June 4, 2025 • 23 mins
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🎙️ FULL SHOW NOTES
https://www.microsoftinnovationpodcast.com/694
What happens when a failed attempt at a cleaning job leads to a lifelong career in tech? Aki Antman, President of AI and Copilot at Digital Neighborhood, shares his remarkable journey from teenage coder to AI leader. In this episode, Aki unpacks how organizations—from European enterprises to the Abu Dhabi government—are embracing AI, and why hands-on experimentation is the key to Copilot adoption. Whether you're leading digital transformation or just getting started with AI, this conversation offers practical insights and real-world strategies to help you thrive in the age of intelligent tools.
🔑KEY TAKEAWAYS
Adoption Starts with Action: Aki emphasizes that AI adoption isn’t about watching demos—it’s about using the tools. Like building muscle, you only grow by doing.
Copilot as a Cultural Shift: Successful AI integration requires leadership buy-in and a shift in mindset. Organizations that lead by example see faster, more meaningful results.
From Experimentation to Impact: Real transformation begins when users apply Copilot to their own data and workflows—unlocking time savings, creativity, and even four-day workweeks.
Low-Code is the Future of AI Agents: 90% of enterprise AI agents will be built using low-code/no-code platforms like Copilot Studio, democratizing development across teams.
AI as a Personal Learning Partner: Aki uses AI daily—from preparing keynotes on unfamiliar topics to co-authoring books—proving that AI can be a powerful tool for continuous learning.
🧰 RESOURCES MENTIONED
👉 Microsoft Copilot Studio – Low-code platform for building AI agents: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-copilot-studio
👉 ChatGPT Voice Mode – Used by Aki for real-time learning while driving: https://openai.com/chatgpt
👉 AI Foundry – https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/products/ai-foundry
OTHER RESOURCES:
👉 Microsoft MVP YouTube Series - How to Become a Microsoft MVP - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzf0yupPbVkqdRJDPVE4PtTlm6quDhiu7
👉 Aki Antman’s Book: From Copilot to Commander – https://www.amazon.com/Copilot-Commander-Redefining-Business-Generative-ebook/dp/B0DWNBXXBM?ref_=ast_author_dp&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.LWSjdjTsrRQPKIbDc_eN1g.hGH1sKs6R
This year we're adding a new show to our line up - The AI Advantage. We'll discuss the skills you need to thrive in an AI-enabled world.
Accelerate your Microsoft career with the 90 Day Mentoring Challenge
We’ve helped 1,300+ people across 70+ countries establish successful careers in the Microsoft Power Platform and Dynamics 365 ecosystem.
Benefit from expert guidance, a supportive community, and a clear career roadmap. A lot can change in 90 days, get started today!
If you want to get in touch with me, you can message me here on Linkedin.
Thanks for listening 🚀
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mark Smith (00:06):
Welcome to the MVP show.
My intention is that you listento the stories of these MVP
guests and are inspired tobecome an MVP and bring value to
the world through your skills.
If you have not checked it outalready, I do a YouTube series
called how to Become an MVP.
The link is in the show notes.
With that, let's get on withthe show.
(00:31):
Today's guest is from Helsinki,Finland.
He is a president of AI andco-pilot at the Digital
Neighbourhood.
He was first awarded as MVP in2024.
He has been recognized over 15times as one of the top 100 ICT
influencers in Finland.
You can find links to his bioand socials in the show note for
(00:53):
this episode.
Welcome to the show, Aki.
Aki Antman (00:56):
Thank you so much, Mark.
It's a pleasure to be here andthank you for the nice
introduction.
Mark Smith (01:02):
I'm looking forward to the discussion, particularly
in your experiences in AI andco-pilot.
But before we get started, tellme a bit about food, family and
fun.
What do you do when you're notplaying with technology?
Aki Antman (01:15):
Well, it's work, but it's also a hobby.
So I do play a lot aroundtechnology in my free time as
well.
But I do have three children,the oldest one being already 18
this year 16-year-old daughter,and I'll provide a joy for a
four-year-old son who keeps uspretty busy.
I love reading, I love playingsports like tennis, stuff like
(01:39):
that, and actually I lovewatches and fast cars.
Mark Smith (01:43):
Nice, Nice.
What a great selection and agreat span of children.
My oldest is 19 and my youngestis two, so I have a similar
type spectrum to you there formy three children.
That's interesting watches andfast cars.
How did that come about?
Aki Antman (02:05):
I don't know my father.
He has always been a sports carenthusiast.
I have been lucky enough todrive one since I turned 18 and
got my driver's license, and ithas sticked with me.
I'm 50 years old now, but Istill love those fast cars.
Mark Smith (02:21):
Nice, nice, I like it.
How did you get into technology?
What's been your journey?
Why was that the career ofchoice for you?
Aki Antman (02:30):
Well, I was 20 years old so that was like 1986, and
I applied for a job as a cleaner, like cleaning factory floors,
and I didn't get the job becauseI didn't have any experience
and I was too young and myfather told me that well, but
you are interested in computers.
A friend of mine is looking fora software developer in his IT
(02:53):
company.
Could you do that?
I said yeah, of course, andthen I went there for an
interview.
I was 12 years old and I gotthe job, and that's the only
thing I have done ever since.
But the only reason is that Iwasn't old enough and good
enough to be a cleaner.
Mark Smith (03:08):
Wow, that's an incredible story.
That's outstanding.
I love it.
How have you then, how has thatprogressed into AI for you, how
you know?
When did AI start becoming athing for you, that you became
aware of it and started to takeinterest in it, and what do you
do in the AI space now?
Aki Antman (03:32):
So basically I actually have my master's degree
in the computer science fromthe helsinki university and I
started studying there in 92.
Now actually, they were, ofcourse, developing linux over
there.
They were talking a lot ofabout ai back already and I was
always fascinated by it and thenof course it went a little bit
to the background and I havealways studied AI and looking
(03:54):
forward to the day when itbecomes a common issue and when
everyone talks about AI.
And then, like in the late 22,ai finally woke up with the
release of Chatsky PT to thepublic and I knew from that
moment that this will changeeverything.
Mark Smith (04:11):
Wow, and you're right.
Right, it's permeating everypart of our life nowadays.
Even the way our podcast haschanged dramatically in how much
AI is used to do thepost-production work, tidy up
the audio, all now infused withAI, even selecting the titles of
the show, show notes, all doneby AI, which used to be all
(04:33):
manually transcripted, et ceterain the past, no longer needed.
So I've definitely noticed it'spermeated every area.
What's the common projectsyou're involved with nowadays?
Um, particularly in theco-pilot space with microsoft.
Aki Antman (04:51):
Well, it really depends because, as you said, I
live here in Helsinki, finland.
We have customers here.
We have customers in Sweden,denmark, in the Netherlands and
across Europe.
But we also have a subsidiaryin the United Arab Emirates and
they are actually much moreadvanced there and it's a bit
scary for us Europeans.
(05:13):
But the projects, they actuallyvary quite a lot from country
to country.
Actually, in the UAE we aretraining the whole nation, we
are training the Abu Dhabigovernment on them becoming AI
native by 27.
And that's only like two yearsaway.
And we are training tens andtens of thousands of people
(05:35):
there on Copilot and AI.
Mark Smith (05:38):
So that interests me how do you train people on
Copilot?
Aki Antman (05:43):
Well, actually this was a customer event in Italy
about six months ago, and SatyaNadella said to some of our
customers there that you cannottrain by watching other people
train, that you cannot train bywatching other people train,
meaning that if I'm watching youlifting weights, it doesn't
build up my muscle until I startlifting them myself.
So the main thing is that wehave to get people curious.
(06:05):
We have to get people to startusing AI in small tasks and then
in the bigger tasks, and onlythen they have the right mindset
to start thinking aboutbuilding agents and building
more advanced use cases that youcan actually measure on your
P&L.
But it's all about getting thepeople to get started.
Mark Smith (06:25):
So how do you get people to get started?
Why I'm so interested.
I'm currently writing a book onco-pilot adoption and I just
find the stories from the fieldfascinating on how you take
people that might beparticularly resistant to AI not
specifically co-pilot in thiscase, but the resistant comes
(06:47):
from a technology that somepeople fear might take their
jobs right.
Nobody feared that MicrosoftTeams was going to take their
job when I said, hey, you needto learn Microsoft Teams in the
pandemic.
But now we've got a piece oftechnology that people are being
encouraged to use and there'ssometimes some skepticism.
How do you get beyond that toget folks into a mindset of how
(07:12):
this can help them become moreefficient, get rid of the
mundane nature of their work inmany situations and allow them
you know, perhaps to go homeearly from work because they're
getting their stuff done?
Aki Antman (07:26):
Exactly.
Actually, one of our customersin the UAE.
They are already experimentingwith a four-day work week for
all of their employees becauseof the cost savings coming from
AI.
So basically, it's not evenabout getting home early, but
it's getting for like four-dayworking week.
But your question back to that,it's a good one.
It's a super good one becausethat's completely true what you
(07:50):
say about the mindset and peoplefearing that AI will take their
jobs, and, in any case, it'sall about change, because you
have to change the way how youwork with AI.
You have to unlearn many newthings, and that's always
difficult for us human beings.
So, of course, nowadays we haveover 400 co-pilot customer
organizations.
We have trained well over100,000 people.
(08:12):
So for us it's pretty easynowadays because we can share
the success stories.
We can share what other peopleare doing, what other
organizations like you are doing, how successful they have been,
how they are measuring thesuccess, how they are getting
the results.
So it's actually nowadays mucheasier.
But it's all about like gettingpeople excited, showing them
(08:36):
what they can do with AI,showing them what AI can do for
them.
But after that it's superimportant, as I said earlier, to
start experimenting themselves.
And I think one thing to dothat is to go to real life use
cases as soon as possible,because if you are just
experimenting with the toolsavailable on web, you get some
(08:59):
ideas of what they could do withyou, but when you start working
with, for example, copilot withyour own data, then you can
finally start to realize, oh,this will actually help me, this
will actually free up my timeand, as you said for the podcast
, it frees you from the routineworks.
So the things that you had todo manually before, now you can
(09:20):
let AI automate them and you getto do more podcasts or spend
more spare time or whatever.
Mark Smith (09:28):
Yeah, what's your thoughts and how have you seen?
Over the last couple of months,microsoft introduced Microsoft
M365 Copilot Chat as the freeversion to complement or lead
into Microsoft M365 Copilot.
(09:48):
Have you seen the chat versionas an enabler inside
organizations that are perhapsresistant to getting on?
You know a paid subscription ofCopilot.
How have you seen the benefitof that particular SKU from
Microsoft?
Aki Antman (10:04):
Yeah, yeah, it's actually a super good thing for
our customers and for us as well, because we have been talking a
lot for years now that youshould give access to AI for
everyone and, of course, buyinglicenses for everyone.
To begin with, it could be toobig investment.
So now you can actually givethe access to Copilot chat for
(10:27):
everyone.
We can train them very quicklyand they can start using it and
start having that AI era mindset.
So in that way, it's superimportant.
You can also build agents andthen you can have them using
those, and to me, it's astepping stone towards the
Microsoft 365 Copilot that youcan actually use inside the
(10:47):
tools you use for your dailywork anyways, but you have to
remember that the Copilot chartis not only for us office
workers.
It's also for frontline workers, and this is one part that most
people seem to be missing,because tutors of the people of
the global workforce, they arefrontline workers and we should
give them AI tools as quickly aspossible, because they benefit
(11:11):
a lot from them.
Mark Smith (11:14):
Where are you seeing the benefits come in?
Are there, you know?
Do use cases jump to mind thatyou're seeing?
I suppose the light bulb comeon for people to all of a sudden
like, oh my gosh, this, I cando this, I can do that.
At what point are you kind ofseeing that transition moment
for people to really start to go?
(11:35):
You know what?
I can experiment with this.
I can try new things.
I want to try new things and Iwant to use it more in what I do
, not because somebody else'smanagement is saying I should do
it, but because I see the valuemyself.
Aki Antman (11:50):
Yeah, exactly, and that's the thing, because you
need to have the support fromthe top leadership.
We are seeing it from time totime that all those
organizations, our customers,where you have the support from
the top leadership and wherethey are actually using AI not
just promoting it, but using itdaily, the results are much
quicker, they are much better.
(12:10):
But, of course, we have to telleveryone, we have to show
everyone what is in it for me,how I can make my workday more
successful, easier for me, how Ican be more innovative with AI
and so on.
And, of course, for thefrontline people think about it
most of our global customers,their workforce usually speaks
(12:32):
20 languages, 50 languages, 70languages or whatever, and they
need to be able to support allthose people.
And nowadays, with theadvancements in the AI,
translations and using spokenlanguage and using multimodal
models, meaning that you canjust point your smartphone
camera to something and ask foradvice and then the AI will help
(12:55):
you.
And if it cannot, it's going toredirect you to real people and
a human being who can help you.
Even if you don't speak thesame language, you can still
have a conversation and you canget to help real time.
Mark Smith (13:09):
Yeah, this is incredible.
Now you've had what I thinkCopilot all up is about 18
months old now that it's been inthe market, you've obviously
seen a lot happen.
If we look to the future, andif you specifically look to the
future, where do you see wherepotentially we will be in 18
(13:31):
months time?
I'm not going to go for twoyears, five years, because I
just think that's who knowsright but in the next, you know,
even by the end of this yearand getting into 2026, where do
you think we're we're going tobe from a workplace um
enablement perspective, usingtools like co-pilot?
Aki Antman (13:50):
That's a very good question, and if you had asked
me for that five-year thing, Iwould have said I have
absolutely no idea.
18 months even.
That is hard to predict, but wewill actually see that we will
be typing a lot less, we will beusing the keyboard a lot less,
and I have been typing almostall my life, but I did learn how
(14:11):
to speak before I did learn totype.
So it's very natural for us andI can see myself nowadays using
AI more and more just by voiceor just through the user
interface, because too manytimes people think that chatting
with the AI is the best userinterface.
It's not.
It's most likely the worst, butin many cases it's still the
(14:33):
only one we have.
But that will be replaced byother user interface components,
whether they are like justtraditional Windows or whatever
graphical user interface,whether they are your smartphone
, whether they are your speech,whether it's your car, whatever.
But we will be using AI in somany ways other than typing into
(14:53):
the chat.
Mark Smith (14:56):
Tell me about you personally and your personal use
of AI, because I love theanalogy you used before.
I can't go to the gym andexpect to build muscle by
watching somebody else work outat the gym, and I just think
that's a poignant metaphor.
And I just see so many peoplein the AI space talking about AI
and then I drill in and askthem so how do you use it?
(15:17):
And they're like oh, you know,I know how to talk about it, and
I'm talking about Microsoftpeople in many situations.
They know how to talk about it,they know how to sell it, but
they're not using it likethey're not.
It's not their second nature touse ai in every part of their
day.
How do you use it?
Aki Antman (15:37):
uh, it was like five months ago.
This is a nice example.
I was invited to give a keynote, uh, to people in medicine
marketing and I was drivingthere and then I realized that I
have absolutely no idea whatmedicine marketing is.
And I'm going to give a keynoteto these people and I know what
I'm going to say about AI andstuff like that.
That I do know.
But medicine marketing, what isthat?
(15:59):
And then I just decided when Iwas driving, let's have a
discussion.
That was actually with Chutky PT, unwanted Voice back then it
had just been released and Idecided to have a conversation
with that, asking by the way,what is medicine marketing?
And then I got the overview andthen I was asking that I'm
giving this keynote to thesepeople about this and this and
(16:20):
this, what kind of questions Imight expect?
And then it gave me somequestions and, okay, here are my
answers.
Can you score them?
And I did that while driving tothe venue in 20 minutes.
And now I do know quite a lotabout medicine marketing.
I wouldn't have learned thatwithout AI.
Wow.
Mark Smith (16:39):
Any other ways you're using it?
Aki Antman (16:42):
Wow, there are quite many ways.
Actually, we just wrote a bookon AI as well and it's called
From Copilot to Commander and wehad to rewrite it a couple of
times because we were too busyto release it and of course,
everything went wrong so quickly.
So we used AI extensively andCopilot extensively to do
(17:03):
fact-checking, what's outdatedtoday and stuff like that, do
all the back-end research, dolike the referencing and stuff
like that.
But also when we had to rewriteso many paragraphs and chapters
because of the delays on ourown side, copilot was invaluable
in that and also part of thebooks.
(17:24):
We just spoke with Rosun Boyd,the other author.
We were just having teamdiscussions with co-pilot on and
then we prompted the book fromthose discussions partially.
So actually there areparagraphs in the book where no
one has typed a word.
Mark Smith (17:41):
Yeah, I get that.
It's one of the exercises.
Today I was doing the same typeof thing with my co-author.
We just we jumped on teams, welooked at a particular chapter
we were going to write, weriffed on what we thought should
go in the chapter and why itwas important, and brought
together our experiences, usecases and then co-pilot, you
(18:04):
know, summarizes, you discussthis.
This was the kind of flow andthen, of course, you go well, is
that the best flow for thechapter?
And well, you should reorderthis.
And is there any gaps?
And it's like it's incrediblehow it has become a sparring
partner in, in organizing yourthoughts and the way you're
thinking.
(18:25):
That is not just about your ownpersonal thinking, but how is
this going to be perceived byothers?
That is potentially going toconsume it.
Does it make sense to them?
And are you leaving somethingelse out because you've got a
gap in your thinking onsomething?
And, of course, I love the wayit can bring in that kind of
other ideas and opinions to yourown.
Aki Antman (18:48):
Exactly, and while you do that, you always learn
something.
So if you were just writing, bytyping in your word, you are
just organizing your thoughtsand maybe you get some new ideas
, but you don't actually learnanything, you don't get anything
new.
But when you talk about yourwriting with AI, you actually
learn something by writing.
It's amazing.
And one other idea it wasactually last night that Mr
(19:11):
Trump announced those newtariffs which are terrible, by
the way, but I was watching theannouncement, it was late
Finnish time and I was actuallydeploying an army of agents to
do the research for me.
So what are the implications tothe Microsoft partners here in
(19:31):
Finland, here in the EuropeanUnion, in the EMEA area and
globally, and also what are theimplications to our business and
our main customers?
And I had that research bymorning when I woke up and I was
actually able to send a plan toour CAO on how this affects us
early today morning.
(19:52):
Without AI and agents, thatwould have been completely
impossible.
I would have needed a team of30 people, which I don't have,
to do that research.
Mark Smith (20:01):
That's amazing.
Are you building your agentswith a specific tooling, in
other words, a you know um?
Are you using microsoft orusing, you know um, the swarm
feature in chat, gpt, or usingsomething from claude?
What's your, what's your toolof choice at the moment for the
agents that you're buildingusing yourself?
Aki Antman (20:23):
uh, when I do something myself, I use quite
many tools.
I like to experiment with them.
As I said earlier, it's a hobbyas well, but mostly I'm
actually using chat, kpt on myspare time when I'm not working
with company data.
But of course, the most of thethings we do we I need access to
my work information, all thedocuments and stuff like that,
(20:44):
and and then of course, we arebuilding most of the agents, and
I'm building most of the agentswith Copilot Studio.
Of course, we are doing somethings with also AI Foundry as
well, and we are definitelybuilding custom code, custom
engine agents as well, utilizingwhatever language models or
whatever small or large languagemodels and other AI tools, like
(21:07):
whether they are machinelearning or computer vision or
whatever in the background aswell.
So it's a big mix.
But I would say that on anygiven organization in the next
12 months, I would say that 90%of the HSA are built with
low-code, no-code tools, mostlyCopilot Studio, which is getting
better all the time, and only10% or something like that will
(21:28):
be built by nerds like us usingPro Code.
Mark Smith (21:32):
Aki, it's been so good talking to you.
Time has flown, such aninteresting topic.
I'm loving the stories that youtell and your experience.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you, time really flieswhen you're having fun, and I
(21:53):
did have a lot of fun talkingwith you.
Thank you about great questions.
Hey, thanks for listening.
I'm your host businessapplication mvp mark smith,
otherwise known as the nz365 guy.
If you like the show and wantto be a supporter, check out
buymeacoffeecom.
Forward slash nz365guy.
Thanks again and see you nexttime.
Thank you you.
Welcome to the MVP show.
My intention is that you listento the stories of these MVP
guests and are inspired tobecome an MVP and bring value to
the world through your skills.
If you have not checked it outalready, I do a YouTube series
called how to Become an MVP.
The link is in the show notes.
With that, let's get on withthe show.
(00:31):
Today's guest is from Helsinki,Finland.
He is a president of AI andco-pilot at the Digital
Neighbourhood.
He was first awarded as MVP in2024.
He has been recognized over 15times as one of the top 100 ICT
influencers in Finland.
You can find links to his bioand socials in the show note for
(00:53):
this episode.
Welcome to the show, Aki.
Aki Antman (00:56):
Thank you so much, Mark.
It's a pleasure to be here andthank you for the nice
introduction.
Mark Smith (01:02):
I'm looking forward to the discussion, particularly
in your experiences in AI andco-pilot.
But before we get started, tellme a bit about food, family and
fun.
What do you do when you're notplaying with technology?
Aki Antman (01:15):
Well, it's work, but it's also a hobby.
So I do play a lot aroundtechnology in my free time as
well.
But I do have three children,the oldest one being already 18
this year 16-year-old daughter,and I'll provide a joy for a
four-year-old son who keeps uspretty busy.
I love reading, I love playingsports like tennis, stuff like
(01:39):
that, and actually I lovewatches and fast cars.
Mark Smith (01:43):
Nice, Nice.
What a great selection and agreat span of children.
My oldest is 19 and my youngestis two, so I have a similar
type spectrum to you there formy three children.
That's interesting watches andfast cars.
How did that come about?
Aki Antman (02:05):
I don't know my father.
He has always been a sports carenthusiast.
I have been lucky enough todrive one since I turned 18 and
got my driver's license, and ithas sticked with me.
I'm 50 years old now, but Istill love those fast cars.
Mark Smith (02:21):
Nice, nice, I like it.
How did you get into technology?
What's been your journey?
Why was that the career ofchoice for you?
Aki Antman (02:30):
Well, I was 20 years old so that was like 1986, and
I applied for a job as a cleaner, like cleaning factory floors,
and I didn't get the job becauseI didn't have any experience
and I was too young and myfather told me that well, but
you are interested in computers.
A friend of mine is looking fora software developer in his IT
(02:53):
company.
Could you do that?
I said yeah, of course, andthen I went there for an
interview.
I was 12 years old and I gotthe job, and that's the only
thing I have done ever since.
But the only reason is that Iwasn't old enough and good
enough to be a cleaner.
Mark Smith (03:08):
Wow, that's an incredible story.
That's outstanding.
I love it.
How have you then, how has thatprogressed into AI for you, how
you know?
When did AI start becoming athing for you, that you became
aware of it and started to takeinterest in it, and what do you
do in the AI space now?
Aki Antman (03:32):
So basically I actually have my master's degree
in the computer science fromthe helsinki university and I
started studying there in 92.
Now actually, they were, ofcourse, developing linux over
there.
They were talking a lot ofabout ai back already and I was
always fascinated by it and thenof course it went a little bit
to the background and I havealways studied AI and looking
(03:54):
forward to the day when itbecomes a common issue and when
everyone talks about AI.
And then, like in the late 22,ai finally woke up with the
release of Chatsky PT to thepublic and I knew from that
moment that this will changeeverything.
Mark Smith (04:11):
Wow, and you're right.
Right, it's permeating everypart of our life nowadays.
Even the way our podcast haschanged dramatically in how much
AI is used to do thepost-production work, tidy up
the audio, all now infused withAI, even selecting the titles of
the show, show notes, all doneby AI, which used to be all
(04:33):
manually transcripted, et ceterain the past, no longer needed.
So I've definitely noticed it'spermeated every area.
What's the common projectsyou're involved with nowadays?
Um, particularly in theco-pilot space with microsoft.
Aki Antman (04:51):
Well, it really depends because, as you said, I
live here in Helsinki, finland.
We have customers here.
We have customers in Sweden,denmark, in the Netherlands and
across Europe.
But we also have a subsidiaryin the United Arab Emirates and
they are actually much moreadvanced there and it's a bit
scary for us Europeans.
(05:13):
But the projects, they actuallyvary quite a lot from country
to country.
Actually, in the UAE we aretraining the whole nation, we
are training the Abu Dhabigovernment on them becoming AI
native by 27.
And that's only like two yearsaway.
And we are training tens andtens of thousands of people
(05:35):
there on Copilot and AI.
Mark Smith (05:38):
So that interests me how do you train people on
Copilot?
Aki Antman (05:43):
Well, actually this was a customer event in Italy
about six months ago, and SatyaNadella said to some of our
customers there that you cannottrain by watching other people
train, that you cannot train bywatching other people train,
meaning that if I'm watching youlifting weights, it doesn't
build up my muscle until I startlifting them myself.
So the main thing is that wehave to get people curious.
(06:05):
We have to get people to startusing AI in small tasks and then
in the bigger tasks, and onlythen they have the right mindset
to start thinking aboutbuilding agents and building
more advanced use cases that youcan actually measure on your
P&L.
But it's all about getting thepeople to get started.
Mark Smith (06:25):
So how do you get people to get started?
Why I'm so interested.
I'm currently writing a book onco-pilot adoption and I just
find the stories from the fieldfascinating on how you take
people that might beparticularly resistant to AI not
specifically co-pilot in thiscase, but the resistant comes
(06:47):
from a technology that somepeople fear might take their
jobs right.
Nobody feared that MicrosoftTeams was going to take their
job when I said, hey, you needto learn Microsoft Teams in the
pandemic.
But now we've got a piece oftechnology that people are being
encouraged to use and there'ssometimes some skepticism.
How do you get beyond that toget folks into a mindset of how
(07:12):
this can help them become moreefficient, get rid of the
mundane nature of their work inmany situations and allow them
you know, perhaps to go homeearly from work because they're
getting their stuff done?
Aki Antman (07:26):
Exactly.
Actually, one of our customersin the UAE.
They are already experimentingwith a four-day work week for
all of their employees becauseof the cost savings coming from
AI.
So basically, it's not evenabout getting home early, but
it's getting for like four-dayworking week.
But your question back to that,it's a good one.
It's a super good one becausethat's completely true what you
(07:50):
say about the mindset and peoplefearing that AI will take their
jobs, and, in any case, it'sall about change, because you
have to change the way how youwork with AI.
You have to unlearn many newthings, and that's always
difficult for us human beings.
So, of course, nowadays we haveover 400 co-pilot customer
organizations.
We have trained well over100,000 people.
(08:12):
So for us it's pretty easynowadays because we can share
the success stories.
We can share what other peopleare doing, what other
organizations like you are doing, how successful they have been,
how they are measuring thesuccess, how they are getting
the results.
So it's actually nowadays mucheasier.
But it's all about like gettingpeople excited, showing them
(08:36):
what they can do with AI,showing them what AI can do for
them.
But after that it's superimportant, as I said earlier, to
start experimenting themselves.
And I think one thing to dothat is to go to real life use
cases as soon as possible,because if you are just
experimenting with the toolsavailable on web, you get some
(08:59):
ideas of what they could do withyou, but when you start working
with, for example, copilot withyour own data, then you can
finally start to realize, oh,this will actually help me, this
will actually free up my timeand, as you said for the podcast
, it frees you from the routineworks.
So the things that you had todo manually before, now you can
(09:20):
let AI automate them and you getto do more podcasts or spend
more spare time or whatever.
Mark Smith (09:28):
Yeah, what's your thoughts and how have you seen?
Over the last couple of months,microsoft introduced Microsoft
M365 Copilot Chat as the freeversion to complement or lead
into Microsoft M365 Copilot.
(09:48):
Have you seen the chat versionas an enabler inside
organizations that are perhapsresistant to getting on?
You know a paid subscription ofCopilot.
How have you seen the benefitof that particular SKU from
Microsoft?
Aki Antman (10:04):
Yeah, yeah, it's actually a super good thing for
our customers and for us as well, because we have been talking a
lot for years now that youshould give access to AI for
everyone and, of course, buyinglicenses for everyone.
To begin with, it could be toobig investment.
So now you can actually givethe access to Copilot chat for
(10:27):
everyone.
We can train them very quicklyand they can start using it and
start having that AI era mindset.
So in that way, it's superimportant.
You can also build agents andthen you can have them using
those, and to me, it's astepping stone towards the
Microsoft 365 Copilot that youcan actually use inside the
(10:47):
tools you use for your dailywork anyways, but you have to
remember that the Copilot chartis not only for us office
workers.
It's also for frontline workers, and this is one part that most
people seem to be missing,because tutors of the people of
the global workforce, they arefrontline workers and we should
give them AI tools as quickly aspossible, because they benefit
(11:11):
a lot from them.
Mark Smith (11:14):
Where are you seeing the benefits come in?
Are there, you know?
Do use cases jump to mind thatyou're seeing?
I suppose the light bulb comeon for people to all of a sudden
like, oh my gosh, this, I cando this, I can do that.
At what point are you kind ofseeing that transition moment
for people to really start to go?
(11:35):
You know what?
I can experiment with this.
I can try new things.
I want to try new things and Iwant to use it more in what I do
, not because somebody else'smanagement is saying I should do
it, but because I see the valuemyself.
Aki Antman (11:50):
Yeah, exactly, and that's the thing, because you
need to have the support fromthe top leadership.
We are seeing it from time totime that all those
organizations, our customers,where you have the support from
the top leadership and wherethey are actually using AI not
just promoting it, but using itdaily, the results are much
quicker, they are much better.
(12:10):
But, of course, we have to telleveryone, we have to show
everyone what is in it for me,how I can make my workday more
successful, easier for me, how Ican be more innovative with AI
and so on.
And, of course, for thefrontline people think about it
most of our global customers,their workforce usually speaks
(12:32):
20 languages, 50 languages, 70languages or whatever, and they
need to be able to support allthose people.
And nowadays, with theadvancements in the AI,
translations and using spokenlanguage and using multimodal
models, meaning that you canjust point your smartphone
camera to something and ask foradvice and then the AI will help
(12:55):
you.
And if it cannot, it's going toredirect you to real people and
a human being who can help you.
Even if you don't speak thesame language, you can still
have a conversation and you canget to help real time.
Mark Smith (13:09):
Yeah, this is incredible.
Now you've had what I thinkCopilot all up is about 18
months old now that it's been inthe market, you've obviously
seen a lot happen.
If we look to the future, andif you specifically look to the
future, where do you see wherepotentially we will be in 18
(13:31):
months time?
I'm not going to go for twoyears, five years, because I
just think that's who knowsright but in the next, you know,
even by the end of this yearand getting into 2026, where do
you think we're we're going tobe from a workplace um
enablement perspective, usingtools like co-pilot?
Aki Antman (13:50):
That's a very good question, and if you had asked
me for that five-year thing, Iwould have said I have
absolutely no idea.
18 months even.
That is hard to predict, but wewill actually see that we will
be typing a lot less, we will beusing the keyboard a lot less,
and I have been typing almostall my life, but I did learn how
(14:11):
to speak before I did learn totype.
So it's very natural for us andI can see myself nowadays using
AI more and more just by voiceor just through the user
interface, because too manytimes people think that chatting
with the AI is the best userinterface.
It's not.
It's most likely the worst, butin many cases it's still the
(14:33):
only one we have.
But that will be replaced byother user interface components,
whether they are like justtraditional Windows or whatever
graphical user interface,whether they are your smartphone
, whether they are your speech,whether it's your car, whatever.
But we will be using AI in somany ways other than typing into
(14:53):
the chat.
Mark Smith (14:56):
Tell me about you personally and your personal use
of AI, because I love theanalogy you used before.
I can't go to the gym andexpect to build muscle by
watching somebody else work outat the gym, and I just think
that's a poignant metaphor.
And I just see so many peoplein the AI space talking about AI
and then I drill in and askthem so how do you use it?
(15:17):
And they're like oh, you know,I know how to talk about it, and
I'm talking about Microsoftpeople in many situations.
They know how to talk about it,they know how to sell it, but
they're not using it likethey're not.
It's not their second nature touse ai in every part of their
day.
How do you use it?
Aki Antman (15:37):
uh, it was like five months ago.
This is a nice example.
I was invited to give a keynote, uh, to people in medicine
marketing and I was drivingthere and then I realized that I
have absolutely no idea whatmedicine marketing is.
And I'm going to give a keynoteto these people and I know what
I'm going to say about AI andstuff like that.
That I do know.
But medicine marketing, what isthat?
(15:59):
And then I just decided when Iwas driving, let's have a
discussion.
That was actually with Chutky PT, unwanted Voice back then it
had just been released and Idecided to have a conversation
with that, asking by the way,what is medicine marketing?
And then I got the overview andthen I was asking that I'm
giving this keynote to thesepeople about this and this and
(16:20):
this, what kind of questions Imight expect?
And then it gave me somequestions and, okay, here are my
answers.
Can you score them?
And I did that while driving tothe venue in 20 minutes.
And now I do know quite a lotabout medicine marketing.
I wouldn't have learned thatwithout AI.
Wow.
Mark Smith (16:39):
Any other ways you're using it?
Aki Antman (16:42):
Wow, there are quite many ways.
Actually, we just wrote a bookon AI as well and it's called
From Copilot to Commander and wehad to rewrite it a couple of
times because we were too busyto release it and of course,
everything went wrong so quickly.
So we used AI extensively andCopilot extensively to do
(17:03):
fact-checking, what's outdatedtoday and stuff like that, do
all the back-end research, dolike the referencing and stuff
like that.
But also when we had to rewriteso many paragraphs and chapters
because of the delays on ourown side, copilot was invaluable
in that and also part of thebooks.
(17:24):
We just spoke with Rosun Boyd,the other author.
We were just having teamdiscussions with co-pilot on and
then we prompted the book fromthose discussions partially.
So actually there areparagraphs in the book where no
one has typed a word.
Mark Smith (17:41):
Yeah, I get that.
It's one of the exercises.
Today I was doing the same typeof thing with my co-author.
We just we jumped on teams, welooked at a particular chapter
we were going to write, weriffed on what we thought should
go in the chapter and why itwas important, and brought
together our experiences, usecases and then co-pilot, you
(18:04):
know, summarizes, you discussthis.
This was the kind of flow andthen, of course, you go well, is
that the best flow for thechapter?
And well, you should reorderthis.
And is there any gaps?
And it's like it's incrediblehow it has become a sparring
partner in, in organizing yourthoughts and the way you're
thinking.
(18:25):
That is not just about your ownpersonal thinking, but how is
this going to be perceived byothers?
That is potentially going toconsume it.
Does it make sense to them?
And are you leaving somethingelse out because you've got a
gap in your thinking onsomething?
And, of course, I love the wayit can bring in that kind of
other ideas and opinions to yourown.
Aki Antman (18:48):
Exactly, and while you do that, you always learn
something.
So if you were just writing, bytyping in your word, you are
just organizing your thoughtsand maybe you get some new ideas
, but you don't actually learnanything, you don't get anything
new.
But when you talk about yourwriting with AI, you actually
learn something by writing.
It's amazing.
And one other idea it wasactually last night that Mr
(19:11):
Trump announced those newtariffs which are terrible, by
the way, but I was watching theannouncement, it was late
Finnish time and I was actuallydeploying an army of agents to
do the research for me.
So what are the implications tothe Microsoft partners here in
(19:31):
Finland, here in the EuropeanUnion, in the EMEA area and
globally, and also what are theimplications to our business and
our main customers?
And I had that research bymorning when I woke up and I was
actually able to send a plan toour CAO on how this affects us
early today morning.
(19:52):
Without AI and agents, thatwould have been completely
impossible.
I would have needed a team of30 people, which I don't have,
to do that research.
Mark Smith (20:01):
That's amazing.
Are you building your agentswith a specific tooling, in
other words, a you know um?
Are you using microsoft orusing, you know um, the swarm
feature in chat, gpt, or usingsomething from claude?
What's your, what's your toolof choice at the moment for the
agents that you're buildingusing yourself?
Aki Antman (20:23):
uh, when I do something myself, I use quite
many tools.
I like to experiment with them.
As I said earlier, it's a hobbyas well, but mostly I'm
actually using chat, kpt on myspare time when I'm not working
with company data.
But of course, the most of thethings we do we I need access to
my work information, all thedocuments and stuff like that,
(20:44):
and and then of course, we arebuilding most of the agents, and
I'm building most of the agentswith Copilot Studio.
Of course, we are doing somethings with also AI Foundry as
well, and we are definitelybuilding custom code, custom
engine agents as well, utilizingwhatever language models or
whatever small or large languagemodels and other AI tools, like
(21:07):
whether they are machinelearning or computer vision or
whatever in the background aswell.
So it's a big mix.
But I would say that on anygiven organization in the next
12 months, I would say that 90%of the HSA are built with
low-code, no-code tools, mostlyCopilot Studio, which is getting
better all the time, and only10% or something like that will
(21:28):
be built by nerds like us usingPro Code.
Mark Smith (21:32):
Aki, it's been so good talking to you.
Time has flown, such aninteresting topic.
I'm loving the stories that youtell and your experience.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you, time really flieswhen you're having fun, and I
(21:53):
did have a lot of fun talkingwith you.
Thank you about great questions.
Hey, thanks for listening.
I'm your host businessapplication mvp mark smith,
otherwise known as the nz365 guy.
If you like the show and wantto be a supporter, check out
buymeacoffeecom.
Forward slash nz365guy.
Thanks again and see you nexttime.
Thank you you.
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