June 2, 2025 • 35 mins
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🎙️ FULL SHOW NOTES
https://www.microsoftinnovationpodcast.com/693
What happens when two Microsoft experts from different corners of Europe come together to bridge the gap between DevOps and low-code development? In this episode, Jozsef Vadkerti and Uros Kastelic share the story behind their new book, Mastering DevOps on Power Platform. From real-world enterprise challenges to the evolving role of AI and Copilot Studio, they unpack how professionals can bring rigor, governance, and agility to low-code environments—without sacrificing speed or innovation.
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🔑KEY TAKEAWAYS
DevOps Meets Low-Code: The Power Platform isn’t just for citizen developers. Jozsef and Uros explain how DevOps principles—like CI/CD pipelines and ALM—can and should be applied to low-code environments for enterprise-grade scalability and governance.
A Book Born from the Field: Their book, Mastering DevOps on Power Platform, was inspired by real customer needs and gaps in understanding. It’s a hands-on, GitHub-backed guide that takes readers from foundational concepts to advanced DevSecOps practices.
Copilot Studio in the ALM Ecosystem: As Copilot Studio evolves, it’s becoming a key player in enterprise AI strategy. The duo discusses how to manage Copilot agents with the same rigor as apps and workflows—integrating governance, security, and deployment pipelines.
AI as a Daily Companion: From helping with kids’ homework to accelerating demo creation, both guests use AI tools like GitHub Copilot and Copilot Studio to streamline their personal and professional lives.
Writing a Tech Book While Parenting: Balancing full-time roles, family life, and authorship, Jozsef and Uros reflect on the discipline and clarity that writing brought to their thinking—and how it helped them better communicate complex ideas to business audiences.Â
🧰RESOURCES MENTIONED
👉 Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Mastering-DevOps-Microsoft-Power-Platform-ebook/dp/B0D9W762VHÂ
👉 Packt: https://www.packtpub.com/en-us/product/mastering-devops-on-microsoft-power-platform-9781835880845
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Thanks for listening 🚀 - Mark Smith
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mark Smith (00:01):
Welcome to the Copilot Show, where I interview
Microsoft staff innovating withAI.
I hope you will find thispodcast educational and inspire
you to do more with this greattechnology.
Now let's get on with the show.
In this episode, we'll befocusing on Microsoft DevOps
with the Power Platform,generative AI Tools and Co-Pilot
(00:24):
Studio.
Today's guests are fromSlovenia and Hungary.
They both work at Microsoft Inthe low-code space.
You can find links to their bioand social media in the show
notes for this episode.
Welcome to the show, Jozsef andUros.
Thank you for having us Now.
I probably butchered your name,so I'm going to get you to
individually.
(00:44):
Actually, I know I totally.
I got your name wrong, Jozsef,right, so do you want to
introduce yourself first andwhat part of the world you're in
and how long you've been atMicrosoft?
Jozsef Vadkerti (00:55):
Okay, let's jump in.
So the right pronunciation isJozsef, and I've been working at
Microsoft for more than 10years and literally I spent
already 20 years in the softwareindustry in many, many
different roles.
So it's my latest and greatestnow is technical specialist for
digital natives.
I just recently made a switchfrom my previous role, but
(01:17):
literally I spent almost everycorner in the sales organization
very technical ones and verysales-oriented ones.
It really depends on thatparticular area.
A few things about me I havethree sons five, eight and
ten-year-old ones.
So I mean you can imagine howmuch energy I need to manage
(01:37):
them.
So I literally spend my sparetime to play with them very
often.
My hobby, just to mention hereI'm a passionate runner.
Every day, every morning,whatever condition, weather
condition, even in winter, insnow, I will go to a run before
sitting in front of my laptopand start working on that
(01:58):
particular day.
It's a passion, it's more thanjust a.
It's a passion.
What else?
I don't have any special one,but I it's, like you know, it's
a passion, it's more than just a.
Yeah, it's a passion.
And yeah, water, yeah.
So I mean that's.
I don't have any special one,but I really like the seafood in
every kind of format, you know,because Hungary is as right now
, it has no seaside, so it'sreally, I really like to.
Mark Smith (02:20):
You know there's big lobsters, or things like that,
can you not fish in?
Jozsef Vadkerti (02:26):
your river, don't you have a big river that
runs through hungary?
Yeah, we have rivers, but youknow it's not the normal seafood
.
Mark Smith (02:29):
I really just seafood valid valid, valid yours
all right.
Uros Kastelic (02:35):
So, yeah, my name is Uros Kastelic, again a
little bit challenging topronounce, but I've been many
things throughout my, let's say,career.
One time I've been called eurolike a currency, but that's also
fine, you know like it's justimportant that people try and
care and and they, you know likethrough time they learn of
course.
So I don't mind that, as longas you know like they come to me
(02:59):
and of course they talk to me,that's valid, that's what
matters, right?
So my name is, yes, I've beenfrom slovenia, as you mentioned,
and coincidentally, I also havethree kids, two daughters and
one son.
You know, two daughters are theoldest ones, let's say, and I
was like, okay, let's go for thethird one, let's see what's
gonna happen.
If I really want a son, if it'sgonna be a son, great, if not,
(03:19):
it's also great.
But you know, let's try for ason and at the end we manage it.
So actually, there's a funnystory behind this book and the
kids I'll talk a little bitabout later, about this one, how
we started writing this book.
But coming back to what youmentioned, you know, like food,
fun, these things, right, I'malso, you know like I love food.
I'm an occasional home chef,let's say like this, not
(03:42):
professional at all I'm tryingto make some different dishes of
you know, like what I taste inforeign countries when I do like
private or business travels.
And actually I was just todaytrying to perfect onion cutting
before this show I cut my finger, so I still have a long way to
go, but now it's fine, it's justa little bit.
So I still have a long way togo, but yeah, just just, you
(04:04):
know, like doing things thatbasically put some light in your
day after the long day of workand the stress and everything
like that, so de-stress.
So cooking is something thatde-stresses me as well.
And apart from that, yeah, withthree kids, there's a lot of
activities going on, right.
So what I do like is, duringthe weekend, spending time with
(04:26):
them as much as I can.
I've been traveling a lotduring the first year at
Microsoft, so, you know, afterCOVID, during COVID and after
COVID, I'm just, you know,trying to spend as much time
with them.
You know they're early ages, sothis is the most important time
of their lives, I guess.
And, yeah, trying to make thesevaluable memories together with
(04:48):
them, right.
So we do a lot of hiking,cycling, these things, right
what's the best things to do inyour respective countries.
Mark Smith (04:54):
If I was going to visit your countries, what's the
one place in your mind thatyou'd go?
You've got to go here.
Jozsef Vadkerti (05:00):
You've got to see this in hungary, I would say
that you need to see the LakeBalaton, one of the largest
lakes in Central and even inalmost the entire Europe, so it
makes sense to go there.
You can sail there and alsomany, many strands.
It's a pretty big area forsummertime and, of course, you
(05:21):
need to have a look at all ofour buildings and sightseeing
opportunities in budapest,lovely country.
I don't know whether you haveseen, but the recent movies many
, many recent movies are justproduced here, so occasionally I
mean a few months ago, therewere a couple of very famous
actors alongside the denube andyou could just meet with them.
(05:42):
It's accidental, so it was.
It's crazy that how hollywoodconsiders now budapest as a
location for film production, soit's unbelievable.
So these are the two thingsthat you nice just makes.
Really, if you come here, thenjust discover it, because it
makes sense I've done the secondone.
Mark Smith (06:02):
I've been on the danube, I've been into budapest
and, yeah, my wife and I had alovely, lovely time there.
I like the saunas as well, thebath houses very nice.
But yeah, beautiful city,beautiful city, slovenia.
How about slovenia?
What's the highlights there?
Uros Kastelic (06:19):
yeah.
So slovenia is relatively small, very beautiful country, green,
you know, mountains, lakes,rivers and a little bit of the
sea as well.
So if you have just one day,obviously the most touristic
place I can think of right nowwould be Lake Bled, which is
like a nice lake, a glacier lake, with island somewhere in the
(06:40):
middle with a church on top.
So you can take a boat go thereand, you know, just walk around
a little bit.
But, as I said before, you know, like Slovenia being relatively
small country, actually thereare, you know, like more
adventurous people that do liketraverse from you know like
mountains to the sea in one dayor things like that.
So, whatever you like, right,we have basically everything.
(07:02):
It's a beautiful, small countrywith plenty of varieties that
you can taste and try.
Mark Smith (07:07):
I like it.
So one of the things I want tofocus on today is this book that
you have written.
So tell us first of all, whatis the book, what's the subject
that it focuses on and how didit come about.
Jozsef Vadkerti (07:18):
Okay, I'll take it.
The book is about DevOps andhardware platforms, so these are
two particular orthogonaltopics and if you speak with
developers don't you understandwhat Power Platform is.
And if you talk with peoplefrom the BizOps solution area,
then they don't reallyunderstand what DevOps is.
And we have decided after thefirst contact with the publisher
(07:44):
PACT the publishing companyPACT that it really makes sense
to start discovering this areaand to write down the things
that we have seen with ourcustomers and we have already
experienced with our enterprisecustomers and how they manage
those environments and how wecan combine DevOps in the
(08:05):
low-code, no-code area.
So that was the British writerand the book itself is.
The title of the book is theMastering DevOps on Power
Platform and, if I've alreadyseen, uros has a copy in his
hand.
Mark Smith (08:17):
Excellent, excellent .
Now I'm surprised thatMicrosoft folks like yourself
wrote this book, right?
Because it's not necessarilyabout moving licenses or moving,
you know, selling the powerplatform proceeds, that type of
thing.
How much in your day-to-dayrole in engaging with customers
does this whole subject ofDevOps come up?
(08:38):
And you know, when you'reselling, obviously to a
technical stakeholder, it'sextremely important, right?
Because sometimes there's aconsideration that, because it's
extremely important, right?
Because sometimes there's aconsideration that because it's
low code, oh, there's no kind ofrigor, there's no technical
rigor in the work that is done.
So how important does thediscussion around devops really
help position the platformcorrectly in the customer's mind
(09:00):
?
Uros Kastelic (09:01):
yeah, if I'm jumping into this one a little
bit right.
So first of all, with yorjaf,we let's say, same roles as a
specialist for low-code, tryingto position and for sale Power
Platform licenses to the clientsin order for them to basically
build up the applications,bizapps, applications on Power
Platform, automate workflows andso on.
(09:22):
But we worked in two different,let's say, areas within our
European, let's say, area calledthe Central Eastern and Middle
Eastern Africa.
I was working actually more forthe Southeast countries and he
was working in Central EuropeEuropean countries.
So I'll share my view of whatI've experienced with my clients
(09:46):
and, of course, yours, if youcan with yours, but I think it
will align right.
So, basically, what I've comeacross with is that the clients
who start with Power Platform,usually you have like two
different set of clients Onethat basically jump directly to
you know, like trying to perfecteverything.
You know usually there'ssomeone from maybe an IT or
(10:06):
someone technical that islooking into this and saying,
all right, let's get it off andget it right, right, and they
start looking into things fromthe beginning around the
governance, setting up thegovernance and so on, and
somehow they come across this,you know, like application
lifecycle management.
We've mentioned it somewhere inour documentation, but no one
was really focusing on it, right?
(10:26):
So they hear about it or theyread about it, but they don't
really go deep on this one,right?
So during the workshops that wehave or during the conversation
with the clients that we havearound, you know, like center of
excellence and governance also,one topic that comes up is
application lifecycle management.
Right, and they usually put itaside Somewhere.
(10:47):
After we do the security, we dothe governance thing and we
make sure that everything islocked, we will then take care
of the ALM as well.
Right?
So that's one part of theclient.
The other part of the client islet's just start with Power
Platform, let's try to buildwhat we can and we'll do that.
Right, and they don't evenbother around.
You know, the governance andthe power, application, obstacle
(11:07):
management, the DevOps and soon.
So our idea of this book isactually to help both worlds
come together and understand theimportance of doing this, and
we talk about all thesedifferent approaches like
managed pipelines.
We talk about, you know, likemore professional approach with
the DevOps, where we basicallyalign with the clients.
(11:28):
Is that, of course, when youstart doing this, you need to
somehow start doing this in themanaged way.
So, if you start building theapps, you know, sooner or later
you will have to do this in amanaged way.
So we start talking about, forexample, the managed
environments and sooner or laterwe come to, of course,
solutions, of course, and how tobasically use those solutions
(11:52):
to start building and deployingsolutions in a managed way.
Right, and then this is where webasically position the DevOps,
and every customer client thatwe talk to understands this, but
they are on a different journey.
You know we are all aware ofthe Power Platform, adoption
maturity level or model where wecan position a client on this.
(12:15):
You know, like XY chart, wherethey are positioned based on the
adoption maturity level.
Right, and with all the clients, we have to do this.
We have to assess and analyzewhere they are and how to
improve their maturity levelwith the Power Platform as well.
So application lifecyclemanagement is one dot that we
can put somewhere on thatmaturity level graph and we have
(12:38):
to somehow help them improve it.
Right To understand that.
Yes, you know, alm DevOps isone of the important things
there and if you want to do thisright, if you want to basically
tackle this properly.
It should be there as well, sothis book tries to address this
concern right, and is it astep-by-step manual on how to do
(12:59):
it?
Mark Smith (12:59):
So if I, you know, let's say I had a level 200
understanding of DevOps, ofpipelines, of GitHub, things
like that, will this take me tolike a 400 level?
Will this give me the hey?
What's your view on that?
Jozsef Vadkerti (13:16):
Yeah, I mean we have created not just a
step-by-step guide so it's not,like you know, follow our
guidance and based on that, youcreate this particular
environment, but we have alsoprovided appropriate GitHub
repositories on the host.
So it's not just, like you know, clicking, but also you can try
it out and it brings you tolevel 400.
So, if I remember back, I spentliterally one chapter
(13:38):
discovering the DevSecOpscapabilities of GitHub and I
went down things like you knowhow you can utilize CodeQL to
check your extensions based onthose definitions that GitHub
Advanced Security brings to you.
So it's, you know it's not justa very simple way to do, but we
try to go as deep down aspossible and we have also
(14:01):
utilized some MVPs around theworld to check our chapters and
check out and go through ourguidelines and descriptions, how
to realize those things intheir own tenants and in their
own repositories.
So I feel it is pretty deepexperience.
And back to your question.
So what I've experienced andthis is what I really like
(14:23):
nowadays to experience that themore mature the enterprise is,
the more eager to learn aboutDevOps and it's an immediate
question Okay, what about DevOps?
Do you have CICD pipelines here?
I was just really excited when Ifirst heard these questions,
let's say one year ago, and atthat time I already knew that we
(14:46):
are on the right track, or wewere on the right track, to
write this book, because it'ssomething that was really
missing from the market.
And sure we have these managedpipelines and sure our global
group has also realized thatit's part of the offering, and
sure our product group has alsorealized that it's part of the
offering.
But if you have a largeenterprise and we are talking
about enterprises havinghundreds of thousands of
(15:09):
employees and when you havehundreds of thousands of
employees having, I don't know,hundreds or 200s or even more
mission-critical applications,then it's not a question that
you need to do one step back andyou need to utilize the real
DevOps capabilities that, likethat or which DevOps tools
modern DevOps tools can offeryou, among others, security as
(15:32):
well.
So that was a very warmsurprise for me.
That customer asked aboutDevOps.
Uros Kastelic (15:40):
And maybe just one thing to add here.
You know, like many times whenI'm talking with the here, you
know, like many times when I'mtalking with the clients, you
know they think of PowerPlatform being just this
low-code, no-code solution,right, and they forget that we
have this possibility of aflexible platform, of extending
throughout.
Also, you know, professionaldeveloper tools like asia DevOps
(16:03):
and github also is right, so itgives the customers or
basically, you know, likeorganizations this option of
being flexible.
If you want to go with themanaged pipelines, go ahead, use
that so that you basicallycover the the needs of the ALM.
But if you want to go, you know, all in and do more things and
(16:24):
also incorporate these to, let'ssay, your project management
needs, that you're currentlydoing with Azure, devops, you
know, for example, azure Boards,for example, or GitHub, you can
do that as well, right, andthat's the beauty of the Power
Platform.
Mark Smith (16:39):
Yeah, very flexible.
How much did you work with theproduct team in developing the
book?
In other words, did you have toget additional insights from
them, even perhaps where roadmapwas going?
One of the challenges with thebook is that once you've written
it in the tech space, it startsto become obsolete because new
features come out.
(17:00):
Things change, so how do youanswer that?
Uros Kastelic (17:03):
That was funny, actually one of their first
comment, you know, like why thebook, if it's going to be
obsolete, even you know from themoment you launch it.
But joseph has a nice story ofhe was basically engaged with a
couple of, let's say, folks fromthe product team.
So maybe, joseph, you canrespond to that.
Jozsef Vadkerti (17:19):
yeah, I just tried to recall, I mean that,
what occasion it was, because wehave a tour of how it was,
something like a power platform,I mean one and half years ago.
But long story short, the vp ofpower apps, ryan cunningham,
has visited also hungary and Ihave the opportunity to go to
dinner with him after theone-day workshop and delivering
(17:41):
everything that we have planned.
And you know, I've justmentioned during the dinner that
we are planning to write a bookabout DevOps and the Power
Platform and how these twoparticular disciplines can be
combined together.
And he said that, oh, that'sgreat, that's fantastic that we
are going to do something likethat.
And he immediately offered hishelp.
(18:03):
And after we have discussed,together with Uros, the next
step, I reached out to him thatlook, okay, we will write
something, but we want to writesomething about up-to-date,
relevant and somehow preserve itfor the future.
And we could organize severalcalls with the PowerPlot
architecture teams, so the onesyou know at that particular
(18:24):
partner level working for PowerPlatform could give us insights,
of course, under NDA, that whatis planning.
And we have considered allthese things right in the book
to reach this particularrelevance and keep the relevance
of the book and the content ofthe book.
It was a fantastic experiencethat I know of VPs to reach this
particular relevance and keepthe relevance of the book and
the content of the book.
Yeah, it was a fantasticexperience that I know VPs.
(18:47):
I can reach out to them, I canchat with them.
So I mean I could reach out toRyan Perchette and of course, he
has answers.
So different mindset how theseguys consider the product and
also the sales and field peopleto win new and new customers and
win new and new customers andwin new and new solutions on the
platform itself so, yeah, andof course, ryan has so much
(19:08):
history and legacy, being thathe really owned, yeah cds, a
dataverse right with it.
Mark Smith (19:14):
He was the lead on that when it came to market for
the power platform.
So he incredibly knowledgeableguy, great guy, tell me about.
Now that we've moved into aworld of co-pilot and
organizations are looking at howco-pilot studio governance
comes into play, and one of thethings that I was, you know,
just in the tail end of lastyear working with some internal
(19:37):
teams at Microsoft and thisquestion of co-pilot governance
came up.
And where does that sit in theecosystem of understanding
levers, what tools, what'savailable from a governance
perspective and therefore, howdoes that fit into an ALM story
(19:57):
as well, and how clients shouldbe thinking of AI in a low-code
context, but also with thatrigor in place, what are you
seeing?
Uros Kastelic (20:08):
So, when it comes to the Copilot Studio, there's
just one additional service inthe Power Platform.
That is basically when lookingat the DevOps and application
lifecycle management, done inthe same way as Power Apps or
Power Automate.
It's going to be packed intothe solutions right Now and once
you have something in asolution, then you apply
(20:30):
basically similar mechanism asbefore mentioned.
Right, for all the services.
When the Copilot Studiobasically actually Copilot
Studio is a relatively new nameright?
We know Copilot Studio alreadyfrom the Power Virtual Agents
from before.
Right, and we had to tacklethis ALM, let's say, challenge
already in the past.
(20:51):
Right, so we've done it thisway With Copilot Studio.
Recently we've got some nicenew looking features like, for
example, allowing us to dotemplates, which significantly
helps organizations to deploynew agents through templates,
you know, for various differentscenarios, industry specific
cases and so on.
(21:11):
But when concerning, you know,the DevOps approach, that's
something that we do in the sameway.
However, when looking at theco-pilots and the agents, as you
said, we have to look at moreholistically because one thing
is utilizing the GPT orbasically the LLM that is,
inside the tool itself, but onething is many times we see that
(21:34):
the customers would like toexpand their footprint.
They might go with Azure andthey want to, for example,
leverage LLMs or different,basically, models that are
available there, right?
So we have to look holisticallyat how to manage the entire,
let's say, project of buildingthis kind of agents, right?
And then you know, like evenbroader actually, when it comes
(21:58):
to this, you know, like agentsusually connect to some backend
services, like throughconnectors, and so actually it's
not just an agent within theCopilot Studio, it's actually
the full-blown project thatwe're looking at and we need to
basically find a way how tomanage all of that.
So one is, of course, buildingthe UI through Copilot Studio,
but then next to it is are weleveraging the same LLM that is
(22:21):
built inside or are we goingabove and beyond with Azure?
How to deploy that?
If we package everything, we'regoing to deploy it to Teams or
Microsoft 365.
Through which channels are wegoing to deploy this?
Right?
So there's a lot of things thatwe need to address.
We try to cover some of thesethings also in the book, but of
course, copilot Studio israpidly evolving these days,
(22:43):
right.
So there are new things cominginto, models are changing and
yeah, maybe you know, like now,jozef, you being, you know, like
part of this different team,let's say, of digital natives,
maybe you can share somethingaround.
You know, the Azure LLM, oryour view on this one.
Jozsef Vadkerti (22:59):
Yeah, I mean that really just adds to what's
so foolish that you know, sinceCopa is still part of the Power
Platform, what we have writtenin the book you can utilize it
as much as you want and notmentioning the fact that one of
the greatest securityenhancements no-transcript
(23:39):
integration scenario utilizingthe underlying Azure as well,
and you know it's a very simpleway.
You can create a customconnector that leverages an
Azure API management servicethat calls out to your favorite
large language model or thelarge language model that you
have fine-tuned, and imaginethat the power of this thing
(24:00):
that you can use DeepSeq in yourchatbot that is secured on
Azure, running on AzureEnterprise Environment.
There is no data collection anddata filtering and utilizing
for the training or retrainingof the Deep Sleeper.
Still, you can use the DeepSleep model if you want, and
many more, as many as availableright now in our model catalog,
(24:23):
and it's more like 1,400, 1,500different models.
So it's unbelievable.
And not mentioning the factthat right now, because I work
with digital natives in theemail organizations it's a large
organizations but they want tospeed these digital natives want
to reach these particular largelanguage model capabilities as
(24:46):
fast as possible, notnecessarily directly built into
the product, but imagine thatyou have a product, you have
something that you try to sellday by day, but you need to
manage the support team.
You need to manage your salesteam.
You need to utilize even theautonomous agents.
These are the things that evenhardcore developers now want to
(25:07):
understand what you can do withthe help of Copilot Studio,
because you know, everybody canwrite a large-language
visual-based chatbot or even anautonomous agent.
Because you know, everybody canwrite a large-language
visual-based chatbot or even anautonomous agent.
It's only a question of time.
It takes two weeks, or, for me,last time during an AI tour, I
created an autonomous agent inless than 20 minutes and it was
about a refund agent.
(25:27):
Assuming that you have ane-commerce platform, you sell
laptops, and I've created anautonomous agent that can manage
customers' claim and refundrequests based on the policy
that was provided by thatparticular e-commerce company.
Imagine that and thisparticular speed is very, very
relevant for these advancedcustomers.
(25:48):
I would say and to compare toeveryone's additional
information as background we hadpreviously so, when it was only
the Power Virtual Agents, therewere only 20 engineers working
on the product.
Right now, there are 500engineers working on the same
product and we see thisparticular, developer velocity
day by day, because new and newfeatures are being released
(26:10):
almost every day, but at leastonce in a week.
So that's the power behind this, and you know many, many more
in governance capabilities.
I will just also put some noteshere that we should.
We can talk about the dataprotection policies.
They are there.
We can talk about the graphconnector integration.
So if I consider the platformfrom M365 to graph connectors,
(26:34):
it's not just about access orconsiders your access level to
most of the data sources thatyou can add through
GraphConnector.
We have you know under the hoodand Copilot Studio can even
raise your attention that theinformation that was provided is
classified as confidential orhighly confidential.
(26:57):
And these are the things thatyou can do, of course, from
scratch, but imagine that howmuch time you need to spend on
it and how much effort you needto invest to reach that level of
complexity and capability ofthe Copilot Studio.
So I'm a super fan of theCopilot Studio, whatever I'm
doing in Azure or in PowerPlator Dynamics or M565, because I
(27:20):
think that a Copilot Studioagent, or the entire idea around
the autonomous agent, isbrilliant.
And the next future I mean thenext step in the future is, like
you know, the dark factoriesthat we have.
We have autonomous factoriesworking in the dark, without
electricity, without lightning,because the robots don't need
lights to do their job rightthis is the same level of
(27:44):
inspiration that I get from the-.
Mark Smith (27:46):
I love that.
As we go to wrap up, how do youpersonally use AI so not
selling to a customer, or youmight use it as part of your
selling process to a customerbut how are you personally
integrating AI into your life?
Uros Kastelic (28:01):
That's a big one Actually, every day more or less
, like, for example, you know,like even mentioning the kids in
the beginning, right Even whenwe have to work together on some
.
You know like homeworks withkids.
You know I come to it, you knowI ask, you know, oh, I forgot.
You know like homeworks withkids, you know I come to it.
You know I ask, you know, oh, Iforgot.
You know, like how to do this.
(28:21):
You know, like, please remindme of this school lesson that I
had, like you know, many yearsago and how to do that.
But that's just one you knowexample.
The other thing is, you know,in sales we use a lot generative
AI, like understanding theclients, understanding the
potential.
You know leads, opportunities,how to evolve that.
So that's part of you know,like the sales cycle.
Also, you know, like fromprivate life, using it for you
(28:44):
know giving suggestions around.
You know, like, where to go,what to do, what kind of ideas
could we have around.
You know, maybe, someactivities.
The one thing that you know manypeople ask me is have you used
Copilot to write the book?
Right, because it was actually.
You know generative AI wasavailable at that time.
Right, and the thing is and wecan I think Joseph will agree
(29:07):
with me you know like, althoughgenerative AI, at least at that
time you know, was, let's say,in a sense, already available,
time you know was, let's say, ina sense, already available,
giving you the ideas of writing,potentially, some chapters and
so on.
It's not something that you canreally rely on especially.
You know, like, when you'rewriting a book, it's really your
own thoughts yes, you have toput your own thoughts in all of
(29:29):
this and actually what I foundis, at the end of the day, when
I started putting my experience,my thoughts, into the book, I
was actually doing it muchfaster than relying on any other
tools to help me with that.
It's a completely differentthing.
So, definitely, generative AIhas a lot of potential, but
that's also as the name suggests.
(29:49):
It's just a co-pilot right now.
It's a co-pilot right now.
Right, it's something that itwill help you do things, but
it's still on you to basicallylook into that, understand where
you want to go, validate what'sthe output and basically either
go with it or just ditch itright.
So, yeah, that's how I use it.
Jozsef Vadkerti (30:07):
Jozef, maybe you yeah, you told everything.
So when I use it, imagine thattypical sales scenarios where
you get a public sector tenderwritten in any language besides
English.
So when you get such aspecification roughly 200 pages
then I use Copilot even agentsto understand the content and
(30:31):
understand and find the key orcriteria in a certain area.
So it's very, very powerful,very helpful.
But on the other side, in theagentic world, I can already
imagine an agent managing my sonyear five, many, many homeworks
.
Of course he says all the timeno, I'm fine, I've already done
(30:53):
my homework.
But imagine that if I had anout-of-house agent that would
double-check these statementsand also ask for proof of
delivery.
Like you know, providing apicture and have a look at it.
Just take a picture of yourhomework and let my agent check
the outcome whether you havereally died so unbelievable.
But yeah we use it day by dayand it's part of our work to
(31:17):
ease our time that we invest toour customers.
Uros Kastelic (31:21):
It's so good.
It's just one last thing maybea GitHub co-pilot, right, for
you know, we, as you know, like,even though that we are, you
know, sellers, we still do somehands-on work.
You know, we still maybe youknow, we still maybe you know
like prepare demos and thingslike that, and I often find
myself, you know, maybe, fromtoday I get the task that
tomorrow I need to presentsomething to a client and you
(31:44):
know, I know what I want to doand I want to do it maybe you
know like focused or tailoredfor their industry or something
like that.
So I just go to github copilot,say, you know like, okay, I
need this app.
I want to, you know like, buildan app that is more.
You know like, uh, specific tomaybe a website for the
financial industry, like a bankor something like that.
I get the help from the githubcopilot to build a template
(32:07):
around this and then on top ofthat, I add, for example,
copilot studio with an agent, sothat I basically can
demonstrate the capabilities ofa co-pilot studio on the
external website, like anexternal agent or this kind of a
chatbot experience that we usedto have, things like that.
So prototyping prototyping isalso a nice way where Jenna can
help.
Mark Smith (32:28):
I love it.
Josef Joris, thank you so muchfor coming on the show.
It's been interesting.
I actually wanted to drill intothe art of writing a book in a
lot more detail.
I've actually just beencontracted to write one for
Microsoft Press myself, and soI've got three months to output
a book on co-pilot adoption, andso it's an exciting time.
(32:52):
But it's my first time writinga book and of course there's a
lot of work right, there's a lotof work in writing it.
Uros Kastelic (33:02):
Yeah, I remember myself once, you know, because
you still have to do your dailyjob, you still have to take care
of the kids, and then duringthe night, you start writing.
I remember myself, you know,like at one point I realized it
was like 3 o'clock or 4 o'clockin the morning and I was like
woke up myself behind the laptop, you know like, with my
keyboard, with my hands on thekeyboard, like pressing the
(33:25):
letter Z or something in theWord document.
It was horrible actually, butyou do it because you see the
future like it's a positivefuture ahead.
Right it, because you see thefuture it's a positive future
ahead and you see this end goaland you want to achieve it.
And of course, you juststruggle through this, and of
course it's not a struggle.
It gives a lot of benefits aswell, personally as well.
(33:48):
So you achieve another task.
Good luck to you, mark.
Jozsef Vadkerti (33:52):
Thank you, good luck.
It simplifies your life I meannot your life but your thoughts
Because the book helped me a lotto write down in a very simple
way how very complex things work, and after that it was much
easier to talk with businessfolks as well.
(34:15):
Look, okay, we use many, manyabbreviations, we use many, many
terms and we also all the timechange the name, but the reality
and the real use case behindthis capability is that and that
and I've learned this from thebook really to articulate those
thoughts in a very simple butvery, you know, get the point
(34:39):
way.
Mark Smith (34:39):
Thanks, guys.
Thanks, Mark, for having us.
Thank you, hey.
Thanks for listening.
I'm your host, Mark Smith,otherwise known as the NZ365 guy
.
Is there a guest you would liketo see on the show from
Microsoft?
Please message me on LinkedInand I'll see what I can do.
Final question for you how willyou create with Copilot today,
Ka kite?
Welcome to the Copilot Show, where I interview
Microsoft staff innovating withAI.
I hope you will find thispodcast educational and inspire
you to do more with this greattechnology.
Now let's get on with the show.
In this episode, we'll befocusing on Microsoft DevOps
with the Power Platform,generative AI Tools and Co-Pilot
(00:24):
Studio.
Today's guests are fromSlovenia and Hungary.
They both work at Microsoft Inthe low-code space.
You can find links to their bioand social media in the show
notes for this episode.
Welcome to the show, Jozsef andUros.
Thank you for having us Now.
I probably butchered your name,so I'm going to get you to
individually.
(00:44):
Actually, I know I totally.
I got your name wrong, Jozsef,right, so do you want to
introduce yourself first andwhat part of the world you're in
and how long you've been atMicrosoft?
Jozsef Vadkerti (00:55):
Okay, let's jump in.
So the right pronunciation isJozsef, and I've been working at
Microsoft for more than 10years and literally I spent
already 20 years in the softwareindustry in many, many
different roles.
So it's my latest and greatestnow is technical specialist for
digital natives.
I just recently made a switchfrom my previous role, but
(01:17):
literally I spent almost everycorner in the sales organization
very technical ones and verysales-oriented ones.
It really depends on thatparticular area.
A few things about me I havethree sons five, eight and
ten-year-old ones.
So I mean you can imagine howmuch energy I need to manage
(01:37):
them.
So I literally spend my sparetime to play with them very
often.
My hobby, just to mention hereI'm a passionate runner.
Every day, every morning,whatever condition, weather
condition, even in winter, insnow, I will go to a run before
sitting in front of my laptopand start working on that
(01:58):
particular day.
It's a passion, it's more thanjust a.
It's a passion.
What else?
I don't have any special one,but I it's, like you know, it's
a passion, it's more than just a.
Yeah, it's a passion.
And yeah, water, yeah.
So I mean that's.
I don't have any special one,but I really like the seafood in
every kind of format, you know,because Hungary is as right now
, it has no seaside, so it'sreally, I really like to.
Mark Smith (02:20):
You know there's big lobsters, or things like that,
can you not fish in?
Jozsef Vadkerti (02:26):
your river, don't you have a big river that
runs through hungary?
Yeah, we have rivers, but youknow it's not the normal seafood
.
Mark Smith (02:29):
I really just seafood valid valid, valid yours
all right.
Uros Kastelic (02:35):
So, yeah, my name is Uros Kastelic, again a
little bit challenging topronounce, but I've been many
things throughout my, let's say,career.
One time I've been called eurolike a currency, but that's also
fine, you know like it's justimportant that people try and
care and and they, you know likethrough time they learn of
course.
So I don't mind that, as longas you know like they come to me
(02:59):
and of course they talk to me,that's valid, that's what
matters, right?
So my name is, yes, I've beenfrom slovenia, as you mentioned,
and coincidentally, I also havethree kids, two daughters and
one son.
You know, two daughters are theoldest ones, let's say, and I
was like, okay, let's go for thethird one, let's see what's
gonna happen.
If I really want a son, if it'sgonna be a son, great, if not,
(03:19):
it's also great.
But you know, let's try for ason and at the end we manage it.
So actually, there's a funnystory behind this book and the
kids I'll talk a little bitabout later, about this one, how
we started writing this book.
But coming back to what youmentioned, you know, like food,
fun, these things, right, I'malso, you know like I love food.
I'm an occasional home chef,let's say like this, not
(03:42):
professional at all I'm tryingto make some different dishes of
you know, like what I taste inforeign countries when I do like
private or business travels.
And actually I was just todaytrying to perfect onion cutting
before this show I cut my finger, so I still have a long way to
go, but now it's fine, it's justa little bit.
So I still have a long way togo, but yeah, just just, you
(04:04):
know, like doing things thatbasically put some light in your
day after the long day of workand the stress and everything
like that, so de-stress.
So cooking is something thatde-stresses me as well.
And apart from that, yeah, withthree kids, there's a lot of
activities going on, right.
So what I do like is, duringthe weekend, spending time with
(04:26):
them as much as I can.
I've been traveling a lotduring the first year at
Microsoft, so, you know, afterCOVID, during COVID and after
COVID, I'm just, you know,trying to spend as much time
with them.
You know they're early ages, sothis is the most important time
of their lives, I guess.
And, yeah, trying to make thesevaluable memories together with
(04:48):
them, right.
So we do a lot of hiking,cycling, these things, right
what's the best things to do inyour respective countries.
Mark Smith (04:54):
If I was going to visit your countries, what's the
one place in your mind thatyou'd go?
You've got to go here.
Jozsef Vadkerti (05:00):
You've got to see this in hungary, I would say
that you need to see the LakeBalaton, one of the largest
lakes in Central and even inalmost the entire Europe, so it
makes sense to go there.
You can sail there and alsomany, many strands.
It's a pretty big area forsummertime and, of course, you
(05:21):
need to have a look at all ofour buildings and sightseeing
opportunities in budapest,lovely country.
I don't know whether you haveseen, but the recent movies many
, many recent movies are justproduced here, so occasionally I
mean a few months ago, therewere a couple of very famous
actors alongside the denube andyou could just meet with them.
(05:42):
It's accidental, so it was.
It's crazy that how hollywoodconsiders now budapest as a
location for film production, soit's unbelievable.
So these are the two thingsthat you nice just makes.
Really, if you come here, thenjust discover it, because it
makes sense I've done the secondone.
Mark Smith (06:02):
I've been on the danube, I've been into budapest
and, yeah, my wife and I had alovely, lovely time there.
I like the saunas as well, thebath houses very nice.
But yeah, beautiful city,beautiful city, slovenia.
How about slovenia?
What's the highlights there?
Uros Kastelic (06:19):
yeah.
So slovenia is relatively small, very beautiful country, green,
you know, mountains, lakes,rivers and a little bit of the
sea as well.
So if you have just one day,obviously the most touristic
place I can think of right nowwould be Lake Bled, which is
like a nice lake, a glacier lake, with island somewhere in the
(06:40):
middle with a church on top.
So you can take a boat go thereand, you know, just walk around
a little bit.
But, as I said before, you know, like Slovenia being relatively
small country, actually thereare, you know, like more
adventurous people that do liketraverse from you know like
mountains to the sea in one dayor things like that.
So, whatever you like, right,we have basically everything.
(07:02):
It's a beautiful, small countrywith plenty of varieties that
you can taste and try.
Mark Smith (07:07):
I like it.
So one of the things I want tofocus on today is this book that
you have written.
So tell us first of all, whatis the book, what's the subject
that it focuses on and how didit come about.
Jozsef Vadkerti (07:18):
Okay, I'll take it.
The book is about DevOps andhardware platforms, so these are
two particular orthogonaltopics and if you speak with
developers don't you understandwhat Power Platform is.
And if you talk with peoplefrom the BizOps solution area,
then they don't reallyunderstand what DevOps is.
And we have decided after thefirst contact with the publisher
(07:44):
PACT the publishing companyPACT that it really makes sense
to start discovering this areaand to write down the things
that we have seen with ourcustomers and we have already
experienced with our enterprisecustomers and how they manage
those environments and how wecan combine DevOps in the
(08:05):
low-code, no-code area.
So that was the British writerand the book itself is.
The title of the book is theMastering DevOps on Power
Platform and, if I've alreadyseen, uros has a copy in his
hand.
Mark Smith (08:17):
Excellent, excellent .
Now I'm surprised thatMicrosoft folks like yourself
wrote this book, right?
Because it's not necessarilyabout moving licenses or moving,
you know, selling the powerplatform proceeds, that type of
thing.
How much in your day-to-dayrole in engaging with customers
does this whole subject ofDevOps come up?
(08:38):
And you know, when you'reselling, obviously to a
technical stakeholder, it'sextremely important, right?
Because sometimes there's aconsideration that, because it's
extremely important, right?
Because sometimes there's aconsideration that because it's
low code, oh, there's no kind ofrigor, there's no technical
rigor in the work that is done.
So how important does thediscussion around devops really
help position the platformcorrectly in the customer's mind
(09:00):
?
Uros Kastelic (09:01):
yeah, if I'm jumping into this one a little
bit right.
So first of all, with yorjaf,we let's say, same roles as a
specialist for low-code, tryingto position and for sale Power
Platform licenses to the clientsin order for them to basically
build up the applications,bizapps, applications on Power
Platform, automate workflows andso on.
(09:22):
But we worked in two different,let's say, areas within our
European, let's say, area calledthe Central Eastern and Middle
Eastern Africa.
I was working actually more forthe Southeast countries and he
was working in Central EuropeEuropean countries.
So I'll share my view of whatI've experienced with my clients
(09:46):
and, of course, yours, if youcan with yours, but I think it
will align right.
So, basically, what I've comeacross with is that the clients
who start with Power Platform,usually you have like two
different set of clients Onethat basically jump directly to
you know, like trying to perfecteverything.
You know usually there'ssomeone from maybe an IT or
(10:06):
someone technical that islooking into this and saying,
all right, let's get it off andget it right, right, and they
start looking into things fromthe beginning around the
governance, setting up thegovernance and so on, and
somehow they come across this,you know, like application
lifecycle management.
We've mentioned it somewhere inour documentation, but no one
was really focusing on it, right?
(10:26):
So they hear about it or theyread about it, but they don't
really go deep on this one,right?
So during the workshops that wehave or during the conversation
with the clients that we havearound, you know, like center of
excellence and governance also,one topic that comes up is
application lifecycle management.
Right, and they usually put itaside Somewhere.
(10:47):
After we do the security, we dothe governance thing and we
make sure that everything islocked, we will then take care
of the ALM as well.
Right?
So that's one part of theclient.
The other part of the client islet's just start with Power
Platform, let's try to buildwhat we can and we'll do that.
Right, and they don't evenbother around.
You know, the governance andthe power, application, obstacle
(11:07):
management, the DevOps and soon.
So our idea of this book isactually to help both worlds
come together and understand theimportance of doing this, and
we talk about all thesedifferent approaches like
managed pipelines.
We talk about, you know, likemore professional approach with
the DevOps, where we basicallyalign with the clients.
(11:28):
Is that, of course, when youstart doing this, you need to
somehow start doing this in themanaged way.
So, if you start building theapps, you know, sooner or later
you will have to do this in amanaged way.
So we start talking about, forexample, the managed
environments and sooner or laterwe come to, of course,
solutions, of course, and how tobasically use those solutions
(11:52):
to start building and deployingsolutions in a managed way.
Right, and then this is where webasically position the DevOps,
and every customer client thatwe talk to understands this, but
they are on a different journey.
You know we are all aware ofthe Power Platform, adoption
maturity level or model where wecan position a client on this.
(12:15):
You know, like XY chart, wherethey are positioned based on the
adoption maturity level.
Right, and with all the clients, we have to do this.
We have to assess and analyzewhere they are and how to
improve their maturity levelwith the Power Platform as well.
So application lifecyclemanagement is one dot that we
can put somewhere on thatmaturity level graph and we have
(12:38):
to somehow help them improve it.
Right To understand that.
Yes, you know, alm DevOps isone of the important things
there and if you want to do thisright, if you want to basically
tackle this properly.
It should be there as well, sothis book tries to address this
concern right, and is it astep-by-step manual on how to do
(12:59):
it?
Mark Smith (12:59):
So if I, you know, let's say I had a level 200
understanding of DevOps, ofpipelines, of GitHub, things
like that, will this take me tolike a 400 level?
Will this give me the hey?
What's your view on that?
Jozsef Vadkerti (13:16):
Yeah, I mean we have created not just a
step-by-step guide so it's not,like you know, follow our
guidance and based on that, youcreate this particular
environment, but we have alsoprovided appropriate GitHub
repositories on the host.
So it's not just, like you know, clicking, but also you can try
it out and it brings you tolevel 400.
So, if I remember back, I spentliterally one chapter
(13:38):
discovering the DevSecOpscapabilities of GitHub and I
went down things like you knowhow you can utilize CodeQL to
check your extensions based onthose definitions that GitHub
Advanced Security brings to you.
So it's, you know it's not justa very simple way to do, but we
try to go as deep down aspossible and we have also
(14:01):
utilized some MVPs around theworld to check our chapters and
check out and go through ourguidelines and descriptions, how
to realize those things intheir own tenants and in their
own repositories.
So I feel it is pretty deepexperience.
And back to your question.
So what I've experienced andthis is what I really like
(14:23):
nowadays to experience that themore mature the enterprise is,
the more eager to learn aboutDevOps and it's an immediate
question Okay, what about DevOps?
Do you have CICD pipelines here?
I was just really excited when Ifirst heard these questions,
let's say one year ago, and atthat time I already knew that we
(14:46):
are on the right track, or wewere on the right track, to
write this book, because it'ssomething that was really
missing from the market.
And sure we have these managedpipelines and sure our global
group has also realized thatit's part of the offering, and
sure our product group has alsorealized that it's part of the
offering.
But if you have a largeenterprise and we are talking
about enterprises havinghundreds of thousands of
(15:09):
employees and when you havehundreds of thousands of
employees having, I don't know,hundreds or 200s or even more
mission-critical applications,then it's not a question that
you need to do one step back andyou need to utilize the real
DevOps capabilities that, likethat or which DevOps tools
modern DevOps tools can offeryou, among others, security as
(15:32):
well.
So that was a very warmsurprise for me.
That customer asked aboutDevOps.
Uros Kastelic (15:40):
And maybe just one thing to add here.
You know, like many times whenI'm talking with the here, you
know, like many times when I'mtalking with the clients, you
know they think of PowerPlatform being just this
low-code, no-code solution,right, and they forget that we
have this possibility of aflexible platform, of extending
throughout.
Also, you know, professionaldeveloper tools like asia DevOps
(16:03):
and github also is right, so itgives the customers or
basically, you know, likeorganizations this option of
being flexible.
If you want to go with themanaged pipelines, go ahead, use
that so that you basicallycover the the needs of the ALM.
But if you want to go, you know, all in and do more things and
(16:24):
also incorporate these to, let'ssay, your project management
needs, that you're currentlydoing with Azure, devops, you
know, for example, azure Boards,for example, or GitHub, you can
do that as well, right, andthat's the beauty of the Power
Platform.
Mark Smith (16:39):
Yeah, very flexible.
How much did you work with theproduct team in developing the
book?
In other words, did you have toget additional insights from
them, even perhaps where roadmapwas going?
One of the challenges with thebook is that once you've written
it in the tech space, it startsto become obsolete because new
features come out.
(17:00):
Things change, so how do youanswer that?
Uros Kastelic (17:03):
That was funny, actually one of their first
comment, you know, like why thebook, if it's going to be
obsolete, even you know from themoment you launch it.
But joseph has a nice story ofhe was basically engaged with a
couple of, let's say, folks fromthe product team.
So maybe, joseph, you canrespond to that.
Jozsef Vadkerti (17:19):
yeah, I just tried to recall, I mean that,
what occasion it was, because wehave a tour of how it was,
something like a power platform,I mean one and half years ago.
But long story short, the vp ofpower apps, ryan cunningham,
has visited also hungary and Ihave the opportunity to go to
dinner with him after theone-day workshop and delivering
(17:41):
everything that we have planned.
And you know, I've justmentioned during the dinner that
we are planning to write a bookabout DevOps and the Power
Platform and how these twoparticular disciplines can be
combined together.
And he said that, oh, that'sgreat, that's fantastic that we
are going to do something likethat.
And he immediately offered hishelp.
(18:03):
And after we have discussed,together with Uros, the next
step, I reached out to him thatlook, okay, we will write
something, but we want to writesomething about up-to-date,
relevant and somehow preserve itfor the future.
And we could organize severalcalls with the PowerPlot
architecture teams, so the onesyou know at that particular
(18:24):
partner level working for PowerPlatform could give us insights,
of course, under NDA, that whatis planning.
And we have considered allthese things right in the book
to reach this particularrelevance and keep the relevance
of the book and the content ofthe book.
It was a fantastic experiencethat I know of VPs to reach this
particular relevance and keepthe relevance of the book and
the content of the book.
Yeah, it was a fantasticexperience that I know VPs.
(18:47):
I can reach out to them, I canchat with them.
So I mean I could reach out toRyan Perchette and of course, he
has answers.
So different mindset how theseguys consider the product and
also the sales and field peopleto win new and new customers and
win new and new customers andwin new and new solutions on the
platform itself so, yeah, andof course, ryan has so much
(19:08):
history and legacy, being thathe really owned, yeah cds, a
dataverse right with it.
Mark Smith (19:14):
He was the lead on that when it came to market for
the power platform.
So he incredibly knowledgeableguy, great guy, tell me about.
Now that we've moved into aworld of co-pilot and
organizations are looking at howco-pilot studio governance
comes into play, and one of thethings that I was, you know,
just in the tail end of lastyear working with some internal
(19:37):
teams at Microsoft and thisquestion of co-pilot governance
came up.
And where does that sit in theecosystem of understanding
levers, what tools, what'savailable from a governance
perspective and therefore, howdoes that fit into an ALM story
(19:57):
as well, and how clients shouldbe thinking of AI in a low-code
context, but also with thatrigor in place, what are you
seeing?
Uros Kastelic (20:08):
So, when it comes to the Copilot Studio, there's
just one additional service inthe Power Platform.
That is basically when lookingat the DevOps and application
lifecycle management, done inthe same way as Power Apps or
Power Automate.
It's going to be packed intothe solutions right Now and once
you have something in asolution, then you apply
(20:30):
basically similar mechanism asbefore mentioned.
Right, for all the services.
When the Copilot Studiobasically actually Copilot
Studio is a relatively new nameright?
We know Copilot Studio alreadyfrom the Power Virtual Agents
from before.
Right, and we had to tacklethis ALM, let's say, challenge
already in the past.
(20:51):
Right, so we've done it thisway With Copilot Studio.
Recently we've got some nicenew looking features like, for
example, allowing us to dotemplates, which significantly
helps organizations to deploynew agents through templates,
you know, for various differentscenarios, industry specific
cases and so on.
(21:11):
But when concerning, you know,the DevOps approach, that's
something that we do in the sameway.
However, when looking at theco-pilots and the agents, as you
said, we have to look at moreholistically because one thing
is utilizing the GPT orbasically the LLM that is,
inside the tool itself, but onething is many times we see that
(21:34):
the customers would like toexpand their footprint.
They might go with Azure andthey want to, for example,
leverage LLMs or different,basically, models that are
available there, right?
So we have to look holisticallyat how to manage the entire,
let's say, project of buildingthis kind of agents, right?
And then you know, like evenbroader actually, when it comes
(21:58):
to this, you know, like agentsusually connect to some backend
services, like throughconnectors, and so actually it's
not just an agent within theCopilot Studio, it's actually
the full-blown project thatwe're looking at and we need to
basically find a way how tomanage all of that.
So one is, of course, buildingthe UI through Copilot Studio,
but then next to it is are weleveraging the same LLM that is
(22:21):
built inside or are we goingabove and beyond with Azure?
How to deploy that?
If we package everything, we'regoing to deploy it to Teams or
Microsoft 365.
Through which channels are wegoing to deploy this?
Right?
So there's a lot of things thatwe need to address.
We try to cover some of thesethings also in the book, but of
course, copilot Studio israpidly evolving these days,
(22:43):
right.
So there are new things cominginto, models are changing and
yeah, maybe you know, like now,jozef, you being, you know, like
part of this different team,let's say, of digital natives,
maybe you can share somethingaround.
You know, the Azure LLM, oryour view on this one.
Jozsef Vadkerti (22:59):
Yeah, I mean that really just adds to what's
so foolish that you know, sinceCopa is still part of the Power
Platform, what we have writtenin the book you can utilize it
as much as you want and notmentioning the fact that one of
the greatest securityenhancements no-transcript
(23:39):
integration scenario utilizingthe underlying Azure as well,
and you know it's a very simpleway.
You can create a customconnector that leverages an
Azure API management servicethat calls out to your favorite
large language model or thelarge language model that you
have fine-tuned, and imaginethat the power of this thing
(24:00):
that you can use DeepSeq in yourchatbot that is secured on
Azure, running on AzureEnterprise Environment.
There is no data collection anddata filtering and utilizing
for the training or retrainingof the Deep Sleeper.
Still, you can use the DeepSleep model if you want, and
many more, as many as availableright now in our model catalog,
(24:23):
and it's more like 1,400, 1,500different models.
So it's unbelievable.
And not mentioning the factthat right now, because I work
with digital natives in theemail organizations it's a large
organizations but they want tospeed these digital natives want
to reach these particular largelanguage model capabilities as
(24:46):
fast as possible, notnecessarily directly built into
the product, but imagine thatyou have a product, you have
something that you try to sellday by day, but you need to
manage the support team.
You need to manage your salesteam.
You need to utilize even theautonomous agents.
These are the things that evenhardcore developers now want to
(25:07):
understand what you can do withthe help of Copilot Studio,
because you know, everybody canwrite a large-language
visual-based chatbot or even anautonomous agent.
Because you know, everybody canwrite a large-language
visual-based chatbot or even anautonomous agent.
It's only a question of time.
It takes two weeks, or, for me,last time during an AI tour, I
created an autonomous agent inless than 20 minutes and it was
about a refund agent.
(25:27):
Assuming that you have ane-commerce platform, you sell
laptops, and I've created anautonomous agent that can manage
customers' claim and refundrequests based on the policy
that was provided by thatparticular e-commerce company.
Imagine that and thisparticular speed is very, very
relevant for these advancedcustomers.
(25:48):
I would say and to compare toeveryone's additional
information as background we hadpreviously so, when it was only
the Power Virtual Agents, therewere only 20 engineers working
on the product.
Right now, there are 500engineers working on the same
product and we see thisparticular, developer velocity
day by day, because new and newfeatures are being released
(26:10):
almost every day, but at leastonce in a week.
So that's the power behind this, and you know many, many more
in governance capabilities.
I will just also put some noteshere that we should.
We can talk about the dataprotection policies.
They are there.
We can talk about the graphconnector integration.
So if I consider the platformfrom M365 to graph connectors,
(26:34):
it's not just about access orconsiders your access level to
most of the data sources thatyou can add through
GraphConnector.
We have you know under the hoodand Copilot Studio can even
raise your attention that theinformation that was provided is
classified as confidential orhighly confidential.
(26:57):
And these are the things thatyou can do, of course, from
scratch, but imagine that howmuch time you need to spend on
it and how much effort you needto invest to reach that level of
complexity and capability ofthe Copilot Studio.
So I'm a super fan of theCopilot Studio, whatever I'm
doing in Azure or in PowerPlator Dynamics or M565, because I
(27:20):
think that a Copilot Studioagent, or the entire idea around
the autonomous agent, isbrilliant.
And the next future I mean thenext step in the future is, like
you know, the dark factoriesthat we have.
We have autonomous factoriesworking in the dark, without
electricity, without lightning,because the robots don't need
lights to do their job rightthis is the same level of
(27:44):
inspiration that I get from the-.
Mark Smith (27:46):
I love that.
As we go to wrap up, how do youpersonally use AI so not
selling to a customer, or youmight use it as part of your
selling process to a customerbut how are you personally
integrating AI into your life?
Uros Kastelic (28:01):
That's a big one Actually, every day more or less
, like, for example, you know,like even mentioning the kids in
the beginning, right Even whenwe have to work together on some
.
You know like homeworks withkids.
You know I come to it, you knowI ask, you know, oh, I forgot.
You know like homeworks withkids, you know I come to it.
You know I ask, you know, oh, Iforgot.
You know, like how to do this.
(28:21):
You know, like, please remindme of this school lesson that I
had, like you know, many yearsago and how to do that.
But that's just one you knowexample.
The other thing is, you know,in sales we use a lot generative
AI, like understanding theclients, understanding the
potential.
You know leads, opportunities,how to evolve that.
So that's part of you know,like the sales cycle.
Also, you know, like fromprivate life, using it for you
(28:44):
know giving suggestions around.
You know, like, where to go,what to do, what kind of ideas
could we have around.
You know, maybe, someactivities.
The one thing that you know manypeople ask me is have you used
Copilot to write the book?
Right, because it was actually.
You know generative AI wasavailable at that time.
Right, and the thing is and wecan I think Joseph will agree
(29:07):
with me you know like, althoughgenerative AI, at least at that
time you know, was, let's say,in a sense, already available,
time you know was, let's say, ina sense, already available,
giving you the ideas of writing,potentially, some chapters and
so on.
It's not something that you canreally rely on especially.
You know, like, when you'rewriting a book, it's really your
own thoughts yes, you have toput your own thoughts in all of
(29:29):
this and actually what I foundis, at the end of the day, when
I started putting my experience,my thoughts, into the book, I
was actually doing it muchfaster than relying on any other
tools to help me with that.
It's a completely differentthing.
So, definitely, generative AIhas a lot of potential, but
that's also as the name suggests.
(29:49):
It's just a co-pilot right now.
It's a co-pilot right now.
Right, it's something that itwill help you do things, but
it's still on you to basicallylook into that, understand where
you want to go, validate what'sthe output and basically either
go with it or just ditch itright.
So, yeah, that's how I use it.
Jozsef Vadkerti (30:07):
Jozef, maybe you yeah, you told everything.
So when I use it, imagine thattypical sales scenarios where
you get a public sector tenderwritten in any language besides
English.
So when you get such aspecification roughly 200 pages
then I use Copilot even agentsto understand the content and
(30:31):
understand and find the key orcriteria in a certain area.
So it's very, very powerful,very helpful.
But on the other side, in theagentic world, I can already
imagine an agent managing my sonyear five, many, many homeworks
.
Of course he says all the timeno, I'm fine, I've already done
(30:53):
my homework.
But imagine that if I had anout-of-house agent that would
double-check these statementsand also ask for proof of
delivery.
Like you know, providing apicture and have a look at it.
Just take a picture of yourhomework and let my agent check
the outcome whether you havereally died so unbelievable.
But yeah we use it day by dayand it's part of our work to
(31:17):
ease our time that we invest toour customers.
Uros Kastelic (31:21):
It's so good.
It's just one last thing maybea GitHub co-pilot, right, for
you know, we, as you know, like,even though that we are, you
know, sellers, we still do somehands-on work.
You know, we still maybe youknow, we still maybe you know
like prepare demos and thingslike that, and I often find
myself, you know, maybe, fromtoday I get the task that
tomorrow I need to presentsomething to a client and you
(31:44):
know, I know what I want to doand I want to do it maybe you
know like focused or tailoredfor their industry or something
like that.
So I just go to github copilot,say, you know like, okay, I
need this app.
I want to, you know like, buildan app that is more.
You know like, uh, specific tomaybe a website for the
financial industry, like a bankor something like that.
I get the help from the githubcopilot to build a template
(32:07):
around this and then on top ofthat, I add, for example,
copilot studio with an agent, sothat I basically can
demonstrate the capabilities ofa co-pilot studio on the
external website, like anexternal agent or this kind of a
chatbot experience that we usedto have, things like that.
So prototyping prototyping isalso a nice way where Jenna can
help.
Mark Smith (32:28):
I love it.
Josef Joris, thank you so muchfor coming on the show.
It's been interesting.
I actually wanted to drill intothe art of writing a book in a
lot more detail.
I've actually just beencontracted to write one for
Microsoft Press myself, and soI've got three months to output
a book on co-pilot adoption, andso it's an exciting time.
(32:52):
But it's my first time writinga book and of course there's a
lot of work right, there's a lotof work in writing it.
Uros Kastelic (33:02):
Yeah, I remember myself once, you know, because
you still have to do your dailyjob, you still have to take care
of the kids, and then duringthe night, you start writing.
I remember myself, you know,like at one point I realized it
was like 3 o'clock or 4 o'clockin the morning and I was like
woke up myself behind the laptop, you know like, with my
keyboard, with my hands on thekeyboard, like pressing the
(33:25):
letter Z or something in theWord document.
It was horrible actually, butyou do it because you see the
future like it's a positivefuture ahead.
Right it, because you see thefuture it's a positive future
ahead and you see this end goaland you want to achieve it.
And of course, you juststruggle through this, and of
course it's not a struggle.
It gives a lot of benefits aswell, personally as well.
(33:48):
So you achieve another task.
Good luck to you, mark.
Jozsef Vadkerti (33:52):
Thank you, good luck.
It simplifies your life I meannot your life but your thoughts
Because the book helped me a lotto write down in a very simple
way how very complex things work, and after that it was much
easier to talk with businessfolks as well.
(34:15):
Look, okay, we use many, manyabbreviations, we use many, many
terms and we also all the timechange the name, but the reality
and the real use case behindthis capability is that and that
and I've learned this from thebook really to articulate those
thoughts in a very simple butvery, you know, get the point
(34:39):
way.
Mark Smith (34:39):
Thanks, guys.
Thanks, Mark, for having us.
Thank you, hey.
Thanks for listening.
I'm your host, Mark Smith,otherwise known as the NZ365 guy
.
Is there a guest you would liketo see on the show from
Microsoft?
Please message me on LinkedInand I'll see what I can do.
Final question for you how willyou create with Copilot today,
Ka kite?
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