Episode 733: AUKUS, Australia, Alliances & the Pacific, with Gray Connolly

Yes, September is Australian Appreciation Month on the Midrats Podcast. Building on our discussion earlier this month with Liz Buchanan, we are returning to the perspective from the Antipodes with returning guest Gray Connolly.

From Afghanistan, to the Antarctic, to the approaches to the Arctic through the Pacific, we’ll have a broad-reaching discussion of allied national security concerns from the Australian perspective.

Gray Connolly served as a Naval Intelligence officer in the Royal Australian Navy. He graduated from the Royal Australian Naval College and holds the King’s Commission. 

Gray is a graduate in Arts (Honours - History) from the University of Sydney and in Law (Dean’s Merit List) from the University of New South Wales.

Gray served previously in Asia and the Middle East, including service in the South China Sea, the Indian Ocean, the Arabian Sea, the Gulf of Oman, the Persian Gulf, East Timor, and the Middle East. Gray served in the Iraq War (two deployments) and Afghanistan.

Gray is now a Barrister-at-Law in Sydney. He has advised the Australian Government on national security and public law matters and served as a Senior Member of the federal Administrative Appeals Tribunal.

He keeps a blog at “Strategy Counsel” and his Twitter is @GrayConnolly

All of Gray’s comments and opinions are his alone and do NOT represent the view of the Australian Government.

Summary

In this episode of Midrats, the discussion revolves around Australia's national security, particularly in the context of the AUKUS agreement, its relationships with major powers like China and India, and the importance of alliances. Gray shares insights on the public support for AUKUS, the challenges posed by Australia's geographic isolation, and the historical context of Australia's military contributions. The conversation also touches on the complexities of Australia's relationship with Indonesia and the implications of China's influence in Antarctica.

Takeaways

• AUKUS is popular among Australians, reflecting a bipartisan agreement.
• Australia's geographic isolation necessitates strong military capabilities.
• The AUKUS agreement is crucial for Australia's national security.
• Australia's resource management is complicated by economic dependencies.
• Alliances are vital for Australia due to its size and population.
• Australia values its historical military contributions to global conflicts.
• The Australian character emphasizes internationalism and support for allies.
• China's influence in Antarctica poses significant concerns for Australia.
• Australia's relationship with Indonesia has improved over the years.
• Cricket serves as a cultural bridge between Australia and India.

Chapters

00:00: Introduction to MidRats and Australia Appreciation Month
02:30: AUKUS Agreement: A National Security Perspective
03:50: Public Support for AUKUS in Australia
06:20: Australia's Resource Management and Economic Dependencies
08:28: The Importance of Alliances in National Security
10:00: Australia's Geographic Challenges and Military Needs
11:04: Australia's Commitment to the Alliance
12:32: The Impact of European Defense Spending on Australia
13:00: Australia's Historical Military Contributions
15:22: The Australian National Character and Internationalism
18:23: Concerns Over China's Influence in Antarctica
40:06: Australia's Relationship with Indonesia55:04: Australia's Growing Ties with India

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:29):
Welcome to mid Rats with sal from Commander Salamander, an
Eagle one from Eagle Speak at Seer Shore your home
for a discussion of national security issues and all things maritime.
And good day everybody. Welcome back to another edition of
mid Rats. We're really happy to have you a board today,
and if you're with us live, i'd like to invite
you to go ahead and find the chat room hop

(00:51):
right in there. That's a great opportunity to talk about
what we're talking about here, and of course if you
have questions you'd like for us to address our guests.
The invitations always there put in the chat room. Mark
and I are monitored during the courses show and we'd
be glad to fold in your great ideas and all.
As always, if you're new to mid Rats or you
just haven't taken the step, go over to iTunes, Spreaker, Spotify, wherever,

(01:13):
find us where they're waiting for you and subscribe that way.
If you can't join us live, you can catch us
at time that's more.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
Convenient to you.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
But rolling into today's show, it's kind of funny. We
didn't do this intentionally, but previous mid Rats we had
Lizbeth cannon on are are key, we Australian Australian key.
I'm not sure how it works. And with today's guests,
it seems like we've decided for September to be Australia
Appreciation Month month here on the mid Rats podcast. And

(01:42):
that's all right. It's a good topic to talk about,
especially with today's guests. Coming back, we're going to cover
the national security view from that three hundred and sixty
degree approach, because there's important things not just for Australia,
but for the Five Eyes community and all all our
alliance of Western nations down there around it. And coming

(02:03):
back is Gray Connolly. Gray served as a naval intelligence
officer in the Royal Australian Navy and advisor to the
Australian government on national security of public law matters, and
he's now a barrister at law in Sydney. And all
of Gray's comments and opinions are his alone and do
not represent the view of the Australia Government. Gray, welcome
back to Madreds. Thank you very much South for having

(02:26):
me back on what is the greatest English speaking national
security discussion platform. Well, we will just get that tattooed
and could the kind of advertise this is one of
the subjects we were going to talk about, we might
as well we'll kick it off. When I was doing
my little bit of show prep here, I was like,
you know what, how many years it been?

Speaker 2 (02:46):
Three years or four years? I actually look got last week.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
Was the fourth anniversary of the signing of the Aucice
Agreement Australia UK US. Your pillar one was the submarine,
Pillar two was other technologies, And at least from the
American point of view, we were a little late to
the game. But the United States was in World War
Two for three years eight months. In a few days,

(03:12):
I think it was like twenty six days, and so
we're already well passed the length of one World War
since the August Agreement has been signed. And being that
it's the A in August is Australia. From the Australian
point of view, this very very important and especially on
a per capita expenditure basis, a very expensive but needed
proposition for Australia's national security. How is a view here

(03:37):
at the end of September of twenty twenty five.

Speaker 3 (03:39):
August is interesting because it is actually broadly popular among
the Australian Papal.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
They've actually done polling on this.

Speaker 3 (03:47):
Moster Strathens support it and the lock so it is
actually popular at a certain level, particularly among that part
of the Australadian commentariat that is, if not pro China,
it's at least certainly afflicted with a degree of anti Americanism.
There is a lot of noise complaining about ORCUS and
the costs, but the case for AUCUS for a country

(04:07):
like Australia is just overwhelming. Australia is a massive island
at the bottom of the world. We have enduring requirements
for capabilities that only in nuclear submarines can provide. That
we have not had them up until now is really
a failure of past governments. But the fact that we're
pressing ahead with the acquisition of nuclear submarines is obviously

(04:28):
very good.

Speaker 2 (04:28):
So AUCUS is actually bipartisan. At the national level.

Speaker 3 (04:32):
In the Parliament, both the governing Labor Party and the
opposition coalition parties agree on it. So from the Australian perspective,
AUGUST is one of those things to be serious we
all agree on. Obviously, we would all like things to
go much more smoothly, but these are issues that are
very much to some degree beyond Australia's control. We we
don't control priority among the ards that are going to

(04:55):
be building them. And quite separately, shipbuilding across the Western
world is not so thing that we have done particularly well.
And I think my concern with the submarines and the
boat construction is that you want to keep you want
to keep the emphasis on the future and the capability
you're providing to people who are going to be paying
for it, and it's not a cheap capability to buy.

(05:16):
I absolutely con say that it's not a cheack capability
to buy, but we need to Obviously we want to
have more progress, but from Australian perspective, there's there's limits
to how much we can press because ultimately we're the customer,
not the manufacturer.

Speaker 4 (05:32):
Well, that's that's interesting. The the I guess he's the
premiere of Western Australia is Cook? Is that right?

Speaker 2 (05:40):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (05:41):
Yeah, he's he's off apparently off on going to visit
China and they're trying to you know, is I was
looking at what he was talking about. He's in favor
of Arcis. That's great, but he's also pushing sale of
iron ore to China, which is kind of ironic. They'll
use that to build more ships.

Speaker 3 (05:58):
I guess I can I just put this to you,
and it's some sort of framework. We're obviously a massive
island at the bottom of the world. The United States
and previously before that, obviously the United Kingdom is part
of the British Empire, are our major security partners.

Speaker 2 (06:11):
Our major customers.

Speaker 3 (06:12):
Though for our resources, which include obviously iron ore have
not been not just China, but pre World War Two
they was Japan. So, believe it or not, in the
nineteen thirties, you know, we were selling we were selling
iron to the Japanese.

Speaker 2 (06:26):
And you know, what can I say?

Speaker 3 (06:28):
We're a massive island the bottom of the world that
has resources that other countries can only dream of having,
and that creates in you, I guess, a resources curse
where you have to you know, you have to sell
those to.

Speaker 2 (06:40):
The world, and unfortunately, or fortunately or unfortunately.

Speaker 3 (06:42):
One of your biggest customers is almost also a country
that you have difficult relationships with. I mean, that's just
something that Australia is in that world with It's a bit,
you know, it's a bit like having it's not quite
the same, but it's like Germany and NATO was always
a big problem in so far as Germany was dependent
on Russian gas. You know, we it is something we
are aware of as a country that is a problem,

(07:03):
but all of our politicians who got us to the
political affiliations, we all try to manage it as best
we can and as realistic way as we can.

Speaker 4 (07:10):
Yeah, I mean, I understand that given the amount of
iron ore we all have down there, my gosh, it's
a lot. But I think it's also a good thing
to have shipyards located in a country that has that
much iron ore, because that's useful for the construction of
these these these ships we're looking at building down there,
so that I think that's a that's a benefit. One

(07:31):
of the things you did talk about, though, was the
the was talked about is the ability of August to
get combined. Thinking, uh that you know, nobody has to
go solo now, and everybody doesn't have to go to
their own direction. If if it's all joined in together,
then we can we can approach this as a as
a much larger hole than than uh, just individual countries

(07:55):
started trying to do their thing, And is that one
of the big selling points in Austria. This we're going
to benefit.

Speaker 3 (08:02):
Yes, I think it is because we like to do
things in partnership with allies. Obviously, Australia we are this
massive island at the bottom of the world. I always
like to put that to people. From Sydney to Perth
is further than London to Moscow. So you know, Australia
is big. It's hard to explain this to people, but
to give you an idea if you grew up in
Australia like I did, and by the virtue of what

(08:24):
my father did, often travel with my parents. Leaving Sydney
Airport to actually leave Australian airspace takes about five or
six hours, so you're actually not even out of Australia
airspace until about five or six hours, and that's on
a seven four seven. So just to give you an
idea of the size of Australia, it's a massive country.
Now that because of that, we're always looking for friends
and allies, and so we like to do things with

(08:45):
our friends and allies, particularly a project of this magnitude.
It's really something that we could probably never hope to
do on our own. We certainly don't have the We've
never operated a nuclear submarine, so's it's a step up
from our conventional submarine experience, and so we're obviously going
to want to do this with friends allies. Obviously Britain
in America we have an intimate national security relationship going
back it'll be a century soon. We have this very

(09:07):
very close relationship, and I think orcust will simply be
a platform upon which we build other relationships that are
equally deep and enduring. And I think that's something that
we'll have a lot of support across the Australian population,
despite whatever you might see among say broken people in
the media.

Speaker 1 (09:27):
It's interesting, you know, there's a triangle here between the
size of Australia, which is for American audience, it's just
roughly the size of the continental US, stripped now to
Alaska and China, Froudian slip Hawaii. But it has a population.
If you took the Netherlands and Belgium and combined it,
it'd be like a million population more than Australia. So

(09:50):
it's roughly that that that population, and if you super
if you took Netherlands and Belgium together, I think it
might be the size of Tasmania. I don't know. I
haven't looked at it. MA really small.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
The reason why it's just very important for American artist
to understand this is if you have twenty seven million
people in an island continent that is roughly that's actually
I think bigger than the European Union.

Speaker 3 (10:12):
It just forces certain decisions upon you. So we're obviously
getting nuclear submarines. A generation or two ago. We bought
the F one to eleven bomber off the drawing board.
It hadn't even flown. We bought it because we needed
something like that capability. We operated two aircraft carriers during.

Speaker 2 (10:28):
The Vietnam War. We fought in the Vietnam War.

Speaker 3 (10:30):
Because we valvied the American Alliance so much that we
thought it's very very important to support the Americans even
where it's very difficult. So we're in Korea, Vietnam, you know,
we're also in Malaya supporting the British. At the same time,
we like to think of ourselves as a lifter, not
a leaner. Ally, we lift in the Alliance, we don't
lean on the Alliance. One of the big problems for us, though,
is that anyone who follows me on Twitter will see periodically.

Speaker 2 (10:51):
I go off on a little.

Speaker 3 (10:53):
Rat about the Europeans because one of the big problems
for a country like Australia is when Europeans are not
spending larger on defense, particularly on common weapons we all use.
It means the individual unit costs on buying few weapons
goes up. That affects a country like australianormously. So when
Europeans don't pull their weight in the Alliance, well, I

(11:13):
mean it affects others. That will affect Singapore, South Korea,
it effect Japan as well, but it affects us, particularly
because these are all common systems that we use as well.
So if the Europeans aren't pulling their weight, it's not
just bad for the Alliance, I imagine for an American perspective,
because you're always concerned about free laders, it's terrible for
us because unit costs of weapons that we buy and
systems we buy go up as well. So while we

(11:34):
are this big island at the bottom of the world,
we're very sensitive to things that happen within the Alliance.
We're very sensitive to other allies not pulling their weight,
and so we always try to make clear that we
are pulling our weight. It's something that we try to do,
so you know, we deploy, we do everything we can
to sort of be a good sort of good friend
and ally it's also I think something in the Australian characteristic.

(11:54):
Australia is a big country that was settled by I
guess to certain rugged people, and we like to think
we pull our way and we do obit and we
don't leave our friends stranded. So we were one of
the last country, for instance, to leave Afghanistan. And so yeah,
that's just part of this driving makeup as well, that
sense that we have this big country at the bottom
of the world, the spos population. We need friends and

(12:17):
to show our friends how much we value them, we're
with them in all the difficult times.

Speaker 2 (12:21):
And it wasn't you.

Speaker 1 (12:24):
It's a couple of years ago somebody made a comment,
an Australian made an observation about some things along Europe
and like, pretty much, don't mind you're knitting over there
and you know, break break on that now. I think,
you know, you brought up something that a lot of people,
many people appreciate, but I don't think enough there are
some nations who should stick to their knitting, but Australia

(12:48):
does have a seat at the table when it talks
about European security. You know, you're talking about is it
national character or is it obligation. But you can go
back to the and a lot of it had to
do when you're part of the British Empire now part
of the Commonwealth, but fought shoulders shoulder with the Brits.
You fought shoulder shoulder with the Americans when the Brits weren't.
And in World War One and World War Two, I

(13:10):
don't know how many Australians were killed, but they especially
in North Africa. But I remember one time, driving across
the center of the Netherlands, I just happened to, you know,
he bump into war memorials all the time in Europe.
It was an Australian land caster crew that was shot
down and it crashed, and the little, you know, thousand

(13:30):
person village where it crashed, they had put up a
little memorial to the Australians that were in the plane. So,
you know, here's this plane full of people from the
other literally the other side of the planet, flying with
the RAF during World War Two, and of course during
World War One, you know, the Canadians and the Australians
were the first ones they liked to throw over the

(13:51):
probably because they were healthier than anybody else. So there
is a buy in with Australia, and I want you
to to pull a little bit of that for people
that haven't had the honor of serving with Australians. Is
there is something about It's not so much an obligation.
I think it is part of that Australian character that's

(14:13):
been around for a century, where it'd be very easy
to be the Switzerland of the southern part of the planet.
Just stay on our island and sell our iron ore
in our uranium to whoever brings the most money. But
for a relatively small population, just a couple million more
than the state of Florida and the US, there is
this internationalist bent towards leaning in with their with their

(14:37):
friends and family members.

Speaker 5 (14:39):
Well, yeah, it's it's it's it's it's part of that
SANSOV being a long way from home when strata is
still still even now with massive mcgration, we still obviously
have huge amounts of migration from Europe.

Speaker 3 (14:51):
And particularly the British AID so that sensus being a
long way from home and from having the ties of
home will pot of the British Empire. Wait, we fought
in the Sudan, we fought in the Boer War, supporting
the British because whereas I guess, had this inner conviction,
driven by geography, that we were part of a bigger
family and it was in all are interests for the
family to stick together and for the family to be strong.

(15:13):
And that really comes into the First World War in
the Second War, but it is there actually even before
the World wars. It's there really in how the country federates.
So Australia starts its life as basically six British colonies
on this big island at the bottom of the world,
and at the end of the nineteenth century, seeing all
of the drama around and particularly European colonial powers moving

(15:34):
into the Asia Pacific, they take the view that well,
a nation for a continent and a continent for a nation.
In other words, you have this island, we all share
the same language, you'll share the same origins.

Speaker 2 (15:44):
We may as well be our own country.

Speaker 3 (15:45):
And that's how the Commonwealth of Australia comes to federate
become an independent state in nineteen hundred and one. And
for Australians, when you talk about the culture, you have
to understand the country comes into existence in nineteen hundred
and one and then the First World War, and so
the First World War is kind of this blood sacrifice.
I don't want to sound flippant or summarizing it too brutally,

(16:08):
but it is this kind of blood sacrifice that becomes
part of the national story. So very much the Australian
identity is wound up in sort of like the sort
of diggers going ashore at Gallipoli, fighting the Turks, fighting everyone,
and sort of being the sort of shock troops on
the Western Front. There's this idea of the sort of
rugged Australian who is you know, stockman or a farmer.

(16:29):
I mean, in fact, I most Astraands came from cities,
but they still loved the idea that they were these
sort of rugged stockmen and farmers and miners coming out
of the mines and going off to fight in the
First World War. They'd not been soldiers for very long,
but they're obviously very good at it. Because there's a
natural sort of physicality and violence in the Australian character
that can be deployed in useful ways, and so we

(16:50):
have that sort of sense of that that culture of
a being a long way from friends, being a long
way from home, needing to survive, needing to be tough
and strong, and so it's led us into lots of
places and obviously into lots of wars. So we are
technically a young country, but we have a very very
long military history for that reason. And we're also we're
also a commercial country. We can't survive on our own,

(17:11):
so we have to sell our food, sell our resources,
sell our advanced manufacturing in the sense to the world.
So it creates in it that sort of international as
you say, that internationalism, that sense of understanding that you
have to be engaged with the world in which there
are only so many of you, and you have some
quite obvious ongoing vulnerabilities, which again is something that ORCAS
is meant to sort of help us to neutralize or

(17:33):
at least mitigate.

Speaker 4 (17:34):
Yeah, I've seen that there's some consternation in Australia by
caused by the Defense review of the ARCAS agreement that
Trump administration seems to be undertaking, and it's been interesting
to see that the response to that has been an increase,
or maybe it wasn't an increase, but at least more
money being devoted to the building of shipyards and other

(17:55):
facilities in the Perth area. And even King Charles got
involved when Trump was over there at a banquet that
King Charles said that Arcus was really important, that it
was tremendously helpful, innovative and vital collaboration. And your former
I guess he was a defense foreign former foreign minister Downer,

(18:16):
So that was tremendously helpful. Remark is King Charles compesce?
Is that tremendously helpful? I want to talk about Arcus.

Speaker 3 (18:23):
It is, And I forget King Charles is our king.
He's Canada's king as well. He wears many crowns, if
I can put it that way, and so he's our king.
We're a constitution monarchy. And the king saying that was very,
very helpful. I'm not sure. I'm obviously not close to it,
but I think to be fair to the to be
fair to understanding our friends. I think from an American perspective,
you always want to be careful that everyone is doing
what they said they would do. So I can understand

(18:44):
why Americans might want to review it. But I think
one of the problems with as again this is an
Australian differential, is I think Americans probably are so used
to everyone coming to them cap in hand, wanting handouts.
The facts that Australia has always been a cash buyer.
You know, we buy all our own weapons systems. We're
independently contracting country in that regard. So I imagine in

(19:05):
America there's a certain ally fatigue that sets in with
so many people with their hands out. I think I
think a lot of it's got to blame is the
Ukraine War, simply because Europeans have promised America for over
three years now, since February twenty twenty two, but this
time was different. They were really going to start pulling
their weights and still nothing has happened. And I imagine
we probably wear some of the collateral damage from Europeans

(19:30):
being so useless in some respects. So as an Australian,
we're a nation of people with broad shoulders, we sort
of take it on the chin and sort of accept
that this is going to be a process we're going
to have to go through with the Americans, because you
have other considerations, and as I said, you have other
mouths appearing.

Speaker 2 (19:46):
At your table banging their bowl, demanding.

Speaker 3 (19:49):
To be fed, whereas we're just sort of the humble
people waiting behind the counter, waiting on the other side
of the counter with our checkboard, trying to buy nucleus submarines.
So I imagine from an American's perpective, it is very
frustrating dealing with all your allies at all the different demands,
whereas Way simply a friendly, helpful customer who comes along
with pize bills on time.

Speaker 1 (20:08):
Yeah. I think I mentioned it in our conversation with
Liz earlier in the month. That not that I do
it to trigger my sub mariner friends here in the US,
but it's something I thought from day one that kind
of like what we talked about earlier. You know, big country,
lots of water, little population, you've got three hundred and

(20:29):
sixty degrees of concerns. When you've got to get there faster,
A nuclear submarine is the only way.

Speaker 2 (20:36):
To do it. And I've always said that.

Speaker 1 (20:37):
I know that, especially in the UK, but here in
the US as well, we have our submarine building capacity issues.
But I thought that if any nation deserves treatment such
as you know, hey, this hole coming out at on
this month is going to be the uss X. Let's
make it HMAS. If things go to crap in the

(21:00):
Western Pacific. You can't say this for most nations, but
the highest odds you can think of what nation is
going to come to the call, it's going to be Australia.
So if you need that, if you need ss IN capability,
it might come with a funny accent, but it's gonna
play and just like y'all did in Afghanistan, especially if
you're not gonna come with so many national caveats that

(21:21):
you're going to sit somewhere out off of Fiji and
track tuna. It's something that's worthwhile there and the SSN
part of August will let the technocrats and the engineers
work that.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
You know.

Speaker 1 (21:33):
That's the pillar one. But something that gets me excited,
and I especially liked this. It's not related to it,
but we're all it's all part of the same juice.
Recently we even had the rural Canadian Navy do a
Taiwan Straits transit. But Pillar two has to do with

(21:54):
advanced capabilities where not just the three August nations, but
other allies and friends we can work together with the
sun being greater than the whole. I know Japan who
has really made some interesting turns here in the last
eighteen months or so. Canada, even New Zealand has talked

(22:15):
about wanting to come in to play on Pillar two.
Even South Korea we'll want to. And when you look
at the you know, our version of what the future
of civilization should be. You have Australia, Canada, US, UK,
New Zealand, South Korea, You've got Japan. You have other

(22:37):
nations that aren't quote western, but they're Western adjacent. Seeing
this type of synergy that can build around Pillar two.
It's not just from a theoretical international relations warm fuzzy,
but from a security point of view from Australia, having
those people getting in rough and useful alignment that really
has to help the view of your security. Having those

(23:02):
brands willing to come in.

Speaker 2 (23:03):
Oh, it does.

Speaker 3 (23:04):
It very much does and under the it does you're
absolutely right, and under the former Prime Minister Tony ab
but for instance, he tried very much to get Japan
even further involved.

Speaker 2 (23:13):
And so you know that that relationship beyond the the
the the the.

Speaker 3 (23:18):
Five Eyes into a broader allied context is one that
obviously we would welcome. And also just the idea of
like Pillar two setting up and a platform for developments,
perhaps even in areas we haven't yet thought of, is
going to be very good. We just get used to
as a standard operating procedure, just working on these problems together,

(23:39):
and very much obviously America is always going to be
the senior partner.

Speaker 2 (23:41):
We will be very much guided by what the US does.

Speaker 3 (23:44):
But yeah, free country like for instance, you're mentioning obviously
Korea in Japan, I guess I think of somewhere like Singapore.
You're just absolutely vital You've done I'm sure like a
straight transit which is which can I say if anyone
who hasn't done it, is, well it's well worth doing.
It's prey get you get some idea of just how
the global economy works and why seapower is just so important.

(24:06):
It's a very important thing for a young person to do.
You just get a great I get you know, pushed
into your brain just how the global economy works and
particularly just the value of seapower. And I think Pillar two,
even if Pillar two for instance, only worked on I
know it's gotten a range of different I know it's
got a range of different technologies as looking at but
if it looks at something as simple as how do
we build chips better? You know that that to me

(24:29):
would be that to me would be great as well.
I mean, so, I think there's just so much there
for us as an alliance to focus on, and it's
all upside, it's all positive, it's all good.

Speaker 2 (24:40):
You know.

Speaker 3 (24:41):
Obviously the view from Beijing would be different, but but
but from our perspective it would be good. And it's
something I think would always be bipartised in Australia. It's
something that it just brings us all closer together in
building on the Five Eyes family. It sort of extends
the family relationship, if I can put it that way.

Speaker 4 (24:57):
Yeah, I was going to sell all my story because
when I was in Kosovo there were Australians there too.
They're a hoot, They're fun to work with and they
don't have, as he said, the caveats and they just
do what you have them to do and do.

Speaker 3 (25:13):
Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think it's one of
the things that I found very very strange when, for instance,
the domestic left here for instance, we're talking about September eleven.
I mean, there are large number of Australians that were
killed in the World Trade Center, simply because.

Speaker 2 (25:24):
A lot of Australians work in America.

Speaker 3 (25:26):
It's one of those things where we don't live in
a world to sort of neatly divided up nationalities. And
you know, if you speak English and you have any
sort of like trade or profession, very often your influenced
by what happened incognate trades and professions in the elsewhere
in the speaking world, and yeah, you have this sort
of common language and common reference points. I always explained

(25:49):
this to people. One of the most interesting things. I
was either at school or I was just at university,
but when the Oklahoma City bombing occurred, and I remember
listening to the radio and it was a labor for
our own minister at the time, Gareth Evans. I remember him
saying something along the lines of an event of this tragedy,
of this of this size happening in America is like
a death in the family. And I remember thinking about it,

(26:10):
because you know, you study these things, your relationship with
the Americans, I've had really interesting that this is a
labor foreign minister who obviously is from the left of politics.
But even so he still gets that whole notion that
the English speaking well does have this kind of alliance.
It sort of goes without saying that we kind of
see the world in broadly the similar ways, and we
all share that same descent from the British Empire that'spread

(26:33):
by the sea and that found it all our different places,
and so yeah, I think it's just an interesting point
that I don't think people understand it, and it's often
very hard for people who are outside it to understand
I guess how intimate it is because it's ultimately based
on trust.

Speaker 2 (26:45):
It's ultimately based on the trust that all of us
have as allies and friends. It really is unique.

Speaker 1 (26:51):
And I like, I did not know about that comment
from about it being a death in the family, and
that's spot on. You know, we all go back to
the mother country, but like all families, we all don't
think the same. We have we have areas of disagreement,
we have different views of the same problem. But at
the end of the day, you know, coming from our

(27:13):
same route, call it the anglosphere if you so desire.
I always like that term because it reminds that we'd
all have a common cultural reference going back to the
United Kingdom. But in the military sense, we have the
five eyes. We have UK, US, Australia, New Zealand, Canada.
That's really the core. I think in the British actually

(27:36):
had a term for the you know, we were one
of the colonies, but we broke free. But we've all,
we've all, we've all kissed it made up over that.
But when you look at those our five governments right now,
three out of the five are and you know, push
the domestic politics aside. We all have our little tickle
fights over it. That's fine, but when you look in

(27:56):
a broad sense, three of the five of those countries
are ruled by center left governments and two of the
five are run by center right governments. So there's going
to be some disagreement, like any scene mentioned in comments. Australia,
I mean Australia New Zealand has a no nuke policy,
little trivia thing. When I was a junior and uh

(28:18):
in undergrad my my turn paper was my professor didn't
think it was funny.

Speaker 2 (28:24):
I did.

Speaker 1 (28:25):
I called it the Kiwi that roared. It was right
after they had that, you know, had their no nwke policy.
I thought it was a great term paper.

Speaker 2 (28:31):
He did not.

Speaker 1 (28:32):
But the uh, there is a broad bipartisan five nation
view of national security and how we should work together.
From your view, where is that common ground that you
see inside the Five Eyes community? And where are those
little friction points that everybody needs to be conscious that

(28:55):
we are going to be friction points. But we don't
intentionally or unintentionally add to that heat and friction on
those points that we may disagree.

Speaker 3 (29:04):
Okay, well, I'm always this is not me being optimistic,
but I always say to people whenever someone complains about, say,
relationships with between Australian America, and I always say, if
the alliance with the Americans could survive GoF Whitlam and
Richard Nixon being in office at the same time, it
can survive anything. And if I mean, like whatever squabbles
occurred now at the moment, that nothing could beared to

(29:25):
that time. I mean I think in terms of commonality. Obviously,
we all value of the open sea. We all value
will survive by our trade in ninety percent of the
world's trade goes by sea. So we all have an
enduring interest in maintenance of control or command of the seas.
So I think that is one is one obvious area
where we all share similar views. We obviously have shared
similar views in terms of the importance of our intelligence

(29:48):
and security relationship, which is I think unparalleled in human
history in terms of its intimacy and the degree to
which it allows us to better secure our populations and
our homelands. This isarticularly in a period where right now
we have large numbers of just human transits through different
countries at the time, we've never needed to have closer
relations on all those things. It's not just about from

(30:10):
a military perspective or a direct action perspective, it's really
from that I think basic customs and immigration perspective as well.
Just do you know who is coming into your country?
Do you know where they're part of? I think those
sorts of things are just very very important. Where are
the friction areas? Look, they're probably always going to be
around things like intellectual property.

Speaker 2 (30:28):
Who gets to use what? I mean? This was the
greatest endearment to our American friends.

Speaker 3 (30:31):
You know what is going to be no form from
an American perspective, and what is going to be shared
among allies?

Speaker 2 (30:36):
And look, every alliance, every member of the Alliance has these.

Speaker 3 (30:40):
Issues, but I think probably the biggest friction point will
be I think probably the intellectual property, who gets to use,
what end of use agreements, those kinds of things. I
think though with Australia American they're probably less than in
others because our primary relationship is with the Americans. We
obviously have a very close Relationshipritish, but we don't, for instance,

(31:01):
like the British. We don't have exposure directly in the
same way to the Europeans in the way the British do.
And I have been surprised since since at least Brexit happened,
I have been surprised by the degree Europe really does
still look to Britain, like just in a sort of
general security role, it does still look to Britain for

(31:22):
so much leadership. I imagine this is something that occupies
Emanuel mccron's waking moments all the time. Apart from having
seventeen percent in approval ratings, but France really has not
taken that with Britain leaving the europinion, France has really
not stepped up and said we're going to take the
European Union as our own vehicle. And yeah, I've always
thought the French desire for the European Union was for

(31:45):
it to be their version of NATO. For the Americans,
it was to be the sort of multi multilateral camouflage
for what will be a national project. And always joke
with anyone French, you know, you should call it Project
Charlemagne or something like that. But yeah, the friend haven't
done that. And it's almost like, you know, we're in
this world where everyone talks about multipolarity, but still the

(32:07):
United States is the leader, Like I just whatever it says, Well,
we live in this multipolar world.

Speaker 2 (32:11):
You don't.

Speaker 3 (32:11):
You live in a world in which the United States
is still the dominant military power. It will be probably
for the rest of my life. The US dollar is
still the reserve currency. But the interesting thing about the
multipolar moment is just how unmultipolar it is. There's the
United States and there's a coalition of sort of I
guess revisionists, who, in my perspective and I have a
minority of this, aren't necessarily as united as everyone thinks

(32:34):
they are. So I think the I think the areas
of friction I think of vastly overstated because the benefits
of the aliants are just so overwhelming to it, particularly
if you've ever worked in it. The benefits of the
lants are just so overwhelming. It's just should go without saying.

Speaker 4 (32:48):
I think it's interesting you've talked about some of the
restrictions on information we shared with our allies. There's a
bill that passed the United States House called the Armorbill,
which has aimed it, and it's been for the US
Senate now, which is where they had to build. It
was similar to that already. Anyway, this is this is
to open up some of those relationships, some of the
sharing of information, some of the release of you know,

(33:13):
no longer needing to get approval of Congress for every
single act that would happen under ACAS, no need to
to make. It would expedite licensing to include retransfers. There's
a lot of stuff in this. It's a very short bill,
but it would it would allow for a greater, much
more easy access to the information that we would all

(33:33):
need to make this accuss thing work.

Speaker 2 (33:35):
Yeah, I mean it was inspiring to me, and I
defer to you in Salom this but it was a
very funny story I was told once and this wasn't
in any military spending. This is.

Speaker 3 (33:43):
I think a lecture once someone someone was talking about
just the experience of working with the Pentagon and they said,
it doesn't really matter, Hey, the president is he said,
he said, everyone has to bow before what this the
lecturer just fid described as the iron kernels, and he said,
just there's this network of six officers and the Pentagon
who basically have the approval stamp or the rejection stamp.

(34:05):
Everyone has to deal with these people. It doesn't matter
who the president is, doesn't matter who anyone else is.
Everyone who is kind of at the mercy of these people.
And it is kind of funny. It's like it's I mean,
it's not funny, but it is kind of funny in
the sense of you imagine like going back to the
Roman Empire. You know, you're having to deal with some
you know, Caesar has said okay, but you still have
to have some sort of junior legott or someone with
a stamp.

Speaker 2 (34:25):
To approve things. And it's sort of it is a
bit like that. I mean, I don't want to have stayed.

Speaker 3 (34:30):
I'm sure it's improved and it's in the same in
the ten or fifteen years so I heard that story,
but yeah, it is still one of those things. I mean,
and to be fair, to be fair, as an Australian
looking at America, you do operate this vast sort of
military relationship with all these different countries on Earth. You
have to be very careful what you do and do
not allow that relationship to involve.

Speaker 2 (34:48):
So I completely understand that from very perspective. But I
think those sort of really minor, petty frictions are the
biggest problems. I don't think. I don't think there's anything ideological.
I don't. I just do not see how we see
the world particularly differently. I think we see a lot
of the things very similar way.

Speaker 3 (35:02):
I do think, to be fair, because I've criticized, to say,
someone like Keir Starmer a lot, I think I do
feel sorry for the British in the sense that they
are still dragged into European things that a Britain outside
the European Union should be able to leave, to say,
France and Germany. I mean, the fact that the British
seemed to carry so much of the load in Ukraine
as part of Alliance.

Speaker 2 (35:22):
It's just bonkers to me. It just makes no sense
to me.

Speaker 3 (35:25):
But Europeans steadfastly talk about wanting to step up in
the world and yet steadfastly do nothing to step up.
It's just crazy. They're they're the ultimate sort of o
beast person who's promising to lose weight and join the gym,
but it's always gonna happen tomorrow.

Speaker 1 (35:41):
You gave me a good lap talking about the Iron Kernels.

Speaker 2 (35:46):
A few years ago.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
I'm a fan of weird old British series. But there's
an old British series called Yes Minister, and I always
thought there could be there's a lot of comedic potential
of the Pentagon where you have these senior se s
and these iron Kernels in the Pentagon, you know, acting
the British bureaucracy like you saw in Yes Minister. Kind

(36:11):
of like Mark helped me out, what was the story
of the Bradley at a movie that came out, The
Pentagon Wars. Yeah, kind of like that. It's it's it's
true there is makes Some call it the deep State,
but the Pentagon has it as much as anybody else. Well,
I think I one to touch on. So you said
we're gonna do three hundred and sixty degrees, So let's
let's go down and go from one six zero to

(36:32):
two two five from Australia is when you look at
a map of where China has her basis and Antarctica,
uh three, three of the five that I found is
right south of Australian And if you dig around a bit,
you you find out that Australia has been very involved

(36:53):
for for a long time with the People's Republic of
China and their desire to get down in the Antarctica.
Because every nation, if you take a wedge, Australia has
arguably more concerned with what happens from Mitch Shores to
the shores of Antarctica than any other nation. And one
thing that we all suffered from our work through was

(37:13):
a little bit of shaping but also optimism of what
we call here the China Doves, especially during the nineteen nineties.
You know, China's rise is gonna be great for everybody.
And it makes the news even over here in the
States that Australia has had a challenge with the PRC, spies,

(37:34):
bribing corruption. We see that all over the place. But
in the last and I'll let you de find what
year it is, but you do get the feeling that
it's been a few years since the general consensus of
Australia was the China doves were wrong. Now we have
some concerns. Talk for a little bit about the view
from Australia with the PRC's interest in Antarctica and how

(37:57):
they have, at least from an academic point of view,
they have been well meshed with the Australian Antarctic adventures.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (38:05):
I will answer that in as diplomatically as I can,
because this is just my opinion. Australia, like all Western countries,
but particularly Australia, and probably the only comparisons to this
obviously Canada and the US, is that we have had
a we have had this problem that for instance in Australia.
Obviously Australia's had a very large amount of Chinese migration.

Speaker 2 (38:26):
And Chinese jasper migration.

Speaker 3 (38:29):
So migrants to Australia who are Chinese ethnically will often
not come from say China, but they might come from
say Singapore or Malaysia or Indonesia. So we have like
jasper Chinese as well. There was very much of you
in the nineties and the early two thousands, as did
were everyone else, that everything.

Speaker 2 (38:44):
Would be fine.

Speaker 3 (38:45):
China, China's greatness would be accommodated peacefully in the world system,
et cetera, et cetera, blah blah blah, at infinitum. That
sort of all comes apart in probably the as far
as Australian concerned, in the last decade, probably the tiethosand
and eight Beijing Olympics was probably the high point of that,
and then it sort of started to come apart from that.

(39:06):
I realized for Americans probably should have started to come
apart when the EP three was brought down on hein
An Island in two thousand and one, but things were
a little bit longer here. At the same time, we
have the problem, as I think every Western country does have,
is that you have a very interested commercial sectors for
whom China is not any kind of adversary, but it's

(39:26):
just simply a market. We also have a lot of
ex politicians who are in the business of lobbying and
trading off their former glories, for whom they become an
de facto China lobby in Australia. And it's a really
big problem because you've even seen touches of it among
people who were diplomats, and you're starting to get quite
concerned that it's one thing for a politician who may

(39:48):
not be the brightest bulb in the Christmas tree, it
may be one thing for them to sort of go
on to the payroll of like lobbying. For another thing,
if you're starting to have say diplomats or anyone like
he's seriously in the national security procracy going to do
the same. And that's probably the great concern from the
personnel site. In terms of Antarctic itself, if you look
at a map of a chart of the world, obviously
it's due south through the Southern Ocean. It's very important

(40:10):
for us for a number of reasons. One is Southern
Ocean is actually has a life amount of very valuable
fishing grounds. So that's what's one great concern China. China
invading Australia's Exclusive economic zone to fish and to basically
plunder our foodstocks because China has a justperateneath for protein.
That is actually a very serious concern for Australia, as

(40:31):
would be for any country who has this problem. The
other big problem is obviously China is a great funder
of research through university, so and if you are operating,
say like an academic program that focuses on Antarctica and
you're struggling to get government funding. It's another thing altogether
for your university to be approached by some Chinese government
related organization that is very very well funded and says, well,

(40:52):
don't worry about going to your government. We instead, we'll
be very happy to fund you as a joint Chinese
Australian research expedition. That and through the osmosis of human
relationships naturally China will learn a lot about not just Antarctica,
but how we do things, how we see Antarctica and
the light. So it is a really really big problem,
and I think as at both poles, both our nations

(41:16):
have issues with how we have managed that. We've been
diverted to other things which perhaps do not matter as much,
and attention has not been on things that do. And
you see this, for instance, there's no real equivalent in
southern Hemishire. But obviously the use by the Russians, for instance,
of the Northern Sea Route to connect Russia and China
and to save an enormous amount of time, space and

(41:36):
money an expense in movie shipping, that's just something that
I think obviously we would have at another time been
much more heavily focused on, and only now has been
focused upon.

Speaker 1 (41:47):
So I.

Speaker 3 (41:49):
Just think the both poles in some respects are both
for all of the five eyes are going to become
much more important as time goes by.

Speaker 1 (41:56):
You know.

Speaker 3 (41:57):
It's why, for instance, you know your discussion with Lisb
you can and about Greenland is just so important because
of its key pivotal role in not just now.

Speaker 2 (42:05):
But you know it's pivotal on the Second World War
as well. You can't you.

Speaker 3 (42:09):
Can't avoid the geographic imperatives that we all have to
live by.

Speaker 4 (42:14):
Well, I was just a short time about Chinese protein
needs and thinking about the fishing issue, which is global.
I was thinking about it. Put in my head the
Chiney and the Australian sheep exports to the Middle East,
and I was wondering if has anybody that's the Chinese
eat lamb and other products.

Speaker 2 (42:35):
Experts they do?

Speaker 3 (42:37):
I mean, the reason, the reason for live sheepex was
gonna be very sensitive. This is a very very big
issue in Australia.

Speaker 2 (42:43):
And I am.

Speaker 3 (42:44):
Conflicted because a good friend of ours is a very
strong advocate for live sheep exports and I myself am
somewhat animal friendly. So like all anglers, I think it's
Gordon Gecko and wall Street. He says about wasps. He says,
wasps they love animals, but they hate people. There's a
there's a very very funny story like that in Willstream.
But I mean, I'm very sensitive on the live sheep

(43:06):
exports because I think there are significant animal rights concerns there.
But but you know, we do it because they don't
have necessarily facilities to refrigerate meats in the same way
say China does. China has very advanced ability to say,
receive frozen meats and to freeze and then it's on
Zealot So to some degrees, live sheep exports are a

(43:27):
technology issue also, to be fair, in Middle East live
sheet may also be halal food issue that they don't
trust anyone else to have properly halal slaughtered them animal,
so that's something as well. But but Chinese do we
eat our proteins. I certainly our lamb and our beef.

(43:47):
And if any of any of the fast mid rats
audience has never tried a Mongolian lamb, I urge it
upon them. It's a delicious mountain. So particularly Australian lamb.
Can I say so yes, so no, No, this is
an issue. I mean again, we export food.

Speaker 2 (44:03):
I mean. The one reason, just to take a sengu
one reason for instance, that I am probably more of
a small age hawk on China than most people. I'm
not saying friendly or any small ageork is just the
problems for China of mounting any kind of war, given
their problems with energy and their problems of food. You know,
two things that two things that for instance America doesn't

(44:25):
really have to worry about. Yeah, they're just enormous.

Speaker 3 (44:29):
And I think one of the reasons why I differ
from most people on the China Russia point of view
is the Chinese and the Russians came closest to nuclear
war of any two great powers, much closer than the
kup of Missile crisis.

Speaker 2 (44:40):
In nineteen sixty nine.

Speaker 3 (44:42):
And I think one of the reasons why China wants
Russia to stay in the war in Ukraine for as
long as possible is China wants the Russian military as
as brutalized by that war as it possibly can, because
I think longer term, the Chinese would look at Eastern
Russia as farmland at large parts of how Eastern RUSSI
would be finelined. China already laces large amounts of Russian

(45:04):
territories Finland. I think the idea that China wouldn't be
thinking days out solution to our price chain problems right there.

Speaker 2 (45:09):
It's to our north.

Speaker 1 (45:11):
Yeah. I agree with you one hundred percent on that.
People think Dragon Bear is a relationship like the US
and Australia, It's absolutely not. It's a completely different transactional
type of relationship. And the Chinese have three or four
other things they would like to do to Russia besides
the friends with them. Yeah, looking at at other nations

(45:35):
that concern both of us, but especially Australia. One of
the guys I spent a lot of quality time with
in Kabul was Royal Australian Air Force and he always
was chattering on about well at Butterworth, I did this
at Butterworth, I did that. I was like missus, Butterworth's
is a pancake company in the US. What is this Butterworth?
And it was the former art Royal Air Force in

(45:57):
Royal Australian Air Force. But there's a partnership at an
air near Panang and Malaysia Butterworth that Australia historically operates
out and Malaysia that most people familiar with kind of
surround Singapore because they didn't want Singapore and Singapore to
want them. Lots of fun stories there. But Singapore has
a population. Of correction, Malaysia has a population of thirty

(46:20):
six million, half again as as the larger as Australia
plus or minus. However, between Malaysia and Australia is especially
when you look at demographics, it's just going to get
larger and larger. There's a nation ten times the population
of Australia called Indonesia, eighty four million souls, and a
lot of very interesting things have been happened in Malaysia

(46:41):
and fro From an American point of view, unless you
watch the movie A Year Living Dangerously, very few people
know about Indonesia. But having that large of a country
between you and everything to the north, what is that?
How is that relationship with Indonesia developing? From the Australian perspective?

Speaker 3 (46:58):
Okay, To answer question of our massive neighbor with whom
we now have good relations, I have to go back
twenty five or so years to when I was a
young man My first deployment anywhere was to Ease t
Moor in nineteen ninety nine two thousand as part of
the Stabilization slash Operation Warden Intervention Force, and that was

(47:24):
a very difficult time Australia. Indidonesia had had Okayish relations
at different times and difficult relationship with others.

Speaker 2 (47:32):
So Indonesia becomes independent from the Dutch after the Second
World War.

Speaker 3 (47:37):
Australia had supported that to some degree or bee at
a large part of Australian opinion also was very cautious
about the Dutch leaving, as they would be about say
the British leaving. We'd like to have European powers around us.
So the Dutch leave, Indonesia becomes a republic. Indonesian Republic
comes into the presidency of Skanokano tries to have the
sort of non aligned movement, so you have the band

(47:59):
Dunk conference in the mid nineteen fifties of non aligned
countries is actually in Indonesia, and obviously most things that
went under the banner of non aligned were Soviet or
Chinese backed at the time, and so Sikana has this
nonline movement in Bandung in Indonesia has like literally, the
Chinese turn up to that, the Indians turn up to that,
everyone turns up to that. And so there's great concern

(48:20):
in the fifties and into the early sixties about Indonesia
coming under Soviet and Chinese support. And it's again coming
back to my earlier point about we bought the F
one to eleven bomber off the drawing board before it flew.

Speaker 2 (48:32):
One of the reasons was Indonesia.

Speaker 3 (48:33):
We may need one day to have a nuclear capable
bomber that can strike Indonesia.

Speaker 2 (48:37):
I mean, there's nothing secret in this. You can find
this in any good history. That's why we bought the
F on eleven.

Speaker 3 (48:43):
Now nineteen sixty five there is military coup in Indonesia,
which again is the subject of in part of the
Year of Living Dangerously, which is a.

Speaker 2 (48:51):
Very good book on Indonesia.

Speaker 3 (48:52):
It's a good movie with mel Gibson and the military
takeover in Indonesia, and in many respects that is a
great thing for Australia. A former labor minister described the
collapse of Sakano and the advent of the New Order
government Indonesia as the greatest thing to happen to Australia's
security post the Second World War, and there's a lot
of truth in that. Since that time, however, there was
one issue that always was a problem, and that was

(49:14):
that in nineteen seventy five, as Portugal collapses into socialism,
it abandons its empire and the rest of the world
to some degree in place like Africa and in East
team Or, which is to Australia's northwest. East team Or
is invaded at the end of nineteen seventy five by
the Indonesians. A number of people are killed there who
Australian journalists as well as East tm Maris are slaughtered.

(49:35):
The Team Ares have a very strong based support in Australia.
Teamories were great supporters of ours the Second World War.
They helped Australian commandos survive against the Japanese and so
the Team Ares always have this pository of support in Australia.
At the end of the night is a conservative Prime
Minister John Howard. He writes to the Indonesians basically saying
this has been a problem for you. You've never liked governing

(49:57):
the place. Perhaps we should look at independents. Pastor shav
on independence. The Indonesians fund a series of militias that
go around killing average Team Maris to deter them from
taking part in the independence ballot. At the same time,
there were Team Maris who are pro Indonesian, so let's
not guild lilies here. There were Team Mariis who had
done quite well out of the Indonesian occupation were happy
to go along. But Team More eventually becomes independent. There's bloodshed,

(50:20):
and Australia intervenes in these Team More to support Team
Riis independence and it becomes a very very difficult part
of the Australian Indonesia relationship. However, Comma, when you have
the two thousand and four tsunami, the Boxing Day tsunami
in two thousand and four, and it causes devastating impact
to Indonesia, Australia helps Indonesia out a lot. I think

(50:41):
we loaned them some enormous sum of money. We might
have even given it to them actually to help with
the reconstruction. Ever since then relations in Indonesia have been
quite good. We try to focus on the areas we agree,
not disagree. One advantage for Australia is that Indonesia naturally
is not a pro China power. Indonesia, like Vietnam's country.
The region that is left to its own devices would

(51:02):
be anti China. I think we try to keep the
relationship with Indonesia on an even keel, and we try
and focus on what we can do together, rather than
focus on issues that might be difficult, like West Papio
or human rights or Indonesia executing drug smugglers, some of
whom are Australians that I don't think is something that
normal Australians care particularly about. But the yeah so we
try and focus on is what works between us. But

(51:24):
Australia lives next to an Indonesia that is last time
I checked, its population would have to I think be
around two hundred and eighty five million now give or
take them, in a country where it's very hard to
do a census, and you know, we have to manage
that relationship as best we can. I think it's one
of the reasons why I get slightly impatient with people
who complain about living next to other great powers. I mean,
if Australia can make living next to Indonesia work, and

(51:47):
Australia and Indonesia are two countries that are very different.
A former foreign minister of Indonesia once described Australia and
Indonesia living side by side as a couple sleeping in
the same bed but having different dreams.

Speaker 2 (51:58):
And I think there's some degree of that.

Speaker 3 (51:59):
But we have a closer relationship now, I think probably
than we've had in decades. Does that answer your question?

Speaker 4 (52:05):
Yes, Let's wonder a little further afield. How about how
about India? The US has been courting them on and
off for a long time. How's Australia doing with that?

Speaker 2 (52:15):
Okay, outstanding question.

Speaker 3 (52:18):
Australia's relationship with India is very deep, goes back all
the way back to the British Empire. Obviously, Australian troops
fought with Indian troops as part of the Empire two
World Wars. India also plays cricket. I have to emphasize
this to Americans, our cousins, but rebellious ones. Nonetheless, cricket
was the game of the British Empire, and cricket is

(52:38):
in India huge.

Speaker 2 (52:39):
In Australia, it's big ever.

Speaker 3 (52:41):
Cricket in India is massive and a lot of Australia's
relationship with India really needs to be understood through a
prism of cricket. We have a lot because India India
was always kind of not aligned for the purpose of
the Cold War. India was close to Soviet Union. It
was never any kind of hostile country, but it was
never part of the Alliance. So Australia always had to
treat very carefully with India, but very much through the Quad,

(53:03):
through what leads to become the Quad, we have reached
out to India. There's a massive Indian diasper in Australia,
so a lot of Indians have come to live in Australia.
There are parts of Sydney, for instance, sort of called
Little India and the like. And also we have this
shared love of this game of cricket and believe it
or not, sports like that can be a great.

Speaker 2 (53:22):
Form of dialog.

Speaker 3 (53:23):
Our former Prime Minister Scott Morrison, so the immediate preducesses
of our current Prime minister. He for instance, would be
seen every Friday night, particularly during the COVID lockdown, having
his curry Nights, and he would post photos of him
cooking curries etc. And often I think the Prime Minister
in Modi would make his comments on how well he
was going with this, And we do try to have

(53:46):
as close relationship with India as we can. Obviously we
share the same apprehensions around China. But as I caution
all of my Australian friends who tend to get a
little bit wrapped up with the latest current thing, I said,
no matter how many Ukrainian flags you put in your
to handle, the Indians are not going to abandon Russia.
If you want the quad to work, you're going to
have to accept the fact that India is going to

(54:06):
want us keep its relationship with the Russians and they're never
giving that up. Ever, and a country of one point
four billion people, you can't tell them who they can
be friends with. I'm an Australian, you know, we're twenty
seven million people. I would never accept people telling me
who I can be friends with. The idea you're going
to tell one point four bidin Indians who they can
be friends with is just ridiculous, particularly in circumstances where
you know, the Russians have been loyal patrons of Indians

(54:29):
whenever they've needed weapons, arms training and the like. Because
there's a reason why India looks to Russia as a
reliable partner. In a way, it doesn't look to the West,
which is subject to more perhaps domestically minded tempests and
storms that may see people not want to support them.

Speaker 2 (54:46):
So the big can I just say.

Speaker 3 (54:48):
The India question for Australia is also has to be
seen because we also have a substantial in parts of
Sydney and patsmel we Als have a Muslim population. There
are a lot of subcontinential Muslims in a Astralia have
issues with Modi's India, so it is a It's an
issue that really you have to have a great degree
of ethnic knowledge to thread the needle properly. It's not

(55:10):
an easy one and I always service to people. One
of the most interesting taxi rides overtook in Sydney was
I had a long taxi ride from one part of
western Sydney back to my home on the on the
Northern Benches, and I was surprised the guys with Pakistani
share taxi rids in Sydney's I'm sure, like everywhere, taxi
rids the Syney fascinating.

Speaker 2 (55:29):
But you a lot of people from the subcontinent.

Speaker 3 (55:31):
You get a great insight into how much immigration shapes Australia.

Speaker 2 (55:34):
And and we'll.

Speaker 3 (55:35):
Just keep reshaping Australia, but also how whatever picture is
painted for you, these are all human problems that involve
humans that have come to Australia and will in turn
affect the Australian polity and how it goes about, because
all societies are ultimately complex not complicated problems.

Speaker 2 (55:49):
Does that answer your question? Oh yeah, apart from cricket,
I mean cricket is very cricket.

Speaker 4 (55:58):
Well, if we could understand the rules cricket, we might
play more on that.

Speaker 3 (56:01):
If I can, just probably the best way to distinguish
it from baseball for an American audience.

Speaker 2 (56:05):
And always said this cricket.

Speaker 3 (56:08):
A writer once said that cricket was invented by the British, who,
not being as spiritual people, needed something to explain to
them what eternity was like. And so because cricket goes
for five days, and cricket in some respects is a
lot like life. You can play five days and you
can have what we call a draw. You know, you
can have a drawer in cricket after five days, no
one wins, you walk away, you shake hands.

Speaker 2 (56:29):
You know, we have a draw. And cricket is a
lot like life.

Speaker 3 (56:33):
But cricket is one of those games that's just it
has like a magnetizing effect. I mean, I'm much more
of a football person myself, but I played cricket growing
up and my great cricketing hero was an Indian called
Capal Death and crowds.

Speaker 2 (56:46):
This language that crosses, crosses boundaries.

Speaker 3 (56:49):
You might have nothing else in common, but you can
talk about cricket and it's the start of something else
in the same way like football or soccer is for
Europeans as well.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
We'll have to we'll have to save for your next
is it you can help explain to us why are
they called the ashes? And you know why is this
totem so important? So address that last time. But we'd
had you for an hour, and it is the great
thing of modern technology, is you have You got two
guys on the east coast of the US. You're down
there in Sydney and we're talking like we're in the
same room. It's really great and it's great talking with you.

(57:20):
It's always a quick hour. We really should have you
on more often. Well, one thing we didn't do at
the beginning. I would like to give you an opportunity
for especially if you're on X. I mean Gray's right there.
You hit on a regular basis topics you would expect.
But if people want to track on what you're doing,
where's a good place for him to keep an eye.

Speaker 3 (57:39):
Yeah, I mean obviously I post on Exit at Greg
Connolly and that's all of my random musings. One thing
about being in the lower is you're often commuting, so
you often get opportunities to post a lot. So I'm
on Exit at Grey Connolly. I have a blog called
Strategy Council, which I need to update more often than
I do and just want to hit me up on X.

Speaker 2 (57:56):
I'm very happy to answer any questions.

Speaker 3 (57:59):
Well, it's been great aking to you, great thanks, thanks,
my great pleasure. I love coming on mid Rats. I'm
always always on to be invited on. So thank you very.

Speaker 4 (58:06):
Much, thank thank you for joining us.

Speaker 1 (58:07):
Thank you so much, and thank you everybody for joining
us for another edition in mid Rats. And until next time,
hope you have a great Navy day.

Speaker 6 (58:15):
Cheers.

Speaker 7 (58:31):
Want to marry me and a friend of Godily for
you being to blame for all me so folding your
the it's a long way. It's a long way. It's

(58:57):
a long way, and mean to the queen, and I
know all about, think on it, farewell, listen where it's
a long long way to get the Y But my lies,

(59:19):
my name, How is that