Dr. Gregory Little & P.D. Newman Explain Native American Entheogens Episode #292

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Welcome back to Mikey Morris's Mind Escape.
Let us help you escape your mind.

(00:42):
All right, folks, Welcome back to Mike Maurice's Mind Escape.
We have episode #292. Tonight, we have a very special
episode Here, let me just tell you something.
Two friends of the show, 2 amazing researchers.
This is going to be an amazing, amazing show, and I'm.
I'm going to hype it up. Put a little pressure on them.

(01:04):
Make sure they get their thinking caps on now.
This is going to be awesome. We have special guest Doctor
Gregory Little coming back on tonight and we also have PD
Newman back on. Both are very well versed in
Native American culture and metaphysics and as well as we're

(01:26):
going to get into some compounds.
And I aptly named the title of this episode Mounds and
Compounds. So that's what we're going to be
discussing here tonight and it'sgoing to be awesome.
So before we get started, if youdon't know who Doctor Greg is,
you can check out all of his books.
I mean, he's got a ton of them out there.
I don't even know, probably over20, maybe even over 30.

(01:47):
We don't know, maybe even more than that.
Some people say it's it's gets lost in translation sometimes,
but no. But I have the link down to at
the bottom. If you go all the way to the
bottom you, you'll see PD's links.
But in right above that you'll see Doctor Greg's links to all
of his Amazon Books or books, I should say, on Amazon.

(02:08):
And if you're looking for a bookon mounds, he has basically what
I would call the best, the best resource for Native American
mounds and earthworks, which is the illustrated encyclopedia of
Native American mounds and earthworks.
So go check that out. Hard copy and yeah, we've had
him on to discuss everything from UFO's to Atlantis to Edgar

(02:33):
Casey in the past, and you can find all those episodes below.
There's a link. Now let's move on to PDPD's.
Been a guest on the show regularly, and he is an author
as well. You might have heard of his book
Alchemically Stoned or is newer 1 Angels in Vermilion and he?
I think he even has a new one coming out soon too.

(02:55):
But yeah, go check out his linksdown below as well.
Check out his books. I highly recommend both of their
books. I'm not just saying that because
they're friends of the show or they've been on a bunch.
They're both very, very well researched.
And as somebody who likes to investigate these mysteries and
metaphysics and stuff, I'd say they're probably two of the more

(03:16):
I don't know how to put this. I don't, I don't get a sense of
BS from anything that they've either of them have done.
And and I can't say that about anybody else in the Fringe
community. So that's why they're on here
and that's why we're going to talk.
There's a lot of validity of validity to a lot of the things

(03:37):
that they say. So and one more thing, if you
want to support mine escape, click the link, tree the link
down below. Both of these fine gentlemen are
in our documentary, which is free on our YouTube channel.
We've got a merch store. Leave us a nice review, whatever
you want to do, but we're going to move on now.
So without further ado, welcome on the show Dr. Greg and welcome

(04:00):
on the show PD. Thank you.
Good to be here. All right, well, let's start off
with PDI reached out to PD because and he didn't even know
this, I don't think. And you can speak to this, but I
was watching one of Joe Rogan's most recent episodes with Brian
Rescue where they were talking about, you know, ancient

(04:21):
psychedelic use and they were talking about Native Americans
and they brought, he brought a black drink, which is something
that you've discussed a lot. And actually we've discussed it
on a few of the last episodes that you've been on previous to
this. So why don't you give us a
little bit of a background on what black drink is and we'll go

(04:42):
from there. Sure, black drink is a.
It's a it's a drink that was made by different Mississippian
groups and it it's made from yawpon holly, which is the only
native source of caffeine in North America.

(05:05):
But in the the woodcuts and art imagery depicting this ritual,
you see the men drinking it and vomiting over and over, and they
drink it from these, these massive shell cups.
And the vomiting led botanists to classify this as Ilex

(05:25):
vomitoria because they believed it was an emetic, A purgative,
And they do, the natives do or did use it as a purgative before
going to war and before rites ofpassage and things.
But. Just.
You know, I I do a lot of experimentation with these
plants myself and when I found. Y'all pond Holly first growing

(05:49):
out here, I thought, well, I'll try it, you know, I'll see what
the effects are. And at no dose did it make me
vomit. I mean, I and we drank tons of
it. I got the jitters.
Like I drank too much coffee. But at no point did I feel like
I was going to vomit. And this was my first indication
that there was something else atwork.
And in the back of my mind, you know, I was naturally thinking.

(06:12):
About ayahuasca, which is South American tea made from NN
dimethyltryptamine containing plants and which isn't normally
orally active. It can be, but it's not normally
and it's mixed with a monomine oxidase inhibitor which comes
from other plants, but in certain regions it's known as La
perga the purge because it's known to make you vomit.

(06:36):
So I thought, well, it wouldn't be interesting if they were
using other plants along with this.
And the more I dug, the more I found out that depending on the
setting in which they're drinking this black drink, the
the plant additives change. They're different for different
settings. And that that's kind of was my
first indication that there might be something to this.

(06:59):
And then a group of researchers got together and did some mass
spec. Analysis of these various black
drink vessels that they recovered from Spiro and it
turned out that something like 80% of them tested positive for
Detura alkaloids and that had never been even considered that

(07:23):
they were mixing Detura with this black drink.
But yes it's it's it's a mini it's many things.
It's also known as sometimes as the white drink, which seems
confusing but. White it comes from both its
purgative aspects, the the cleanliness part of it, cleaning
yourself out. And also they would mix it,

(07:47):
strain it and mix it and mix it and then it would cause this big
thick white froth on top of it. So it could also appear white
depending on how much they actually aerated it.
But yeah, that's basically what what black drink is.
Before we go any further, we might have a little bit of a we
were talking before you got on and you were mentioning white in

(08:07):
a different way. Dr. Greg, do you?
Yeah, according to There's a There's a really cool old Say
old. I think it's in the 80s or 70s.
I can't remember and I don't seethe date 82.
Great book. I know PD Knows It by Charles

(08:28):
Hudson. Hudson called the Southeastern
Indians, and it has just loads of good.
Stories about the use of the black drink and the white center
that when I say white I don't mean the color of the drink but
the the first Europeans that interacted with natives that
were using the substance. And according to Hudson he said

(08:51):
that the Indian that the nativesdid refer to it usually as the
white drink and but because it was black the Europeans called
it the black drink. That's Hudson's interpretation.
I am not sure that I know that Hudson back at that time they
hadn't done as much research on it.

(09:12):
They certainly didn't know Detura was in it and a lot of
other substances, but they really didn't know what the
substance was that caused them to vomit.
And there are descriptions in this book of the vomiting where
they almost made a contest out of it to where they would
project. Petey's laughing about this, but

(09:34):
they would project it to see whocould vomit the most and the
furthest, and they would do thisrepeatedly.
And it was a purification ritual.
And if you've ever done something like that, yeah, it is
purification ritual. But he did of course find the
the amounts of the caffeine thatwas involved.

(09:58):
And it's supposedly it's like 10times as potent as the caffeine.
That we typically get within coffee.
So but I don't recommend people go out and try it that's that's
my little spiel on all that. But anyway that that's just a
little sideline on it. No, because that's why you're
here, I. Would I would like to ask him
the question about hemp if I canand can I go ahead and go ahead?

(10:22):
This. All right, So, Pete, let me make
this really clear. PD knows.
Far more than I do about the useof substances, far more in the
native. No, it's true.
I've been to a lot of mounds. I might, and that's saying a lot
cuz Greg studied psychopharmacology.
Yeah, but, but. Still, I don't know anything

(10:43):
about the as much about the Native American use with it.
It wasn't of interest to me. Until fairly recent years.
So yeah, I've been to loads of mounds.
I've written descriptions of themounds and I've looked into the
the so-called history that we know about them and dates and
that kind of stuff. I know a bit about the pottery.
I was never that interested in pottery.

(11:03):
It was actually PD that got me interested in all that.
So in in some of my recent research and I've got a little
replica of a Hopewell pipe here.And another one here.
I've got a bunch of replicas, but I keep reading online people
are claiming, and it's usually on marijuana and hemp sites,

(11:26):
that they found marijuana and hemp residue in the pipes.
And now I've searched literature, even recently, and
looked for any kind of scientific papers where that
said that the Native American populations had even used hemp.
In here as maybe to mix tobacco with or whatever, but I can't

(11:49):
find a trace of that. So do you know anything of
anything published in the scientific literature where they
have found traces of marijuana or hemp in the pipes?
Absolutely not. Excuse me.
Y'all got to excuse me. I'm having some chest issues.
I'm just getting over a cold. I've never read anything about

(12:10):
cannabis. In Native American culture now,
there is something that's calledIndian hemp that grows
everywhere out here, but it's not a cannabinoid.
It's not unless they're confusing it with that.
And you know how diverse the Kinney Connect blends can get.
They'll put different tribes will put all kinds of plants in

(12:32):
there. So I wouldn't put it past some
of them to have put Indian hemp.In there.
And if that's the reference, we can see where the confusion
would come in. But I I've never seen cannabis
use among any American cultures.Well, that that that helps me.
That clears it up a bit. Even on Twitter probably one of
my most asked questions, the probably the top two or three

(12:54):
questions is what they've smokedin the pipes, what was in the
pipes and my answer is always primary.
I always use primarily as a primarily tobacco.
And I say that it was that it had, it was basically 10 or more
times as potent as what we have today and I think that remains.
Is that correct? That's still accurate.

(13:17):
Yep. Aren't you a big promotement
proponent of? Yeah, I was going to say, aren't
you a proponent of Rustica, which doesn't have, like, a way
higher nicotine? Yeah, it can.
It can have 3. Some sources say as much as nine
times as much. Nicotine in it.
Very potent stuff. And there are, did you say

(13:40):
that's an MAOI as well, the Rustica?
Yeah, Rustica is an MAOI, that'sright.
So it it would be enough to potentiate dimethyltryptamine,
but that's that's primarily in the southeast it would have been
Rustica. Now there's in the southwest,
it's still tobacco, but it's this.
It's Nicotiana obtusopholia, which is.

(14:03):
It's still potent, but not nearly as potent as the rustica
and the abtusopholia interestingstory author, a man named Jamie
Paul Land that lives in Phoenix,AZ.
I get an opportunity to go out there and visit him and his
family about. About.
Every year. Every other year.
And he took me to I think it's called Deer Park Reserve.

(14:27):
The petroglyph site and the petroglyphs are they occupy.
One specific area of this this reserve, but the reserve itself
is many acres. And as we were walking
underneath almost every petroglyph, I was seeing the
same plants. And I would and there's a

(14:48):
railing. So I couldn't see them well
enough to know what they were. And I jumped over this railing
and went and looked at them and every single one of them were
either Datura or. Nicotiana up to Sopholia, the
the tobacco under virtually every petroglyph.
And we thought, well, it must just grow wild out here.

(15:09):
And so we started looking over the reserve and we must have
covered 10 or 11 acres and didn't find a single other
specimen of either plant anywhere out there.
And so I consulted some different botanist friends of
mine and asked them Is it possible that these plants?
Have been growing here since these petroglyphs were made, and

(15:29):
they said absolutely that the seeds fall and they grow in the
same spots year after year afteryear for potentially centuries.
So it's a good indication they were using those both together.
And in the Southeast, there's a lot of examples of tobacco being
used with black nightshade. Black nightshade can be
confusing because we have three different plants here in America

(15:51):
that answer to that. Name one of them.
Solanum nigram doesn't grow herein the southeast, it only grows
in the southwest areas, so we know they weren't using that.
If they were, they were getting it imported to them somehow.
The other one, Solanum americanum, is a new world

(16:13):
plant. It was brought over with
contact, so it wouldn't have been here previous to contact.
The third, however, is native. And it grows all over the
southeast, and it's Solanum Tycanthem that's spelled with a
PPTY Tycanthem. And there are lots of instances
where they're finding that used in conjunction with tobacco and

(16:36):
various complexes and in in association with this, they
constantly find the remains of birds, different kinds of birds,
usually waterfowl. Connected somehow to either the
imagery or the pipe itself. And this has led a number of
different scholars to propose that it's a clear indication of

(16:57):
a of a shamanic connection, a shamanic flight that's being
induced by combining these two plants.
Very interesting. While we're on detera, I might
as well bring it up because I did have pictures, which by the
way, if anybody's listening juston an audio platform like Will
Spotify, we have video too. But if you're listening on

(17:17):
Apple, there is some images and videos along with you know,
overlaying and what they're saying.
I will pull this up right now. This is the pin, the great
pinwheel art from Pinwheel Cave and they initially thought it
was some sort of, you know, spiral Galaxy or some sort of

(17:38):
cosmological symbol like you would see in other parts of the
world. However, then they found this,
which I'll pull that back up. It looks exactly like the top of
a detura flower. Now they found chewed up detura
quids in the pinwheel cave stuffed up in like little holes,

(18:01):
and quids are just like little bundles that they chew on.
And I was that. That's The Chew mash, right?
Is that correct? Yeah, and the true I have a long
history of using the Torah and rites of passage, particularly
for young males. So once you reach around age 7
to 9, they would give you a big dose of this.

(18:24):
And reports vary on why they would do it.
Some of them say that it opens them up to the the spiritual
plane. Some but other reports say that
it actually gives them a spirit.Like a second soul and Greg's
talked a lot about the two soul model and the Native American
traditions. But it could also be something
like a genius or a Damon. Very much like you would acquire

(18:48):
a spirit and and other ancient cultures, but they would give it
considerably young. And I don't.
I think only the shamans and I Iuse the word shaman reluctantly.
They wouldn't have used that word, but only their holy men
would have used it. Repeatedly throughout their
lives for certain purposes. Unless I'm mistaken, I believe

(19:10):
that the rest of the tribe were only given it given to them
during this young rite of passage, so they were definitely
using it outside of just those quids and whatnot.
Can I interject a quick questionhere for absolutely and some
some things that I'm writing right now?

(19:31):
I've. Read that the word shaman was
first used around late 1600s, like 1690, something like that.
That's when the word was coined.So what do you think they did
call themselves? It would change with the group.

(19:51):
There's a here in the Mini. One, I'm sorry.
Go ahead. Here, here in the South, among
the Chickasaw and the Choctaw, Ibelieve they had a a similar
word. It's escaping me right now.
It'll it'll come to me in a minute.

(20:13):
But it's nothing like. The word shaman itself comes
from the Tungustic people out ofSiberia, and it was used.
By. Outsiders.
You know, trying to come up withsome word that they could use to
describe these other practices that look so similar.
And as you know, there's there'sa lot of evidence that shows

(20:34):
that some of those practices probably did come in through the
north and down around the South from from those areas.
But yeah, the word, the word itself is toongoustic and the
the Chickasaw term, it'll come to me in a minute.
Go ahead. The, the, the Choctaw had a
word. That meant one who knows and it

(20:59):
was Nan Kana. Nan Kana.
And the the only reason I know that is because and you've been
to a business that I'm associated with and behind the
business there is a stream in Memphis called Nan Kana Creek.
And for years I knew it was an Indian word.
But I didn't know what it was. And what it means is one who

(21:22):
knows. And I've always and I I haven't
been able to find out more aboutthat one term, but I suspect
that is the word for a shaman inChoctaw.
That's my guess that. Would make sense.
The the the whole nose notion ofknowing noses that shows up holy

(21:43):
men and initiates of various places.
The word used for them is something having to do with the
right. He knows.
Oh, it's it's Alkisi. I think that's how easy is the
Chickasaw term, and I don't knowthe the actual meaning of it,
but that's what they call their their healers slash sears.

(22:04):
Yeah, Okay. Very interesting.
Yeah. So we're talking about tatura,
pinwheel cave. Why do you think scopolamine or
scopolamine, people pronounce itdifferently?
How do you think? Why do you think that was such a
favorable compound for the native?
Do you think it's just because it was available, you know, via,

(22:28):
you know, deter is probably one of the more widely spread.
I mean throughout the US you can, I would think that you
could find it in any state. I don't know that for sure, but
I think it's one of those types of plants where it's found kind
of like everywhere. I think it's it boils down to.
It's what works and it's effective every time now.

(22:52):
It's not predictive every time. You have to be quite skilled at
navigating those territories, have your sea legs to even, in
my opinion, be able to approach nightshades and scopolamine.
It's very dangerous. It's probably, it's arguably the
most dangerous of the, what we would call hallucinogenic

(23:12):
plants. But there's there's mythologies
wrapped up around them, you know, all the way down into
Mexico and South America. And it's a striking plant.
You know, if you when you see them, the flowers smell amazing.
Yeah, I. Just pulled up some some
trumpets. These funny, funny story I saw
last week. I'm like Instagram or TikTok the

(23:36):
this woman and her friend. We're at a party and they said
some angels, trumpets. And they were just smelling them
and they couldn't figure out whythey were getting like so like
fucked. I like what what's going on, you
know? And then I'm then it's like
clear like oh, that girls basically sniffing, you know and
angels, trumpets just getting all that pal and up.
But you know so, but like. Themselves are lightly

(24:02):
intoxicating. OK, one of the better ways to
use it that's safe is to place. A flower or a flowering plant
near your bed when you sleep andjust smelling it, The effect on
on dream recall lucidity. It's unparalleled.

(24:23):
Yeah, again though they are dangerous biologically, these
are not the same. You know, We talk a lot about
tryptamines and phenylamines anddifferent things on this
podcast, different classifications of psychedelic
drugs. But as far as?
You know, effects on your biology.
I think that nightshades are obviously the most dangerous.
I mean, maybe there's a more dangerous one you can think of,

(24:43):
but I mean, Greg. You've heard of tobacco sickness
that you can get from harvestinggreen tobacco.
Yeah, I had. I had an employee that worked
for me who grew up on a tobacco farm and they used to.
He said that he got sick severaltimes.
Walking through the fields wouldbe hot.

(25:04):
It was in a. Very hot area.
They wouldn't wear a shirt. They sweat a lot.
And yeah, and some people actually had, they get the
shakes because they'd overdose on nicotine.
Yes. And it can give you very
longterm effects. I wanted to ask you too about

(25:24):
the scopolamine. It used to be back in the late
60s and 1970s. Fat Somonex The over the counter
sleeping aid called Somonex had scopolamine in it and it was
used by people who were taking LSD or other hallucinogens.

(25:48):
Usually it was LSD or the LSD that often had.
Amphetamines in it, they call them orange barrels and things
like that. The people would take the
Somonex to come down from the trip because those, when you had
amphetamine mixed with the LSD, the trips could last a couple
days at a time. So the way they come down is by

(26:09):
taking Somonex. You can't, it's not in Somonex
anymore. I want to make that clear.
People are run into the drugstore.
Let's get. It it's not there, you can't.
You can't get it now. But it's surprising, I know it
was used as a sleep aid. I used Sommon X when I was very

(26:30):
young. When I say very young, as in my
early 20s, mainly as a sleeping aid.
I've always had trouble getting to sleep and it was quite
effective. Yeah, I can't remember having
any hallucinogenic effects from it.
Maybe other than less of dreams.I'm not familiar with Somonex,
but I know it's used in dentistry and like my mother

(26:50):
she's a nurse and she she's a Hospice nurse and she keeps
scopolamine patches that they use for various purposes and and
if you get like homeopathic teething pit tablet for babies,
they make those with belladonna.But of course homeopathic it's
so diluted it wouldn't affect you and that way anyway.

(27:10):
But the only other medicinal. Application I know of are these
asthma cigarettes you can look up asthma door they would it
would have cannabis, datura, belladonna.
Sometimes henbane would be mixedin there so I know it was used
that way. The reason I brought up tobacco

(27:32):
cygnus is this. You can get the same thing from
nightshades and I experienced this the first time with my
wife. We.
Came upon this, this abandoned house in Tupelo that had Angel
trumpets growing everywhere out in the front of it.
And we decided we would get out and just pick some flowers.

(27:53):
And we were loading up on these flowers and before I knew it,
just from the SAP, from not SAP,but it's just the juices out of
it, from picking those flowers getting on our hands.
We got so like, kind of just just scared because we were so
far from home. We knew we needed to get
somewhere safe, but it it came on so quick and unexpected.

(28:16):
But you can get the same thing, that's just handle.
It that's funny that you say that about Scopala means.
So I think I'm trying to think who the guest was might have
been Matthew Palamerri maybe like two or three times ago when
he was on. But he mentioned one of his
friends gardening and cutting a bunch of detour of, like, roots

(28:36):
and getting like the. The goo on his fingers or hands
or cuts on his hands and then somehow he became like super
intoxicated and he couldn't figure out why, but he thinks
that that's so now you're talking about something similar,
like how? How does that get into your body
so easily if that's the case? Well, and that's you've heard

(28:57):
about the witches ointment, the witches hallucinogens that they
would allegedly put in these ointments, boil it up and pig
fat and then smear it all over their body.
There definitely were witches ointments later the earliest
reference are Tom Hat says points us out in his book The
Witches Ointment that there there really wasn't a witch's

(29:18):
ointment in the beginning but there became one as this kind of
myth of an A flying ointment evolved.
But I I have some that I use. It's on top of my shelf up there
that was made by Kobe Michael and it's a detera ointment and.

(29:38):
Traditionally it's not just for psychoactive purposes or to help
you sleep. They also use use these plants
as poultices for sprains, bruises, aches and things like
that. And that's how we first started
using it. My wife has some trouble.
She's got a called Ehlers Donlo Syndrome where she she's she's

(29:59):
incredibly double jointed and her joints will come out and
they when they do it hurts. And we tried this to see if it
would help in it. It's been a miracle drug for
her, but I found that it's really good just for meditative
practices. Also, there's a definite A
definite shift that happens putting it on topically and it's

(30:21):
it's more manageable than ingesting it for sure, but it's
still dangerous. Yeah, I think scopal means the
perfect. Example of Paracelsus is dosage
makes the poison right because you can get a scope lamine patch
if you've got seasickness and itdoesn't really probably do

(30:42):
anything psychoactively to you. But then on the highest people
are mixing brumancia in ayahuasca and having these nuts
which a lot of people that I know that do ayahuasca don't
recommend it. Why mix deter.
Yeah. Toe exactly So but yeah so and
earlier when I when I. When I brought up, you know, the

(31:02):
Joe Rogan and the drinking, the black drink, I forgot to mention
that your name was actually mentioned Joe Rogan.
Brian mentioned he said Danny Newman, which if you don't know,
that's obviously Pd's real names, Danny, but we call him
PD. So if you were confused by that,
that's who that is. Yeah, and Joe Rogan followed me
on Instagram right after that. I was kind of shocked.

(31:23):
You're. Famous bro, You're Rogan.
Famous is. That what it is.
So my needs to. To let my wife know.
Yeah, we. Gotta we gotta hold on to your
coattails while we come. Will you ask how these
substances could get in the bodyfrom, you know, through the
skin, anybody who's working outside a lot, anybody who is

(31:44):
wearing shorts and you're you'rewalking through untamed land,
you're gonna have little cuts and scrapes and all over your
body and all over your hands andyou're you're definitely gonna.
Touch the plants, so just no wayaround it.
So that may be enough to do it. I used to grow a lot of

(32:04):
nightshade in my backyard because it looked beautiful.
When I lived in a lake, we had this hill going down and we grew
loads of it there. I knew what it was, but it was
the plants were so beautiful andthey lasted four or five years.
They kept coming back and then just simply died out.
But I've never, I want to make it clear.

(32:24):
I've never tried any of that. The.
Yeah. Sure, pal.
Sir, I said. Yeah, sure, pal.
No, that's true. Never tried any of that, none of
these, none of these kinds of substances.
I have definitely tried other hallucinogenics and marijuana

(32:44):
and so on. And the statute of limitations
has passed on everything. Yeah.
Actually, if you're interested, I think we have a few Patreons
with you. We're really.
Let it loose and let us know what you've done.
So but I the natural stuff aboutthe only what's what's the I'm
trying to think the only naturalthing that I took and it was a

(33:08):
test to see what it would do. And I can't.
Nutmeg. Nutmeg is the only thing.
And nutmeg is incredibly it's incredibly stupid to take nutmeg
and have a hallucinogenic experience.
The reason is. That with nutmeg, the lethal
dose or the damage dose is just above the effective dose, so you

(33:31):
have to take enough nutmeg to have the effect.
But if you take any more beyond that, you can get liver damage
and lots of other problems with it.
So it's just incredibly stupid to do that.
And so I admit, I've done some incredibly stupid things before.
I never tried the nutmeg before.I've always read about it.

(33:53):
You know Charlie Parker, the famous jazz sax player?
He liked to put nutmeg in his cocacola before a show.
Wow, it interesting. It has an effect.
I will say that it is and it lasts probably 24 to 48 hours.

(34:17):
It it lasts crazy. And it's because the liver can't
metabolize it. It's blocking up the liver, the.
The sailors the sailors drug because it was discovered by
sailors traveling spice back in they probably.
Ran out of food. They're like, let's just eat the
spices. I have I have a grim war.

(34:40):
I'm researching a lot of grim wars.
Right now, magical text from Europe.
And there there's one that talksabout it's a love spell to get a
this a woman to fall in love with you or a man.
But the spell is to to eat an entire a whole nutmeg.
And I imagine that's pretty probably pretty close to a

(35:03):
dangerous I, don't I. Never did.
I never did the. They usually talked about
tablespoons. And essentially with a can of
nutmeg and it's ground nutmeg that you put an eggnog every
year for for Christmas or whatever, it's.
I don't even want to say how much you, but it's a lot and it
just in in massive doses it justtastes terrible.

(35:25):
It is and it's hard to hold down.
You're going to throw up, probably.
It's hard to hold down and. It's not anything that if
somebody did it once, it's probably not anything they would
want to do more than once. But it does last 24 to 48 hours.
It doesn't put you to sleep. Yeah, that's that's, yeah,

(35:49):
pretty bad stuff. Yeah, you know the interesting
thing about all these kind so like, obvious.
I've been doing psychedelics nowfor over 20 years and the
interesting thing to me is. Because I am interested in
ancient civilizations and ancient knowledge and esoteric
stuff, I would have thought thattryptamines would have been way

(36:10):
more prevalent, but seems to me based on Native American
culture, the Romans, the Greeks,just to name a few.
But like tro pains really. Were heavily favored in a lot of
civilizations where I don't find, I don't like them, I don't
find them pleasant. I'm more of a tryptamine guy,

(36:31):
but I just find that very interesting.
Yeah. Well, they had mushrooms, yeah.
There were mushrooms available, of course I know.
I know, but you don't really seetoo many mushroom depictions in
Greek art, if there's any. No, not in Greek or.
Native Americans that I think part of the well.
Yeah, yeah. Sacred Mushroom Rituals and the.

(36:51):
What is that the the Vienna codecs has depictions of, you
know, ceremonies and stuff like that and.
Greg wrote about the the mushroom effigy wand that was
found in Newark. Well, effigy, yeah.
Where was? Why don't you tell us a little
bit about that? It was.
The Newark Earthworks where theyfound.

(37:12):
That's right. Yeah.
Newark, yeah. Yeah, and.
The problem with that is they don't grow year round.
Right. You're not going to find Newark.
OH is pretty cold in the winter so they don't.
So the mushrooms don't come up. And the weird thing that I know
about is the the ritual where I am certain that they shared

(37:33):
these hallucinogenic substances with the masses were done in the
dead of winter because like the black drink weren't wasn't
shared with the masses. And I know, I know, PD knows
that and women generally. Except for one.
And that was a secret. One woman could use it, but
women didn't use the black drink.
But I know it that they used hallucinogens in the winter

(37:57):
ceremonies and the rituals of the dead.
And that to me, that's actually what I've been focusing on
lately. Not necessarily the use of the
rituals or the hallucinogens, but the rituals themselves.
And I've wondered, did they store those?
Did somebody walk around with a bag full of dried mushrooms?

(38:18):
I think what would have been thecase when I was researching the
book, we don't know what it's going to be called yet.
But the book I have come out with other traditions on Native
American shamanism in the Mississippi Valley when I was
looking at at that mushroom effigy wand.
Because in the literature, most of the scholars identify it as

(38:42):
an Amanita muscaria, but the. It's the dimensions are all
wrong for an animated, but when you look at Newark in that area
there are between 10:00 and 12:00 different psilocybin
mushrooms that grow there at different times of the year.
And I I I boiled it down to whatI think are the two best

(39:05):
candidates, but I don't know howprevalent they are out there.
I don't know how easy it is to identify them when it comes to
to fungus. You really have to be an expert
to to be able to pick the right kinds.
Unless you're you know here in the South, everybody knows what
the if you're. Looking for a good follow on,

(39:28):
you know, mycology, obviously Paul Stavitz, but pictures and
identification is actually Alan Rockefeller and he has different
groups on Facebook and all the platforms.
So check out Alan Rockefeller. He's a great resource on
mycology. Interesting.
Well, we were in Newark a few months ago and well now it's not
been a few, it's been there's a few months ago.

(39:50):
And actually we spent a week traveling around up there.
And I did see mushrooms in a variety of places where there
were mounds in the in the mountains and in flatland
throughout Ohio encountered themin the woods.
Everything from Fort Ancient Ohio.

(40:11):
Newark is to mode. It's a, it's a golf course or
it's been a golf course up to today and it's so it's mode and
you don't see any there. But at Fort Ancient, at the
Williamson Mound site and the Pollock earthworks, which is
near there, and also at what's called Fort Miami, which was a a

(40:33):
Hopewell era for we saw some mushrooms there too.
I am not an expert to identify mushrooms, but I would have bet
that some of those were psilocybin mushrooms.
And I've actually read archaeological reports now where
they they say that they they know that they had psilocybin

(40:55):
mushrooms and they would have had experts in identifying them.
They would have pretty much beendevoted to that from early life
on, so somebody would have knownthat.
I think so too. And I think that you're probably
spot on with with the saying that they probably stored them

(41:16):
because they were experts at food preservation.
They would have known how to store it properly.
And how long would they? How long could they be kept?
How long could you dry and keep a mushroom like that without an
airtight plastic bag, for example?
How well? Can that be done?
I'll step in here because I do know a lot about psilocybin, so

(41:37):
the if you just leave them sitting out in like a sealed ish
container, they're going to slowly lose their potency.
Most people keep them in their freezer or make capsules or
whatever they're going to do, but.
It does slowly. If you had like if they if they
dried them out during the summeror the fall or whatever they

(41:59):
could or spring they could have easily that would last.
I think you could probably get loose and genic you know
properties. I've I found old bags and you
know, 3-4 years old that still do something to you.
So yeah, of course in the winterup there, they could have frozen
them. That's true.
And if it was the same winter, the same year that they picked

(42:21):
them, I think it's absolutely possible.
Yeah, Chasing Mound Builders mentions honey.
That's a good way to preserve it, too.
You could make tincture. You could.
There's a lot of. Stuff.
I don't know when. When honey became a thing, they
had a a form of honey that they got from from Central America.
Yeah. We've had Tom Lane talking about

(42:41):
that Black Bee or whatever, where that's right.
That's it, yeah. And that so.
But it's not honey like we know it but it might have the same
properties. I'm not sure but it's a but as
far as true honey from bees, I don't know when that became a a
part of their practice. So I had another question for PD

(43:03):
on this, if I can ask it. Is that okay?
This is the Greg Little show. Go ahead.
No, it's not the no. It is.
No. Yeah, it is.
I'm happy. I'm like, listening to this.
Go ahead. All right, so, so, Honey locust.
All right, so in in Hudson's book here, Hudson talks about
the honey locust and the making of tea out of the leaves.

(43:24):
Of course, he never mentions theroots.
And of course Hudson's book is now 80 to 40 years old.
So in the in those forty years, I suspect there's a lot more
evidence that's come out. What are you aware of in the in
the literature where they talk about maybe finding evidence of

(43:45):
the use of the root bark of the honey locust?
So the best you know why. You know why I'm asking it?
The reason being that most most academics don't know this.
I know. It's only in one.
Source and that the source is not an academic source.
He tested it on himself and it'sa man that calls himself keeper

(44:08):
of the trout. And he wrote this book called
Some Simple Tryptamines where hewas basically trying everything
in the most mimosoides family, from Acacia to mimosas.
That everything he get his handson testing them to see if they
were psychoactive and he was testing them on himself and
through different lab techniques.

(44:30):
But he found it in the roots of Honey locust, which is Gladizia
triacantos. It's also known as Acacia
Americana, but it's the best. And I and I believe the earliest
source is James Mooney. And you know all about James
Mooney when he's talking about, I believe it's he's talking

(44:54):
about the Navajo. I could be wrong though that.
No, they're they're in our area.They're self selfeastern, but
he's talked. Manny wrote about the Cherokee
too. And Cherokee.
That's Cherokee, not the novel, and in it, first he says that he

(45:19):
gives a couple of mids, and the myth it's in is called The
Gambler. But there's this.
The hero twins. The same hero twins that pop up
everywhere from South America toCentral America to all these
different native tribes. The myth is probably a what's

(45:40):
called a charter for an initiation ritual.
That would have been a very realrite of passage that boys would
have went through, but the myth is that he's trying to find.
His father. And he finds out that his father
is the son, God the son figure. You know it changes with the the
way it's told Sometimes he's notthe son.

(46:02):
Sometimes he's just God and and it's I hate to use that word
because it's a very different way of thinking about it than
Westerners do today. But he approaches him, and he's
put through these rites of passage and.
The first Test is he has to lay down on this bed that he doesn't
know is made of thorns from the Honey Locust and when that

(46:26):
doesn't kill him he has to go play the ball game with the
chunky game. I'm not sure if it's chunky or
if it's going to be the stick ball because that's not really
spelled out and Mooney, but he has to go play this the the ball
game with his other sons. And in this his mother pulls him

(46:50):
aside and tells him that they'regoing to try and kill him during
this game and he has to stop thegame by shooting his lightning
because you know the hero twins are Thunder and lightning
figures has to shoot his lightning at the honey locust
tree and when he does this the the his father will stop the

(47:13):
game because he doesn't want to lose that tree.
And now? In a different section of the
same study, Mooney talks about how they would make the the
sticks for the stickball game out of the honey locust.
And it would be particularly made from a honey locust that
had been struck by lightning because they believe that a
deity lived in it, which, excuseme, was a lightning deity.

(47:36):
And they would also. And this is where where it
really starts to sound. It's like something's going on.
In addition to taking that ash from where the lightning strikes
and drawing crosses on their shoulders, which is the what
they put on before they play this game, they take the roots

(47:57):
of the honey locust and chew them, and then they take the
spit and rub it all over their body so they're they're covering
themselves and. And tryptamines and chewing on
it, definitely. Probably swallowing some in the
process. And then the final rite of
passage for this boy is he has to climb into a pot with that's

(48:22):
already has the roots of the honey locust in it and it's
going to boil him and it boils them and and kills them and and
he comes back to life. Or in some versions, it doesn't
kill him. It doesn't faze them at all,
but. The indication is that they're
boiling these roots already in this setting.
Now, as far as what the ritual would have looked like, this
this was a charter for there's no telling.

(48:46):
It could have been something as simple as a test of faith to see
if they would get in the pot to be boiled.
Who knows? But that's the first indication
that we have that the roots are being a boiled and B smeared all
over the body and C chewed on. And and again, if that was if

(49:06):
that, what else? It doesn't say anything about
other ingredients in that pot with the roots.
And there there are are gorgets that you can find, this what's
called the spaghetti style gorgets that have the boy in the
pot with the roots. You can see him boiling in the
shell, but there's no indicationof other plants added to it.

(49:27):
But in the event that there were, if this was mixed with a
black drink ceremony, the the I Alex Vomitoria has trace amounts
of Mao I's in it. Nicotianna Rustica has trace
amounts of Mao I's in it. The other plant that that grows
everywhere around here is Passa Flora Encarnada, the very alien

(49:49):
looking passion flower. It's loaded with Mao i's, so if
any of these were mixed with. That that honey locust the the
result would have been somethingvirtually indistinguishable from
what we would call ayahuasca. And just so everybody knows, he

(50:09):
he released it on here, you know, last episode.
But the misawaska analog theory is definitely PD.
So if you see any psychedelic people out there, let us know
because they're straight up, youknow, trying to Jack that idea.
Well, thank you. I suspect it'll it'll get out of

(50:30):
hand once once well. Let's just say there's already
people jacking ideas from people.
I see it all the time so. I get it all the time myself.
Greg's probably been victimized the most by the Jackie.
No, I am. I have been amazed at what Mr.
Newman here has has done in thisresearch.

(50:51):
And I've told him that he's beenvery kind to me.
We met, I don't know, maybe a year ago, maybe something like
that, I don't know. But when you're my age, time
kind of does weird things, so it's hard to tell when something
happened. But anyway, his research is
absolutely incredible. What he has uncovered with this,

(51:14):
all these old myths he talks about.
I've got the the book that he's talking about with Moody's stuff
on the Cherokee. I don't know how many pages that
Moody's part is. These are, these are giant books
put out by the Smithsonian's Bureau of Ethnology in the late
1800s. Most of them are 67800 pages
long. And Moody's and they're in,

(51:36):
they're in like 9 point type, which is it's it's a little
smaller than newspaper print, but the man has gone through all
these stories of hundreds and hundreds of pages and pulled out
these this mythology. And I've read this stuff too.
Here's where, here's what's incredible to me.
I've read all that stuff and it's so boggled my mind.

(51:59):
It's like that. I'm not going to pay any
attention to the mythology. I'm not paying attention to
that. I'm going to do exactly what the
archaeologist did. I'll tell you what the
archaeologist did. They went out and they measured
mounds. They would dig into them.
They'd pull the pottery out. They get different styles of
pottery, figure out when they were made, figure out where the
cultures traded, tried to come up with some dates and so on.

(52:22):
And that was about it. And that is kind of the route
that I took too. I'd read the mythology, but
because it was so dense and hardto understand and it really
takes somebody focusing. I mean, you have to mentally
focus And then, no, it's like the spaghetti that what he

(52:45):
called the gorget. The spaghetti gorgets have been
a mystery of what they are. They are shells.
They are carvings on shells. They're about this big around
and they have designs on them. They have two holes at the top.
And the the leaders of the tribeor the important elite members
of the tribe would wear these suspended around their neck and
they had symbols on them. Well, the spaghetti gorgets had

(53:07):
people on them, or images of caricatures of people, and there
are these odd squiggly shapes all over that look like
spaghetti. That's why they were called
spaghetti gorgets. Well, I I looked at those many,
many years ago, decades ago, andit's kind of like nobody knew
what they were. None of the archaeologists

(53:27):
speculated on any of that. They had no idea none. 0 Yet the
Harris PD who by studying other people's stuff, by really
digging into the details, has put all this together and put it
all together with the actual substances they use because up
to this time, the substances they used were different forms

(53:49):
of tobacco. We knew they used hallucinogenic
mushrooms. That's been known since, well, a
long time. And we knew they made different
kinds of tea out of all the the natural stuff out there.
And that was about it. There really was not a lot of
understanding about what they were doing in the rituals and

(54:10):
what the substances were, so I've got to hand it to him.
He's opened my mind a great dealand I've told him that.
I've told him that I've learned a far more from him than he
learned from me and never will learn from me.
I don't. Think so?
You were the person who turned me on to the whole phenomenon I
had. I had never looked twice at the
Southeastern Ceremonial Complex until I read your book On the

(54:32):
Path. And then Graham Hancock hadn't.
Neither. Graham Hancock hadn't neither.
People are not all that aware ofit, although if they'd read his
book and go to the very end of it and read like a paragraph,
they'll see Hancock read The Path of Souls.
And he had the Mountain Encyclopedia, and that was his
introduction to these things. But that's a relatively simple

(54:55):
idea. The Path of Souls is relatively
simple, and I didn't come up with that.
I simply kept up with what the ethnographers have been doing in
recent times and popularized it,and I referenced that I don't.
I didn't come up with anything new in this.
Nothing. You laid.
It out in a way that was much easier to grasp.
Well, I I went back to you know F Kent Riley and and George

(55:20):
Lankford and all those major guys and I think your
presentation of it. There's this is spread around.
It's modeled, I know. Then you got to you have to
piece it together. You, you pieced it together into
a a coherent, concise picture that just got my mind reeling

(55:40):
when I was reading a book. Well, I I appreciate it.
But I I remember standing on a mound with you and in downtown
Memphis, DeSoto, man. And I was explaining, and I
remember the time it happened. And I said, okay, the soul jumps
to the West. And I, because I I've been down
there at night or early in the morning watching Orion's nebula

(56:03):
sink into that western horizon. I used to live on the river
downtown. And I watched this for over a
year, happening while I was writing the book.
Every night I'd be out at 3:00 and 4:00 AM walking, and then
I'd watch Orion's nebula sink. And I remember telling you that.
And I called it an ogi. I said it went into an OGI.
And you added something to it that I wish I'd put in the book
back then. And it was the idea that an Ogi

(56:27):
is a portal. It is an Ogi, but it's not a
portal to anywhere. It is simply like a shell.
You're you were correct and whatyou said, it allows the soul to
be tucked away into the cell, this this shell or this, this
container that then goes throughthe underworld and come up,

(56:47):
comes up the next night and the soul can hop on the Milky Way.
That's the path of soul stuff for people that don't know what
we're talking about here. But I remember that and when you
said that about the cup, it had never occurred to me that that
is what is on a lot of the images of the Path of Souls.
It is depicting that cup, it's depicting that specific portal,

(57:12):
not as a place that you go through and out.
Because we knew that wasn't the case.
It simply held the soul until the next night when it could get
on the Milky Way and then of course travel north and make it
to Cygnus. But anyway, I'm sorry, I'm, I
did write it up simply, but I missed a lot and I appreciate.
I think we were meant to meet with that and the first time we

(57:35):
met was on an Indian mound in downtown Memphis.
A weird one at that. Yes, a very strange one.
It's one of the strangest ones in the country, actually, With
that, with that rounded back, It's a square mound that has a
rounded back. It's bizarre, actually.
But anyway, so I'm rambling. Sorry, I'll shut up for a
minute. No.

(57:55):
You're good, you're good. And actually, I appreciate PD
too, because you kind of broughtGreg because I remember the
first few times we had him on, Itried to talk about this kind of
stuff and I just felt a little hesitation.
Maybe it's because I didn't bring the research that you've
done, you know, cuz I know he's obviously he understands

(58:15):
psychopharmacology and Native Americans and stuff like that,
but I don't I didn't know about like the Yao PA and the black
drink and all the connections and all the stuff.
I was just merely asking him about like stuff that they had
found. So I think that with your
research and everything, everything's kind of, you know,
come together where like he said, you guys, you two are
meant to meet between his knowledge of the metaphysics and

(58:35):
the rituals and stuff like that,and your knowledge and the
mounds and then your knowledge of the psychoactive compounds
and all that stuff. So it's.
A big deal and I think it it's always been relevant, but this
stuff just makes it that much more relevant and it and it.
Adds A dimension of complexity to what is largely seen as just

(58:58):
kind of simple people as simple tribes and and it's not simple.
It's very complex advanced ways of thinking and and acting and
interacting. I'm just amazed every time I I
learn anything about these cultures.
Now I'm still, I'm still learning about the Southwestern.

(59:19):
And stuff, you know that it's like a whole nother world.
There's a lot of crossover. But when you move from the
southeast to the southwest, it'sjust it's so different.
But I'm seeing, I'm seeing the same thing with the Southwestern
stuff. It's just as complex as the
Southeastern natives, but it it blows my mind.
So there's something that I wantto bring up here which Greg and

(59:42):
I kind of touched on before you jumped on the pre call PD which
is. So this is like a depiction of
one of the ceremonies here. I'll pull up the better one.
So you have the men sitting around there, and then you have
the women in the bottom right corner.
They're making the black drink. And you can kind of see the
shell, I think. Or no, this is not the one with

(01:00:03):
the shelter. Yeah.
Yeah. So my question is, I don't know
a ton about the Native American stuff, but I do know a ton about
the soma, homa, indo, Iranian migrations and all that kind of
stuff. The women prepared the soma
Homa, women prepared the Elucidian mysteries, Kekeon.

(01:00:25):
Do you think that that's, you know, there's some rhyme to that
reason why in all these culturesthe women are preparing these
psychoactive compounds? Or like, why do you think that
is? That's a good question.
I mean, I don't have an answer for that specifically.
Now. Have you ever heard of Chicha?

(01:00:47):
No, I have not. A corn.
A corn beer that that was produced in Central America.
I'll tell you a cool story and that and they may be related.
You know the Brewer? Dogfish Head?
Yeah, that was like one of the first dank beers circulating,

(01:01:08):
Yeah. They they used to have a a TV
show. They they didn't make many
episodes. But a TV show, just about some
of the more exotic beers they were brewing and they decided
they were going to make chicha. And traditionally chicha is made
by chewing the corn up and spitting it out into a container
and letting it ferment. So he's got all the guys in his

(01:01:32):
brewery chewing corn for hours and spitting it out in these,
you know, it's tearing up their mouths and and they leave it to
ferment and come back and there's no fermentation,
Nothing's happened. And they're they're really
perplexed by this. So they decide to travel down

(01:01:53):
and observe them making it in the in a natural setting and the
indigenous setting and there areno men making it.
It's only women. And it wasn't until they they
they told the women they tried to make it and they thought it
was hilarious. They said no, women have to do
it doesn't work if men do it. And it turns out that there's an
enzyme. In the saliva of a female that

(01:02:15):
is not present in the saliva of a male.
And this caused the reaction that results in chicha.
Now granted, I don't know of anyreaction like that happening in
this case, or even if they're chewing the stuff up, but it may
have begun A tradition of women making it, men drinking it.

(01:02:38):
Look at those designs on his body.
So somebody's asking about what's what he's holding.
That's that shell, that spiral. So they use like a conch, shell
or giant. Conch shells, and that's a small
one. I mean they are huge.
They get them from the used to get them from the Gulf of
Mexico. They don't even grow that large
anymore. But they they are huge.

(01:02:58):
When you see one in person, theywould have held an an
intimidating amount of liquid. One of the Back in the 1890s,
Clarence Bloomfield Moore excavated a mound It's not far
from Jacksonville called Mount Royal.

(01:03:20):
And in that mound they recoverednearly 300 of these welk shells.
And then they after that. In recent years they have found
that the ones in Spiro. And the ones that were actually
in Cahokia came from that exact area and probably came from the

(01:03:40):
same source. So they were moving those
around. Some of these have been I saw
earlier today when I was reading, I saw that some of
these actually were in the Southwest and they were all the
way up in Wisconsin mounds and and Michigan all the way up just
below the Great Lakes. They found these same Welk

(01:04:03):
shells. Oh yeah, we've got, we got the
shells here. I'm using them right now.
They they like the lightning welk because it spirals to the
left. You, if you look at most shells,
conk shells like that. The spiral is to the right.
But this one certain kind spirals to the left, and that's
what they preferred. And the connection of that has a

(01:04:25):
lot to do with left handedness. Used in these rituals
particularly associated with with bear one of their manitous
or minitos, which are kind of their their spirits or gods.
But bears. For example, in the Ojibwa they
tell a story about how a lot of the drugs that they use, the

(01:04:50):
medicines they use, they learnedabout by watching bears from a
distance, and bears are notorious for seeking out.
Plants that have intoxicating properties like the cocaine
bear, you know, like that's a true story because they like
they can, they can find them andthey like to use these, these

(01:05:10):
drugs. But the bear figure he he's
associated with grizzly man. Greg, you know that pipe, the
grizzly man pipe. And he is particularly
associated with the plea 80s theYeah, there you go.
The Plea 80s This is the genuineartifact.

(01:05:34):
No, really, Doctor Greg's got his Kinican nick in there.
Sorry, he's associated with the Plea 80s and for them, their
name for Plea 80s was He Who Holds a deer head in his Left
Hand. And on the the other form of the

(01:05:55):
grizzly manpipe where he's kneeling, he's got the deer head
in his hand. He's got the the teeth in it for
earrings. He's he the the left handedness
is associated specifically with this.
Well that's why he's left-handed.
There's some connection with bear and these shells and that
the left-handed thing also comesabout because there there's a a

(01:06:18):
myth they tell about how these hunters are coming in and
they're. They're coming into this village
of bears and they're going to shoot them.
And one of the bears hears aboutit and he scrambles to get his
his slippers on, his moccasins on, but he puts them on the
wrong feet and runs away and he becomes the ancestor that all

(01:06:41):
the, I think all the other bearsdie.
He's the one that's left and allthe new bears come from him.
So because he put his slippers on backwards, that's how they.
Explain why bears feet turn a different direction than other
animals than humans. Their their left shoe is on
their right foot and vice versa.But it introduced this whole

(01:07:02):
practice of left hand associations.
That's weird, bro. It's a synchronicity.
My nickname in high school was Bear given to me by Maurice, and
I'm left-handed. So yeah.
That's you're the bear man. You descend from that bear.
So the other interesting so we didn't really discuss it but so

(01:07:24):
they don't use the berries rightfrom that Yao pon holly.
So here's what the berries look like.
But I read don't they take the leaves and the twigs and then
they keep boiling it down till it becomes like a blackish goose
you roast? It first you have to yeah, yeah,
you roast. They said it like a like a like
a coffee bean or yeah, like takeour box leading pot or

(01:07:46):
something. That's exactly right.
And then they they don't use theberries.
The berries are actually a purgative.
You eat the berries, you go. I heard they're toxic, it says.
And I don't know if this is true, Online it says it can.
You can go into liver failure ifyou just.
I wouldn't doubt it, You know, it's true of a lot of berries,
but they would just use the leaves and the small twigs.

(01:08:07):
Not the big branches, but the small twigs.
They'd roast them. There are a couple of videos you
can look up with people doing itin the wild like camping and
and. Coming up on Y'all Pawn and and
roasting it in a in a a metal bowl or some kind of receptacle
and then making the tea out of it and it tastes great.

(01:08:28):
You know you it's not grassy it,it tastes like a tea.
It's very white. Now of course the concentrations
at which they were boiling it to, I think it would, you know,
it's almost like a syrup and it was probably pretty gnarly.
But yeah, I mean, it's a nomadic, right?
It's making people barf in the photo.

(01:08:49):
Not if you don't put the the drugs with it that cause it to
be an enematic. It doesn't do that.
OK, so so but the Yao Pond? That's what contains this, like,
super high dose of caffeine, correct, once it's been
decarboxylated. And monoamine oxidase
inhibitors. But it also contains theobromine
which is not good right? In large amounts, this.

(01:09:09):
Is in chocolate that shows up inYeah, that's actually.
Most people think chocolates. What causes dogs to go into It's
actually the theobromine. Large amounts of theobromine is
what causes that. That's.
What they found in the pictures and at Chaco Canyon, I think it
was in the room. 1830 I think there's an 8 in it, but they

(01:09:32):
found all of these different tall cups with specific designs
on them that looked very similarto the cups they used for the
chocolate ceremonies down in South America.
But this is in Chaco Canyon, youknow, and and and America's
North America, so. So.

(01:09:54):
You find. That do you find that they did
the same thing on their pottery where the designs on the pottery
in the southwest were intended to be a way to pass along the
information of what's supposed to be put in that pottery?
Absolutely. And you're the first person that
ever that I ever heard explainedthat too.

(01:10:18):
And you had a brilliant way of saying it, or of writing it.
Which I probably couldn't, couldn't even explain myself.
Well, I could explain it, but not as simply as you did, but I
found that pretty brilliant too.But you think they're but it
what you've seen in their pottery.
The designs did stipulate a way for the information to be passed

(01:10:41):
along about what these pots are used for, so they used to pots
for the same stuff over and over.
That's right. Yeah.
And specific vessels for specific compounds and.
You got to think, a group of people that don't have a written
language. I mean, and it's hard to say
that too, because like with the middle, we win.

(01:11:03):
They have a written language, but it's not universal.
They know how to write an idea down on their Birch bark
scrolls, but the person who wrote it has to explain to you
what it means. Nobody else could pick it up and
read it. So it's not a language in the
way we would think about it. So even though there there was a
written language, it wasn't one that anybody could pick up and

(01:11:23):
know. But if you make the vessel
specific to the contents, eitherin shape, the way you've
constructed it or in the painting the design on it, then
it becomes a physical representation mimicking the
thing they put in it. So for what?
The detura. There are a lot of different

(01:11:45):
cases where they use detour depending on the context changes
the vessel. You know, you'll see some that
have the old woman, the hunchback dwarf with the knobs
all over. Those knobs are are in an
attempt to mimic the spikes all over the detour seed pods.
And yeah, that's one right there.

(01:12:07):
Yeah, So what? They use that to bash it.
No, that's they're drinking the detura out of the okay.
I got you, got you. They.
Want to have one certain type ofexperience, but Detura is used
in a lot of different context, so you'll see different vessels.
Another one that is housed at Gilcrease Museum in Oklahoma.

(01:12:29):
It's got the spiral on the frontand then the jagged kind of
things coming down that. They now recognize as the
proboscis and the wing pattern of the tobacco moth that that
feeds only on tobacco and datura.
So this tobacco moth, even in their mythology becomes an
indicator for datura use. So.

(01:12:51):
He's. I can't remember the Singleton,
Eric Singleton I think is who did that that that study.
But they they tested the bottle.And sure enough, it tested
positive. For datura and that was the
first real clear argument that said yes this when we see this

(01:13:11):
moth we're looking at the possible that the use of datura.
What what I'm wondering is were they also using the moths?
Because these, the butterflies and moths, will feed on certain
toxic plants that make them bitter.
And even toxic to animals, theirto their predators.

(01:13:31):
And they do this to deter them from eating them, from wanting
to eat them. Well, that means they're
retaining the alkaloids in theirbody even after they go through
metamorphosis. So it made me wonder, were they
using the malls because we know that they were using the worms,
the tobacco horn worms that theypick off the plants.
There's a a myth that is. Definitely a charter for a

(01:13:56):
ritual process. Another rite of passage where
those two boys, those two twin hero boys, they're they have to
first they take these. They're pointed out to them.
The the person with them says, you see this.
I think his name's Wasadeck is what they call the the
Caterpillar. But he says, you see this.

(01:14:17):
He will. He will puke.
He will spit out blue puke. And he says, take it and put it
in your mouth, but don't chew it, but hold it in your mouth
and spit the juice out like you do tobacco.
So, and these worms have the ability, we know this, to to
retain nicotine in their bodies,whereas most insects would be

(01:14:38):
toxified by that. It doesn't affect them because
of a certain protein in their bodies, and it allows them to
both spit it out, like eject it and they can exhale it in the
form of a gas. So when a predator comes around
then they can breathe it out andit smells it and it will leave
them alone. Well, they're putting this in
their mouth and using it just like tobacco juice.

(01:15:00):
And they don't just feed on tobacco, they feed on detura
also. So they're using this worm as an
entheogenic substance that particularly it's vomit and
after in the same myth, after this, once they survive that
then they have to go and smoke. What they call from a Calumet,
the the sacred Calumet, they take off the wall and they have

(01:15:22):
to smoke the tobacco that kills is what they call it, which is
very probably Detura. They they recognize that they
were similar. They're both nightshades, even
though you know, we we officially classify them both as
nightshades, but they recognize that too.
But what sets the detura apart is it will kill you if you use
too much of it and they roll them.

(01:15:44):
These balls of it and pack it inthe Calumet and they smoke it
and they survive that too. And that's how they come to find
out. Sure enough, they're the hero
twins that were separated from this father figure, just like in
the the honey locust myth. But they still up on the
pottery. The You've seen the ones I sent

(01:16:05):
you the picture with? Even the worm.
Who has the eyes, the little eyes all over them, those eyes,
they they mimic. And of course that the, the, the
Ogi image, how it looks like an eye.
It's not an eye but it looks like an eye.
They would have immediately recognized that on those
caterpillars. I believe that I I just it's

(01:16:27):
that's that's interesting. Lately I've been seeing a lot of
different you know well from theI'm sure you saw the cicadas
with the psilocybin fungal bottoms on them and then you
have actually I sent you you were doing that research on
Hekate or Hekate whatever name is Hekate and I sent you that

(01:16:50):
fine from Pompeii where they found lizard tails in hekate or
Hekate. I think you I'm very good with
Greek words, but for some reasonthat one sounds more
Mesoamerican to me, for it does.But yeah, they found lizard
tails in those. What are they?

(01:17:11):
Vases, jars, or whatever with all the psychoactive wine?
They're. Called Dome.
Yeah, Domas, Domas, they found lizard tails in there, so that's
definitely associated. But then we were talking too and
I started looking. There's some seems like there
might be some psychoactive properties in some of these
lizard tails. Oh yeah, there's a I wrote about

(01:17:31):
that in my second book. If you look at Angels and
Vermillion, I put an appendix inthere.
About it was initially I was researching the reference to
Syrian rue in the heckity rituals from the Chaldean
oracles. They call it savage rue or wild
rue, which is Paganum harmala, avery potent, probably the most

(01:17:54):
potent source of MAOIS in a plant, and they're using it in
the construction of this statue.But the more I dug, the more I
found other references to rue. Being used with other things,
including lizards. And once I started digging into
that, there are, there are medical papers from India from

(01:18:15):
there's really bad in India where they'll catch these house
geckos. And that's actually in the same
Chaldean Oracle's ritual that I'm talking about.
She says to take the lizards that you find about the house,
that's exactly how she puts it. And in India, they're taking
these house geckos. And roasting them black and

(01:18:36):
powdering them and smoking them with opiates, that it's
increasing the effects of opiates.
And then in some cases they're mixing it with tobacco and with
cannabis. But it's it.
It made it look like it's an epidemic over there or
something, if that. The I found the earliest one.
They were saying we don't know what's going on with this, this.

(01:18:57):
This opiate addict is now addicted to smoking lizard tails
and he. It goes through 3 to 8 lizards a
day, you know, and then but the as the years go on I'm finding
where they're just crunching. This guy's just chopping lizard
tails, I'll chopping beaks, chopping lizard tails here

(01:19:17):
screen name made a funny comment.
I put it up on the screen. It says witches are just smarter
than everyone else and probably new.
Or probably where the tail of the Newt comes from.
You know, like when they're making their potions and their
bruise and whatever. Chopping amphibian and lizard
tail is probably where it came from.
It's possible in there. If you look in the Greek Magical
Papyri, which is the old book ofmagical spells from Graco,

(01:19:41):
Egypt, there's one in there thatthey say that they hide the true
identity of the substances they're using in these brews
under the names of animal parts.And this is probably part of
what influenced, for example, Macbeth when.
Shakespeare has them doing, you know, the eye of Newt and wing

(01:20:02):
of bat and all these things. You can find correlations to
virtually every tongue at the tongues of animals broken down
and telling you what plant it isthat these are actually plants.
So that gives it a whole new dimension of complexity that, I
mean, it doesn't call into question the intoxicating
properties of the lizards, but it shows that that kind of

(01:20:24):
language was being manipulated pretty early on.
Dr. Greg, so I've got some videos up here.
I'm gonna pull up one here of Cahokia.
OK, let's see here. This is like an aerial monks
mound. So is there any correlation

(01:20:50):
between these ritual and like obviously they didn't build the
mounds to do psychoactive compounds.
I'm sure that wasn't really the thinking, but was there any
connection between the mounds and specifically some of the,
you know, Rich? This is Cahokia, by the way, all
right. So, so leave the picture up a
minute. First of all that that is called

(01:21:10):
Monks Mound. It's 100 feet tall.
So it's tall as a 10 story building.
It's base covers 14 acres. The Great Pyramid at Giza covers
13 acres. So it's an acre.
It's base is covering one acre more than the Great Pyramid.
Back in 1987, nearly 5000 peoplewere on the top.

(01:21:32):
That gives you an idea of how big it is, because no matter
what you do with these pictures,you cannot tell how large they
are. You just can't tell what the
picture. I recently read an article by an
archaeologist who said it's almost useless showing picture
people pictures of mounds because you can't tell how
massive these things are. So anyway, yes, the answer is

(01:21:52):
yes, the people who determined. The the sizes, the layout, the
design, the angles and orientations of the mounds at
these sites were the same elite people who were involved in the
rituals and a lot of a lot of mound sites.

(01:22:15):
Not all of them, but a lot of them.
Their orientations and placements were specifically.
Done in a way so that rituals could be performed at very
specific times and of the year. For example, the winter
solstice, the summer solstice. Archaeologists have always told

(01:22:38):
us, oh, they were just used as acalendar.
That was all calendar, but we now know, you know, calendars
for planting. However, we now know that that's
not entirely the case these sites were designed to point to.
The risings and settings of certain stars and constellations

(01:22:59):
that were employed in rituals, it's really that simple.
So as far as the rituals go, a lot of the rituals did employ
hallucinogenic substances. I believe the winter solstice
ritual the Path of Souls, when primarily used doses of
psilocybin mushrooms. I don't think they gave the

(01:23:22):
populace the black drink, but itwas.
It's because it was such a long ritual that lasted an entire
night from sunset all the way tothe an hour or so after sunrise.
So the answer is yes. The same people designed them
and laid them out as who conducted the rituals.
And we know that the the shaman and the medicine people had

(01:23:46):
many, many classes. And secret societies.
The Meadowin societies of the Ojibwa had various groups within
them and they all had certain assignments.
The Zuni in the Southwest, I've,I've done a bit studying them
and that's actually part of whatI'm doing now.

(01:24:07):
But they had people that were assigned to doing nothing but
plants and plant medicine, the collecting and identification of
plants. And when they were asked how
they knew what plants did what, they said the gods told us that
they would interact with the gods.
So that's why I don't know if it's a simple answer, but that's

(01:24:29):
my answer. By the way, at the base of that
man, pretty much down toward thebase in the center, is a large
stone structure that was discovered in the late 1990s.
It has never been entered. When I say it's large, I think
it's 30 some feet tall. And about 70 feet long.

(01:24:49):
And I believe 45 feet fits, and I think it's 45 feet wide.
So it's a very large stone structure.
But a lot of these mounds, the temple mounds, were once a
smaller temple mound. And when the king or the leader
died, or the chief or whatever you want to call him died, they

(01:25:10):
would sometimes bury them. In the temple and burn the
temple and they would make a stone chamber around it and then
enlarge the mound. There's speculation that that
may be what it is at the base ofmonks.
Man, I've published a lot of photos of the stone chambers
found in mounds. They're not my photos.

(01:25:32):
Do you? What's the oldest?
I mean, I know. So I think that's changed.
Probably since the last time I was on right.
The oldest mound now is 9000 BC.Yeah.
So I was going to ask you. So the first time we had you on,
I believe we were talking about your book, Denisovan Origins
with Andrew Collins. And when we had you on, yeah, we

(01:25:55):
were talking about the South American mounds and how a lot of
them are older and we're talkingabout people traveling more and
probably people populated the Americas.
They keep talking about the Beringia and, you know, the kelp
highway and all these theories. But doesn't it just make more
sense that since people got to Easter Island through Polynesia
that they just continued on to South America?

(01:26:18):
Or, you know, something along those lines are back and forth
and? That's called the southern
route, and the southern route toa lot of people is already
proven. By the fact that in the Amazon
there are tribes that pretty much have had no contact or very
little contact with outsiders, and their genetics is identical

(01:26:38):
to the genetics of the indigenous people of Australia
and New Zealand and a few of theislands there.
There's that's where they came from.
There's no other place they could have come from and they've
been there for as far as they know they've been there forever.
But, but there is a there are many sites in South America that
date to 50,000 BCN. American archaeologists don't

(01:27:01):
accept that. They don't put it in the
textbooks. And since most of the people
that that read my books and readyour, you know, watch your show
are in North America, they're not.
And they're going to look at North American what North
American archaeologists said. North American archaeologists
ignore all that. They just say it's all nonsense
and cannot be. But yeah, I'm pretty sure that

(01:27:24):
South America was inhabited at least by 50,000 BC.
And there's very solid evidence in Mexico, near Mexico City at a
very bizarre site that dates to now 300,000 years ago.
It was initially discovered by Mexican archaeologists.

(01:27:44):
It's a there's an incredible story about the site.
There's a lot of films about it now, how the head of the museum
in Mexico City got very upset because he wasn't called in.
He claimed it was a hoax. The US Geological Survey are the
people who dated the artifacts at the site and dug some of them

(01:28:07):
out, and they initially dated to250,000 years ago.
Since then, in 2004 and 2005, a number of archaeologists have
gone back different groups from all over the world.
They have sent their samples to Germany and France and North
America, and they all come and the US Geological Survey.

(01:28:28):
Again, they all come back with dates between 250,000 years ago
to 400,000 years ago now. They would not be humans like
us. They would be some other branch
of humanity that is probably extinct.
Andrew and I did talk about the Denisovans as that group.

(01:28:49):
I don't believe those were Denisovans.
I think they are some other branch of humanity and it's
pretty clear that could be home on the lady.
We know we're seeing these. Well, there's.
There's a lot 300,000. There was an event 70,000 years
ago that caused the population bottleneck all over the world.

(01:29:10):
So I think the Americas were heavily settled long before then
and around 70,000 BC there was that disaster that occurred.
What they're saying is the recovery from the disaster took
place around 50,000 BC and the population started increasing
and that's the dates now that pop up.

(01:29:31):
In South America, over and over 50,000 BC, there's about 8-9
sites that go to 50,000. In North America, there's one
site that goes to 50,000 BC and that is the Topper site in South
Carolina that Albert Goodyear, archaeologist, University of
South Carolina, has been workingat for decades.

(01:29:52):
I spoke with an archaeologist who worked under Goodyear.
For years that he said the research is as solid as it can
be and the archaeologist is a skeptic, a well known skeptic.
I have several well known skeptics that I'm friendly with.
I can't mention their names. I can't talk about what they
read. You know, your BFF Zahi was.

(01:30:13):
Yeah, I. Don't talk to Zahi.
I'm joking. I'd have to.
I'd have to send. Some money over to talk to
Zahia, but. There's good evidence that the
Americas were settled long, longago.
A lot earlier, yeah. So I was going to mention
though, there's that cave which they're disputing now or
debating over. But the chiquite in Mexico,

(01:30:35):
which is 30,000 years old, they found like 200 stone tools and
lay different strata. And but then you have the people
that are skeptical, say no, those are flakes from The Cave
that fell and blah blah blah blah blah.
I mean, I saw a couple pictures of the tools, they look like
tools to me, but I mean, what doI know?
What is this? The cerudy site in in California

(01:30:57):
that came out just a couple years ago.
Cerudy's pretty old 33,000 BC. 133 and Louis B Leakey, famous
Louis Leakey back in the 70s and80s, found the site near Santa
Barbara. And it dated to 250,000 years

(01:31:18):
ago, and he staked his entire reputation on it.
Being a human occupied site, it was all human, he said.
And he was so criticized at the time that he withdrew completely
from public interaction. That's a true story.
Also so. There's a lot.
So what do we do here? You're the perfect person to ask

(01:31:39):
because we've talked about this many every time you're on.
So when I started this journey, this knowledge quest, I was very
much into the woo whatever sounded the most crazy to me but
had some sort of connection to reality is what I jumped at.
And now I find myself like you two and like some other people
who are doing, like real research, but it's considered

(01:32:00):
fringe. You know, those are the people I
look to. I can't look at more of these
big dogs that are in the alternative stuff anymore
because they're just, it's a lotof fluff, not a lot of actual.
So like, how do we navigate that?
There's real mysteries out there.
There's this fine line, but there's people that are just
making TV shows and content. And then there's people that are
actually passionate about. I can tell you're passionate

(01:32:22):
about. I can tell Petey's passionate
about it. There's people that are just in
and it's cliche talking about money and shows and blah, blah,
blah. But like, what do we do here?
Because there's a lot of people pushing BS out there in these
communities that are making people like you, like PD, like
other people that we've had on the show who again do real

(01:32:44):
research, you know, gives them kind of a bad name because some
of those people are snake oil salesman well.
First of all, you got to just let it go.
You got to make it irrelevant, not care about that and do what
you're passionate, where your passion goes and do the best you
can do. Where I think it's gonna go and
where I'm where I'm what I'm working on right now is taking

(01:33:07):
what Pd's doing what his research and taking the next
step, which actually is the woo.It is the woo.
And so the question is, and I know we've, we've.
We've actually talked about thisspecific thing.
Yeah, but you guys are actually talking.
You guys are talking about real,tangible, like you can show me a

(01:33:30):
spiral shell with the chemical and like, the people I'm talking
about don't have any of that. But people, they've got 10
million followers because they say insane, crazy shit that
people want to hear. Well, I think that the, to me
the the question that I'm working on is this, OK, so they
took hallucinogens. And I know when people go to

(01:33:50):
mound sites, they can have experiences.
I've been writing about that. I'm writing these little short
articles and those are all bits and pieces of books that are
coming. They're not things that I've
written before. It's like what happens when you
actually do a ritual? What's the point of it?
What happens? What are the electromagnetic
fields around mound sites? What's the effect of the geology

(01:34:12):
and the stones? And then what in the world
happens when you take like, ayahuasca or when you're taking
hallucinogens? What are you saying?
Are they simply hallucinations that have that, where the real
world is simply being altered and you are seeing things that
aren't there? Or is it actually opening you up

(01:34:34):
to something else, to some otherreality?
And I'll give you what just a very quick thing.
I'm doing a conference in a weekwith Andrew Collins here.
And at that conference I'm goingto say something that nobody in
Edgar Edgar Casey's stream of ofinfluence have ever heard before

(01:34:56):
because I'm into the, I have been in the Casey organization
for a long time and this is a Casey oriented conference.
So here's what I'm going to say.Edgar Casey was not a psychic.
The man was not a psychic. And it's a shame that that term
was ever applied to. And what Edgar Casey was, was a
combination. Well, he was a shaman.
That's what he was. He was a shaman and a medicine

(01:35:17):
person. And what shaman did is shaman
went into psychic trances and they used substances to go and
interact with the spiritual world with the powers, whatever
those powers are, and get information from them,
information that could help individuals and could help the
tribe. They sometimes.
Would They're not predictions because Casey never made

(01:35:38):
predictions. People keep talking about his
prophecies and predictions. It isn't that way when you
actually read it. What Edgar Casey said is if
things don't change, here is what is likely to occur and
often he would say you as an individual getting a reading,
you need to be careful. You need to you should think
about pulling your money out of the stock market, which he told

(01:35:59):
several people right before the 1929 crash.
That's how everybody says, oh, he predicted that the stock
market crash. Well, he told some people to get
their money out because there was a disturbance Okay.
Well, Casey also did healing. He never did handson healing.
He did the same thing that medicine people do.

(01:36:21):
Medicine people would often go into a trance.
And they would diagnose physicalproblems that individuals had
and they would then tell them touse herbal remedies.
That is what Edgar Casey did. He would go into a trance and
diagnose physical problems that people had or try to, and then
he would recommend a remedy. That is what Native American

(01:36:43):
medicine people did. And all his remedies had to do
with eating, doing a medics, eating a lot of apples.
Doing, you know, cleaning your body.
And he talked about actually vomiting at times.
Clean out your intestines, Cleanout your stomach.
Acidify your body, he taught. Alkali, your alkali, your body.
He talked about that kind of stuff, yeah.

(01:37:04):
And actually, if you read a lot of his papers, I mean, it's
universal knowledge that we would know now, but back then
they wouldn't have known a lot of the stuff that he was saying.
Exactly. Casey.
This guy Edgar Casey was not. Stupid man.
And he was very well read. People keep saying he was
illiterate. He wasn't illiterate.
He, he, Casey, worked in a bookstore.
He read so many books it was unreal.

(01:37:26):
He read newspapers. All that information was
absorbed to him. And that's exactly what a shaman
would have done in his world. A shaman would have grown up and
he would have learned all kinds of things from his all his years
of growing up that would have been his education.
And shaman were called Edgar Casey had they were called by
spirit forces. Edgar Casey had two experiences

(01:37:49):
where he met what's been interpreted as an Angel.
It was a being and a ball of light.
That's what it was, a being and a ball of light and the first
interaction. He has a child at age 13, which
is when many shamen are called and when this transition period
of the vision quest often took place.

(01:38:09):
Age 12 and 13 with Native Americans, this ball of light
being told him. That he would heal people,
mainly children. That is what happened in it.
And the second experience he hadwith the ball of light was the
same. Being came to him and told him
time to do it. He had to move.

(01:38:31):
He had to leave the farm in Hopkinsville near Hopkinsville
and move to town. That was the 2nd.
That's right, the same Hopkinsville as the Hopkinsville
Goblins. That's.
So my my point in this is. Shaman were called.
They often had these experiences.
They saw and interacted with little people.

(01:38:51):
So did Edgar Casey. And that's what everybody misses
in this. That's what people just, you
know, they call him a psychic all the time.
Like he was a fortune teller andhe wasn't he, he was totally
different. He was the first sort of modern
shaman, medicine man combination.
And I've pulled all these articles out of.

(01:39:15):
Of scientific journals where they've tried to define what a
shaman is. That's why I know when the term
shaman was first. He was, it was 1698 supposedly
by, yeah, a guy in Siberia. So he, he had all the same
attributes as the shaman becausethey were called they they had

(01:39:36):
visitations. There's loads of examples of
them talking about visitations in childhood.
They were told they were going to be healers.
And they were shown how to do it.
And Casey went into these trances.
He went out, He interacted with whatever that spiritual world
is. So to me, the real question is,
and this is where the woo goes, is it real or not?

(01:39:57):
What are these people tapping? What are they tapping?
That is the question to me. And that's what I find most
interesting, all the nuts and bolts of it.
This is nuts and bolts. These objects are nuts and
bolts. Yeah, they're really interesting
and what they've led us to like P D's work.
Looking at all this pottery, what it's led to is we

(01:40:18):
understand what the hell went inthose pots.
And then we know now what a lot of this stuff was used for, but
it wasn't to dope up. The society people get are going
to get the idea here that they sat around and they were like
potheads, smoke and no. Are.
Listen, I was going to. Say our listeners are pretty

(01:40:38):
well versed on psychedelics and candidates and stuff, but they
weren't. They used these at ritual times
primarily. Now it is true that the leaders,
they had rituals all the time because they met.
Just like we would have a City Hall meet or a mayor or a chief
or in the in the White House, inthe worm of the White House.

(01:41:02):
So that's where I think it's going that that to me is the
most interesting thing. But the battle over when America
was populated and all that, that's going to continue well
beyond my lifetime and yours too.
It'll continue well beyond that.So that, that's it.
That's all I got to say. Let let PD answer too.

(01:41:23):
I got a response to you. Know when you say what are you
tapping into? I've been using.
Various antheogenic plants and substances.
I mean, since I was 11 years old, that's when I started down
this road. And my overwhelming just

(01:41:49):
intuition, my feeling throughoutall those years, all of those
experiences, has always been that I'm, I'm not hallucinating.
I'm not seeing something that isn't there.
I'm seeing sometimes I think about it like you remember back
in the 90s you'd have cable but you could sign up for their
channels and the the Cableman would bring you a little adapter

(01:42:12):
that you'd screw on between yourcable box and the the cord and
all the sudden you get all theseother channels that you couldn't
get before like Cinemax and HBO.I think about it like that, like
the channels are always being broadcasted, but something
something's most of it's filtered out.
And Aldous Huxley talked about that, how there was a funnel in

(01:42:33):
the psyche that funnels out everything that's not pertinent
to your survival in that moment,but you can widen that funnel
with things like mescaline that allows more to come through,
more to come in. I think about it like that.
What do you think about that though?
I was going to, to your point really quick.

(01:42:54):
This is something I've mentionedmany times and I've had Andrew
Gilmore kind of go back and forth with me on it, but.
Tryptamines versus tropane, so like tryptamines plays off our
five H, T2A receptors. They're not biologically
harmful. They do allow you to experience
what you would think of as normal reality with some slight

(01:43:16):
variation, whether it be flowingpatterns and blah blah bell
colors, whatever, versus a tropane, which you can be kind
of like in an alternate. Realm completely or see
something somebody that's not. They're probably more akin to
like us like being super drunk and having hallucinations or
something like that. Do you think that there is a

(01:43:37):
difference between those compounds and they're like
connection to whatever this other realm is?
Meaning that like maybe a tryptamine would allow you to
see more tropane, kind of like, I don't know, it just seems like
it's more static or something. I.
Think about him as different, almost like different dimensions
you're tapping into. You're not seeing more with the
tryptamines, You're seeing something specific to the

(01:43:59):
tryptamines. And I always was reluctant to
articulate anything like that because it sounds so New Agey
and you have to have faith in a play.
But it wasn't until I. Know those people can't even
touch this conversation. Taking these substances with
other people and having shared hallucinations now.

(01:44:23):
The concept of what's called philia do.
It's a French psychology term for a madness shared by two.
Or you can have philia trois, or, you know, however many are
involved. That's an old concept, but just
cause we have a word for it doesn't mean it explains what's
happening. And I've had so many experiences

(01:44:46):
with other persons on mushrooms,on LSD, on.
Ayahuasca, where we're observingand discussing the same visuals
I've had experiences where legitimate telepathy was like.
Frequency sync, I call it. Yeah, and it's so unexplainable

(01:45:06):
if we're not looking at something that's real, even if
it's simply that we're looking into the projections of our own
unconscious and we're able to visualize that as a field
outside of ourself. That still is pretty heavy.
You know what like what do we dowith that?
But it it really, my intuition is that and I might be wrong,

(01:45:28):
but I really do feel like we're we're tapping into, observing,
participating with things that are always happening around us.
But that like Huxley said, our, our, our internal funnel filters
that out because it has nothing to do with our survival in this
moment, but. Sometimes you need a trip to the

(01:45:49):
underworld to bring back the Greeks.
Would do would do this for to bring back laws or like
Parmenides. Greg and I were talking about a
while ago and I sent him a quotefrom Parmenides today, but.
He's. The father of logic, he
introduced logic to Western philosophy, and he claims to
have gotten it by. What they call incubation,

(01:46:11):
laying down still for sometimes days at a time in a dark space
and traveling to the underworld where he met a goddess who
taught him this and he brings itback and it becomes the the law
that inaugurates a new era of mankind.
Epimenities is another ancient pre Socratic Greek philosopher

(01:46:34):
Who would? Leave his body, go into the
underworld and come back with new laws for people.
Yeah, I. Love to speculate, right?
Along the side to this, what he's talking about bringing back
techniques for healing, bringingback booms of wisdom, even
bringing back the souls of people, dead people and live
people. You know, if you, if you had, if

(01:46:56):
you were suffering from what we would call depression.
They would see that as one of your multiple souls having
gotten gotten away and is already kind of waiting on you
in the land of the dead, and theshaman has to go recover it and
bring it back. That sounds insane to us.
And and even more insane is the notion that you could get laws
that would govern an entire group of people from something

(01:47:19):
like this. But I truly believe that's
what's going on. And there there, there have been
innovations in the scientific world from this philosophy, the
philosophical world. Parmenides is a good example.
Earlier we were talking about Casey.
Greg was talking about Edgar Casey.
Wasn't there a case where he said that they needed a screw

(01:47:40):
put in their bone to put their bone, their broken bones back
together? And that was the first time a
screw had been used in in medicine.
Is that true? Wow, that I've never heard of
that. I wouldn't doubt it a bit that
there are lots of things where Casey I've.
Heard that too. Person to say something, but
that's one I have not heard. He did that, Okay.

(01:48:01):
It's probably true. I'm supposed to be a Casey
expert, but my God, there's 15,000 readings that are written
down. And I have.
I will. You're right.
But Casey, Casey had a lot of things like that where he was
correct in the healing stuff anda lot of very bizarre things
that we wouldn't have enough time to touch any of it.

(01:48:22):
There is something I want to sayand that is I believe it's all
electromagnetic. I've said it before here and
I've written that over and over.I think that hallucinogens
change. We're antenna, we are biological
antenna, and we interact with the electromagnetic fields
around us all the time. Every human has an
electromagnetic field, the Earthhas one.

(01:48:45):
Every object around you is reflecting electromagnetic
energy and we interact with it and I think.
That story of your buddy from your Origins of the Gods book?
Your buddy that was sitting in your chair?
Yeah. The Native American.
The Cheyenne Aero Priest. He wasn't a shame.

(01:49:07):
And he was an Aero Priest, whichis similar to a shame, yeah.
You can listen to our episode Origin of the Gods for that
story, Doctor. It's a pretty good story
regarding what we're talking about.
But PD, so you know, we were talking about the mysteries and
stuff like that. Here's this quote from Plato
from the Fato dialogue, which isour mysteries had a very real

(01:49:28):
meaning. He that has been purified and
initiated shall dealt dwell withthe gods.
Now this is assumed that this isthis comes from his experience
from the Elucidian mystery. Somebody else mentioned the
Elucidian mysteries in the comments.
I thought I'd bring it up. I've speculated this before.
I told you this, I think PD. Like I could totally see from

(01:49:51):
the Elucidian mysteries like Euclid, you know, seeing
geometrical patterns and then. Implementing them into real
life, I could see Plato, There'sthe plutonium cave right there,
right at a lucis. He could have had this
experience, walked over The Caveand came up with the allegory of
The Cave. Parmenides, you know, you

(01:50:13):
mentioned, you know, all these guys, Heraclitus, like, who
knows how many of them actually participated, But they come up
with these very interesting waysto look at the world and even
the universe. They respected the lady about
the universe, some of them at that point, so.
Do you have any thoughts? Like, do you think that those
are specifically tied to entheogens from the
hallucinating mysteries, or do you think those dudes were?

(01:50:34):
Yeah, yeah, that's what I thought.
Right here in the quote you see it says purified and initiated.
That refers to the two stages ofthe initiation.
Here in the West we think initiation means a beginning
initial, the initial stages of something.
But the words the Greek used arecatharsis for purification,
which is literally the purge, the purging part and then

(01:50:55):
initiation. What we translate is initiate is
their word telete, which actually means perfection.
It's not a beginning but an end.And that the same terminology
was adopted by the early Christian Church, the Orthodox
Christians. And they had what we would call
a three degree system very similar to Masonry and these
other initiatory orders where the first stage of of

(01:51:20):
participation is baptism. That's the purgation, the the
catharsis part, the second stage.
Is the initiation, the telete, the perfection.
This is done by anointing the crismation where they put an oil
on you. Now if you look at the earliest
example we have of what the early Christians were doing was

(01:51:40):
from a philosopher named Kelsus.And Kelsus is describing the
Christian secret initiatory practices and after they're
baptized, which during this baptism, they have to place a
plant in their mouth. That nobody knows what this
plant is, but the same plant shows up in plenty of the Elder
when he says that it's used in necromancy rituals, and it was

(01:52:04):
used once to call the spirit of Homer out of the underworld.
So it's directly associated withvisionary stuff, underworld
imagery. But then, following this,
they're anointed with something they call the white unguent of
the Tree of life. And this causes them to leave
their body and travel upwards through the seven levels of the

(01:52:25):
heavens Now origin the famous early Orthodox Christian Church.
Father, He rebutted this and he wrote this book an 8 I think an
8 volume rebuttal. But he didn't rebut this.
He didn't say no, we don't do that.
What he really complained about was that Kelsus got their levels
of heavens out of order. So his beef was that you you've

(01:52:48):
mixed our stuff up. Not that you're accusing us of
using this ointment that causes us to leave our body.
Those are the same 2 stages, Purified and Initiated Catharsis
and telete purgation, followed by the perfection which is is
taking you from zero to 100 using some substance.

(01:53:12):
Interesting. So the other aspect of this is,
so I was holding a Twitter spaceor X space, whatever you want to
call it. This was a while ago, This was
probably like a year ago, and itwas actually on UF O's believe,
believe it or not. There was a woman from Greece

(01:53:33):
who I don't know how we got talking about, but we started
talking about the Lucidian mysteries and I asked them like,
is it common knowledge that theyhad like ergot or some
psychoactive compound in the kekeon?
And she said that she thought itwas mushrooms.
And she said the reason why I think this is because the
ancient word for one grape is the same as mushroom or

(01:53:56):
something along those lines. So I don't know if that's true,
but maybe we can, you know, collaborate and follow up on
that and see if there's anythingto it.
Karl Rook has a book he wrote. You know he's most famous for
his road to Elusis, where they put forth the.
Ergotized Barley theory. But he's got another book called
Sacred Mushrooms of the Goddess where he's exploring all of the

(01:54:19):
potential references to mushrooms in an elucidian
context, and he does a great job.
Ruck always does a great job. Yeah, yeah, I know.
And I've been critical of Morescu and because of doesn't
he does never used psychedelics and he wrote a whole book on it
and everything, but there's a lot of good information in
there. So I recommend the immortality
key at least people check it outbecause there is actual

(01:54:41):
archaeological evidence in thereand stuff like that.
You know, and and with all thesepeople, you know, like we have
had Chris Benedon, I think he's an excellent cannabis scholar
and. You know, I think with SOMA and
all that stuff, look, there's people doing real research out
there. That's not necessarily within
academia, but it's very, very credible where they, when they

(01:55:02):
bring it to academia, they're like, whoa, you know, like this
is impressive. So these are the.
Academics. They work on grants, right?
You know they can only write about and research what they're
being paid to write about and research on.
Well, they're also. Getting a bad name, I will.
I do have to vouch from partly because when I started the show

(01:55:23):
I knew nothing about archaeology, but I was sure that
the pyramids had some weirder, you know, origin.
Now having look at looked at thearchaeological record, I
understand their frustration. There is a lot of stuff that is
easily explainable through logicand reason and the stuff that
they put out. However, most people going up

(01:55:43):
against them or saying. You know, this rhetoric or that
rhetoric from Graham Hancock or whatever that, you know, they're
the the cabal or the, you know, academia or whatever.
I don't think. I think that that's, if
anything, just a bad pattern or system, like there's flaws
within that system as opposed tothere being anything malignant.

(01:56:07):
I would say though. Most people do your research,
look at the mainstream, don't just say, oh they couldn't have
done this using whatever. Have you looked at all the
methods? Because there's a lot of
impressive research out there again and and some people are
doing mainstream research that aren't even in academia that are
doing cool stuff too. So you have to really look at

(01:56:27):
everything if you want to fight with people online.
I suggest you do your homework. I suggest you look at the
archaeological record. I suggest you look at the fringe
stuff. So if you're an archaeologist.
Know what the fringe people are talking about.
If you're a fringe person, know what the archaeologist or the
scientist or whoever is talking about.
That's the only way to knowledgeand truth, and I can't stress
that enough. And if you think that you can

(01:56:48):
watch one YouTube video or read one book and know everything,
that's not going to happen. Knowledge is hard.
Knowledge is hard. I.
Agree. So I don't know if there's
anything else you either of you wanted to touch on here before,
but we can start to wrap it up here in a minute if you would
like. I don't know if either of you,

(01:57:10):
well, this has been a true treatfor me.
I love both of you. You're awesome.
Doctor Greg's books are awesome.I love them.
You know, P D's works awesome. Love his research as well.
I think that again. You have to really take, you

(01:57:32):
have to do your homework is whatit comes down to.
There's stuff, you know if you want to have fun with this,
that's cool. But I again, I see a lot of
anger and people fighting and stuff like that.
It's just like I see a lot of stuff that I know to not be true
because I've put in the time andI'm not expecting everybody out
there put in the time. But again, I think you get you

(01:57:53):
you run dangerously close to Dunning Kruger when you start to
do that, so. Let's keep it on the up and up,
people. Come on, Love, light, peace.
If you don't know about something, try and learn
something. That's the other thing.
Instead of pretending like you know it about you, learn about
it from somebody. So, all right, enough
pontificating on my end, but I just ruined an amazing show,

(01:58:15):
folks. Yeah, I did.
No, you didn't. Yeah, you're absolutely correct.
That's that's exactly Pete. I'm I'm for people.
I say this all the time to people.
You're absolutely entitled your beliefs.
If you want to believe the pyramid is 100,000 years old,
that's fine. If you want to believe it was
built by aliens, that's fine. I.
Love John Anthony W He thought the Sphinx was potentially

(01:58:36):
35,000 years old. I'm not saying, you know,
whatever. But again, to your point, you
can like somebody and not agree with what they're saying.
Yeah, but there's no use arguing.
I don't people, people tell me things all the time on Twitter.
You know, I post mound stuff allthe time at Twitter.
They will make statements and I just, I don't reply.
There's no, you're saying you'rewrong or I disagree with it.

(01:58:59):
I don't do that. People are entitled to believe
what they want. I'm simply throwing out the
information. They can get what they want out
of it. And I think, I think that's
fine. We're in a world today where if
somebody disagrees, we'll get angry.
We shouldn't. People are entitled to believe
what they want to believe as long as you don't hurt others.
That's my belief anyway. That's how I live so.

(01:59:24):
That's the that's the old that'sthe only way to live, bro.
No, it was so. It was so profound that I
couldn't say anything. My mute button was on.
Go ahead, PD. That's I I don't have anything.
I totally agree. You're right.
Everything good begins with witheducation, and there there's

(01:59:45):
it's hard to know what to read because there's so much out
there that's just noise, you know?
But. The best place to start, the way
I I do it, is I go back to the early stuff and work my way up
and then you get a good picture of how the ideas change the
morphology and the topology of that territory.

(02:00:06):
You see where ideas come in and.No, that's not on, bro.
That's what you should be doing.It's perfect.
Again, I have my new philosophy is to learn something new every
day and implement that into my philosophy.
So it's always changing. I'm never going to die on a hill
because I'm always learning something new.
And I think if you don't have todo it that way, you could, you

(02:00:28):
know, have your own pet theory or whatever.
But I think that you have to be open to new data and ideas.
So PD, you're spot on, Doctor Greg, you're spot on.
I think we all, we all really, we all really learned something
here tonight and I really love that about this show.
All the amazing comments, Shout out to screen name, shout out to

(02:00:48):
Sam, shout out to Julie, shout out to MPV.
There's so many awesome people in the comments.
Dougal was in here earlier. Who else do we have here?
We got Chasing Mound Builders onhere.
Yeah. So thank you so much for
everybody that participated. Ask questions, interacted,

(02:01:09):
screen name, had some real zingers comedy wise.
So yeah, just so please go checkout Doctor Greg's books.
I have the links to all of his books down below.
I highly recommend them, Even his early stuff.
You know, you think some of the stuff's outdated, some of it's
more relevant than ever. The archetype experience on UF
O's and Gray aliens and stuff like that.

(02:01:31):
You know that stuff worth looking into And then on PDS and
read Alchemically Stone and thenfrom there check out Angels and
for Million and he's got a new one coming out to where he's
gonna probably talk about his misa waska hypothesis I've.
Got the The Theology Book. Oh yeah, that's right.
December 5th, and it'll probablybe.

(02:01:53):
What's the name of that one? What's the theorgy?
One named Theorgy. Theory and practice.
Mysteries of the Ascent to the Divine.
And it's looking at the same model that that.
That Greg talks about in his Path of Souls book.
But it's taken place in Greece and it's it's it's identical
that with the entry points in inthe Constellations and Getting

(02:02:14):
on the Milky Way and it's uncanny and I'm I'm happy with
it. It it's it explores the orgy for
the first time in in a practicalway which you don't see in any
of the other published. Focus on the subject.
Awesome. Well, we're looking forward to

(02:02:35):
that. Looking forward to both of them
and looking forward to Dr. Greg's next work too.
I think you should be doing, I think you should be doing mound.
I think you should be taking people on mound trips.
By the way, Dr. Greg. It's.
We've had so many requests. Do it, bro.
Just do it. We're.
Considering it the IT just. I've only got so much time left

(02:02:56):
and so much energy left, so I got to figure out where I'm
best. Fast forward a year from now.
He's performing shamanic ritual black drink rituals at Cahokia.
I would say that that is a liability.
That's a massive quicksand of liability right there.

(02:03:17):
All that is but. Yeah.
I'm. I've just got to stay on the
little track I'm on. I've got a lot of projects
juggling. I'm like a juggler juggling all
kinds of things. But I've always done that and I
just need to keep doing it. So I don't know.
We'll see. Awesome, man.
Well, I look forward to it. I appreciate.

(02:03:38):
The opportunity of course, no problem.
Again, check out both their works links down below.
If you want to support Mind Escape, the best way to do it is
to click the link tree link downbelow.
We've got a merch store. We've got Patreon.
Both of these fine gentlemen have episodes on our Patreon
that are exclusive. We have an extended version of
our documentary as Within So without from UFOs to DMT.

(02:04:01):
Both of these gentlemen are in that as well.
We have a free version of that as well on our YouTube, if
you're interested. And yeah, if you want to leave
us a nice review on Apple or Spotify, we do a video podcast
on Spotify. And if you're listening to this
again, there was slideshows and videos throughout this that
correlated with what we were talking about.

(02:04:22):
And thank you so much to both ofyou again.
I'm going to play the trailer for our documentary on the way
out and we will have both of these gentlemen on in the future
and maybe even again. This was fun.
I love this. All right, love, everybody stay
safe out there. Peace I.
Don't have to believe something's here.

(02:04:45):
There's no question about that. They are not just from this
planet, but based on the characteristics they're most
often described having that they're simply us from the
future it. Was the biggest aircraft I've
ever seen in my entire life. It was semi translucent, it
seemed we. See 4 orange orbs flying.

(02:05:07):
One after another, basically in formation.
I think in a way, you know, you could call a UFO a flying dream
out of. The.
That's 7 foot tall, Gray, menacing, communion, looking
alien, or whatever you want to call it.
Because. It can be.
Multitude of things of deities, of God, like creatures, of

(02:05:29):
aliens. The reality that we experience
on a day-to-day basis seems to be this very, very thin slice of
something far larger and far more complex as within, so
without from UFOs to DMT.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Dr. Gregory Little & P.D. Newman Explain Native American Entheogens Episode #292

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Dr. Gregory Little & P.D. Newman Explain Native American Entheogens Episode #292

Stuff You Should Know