Alan Piper Explains The Secret History of LSD and Bicycle Day Episode #279

Episode Transcript
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(00:07):
Welcome back to Micah Maurices might Escape, let us help you
escape your mind. All right, folks.

(00:42):
Welcome back to Mike and Maurice's mind Escape.
We have episode number, I believe it's 278.
Today, I am your host, Mike. Maurice is still kind of in and
out. We'll get them in when we can.
And yeah, PD Newman was supposedto be on this episode here to
take a quick flight out. So shout out to PD, will get you
back on soon. And yeah, we have a special

(01:05):
guest today, Alan Piper. And I'm really looking forward
to this conversation regarding LSD and the secret history of
LSD and all these amazing different little counterculture,
you know, anecdotes and different things.
So, we'll get to that in a second.
You can check out Bicycle Day. I've been linked down below,

(01:28):
it's through psychedelic press. Shout out to Rob at psychedelic
press, and you can also buy it, I believe, on Amazon.
I've, I've both those links downbelow.
And, yeah, he just got back fromthe breaking convention where he
spoke at, he said that there should be a video back up on
there soon. And, yeah, if you want to
support mind Escape, all you have to do, is click the link

(01:49):
tree, link down below. We do have our documentary,
which is up We've had a great, great reaction.
We are still working on, trying to get a run on a platform where
more people can see it, but if you want to watch the director's
cut, all you have to do is go toour patreon.
It's 777 and yeah, it's it's up there.

(02:10):
So if you're interested, click the link tree link down below
and again, our documentary is called as within.
So without from UFOs, to DMT regarding the mind, and the UFO
and DMT experiences. So, but, yeah, without further,
Turiddu. Welcome on the show.
Alan how are you? I'm good, thanks to.
I think that in my gum, I'm fine.
I'm fine. Yeah, a little worn yesterday.

(02:32):
I took my four-year-old grandson, to the theme park.
So that was like a long day, starting at 6:00 in the morning,
to get back to the bouts of close to 8:00 at night.
So, but other than other than that you're quite demanding,
have a four-year-old taking him around a theme park, and he's
myth because he can't go in someother rides because he's not
like one me to point to and that.

(02:53):
So you have to sort of guide it around and keep him keeping Get
up, you know with if you one means or another but other than
that thing, a little weary. After a long day with my
four-year-old grandson, I'm really cool.
I'm fine. Yeah, I can't even imagine that.
Our little girl is one and a half and I remember my wife and
I went to Disney World on our honeymoon and we were worn out.

(03:15):
Just the two of us going around going on rides and eating food,
and walking around and stuff. So, can't even imagine around,
you know, chasing a little guy around and yeah, but I'm sure
I'll experience it here soon. So your book bicycle day and
other psychedelic essays, kind of that, it's just like a
conglomeration of different things that you've written, but

(03:38):
they all kind of like work through each other, right?
So what was your inspiration forthis book?
And your previous book? I believe was what 2015, you
wrote strange drugs, make for strange bedfellows about
politics and all that stuff. Very much focusing on younger

(04:00):
and a little bit, the radical rights interested in drugs and
that is, I've not really focusedon that so much recently, but I
think that's still developing, really, and still a still an
issue. And the link there through also
kind of neo-paganism and neo-paganism and the radical,
right? The connections, obviously, a
fairly straightforward there andthat you have a connection with

(04:20):
the radical right neo-paganism. And sort of ensayo shamanism I
suppose you can call it something.
I'm sure people know what I mean, but that was an
interesting adventure. And I had a certain amount of
caution when that came out because talking about Hoffman's
connections with urged younger, his closeness to younger who are

(04:43):
after all was a supporter of theNazis until hmm, quite a long
way, on certainly pass the lightof the Long Knives.
Certainly pass kristallnacht according to his own account in
interview. So he has what?
One? That he's in the literary
Experts of younger called a Jew.Be has passed.

(05:06):
Yes. And it's not in you.
Do disbursement off my must-have, well-known.
You know what kind of figure younger was when he saw contact
with him just after the second world war, but not directly can
contingent to to these essays. What it actually, I say that it
is a struggle. I have to remind Myself driving

(05:27):
this out. He's a selection.
You asking me how it arose and it really arose through Rob,
Dickens of sake. Don't press.
And thanks so much to him. I have to also named Nikki.
We're due to a lot of the editing hours and hours of
editing to improve some of the earlier published essays.
So they're all barring the long bicycle de sa self Bicycle Day

(05:48):
in ritual, myth and history and all been previously published,
but they've been re-edited with certain amount of additional
material. So the origin.
Is what we lie in Rob, Dickens coming to me and saying, well,
why don't we do a collection of your essays and get them
together? So, I didn't publish in various
places. I have to give a shout out to
gwiyomi agree or has various monikers.

(06:10):
The publisher of invisible College Journal, who published
some of my essays previously andagree that they could be
published here in this format. So that's really the origin in
one sense. It's the most recent origin.
Obviously, there's the origin inthe essays themselves and My
motivation in seeking out the stories behind these, these

(06:32):
essays, which were all kind of historical, something of a
different approach really to psychedelics, perhaps from the
more conventional approach in, looking back to the pre-war
period. In many cases, people tend to
think of you're talking about the Psychedelic Renaissance, is
the sort of buzzword of the, of the moment and and that's Going

(06:57):
back, I think to the, to, the 60s really that argument a
Renaissance after what some people would see as LSD research
been compromised by the, you know, by the the popular culture
at of psychedelics moment. It's really the, whether it's
really to blame some people liketo blame Timothy Leary and so on

(07:18):
and such like, I think it's muchmore complex picture than that.
But it's not, my speciality, notsomething that particular want
to talk about anyhow. So, Historical approach to the
to the history of psychedelics and still the hidden Corners.
I suppose you might call it a psychedelic history.
So if I remind myself yet again by just browsing and looking so

(07:42):
we've got ya peyote at Harvard in these called Jazz Age,
peyote's. Mm 1920s and 30s remarkable
story some American readers might be familiar.
With some of the figures involvenot, so not so well known

(08:03):
perhaps in the UK and then hope Modi slut in the Mist.
This fantasy novel conceived in Paris of the 1920s, where the
author hope murli's and her partner.
And there were certainly viewed as being sort of a Sapphic
partnership when her partner Jane Harrison that an important

(08:23):
historian of Greek mythology. And they went to Paris and when
she retired, what's called Parisless bossy because of its kind
of center of lesbian literary culture and obviously there's a
whole expatriate Ernest Hemingway and so on kind of
thing going on at the same time so so there we have and yes

(08:46):
David Lindsay as the author states of did David Lindsay.
So there's an English author whowrote this relatively well-known
book Forge to Arcturus. Which was kind of rediscovered
in the Psychedelic 60s and that Ballantine fantasy series is one
of the earliest ones that some was republished by Ballantine

(09:09):
and curiously. The fact that there's some clear
references to Altered States in that, that novel voice to
Arcturus is kind of a science fiction fantasy, where some of
voyages to a another planet revolving around a star
Arcturus, and this is strange. Teachers grows strange

(09:29):
additional organs of perception.And within the story, he drinks
and eat various substances on this alien planet, that ought to
his Consciousness. But strangely no one until I
wrote about it seems to have picked up on the presence of of
these states of altered Consciousness but very subtly

(09:49):
described within perhaps in thatway, perhaps like the easily
read over. But so subtly described to me
Me, that suggests that the author had some, some not sure
of the exact data rate that was the one of the more interesting
ones to me when I read it because I knew about a lot of
the other stuff, but the that story I never even heard of and

(10:10):
you're right. It kind of like a alien Alice in
Wonderland or something like that.
Hmm. Have you got to read the novel
since or? No.
No, I have not. But, you know, I'm gonna have to
check it out now. But it's it's interesting that
did it was rediscovered when certainly psychedelics has

(10:31):
something to do, right? The the renewed interest in
fantasy novels from the 1920s, or the end of the century,
really? And so on writers like dumb
Sunday and so on, who are kind of rediscovered.
This really interesting early fantasy novels.
And of course dunsany had stories involving hashish.
Yes, for me there, one. Like I said I'll have to

(10:53):
actually most of what I read is nonfiction.
Action, that's just what interests me.
But I make an exception, you know, for like sci-fi or, you
know, Philip K dick like that kind of stuff.
So I'll tell definitely check itout.
Like I said I find it interesting but yeah I really
wanted to talk to you because I'm really fascinated with
ancient and ritualistic psychedelic use pertaining to

(11:17):
you know like we're talking likea lucid and Mysteries and Soma
and all that kind of stuff. But I also got into this whole
thing when I was 13, 14 years old, my cousin and I were in the
same English class and we were allowed to read whatever we
want. So we picked the Electric
Kool-Aid, Acid Test, by Tom Wolfe.
And from there, it was like Off to the Races and we're reading

(11:39):
all of Hunter Thompson stuff, all of, you know, on the road
Jack, Kerouac object hair wax books, all that kind of stuff.
So this really fascinating because it kind of marries the
two things together, the kind ofthe more, a cult and secret
stuff mixed with the more current Counterculture 60s
stuff. So, yeah, I really wanted to

(12:00):
discuss this with you. So, in terms of, I do want to
talk about Leo perutz and the same Peter snow and I like I
said we had PD Newman on a couple, you know, it's been a
month now. Actually, I just took like a
month break Hiatus from doing the podcast, but when he was on
last we were discussing st. Peter's snow and this idea of

(12:21):
like a peace pill and trying to end Wars and that kind of a
thing. So why?
Don't you give us your take on it based on you reading.
You just said, you just reread it.
Well, I'll just rewrite this afternoon.
I got to get a lot hit, some academia.edu web page which you
can find if anyone who's interested can find the essay
there, just under my name Island.

(12:41):
Piper academia.edu people are probably familiar with the
website and Well, so Leah perutzis Austrian author, published
this novel in 1933, so 10 years before, as we understand it.
Yes. The discovery of LSD or the

(13:03):
hallucinogenic properties of LSD, by by Albert Hofmann, and
there's a A whole bunch of elements really within this kind
of mystery novel. I suppose you call it because
part of the story behind the novel is this man.
Awakening in hospital being told, he's been in a car crash,

(13:25):
but he has other memories for which taking place that he's
been injured in, in a, in an uprising by these peasants in
this English, German Village. So it's nostril, novel set in
Germany. And centers around the, the
protagonists recollection that he's being.

(13:45):
He's a doctor. There's he's been employed by
this aristocratic Baron in this remote, German Village to be the
local local doctor and to minister to local peasants, but
he discovers one, you discovers that.
The baron was a close friend of his of his father and, and the

(14:09):
term, the It's been working on the development of a drug
derived, from bodies and ergot type fungus, A parasitic fungus
of wheat or rye and with the intention of of provoking a
religious revival. So the baron has discovered that

(14:29):
historically ergot poisoning hasbeen responsible for these bouts
of religious mania in the MiddleAges and further discovered that
our got with a It's a catchment of the ages of the the ancient
mystery religions of the Greeks and Romans and that's been
handed down as a secret through history.
So he's determined, he's also discovered or found this

(14:54):
Protege, who's in the Royal Line, the Holy Roman Empire and
he intends to get this men printso to speak or this this
Pretender that he's discovered to get him back into power.
Being engineered this religious revival with his it is per got
derived drug. That's essentially, the story is

(15:18):
a little bit more complicated. Now, there are other figures in
which were all really quite interesting, the employs, a
Greek, my Greek. But since you need Greek,
biochemist, whose name is Kalisto.
And, and it has a manager at of land manager who's a Russian
émigré who has escaped from Russian Revolution.

(15:39):
Anyhow, he wants to persuade thedoctor to secretly administer
that experimentally this drug. That's used to disease
developed. The Kalisto, the biochemist is
extracted from ergot and he reviewed all he pretends that he
hasn't had no result but subsequently the baron invites,
all the local peasantry to a fate, free beer and cakes and

(16:03):
secretly administers this drug to The Local Peasant population.
And rather than provoking a religious revival or religious
feelings in them. It provokes a Communist
Revolution in which the baron iskilled, and the, the protagonist
novel is injured and wakes up tofind himself in hospital.

(16:23):
So, that's the essence of it. So, the problematic you nature
of the novel is, In several points not just a 1-1, it's
predicting. So to speak, or for seeing the
deriving of a, of a drug from our got, which has the effect of

(16:48):
of invoking. Mystical can mystical
experiences or religious experiences and then there's
these other elements, the, the, the knowledge that our got was a
secret sacrament of the, of the ages handed down through secret
societies. Is which, of course, was not
proposed really until the rotor losses was published by rho G by

(17:11):
Washington and rock and, and Hoffman around 1975, something
like that. I think.
Anyway, so procedures that they don't make any reference in in
the Rotorua Lucius to Brooks's, right?
And in fact, foresees, that I think they were not unaware of
it. Fact car broker is who is a

(17:32):
friend of mine, uh, I wrote to him, When I first discovered, it
was the first person I wrote to and I email Carlos is one of you
heard of this book and the, you know, whatever title is now
that, but just st. Peter snow is called, I think
that's a sound Factory schnee inGerman originally and and and

(17:55):
car wrote makes me by nothing. No he hadn't.
And so the I said about researching in much more detail
and wondering where perutz couldyou divide.
This is Change your design ideasand and thus develop the asset
that I finally had published in the journal time in mind.
Yeah, the problem with the otherproblem with the other guy thing

(18:17):
for me, like I said, I've been fascinated with all this
obviously, you have a lot of people looking into the
loosening Mysteries. Not just, you know, road to a
lusus. But now you have like the
immortality key, Brian, my rescue, and all that, and they
find her got her. Remnants and these chalice from
spectral analysis and different things.

(18:40):
What are, how are they? Because ergot itself is actually
kind of volatile in the human body causes seizures
convulsions, all sorts of different things.
So I know I don't know which onebut they propose I think it was
like Hoffman or maybe Rock proposed floating hot oil on the
top of the vat during the loose.Any Mysteries to, you know,

(19:05):
Extract the LSA from the, you know, the ergot or whatever.
So I guess my whole thing with all this is has somebody
successfully done this and if not why aren't our best, you
know, ethno, botanist or whoevertrying to look into this figure
it out because I mean, that would be the first place I'd
look wise number. Yeah, I said that's a

(19:26):
fundamental problem, isn't it? So, I mean, one, one thing I
guess that I've not seen any anyreport where the people have
tried through the low doses of our got to see what kind of
effect that has, but proposing amethod by which, a sort of non

(19:53):
toxic or not. So, toxic pollution.
Jen could be derived from herb. Write something that people have
worked on mean. Peter Webster was published with
Karl Rock a friend of Rocks. He's proposed a possible
solution so to speak but they'reall hypothetical and

(20:16):
hypothetical. And I mean, there is an issue
that got does not appear to be exactly hallucinogenic in its
raw form despite reports or, youknow, again there's Terence

(20:38):
McKenna. Is that famous, anecdote where
he's talking about this guy who they asked to bring a bunch of
powder. Got to a dealer that was going
to make LSD, but you, obviously,you need all the precursors and
they're like, don't do anything.Don't take it.
It's not anything that, you know, will get you high or
whatever in the guy, honked up abig line and they found them

(21:00):
like convulsing all over the ground and stuff like that.
So, yeah, it's not, it's not something people should be going
out there and And in try, but I've heard speculations.
Like you said, kind of like, Rumblings of people trying
things and different things. But yeah, I mean it would it
would, it would solve a lot of problems if they could just

(21:20):
figure out how. And if people don't know, clavis
steps per Pea or ergot grows on wheat and rye fungus, we've
talked a lot about it on the podcast before, but, you know,
it's associated with the loosening Mysteries and these
agrarian calls for obvious And you see a lot of wheat symbology

(21:40):
even at a lusus to this day. So yeah, interesting stuff in
terms of, you know, you have youspoken, you said you you know
rock has he said anything since all this stuff's kind of come
out with like you know immortality key and more

(22:02):
knowledge about all these kind of topics not respond to call
about that kind of few. You job online chats with Mark
Hofmann, he's close friend of his, you know.
He's kind of support supports him.
But now I'm not I'm not really Duck into it.
I did buy me a Mercedes book andit's not really an area of deep

(22:25):
interest to me at the present time.
It's something that I was much more interested in quite a
number of years ago when when I used to see you quite a lot more
of Carl. Yeah.
But I think as you are suggesting it await the
possibility that, you know, someone demonstrating that ergot

(22:47):
in a rule, Form can be can be employed to to induce a kind of
hallucinogenic experience and not being shown to be the case
and I share I mean look the immortality Kia.
I thought I had good knowledge in there but to be honest with
you I thought that would it would have sent it over the top

(23:08):
is if he had tried to do some ofthese rituals or something to
tried, they actual entheogen, associated with, then wrote
about it. I thought that would have Really
put that thing to another level who took my naturally Brian
rescue from immortality key. Yeah yeah.
So I mean he you know you don't you've never done psychedelics

(23:28):
and that's that's great that you're adding history and
science and proof to a lot of these things.
But I think that again, I think that I would have added so much
more to that book if you would actually tried and wrote about
it. But so back to your book though,
one thing I want to mention. Into is in terms of bicycle day,

(23:54):
there's so many like myths and you know, things that people get
wrong or they've heard this or they've heard that.
Can you just give us like a basic premise of what?
What the read, what really happened on bicycle day and then
maybe we can talk about some of the misconceptions regarding
know what? We don't know what really
happened? No, no.

(24:14):
I you know what ba, you know what I'm saying?
Kissing two places in the sense,one simply with the AF, the fact
that it's a highly romanticized event.
So it's already has his kind of Glamour surrounding.
It is a kind of iconic mythical event, so to speak.

(24:39):
And and Wii U star is that we really only have Hoffman's
account. So we're relying on this this
his book from 1978 and listing my problem child for his account
and he's, he's already spoken about it on other occasions

(25:00):
referred to his it in various kind of essays or interviews
that he's given. But the Bare Bones of his story.
As I understand, it haven't changed, which was that on the
16th of April 1943, he experiences accidentally
laboratory intoxication. Mmm.
So in other words, he felt a bitweird though.

(25:23):
Bit unwell here, you realize that he absorbed something or
inhaled and somehow it absorbed the chemical, some sort that had
made in mind. Well, and guess that it was
lsd-25, which had been working with.
There's course, it's a step before that, in the romantic

(25:44):
story, so, to speak, which is it, he'd return to a less T25
from, from quite a number of years.
Previously, when you first synthesized is particular,
substance 25th in the sequence of which there was none before
and some after which have been tested previously on dogs and
the conclusion had been treated with the substance of no

(26:04):
specific value. He's had this intuition to
return to it and therefore not why he was working with you in
the first place. That was the 16th of April 1943
and guess that was a particular substance, which presumably was
working with on that day. And so if you return to it, in
three days later decided to haveherself experiment and took what

(26:26):
he thought was an absolutely tiny dosage, unaware of the fact
that the policy is effective in.Do Is of micrograms rather mg
and compared to something like masculine.
And so he took what he thought was a possibly the lowest dose
which would actually be threshold to the kind of

(26:47):
affected experienced on the 16th250 micrograms.
And of course you had a full-blown trip.
He was unaware that this was the250 was the kind of the hippie
dose of the 1960s rather than the kind of sort of Rave type of
dose of maybe something like 100micrograms or whatever and had
Blaine trip and was obliged to head home accompanied by a

(27:13):
colleague and they had to cycle home because it was wartime.
So petrol restrictions in Wartime.
And so he was accompanied by this female colleague, and they
cycle back to his home, which about half an hour away, that's
not the story. From cycling home, under the
influence of LSD is the kind of romantic and slightly Humorous,

(27:36):
kind of picture for those who've, maybe take another
student in appropriate circumstances and found
themselves trapped on a bus or atrain or on the way home from
somewhere and find, there were high in a kind of in appropriate
circumstances. So that's the story behind by
called a bicycle in the discovery of the hallucinogenic

(27:57):
properties of LSD. But it's been questioned in a
number of ways and by number of different people, Dave, Cool.
See who's kind of now taken on the mantle of shore Guinness,
the world experts are professional chemists,
professional chemists of the world S Peck tax expert on
psychedelics and found the storydubious for various reasons and

(28:22):
he did this kind of thought experiment at Burning Man at
anyway, cuz I'm kinda psychedelics along with an
audience and talk through the possibility or he dwelt on.
The and likelihood the Hoffman did actually experienced an
accidental laboratory intoxication, the 16th of April,

(28:43):
the reason being that a chemist like a Hoffman would have been
absolutely scrupulous. Especially if you're messing
around with chemicals. That could be toxic extreme
toxicity of that. You're that you're unaware of,
that's number one and two. I mean, no one has successfully
shown that that you can absorb Orb LSD going to trip through

(29:09):
the skin so it's already extremely unlikely that he had
accident actually accidentally become intoxicated rounded
suggests that he'd actually had one of his want to be
spontaneous. Mystical experiences it, he'd
he'd experienced in his childhood.

(29:29):
But why would have experienced that in the lab?
And that particular occasion is another question, but one is
shown in retrospect. She gives me a moment in
retrospect. I've not question, but but that
was the debut, nickel suggestionthat he might have just been an
accidental show you. This trendiest.

(29:51):
Mystical experience also explainto intoxication will let me to
say I noted state So don't happen because also, I think
equation is the duration and various other little technical
aspects and it's David Nicholls,but I'm sure he wishes, which he
never done that. Now because we are coming.
I've picked it up and it's fuel to the fire of the conspiracy

(30:14):
theories that they're delicious tea was not discovered by
accident. Yeah.
So let's let's talk about that for a second.
So yeah I think PD Newman even brought it up that the idea that
again. There's this idea of people
looking for peace pill or two and War.
There's such a war and after World War 1 and so this idea

(30:38):
that you're saying, oh, you would have been more careful and
that wouldn't have really happened.
Is it possible that somebody could have came to them and been
like, let's do this or maybe he had discovered way before and
then decided, like, it was time to go public with it or I mean,
have you thought about that or, you know, any of those Hey,
killing industry. But there's there's, there's

(31:01):
like I said, there's no way to go.
Well, there are the archives that standards and Mike J has
gone to those archives. And having a look at the, the
notes that have been made at thetime, his report to stall, to
Arthur stole the, the rec director of the pharmaceutical
section, and he concluded himself that that that the

(31:25):
Hoffman had already an unsurprising.
Only by 1978 are already somewhat perhaps romanticized
The Experience. Because his initial reports, his
initial report to stalwart of a rather unpleasant experience.
Whereas the report in arresting my problem, child is that it,
you know, it was a disturbing experience initially, but it as

(31:49):
the effects gradually wore off which a we, many of his might as
well have experienced had their difficult time, with the
receiver. When they've been it's like and
often little bit you Able to much more enjoy it, that, that,
that didn't really. It wasn't the nature have of his
original of his original report.Nothing have to think the 1978

(32:14):
was well, as counties 33 years, my right from 1945, 35 years
from from the original time fromthat.
Instant in the must have talked to you over many.
Many times told it Idli at whether a dinner parties or
conferences before he eventuallywrote, it up in listing my
problem child. But of course you were just

(32:35):
referring to these stories that it was invented deliberately and
of course it's links back to st.Peter snow.
So the source of these stories that have fundamentally goes
back to Willie's, Harmon this figure from the kind of West
Coast. So I could do.

(32:57):
Scene of the u-19, most 60s and 70s, he may go back a bit
further than that, but he workedat Stanford.
He was a even expert in electrical engineering.
I think it was so good and it somehow got involved with the
West Coast, psychedelic New Age,kind of scene and in a radio

(33:18):
interview in Australia, he reported and it was published as
a transcript of that. the Hopmanstory had been cooked up by
Hoffman and that Two scientists or which Hoffman was one were
followers of Rudolf Steiner. And in order to save so to speak

(33:42):
a troubled World, it ain't what they were intent on creating a,
what you discovered, a piece pill.
Something along the lines of if only the, you know, the
presidents of the, the countriesof the world, we take LSD, then
that would be the end of war, and we have a peaceful world.
So on the back of that kind of idea, I suggest that claim.

(34:04):
As that followers of Rudolf, Steiner had deliberately cooked
up a list e as a piece pill in the standards.
Laboratories Yeah, it's an interesting one.
I mean we've talked about Steve Steiner, a lot on the show but
just more, you know, anthroposophy and all of this.

(34:26):
Yeah. You know, scientific /.
Philosophical /, spiritual movement stuff?
Well, I mean, I've never been attracted by starring or his
work. I used to pop into the stone of
Bookshop. There's one in London.
It's think it closed. I'm back to it.
Relatively recent, I think it reopened nothing.
Nothing You know, you could grabbooks off the shelf and browse

(34:48):
nothing about storing it over attracted me to see, it's
attached to me, it seemed to be rather cadaver, rather
conservative nature, which made.It seems strange to me, the
suggestion that his followers tobe cooking up a piece pill.
Well, that is what really stallman the yeah, what is
Harmon said. And I suspect that in another

(35:09):
report published by Martin Ali, he attributes the story.
To Al Hubbard. She's much more likely that
Hubbard the kind of carried. He seemed to be.
Might have been the spinner at all stories or at least of maybe
garbled accounts of events. Yeah.

(35:31):
So it's possible that Hubbard was the original source and harm
and came by through through Hubbard and used only part of
that that seemed in Hubbard. It was remarkable character.
You can really quite interested in how about and trying to trace
us some of his life prior to my spine, no one hasn't done more.
There has been a biography published very recently, I know

(35:53):
if you're aware of that about Hubbard and going back to his
days in Vancouver, I don't know anybody Vancouver.
He was originally was working for the Bootleggers in Vancouver
and he was as kind of a bit of atechnical whiz, and he was
employed building ratio res for the Bootleggers between

(36:14):
Vancouver and America smuggling bootleg liquor in June
prohibition, period and eventually become a police
Informer. He switched sides.
Probably been arrested in. That was the, the, the
arrangement he made there lots of reports.
In fact, the, the the biography they've been published of
Hubbard go draws on a lot of those original police or

(36:39):
newspaper reports of the trials,and the various times at Hubbard
was arrested in connection with bootlegging.
But he turned sides by all accounts and became a be working
for the DEA or whatever. And so it's quite likely that
Hubbard and must always have have a going into the, the
secret Services, the OSS, or whichever of the American or the

(37:04):
English secret Services during the war Jin, seems quite
possible because they certainly did recruit out of out of those
police departments. What about like the Idea that
Wasson because I know like we'vehad arguments, I've had people
on the insist Wasson wasn't connected at all to this year.
I had other people say he's completely he's in on it you

(37:28):
know which I would find interesting since he brought you
know the whole mushroom Shamanism and María Sabina stuff
come to the public as well as writing tons of books on all
these you know, Soma and all these different topics.
X. So, do you have any thoughts on?
I know that's not really part ofthis, but you have any thoughts

(37:50):
on Lawson and that whole thing about whatever comes up both in
yon Irving territory, aren't we?If you start talking about that?
And so, I mean only did a freedom of information request
and got high, it was and powers of documentation amongst them,
one that he refers to sort of kind of central to his claim

(38:11):
that wasn't was that, you know, actively working for the CIA and
then that it really depends. Little bit on your reading of
that particular document which you know, if you'd be interested
that they can probably find it, find it online.
So nervous. Interesting character who really
amazing to come way off the rails.
Rodents are emailing me again sohe was kind of a friend.

(38:32):
He interviewed me. You know I did a podcast app
interview with the honor of him when he was interviewing doing
good interviews with quite a lotof relatively obscure
psychedelics, it will entertain your botanists.
Alien that kind of a thing. Some some from Europe, the
people might not, otherwise be particularly aware of Tony's,
doing some really quite good work.

(38:54):
Any republish sacred Mushroom inthe cross to that dry heat was
in on that and he was quite friendly with rock at that time
and so and then yeah, he became obsessed with.
Well, I got a bit lost of exactly what his theories were
about. The Watson was working for the
CIA and the And up on this this idea that in some way or other

(39:19):
the Psychedelic 60s were a kind of mind-control program operated
by the by the CIA. Never quite clear on this was it
22. To damage the kind of counter
cut the political countercultureto kind of get them all kind of

(39:40):
Airy fairy and high on acid. So they lost interest in their
political activism or I get a bit lost.
I don't know if it was mine control.
Have you ever read the book, chaos, by Tom O'Neill?
No, no, no. I think you should definitely
check out. Because there is actual proof
that the people that were working at the Haight-Ashbury

(40:00):
free clinic that we're giving medical attention to a lot of
these hippies and stuff like that.
The one guy was actually a pharmacologist that was studying
rats and LSD previously, and they were dosing the rats with
they would give them. And feta means to boost our

(40:22):
numbers. Oh, they would they would first
give them LSD and that would give them like kind of like a
little bit of you know, influence over them and then
they would give them in feta mean.
So what they saw was there's this is like a famous experiment
that ended up being kind of whathappened on the streets of
Haight-Ashbury where you'd see alot of hippies come in, do LSD.
Peace, love, flower children andthen all of a sudden you start

(40:46):
to see this wave of crime and and hippies taking amphetamines
and speed and speed. And all this kind of stuff.
So it actually mimics that experiment that they were doing
on rats in a lab previous to the60s even occurring.
So this is the mansion book really old man.
Yeah, there's a Manson book but there's a lot of good LSD stuff

(41:06):
in. Yeah, so I picked up a copy of
that I picked up Andy, Roberts old, copy of that.
He would surely some Review of Books.
Andy Roberts, the author of Albion dreaming, the history of
LSD, in Britain, which is a great book, anyone, One who is
interested in the differences between, you know, the kind of
LSD culture in the UK and America Center should have take

(41:29):
a look at Andy Roberts. It up your dream.
If I put in a advice really should check that out.
So yeah, so I will take a look at it.
I can probably see it over how good a pile of books have picked
up second hand? Yeah, I mean, it interests me
glad I said, I'm in the merry pranksters and Ken Kesey.
And all, you know, that I actually am a huge Grateful Dead

(41:49):
fan. I'm a musician myself.
So like I'm very Of the GratefulDead's history but to your to
the what you were mentioning though, there's a lot of people
that take it further. There's some people that think
the Grateful Dead were a psyop or that owes lie because he's
uncle was like a senator something.
Somehow is connected to all the things.
I think you can just connect allthese pieces together and it
doesn't really mean anything at some point, but I do think that

(42:11):
there's certain elements, like Isaid, that Haight-Ashbury free
clinic. We know about MKUltra, we know
it was real. We know that they were doing
that. Now, how much influence does
that have over that entire ER, movement, I don't know.
I mean, that's where you lose me.
A little bit on connecting country.
He's 42, Facebook, friend of mine for many, many years, he's

(42:38):
changed a lot of stuff and, you know, fuck that, you know,
Robert draws on some of my kind of material to support his own,
kind of theories, but it's a very, it's such a complicated
picture as you really in. Decay Ting that to to, to follow
the trails and the connections. Yes, easy to disappear down a

(43:00):
rabbit hole of One's Own invention.
Hmm. What was your favorite us say in
this book? Well, that's a good question
idea. I was sort of pondering that Let
me just read them. What we have one, we have the
legacy of transgression psychedelics in the end of
History to Jazz Age peyote ISM at.

(43:23):
Harvard a psychedelic circle with a Mormon connection.
That one was very interesting, drugs, saff ISM and Altered
States a hope in morales. Lud in the Mist is that's what
we mentioned. That fantasy novel, you were
mentioning for the Altered States of David.
Lindsay is you mentioned before three psychedelic, novels of The

(43:45):
1920s, number five, Bicycle Day in ritual, myth and history, we
just mentioned that a little bit.
And then number six, we have revisiting Unger's gotten home
which as you mentioned, you're alot of your stuff comes from
Ernst younger and that whole influence its connection to
Hoffman. I'll see, my favorite of those

(44:07):
is probably the golden home. One because I guess younger is
such a fascinating figure and, and the, the connection between
Hoffman and younger is, is so interesting.
The kind of the ambiguity, really their relationships,

(44:27):
young girl who's a poster boy for neo-fascism, you can't get
away from the fact that he is. So until you'll find, you know,
various neo-fascist websites andEuropean in particular.
And he's an icon of those neo-fascists and Hoffman the

(44:48):
that I can stay humble, maybe not be quite right.
But the quiet chemist working away at, send us who purely by
chance, discovered LSD, and really of his, or not of his
own, making has become a kind oficon of LSD culture, that, that
friendship and, and the fact that golden homeless, somebody

(45:09):
shortly, The novella really is based around a certainly
certainly refers to a lot of interesting things there, but it
really is partly based around trips that the Hoffman took with
Ernst younger and often makes that clear himself in the

(45:30):
chapter muted wrote a whole chapter to what he refers to as
the radiance of Ernst younger. And he refers to the fact that
yes, the that this novel visit to go in her home was based
around, or at least Drew from some of their Mutual trips
together. And but he's also very much

(45:51):
based in youngers Wartime experience.
The, the trauma of German defeator double German defeat first,
in the first world war after which, you know, younger was Is
an opponent and, and hatred for for the Weimar Republic.

(46:11):
And and then, of course, there sdefeat in the second world war,
which he referred to, as simply calls the catastrophe.
And so, at that level is, is so interesting.
I suppose, it's a bit of, is noteasy to get an insight into
youngers mind. I mean, there's see you're busy.

(46:35):
Of course, recently, With his, his book referred to in English
has approaches, has been published in English, which
describes his experiments with drugs is drug experience.
And, and what you make, he makesit was drug experiences.
So the publish Mighty loss Publishing House.
They've republished a number of youngers books, non-fiction

(46:57):
books. And there's these fiction books,
I think Tiffany, mostly his non-fiction books such as the
forest passage, which is a very interesting read as well.
Drawn really in talking about visit to Golden home.
So but for those who are unawareof what was it for you to go and
home is about it, is it description of three people

(47:19):
undergoing. What would you call it?
Intuition or Guidance the, by this kind of magus figure or
nigger and want honest, I think he's referred to in that novel,
written agreement. Alice young has this kind of
magus figure who popped up in a number of his books as you were
First, you buy some different names but negro Montana's mean
black mounting them and I say it's you know, how much we've

(47:43):
turned grey Eminence. But anyhow, two men and a woman.
Visit this isolated island off of me.
Get this right? Sweden or Norway.
Norway, I think and and undergo this period of tuition.

(48:03):
What do you call it initiation? I suppose a process.
The show is 90 this Magus figureand it ends with this what you
might call a kind of trip sequence without any mention of
LSD or a drug but certainly drawing on Hoffman and youngers
trips together in which the theyundergo a personal

(48:27):
transformation, and difficult trips, I suppose you could call
them. M and out of which the figure
which certainly one of which kind of represents younger is
healing of the trauma of all, I,guess of what he refers to as a

(48:48):
catastrophe, which is that, you know, the the loss of the tree
to the Germans in the war. So it's an interesting window
into into that world where the atmosphere that existed in what
I refer to in in the bicycle day.
I say the group of individuals, who who, who gathered around

(49:13):
Hoffman friends and Associates of his who experimented with LSD
in the sort of 1950s and again in the 70s difficult for me to
remember, I know the exact dates, but there was this kind
of what called buyer who was a professor of religious studies,
he's now really retired but he gave a lecture Her in Amsterdam,

(49:37):
Amsterdam University, at one of these conferences of the esse
the European Society for the study of Eastern esse wi to
travel. To remember it all European
study for Society for the study of Western it as a terrorism
Child by spoke there and kindly refer to my research on Hoffman

(49:58):
in younger. Forced me to stand up and and
and make my presence known, and he gave a lecture there on.
And what you referred to as Hofmann do cultic Circle.
So that's an Insight that most people wouldn't have unless said
that lecture is, could be found online.
Carl Kar Kar L buyer. Baie are called buyer on

(50:22):
hofmann's occultic, Circle interest and do you think that?
Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.
The fact that there was this group of individuals who were
writers Publishers and the pomp of one of the Usher's of younger
and Hoffman. And and other of the circle who
indulged in these, what we sometimes referred to as seances

(50:46):
or a symposia or sometimes initiations, so they then they
would dress in Oriental, Garb and suchlike which got us back a
bit to the to the, to the Harvard, her reference to the
figures then who were sort of dressing in Oriental, robes and
Lighting. Since and all that kind of

(51:07):
thing. And that so reminiscent of the
hippie, period And suchlike. So these got what guys were not
hippies they were it would make their went all all of the
political, right? That younger Hoffman's policy
because we don't really know whyI suspect that he has some kind
of sympathy with youngest political views, but of course,
friend can have completely opposing political view.
So you can't necessarily deduce that.

(51:29):
But anyway, can't buy his lecture and I kind of expand on
that a little bit or paraphrase.quite a lot of it can't buy was
kind enough to agree that I could essentially do a
translation translation or transliteration of some of his
I've sung by that lectures you gave it understand University
about Hoffman's or cultic Circlebut But it's so interesting to

(51:52):
me, really more interesting waiting that goes up to use,
because I had some awareness of that was my discovery of the
closeness of Arthur stole the director of sound does under
who, Hoffman, what's your? We recruited Hoffman in the
first place of, Arthur stores, close, friendship determine
hesa. And the German author who was

(52:14):
very popular with the, for the hippie generation Siddhartha
early about Pam Valentine's fantasy series.
So These books which have been really kind of a literally back
water for people studying Germanliterature were republished in
paperback versions one. At least we had a header forward

(52:34):
by Timothy Timothy. Leary, so stolz after stole,
who's always this background. Figure not referred to many
times, but he recruited Hoffman and brought him in and off, my
doesn't really have a good word to say.
But after stall, but that's another story, which I might

(52:55):
write about. I'm always on the edge of
upsetting people very, very wellbecause my Hoffman younger, it's
a strange bed drugs. Make for strange bedfellows,
when that was first published one of the, the the Psychedelic
Elders of the pundits of psychedelic culture, reviewed it

(53:15):
saying a footnote to history andnot a very interesting one, he's
put on on Amazon. So I don't understand though,
like it's done psychedelics and done them enough know that it's,
they don't make you a better person if you already have that
in you to make yourself better or be mindful or whatever, maybe

(53:37):
you get a paradigm shift, maybe you're somebody that's super
radical in some way and maybe that just like, okay, gives you
different perspective. I guess I could see that, but
for the most part, you're not going to do it.
I mean, here's an example. If you go on Facebook, Facebook
and you go on any of the Psychedelic forums.
There's people talking shit to each other, all up and down the

(53:57):
comments. It doesn't matter about, you
know, what I'm saying. So it's not like doing the
Psychedelic makes you a better person.
It actually it's just a tool, it's just a tool if you know how
to use the tool. I think it's helpful but if
you're a radical person right wing, left wing, whatever it is,
and you're just not, you know, part of society in that realm,

(54:20):
then I don't That's gonna do it for you.
You know, problematical issue doesn't here, which is that.
So, so when you go back to the kind of the Psychedelic 60s or
70s, there was this idea. Oh, if only we could get the
president to do LSD, or the leapworld leaders to honesty and the

(54:43):
world would be a better place. And of course, that story.
Featured word is Harmons accountthe supposed Steiner, right?
It's dying, right satsang. God's plan and and done.
And within that sort of hippie culture, the was this idea, you

(55:03):
know, that. Like I think there's a story in
to called the the Brotherhood ofeternal love that the, you know,
the these Hells Angels all did acid and they drove their bikes
down to the ocean and they threwtheir weapons in the world.
The Armory into the ocean, you know.

(55:23):
So this is, it is persistent notion that the taking acid, or
taking any. Do you think, do you think it's
less the drug, or the compound and more like it in reality?
Do you think it's what people want?
That person to experience is more of a paradigm shift or a
paradigm shame. It is opposed to like, just
taking this compound or whatever, you know, like you

(55:45):
need that can happen in different ways.
It doesn't have to be psychedelics, it gonna be maybe
somebody, you know, No has a loss or somebody experiences
something that really shakes them up.
You know, for me I've had that myself, you know, with my mom
going through cancer. Now she's fine everything which
is great, but it's not, it's more of the experience of going
through that, I guess is what itis.

(56:07):
You know, I mean absolute agreement with you.
And I remember saying to my right name now, but to a sort of
psychedelic pundit figure, you know, well is he experienced a
Misaki like such as LSD necessarily more life-changing
than for example having a car accident where you almost lose

(56:29):
your life you know and then you reconfigure your life because
that and I was an agent one timeof working up an essay.
Something along the you know, the lines of LSD has been the
great disrupter. It has his disruptive effect and
what isn't powerful Doses. And then what that That is its

(56:52):
nature, you know that it disrupts, your normal
perceptions, you disrupt, your perception of yourself and so
on, and so on. But what I did want to kind of
Follow that thread a bit into the present time where, you
know, you have arguments online that I'm about the claims
particularly those coming out ofImperial College that particular

(57:15):
group. I suppose it probably applies to
two others as well but the Wherethey do experiments in, which
they claiming that it demonstrates, that that it makes
people more open to Nature that it improves people.

(57:36):
In that same kind of sense. It makes makes people better
people in in some sense, but there's a good condition did
decent contingent who are questioning all of that.
And what I wanted the problems of course going back to 22.
When these individuals were getting involved with eventually
getting licenses to, to do experiment using psychedelics

(58:03):
and to see what beneficial effects they might have.
Of course, they're looking for beneficial effects, that that is
part of that. The heart of this, I suppose you
might say that now, how much I, how much of those results
supposedly positive results in terms of things like addiction
or whatever else? You Patient people being
depressed and and shown that these Improvement.

(58:25):
How much of their an outcome of the assumptions of those who
actually modulating the experiments.
So you still have this thread going all the way through to the
present day right now in the middle of the Psychedelic
Renaissance, where all these claims have been made for the
therapeutic potential of expect?Not least it's not on the

(58:47):
sidelines you know I will say this And I even brought this up,
I don't know if you're familiar with her show, I have severe
OCD. I was resistant to all
treatments pretty much that werethrown at me from 4 years, 10
years, as a star eyes psychotherapies, any kind of

(59:08):
therapy, you can think of hypnotherapy, I tried everything
and in my life, I mean, I have arelationship with psilocybin.
I've done it a few hundred timesthroughout my adult life and
even In high school years I guess you can talk about but
that has been the single, most helpful thing in terms of OCD is

(59:32):
like a mindtrap you obsess. And it's like, you think of the
same thought and it's like, you can't get out of it.
So what it allows you to do is take a step back, kind of, look
at yourself from outside yourself, and exit that Loop and
understand, okay? This is what's happening and
why. So I think mindfulness
interests, Section. I just think psychedelics are

(59:53):
tool, and I think if you're smart enough, and I hate to
disparage, anybody who, whatever?
But if you're smart enough, I think you can use it as a proper
tool and you understand what it is and you understand how to
implement it in your life. There's people that don't or
they use it as a party drug or they use as an escape or
whatever. And I think that that I think
all drugs should be legal. So for me, you know, that is

(01:00:15):
what it is. But in that Essence, I think
that since it's been so helpful to me I do see a lot of the
signs for the mental health stuff where it's hopeless, for
some mental illness and some mental issues and maybe it's
just me. Maybe some people are more
susceptible. That's why I always tell people.
I am all about options, so you should have the option to take

(01:00:38):
SS, right? You should have option to go to
psychotherapy, CBT therapy, whatever it is.
You should have the option to experiment with your mind too.
If you are, you know, you're having a really tough time and
nothing's gonna help you. Why shouldn't you be able to?
Explore your mind and different ways to help it and stuff like
that. So that's always been my thing
on here is I have a pretty, pretty reasonable take where I'm

(01:00:59):
not saying oh it only has to be psychedelics and don't take us
as you know, it's or the opposite and vice versa.
It's all whatever helps you and we're all different.
We all have different biochemist, trees and
backgrounds, and different things.
So I just wanted to point that out because I do feel like there
is some beneficial stuff going on with that, but I also get
your point to where it's like itreminds me.

(01:01:21):
Of the Cannabis thing where we're going to make it seem as
there's nothing wrong with it atall, and we're going to push it
through and then we'll figure itout from there.
And to be honest with you, I don't know how I feel about
that. I feel like I could be on board
with that, given my history withit, but not everybody has the
same history. So every sympathy with the with,

(01:01:43):
if you do that, you just expressed mean what strikes me
in that context really is, is toask you.
Your own, if you feel you've benefited from a cycle that
you're not respecting dealing with it with OCD and I can
relate to OCD, are I think touches of a OCD myself I'm

(01:02:03):
still upset about about certain things, especially when I get a
new book on the open it quietly and private and and so and such
like and don't touch that one. And so I can and my father was
very much, you see dear needed later life when he was And
towards a touch, it dementia. And such like, it really was

(01:02:26):
quite bad. So I'm quite familiar with with
OCD. And I've had two happiest of my
life and when I've had that beena little bit problematical but
but I'm assuming that this was through your own self.
Experimentation, with LSD of youdidn't take it.
Nephew therapeutic. Connor.
What it was an RCA, actually, I'm not a big OST guy, I'm not

(01:02:46):
against it. I just I've taken Alice the fair
amount in my life. It's just more of a heady thing
I like so Simonson. It's more all-encompassing more
of a body feel more of a yeah, so much gentler.
Yeah, drop somewhere between between, I just feel more at
home with it, you know. Like, if you have a spirit
animal or plant or what I like, that's my, the fungi is my

(01:03:09):
thing, you know? But, um, but to that, to that
regard, I also think it's made me a better person to because
it's allowed me to think about on my own life and through
examining my own life, and my own skeletons of my Things may
issues and different things likethat.
It's made me a Kinder more empathetic gentler person.
So I do think that there is a way that that can work through

(01:03:31):
you. I just don't think it's as
simple as giving somebody something and saying, you'll be
fine. I think that there's a lot more
layers to it than just that. Yeah, but the point to me that
is that you, you self-medicated,so to speak and it's not quite
self-medicated, it is what it isfor, but that it was for your
own personal use and your own personal circumstances and

(01:03:54):
usually journey through your life, to come to the point of
taking it and you had to have certain assumptions about it and
so on and that fit into your your experience.
But it was through your own choice in your own
experimentation. And I mean I cannot imagine
putting myself in the hands of atherapist under the influence of

(01:04:18):
a psychedelic. Oh yeah.
But again, Frank Beamer. Oh no my Lord.
That you tripped me before. I'm not a person that's going to
go sit in a circle in South America and do Ayahuasca with a
bunch of people. If I was going to do DMT and
I've the EMTs like the Last Frontier for me.
It's the one that I still have not done and I've done all right

(01:04:39):
away and if I were to do it I wouldn't be doing it in a group
of people. I would have a babysitter
somebody I trust watching me while I do and that's about it.
Not that's not to say. That doesn't work for other
people. I know other people that love to
go sit ceremony and love to sit.With friends and colleagues and
different things. But again, I think it's just
knowing yourself know that, you know, goes back to the old,

(01:05:00):
thales know thyself. And if you know yourself, you
know, with these compounds. But I will say this, to your
point. I think I know where you were
going. I don't know if you were going
to say this, but to imagine thatthis would become a Mainstay of
like therapy. Like you.
They're recommending people. Go trip.
I don't agree with that. I think it should be something
that you still seek yourself. Like, yeah.

(01:05:22):
I guess what I'm saying is this I don't think that it should be
prescribed, like how other things are prescribed.
You should still be open to wanting to do it and not like as
a regular part of whatever medical, you know, I don't like
how, you know, how they were just kicking out ssris for
years. Like I don't think it should be
anything like that. I think it should because it's

(01:05:42):
so powerful. It's still should be up to the
person. Maybe we offer it more easily
and give more knowledge, and background and everything.
And and hey, if you want to try this, but here's the downside,
here's the upside kind of a thing and allow people to figure
it out on their own. Yeah, I think what I was trying
to suggest here is that there's a lot of this plenty of popular

(01:06:06):
wisdom. Mm to be found about
psychedelics and if you if you seek it out, if you open to to
that and I'm an advocate we're already is the transgression
essay at the beginning of the book, really is a Comedown
rather against medicalization. I'm not saying there's not a

(01:06:26):
place for it, I'm not against it.
If you're not going to stop it, I mean, Farmers going to get
hold of them and and something will develop their, we've yet to
see exactly where that all goes.And then against again I'm kind
of against the the formal spiritual is for me for me.

(01:06:47):
But but I feel it's the history that I identify with is is the
artistic and creative use of psychedelics in in what is a you
know part generally speaking of a kind of Subculture, I suppose.

(01:07:07):
And that's what historically I guess I identify identify.
We haven't been a teenager in the seventies and, and mentality
in a particular kind of context and then returned to me my own
story, which you didn't actuallyasked me at the beginning is
all, you know, what was my original experience or, why did
I have even had an interest in, that's a rookie podcast move,

(01:07:27):
but let's get it in here now, give us a little summary, but
only to show you that my Introduction was in the
seventies, as a teenager. And, you know, kids at school
were talking about LSD and I thought, well, I got to try this
and that is where it started, but I did then move away into
the kind of getting there without drugs, kind of thing,

(01:07:48):
and an experiment with other other things in kind of drifted
away and then I got made redundant from, I was working
for like a hippie company, enforcing Japanese, some
seaweeds and such like, and Is made redundant walked out by
much bigger company and of understory there.
And my wife said to me and what my thinking, why didn't go to

(01:08:10):
university and just purely by Chance?
The local is a Polytechnic at that time.
Now now is a university and theyhad a history of ideas.
Course there are a lot of one ofthe, I think the only one in the
country quite unusual. So we study his just Science,
History of philosophy, history of Art, and so on history of bit

(01:08:31):
of everything, really And so I took my Graduate Studies there
and graduation history of ideas and he was kind of after that
that I was kind of moved to apply some of the disciplines.
I hope that I took kind of learnthrough just as an undergraduate
there and started applying them to my injuries as well.

(01:08:51):
That was what I didn't really say there is that that was about
the time that Terence McKenna was coming in to interview and
picked up one of his books. The one with the nice toned ape
theory in it. And I would have got that and
food you got. There we go.
Yeah. And that was my that renewed, my
interest in something you've gotreally quite moved away from and

(01:09:14):
so that renewed my interest and I kind of moved it in there and
my brother. My late brother, unfortunately
passed away. We both experienced a bit with
actually back in the 70s and opened a new realm.
Are people can become the expert.
Garlic mushrooms is like a science guy.
I was always arts and he was, you know, in the, in the, the

(01:09:36):
Airing cupboard. It only had good little boxes
and jars of tinfoil on the hero stuff.
An expert mushroom cultivator hair in my, my light.
My late brother, lovely guy fromthe, he had that he have to have
the, you have to have the willingness to be absolutely
scrupulously, clean. And, and all of that kind of

(01:09:56):
stuff. Those kind of disciplines, which
are not. I'm not really in here that
patients to do all of that, all of that stuff.
But the only way, You die are interested in.
He back in the 70s, we were without picking mushrooms.
When that became with this facility.
I'd be mushrooms. And in the fields when they when
those first came into the news. But anyway, that was my
background and and I started writing and it was really

(01:10:18):
through meeting Chris, been attacked in Vancouver and went
to one of his honours here. We've had Chris son, Chris got a
new book coming out too soon about in Judea cannabis rituals.
Yes. Make Chris out in Vancouver.
I went out to conference there and they're everywhere met Carl
and Blaze who before he passed away.

(01:10:39):
And And things really took off from from there.
So it was a kind of Revival of interest in my part that got me
started in reading and writing Nice.
Yeah, I know. It's a it's a good back story.
I, yeah, I think Chris is probably one of the best

(01:11:00):
cannabis writers out there to behonest with you.
We had a mind for his part of our what was Soma Series, where
we were discussing the differentcandidates for Soma and
obviously his cannabis. And yeah, I'd like to I'd like
to hook up again we for some time, but we have to make a wise
one to make him dinner. Went out there and spoke second.

(01:11:22):
For us to eat healthy but, but there we are.
Yes, it's I have already his last book going with the title
of it. There's nothing I move to.
I think he's on the East Coast Canada.
Now he was living being covered.Yeah.
You think he's like New Brunswick or whatever East Coast
this? Yeah.
Yeah he's come a long long way and I hope we've all come a lot

(01:11:45):
along my in his most recent occasion is really really pretty
good stuff. We'll listen now and well let's
wrap it up here. I like to get you back on some
time in the future gonna there'sprobably a lot we can discuss
and maybe even next time we can get pde in here and because I
know he had some good questions when I mentioned you were coming
on. He's like, oh, I got to be on
that episode. And then, unfortunately, today
he had to jump on a plane a lot earlier than he thought.

(01:12:08):
But yeah, I really enjoyed this one connections that are between
people between people's stuff. I've haven't actually had a
chance to read it. I got his angels in Vermillion.
Yeah, there's dignity to that little bit.
And yes very very interesting stuff.
Yeah harm. Yeah, everybody check it out.

(01:12:31):
You can go to psychedelic press website and purchase it.
I also have the Amazon link to afew of the Hop back copies left
so there only, I think like, 300and hardbacks.
Yep. Thank you.
Two rabbits, psychedelic press. They also thank you for setting
this up and listen. Yeah, like I said, L, I'd love
to get you back on again in the future and And appreciate what

(01:12:53):
you're doing. And I love this kind of
research. And obviously, you're passionate
about the topic which comes through your writing and your
interest in the topic which is always.
Yeah, I think that's the one thing I look for when I look for
guests and stuff. So but listen, I really started
having me. Yeah, no problem and good luck
with your book. I'm sure it'll do well, it's

(01:13:15):
already Dino. It's I've already seen it out
there. Tons people reading it.
So but yeah, you know, we're going to wrap it up here.
We buddy again, please check outAllen's book.
The link is down below at the bottom and yeah, you can follow
them on Twitter. I believe your Twitter handle is
ahead. It here.
Let me pull it up. Follow them on Twitter at What

(01:13:42):
do we have here? Yep, it's AT&T Zan Jo.
And yeah, you can follow us on Twitter at Mike escape and yeah,
that's it. If you want to support, mind
Escape click, the link tree linkdown below.
All of our links are on there. We do our show Live on YouTube

(01:14:04):
and we are also on all audio platforms to we have video
episodes on Spotify. So, check us out on there and a
good way. To support the show is just to
leave us a nice review, we really appreciate that on Apple
podcast Spotify, whatever it is and if you have not already our
documentary is out, it's called as within.
So, without from UFOs, to DMT, where we look at those phenomena

(01:14:27):
and correlation with the mind, Iwill play the trailer as we exit
here today and again, check out our link is down below, Maurice
and I are working on a way to get that out there to more
people. Shortly and it will be
premiering at our buddy Toby's Film Festival.
The Roswell Daily records putting on a film festival.

(01:14:50):
At the end of May beginning of June, so please check that out.
And that's it. We love everybody.
Stay safe out there and we'll catch you next time.
Peace. Thanks so much for your time,
have to believe. Something's here, there's no
question about that. They are not just from this
planet, but based on the Characteristics.

(01:15:12):
Their most often described having that they're simply us
from the future. It was the biggest aircraft I've
ever seen in my entire life. It was semi-translucent.
It seemed we see for orange orbsflying one after another.
Basically in formation, I think in a way you know you could call

(01:15:32):
a UFO or flying dream. All of the cornfield that 7 foot
tall, gray missing, communion looking alien or whatever you
want. To call it because it can be a
multitude of things of deities of Godlike creatures of aliens.
The reality that we experience on a day-to-day basis seems to

(01:15:53):
be this very, very thin slice ofsomething far, larger and far
more complex as within. So, without from UFOs to DMT.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Alan Piper Explains The Secret History of LSD and Bicycle Day Episode #279

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Alan Piper Explains The Secret History of LSD and Bicycle Day Episode #279

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