight of what you'veaccomplished.

Kristin Currier (22:04):
Right.

Joe Natoli (22:05):
And you have to.
I totally, totally agree withyou.
You have to lean on that.
I mean I'll give you an example.
Doug Collins, who's in thegroup, just launched a new Web
site called UX News and he'sdoing this thing called Five
Question Friday.
So he asked me to be sort of thefirst guest.
Anyway, he posted a quick thinglast night that said this is
coming up tomorrow.

(22:25):
And he said some unbelievablethings that really floored me.
He was like, you know, aboutabout the value of the answers I
gave him.
And he was like, you know"sending shivers up my spine" or
something like that.
And uh...
The only reason I mention thatis because every single time
that happens, I am genuinely...
there's some part of me that isgenuinely shocked.

Kristin Currier (22:46):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (22:48):
You know, that's like,"me?"

Kristin Currier (22:52):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (22:54):
You know, it just it never...
It never stops.
And I think that's.
The negative part of that is, Ithink like we're talking about,
it's very easy to lose sight ofyour value.
Of what you provide to people.

Kristin Currier (23:08):
Yeah.
It can be it can be a challengeat times.

Joe Natoli (23:11):
What kinds of things show up for you that make you
feel like"Okay, yeah.
This is as it should be.
This is, I'm headed in the rightdirection here.

Kristin Currier (23:20):
Oh wow, yeah.

Joe Natoli (23:22):
I mean what kind of signposts, or evidence, or
things of that nature do youlook for?

Kristin Currier (23:27):
It just presents itself, one thing after
another.
It's it's everywhere I look.
I just know I'm absolutely inthe right place at the right
time and with the right people.
And it's really remarkable whereI'm at right now, because we
have leadership buy-in from thetop.
So everything that we're tryingto do here, on our little
growing team, they have ourback.

(23:49):
And...
Just the right people are in theright places at the right time
and everything's working as itshould.

Joe Natoli (23:55):
Is that buy-in something that you had to to
work for, or was it, I mean wasthere before you came in?
Or was it sort of a symbiotickind of thing where that grew as
you did more work?

Kristin Currier (24:07):
Um, a little bit of both.
And I think the buy-in wasalready there.
I think it was the mindset thatwas already in place.
That the people who run thiscompany, they really want to
grow.
They...
This is a lean company.
So they have people come overhere from Toyota all the time.
It's just remarkable how theyrun this company.
So they're very open to changeand growth.

(24:28):
So when, this is a very younge-commerce team both in age and
also in time span working forthis company.
So we just kept pushing for, youknow, little things and
incremental improvements.
And winning on that.
We have a little analytics teamand they back up what we do with
data.
So when we show them data, thatreally also reinforces that

(24:49):
buy-in.
So the right things are in theright place at the right time.

Joe Natoli (24:53):
It certainly sounds like it.
Can you give me an example of aninstance where you had an
incremental win that led tosomething, you know, bigger?
Where you got, you had a higherdegree of trust.
Right.
And now you're, you can dosomething that's even more
impactful, as a result ofgetting that small win?

Kristin Currier (25:06):
Yeah, I think it goes to the design that we're
doing here.
The visual design and the UXdesign together.
Before we came here, they hadthe traditional design team
handling this, the brandingteam.
And although they're greatdesigners, there wasn't, they
weren't really connected to theuser experience.
What was happening on the on thewebsite.

(25:28):
So when we came in, we had toshow them— in a gentle manner
because we didn't want todisrupt the culture too much.
And little by little, we startedreally gaining ground and edging
the company more towards a verysophisticated look and feel.
It took some time, but we wereable to do it.

(25:48):
And if you looked at how welooked like about a year ago and
see what where we're at now— andwe still have a lot of work to
do, we're still a small team—but it's night and day.
It's a sea change.

Joe Natoli (26:01):
I just called up the website.
City Furniture.
Very, very nice.
How old is this company?

Kristin Currier (26:06):
About 40 years old.

Joe Natoli (26:08):
Wow.

Kristin Currier (26:10):
Yeah.
They started out as a waterbedcompany 40 years ago.

Joe Natoli (26:13):
Interesting.
So what I'm seeing now you'resaying is a radical departure
from what was.

Kristin Currier (26:17):
Yes.

Joe Natoli (26:18):
Well, this is very...
I mean, this looks like atop-tier retail brand.

Kristin Currier (26:22):
That's what we're shooting for.

Joe Natoli (26:24):
Yeah obviously.
And it's remarkable.
The reason I asked you abouttheir age was because quite
honestly it's very remarkablefor a company that's 40 years
old to have this kind of verystrong commitment to UX, to
design.
To giving you guys the leeway tomove things forward.

Kristin Currier (26:41):
Yeah it's, it's remarkable alright.
And it's so cool to watch and bea part of.
And that's part of where mygratitude stems from, is that I
get to be here.
I get to work with these peopleand create, you know, a more
mature e-commerce and UX team.
We're tiny now but you know,since I've been here, we've
really expanded the developmentside.
We brought on another datascientist and added more product

(27:05):
owners.
So I'm looking at this companyjust expanding and it's going to
be wonderful to see what weaccomplish in the next year.
Next five years.

Joe Natoli (27:13):
I mean, it sounds fantastic.
The environment that you're incertainly seems conducive to
that kind of growth.

Kristin Currier (27:20):
Oh yeah, it's fun.

Joe Natoli (27:21):
Sure.
So let's go here.
In terms of what you think is onthe horizon here— your growth,
your expansion— what do youthink that looks like?
In a couple of ways.
Right, in the outward-facingservice of the company in terms
of how it serves consumers,right?
From Web site to retail tophysical brick and mortar to

(27:43):
maybe apps and things like that.
But also the sort of makeup ofthe team.
I mean what, how do you see thatevolving from here.

Kristin Currier (27:53):
Wow.

Joe Natoli (27:53):
If you've had those discussions.
I'm just curious.

Kristin Currier (27:55):
Yeah.
The possibilities are endlesswith this one.
I see the team, and, when Iworked for Office Depot I kind
of saw a little bit of this too,because it was a while back and
I was part of a very small teamthat grew extremely rapidly.
So I have a little bit of amodel that I've built up in my
head.
We'll see how close to realityit becomes.

(28:17):
But I see this team reallygrowing, probably doubling in
size.
We're talking about here hiringanother designer and we're going
to need a whole UX team, I knowthat for sure.
We're going to be moving intomobile, augmented reality and
really looking at user testing.
We don't do any user testingright now, so we're sort of

(28:38):
designing of the dark a littlebit.
So that's going to be on thehorizon as well.
We're looking at moving teammembers remotely so we're
looking at our processes.
We have a little bit of a mashup between how Google Design
works and Agile and then Kanban.
So it's a interesting mix thatwe've got going on and we're

(29:00):
in...
Almost like an experimentalstage, where we'll see what
works, what doesn't and we getrid of the things that don't
work for us in our processes.
And we move forward with thethings that do.
And eventually, that's going toallow us to be able to work
remotely as well.

Joe Natoli (29:13):
Wow.
You're making my heart beat fastright now.

Kristin Currier (29:15):
(laughter)

Joe Natoli (29:18):
You really are because I just...
You don't know how much I loveto hear that.
And the fact that you're notsaying"okay, we're following
THIS specific process.
We're doing this.
And this.
It's like NO, we're taking thethings that work and it sounds
like you're being ruthless aboutthrowing out the things that
don't work.
Mash up is to me what everyorganization should be doing.

Kristin Currier (29:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's so cool and what's reallyawesome about this— and it goes
back to the DIY punk rock thing—is that we're not afraid of
failing.
I mean maybe we are a littlebit, I won't lie— but we're
still going to do it anyway, youknow.

Joe Natoli (29:52):
Yeah, but how big are you going to, are you really
going to fail.
You know what I mean?

Kristin Currier (29:55):
Right.

Joe Natoli (29:56):
It's not the kind of failure that will kill you.

Kristin Currier (29:59):
No.

Joe Natoli (30:00):
Since you don't do any user testing, what kinds of
evidence or insights orinvestigation are you dealing
with to sort of inform thedecisions you make?

Kristin Currier (30:12):
Well we do have a small data team and we just
started implementing A/Btesting.
And we brought on a contentproduct owner, who is fantastic,
and she's been doing a lot oftests for our home page.
And we're starting out reallysmall, like, just within the
last month.
And we'll be adding more testingas well.

(30:34):
And the culture itself, we'revery open to being wrong about
our assumptions.
At least I hope we are.
So we get a lot of feedback frompeople and we try to listen, do
a lot of listening to differentpeople in the company.
So the leadership, we listen tothem, we listen to other
designers on the team, we listento our copywriters and we try to

(30:57):
move from there.

Joe Natoli (30:59):
Which is the way to do it, right?
Incremental testing.
We're going to try this, we'regonna watch it, we're gonna
measure it and we're gonnacourse correct.

Kristin Currier (31:07):
Right, exactly.

Joe Natoli (31:08):
In the absence of face-to-face with users— which,
by the way, is not alwaysabsolutely necessary and you are
proof of that— then you have todo something.
So again, instead of sitting onyour hands and saying"well, we
don't have any access to endusers." So what?
Again, I just, I love hearingthis stuff.

(31:29):
I really do.
How much...
You mentioned sales beforehand.
One of the things that I see alot in organizations that sort
of blows my mind— and I'mcurious if it's been this way in
the organizations you've workedwith— nobody ever talks to
sales.
Nobody every talks to the salespeople.
They're never involved in UX ordesign discussions.

(31:49):
And I cannot for the life of meunderstand why.

Kristin Currier (31:52):
Happens all the time.

Joe Natoli (31:53):
Yeah?

Kristin Currier (31:54):
Yeah.
Big complaint that I would hearfrom sales people.

Joe Natoli (31:57):
Why do you think that is?

Kristin Currier (31:58):
We get in our own little bubble, I think.
We get very used to who we'reworking with on the team and we
get comfortable and sort of in alittle bit of a bubble.
And it almost becomes where,"we're corporate and they're in
the store." And one of the coolthings about where I'm at right
now is that the store is in, youknow, we're all together.

(32:18):
We've got other stores but wherewe work is right now IN a store.
So we get, we have access to,you know, the product and you
know, we can actually see thecustomers and go out and talk to
the sales people as well.

Joe Natoli (32:31):
So your offices are literally right in the store?
Like maybe on top of it orsomething?

Kristin Currier (32:35):
On top of it, yes.

Joe Natoli (32:36):
Wow.
That's fantastic.

Kristin Currier (32:38):
It's really cool.

Joe Natoli (32:39):
It's fantastic.
I mean, so you're so you'reseeing that, you have the
opportunity lots of in lots ofways to see real-time what's
going on.

Kristin Currier (32:46):
Yeah.
And access to the salespeoplewhenever we need them.

Joe Natoli (32:49):
How valuable is that access to you?

Kristin Currier (32:52):
Extremely valuable.
And we have a customer carecenter on site.
Those guys are amazing too,because they are fielding all
the pissed off calls fromcustomers.
They are fielding all thedelivery calls.
All those things, so all thepain points and friction that
people would experience they logfor us and we have somebody on

(33:14):
our team who works very closelywith them.
So we get a lot of feedback fromthem as well, as as well as from
the head of sales.

Joe Natoli (33:21):
In terms of user experience, in terms of customer
experience, right, in yourenvironment now— and again you
can lean on what you've done inthe past as well in answering
this— How important do you feel,and or have you seen, that
transparency is between thecompany and the customer?
In other words, where thecustomer doesn't feel like there

(33:44):
is a shell game being playedhere.
You know, that that you're notjust after their wallets.

Kristin Currier (33:50):
Yes.
Yeah I think I'm going to goback in time a little bit.
When I was working with CompUSA,I was working with doing a lot
space planning with them.
So there's signage and the waythey merchandise things and
making a shoppable environment.
There was a culture there wherewe almost never really listened
to the stores.

Joe Natoli (34:11):
Wow.

Kristin Currier (34:12):
We had access.
Our little team had access tothe stores and whatever we
designed, we would actuallybring into the store and
physically set it up.
So we had that connection.
And I got to talk to some of thesales people.
And my husband even worked forthe sales team at the time.
And the common refrainthroughout the whole sales team
was that"nobody listens to us.

(34:35):
Nobody cares." And eventuallythey went out of business.

Joe Natoli (34:36):
Yeah.
Well, there you go.

Kristin Currier (34:38):
Yeah.
So it's very important.

Joe Natoli (34:40):
Yeah.
I mean, I agree with that.
What sparked that is listeningyou talk, and I recently had an
experience where I just bought anew mattress.
All right, here's...
here's the exciting part ofturning 50 and your back hurts
and all sorts of things, is thatyou're thinking about your
birthday coming up, right?
And you're like oh what do Iwant for my birthday.
How about a MATTRESS.

(35:01):
How exciting is THIS.
WHOOO! I'm living, I'm livingthe dream here.
But but I had an experience atSleep Number.

Kristin Currier (35:13):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (35:14):
Right, I went to the sleep number store and I laid
down in this bed and...
It feels fantastic don't get mewrong.
I mean it really was something.
The way that it adjusts and theyrun me through all the different
models and I test things out andI'm really, really, really
impressed.

Kristin Currier (35:30):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (35:31):
And THEN I start asking questions about the
warranty.
Because they tell you well, wehave a 25 year warranty.
What I find out is that it'sreally not a 25 year warranty.

Kristin Currier (35:40):
Right.

Joe Natoli (35:40):
It is a TWO year warranty.
Oh and from year 3 to year 21,you pay 30 percent of any repair
and replacement costs.
Now, when a part costs upwardsof 900 dollars and the labor
required is maybe a couplehours, this is not a good deal.

(36:00):
And then from year 21 to 25, youpay like 60 percent.

Kristin Currier (36:05):
Sneaky.

Joe Natoli (36:06):
Right?
So not only is it sneaky, buthere's what that tells me: that
tells me the company is taking acalculated risk, OK?
Between years three and 25,stuff is going to break.

Kristin Currier (36:18):
Right.

Joe Natoli (36:19):
All right, that's why that policy is the way it
is.
And they don't tell you thatuntil you really start digging
and asking questions.
You have to get three or four,"well, it's a prorated warranty,
but it's the best warranty inthe industry."

Kristin Currier (36:32):
Right.

Joe Natoli (36:33):
And I had to keep asking to get to the truth.
And I thought OK, here's anopportunity for user experience,
customer experience, where evenif they were just upfront about
that you know clearlytransparently...
My impression of the wholeexperience might have been very
different.

Kristin Currier (36:50):
Right.

Joe Natoli (36:51):
And I see a lot of the same thing in retail in
particular.
You know, these sales, thespecials that get run.
And when you really look intohow it works, it sounds like buy
one get one free, or it soundslike get 40 percent off— and
then you look into it and itfeels like"well, we're still
going to take you for a ridehere and make you think you're
getting a deal."

Kristin Currier (37:12):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (37:12):
And that doesn't seem to want to die.
So to what degree have youexperienced that, fought that,
struggled with it...

Kristin Currier (37:21):
Only all the time! Even here, we struggle
with that, because it's aculture...
It's it's sort of ingrained oldschool way of doing things.
It is hard.
It's hard to break that culture.
You know, it's hard to relearnthese things and come from a
different mindset when you'rereally thinking about people
first, rather than trying tomake a buck.

(37:44):
So yeah.
Every job I've had I'veexperienced that and usually I'm
the one who's questioning it.
And it can be a hard battle tofight.

Joe Natoli (37:53):
Out of curiosity, do you feel like there are any
reasons— you know from the otherside of the argument— that make
sense to you?
Where you sort of understand whythey're clinging so tightly to
this this sort of traditionalmisdirection kind of thing that
they do.

Kristin Currier (38:09):
You know I want to, I want to say that my
perception is that they're kindof stuck in a thing of"we've
always done it this way."

Joe Natoli (38:18):
Yeah.
So do you think it's habit?

Kristin Currier (38:20):
I do.
I really do.
And it's been working for them,kind of, for so long, why change
it?
You know, even though yourpeople who are buying from you
are changing.
Their habits of buying arechanging and they're getting
smarter.

Joe Natoli (38:38):
Yeah.
See, that always, that alwaysfeels like playing not to lose.

Kristin Currier (38:42):
YEAH...

Joe Natoli (38:42):
Instead of playing to win.

Kristin Currier (38:44):
Yes.

Joe Natoli (38:45):
Right?
I mean because you think,"wellyou know, we've we've done
pretty well in that and for themost part, you know, nobody
calls us on it." And I don'tmean in a mean, deceptive way.
I mean it's just sort of...
It's sort of safe.
That's what's known.
And they say,"well, it's worked.
It's delivered this." And andI'm sure you find yourself in
the same position, in thoseconversations I find myself
being the person that says"Yeah,but what if you could do BETTER

(39:08):
than that?
What if you could do three timesthe business, simply by getting
rid of this little part thatreally isn't cost you that much
in dollars and cents and wouldgo a million miles in making
people feel like you're beinghonest with them?"

Kristin Currier (39:22):
Yeah.I feel like that's what our team is
trying to do every day.
We've got our own little battlesthat we fight.
And something I've experiencedwith— and this is a pretty
decent sized company and youknow, a company like Office
Depot which is even bigger— whenthat code of practice gets
spread out in an organizationthat big...

(39:43):
It's it's like playing a game ofWhack-a-Mole because it's
endemic.
It's rooted in the system.
And it's you gotta pick yourbattles wisely.
Yeah.
Or else you get tired.

Joe Natoli (39:54):
Or else what?

Kristin Currier (39:54):
You get tired.

Joe Natoli (39:56):
Yeah there's only so much energy to go around.
Only so much energy to goaround.
I get e-mails all the time,right: Five percent off! You
know, 5 percent?
Are you serious?
I'm not even moving out of thischair for five percent.
You know, 10 percent.
Like come on, who cares.

Kristin Currier (40:17):
Playing it safe.

Joe Natoli (40:18):
Give me a break.
You've got 300 percent markupand you're going to give me 10
percent?

Kristin Currier (40:21):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (40:21):
I think there's an entire cross-section of people,
consumers, who just don't buythat anymore.

Kristin Currier (40:28):
Not at all.

Joe Natoli (40:28):
So I understand you're still making X amount on
those deals.
But you can't tell me thatthey're returning the same way
they were 10 years ago or 20years ago.
Right?
I have never seen evidence ofthat.

Kristin Currier (40:39):
I think the cool thing with e-commerce in
general and being on the teamthat I'm with right now is that
having the ability to test ourassumptions goes a long way.
And we're able to do things thatare sort of different from what
everyone else is doing, and wecan test and see if it works.
You know, if we've got someonewho's like"I want to push this
10 percent," or whatever andwe're like,"no that's not going

(41:02):
to get anyone going.
Let's try this." We do have theability to do that.
Which is a great thing.

Joe Natoli (41:06):
Yeah, that's fantastic.

Kristin Currier (41:08):
And then we should show them the results and
that's how change happens.

Joe Natoli (41:11):
Because you have the opportunity to put it out there
and then pull it back equally asquick.

Kristin Currier (41:17):
Mm, hmm, absolutely.

Joe Natoli (41:18):
You know, no matter how it goes that's true.
I mean, when you think abouttraditional brick and mortar
retail and what it takes andwhat it used to take, pre
internet.

Kristin Currier (41:26):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (41:26):
To roll out a campaign like that, or you know,
to test a promotion.

Kristin Currier (41:32):
Right.

Joe Natoli (41:32):
Good lord.
Massive effort.

Kristin Currier (41:36):
Yeah, it sure is.

Joe Natoli (41:37):
Massive effort.
Out of curiosity...
and we're probably hammeringthis topic a little bit.
but that's OK.
Out of curiosity, what's thedifference in business between
your online e-commerce and yourin-store retail.
In other words where's themajority of your revenue coming
from and how is that shifting.

(41:57):
Is it changing?

Kristin Currier (41:58):
Yeah, it is shifting.
I think the majority is coming—and I'm not a numbers person—
but I do believe the majority iscoming from the stores, because
they've been around for a reallylong time and they do quite
well.
But e-commerce, we're catchingup.
Last month we...
we consider ourselves a storetoo and we beat out all the

(42:19):
other stores in the region.

Joe Natoli (42:20):
Wow.

Kristin Currier (42:20):
Yeah.
So we're ticking upward.

Joe Natoli (42:21):
That's fantastic.
What, the reason I'm curiousabout that is because of the
nature of what you sell.

Kristin Currier (42:27):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (42:27):
Right, which is furniture.

Kristin Currier (42:29):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (42:29):
Pretty hard, I think.
I think there's still a generalreluctance to buy certain types
of products online, sightunseen.

Kristin Currier (42:37):
Yeah it's interesting, because there are
some furniture companies likeJoybird, I think they're
exclusively online.
So they're targeting a marketthat's much more comfortable
buying large, you know, thingslike that online.
And then there's Wayfair andthey are all digital now.
They're opening up their firstbrick-and-mortar store, I think,

(42:58):
in Kentucky.
So they're experimenting with areal store as well.

Joe Natoli (43:03):
I'd be curious to learn why that is.
Because one of the things thatalways strikes me about
online-only businesses is thatyou have to deal with shipping
and return.

Kristin Currier (43:14):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (43:15):
And, by and large, there are a couple large
organizations who have trainedpeople to not want to pay for
the expense.
If I get something and there's aproblem with it, or I don't like
it, I want to be able to send itback to you.
And I do not want to have to payyou for it.

Kristin Currier (43:30):
Exactly.

Joe Natoli (43:31):
That genie is very much out of the bottle.
So I'm curious if there's, ifthere's an element of that for
them where they're saying,"youknow what?
We gotta cut down on some ofthis churn." If they can't be
Amazon— and I don't know whetherthey can't or can't, I don't
know much about Wayfair—

Kristin Currier (43:45):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (43:46):
But I'm really curious.

Kristin Currier (43:47):
And now Amazon selling furniture...
so that mixes it up a bit right.

Joe Natoli (43:53):
I mean I just told you about mattress shopping,
right.
You talk to these onlinecompanies and they're saying,
"hey, we'll ship it to yourhouse and sleep on it for 100
days" and 365 days in one case.

Kristin Currier (44:02):
Right.

Joe Natoli (44:04):
"And if you don't like it, we'll come get it." And
you pay nothing.

Kristin Currier (44:07):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (44:08):
It's incredible.

Kristin Currier (44:09):
It is, it really is.

Joe Natoli (44:10):
Absolutely incredible.
But it's the right tack.
OK.
Whether or not these companiessurvive, I really firmly believe
it's absolutely the rightapproach.
You are removing every possiblebarrier for someone to take the
leap.

Kristin Currier (44:23):
Yeah.
And I think another thing Iheard from a friend and also
read online, a company likeJoybird where they give you free
swatches.
So if you're thinking of buyingthis particular sofa and it's
making you nervous that,"Well Idon't know how I feel about
buying something online.
I don't know how it's going tolook and feel." You get the
swatches delivered to your houseand you can see what it looks

(44:44):
like and it gives you a littlemore sense of comfort, enough to
make that purchase.

Joe Natoli (44:48):
Absolutely fantastic.
I mean I think about, I'm goingback to music now.
I think about buying records,right?
Way back when, records andcassettes, there was no try
before you buy in any way.

Kristin Currier (45:00):
Nooo.

Joe Natoli (45:01):
Right?
I mean, you looked at the albumart and you went"OK, these guys
look pretty cool.
I think I'm going to take thishome." And sometimes you won and
sometimes you didn't.

Kristin Currier (45:10):
I did that all the time.
It was one of my favorite thingsto do.

Joe Natoli (45:13):
Yeah, mine too.
Were you ever a bargain binperson?

Kristin Currier (45:16):
Oh, absolutely.
I love secondhand record stores,you'd always find me in, you
know, some record store inCambridge.
Absolutely.

Joe Natoli (45:25):
I can remember going on a field trip in grade school.
And we went to some mall forsome reason.
And I really don't know why.
But I remember being late forthe bus leaving, because I was
in like Musicland or one ofthese these mall stores and they
had a big, like an industrialdrum-sized container that was

(45:46):
just full of cassettes.

Kristin Currier (45:47):
Right.

Joe Natoli (45:47):
And you literally had to put half your body in
there and just sort of digthrough and see what was in
there.
Because they were all like adollar or two dollars.

Kristin Currier (45:54):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (45:55):
And that's...
I'm that guy.
I've always been that guy.
I'm in there, I'm digging,right.
And I remember they came up tome, they were like"What are you
DOING?" And I'm like"looking formusic, it's important." But the
experience, I think, is part ofthat.
The anticipation is part ofthat.
The risk and reward is part ofthat.

Kristin Currier (46:19):
Yeah, the discovery.
You might discover somethingawesome.

Joe Natoli (46:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
On the heels of that, do youfeel the same, now that music is
digital and it's so accessiblenow, that you can preview so
much of it on your phone on yourlaptop or your everywhere?
Has any of the mystery orexcitement of that experience
changed for you?
Has it gone out?

Kristin Currier (46:40):
No, I don't think so.
I really have a Spotify accountwhich I love.
And they have a feature, I thinkit's your daily mix or weekly
and you click on that and justsort of taps into everything
you've been listening to and itoffers up new things.
And I'm constantly beingsurprised by something I've
never heard before.
I just love that feature.

Joe Natoli (46:59):
Yup same here.
I mean, I do the same thing.

Kristin Currier (47:03):
I listen to my friends, too, and they tell me
"hey check out this band," I'mlike"all right!"

Joe Natoli (47:07):
Yeah I just feel, like, for my personal opinion is
I feel like people who say"wellthere's no there's no good music
anymore, there's nothing newthere's nothing." Like, are you
KIDDING me?

Kristin Currier (47:15):
SO much good stuff out there.

Joe Natoli (47:17):
It's an incredible, it's an incredible time to be
alive.

Kristin Currier (47:20):
Oh, yeah it is.
It's wonderful.

Joe Natoli (47:21):
And as, you know...
It may feel like we're gettingoff on, on a tangent here but
that is the same as everythingelse we do in terms of user
experience, no matter who we doit for.

Kristin Currier (47:32):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (47:32):
Right?
Part of what we're doing isenabling a connective
experience.
Where the action and reactiondeliver something of sustained
value, of joy, of experience.
Of"yeah, I want that," or"wow, Ididn't know this even existed,"
or"I didn't know this could dothat," or...
right?
I mean it's all the same stuff.

Kristin Currier (47:54):
Yeah.
And it's all fun.
It should be fun, right?

Joe Natoli (47:56):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
It's not fun, why are we doingit?

Kristin Currier (48:00):
Exactly.

Joe Natoli (48:01):
Amen to that.
So we are getting to the closeof our hour.
So now it is time for me to makeyour life difficult.

Kristin Currier (48:10):
All right.
Give it to me.

Joe Natoli (48:13):
These are what I call hot seat questions.
And it's just, you know, meantto give people a little more
insight into you as a person.
So question number one for you,Kristin, is what is a hidden
talent that no one knows youhave?

Kristin Currier (48:34):
Ummm....shoot.

Joe Natoli (48:34):
The clock is ticking.

Kristin Currier (48:36):
OK, so I'm really good at painting houses.

Joe Natoli (48:40):
Yeah?

Kristin Currier (48:41):
Yeah, I spent a summer as a house painter in New
England and I'm really greatwith the paint brush.
Plus I'm an artist.

Joe Natoli (48:47):
OK.
What kind of art?

Kristin Currier (48:49):
I do a lot of scratchboard work, very
detailed, realistic drawings ofheroic women.

Joe Natoli (48:55):
Wow.

Kristin Currier (48:57):
Yeah.
I'm a little OCD, I think all ofus designers are, but I use an
Exacto and I scratch into thisboard and you know, I'm
basically etching into it andmaking it.
I work pretty big too.

Joe Natoli (49:09):
That is awesome.
Is your work online?
Where people can see it?

Kristin Currier (49:13):
Yeah, I've got a Web site, so.

Joe Natoli (49:16):
And that URL is?

Kristin Currier (49:17):
Oh, kristincurrier.com.

Joe Natoli (49:19):
OK.
That is awesome.
I went to school with some folkswho were really into
scratchboard.

Kristin Currier (49:26):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (49:27):
work.
And they did the same way you'redescribing, with an Exacto
knife.
The detail, I've always been inlove with the level of detail
and scratchboard.
I was never really very good atit.
I really wanted to be.

Kristin Currier (49:39):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (49:40):
I'm a pen and ink guy for the most part and
sculpture.
But scratchboard impresses thehell out of me and I totally
love looking at it.
That is very cool.
That is very cool.
What is something that youbelieve about UX, or design— or
anything connected to the workthat you do or have done—

(50:01):
something you believe that a lotof people you encountered don't
agree with?

Kristin Currier (50:07):
Oh that's a tough one.
And I was wondering if you weregoing to ask me that one because
I really can't think ofanything.
I feel...
OK.
So here's a little, I know thisis dipping back into the
controversy of"should designerscode," or whatever, but I do
believe that designers shouldknow a little bit of code.

(50:28):
Maybe they don't have to code,you know, legitimately.
They don't have to be a coder.
But they should know how itworks.
They should know how to speak tothe developers and how to build
a relationship with them.
And it helps to know that.

Joe Natoli (50:42):
Why?

Kristin Currier (50:43):
I think it informs you as a better designer
or you have a designer on theteam.
I do know how to code.
We hired a designer who does notknow how to code.
And she's exceptional.
A lot of the stuff you're seeingon our home page is because of
her.
And the more she works with ourdeveloper and the more she
learns, like, how he does thingsand designing to his grid and
how it's going to look to tabletand mobile.

(51:05):
The more...
The better she becomes as adesigner.
And she doesn't have to know howor what he's doing.
She just has to understand it.

Joe Natoli (51:12):
Right.
How it works.

Kristin Currier (51:13):
Yes, how it works.

Joe Natoli (51:13):
Is it similar to a situation where, okay, if I'm a
print designer, I need tounderstand something about how
ink goes down on paper on aprinting press?

Kristin Currier (51:20):
Exactly.

Joe Natoli (51:21):
Right, if you understand the output, you
understand how to designproperly for it.

Kristin Currier (51:25):
Right.

Joe Natoli (51:25):
And I totally agree with that.
I mean, I've always agreed withthat.
Here's here's one of myfavorites, because it's so hard.
And someone turned it on me onceand I HATED it.
You're on a desert island...

Kristin Currier (51:39):
Oh, here it comes...

Joe Natoli (51:40):
Right??
I love it.
And for reasons that defy thenatural order of things, you
have electricity.
You can either have a movie or apiece of music that you have to
listen to, you know, from nowuntil eternity.

(52:01):
Until you and everything elseturns to dust.
What's it going to be.
Pick a movie or, in your case, apiece of music.

Kristin Currier (52:11):
I thought about this and I decided on Kind of
Blue by Miles Davis.

Joe Natoli (52:19):
Ohhh...

Kristin Currier (52:19):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (52:20):
Can't go wrong.

Kristin Currier (52:20):
You just can't.
It's my go-to every time.
And I didn't like jazz when Iwas younger.
It drove me crazy.
And then someone turned me ononto that album and I've loved
jazz ever since.

Joe Natoli (52:31):
Wow.
Why didn't you like it when youwere younger?
Or...

better question (52:34):
What did you, what were you hearing when you
were younger that turned youoff?

Kristin Currier (52:40):
It's hard to say.
I think it just...
It was too slow or it was justtoo noodly for me.
It was just too advanced, Iguess maybe?
Maybe maybe my ear wasn'tacclimated to it

Joe Natoli (52:54):
Yeah, just weren't ready yet.

Kristin Currier (52:56):
Yeah, it just felt annoying.

Joe Natoli (52:57):
Interesting.
But now you love it, you'resaying.

Kristin Currier (52:59):
I absolutely love it.

Joe Natoli (53:01):
Well, that's a hell of a pick.
I'm staring at it right in frontof me in my office.
I've got a rack that my father,a wooden record rack that my
father built.
And the first three.
It's like three stacked shelves.
Here's what's in front of eachshelf.
At the very top, Miles DavisKind of Blue.

(53:22):
Second is a Love Supreme, JohnColtrane.
The third is John ColtraneStellar Regions, which is a an
exploration into the absolutefar limits of what music can be.

Kristin Currier (53:37):
All great stuff.

Joe Natoli (53:37):
So it's killing me that that was your, that that
was your choice.
And it's right here, it's rightin front of me.

Kristin Currier (53:43):
It's yeah, it's just a beautiful piece of music.
It's just so well-balanced andit just reminds me of what I'd
like to achieve as a designer.
You know, just not trying toohard and just flowing and all
the pieces to the right spots.

Joe Natoli (54:00):
Yeah and I agree with that.
It's, as a recording it's justastoundingly natural.

Kristin Currier (54:05):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (54:06):
It just...it just.
IS...
everything is exactly where it'ssupposed to be.

Kristin Currier (54:10):
Even the negative spaces, that's not a
proper term to use in music, butlike the pauses, those are so
beautiful as well.

Joe Natoli (54:20):
Right.
Amen.
No, I think the parallel thereto design in particular is
massive.

Kristin Currier (54:26):
Yes.

Joe Natoli (54:27):
Awesome.
Awesome choice, awesome choice.
All right.
I'm going to ask you one morequestion, which is also one of
my favorites.
At 49 now— being this far alongin your career, having had lots
of experience, lots of good,lots of bad, lots of otherwise
I'm sure— if you could give youryounger self, just starting out

(54:49):
in your career, ONE piece ofadvice, what would it be?

Kristin Currier (54:55):
Oh boy.
Piece of advice.
That is a tough one.

Joe Natoli (55:01):
Yeah, it is.
I don't know, you know,Kristin...
20 years ago.

Kristin Currier (55:05):
I work with a lot of people who are 20 years
younger than me right now.
I'm probably the oldest one onthe team and if I could give
them any advice...

Joe Natoli (55:11):
There you go.

Kristin Currier (55:12):
And they're brilliant.
These are some of thosebrilliant people I've ever
worked with.
Change.
Get comfortable with it.
It's going to happen.
You know, be willing to listento people.
Talk outside of your scope, youknow.
Get outside of your bubble andtalk to other people.
If you don't like how somethingis working, you don't understand
why somebody is doing something,go and ask questions.

(55:35):
Don't just assume.

Joe Natoli (55:36):
Do you think that, do you think that kind of thing
is universal and related to age?

Kristin Currier (55:42):
Yeah, I think it goes both ways.

Joe Natoli (55:44):
I could see that.

Kristin Currier (55:45):
Yeah absolutely.
Everyone is guilty of doing it.
We're human.

Joe Natoli (55:49):
Yeah.
Yeah, and it sort of seems like,I always wonder what it is that
everybody has to go through thatprocess for themselves.
Before they, before they sort ofget it.
I don't know what that is.
We can't, we can't just take theadvice when it's given.
You know?
I don't know why that is.

Kristin Currier (56:04):
I thought about it and I think people just get
used to how they want to beright.
And they want to be in control.
And they also don't want to lookbad if they're wrong.
You know, so that sort of setsyou up to keep you in your
bubble.
You've got to be a little...
you have to be willing to breakoutside of that, be willing to

(56:27):
be wrong, be willing to look alittle messy.

Joe Natoli (56:30):
Amen to that.
And on that note I think we'regoing to call it.

Kristin Currier (56:36):
Alright!

Joe Natoli (56:36):
Because it doesn't get any better than that.
Seriously, I think it's anexcellent piece of advice.
It's something that a lot ofpeople spend the majority of
their lives trying to get to.

Kristin Currier (56:46):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (56:47):
And it's a worthy battle.
It's a worthy climb.

Kristin Currier (56:50):
It's courageous, really, when you
dare yourself to do it.

Joe Natoli (56:54):
Yeah, absolutely.

Kristin Currier (56:55):
Yeah.

Joe Natoli (56:56):
Kristin, I cannot thank you enough for your time
today.
This was wonderful.

Kristin Currier (57:00):
Thank you so much for everything you do for
all of us.

Joe Natoli (57:02):
I appreciate that.
You are very welcome, andunderstand that I learn as much
from all of you as you learnfrom me...
And probably more.

Kristin Currier (57:10):
Thank you.

Joe Natoli (57:11):
All right.
Have a great rest of the day.
Have an awesome weekend.

Kristin Currier (57:14):
All right!

Joe Natoli (57:14):
And go forward confidently.

Kristin Currier (57:16):
Thank you, Joe.

Joe Natoli (57:17):
All right Kristin, take care.

Kristin Currier (57:18):
Bye

Joe Natoli (57:19):
Bye.

Speaker 1 (57:49):
That wraps up this edition of Making UX Work.
Thanks for listening, and I hopehearing these stories provide
some useful perspective andencouragement— along with a
reminder that you're not aloneout there.
Before I go, I want you to knowthat you can find show notes and
links to the things mentionedduring our conversation by
visiting givegoodux.com/podcast.
You'll also find links to moreUX resources on the web and
social media along with ways tocontact me if you're interested
in sharing your own story here.
Until next time this is JoeNatoli, reminding you that it's
people like you who make UXwork.