September 12, 2024 • 31 mins
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Modern Church
Leader.
I'm here with my new bud, wes,all the way from Atlanta outside
of Atlanta.
And Wes your title saysStoryBrand Guide, so I feel like
we need to start with educatingour universe of pastors and
church leaders as to whatStoryBrand is.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Yeah.
So you know, most companies,organizations, nonprofits, et
cetera, really struggle to knowhow to talk about what they do,
what they sell, what theypromote, et cetera.
So StoryBrand is a frameworkbased off the book Building a
StoryBrand by Donna Miller,which is a name some of our
audience may remember from 20years ago blue like jazz.
But we don't want to go down,don't want to talk.
That's not what we're talkingabout here.
It's a framework that helpsbusinesses and organizations
(00:46):
really clarify their messaging.
You take seven core elements ofhow to tell a story and use
that as a structure for whateveryou're going to communicate.
So in my world, I often, mostoften, work with businesses.
So it becomes how do we talkabout our business?
How do we talk about ourproducts?
How do we talk about ourservices?
How do we say it on the websiteand emails and all the
different ways that wecommunicate so that people
(01:06):
engage and take a next step.
In churches it might meangiving, it's serving, it's
attending, it's joining, it'swhatever you're asking them to
do.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Yeah, yeah, I love it .
Well, obviously we servechurches and you're a church guy
.
So why don't you tell folks alittle bit about your background
and kind of how you grew up andthen, I guess, fast forward all
the way into now how you getinto doing the StoryBrand thing?
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Yeah, so I grew up in a.
My dad's a minister of music inSouthern Baptist Church.
So I grew up in that world kindof old school churches.
It was kind of a stereotypicalstory Dad's a minister of music,
mom played piano.
So Sunday morning, sunday night, wednesday night some of our
listeners may be with me I was achampion in Iwana Olympics,
which is a throwback, but IwanaOlympics, ras did all the things
(01:50):
.
Growing up as a kid Kind ofworked my way, you know, went to
church and went to a Christiancollege.
Eventually we started workingin churches.
I was kind of a.
I used to.
My title was like media andcommunications.
It really meant pictures andwords and then eventually,
because I was over production alot of times, it meant pictures,
words, buttons and knobs andoccasionally power switches.
(02:11):
So, like any of those thingswas my responsibility.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
That's what you did.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
It's basically, yeah, people say what do you do?
I was like, if it, if it haspictures, words, buttons or
knobs, I'm somehow responsiblefor it.
Um, so, um, so, anyways, by2016 yeah, by 2016 we kind of
had a transition season andwound up, uh, kind of looking
for new opportunities and thisdonna miller guy was had started
doing story brand workshops andwas promoting this thing they
(02:34):
called a copywritercertification.
Now, I had worked in churches,I'd worked in non-profits as
well, had no idea what acopywriter actually was, because
most listeners know you don'thire those in business.
A copywriter is just a personwho writes all your copy for
emails, websites etc.
I'm sure y'all have them attyphoon.
So, anyways, he's like we'regonna have a copywriter
certification to train people onhow to use story brand in their
business.
And I thought, well, I don'thave anything else going on
(02:55):
right now.
Um, not really getting anytraction and kind of a new
trajectory for life.
So let's go try this thing.
And I and my wife and I saidlet's go do this.
She said you're a pretty goodwriter, let's see where that
goes, and then we'll do thatuntil I get a quote, real job.
And so this was fall of 2016.
And within six weeks Ibasically got a full-time client
load and I started a businessessentially helping people
(03:17):
understand and implement thisframework in their organization.
So that's kind of how Istumbled into where I am now,
and what a day-to-day looks likefor me is working primarily
with companies B2B companies whoare selling to other businesses
, helping them say how do weexplain what we do in a way
that's clear, compelling andconcise so that people will buy
from us?
And then I've worked with somenonprofits.
(03:38):
The question is how do we raisemoney?
I've got a client right now.
They're trying to raise amillion dollars for their annual
fundraising gala and thequestion is who do we talk to?
What do we say to get them togive to our gala so we can hit
our million dollar target?
That's really what it is.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Yeah, yeah, that particular nonprofit.
I'm sure they've done thatevent before and they've raised
money before.
Why'd they bring you on to helpthem?
What do they see?
Or what do they see they needto do different?
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, they brought me in because they said we've got
to really nail our messaging onthis.
How do we communicate in a waythat's really clear and
compelling?
Partly because they're inSouthern California, there's
like three other galas going onat this time and there's a
little bit of overlap in kind ofwho and what these
organizations do, and so in someways, like with churches and
what pastors compete with andchurch staff, churches in
(04:28):
general you're competing forattention, and so in today's
world, it's harder than ever toget somebody to not only pay
attention but to engage enoughto where they will give.
They'll give their time,they'll give their money,
they'll give their influence,whatever you're asking them to
give.
And they brought me in becausethey said hey, how do we reach
more people?
What do we need to say here?
And also, who do we need totalk to?
(04:48):
That's most likely to give towhat our organizations does in
our community, and so we'vebuilt a strategy for them,
created content for them, andthey're off to the race to just
raising a ton of money to domore good in their community.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Yeah, I love it.
Well, let's connect it tochurches.
I mean, obviously you grew up inthe church I'm sure you've done
this work for some churchesalong the way, even if it's
volunteering in your own churchto help.
You know, think through some ofthis stuff.
You know, churches are alwayslike, I guess, at a real
practical level.
Right, they're trying to engagepeople.
(05:20):
They're trying to get morepeople to attend the church.
They're trying to get morepeople to take a next step or
engage in a small group orbecome a volunteer or give
financially.
There's all these things thatchurches are trying to do to
help people grow closer to God.
So I don't know, it seems likeit's harder and harder.
How do churches kind of takesome of the concepts you've
(05:43):
learned and start applying themto do these things better?
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Yeah, Well, first is, one of the ways that churches
are unique in how theycommunicate is that they think
guilt is a default way to engagepeople.
You know, like if you reallylove Jesus if you really love
Jesus, then you'll volunteer forthe two-year-old's nursery duty
every Sunday for the next threeyears.
If you don't, we use guiltquite a bit, which doesn't work.
(06:09):
And then the other side is.
What's so funny to me, havingbeen out of the church world for
several years now, is we alsodefault to things that don't
actually move the needle.
We will spend 17 hoursdesigning the perfect graphic
for our Saturday men's breakfastand won't spend 10 minutes
deciding why should anybody wantto come?
What value will this add totheir life?
What's going to make them wantto trade a Saturday morning to
(06:32):
show up to our event?
I think one of the biggestreasons churches struggle these
days it's not because of shortattention spans.
I'm a big believer that shortattention spans don't actually
exist.
We just have more options.
You can't tell me shortattention spans don't actually
exist.
We just have more options.
Like you can't tell me shortattention spans exist in the
same world where binge watchingexists.
Right, right, like a new showdrops on one of the streaming
platforms and if I drop allepisodes at once, people will
(06:53):
talk about oh, I finished it intwo days, right, yeah, that's
not an attention span problem.
If people have short attentionspans and stuff that just means
your stuff's boring, like so setthat aside.
Yeah, I think the biggest thingfor churches.
You've got to pause and ask thequestion if I put myself in the
seat, in kind of the eyes andthe hearts and the minds of the
people that I want to engagewith what I'm doing?
(07:14):
Essentially, what problem doesthis solve for them?
Or what problem exists in theworld that they can, by them,
participating, they can solve,because the reality is, when a
problem is presented, we payattention.
I always say people payattention when there's tension.
I was with a company last weekthat's doing about $3 million in
sales, about to launch a newproduct in the fall and they
(07:34):
wanted to lead with features andbenefits, and I said we
literally have to connect thisto what is the problem that your
audience is facing that yourproduct that you're going to
launch is going to solve forthem, because if it's not
connected to a problem, peoplejust won't pay attention.
Right, right.
There's a reason why in movies,for example, in the first,
(07:55):
usually in the first 10 or 15minutes something goes wrong.
Something big goes wrong, right?
Top Gun Maverick the biggestmovie of 2022 is 1.6 billion, I
think, at at the box officeWithin the first 15 minutes of
that two-hour movie, we knowwhat Tom Cruise is after because
he's the main key, he's thehero of that story, he's the
main character.
But we also know the problem atstake, and I think too often
with churches, when we'rethinking about our events or
(08:17):
thinking about ministries wewant people to involve with or
to give we don't think aboutwhat problem does this solve for
the person whom we were askingto participate, or what problem
are we presenting?
Exists that, by participating,they can help solve?
Years ago I worked for a churchthat we had to raise $100,000
for a roof, which is like themost uncool thing you can raise
(08:39):
money for in churches but we hadto do it.
The roof had been put on 32years prior but it was a 20-year
roof, so we were 12 yearsoverdue.
We found 256 patches on the topwhen we walked around.
I only knew that because theyhad numbered them and 256 was
the highest number we could find.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Well, yeah, that's, somebody numbered them though.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Yeah, it's crazy, right, like somebody was so
meticulous in number of thepatches but nobody thought, hey,
what if we just bought a newroof?
But it was so bad every time itrained, it was flooding, it was
starting to be mold and mildew,damaging equipment, et cetera.
And so we said we've got to doa campaign for like six or eight
weeks to try to raise anadditional a hundred thousand.
But we were going into thesummer, which we all know is a
(09:20):
terrible time to ask for money,and so we're trying to figure
out how do we communicate this.
I said, well, what if we makeit about something?
And what we decided was thatbuilding the third, the top
floor of that building was ourstudent ministry area, and every
time it rained, that area wouldbe out for weeks because of the
mold, mildew, damage, whatever.
And so for like six months, ourstudents had been meeting in
our fellowship hall, which is,again, not a great place for
(09:41):
students, and so the campaignbecame around we need to have.
The problem was the roof, forsure, but the real problem was
we no longer had a space thatwas built for and tailored for
our student ministry, our highschool students, or sixth to
twelfth grade.
And we went a step further andsaid, based on the high schools
in our area in Metro Atlanta, Isaid, and I looked it up and I
(10:03):
said it one Sunday, the firstSunday of the campaign high
schools in our area in MetroAtlanta.
I said, and I looked it up andI said it one Sunday, the first
Sunday of the campaign.
I said 15 minutes in anydirection of where I'm standing
right now, we estimate there'sbetween 25 and 30,000 middle and
high school students and wedon't have space for them
because our roof there's adamage, it's a problem.
And so what it became was how dowe hook it to a problem to be
(10:23):
solved?
Because people either want toget involved and solve a problem
or they want their problem tobe solved.
Somebody on staff came to meduring this campaign and said
hey, here's a sample of theshingle we're going to use and
here's the spec sheet.
I think it'd be great if wetalked about this on Sunday and
I said thanks so much and I putit on my desk and then I never
saw it again.
Right, yeah, b boring, you'renot a person in that room who
(10:45):
cares what shingle you're using,not a one.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Maybe the guy who's?
Speaker 1 (10:47):
a roofer cares.
I'll talk to him on Sundayafternoon.
I'll email him the spec sheetif he wants to see it.
All everybody else wants to dois I said, man, we really want
to invest in our next generation.
So it became not about.
The problem was not the roof.
The problem was we don't have aplace for our student ministry
and without a place for ourstudent ministry we can.
We can invest in the nextgeneration of middle and high
school kids who are comingthrough our community.
So the biggest thing isconnecting it.
What is the problem that existsor that somebody wants solved
(11:11):
that makes them want to come tothis?
You start answering that Again.
You start asking that question.
It starts helping you be a muchbetter communicator for all the
activities and things you gotgoing on in your church.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Right, right, have you done any work with churches?
Maybe more recently Again, Iknow I know it's not.
You know your business isn'tchurch necessarily, but you know
just doing what you do andbeing around churches, like or
maybe just thought experimentwhile we're here, you know if a
church is, you know looking to.
You know get more people to,you know improving how they're
(11:50):
communicating it and you knowwhat the problems are there and
the benefits of the people thatare.
You know when they go, like howdo you get in the weeds with
people and help them craftsomething that's, you know,
special?
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yeah.
So if I'm following my typical,the typical kind of path I
would say for small groups.
So the first thing is what isit people want?
I think people really want evenin our world, where they're,
we're hyper-connected all thetime, I think people still want
a small group community setting.
Like they want 10, 12, 15people they feel really close to
, they feel really connectedwith.
Yeah, so I would first identifywhat is it that we really feel
(12:24):
like people are after.
Nobody woke up today and said,man, I want to join a small
group, that's what I want.
Like you know.
Like nobody woke up no offense,frank but I woke up and saying,
man, you know what we need todo.
I want to sign up for a newgiving platform.
That's all I want to do.
Nobody said that, right, so wewant to go a level deeper and
say, well, what is it they want?
I think they're going to wantcommunity, but what's keeping
them from getting in right now?
(12:45):
Maybe they haven't found agroup yet.
They don't know what smallgroups are like.
I'm trying to figure out in achurch setting, in this setting,
what keeps people from gettinga sense of community.
Maybe it is they just don'tknow where to go.
They don't have a place wherethey can land, they really feel
connected to people.
One of the things we often lookat when we talk about problems
(13:05):
and you see this in movies andstories, and I do this with
companies and organizations allthe time it's not just about
surface level issues, right.
We don't just say, well, theydon't have a place to really,
they don't really have a senseof community in their lives.
So what does that make themfeel?
Maybe disconnected, isolated,those kinds of things.
Now I want to start to get alittle, a little deeper and to
say, okay, now what's under thesurface?
(13:26):
And I'm going to look for somekind of a statement that says,
hey, we think you shouldn't dolife alone, which is what a lot
of churches will say.
Life is meant to be donetogether, right?
So I'm going to start figuringthat stuff out and say, okay,
now what?
Now I'm going to start lookingat what does it mean for us to
figure out those statements andthen show them what small groups
are like.
(13:47):
I think a lot of times inchurches we make the mistake of
saying, well, come, join smallgroups.
What does that mean?
What is your small group like?
If I've been in churches, Iknow what a pastor's small group
was like.
But explain it, just say hey.
Here's how I would say.
I'd keep it super simple.
Here's how it works.
We have options on our websiteat firstchurchorg slash small
groups, where you can see allthe options and where they're
(14:08):
located to find the time andlocation that works best for you
.
You know, step.
That's step one.
Step two I want you to find, Iwant you to contact.
You can contact the groupleader and to make an
introduction so they can beready to welcome you on your
first time coming.
Step three get connected incommunity.
Like I'm going to, I want togive people a real clear one,
two, three.
We assume so much people knowwhat's going on and how to
(14:30):
engage, because churches arejust like everybody else in that
they forget the audiencethey're speaking to does not
work for them.
Right?
You know even your mostfaithful people, attenders.
You know your deacons, yourelders, whatever.
They're not in your building 40hours a week.
They're not in your Slack orMicrosoft Teams.
If you're on Teams, let's prayfor you right now, but like
(14:52):
they're not in your emailthreads, they're not in your
meetings, they don't know.
So just say hey, step one go tothe website and find a time.
Step two pick one that worksfor you.
And step three be ready toconnect it in community.
So that's the story I wouldstart to tell.
Then I say so.
The next step is you can seethe qr code.
If I'm I'm assuming I'm on asunday morning.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Yeah, sunday morning.
Sunday morning announcementright On stage.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Hey, and I might even say like, if I'm going to do
the pitch using that on a Sundaymorning, I'm going to walk up
and say, hey, let's face it, toomany people feel like they're
living life alone.
They may have family here, theymight even have friends.
They just don't feel like thatdeep sense of connection that
most of us long for, and wefound life is better when it's
in a sense of community, that is, you're connected with people
(15:31):
at a deeper level, you'reengaged in there, walking with
you through all of the ups anddowns of life.
Right, they're the people youcall when your kid is sick and
you've got to take them to theER, but you need somebody to
watch your other kids.
They're those kinds of people.
They're the people whocelebrate your promotions and
and grieve when you have a loss.
Yeah, that's so what we wantyou to do.
We have our next season ofsmall groups is starting in,
let's say, august 8th.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
I'm just making that up, I don't know what date all
the small groups are Coming?
Speaker 1 (15:54):
soon.
Yeah, yeah, coming soon, yeah,it's coming soon.
Here's what we'd love for youto do.
We'd love for you to getinvolved.
So go to firstchurchorg slashsmall groups's what you can
expect.
When you attend, you're goingto be welcomed by your host and
(16:14):
during that time you're going totalk through some Bible, some
questions and also have somegreat conversation around to
just start getting to knoweverybody as well.
Step three find the communitythat we think everybody deserves
to be involved with.
So the next, or go tofirstchurchorg slash small
groups so that you can find agroup where you can get
connected and get that sense ofconnection that everybody wants.
So it's that kind of thing.
(16:36):
As opposed to what wouldnormally happen, like, hey,
thanks for being here today.
Small groups are coming, somake sure you check out that on
August the 4th, that'll be great.
Sweet Lord Jesus, we're glad wehave small groups.
That's not compelling, they'reawesome.
Yeah, we're glad we have smallgroups.
That's not compelling, they'reawesome.
(16:57):
Yeah, we love them, don't missit.
It's like, don't miss what?
What are we talking about?
But that's the kind of stuffthat happens In today's world.
One of the things I found withbusinesses is that most
companies waste a tremendousamount of money in their
marketing and sales.
Churches don't waste a lot ofmoney because they don't usually
have a lot of money.
What they waste is time andattention.
Businesses and organizationswould love to have 60 to 70
(17:21):
minutes of time every singleweek directly in front of their
audience, because so manychurches squander it and don't
pause and say, other than thesermon prep, which will take 8
to 10 hours or 30 minutes, wenever think to say we're putting
all this evidence, all theseother things, we're designing
all these graphics and planningall this stuff.
(17:41):
How do we get people there?
Well, it's about the words weuse.
Are we telling them things thatare engaging them, that are
speaking to the problems they'rehaving or the issues that may
exist in our community they wantpeople to get involved with and
then giving them a clear path,to say here's how you get
started.
Don't tell me to go toinformation station, I don't
know what that means.
Tell me to go through thedouble doors on my left, your
right, and you'll see a desk outthere.
(18:01):
Go there after the service.
Yeah, yeah.
You know one of the things I doquite a bit with an arc of
businesses.
In story we talk about thisidea of a slippery eight pound
bowling ball.
In storybook we talk about thisidea of a slippery eight-pound
bowling ball.
And that is imagine.
Every time you say somethingconfusing to somebody, you're
taking a bowling ball, coveringit in Vaseline and then asking
somebody to hold it.
Now that's an instant awkwardimage.
(18:22):
Right, yeah, now you can do itwith one.
Now, if I hand you two, it's 16pounds and it's slippery, it's
cumbersome.
I hand you three, you just dropthem.
The example I always use sorrychurches, but you're such an
easy target on this one.
If somebody comes to yourchurch on Sunday and you and
your kids go to a new church,frank, and they go, you walk in
and go hey, welcome to FirstChurch, how are you?
(18:43):
And you go hey, my name isFrank, this is my wife, these
are our kids for middleschoolers here and they'll go
well.
Collide meets in the attic forImpact.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
And you're instantly going.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Why does it sound like?
I need a medical release formand a helmet for my kids to go
to whatever you just described,and then they say hey, frank,
don't miss Driven next Sunday.
And then, oh, your wife, don'tmiss Birdsong, which is an
actual church event.
I saw one time in three weeksand you're like what did you do?
What is happening Instead if Igo?
Hey, our middle schoolers meetsWednesday nights upstairs at
(19:15):
six 30 and we have a men's eventnext Saturday at nine.
Right Simple.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Yeah, clear, that's what.
That's what works, right.
Yeah, you can brand it andwhatnot, you know, maybe for the
with the clarity part of it.
Yeah, so now, I love that.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
We have too much at stake to be confusing, cute and
clever.
Yeah, you know, we'll try.
We'll spend hours naming every,every room, every group, every
ministry, every meeting time,and then nobody knows what in
the world is going on.
Yeah, like I worked at a churchone time and I transitioned to
(19:56):
be student pastor for a seasonand our Sunday mornings and when
I forget which was which Sundaymorning was like exchange and
Wednesday night was collide orvice versa, right, and nobody
could explain it to me.
And so I went and sat down inthe past in the office of the
pastor's executive assistant andshe had been there for a decade
.
Her boys she had two boys.
The oldest one was about tograduate from high school, so
(20:16):
she had been a student ministrymom for 10 years, had attended
the church for 25 years.
Her husband's family donatedthe land for the original church
building in the 1800s.
So like they went back.
Yeah, right, that's crazy, it'snuts.
And I said, miss Beth, I saidwhat are canvas and exchange
(20:39):
mean?
And she just stared at me likeyou're staring at me now.
She's like I don't know.
I said that was not what Iexpected and I said, excuse me,
she said it.
She said it was like two youthpastors ago and we just kept it
and they explained it one timeat a Wednesday night parent
meeting.
But I don't remember, I don'tknow what it's for.
And I'm thinking, if shedoesn't know, the most
(21:00):
productive person on our staff,by far the most organized on our
staff, by far one of the mostinvolved people in this church,
nobody knows Right.
So what if we just call itSunday morning, we just call it
Wednesday night, simple, yeah,and eliminate the confusion.
Instead, if I go to a 10thgrader and say, hey, do you want
to come to exchange?
Yeah, is this like a merchantthing, like what is what is
(21:21):
exchange?
It's like a currency thing.
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Why do you think churches don't spend?
And I know we're we'regeneralizing, so it doesn't mean
every church out there, but youknow, why do you think churches
don't spend time like thinkingabout this stuff?
Speaker 1 (21:37):
I think they make the same stuff.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Like the, you know it's not it's not it's not in
the dna.
They don't have the resources.
The people that understand thislike it's just not their thing
yeah, they, they fall into.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Well, there's, I think there's two reasons.
One is the.
It's a problem that impacts somany other businesses and
organizations the church is not.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
It's not just churches, it's literally every
everybody.
Organization is on the planet.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Yeah, they don, they make too many assumptions.
They assume people know whatthey're talking about.
They assume people remember.
They assume people know.
You know it's like I saidearlier.
They assume that their audienceknows everything that their
staff does, but their audienceis not.
They don't work there, you know.
They have their own lives.
Their kids are in school,they're planning for vacations.
Kids are in school, they'replanning for vacations.
(22:21):
They got spring break, they gotfamily stuff, they got stuff
going on.
They just don't know.
So that's one is a big one, isthey?
Just they make the sameassumptions that so many
incorrect assumptions that somany other companies and
organizations make.
So that's one reason I think.
A second reason is churches areunique.
Out of everybody I've worked indozens of industries globally
Churches are unique in thatthey're the only people, the
(22:44):
only industry I've seen that hasa weekly deadline every week,
52 times a year.
Right, the NFL doesn't, the NBAdoesn't, so Sunday's always
coming right.
And there's that, plus the sheervolume of things that a typical
(23:07):
, a normal church communicatesis tremendous.
Most companies might be doing 5million in annual sales or
revenue and they're really onlypromoting like three things,
maybe five.
There's three or five products.
They're not a ton of stuff.
But if a church has got a $3million budget, that probably
means there are 1,500, 2,000people in weekly attendance.
They've got preschoolchildren's, middle school, high
school, college, young adult,married, small groups, senior
(23:28):
adults.
They've got a whole range ofstuff They've got to achieve.
So I think some of it is theministry is running 100 miles an
hour with your hair on fire andI think it's the pace of that
where we don't stop enough andsay, okay, let's pause here.
Enough and say okay, let'spause here.
What do we need to say that'sreally actually going to connect
this event or this ministry orthis giving opportunity, this
campaign, to the problem peoplehave?
(23:48):
How do we pause longer to askthat We'll spend a ton of time
on graphics, which are great.
We love the graphics of ourvisual friends, but we got to
nail the verbal side.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
If you were to do a workshop with a bunch of
churches, do you start there?
What's the problem Everybody'sgot to think about?
because, like you just said,like in all, of the things you
just mentioned there could be 50problems, so it's almost like
okay, write them all down, putthem in order.
What's the most importantproblem that your church is
trying to solve for yourcommunity?
Let's start with that, or yeah,like you know, because there's
(24:21):
a lot going on, but just startthere and simplify it down in
order to take like a step inthis direction.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Yeah, I would.
I mean, with churches I usuallyI I oftentimes say it's really
effective if you take a bottomup approach.
But what I mean by that is lookat what you have to promote
this Sunday, like the next thingon your list, like what are
your?
What events is it?
What campaigns is it?
Is it back to school stuff?
Well, I think we're kind ofpast vbsc, we're past vbs season
(24:48):
, past youth camp season at thispoint, yeah, like what's coming
up and I would say what?
What problem does this solve?
And we'll talk about this in myset, my breakout at the mcl.
It's a modern church laterevent, but in october.
But the reality is like we, wehave to say what problem does
this solve?
Right, you know, I look atTidely as an example.
Tidely does solve a lot ofproblems for a lot of people,
(25:10):
but at the end of the day, thecore problem that Tidely solves
on the giving side is churchesdon't have an easy, simple way
for people to give.
That's it.
We could talk about 49 otherthings, but the reality is
that's the problem.
If I'm thinking about what'scoming up like fall, obviously
(25:31):
it's a big back to school.
One of the things a lot ofchurches may do is fill up
backpacks for kids who areunder-resourced, families who
just don't have kind of schoolsupplies.
I would stand up on a stage andsay, hey, we're getting ready to
go back to school.
Here's something we all knowthat some of the kids who are in
the same class as your son ordaughter, their parents, just
are in a place.
(25:52):
They can't afford schoolsupplies, and we think every,
every child in our communityneeds everything they need in
the classroom to be able tothrive.
So that's why, for just $20 or$25, if you give today, for just
20, 25 bucks, you can get allthe school supplies for one kid,
right.
So I made it really simple Goto first churchorg slash back to
school to figure out how to dothat.
(26:12):
Yeah, and now all of a sudden,it's like I'm connecting that
now instead of saying, hey, uh,we have schools in our community
and, and, man, there's somebackpacks that need to be filled
and it'd be great if we couldfill those and I'm in the room,
but I'm like I'm not engaged,right.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Yeah, totally yeah.
I mean, the giving thing is aninteresting, I guess, circ for
how to do it better using kindof story brand, sort of
guidelines or anything like that.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Mm.
Hmm, yeah, again, I go back toin the moment, like, if I'm
thinking of Sunday morning, I'mthinking about what's a problem
we can talk about.
So when I work one one exampleI love to I love is I love when
people say they don't want togive to the church because it
just goes to the power bill.
Well, let's talk about that.
What happens when we pay theutility?
(27:11):
What happens when we meetbudget?
That's a boring thing to talkabout.
So now, what I'm going to talkabout here is let's talk about
this problem, and it's kind ofan objection really, why people
don't want to give.
Well, the problem is people saywe're just giving to the budget
.
But let's look at the future.
In storytelling and in moviesand the storyboard and stuff, we
always want to look at visionsof success.
(27:32):
So many great products are soldbecause we see examples of life
on the other side.
You see this a lot with healthand fitness, success stories,
case studies, et cetera.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I'm saying, hey, what doesit look like when we meet budget
?
Well, one of the things we payis the power bill.
Well, what happens on the powerbill?
Well, on thursday mornings wehave people who come and fill
backpacks with food so that onfriday we can take them to the
(27:53):
elementary school across thestreet and make sure that kids
who need it can take a backpackfull of food home because they
otherwise they may not eat ameal until they get back to
school on monday.
You know, on tuesday nights wehave, um, uh, we, we host,
celebrate recovery groups forpeople who are coming out of it,
some kind of addiction journey.
Or we hear we hold grief careon, you know, monday nights for
(28:15):
people who are going throughstages of grief.
You know, you know just all thejust tell people what's going
on, right, right, I saw a churchone time years ago that I
attended when I was in a summerjob.
They were a large church,thousands of people.
But it was amazing to me howthe senior pastor took time and
just said, hey, let me tell youwhat happened around here this
week, and he just startedlistening to all the stuff that
had happened in the building.
(28:35):
I mean, people were celebratingor cheering and applauding.
It was incredible stuff.
But he even said, like this isa normal week for us, but most
people don't know what happenshere.
So that's one way to give amoment.
I'm thinking how do I just leaninto just explaining to people
what happens because you give,and because you give we're able
to go do.
So when you give more, we cango do more.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Yeah, yeah, connecting it to impact.
I mean a lot of churches don'tdo that super well, not because
they don't want to and notbecause they're not making an
impact, it's just learning howto connect the giving to what's
really going on.
I mean I love just the pastorgetting up and saying, here's
all the things that happenedthis week in the building, like
it's a great way to do it, causea lot of things that every
church doesn't matter how big orsmall the church is, it can be
(29:14):
a the a hundred member churchyou know, in the middle of
nowhere and there's still greatthings happening there and
people's giving helps thathappen.
So yeah, absolutely yeah,that's cool, man.
Well, we've been here for awhile.
We can keep chatting all daylong, cause I could just keep
asking questions, cause I'mcurious where should folks go to
learn more about you know youand how you help on the story
(29:35):
brand side?
Or even if a church just wantedto like dive into some of this,
yeah, think about telling theirstory better, like what?
Where could they go educatethemselves?
Speaker 1 (29:44):
yeah, uh, go to my website, westgatecom slash mcl
and I have some things there forchurches, uh, to to learn from
and use.
And I'm on, I'm on the I thinkI'm old enough now where I'm
supposed to say the facebook,the facebook yes, I'm on the
facebook, I'm on the instagram,I'm on the twitter or the x.
I don't know what's the x.
Yeah, I'm not on the tick I'mnot on the Instagram, I'm on the
Twitter or the X, I don't knowwhat we're supposed to call it.
(30:04):
The X yeah, I'm not on theTikTok, but I am on the LinkedIn
.
But yeah, I'm at Wes Gay at allthose.
So just look me up oneverywhere with TikTok, because
I don't have time for that.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Yeah, I know that's another one to figure out.
Well, that's cool man on theshow.
Thanks for sharing some of yourknowledge.
Hopefully churches will youknow, just get interested in
like how to tell the storybetter.
Obviously, what churches do youknow?
changes the world, so beingbetter at telling our story,
being better at highlighting theimpact they make, like all of
those things are good, Right.
So going through some kind ofprogram talking to someone like
(30:36):
you, if it can help them, helpthem do it better, like they
should all do it.
So, uh, love all your stuff.
Thanks for coming on.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
I look forward to being withyou.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah, Conference coming up, MCL in October.
Um guys, thanks for listening.
Uh Wes, thanks for coming on.
We'll catch you guys next weekon another episode of modern
church leader.
See ya.
Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Modern Church
Leader.
I'm here with my new bud, wes,all the way from Atlanta outside
of Atlanta.
And Wes your title saysStoryBrand Guide, so I feel like
we need to start with educatingour universe of pastors and
church leaders as to whatStoryBrand is.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Yeah.
So you know, most companies,organizations, nonprofits, et
cetera, really struggle to knowhow to talk about what they do,
what they sell, what theypromote, et cetera.
So StoryBrand is a frameworkbased off the book Building a
StoryBrand by Donna Miller,which is a name some of our
audience may remember from 20years ago blue like jazz.
But we don't want to go down,don't want to talk.
That's not what we're talkingabout here.
It's a framework that helpsbusinesses and organizations
(00:46):
really clarify their messaging.
You take seven core elements ofhow to tell a story and use
that as a structure for whateveryou're going to communicate.
So in my world, I often, mostoften, work with businesses.
So it becomes how do we talkabout our business?
How do we talk about ourproducts?
How do we talk about ourservices?
How do we say it on the websiteand emails and all the
different ways that wecommunicate so that people
(01:06):
engage and take a next step.
In churches it might meangiving, it's serving, it's
attending, it's joining, it'swhatever you're asking them to
do.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Yeah, yeah, I love it .
Well, obviously we servechurches and you're a church guy
.
So why don't you tell folks alittle bit about your background
and kind of how you grew up andthen, I guess, fast forward all
the way into now how you getinto doing the StoryBrand thing?
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Yeah, so I grew up in a.
My dad's a minister of music inSouthern Baptist Church.
So I grew up in that world kindof old school churches.
It was kind of a stereotypicalstory Dad's a minister of music,
mom played piano.
So Sunday morning, sunday night, wednesday night some of our
listeners may be with me I was achampion in Iwana Olympics,
which is a throwback, but IwanaOlympics, ras did all the things
(01:50):
.
Growing up as a kid Kind ofworked my way, you know, went to
church and went to a Christiancollege.
Eventually we started workingin churches.
I was kind of a.
I used to.
My title was like media andcommunications.
It really meant pictures andwords and then eventually,
because I was over production alot of times, it meant pictures,
words, buttons and knobs andoccasionally power switches.
(02:11):
So, like any of those thingswas my responsibility.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
That's what you did.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
It's basically, yeah, people say what do you do?
I was like, if it, if it haspictures, words, buttons or
knobs, I'm somehow responsiblefor it.
Um, so, um, so, anyways, by2016 yeah, by 2016 we kind of
had a transition season andwound up, uh, kind of looking
for new opportunities and thisdonna miller guy was had started
doing story brand workshops andwas promoting this thing they
(02:34):
called a copywritercertification.
Now, I had worked in churches,I'd worked in non-profits as
well, had no idea what acopywriter actually was, because
most listeners know you don'thire those in business.
A copywriter is just a personwho writes all your copy for
emails, websites etc.
I'm sure y'all have them attyphoon.
So, anyways, he's like we'regonna have a copywriter
certification to train people onhow to use story brand in their
business.
And I thought, well, I don'thave anything else going on
(02:55):
right now.
Um, not really getting anytraction and kind of a new
trajectory for life.
So let's go try this thing.
And I and my wife and I saidlet's go do this.
She said you're a pretty goodwriter, let's see where that
goes, and then we'll do thatuntil I get a quote, real job.
And so this was fall of 2016.
And within six weeks Ibasically got a full-time client
load and I started a businessessentially helping people
(03:17):
understand and implement thisframework in their organization.
So that's kind of how Istumbled into where I am now,
and what a day-to-day looks likefor me is working primarily
with companies B2B companies whoare selling to other businesses
, helping them say how do weexplain what we do in a way
that's clear, compelling andconcise so that people will buy
from us?
And then I've worked with somenonprofits.
(03:38):
The question is how do we raisemoney?
I've got a client right now.
They're trying to raise amillion dollars for their annual
fundraising gala and thequestion is who do we talk to?
What do we say to get them togive to our gala so we can hit
our million dollar target?
That's really what it is.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Yeah, yeah, that particular nonprofit.
I'm sure they've done thatevent before and they've raised
money before.
Why'd they bring you on to helpthem?
What do they see?
Or what do they see they needto do different?
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, they brought me in because they said we've got
to really nail our messaging onthis.
How do we communicate in a waythat's really clear and
compelling?
Partly because they're inSouthern California, there's
like three other galas going onat this time and there's a
little bit of overlap in kind ofwho and what these
organizations do, and so in someways, like with churches and
what pastors compete with andchurch staff, churches in
(04:28):
general you're competing forattention, and so in today's
world, it's harder than ever toget somebody to not only pay
attention but to engage enoughto where they will give.
They'll give their time,they'll give their money,
they'll give their influence,whatever you're asking them to
give.
And they brought me in becausethey said hey, how do we reach
more people?
What do we need to say here?
And also, who do we need totalk to?
(04:48):
That's most likely to give towhat our organizations does in
our community, and so we'vebuilt a strategy for them,
created content for them, andthey're off to the race to just
raising a ton of money to domore good in their community.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Yeah, I love it.
Well, let's connect it tochurches.
I mean, obviously you grew up inthe church I'm sure you've done
this work for some churchesalong the way, even if it's
volunteering in your own churchto help.
You know, think through some ofthis stuff.
You know, churches are alwayslike, I guess, at a real
practical level.
Right, they're trying to engagepeople.
(05:20):
They're trying to get morepeople to attend the church.
They're trying to get morepeople to take a next step or
engage in a small group orbecome a volunteer or give
financially.
There's all these things thatchurches are trying to do to
help people grow closer to God.
So I don't know, it seems likeit's harder and harder.
How do churches kind of takesome of the concepts you've
(05:43):
learned and start applying themto do these things better?
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Yeah, Well, first is, one of the ways that churches
are unique in how theycommunicate is that they think
guilt is a default way to engagepeople.
You know, like if you reallylove Jesus if you really love
Jesus, then you'll volunteer forthe two-year-old's nursery duty
every Sunday for the next threeyears.
If you don't, we use guiltquite a bit, which doesn't work.
(06:09):
And then the other side is.
What's so funny to me, havingbeen out of the church world for
several years now, is we alsodefault to things that don't
actually move the needle.
We will spend 17 hoursdesigning the perfect graphic
for our Saturday men's breakfastand won't spend 10 minutes
deciding why should anybody wantto come?
What value will this add totheir life?
What's going to make them wantto trade a Saturday morning to
(06:32):
show up to our event?
I think one of the biggestreasons churches struggle these
days it's not because of shortattention spans.
I'm a big believer that shortattention spans don't actually
exist.
We just have more options.
You can't tell me shortattention spans don't actually
exist.
We just have more options.
Like you can't tell me shortattention spans exist in the
same world where binge watchingexists.
Right, right, like a new showdrops on one of the streaming
platforms and if I drop allepisodes at once, people will
(06:53):
talk about oh, I finished it intwo days, right, yeah, that's
not an attention span problem.
If people have short attentionspans and stuff that just means
your stuff's boring, like so setthat aside.
Yeah, I think the biggest thingfor churches.
You've got to pause and ask thequestion if I put myself in the
seat, in kind of the eyes andthe hearts and the minds of the
people that I want to engagewith what I'm doing?
(07:14):
Essentially, what problem doesthis solve for them?
Or what problem exists in theworld that they can, by them,
participating, they can solve,because the reality is, when a
problem is presented, we payattention.
I always say people payattention when there's tension.
I was with a company last weekthat's doing about $3 million in
sales, about to launch a newproduct in the fall and they
(07:34):
wanted to lead with features andbenefits, and I said we
literally have to connect thisto what is the problem that your
audience is facing that yourproduct that you're going to
launch is going to solve forthem, because if it's not
connected to a problem, peoplejust won't pay attention.
Right, right.
There's a reason why in movies,for example, in the first,
(07:55):
usually in the first 10 or 15minutes something goes wrong.
Something big goes wrong, right?
Top Gun Maverick the biggestmovie of 2022 is 1.6 billion, I
think, at at the box officeWithin the first 15 minutes of
that two-hour movie, we knowwhat Tom Cruise is after because
he's the main key, he's thehero of that story, he's the
main character.
But we also know the problem atstake, and I think too often
with churches, when we'rethinking about our events or
(08:17):
thinking about ministries wewant people to involve with or
to give we don't think aboutwhat problem does this solve for
the person whom we were askingto participate, or what problem
are we presenting?
Exists that, by participating,they can help solve?
Years ago I worked for a churchthat we had to raise $100,000
for a roof, which is like themost uncool thing you can raise
(08:39):
money for in churches but we hadto do it.
The roof had been put on 32years prior but it was a 20-year
roof, so we were 12 yearsoverdue.
We found 256 patches on the topwhen we walked around.
I only knew that because theyhad numbered them and 256 was
the highest number we could find.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Well, yeah, that's, somebody numbered them though.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Yeah, it's crazy, right, like somebody was so
meticulous in number of thepatches but nobody thought, hey,
what if we just bought a newroof?
But it was so bad every time itrained, it was flooding, it was
starting to be mold and mildew,damaging equipment, et cetera.
And so we said we've got to doa campaign for like six or eight
weeks to try to raise anadditional a hundred thousand.
But we were going into thesummer, which we all know is a
(09:20):
terrible time to ask for money,and so we're trying to figure
out how do we communicate this.
I said, well, what if we makeit about something?
And what we decided was thatbuilding the third, the top
floor of that building was ourstudent ministry area, and every
time it rained, that area wouldbe out for weeks because of the
mold, mildew, damage, whatever.
And so for like six months, ourstudents had been meeting in
our fellowship hall, which is,again, not a great place for
(09:41):
students, and so the campaignbecame around we need to have.
The problem was the roof, forsure, but the real problem was
we no longer had a space thatwas built for and tailored for
our student ministry, our highschool students, or sixth to
twelfth grade.
And we went a step further andsaid, based on the high schools
in our area in Metro Atlanta, Isaid, and I looked it up and I
(10:03):
said it one Sunday, the firstSunday of the campaign high
schools in our area in MetroAtlanta.
I said, and I looked it up andI said it one Sunday, the first
Sunday of the campaign.
I said 15 minutes in anydirection of where I'm standing
right now, we estimate there'sbetween 25 and 30,000 middle and
high school students and wedon't have space for them
because our roof there's adamage, it's a problem.
And so what it became was how dowe hook it to a problem to be
(10:23):
solved?
Because people either want toget involved and solve a problem
or they want their problem tobe solved.
Somebody on staff came to meduring this campaign and said
hey, here's a sample of theshingle we're going to use and
here's the spec sheet.
I think it'd be great if wetalked about this on Sunday and
I said thanks so much and I putit on my desk and then I never
saw it again.
Right, yeah, b boring, you'renot a person in that room who
(10:45):
cares what shingle you're using,not a one.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Maybe the guy who's?
Speaker 1 (10:47):
a roofer cares.
I'll talk to him on Sundayafternoon.
I'll email him the spec sheetif he wants to see it.
All everybody else wants to dois I said, man, we really want
to invest in our next generation.
So it became not about.
The problem was not the roof.
The problem was we don't have aplace for our student ministry
and without a place for ourstudent ministry we can.
We can invest in the nextgeneration of middle and high
school kids who are comingthrough our community.
So the biggest thing isconnecting it.
What is the problem that existsor that somebody wants solved
(11:11):
that makes them want to come tothis?
You start answering that Again.
You start asking that question.
It starts helping you be a muchbetter communicator for all the
activities and things you gotgoing on in your church.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Right, right, have you done any work with churches?
Maybe more recently Again, Iknow I know it's not.
You know your business isn'tchurch necessarily, but you know
just doing what you do andbeing around churches, like or
maybe just thought experimentwhile we're here, you know if a
church is, you know looking to.
You know get more people to,you know improving how they're
(11:50):
communicating it and you knowwhat the problems are there and
the benefits of the people thatare.
You know when they go, like howdo you get in the weeds with
people and help them craftsomething that's, you know,
special?
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yeah.
So if I'm following my typical,the typical kind of path I
would say for small groups.
So the first thing is what isit people want?
I think people really want evenin our world, where they're,
we're hyper-connected all thetime, I think people still want
a small group community setting.
Like they want 10, 12, 15people they feel really close to
, they feel really connectedwith.
Yeah, so I would first identifywhat is it that we really feel
(12:24):
like people are after.
Nobody woke up today and said,man, I want to join a small
group, that's what I want.
Like you know.
Like nobody woke up no offense,frank but I woke up and saying,
man, you know what we need todo.
I want to sign up for a newgiving platform.
That's all I want to do.
Nobody said that, right, so wewant to go a level deeper and
say, well, what is it they want?
I think they're going to wantcommunity, but what's keeping
them from getting in right now?
(12:45):
Maybe they haven't found agroup yet.
They don't know what smallgroups are like.
I'm trying to figure out in achurch setting, in this setting,
what keeps people from gettinga sense of community.
Maybe it is they just don'tknow where to go.
They don't have a place wherethey can land, they really feel
connected to people.
One of the things we often lookat when we talk about problems
(13:05):
and you see this in movies andstories, and I do this with
companies and organizations allthe time it's not just about
surface level issues, right.
We don't just say, well, theydon't have a place to really,
they don't really have a senseof community in their lives.
So what does that make themfeel?
Maybe disconnected, isolated,those kinds of things.
Now I want to start to get alittle, a little deeper and to
say, okay, now what's under thesurface?
(13:26):
And I'm going to look for somekind of a statement that says,
hey, we think you shouldn't dolife alone, which is what a lot
of churches will say.
Life is meant to be donetogether, right?
So I'm going to start figuringthat stuff out and say, okay,
now what?
Now I'm going to start lookingat what does it mean for us to
figure out those statements andthen show them what small groups
are like.
(13:47):
I think a lot of times inchurches we make the mistake of
saying, well, come, join smallgroups.
What does that mean?
What is your small group like?
If I've been in churches, Iknow what a pastor's small group
was like.
But explain it, just say hey.
Here's how I would say.
I'd keep it super simple.
Here's how it works.
We have options on our websiteat firstchurchorg slash small
groups, where you can see allthe options and where they're
(14:08):
located to find the time andlocation that works best for you
.
You know, step.
That's step one.
Step two I want you to find, Iwant you to contact.
You can contact the groupleader and to make an
introduction so they can beready to welcome you on your
first time coming.
Step three get connected incommunity.
Like I'm going to, I want togive people a real clear one,
two, three.
We assume so much people knowwhat's going on and how to
(14:30):
engage, because churches arejust like everybody else in that
they forget the audiencethey're speaking to does not
work for them.
Right?
You know even your mostfaithful people, attenders.
You know your deacons, yourelders, whatever.
They're not in your building 40hours a week.
They're not in your Slack orMicrosoft Teams.
If you're on Teams, let's prayfor you right now, but like
(14:52):
they're not in your emailthreads, they're not in your
meetings, they don't know.
So just say hey, step one go tothe website and find a time.
Step two pick one that worksfor you.
And step three be ready toconnect it in community.
So that's the story I wouldstart to tell.
Then I say so.
The next step is you can seethe qr code.
If I'm I'm assuming I'm on asunday morning.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Yeah, sunday morning.
Sunday morning announcementright On stage.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Hey, and I might even say like, if I'm going to do
the pitch using that on a Sundaymorning, I'm going to walk up
and say, hey, let's face it, toomany people feel like they're
living life alone.
They may have family here, theymight even have friends.
They just don't feel like thatdeep sense of connection that
most of us long for, and wefound life is better when it's
in a sense of community, that is, you're connected with people
(15:31):
at a deeper level, you'reengaged in there, walking with
you through all of the ups anddowns of life.
Right, they're the people youcall when your kid is sick and
you've got to take them to theER, but you need somebody to
watch your other kids.
They're those kinds of people.
They're the people whocelebrate your promotions and
and grieve when you have a loss.
Yeah, that's so what we wantyou to do.
We have our next season ofsmall groups is starting in,
let's say, august 8th.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
I'm just making that up, I don't know what date all
the small groups are Coming?
Speaker 1 (15:54):
soon.
Yeah, yeah, coming soon, yeah,it's coming soon.
Here's what we'd love for youto do.
We'd love for you to getinvolved.
So go to firstchurchorg slashsmall groups's what you can
expect.
When you attend, you're goingto be welcomed by your host and
(16:14):
during that time you're going totalk through some Bible, some
questions and also have somegreat conversation around to
just start getting to knoweverybody as well.
Step three find the communitythat we think everybody deserves
to be involved with.
So the next, or go tofirstchurchorg slash small
groups so that you can find agroup where you can get
connected and get that sense ofconnection that everybody wants.
So it's that kind of thing.
(16:36):
As opposed to what wouldnormally happen, like, hey,
thanks for being here today.
Small groups are coming, somake sure you check out that on
August the 4th, that'll be great.
Sweet Lord Jesus, we're glad wehave small groups.
That's not compelling, they'reawesome.
Yeah, we're glad we have smallgroups.
That's not compelling, they'reawesome.
(16:57):
Yeah, we love them, don't missit.
It's like, don't miss what?
What are we talking about?
But that's the kind of stuffthat happens In today's world.
One of the things I found withbusinesses is that most
companies waste a tremendousamount of money in their
marketing and sales.
Churches don't waste a lot ofmoney because they don't usually
have a lot of money.
What they waste is time andattention.
Businesses and organizationswould love to have 60 to 70
(17:21):
minutes of time every singleweek directly in front of their
audience, because so manychurches squander it and don't
pause and say, other than thesermon prep, which will take 8
to 10 hours or 30 minutes, wenever think to say we're putting
all this evidence, all theseother things, we're designing
all these graphics and planningall this stuff.
(17:41):
How do we get people there?
Well, it's about the words weuse.
Are we telling them things thatare engaging them, that are
speaking to the problems they'rehaving or the issues that may
exist in our community they wantpeople to get involved with and
then giving them a clear path,to say here's how you get
started.
Don't tell me to go toinformation station, I don't
know what that means.
Tell me to go through thedouble doors on my left, your
right, and you'll see a desk outthere.
(18:01):
Go there after the service.
Yeah, yeah.
You know one of the things I doquite a bit with an arc of
businesses.
In story we talk about thisidea of a slippery eight pound
bowling ball.
In storybook we talk about thisidea of a slippery eight-pound
bowling ball.
And that is imagine.
Every time you say somethingconfusing to somebody, you're
taking a bowling ball, coveringit in Vaseline and then asking
somebody to hold it.
Now that's an instant awkwardimage.
(18:22):
Right, yeah, now you can do itwith one.
Now, if I hand you two, it's 16pounds and it's slippery, it's
cumbersome.
I hand you three, you just dropthem.
The example I always use sorrychurches, but you're such an
easy target on this one.
If somebody comes to yourchurch on Sunday and you and
your kids go to a new church,frank, and they go, you walk in
and go hey, welcome to FirstChurch, how are you?
(18:43):
And you go hey, my name isFrank, this is my wife, these
are our kids for middleschoolers here and they'll go
well.
Collide meets in the attic forImpact.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
And you're instantly going.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Why does it sound like?
I need a medical release formand a helmet for my kids to go
to whatever you just described,and then they say hey, frank,
don't miss Driven next Sunday.
And then, oh, your wife, don'tmiss Birdsong, which is an
actual church event.
I saw one time in three weeksand you're like what did you do?
What is happening Instead if Igo?
Hey, our middle schoolers meetsWednesday nights upstairs at
(19:15):
six 30 and we have a men's eventnext Saturday at nine.
Right Simple.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Yeah, clear, that's what.
That's what works, right.
Yeah, you can brand it andwhatnot, you know, maybe for the
with the clarity part of it.
Yeah, so now, I love that.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
We have too much at stake to be confusing, cute and
clever.
Yeah, you know, we'll try.
We'll spend hours naming every,every room, every group, every
ministry, every meeting time,and then nobody knows what in
the world is going on.
Yeah, like I worked at a churchone time and I transitioned to
(19:56):
be student pastor for a seasonand our Sunday mornings and when
I forget which was which Sundaymorning was like exchange and
Wednesday night was collide orvice versa, right, and nobody
could explain it to me.
And so I went and sat down inthe past in the office of the
pastor's executive assistant andshe had been there for a decade
.
Her boys she had two boys.
The oldest one was about tograduate from high school, so
(20:16):
she had been a student ministrymom for 10 years, had attended
the church for 25 years.
Her husband's family donatedthe land for the original church
building in the 1800s.
So like they went back.
Yeah, right, that's crazy, it'snuts.
And I said, miss Beth, I saidwhat are canvas and exchange
(20:39):
mean?
And she just stared at me likeyou're staring at me now.
She's like I don't know.
I said that was not what Iexpected and I said, excuse me,
she said it.
She said it was like two youthpastors ago and we just kept it
and they explained it one timeat a Wednesday night parent
meeting.
But I don't remember, I don'tknow what it's for.
And I'm thinking, if shedoesn't know, the most
(21:00):
productive person on our staff,by far the most organized on our
staff, by far one of the mostinvolved people in this church,
nobody knows Right.
So what if we just call itSunday morning, we just call it
Wednesday night, simple, yeah,and eliminate the confusion.
Instead, if I go to a 10thgrader and say, hey, do you want
to come to exchange?
Yeah, is this like a merchantthing, like what is what is
(21:21):
exchange?
It's like a currency thing.
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Why do you think churches don't spend?
And I know we're we'regeneralizing, so it doesn't mean
every church out there, but youknow, why do you think churches
don't spend time like thinkingabout this stuff?
Speaker 1 (21:37):
I think they make the same stuff.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Like the, you know it's not it's not it's not in
the dna.
They don't have the resources.
The people that understand thislike it's just not their thing
yeah, they, they fall into.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Well, there's, I think there's two reasons.
One is the.
It's a problem that impacts somany other businesses and
organizations the church is not.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
It's not just churches, it's literally every
everybody.
Organization is on the planet.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Yeah, they don, they make too many assumptions.
They assume people know whatthey're talking about.
They assume people remember.
They assume people know.
You know it's like I saidearlier.
They assume that their audienceknows everything that their
staff does, but their audienceis not.
They don't work there, you know.
They have their own lives.
Their kids are in school,they're planning for vacations.
Kids are in school, they'replanning for vacations.
(22:21):
They got spring break, they gotfamily stuff, they got stuff
going on.
They just don't know.
So that's one is a big one, isthey?
Just they make the sameassumptions that so many
incorrect assumptions that somany other companies and
organizations make.
So that's one reason I think.
A second reason is churches areunique.
Out of everybody I've worked indozens of industries globally
Churches are unique in thatthey're the only people, the
(22:44):
only industry I've seen that hasa weekly deadline every week,
52 times a year.
Right, the NFL doesn't, the NBAdoesn't, so Sunday's always
coming right.
And there's that, plus the sheervolume of things that a typical
(23:07):
, a normal church communicatesis tremendous.
Most companies might be doing 5million in annual sales or
revenue and they're really onlypromoting like three things,
maybe five.
There's three or five products.
They're not a ton of stuff.
But if a church has got a $3million budget, that probably
means there are 1,500, 2,000people in weekly attendance.
They've got preschoolchildren's, middle school, high
school, college, young adult,married, small groups, senior
(23:28):
adults.
They've got a whole range ofstuff They've got to achieve.
So I think some of it is theministry is running 100 miles an
hour with your hair on fire andI think it's the pace of that
where we don't stop enough andsay, okay, let's pause here.
Enough and say okay, let'spause here.
What do we need to say that'sreally actually going to connect
this event or this ministry orthis giving opportunity, this
campaign, to the problem peoplehave?
(23:48):
How do we pause longer to askthat We'll spend a ton of time
on graphics, which are great.
We love the graphics of ourvisual friends, but we got to
nail the verbal side.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
If you were to do a workshop with a bunch of
churches, do you start there?
What's the problem Everybody'sgot to think about?
because, like you just said,like in all, of the things you
just mentioned there could be 50problems, so it's almost like
okay, write them all down, putthem in order.
What's the most importantproblem that your church is
trying to solve for yourcommunity?
Let's start with that, or yeah,like you know, because there's
(24:21):
a lot going on, but just startthere and simplify it down in
order to take like a step inthis direction.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Yeah, I would.
I mean, with churches I usuallyI I oftentimes say it's really
effective if you take a bottomup approach.
But what I mean by that is lookat what you have to promote
this Sunday, like the next thingon your list, like what are
your?
What events is it?
What campaigns is it?
Is it back to school stuff?
Well, I think we're kind ofpast vbsc, we're past vbs season
(24:48):
, past youth camp season at thispoint, yeah, like what's coming
up and I would say what?
What problem does this solve?
And we'll talk about this in myset, my breakout at the mcl.
It's a modern church laterevent, but in october.
But the reality is like we, wehave to say what problem does
this solve?
Right, you know, I look atTidely as an example.
Tidely does solve a lot ofproblems for a lot of people,
(25:10):
but at the end of the day, thecore problem that Tidely solves
on the giving side is churchesdon't have an easy, simple way
for people to give.
That's it.
We could talk about 49 otherthings, but the reality is
that's the problem.
If I'm thinking about what'scoming up like fall, obviously
(25:31):
it's a big back to school.
One of the things a lot ofchurches may do is fill up
backpacks for kids who areunder-resourced, families who
just don't have kind of schoolsupplies.
I would stand up on a stage andsay, hey, we're getting ready to
go back to school.
Here's something we all knowthat some of the kids who are in
the same class as your son ordaughter, their parents, just
are in a place.
(25:52):
They can't afford schoolsupplies, and we think every,
every child in our communityneeds everything they need in
the classroom to be able tothrive.
So that's why, for just $20 or$25, if you give today, for just
20, 25 bucks, you can get allthe school supplies for one kid,
right.
So I made it really simple Goto first churchorg slash back to
school to figure out how to dothat.
(26:12):
Yeah, and now all of a sudden,it's like I'm connecting that
now instead of saying, hey, uh,we have schools in our community
and, and, man, there's somebackpacks that need to be filled
and it'd be great if we couldfill those and I'm in the room,
but I'm like I'm not engaged,right.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Yeah, totally yeah.
I mean, the giving thing is aninteresting, I guess, circ for
how to do it better using kindof story brand, sort of
guidelines or anything like that.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Mm.
Hmm, yeah, again, I go back toin the moment, like, if I'm
thinking of Sunday morning, I'mthinking about what's a problem
we can talk about.
So when I work one one exampleI love to I love is I love when
people say they don't want togive to the church because it
just goes to the power bill.
Well, let's talk about that.
What happens when we pay theutility?
(27:11):
What happens when we meetbudget?
That's a boring thing to talkabout.
So now, what I'm going to talkabout here is let's talk about
this problem, and it's kind ofan objection really, why people
don't want to give.
Well, the problem is people saywe're just giving to the budget
.
But let's look at the future.
In storytelling and in moviesand the storyboard and stuff, we
always want to look at visionsof success.
(27:32):
So many great products are soldbecause we see examples of life
on the other side.
You see this a lot with healthand fitness, success stories,
case studies, et cetera.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I'm saying, hey, what doesit look like when we meet budget
?
Well, one of the things we payis the power bill.
Well, what happens on the powerbill?
Well, on thursday mornings wehave people who come and fill
backpacks with food so that onfriday we can take them to the
(27:53):
elementary school across thestreet and make sure that kids
who need it can take a backpackfull of food home because they
otherwise they may not eat ameal until they get back to
school on monday.
You know, on tuesday nights wehave, um, uh, we, we host,
celebrate recovery groups forpeople who are coming out of it,
some kind of addiction journey.
Or we hear we hold grief careon, you know, monday nights for
(28:15):
people who are going throughstages of grief.
You know, you know just all thejust tell people what's going
on, right, right, I saw a churchone time years ago that I
attended when I was in a summerjob.
They were a large church,thousands of people.
But it was amazing to me howthe senior pastor took time and
just said, hey, let me tell youwhat happened around here this
week, and he just startedlistening to all the stuff that
had happened in the building.
(28:35):
I mean, people were celebratingor cheering and applauding.
It was incredible stuff.
But he even said, like this isa normal week for us, but most
people don't know what happenshere.
So that's one way to give amoment.
I'm thinking how do I just leaninto just explaining to people
what happens because you give,and because you give we're able
to go do.
So when you give more, we cango do more.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Yeah, yeah, connecting it to impact.
I mean a lot of churches don'tdo that super well, not because
they don't want to and notbecause they're not making an
impact, it's just learning howto connect the giving to what's
really going on.
I mean I love just the pastorgetting up and saying, here's
all the things that happenedthis week in the building, like
it's a great way to do it, causea lot of things that every
church doesn't matter how big orsmall the church is, it can be
(29:14):
a the a hundred member churchyou know, in the middle of
nowhere and there's still greatthings happening there and
people's giving helps thathappen.
So yeah, absolutely yeah,that's cool, man.
Well, we've been here for awhile.
We can keep chatting all daylong, cause I could just keep
asking questions, cause I'mcurious where should folks go to
learn more about you know youand how you help on the story
(29:35):
brand side?
Or even if a church just wantedto like dive into some of this,
yeah, think about telling theirstory better, like what?
Where could they go educatethemselves?
Speaker 1 (29:44):
yeah, uh, go to my website, westgatecom slash mcl
and I have some things there forchurches, uh, to to learn from
and use.
And I'm on, I'm on the I thinkI'm old enough now where I'm
supposed to say the facebook,the facebook yes, I'm on the
facebook, I'm on the instagram,I'm on the twitter or the x.
I don't know what's the x.
Yeah, I'm not on the tick I'mnot on the Instagram, I'm on the
Twitter or the X, I don't knowwhat we're supposed to call it.
(30:04):
The X yeah, I'm not on theTikTok, but I am on the LinkedIn
.
But yeah, I'm at Wes Gay at allthose.
So just look me up oneverywhere with TikTok, because
I don't have time for that.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Yeah, I know that's another one to figure out.
Well, that's cool man on theshow.
Thanks for sharing some of yourknowledge.
Hopefully churches will youknow, just get interested in
like how to tell the storybetter.
Obviously, what churches do youknow?
changes the world, so beingbetter at telling our story,
being better at highlighting theimpact they make, like all of
those things are good, Right.
So going through some kind ofprogram talking to someone like
(30:36):
you, if it can help them, helpthem do it better, like they
should all do it.
So, uh, love all your stuff.
Thanks for coming on.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
I look forward to being withyou.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah, Conference coming up, MCL in October.
Um guys, thanks for listening.
Uh Wes, thanks for coming on.
We'll catch you guys next weekon another episode of modern
church leader.
See ya.
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