October 3, 2024 • 30 mins
Can spaces tell stories? Discover how Mel, a Disney Imagineer and expert in three-dimensional storytelling, has transformed his childhood passions into a career that brings environments to life. From his humble beginnings in Vietnam to contributing significantly to Disneyland's evolution, Mel takes us through his journey of crafting immersive experiences that transcend traditional boundaries. Get an insider's look into Disneyland Resort Garden District and the multifaceted world of Disney Imagineering.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Modern Church
Leader.
Excited to talk to our guesttoday who's coming to our
conference, going to be aspeaker, lead a great workshop,
but you get a little previewtoday.
So, mel, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hey, thanks man, Great to be here Honored.
Yeah, looking forward to theconference.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Where are you coming to us from?
You know?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I get to visit my beautiful bride, my cozy home
here in Orange County kind ofinland from Laguna Beach at
least once a week, literallyflying in from Miami and Orlando
and heading out in less than 24hours to Shanghai.
So I get to tag it in here.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Just running around, yeah, and actually I don't often
get to talk Go ahead.
But yeah, running around, yeah,and actually I don't.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
I don't often get to talk.
Go ahead, go ahead.
Oh, 102 degrees, man youbelieve that.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
So I'm in San Diego.
I don't often get guests fromthe West coast, so I live in San
Diego and it's blazing, it'slike a hundred and something
here.
Wow, it's crazy, I don't knowwhat's going on.
My, like my kids are in middleschool now and, uh, two of them
are trying out for the golf teamand so this week was their
first like golf practice andthey canceled golf practice
(01:15):
Cause it was too hot.
Yeah, I'm like what?
What's going on?
I let, I grew up in Vegas Likewe practiced in full football
pads in like 110.
We didn't cancel practice.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Yeah, we're pretty wimpy here.
We pay a premium for God'sthermostat to be set right at
about 72 to 80.
And so we freak out when the ACbreaks the natural.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
AC.
Trees are melting, grass isburning, everything's like bad,
but that's cool, man.
Well, why don't you tell us youdo some really cool stuff, a
unique set of skills and workexperience compared to maybe a
lot of our guests?
I'd love to hear you worked atDisney.
You do a bunch of things likehelping plan these kind of large
(02:01):
experiences and all kinds ofstuff.
So you help not just likechurches and ministries and
cause-based things, but you doall kinds of work.
But you know, tell us a story.
Go back to the.
You know how you got into like,what kind of stuff do you do
and how did you even get into it?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah, well, at the high level we do what we call
three-dimensional storytelling.
That lifts the spirit.
So I've got a brother that's apartner that is a kind of
technical digital guru.
He's got a team of former Pixarguys doing proprietary software
and applications forinteractive storytelling.
I've got another partner thatdoes strategic storytelling.
(02:39):
So branding, identity strategywork.
My passion focus since I was awee little kid has been what I
call spatial storytelling.
Some Disney fans know thatDisney had a unit called Disney
Imagineering and we basicallyare similar to that for the rest
(03:00):
of the world.
It doesn't happen to have agroup like that in-house.
So at Disney Imagineering wehad over 140 different
disciplines to basically tellstories in three-dimensional
spaces.
So everything from architecture, landscape architecture,
interior design, master planning, graphic design, show set
design.
So we actually have all thosedisciplines within our you know
(03:21):
that 150-person team.
So one of the things that we doout of that is we have a kind
of a special ops group of usthat have a kind of a passion
for kingdom work and over thelast few decades have probably
worked on probably about athousand cause oriented projects
(03:41):
, whether it's church campuses,hospitals, schools, you name it
around the world.
In fact you know an entirevillage for survivors of sex
trafficking.
You know some of the fastestgrowing churches in the country,
from Saddleback to Willow Creek, calvary, fort Lauderdale, you
name it.
So it's been a pretty crazyride to get to work with some
(04:03):
pretty amazing Sherpas and gurusalong the way.
But, like I said, it started asa kid.
I was born in Vietnam.
Earliest memories bombs goingoff in Saigon.
But then I also remember kindof getting evac'd out of there
before the fall of Saigon,making a trip to Disneyland,
looking at the twinkle lightsdown Main Street, usa and I
think the fusion of bombs goingoff and looking at the world
(04:25):
that was in a world thatcouldn't should be kind of made
some weird wiring.
So you know, I started drawingup future cities and theme parks
and places, like I said, that Iwanted to visit when I was
probably 11, 12 years old.
My first Boy Scout merit badgewas architecture.
So just a weird kid.
You know I wish they would havehad some of these theme park
designer video games when I wasa kid because I thought I was
(04:47):
the only weird guy in the world.
I wrote my first letter toDisney Imagineering when I was
like 13,.
I think no way.
Yeah, they sent the rejectionletter that said stay in school,
kid.
They didn't take me up on anyof my free consulting of all the
ways they could fix it.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
You're like, I'm here Word for free.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Yeah, so anyways, I'm here.
Word for free.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Yeah, so anyway, how long did you spend as an?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Imagineer.
You know I was there for about10 years the 90s was known by
the CEO at the time as theDisney decade and most of my
time was spent focused onreimagining and redeveloping the
area around the originalmagical little park that a daddy
built for his daughter'sDisneyland, which really was
just a quarter section of land160 acres.
(05:29):
Ultimately, we ended upplanning about two square miles
surrounding it, what's now knownas the Disneyland Resort Garden
District, and so it was reallygreat because Disney was paying
for my graduate degree at thetime.
I was learning while I wasdoing, and I would say that that
was kind of my real grad schoolas opposed to the actual
(05:50):
master's degree that I got.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
What kind of like give us a little bit of the
behind the scenes, behind thecurtain.
Like when you're an Imagineeryou're there for 10 years, like
would you learn working in thatkind of environment?
I mean, they're like one of thebest right, like Disney's one
of the best at this kind ofthing.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Well, you kind of really learned that man, people
are willing to pay a premium andyou have to.
It begs the question what arethey willing to pay that premium
for?
If they're willing to save up?
Deal with planes, trains,automobiles.
You know all this hassle oftravel to just just and then to
get to your front door and shellout.
You know at least 100 plus eachjust to step across the
(06:30):
turnstile threshold to enterinto this space.
What is that?
You know and you know.
Ultimately, what I learned wasreally the secret you know is
story.
You know, we've just come tobelieve that story is
fundamental to the humancondition.
Is story?
We've just come to believe thatstory is fundamental to the
human condition.
It's one of the things that Goduses to kind of differentiate
us from other creatures.
(06:51):
And without a sense of who weare, who I am, over space and
time, you kind of areschizophrenic and you just don't
have that significance.
And sometimes we tell ourselvesbad stories about ourselves,
right, and that's out of traumaand damage.
But at the end of the day,story really has the power to
form who we are and transformwho we can become, and again,
(07:11):
the power of spatialstorytelling, of understanding
the character setting and plot.
It's a fundamentally differentway of approaching placemaking,
whether it's the scale of a home, a hospitality experience, a
campus, a city, you know even aregion.
It's just a different approachthan normal modern, especially
(07:32):
modern minimalist design, whichis based on this kind of
religious mantra almost calledform follows function, that idea
of minimalist utilitarianism.
You know my graduate thesis waswas that?
hey, you know I think we forgotsomething a long way.
Throughout history, form hasfollowed fiction.
Spaces did tell stories, andyou know that's kind of I think
(07:54):
a skill that we learned atDisney was that man, if you have
the story right, that caninform thousands of design
decisions across multipledisciplines, and one plus one
equals three over and over again, and it really creates
compelling destinations that,again, are just different than
the average strip mall in theUnited States of Generica that
we all drive by and go to.
(08:15):
You don't have to hit thatWalmart.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was just driving by the Home
Depot.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
So I'm very familiar with that.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Yep the mall of Generica yeah, right, um, so so
you were there.
I mean, I don't know, I have somany like questions about like
the behind the scenes.
Like you walk into disney andwe did florida, so we did like
last summer maybe it was thesummer before we kind of hit all
(08:42):
the parks there.
So, like I get you.
When it's like you I mean you'retraveling, you're on planes and
you're in ubers and you got allyour luggage and you got the
hotel and it's like a wholething and it's not cheap to go,
do that, even if you do it ascost effective as possible.
Right, like making that wholething happen is not a cheap
adventure, but you're right,it's packed.
(09:04):
Like you go there and there'slike thousands and thousands of
people running around doingthese things.
Um, how does like is the storywhen you go into a disney theme
park like you have thesedifferent lands.
Is that kind of like like youthink through that stuff from
the beginning?
They just go like, okay, we'regonna have this big old theme
(09:25):
park for building a new one, andthey just think through the
different like areas of the parkand like what's gonna, you know
, like be interesting to peoplethan that right it like, said I.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
I like to point out to especially millennials, that
there was actually, in fact, ahistorical dude named walt
disney it's not just a corporateand in a lot of ways, the
original what we call castleparks, the disneyland and the
magic kingdom, I mean reallywere this authentic kind of
synopsis of uh walt disney'skind of.
You know this mid-century uhguy born at the turn of the
(10:04):
century, you know that had both.
This kind of.
You know this mid-century guyborn at the turn of the century,
you know that had both thiskind of roots in this optimism
you know of, you know lookingthrough the rose-colored lens of
nostalgia, editing out all thestuff he didn't know about.
You know injustice and you knowwhatever.
But just seeing those roots ofwhat a small town community that
supported each other could look, taste and feel like, you're
(10:25):
basically ushered into hischildhood Again through through
that editing of a Hollywood artdirector and an artist, right.
So it's much like animpressionist painter.
You're not just asking him topaint a, you know do an
Instagram photo of what he sawin reality, you're asking for
his interpretation.
And that's what Main Street youknow say is this quintessential
(10:45):
memory, right?
And then you enter into thiscentral hub area where you're
totally empowered to then stepinto almost the major kind of
narrative, televisual, filmicgenres you know, at least of the
day.
So I mean, you know, in the1950s, you know the Westerns
were kind of a big deal.
You know the idea of a new Westwas really what the whole
(11:06):
suburban push was about.
You know, when you're steppingnorth into the Disney Channel
through that castle, you'restepping east into the future,
which you know, the whole ideaof the space race and kind of
that mid-century optimism andfaith in corporate technology.
You know it was very much ofthe time.
And again that's when weapproach spatial storytelling.
(11:29):
A lot of times it does have tobe soil specific.
Again, whether we're workingwith a ministry, a corporate
entity, an IP, it's got to bethat right mix of kind of
character setting, plot, soilstory, silver to actually do
something that's got some legs.
You know it's really not justabout kind of rando, hey, let's
do.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
You know cartoon town you know right, right, you know
just paint everything brightcolors.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
And you know whatever ?
I literally just got done witha lunch meeting of a
entertainment attraction ownerthat just was dying, the the
manager just wanted to paintthese bright, wacky, gaudy
colors just to try to geteyeballs like, like you know not
a lot of thought into it.
I'm like, please don't justjust let us have at least one
conversation with yourstakeholders.
(12:17):
Well, I mean, they haven't beenhired yet, but I'm like okay,
let's just have one conversationand have some significance, to
give you some reasons for colors, rather than just someone
saying I need eyeballs, you know, to be grabbed you know from
the roadside, right yeah?
Speaker 1 (12:34):
So you went from that and then you created your own
thing, sounds like, with yourbrother and some partners and
you kind of said I want to gotake this skill, this talent,
out into the outside of Disney,what, what?
Give us an example of some ofthe types of projects you worked
on or you have worked on.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Yeah, well, I want to give credit not only to my
brother Peter, but a friendnamed Mike Foster who has been
around, good friend with BobGoff and guys like Jed Wilhite.
You know he really had thispassion for helping the church
tell a better story frankly.
You know, coming out of the 80s90s, you know the church and
televangelists and you know justdidn't have a great reputation.
There was a big disconnectbetween what especially
(13:15):
Americans thought of the churchor the megachurch versus you
know what they thought aboutJesus.
Even people were down with, youknow, the grace and truth and
compassion of Jesus, but theyjust saw a lot of hypocrisy and,
you know, whatever with thechurch.
And so the part of that originalholy discontent was man, we've
learned some skills along theway from the tech industry, from
(13:39):
the film industry, from Disney,that we thought could be
applied to churches in thekingdom.
And again, really initially itwas a pretty hard push to just
help lift the church out of thispit.
We thought of just kind of, uh,just generic, you know, kind of
cut and paste, um, kind oflet's just try not to.
(13:59):
I mean, back then the radicalthing to do at willow creek was
let's not try to offend anybodyby, you know, putting up any
crosses and making all of our.
Let's try to make our buildingsjust look neutral and, if
anything, let's make them looklike a community college or a
you know the campus term orwhatever.
So let's just not offend, almostlike hide the fact that we're
Christians or that it's areligious structure, and paint
(14:21):
everything black.
And you know that was kind ofthe punk rock approach back then
.
And we said, well, you know,there's a blank sheet of paper,
that's fine, but there's alsothe opportunity to paint on that
canvas and again tell a betterstory with a little more
intentionality.
And so again, you know some ofI'm still thinking about some of
the first churches that weencountered.
(14:42):
You know, one was happened tobe in a, in a town that is, you
know, not too far from here,called Corona, corona,
california, and before there wasa global pandemic named after
him.
Everyone thought that the townname was Spanish for beer or, or
(15:02):
you know the actual dictionarydefinition was a concentric
circle of light surrounding aluminous body.
So we ended up, you know, kindof playing up that, that idea of
a circle of light, digging intothe roots of kind of sacred
space, especially in kind ofpre-modern eras where, you know,
quite often the third place,the gathering place of cities
(15:23):
and communities, happen to be atthe foot of the cross, at the
foot of a cross shaped basilicaor a cathedral basilica or a
cathedral, and that that greatoutdoor room was that piazza,
that that, uh, you know, was thebest restaurants, best cafes,
you know, you're, you're.
It was more expensive to livecloser to that central gathering
place and for the way that thatwas also where the town, well,
(15:44):
was the source of living water.
So in that particular case, wecame up with this idea of sort
of this post-modern piazza, uh,that that also was kind of a
lifelong learning village whereyou could have everything from
preschool to PhD.
There's, there's housingdeveloped on site that we
planned out, that was done askind of condos, and so it really
(16:06):
is kind of this unique taste ofwhat, you know, if we're
serious about praying for, youknow, your will being done on
Earth as it is in heaven that'sone way to think of it You're
actually almost creating thishuman ecology that, you know,
almost restores that brokenconnection between you know, us
and the creator and creation ofvertical connection, as well as
(16:27):
the potential to restoreconnections horizontally, Right,
how easy is it in suburbia tohave a next door neighbor that
you never talk to, right?
You just see each other pullingout of the driveway, you know.
But that's totally differentthan even when you're in a place
like Disney or in a, you know,a piazza like this, where you
actually are rubbing shoulderswith so many different
demographics, people that havecompletely different faith
(16:48):
backgrounds, culturalbackgrounds, ethnic backgrounds,
and everyone's getting alonggreat because literally everyone
is there basically to share inthis process of making, forming
these magical memories basicallybetween them and their kids.
Quite often that really kind ofstand the test of time and you
know, there's no price tag, nobarcode, but that's really the
(17:09):
product that Disney's creatingare those memories, and they've
learned that they can keepcharging.
More and more people still come, you know yeah, I know no doubt
.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
So you, you were sharing about that one.
What, um, what other kind ofprojects have you helped like
churches specifically with?
Like, yeah, do you do likewhole new builds of things with
them and think about like thebuilding, or are you thinking
about like the whole communityaround it when they're building
something bigger, or like Idon't know?
Give me, help me understand.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
So again, it's a three-dimensional storytelling.
So a church may come across usand say, hey, we, we just need
help with our brand, for example.
They might need a new name, anew logo, a new new front, a
digital front porch, a new Website.
Right, that's, that's the firststep of storytelling.
Right is an introduction and aname and quite often, you know
(18:00):
we've helped.
You know folks get out ofwhatever denominational or box
or preset preconception peopleyou know had on whether that's
just a visual update, whetherit's a completely new name.
You know that's quite often astarting point, right?
You know, sometimes it's like,hey look, we've got an
(18:21):
environment, a facility, campus,or we don't.
We need help figuring out howwe can express that story in,
whether it's a temporary setuplike a school.
We have loved working withchurch planners, work with
Elevation Church, steve Furtick,when they got in their first
Kmart building, and we're ableto kind of take whatever visual
(18:41):
identity they had created inlike an event space, translate
that into their first physicalenvironments, even if it's just
a renovation of an existingspace, and then, of course,
ultimately in many cases we'reable to either create a new
structure from scratch in termsof full architecture,
engineering, interior design, oreven an entire site from master
(19:04):
planning.
In America it's kind of weird toexist as a church.
You almost need permission toexist.
There's no such thing,typically as a church zone, so
you have to, instead of know,instead of being cited on the
highest hill and the mostprominent location, like you
were historically in Europe, youhave to almost beg for the
forgiveness to exist.
So that's where you know.
As an urban planner, I've beenable to master plan over a
(19:25):
thousand sites successfully withcondition use permits and and
basically make the argument that, hey, we actually can be an
asset, not an eyesore, not ablack hole in the community not
paying sales tax or notgenerating sales tax, not paying
property tax.
But you know, and one of theways that we've been busy with
(19:46):
that in some cases is justidentifying that the traditional
suburban American churchsolution of having a building
and a parking lot sit prettymuch empty six and a half days a
week may not be considered thebest stewardship, you know, by
by either serious disciples ofChrist or even their, their,
their civic leaders or neighbors.
(20:07):
You know, because you'reliterally just creating this
heat, sink, asphalt parking lot.
And you know, for years it waslike, oh, I've got a solution,
let's plug in a school into theSunday school or daycare, or get
some guys to use the gym andcreate a multi-useless
gymatorium, kind of thing, not alot of creativity into that.
There's a lot better ways to useyou know that site and space
(20:30):
and parking lot.
So we've been able to introduceyou know there's no one go-to
solution but you know, likesomething as simple, as like a
lobby, like, if you design itright, why couldn't that be this
amazing co-working space withscreaming Wi-Fi?
You know awesome espresso,great.
You know drop-in daycare, playcenters, I mean gathering places
(20:52):
, meeting rooms.
Why can't it be the go-to placefor people to kind of come
together rather than just beingstuck in a you know office
cubicle or in a spare bedroom?
And so again, that's not evenany creativity, but that's just
saying from ground up, like anarthex or a lobby, like it be
something other than that.
(21:13):
You know the other six and ahalf days a week, but you know
again, whether it's housing,whether it's artist galleries,
whether it's food halls, I meanall kinds of solutions.
One of my favorites is we wepartner with a local homeless
shelter and turned an abandonednursery space into this thing
called restoration roasters.
That was basically providingjobs, training, but it was
actually the best coffee housein this big region, kind of
(21:35):
award-winning coffee house.
But you know the choice ofevery design.
Every material was allreclaimed wood, reclaimed bricks
.
It was telling the story ofrestoration, reclamation,
renewal, both in every personthat you're interacting with,
because you've got someone thatwas formerly homeless, now
they're.
You know, a student that kindof looks like this hipster
barista.
(21:55):
It's like this miracletransformation in the coffee.
Literally, the coffee is a cupof compassion, taste of
transformation, that's, you know, pretty humble, but you know
just a conversion of a little,teeny little nursery room into a
great coffee house, but we welove like large and small scales
of that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
So right, yeah, yeah house, but we we love like large
and small scales of that kindof stuff.
So, right, yeah, yeah, have youdone anything?
Uh where you're working I don'tknow whether it's new build or
you're coming in and helping achurch with like the interior of
a building, where you're likehelping them rethink uh, like I
don't know anything related tothe worship experience or any of
the like in you know?
Speaker 2 (22:33):
like you just think of a normal church.
Like you got someone preachingand you got the seats and that's
kind of church right yeah sonow anything cool there yeah, I
mean, that's par for the courseand that's really almost in most
cases, whether it's a renovatedworship center auditorium or
whether it's new ground up.
That really is kind of you know, obviously that's the engine,
that's the heart and soul, andso to be able to bring that I
(22:57):
would say early on, you know,the paradigm that we brought to
that was very much around theidea that hey, look, there is
one of the most powerfulstorytelling spaces in history
since the cathedrals.
That happens to cost a lot lessthan a cathedral and that's the
, the, the Hollywood filmbacklot soundstage, the idea of
(23:18):
this clear span soundstage.
We've done so many like reallycost of that but it's literally
probably about the lowest costper square foot for column free
space you can do.
But we've been able to createthese kind of soundstage spaces
where you know, blessed are theflexible we will not break.
You can tell whatever story,tell a different story week in,
week out and actually, ratherthan them look like a soundstage
(23:42):
.
We've been able to figure outall these different urban design
, architectural tricks tocompletely, whether we're just
stashing it behind evergreentrees, whether we're creating
false fronts, facades, whetherwe're just orienting one corner
to the street.
We've been able to kind of hidethe bigness by, you know,
ushering people through a portalor creating a different type of
(24:04):
feel.
But then once you get inside,you have really this flexible
space that we've got, you knowGod's gifts of technology and
media to really dress the sethowever we want, change it out
multiple times a year.
So we're big into flexibility.
That's something that'sprobably a consistent value over
time.
We're also big into stewardship.
I mean because we recognize thattension that especially when
(24:24):
people hear that there's somebackground with Disney, they're
like what do you do some MickeyMouse shaped church?
Or you know, we don't haveDisney's budget to do whatever
it's really.
Yeah, quite often it's notabout spending a dime extra than
they would have spent designing, kind of the church next door.
It really is just how youallocate those funds, like
what's the stuff that reallymakes an impact?
Speaker 1 (24:44):
that again makes you a better storyteller that's what
do you help churches thinkabout related to this stuff,
because it strikes me as, likemost churches built maybe
building a new building anddoing so they're like looking at
the next church, like they'relooking at the next kind of cool
church for inspiration, versustrying to like think about, like
rethink their space or dosomething unique for who they
(25:06):
are.
So, like, how do you come inand help somebody go on that
journey?
Speaker 2 (25:10):
yeah, it's a great point because it used to be
actually the standard go-to.
I call mr brady.
Every town had a mr bradychurch architect.
That's a deep cut man.
You got to see the brady bunchmovie but uh, you know, this is
the guy that just did his homechurch, you know, learned you
know, uh, on his home project.
And then he just becomes atrusted church architect.
(25:31):
So he kind of rovers the thesame idea, you know, because he
had 20 years ago.
You know, our main thing isreally trying to not look like
the church next door.
Be authentic, figure out yourown story and tell that.
And again, we certainly have abag of tricks, slash toolbox of
what we think are prettycost-effective flexible
(25:51):
storytelling techniques in termsof the way we use architecture
and interior design graphicstechnology to convey that story.
That, frankly, architecture interms of architectural,
structural engineering and roofforms, that is probably the
least cost-effective way ofconveying stories.
We've had a lot of celebritystar architects have their first
(26:14):
church commission and theythink, oh, I'm going to do this
thing in the form of prayinghands or a nun's hat or whatever
crazy ideas.
And there's just a lot moreeffective ways of telling
flexible, authentic stories thanthe roofline of the building,
like a lot of guys tried to doin the 60s and 70s.
And so again, same thing A lotof people are still, you know,
(26:35):
trying to achieve stuff withstuff that was state of the art.
When you're doing stained glasswindows in medieval cathedrals.
That was state of the art,audio video, lighting technology
.
Well, guess what there's?
There's other ways to spendthat money.
That give you some other moreflexible storytelling tools.
That give you some other moreflexible storytelling tools.
Then you know, I could get aled wall, or you know, same
(26:56):
price or a lot lower than astained glass window, for
example.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Yeah, yeah, that's kind of a crude example, but
yeah, yeah, very cool man.
So you're, you're headed off toa To Shanghai.
Yeah yeah, what's the projectout there?
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Well, I can't fully disclose it on air, but we're
happy to be working with Keep iton the DL.
That's okay.
We happen to be working with alot of the top gaming publishers
in the company Very cool andthere's a number of projects
that are bringing these.
You know, gaming generates moreand I'm talking about video
(27:32):
gaming, not casino gaming.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Oh yeah, I got three boys.
Yeah, exactly, they play plentyof video games.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Exactly, and it not just takes up the time but it
actually generates more revenuethan both the film and the music
industry combined.
So really have to be at thecusp of bringing you know.
Our team was deeply involvedwith a super Nintendo world for
universal, you know, from theblue sky phase to the.
You know architecture, to someof the building.
(27:57):
But again, the future of beingable to step into those types of
interactive stories, ie games,you know, to actually do more
than just be entertained but toactually live in some of these
environments is kind of kind ofcrazy.
So if you go on YouTube, googleit Saudi Arabia you'll see.
(28:19):
You know Mark Hamill doing alittle announcement about the
first gaming district outside ofRiyadh in Saudi Arabia.
So yeah, some fun stuff.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
My kids would be pumped to go do something like
that.
They've, uh, they've found, Idon't.
I don't remember exactly whereit was, if it was like Japan or
wherever, but it's like a hotel.
That's like all transformerthemed out, or whatever it's
tied to the theme park orsomething like that.
They're like dad, we want to gothere.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Yeah, yeah, they, they, they.
They've just started to rollout some of the announcements of
some of the stuff that is goingon just in the kingdom of Saudi
Arabia, but the Dragon Ball Ztheme park, I think, is
announced.
Yeah, it's, it's.
It's kind of crazy, that's wild.
It's going to be coming.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
So well, man, thanks for coming on the show.
We're excited to have you atthe conference yeah, can't wait
man hopefully people got alittle preview.
Today you're doing a workshop.
Uh any, any teasers, any, anylike?
Do you have a, a title?
Speaker 2 (29:24):
yet or a working idea and what you're going to go
over.
You know I'm gonna have to getover my jet lag, but uh, yeah,
it tends to be around that ideaof uh again, our, my last uh
mission is this idea ofthree-dimensional storytelling
that lifts the spirit andthere's ways, I think, that
contemporary apostles andkingdom leaders have been.
I feel like I've been humbledto get to learn from the feet of
(29:45):
some real Yodas out there andit's been great to partner with
guys.
My heart's broken over TonyMorgan and his family, some real
Yodas out there, and it's beengreat to partner with guys Like
my heart's broken over TonyMorgan and his family, but you
know just there's guys like Tonythat have just been amazing
(30:06):
co-workers and the idea ofadvancing Ekklesia, the power of
Christ-centered community tochange the world, because we
just, you know, I believe it'sjust still this amazing
storytelling and communityvessel, wherever two or more
gathered, that Christ is thereand so excited to share some of
the real life case studies ofhow that's happened around the
world Four corners.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Love it, love it.
We're excited to have you.
Thanks for coming on the show.
Thanks, guys, for listening.
Make sure to give the show alike, spread the word and we'll
catch you next week on anotherepisode of Modern Church Leader.
See ya.
Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Modern Church
Leader.
Excited to talk to our guesttoday who's coming to our
conference, going to be aspeaker, lead a great workshop,
but you get a little previewtoday.
So, mel, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hey, thanks man, Great to be here Honored.
Yeah, looking forward to theconference.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Where are you coming to us from?
You know?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I get to visit my beautiful bride, my cozy home
here in Orange County kind ofinland from Laguna Beach at
least once a week, literallyflying in from Miami and Orlando
and heading out in less than 24hours to Shanghai.
So I get to tag it in here.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Just running around, yeah, and actually I don't often
get to talk Go ahead.
But yeah, running around, yeah,and actually I don't.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
I don't often get to talk.
Go ahead, go ahead.
Oh, 102 degrees, man youbelieve that.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
So I'm in San Diego.
I don't often get guests fromthe West coast, so I live in San
Diego and it's blazing, it'slike a hundred and something
here.
Wow, it's crazy, I don't knowwhat's going on.
My, like my kids are in middleschool now and, uh, two of them
are trying out for the golf teamand so this week was their
first like golf practice andthey canceled golf practice
(01:15):
Cause it was too hot.
Yeah, I'm like what?
What's going on?
I let, I grew up in Vegas Likewe practiced in full football
pads in like 110.
We didn't cancel practice.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Yeah, we're pretty wimpy here.
We pay a premium for God'sthermostat to be set right at
about 72 to 80.
And so we freak out when the ACbreaks the natural.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
AC.
Trees are melting, grass isburning, everything's like bad,
but that's cool, man.
Well, why don't you tell us youdo some really cool stuff, a
unique set of skills and workexperience compared to maybe a
lot of our guests?
I'd love to hear you worked atDisney.
You do a bunch of things likehelping plan these kind of large
(02:01):
experiences and all kinds ofstuff.
So you help not just likechurches and ministries and
cause-based things, but you doall kinds of work.
But you know, tell us a story.
Go back to the.
You know how you got into like,what kind of stuff do you do
and how did you even get into it?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah, well, at the high level we do what we call
three-dimensional storytelling.
That lifts the spirit.
So I've got a brother that's apartner that is a kind of
technical digital guru.
He's got a team of former Pixarguys doing proprietary software
and applications forinteractive storytelling.
I've got another partner thatdoes strategic storytelling.
(02:39):
So branding, identity strategywork.
My passion focus since I was awee little kid has been what I
call spatial storytelling.
Some Disney fans know thatDisney had a unit called Disney
Imagineering and we basicallyare similar to that for the rest
(03:00):
of the world.
It doesn't happen to have agroup like that in-house.
So at Disney Imagineering wehad over 140 different
disciplines to basically tellstories in three-dimensional
spaces.
So everything from architecture, landscape architecture,
interior design, master planning, graphic design, show set
design.
So we actually have all thosedisciplines within our you know
(03:21):
that 150-person team.
So one of the things that we doout of that is we have a kind
of a special ops group of usthat have a kind of a passion
for kingdom work and over thelast few decades have probably
worked on probably about athousand cause oriented projects
(03:41):
, whether it's church campuses,hospitals, schools, you name it
around the world.
In fact you know an entirevillage for survivors of sex
trafficking.
You know some of the fastestgrowing churches in the country,
from Saddleback to Willow Creek, calvary, fort Lauderdale, you
name it.
So it's been a pretty crazyride to get to work with some
(04:03):
pretty amazing Sherpas and gurusalong the way.
But, like I said, it started asa kid.
I was born in Vietnam.
Earliest memories bombs goingoff in Saigon.
But then I also remember kindof getting evac'd out of there
before the fall of Saigon,making a trip to Disneyland,
looking at the twinkle lightsdown Main Street, usa and I
think the fusion of bombs goingoff and looking at the world
(04:25):
that was in a world thatcouldn't should be kind of made
some weird wiring.
So you know, I started drawingup future cities and theme parks
and places, like I said, that Iwanted to visit when I was
probably 11, 12 years old.
My first Boy Scout merit badgewas architecture.
So just a weird kid.
You know I wish they would havehad some of these theme park
designer video games when I wasa kid because I thought I was
(04:47):
the only weird guy in the world.
I wrote my first letter toDisney Imagineering when I was
like 13,.
I think no way.
Yeah, they sent the rejectionletter that said stay in school,
kid.
They didn't take me up on anyof my free consulting of all the
ways they could fix it.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
You're like, I'm here Word for free.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Yeah, so anyways, I'm here.
Word for free.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Yeah, so anyway, how long did you spend as an?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Imagineer.
You know I was there for about10 years the 90s was known by
the CEO at the time as theDisney decade and most of my
time was spent focused onreimagining and redeveloping the
area around the originalmagical little park that a daddy
built for his daughter'sDisneyland, which really was
just a quarter section of land160 acres.
(05:29):
Ultimately, we ended upplanning about two square miles
surrounding it, what's now knownas the Disneyland Resort Garden
District, and so it was reallygreat because Disney was paying
for my graduate degree at thetime.
I was learning while I wasdoing, and I would say that that
was kind of my real grad schoolas opposed to the actual
(05:50):
master's degree that I got.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
What kind of like give us a little bit of the
behind the scenes, behind thecurtain.
Like when you're an Imagineeryou're there for 10 years, like
would you learn working in thatkind of environment?
I mean, they're like one of thebest right, like Disney's one
of the best at this kind ofthing.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Well, you kind of really learned that man, people
are willing to pay a premium andyou have to.
It begs the question what arethey willing to pay that premium
for?
If they're willing to save up?
Deal with planes, trains,automobiles.
You know all this hassle oftravel to just just and then to
get to your front door and shellout.
You know at least 100 plus eachjust to step across the
(06:30):
turnstile threshold to enterinto this space.
What is that?
You know and you know.
Ultimately, what I learned wasreally the secret you know is
story.
You know, we've just come tobelieve that story is
fundamental to the humancondition.
Is story?
We've just come to believe thatstory is fundamental to the
human condition.
It's one of the things that Goduses to kind of differentiate
us from other creatures.
(06:51):
And without a sense of who weare, who I am, over space and
time, you kind of areschizophrenic and you just don't
have that significance.
And sometimes we tell ourselvesbad stories about ourselves,
right, and that's out of traumaand damage.
But at the end of the day,story really has the power to
form who we are and transformwho we can become, and again,
(07:11):
the power of spatialstorytelling, of understanding
the character setting and plot.
It's a fundamentally differentway of approaching placemaking,
whether it's the scale of a home, a hospitality experience, a
campus, a city, you know even aregion.
It's just a different approachthan normal modern, especially
(07:32):
modern minimalist design, whichis based on this kind of
religious mantra almost calledform follows function, that idea
of minimalist utilitarianism.
You know my graduate thesis waswas that?
hey, you know I think we forgotsomething a long way.
Throughout history, form hasfollowed fiction.
Spaces did tell stories, andyou know that's kind of I think
(07:54):
a skill that we learned atDisney was that man, if you have
the story right, that caninform thousands of design
decisions across multipledisciplines, and one plus one
equals three over and over again, and it really creates
compelling destinations that,again, are just different than
the average strip mall in theUnited States of Generica that
we all drive by and go to.
(08:15):
You don't have to hit thatWalmart.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was just driving by the Home
Depot.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
So I'm very familiar with that.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Yep the mall of Generica yeah, right, um, so so
you were there.
I mean, I don't know, I have somany like questions about like
the behind the scenes.
Like you walk into disney andwe did florida, so we did like
last summer maybe it was thesummer before we kind of hit all
(08:42):
the parks there.
So, like I get you.
When it's like you I mean you'retraveling, you're on planes and
you're in ubers and you got allyour luggage and you got the
hotel and it's like a wholething and it's not cheap to go,
do that, even if you do it ascost effective as possible.
Right, like making that wholething happen is not a cheap
adventure, but you're right,it's packed.
(09:04):
Like you go there and there'slike thousands and thousands of
people running around doingthese things.
Um, how does like is the storywhen you go into a disney theme
park like you have thesedifferent lands.
Is that kind of like like youthink through that stuff from
the beginning?
They just go like, okay, we'regonna have this big old theme
(09:25):
park for building a new one, andthey just think through the
different like areas of the parkand like what's gonna, you know
, like be interesting to peoplethan that right it like, said I.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
I like to point out to especially millennials, that
there was actually, in fact, ahistorical dude named walt
disney it's not just a corporateand in a lot of ways, the
original what we call castleparks, the disneyland and the
magic kingdom, I mean reallywere this authentic kind of
synopsis of uh walt disney'skind of.
You know this mid-century uhguy born at the turn of the
(10:04):
century, you know that had both.
This kind of.
You know this mid-century guyborn at the turn of the century,
you know that had both thiskind of roots in this optimism
you know of, you know lookingthrough the rose-colored lens of
nostalgia, editing out all thestuff he didn't know about.
You know injustice and you knowwhatever.
But just seeing those roots ofwhat a small town community that
supported each other could look, taste and feel like, you're
(10:25):
basically ushered into hischildhood Again through through
that editing of a Hollywood artdirector and an artist, right.
So it's much like animpressionist painter.
You're not just asking him topaint a, you know do an
Instagram photo of what he sawin reality, you're asking for
his interpretation.
And that's what Main Street youknow say is this quintessential
(10:45):
memory, right?
And then you enter into thiscentral hub area where you're
totally empowered to then stepinto almost the major kind of
narrative, televisual, filmicgenres you know, at least of the
day.
So I mean, you know, in the1950s, you know the Westerns
were kind of a big deal.
You know the idea of a new Westwas really what the whole
(11:06):
suburban push was about.
You know, when you're steppingnorth into the Disney Channel
through that castle, you'restepping east into the future,
which you know, the whole ideaof the space race and kind of
that mid-century optimism andfaith in corporate technology.
You know it was very much ofthe time.
And again that's when weapproach spatial storytelling.
(11:29):
A lot of times it does have tobe soil specific.
Again, whether we're workingwith a ministry, a corporate
entity, an IP, it's got to bethat right mix of kind of
character setting, plot, soilstory, silver to actually do
something that's got some legs.
You know it's really not justabout kind of rando, hey, let's
do.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
You know cartoon town you know right, right, you know
just paint everything brightcolors.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
And you know whatever ?
I literally just got done witha lunch meeting of a
entertainment attraction ownerthat just was dying, the the
manager just wanted to paintthese bright, wacky, gaudy
colors just to try to geteyeballs like, like you know not
a lot of thought into it.
I'm like, please don't justjust let us have at least one
conversation with yourstakeholders.
(12:17):
Well, I mean, they haven't beenhired yet, but I'm like okay,
let's just have one conversationand have some significance, to
give you some reasons for colors, rather than just someone
saying I need eyeballs, you know, to be grabbed you know from
the roadside, right yeah?
Speaker 1 (12:34):
So you went from that and then you created your own
thing, sounds like, with yourbrother and some partners and
you kind of said I want to gotake this skill, this talent,
out into the outside of Disney,what, what?
Give us an example of some ofthe types of projects you worked
on or you have worked on.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Yeah, well, I want to give credit not only to my
brother Peter, but a friendnamed Mike Foster who has been
around, good friend with BobGoff and guys like Jed Wilhite.
You know he really had thispassion for helping the church
tell a better story frankly.
You know, coming out of the 80s90s, you know the church and
televangelists and you know justdidn't have a great reputation.
There was a big disconnectbetween what especially
(13:15):
Americans thought of the churchor the megachurch versus you
know what they thought aboutJesus.
Even people were down with, youknow, the grace and truth and
compassion of Jesus, but theyjust saw a lot of hypocrisy and,
you know, whatever with thechurch.
And so the part of that originalholy discontent was man, we've
learned some skills along theway from the tech industry, from
(13:39):
the film industry, from Disney,that we thought could be
applied to churches in thekingdom.
And again, really initially itwas a pretty hard push to just
help lift the church out of thispit.
We thought of just kind of, uh,just generic, you know, kind of
cut and paste, um, kind oflet's just try not to.
(13:59):
I mean, back then the radicalthing to do at willow creek was
let's not try to offend anybodyby, you know, putting up any
crosses and making all of our.
Let's try to make our buildingsjust look neutral and, if
anything, let's make them looklike a community college or a
you know the campus term orwhatever.
So let's just not offend, almostlike hide the fact that we're
Christians or that it's areligious structure, and paint
(14:21):
everything black.
And you know that was kind ofthe punk rock approach back then
.
And we said, well, you know,there's a blank sheet of paper,
that's fine, but there's alsothe opportunity to paint on that
canvas and again tell a betterstory with a little more
intentionality.
And so again, you know some ofI'm still thinking about some of
the first churches that weencountered.
(14:42):
You know, one was happened tobe in a, in a town that is, you
know, not too far from here,called Corona, corona,
california, and before there wasa global pandemic named after
him.
Everyone thought that the townname was Spanish for beer or, or
(15:02):
you know the actual dictionarydefinition was a concentric
circle of light surrounding aluminous body.
So we ended up, you know, kindof playing up that, that idea of
a circle of light, digging intothe roots of kind of sacred
space, especially in kind ofpre-modern eras where, you know,
quite often the third place,the gathering place of cities
(15:23):
and communities, happen to be atthe foot of the cross, at the
foot of a cross shaped basilicaor a cathedral basilica or a
cathedral, and that that greatoutdoor room was that piazza,
that that, uh, you know, was thebest restaurants, best cafes,
you know, you're, you're.
It was more expensive to livecloser to that central gathering
place and for the way that thatwas also where the town, well,
(15:44):
was the source of living water.
So in that particular case, wecame up with this idea of sort
of this post-modern piazza, uh,that that also was kind of a
lifelong learning village whereyou could have everything from
preschool to PhD.
There's, there's housingdeveloped on site that we
planned out, that was done askind of condos, and so it really
(16:06):
is kind of this unique taste ofwhat, you know, if we're
serious about praying for, youknow, your will being done on
Earth as it is in heaven that'sone way to think of it You're
actually almost creating thishuman ecology that, you know,
almost restores that brokenconnection between you know, us
and the creator and creation ofvertical connection, as well as
(16:27):
the potential to restoreconnections horizontally, Right,
how easy is it in suburbia tohave a next door neighbor that
you never talk to, right?
You just see each other pullingout of the driveway, you know.
But that's totally differentthan even when you're in a place
like Disney or in a, you know,a piazza like this, where you
actually are rubbing shoulderswith so many different
demographics, people that havecompletely different faith
(16:48):
backgrounds, culturalbackgrounds, ethnic backgrounds,
and everyone's getting alonggreat because literally everyone
is there basically to share inthis process of making, forming
these magical memories basicallybetween them and their kids.
Quite often that really kind ofstand the test of time and you
know, there's no price tag, nobarcode, but that's really the
(17:09):
product that Disney's creatingare those memories, and they've
learned that they can keepcharging.
More and more people still come, you know yeah, I know no doubt
.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
So you, you were sharing about that one.
What, um, what other kind ofprojects have you helped like
churches specifically with?
Like, yeah, do you do likewhole new builds of things with
them and think about like thebuilding, or are you thinking
about like the whole communityaround it when they're building
something bigger, or like Idon't know?
Give me, help me understand.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
So again, it's a three-dimensional storytelling.
So a church may come across usand say, hey, we, we just need
help with our brand, for example.
They might need a new name, anew logo, a new new front, a
digital front porch, a new Website.
Right, that's, that's the firststep of storytelling.
Right is an introduction and aname and quite often, you know
(18:00):
we've helped.
You know folks get out ofwhatever denominational or box
or preset preconception peopleyou know had on whether that's
just a visual update, whetherit's a completely new name.
You know that's quite often astarting point, right?
You know, sometimes it's like,hey look, we've got an
(18:21):
environment, a facility, campus,or we don't.
We need help figuring out howwe can express that story in,
whether it's a temporary setuplike a school.
We have loved working withchurch planners, work with
Elevation Church, steve Furtick,when they got in their first
Kmart building, and we're ableto kind of take whatever visual
(18:41):
identity they had created inlike an event space, translate
that into their first physicalenvironments, even if it's just
a renovation of an existingspace, and then, of course,
ultimately in many cases we'reable to either create a new
structure from scratch in termsof full architecture,
engineering, interior design, oreven an entire site from master
(19:04):
planning.
In America it's kind of weird toexist as a church.
You almost need permission toexist.
There's no such thing,typically as a church zone, so
you have to, instead of know,instead of being cited on the
highest hill and the mostprominent location, like you
were historically in Europe, youhave to almost beg for the
forgiveness to exist.
So that's where you know.
As an urban planner, I've beenable to master plan over a
(19:25):
thousand sites successfully withcondition use permits and and
basically make the argument that, hey, we actually can be an
asset, not an eyesore, not ablack hole in the community not
paying sales tax or notgenerating sales tax, not paying
property tax.
But you know, and one of theways that we've been busy with
(19:46):
that in some cases is justidentifying that the traditional
suburban American churchsolution of having a building
and a parking lot sit prettymuch empty six and a half days a
week may not be considered thebest stewardship, you know, by
by either serious disciples ofChrist or even their, their,
their civic leaders or neighbors.
(20:07):
You know, because you'reliterally just creating this
heat, sink, asphalt parking lot.
And you know, for years it waslike, oh, I've got a solution,
let's plug in a school into theSunday school or daycare, or get
some guys to use the gym andcreate a multi-useless
gymatorium, kind of thing, not alot of creativity into that.
There's a lot better ways to useyou know that site and space
(20:30):
and parking lot.
So we've been able to introduceyou know there's no one go-to
solution but you know, likesomething as simple, as like a
lobby, like, if you design itright, why couldn't that be this
amazing co-working space withscreaming Wi-Fi?
You know awesome espresso,great.
You know drop-in daycare, playcenters, I mean gathering places
(20:52):
, meeting rooms.
Why can't it be the go-to placefor people to kind of come
together rather than just beingstuck in a you know office
cubicle or in a spare bedroom?
And so again, that's not evenany creativity, but that's just
saying from ground up, like anarthex or a lobby, like it be
something other than that.
(21:13):
You know the other six and ahalf days a week, but you know
again, whether it's housing,whether it's artist galleries,
whether it's food halls, I meanall kinds of solutions.
One of my favorites is we wepartner with a local homeless
shelter and turned an abandonednursery space into this thing
called restoration roasters.
That was basically providingjobs, training, but it was
actually the best coffee housein this big region, kind of
(21:35):
award-winning coffee house.
But you know the choice ofevery design.
Every material was allreclaimed wood, reclaimed bricks
.
It was telling the story ofrestoration, reclamation,
renewal, both in every personthat you're interacting with,
because you've got someone thatwas formerly homeless, now
they're.
You know, a student that kindof looks like this hipster
barista.
(21:55):
It's like this miracletransformation in the coffee.
Literally, the coffee is a cupof compassion, taste of
transformation, that's, you know, pretty humble, but you know
just a conversion of a little,teeny little nursery room into a
great coffee house, but we welove like large and small scales
of that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
So right, yeah, yeah house, but we we love like large
and small scales of that kindof stuff.
So, right, yeah, yeah, have youdone anything?
Uh where you're working I don'tknow whether it's new build or
you're coming in and helping achurch with like the interior of
a building, where you're likehelping them rethink uh, like I
don't know anything related tothe worship experience or any of
the like in you know?
Speaker 2 (22:33):
like you just think of a normal church.
Like you got someone preachingand you got the seats and that's
kind of church right yeah sonow anything cool there yeah, I
mean, that's par for the courseand that's really almost in most
cases, whether it's a renovatedworship center auditorium or
whether it's new ground up.
That really is kind of you know, obviously that's the engine,
that's the heart and soul, andso to be able to bring that I
(22:57):
would say early on, you know,the paradigm that we brought to
that was very much around theidea that hey, look, there is
one of the most powerfulstorytelling spaces in history
since the cathedrals.
That happens to cost a lot lessthan a cathedral and that's the
, the, the Hollywood filmbacklot soundstage, the idea of
(23:18):
this clear span soundstage.
We've done so many like reallycost of that but it's literally
probably about the lowest costper square foot for column free
space you can do.
But we've been able to createthese kind of soundstage spaces
where you know, blessed are theflexible we will not break.
You can tell whatever story,tell a different story week in,
week out and actually, ratherthan them look like a soundstage
(23:42):
.
We've been able to figure outall these different urban design
, architectural tricks tocompletely, whether we're just
stashing it behind evergreentrees, whether we're creating
false fronts, facades, whetherwe're just orienting one corner
to the street.
We've been able to kind of hidethe bigness by, you know,
ushering people through a portalor creating a different type of
(24:04):
feel.
But then once you get inside,you have really this flexible
space that we've got, you knowGod's gifts of technology and
media to really dress the sethowever we want, change it out
multiple times a year.
So we're big into flexibility.
That's something that'sprobably a consistent value over
time.
We're also big into stewardship.
I mean because we recognize thattension that especially when
(24:24):
people hear that there's somebackground with Disney, they're
like what do you do some MickeyMouse shaped church?
Or you know, we don't haveDisney's budget to do whatever
it's really.
Yeah, quite often it's notabout spending a dime extra than
they would have spent designing, kind of the church next door.
It really is just how youallocate those funds, like
what's the stuff that reallymakes an impact?
Speaker 1 (24:44):
that again makes you a better storyteller that's what
do you help churches thinkabout related to this stuff,
because it strikes me as, likemost churches built maybe
building a new building anddoing so they're like looking at
the next church, like they'relooking at the next kind of cool
church for inspiration, versustrying to like think about, like
rethink their space or dosomething unique for who they
(25:06):
are.
So, like, how do you come inand help somebody go on that
journey?
Speaker 2 (25:10):
yeah, it's a great point because it used to be
actually the standard go-to.
I call mr brady.
Every town had a mr bradychurch architect.
That's a deep cut man.
You got to see the brady bunchmovie but uh, you know, this is
the guy that just did his homechurch, you know, learned you
know, uh, on his home project.
And then he just becomes atrusted church architect.
(25:31):
So he kind of rovers the thesame idea, you know, because he
had 20 years ago.
You know, our main thing isreally trying to not look like
the church next door.
Be authentic, figure out yourown story and tell that.
And again, we certainly have abag of tricks, slash toolbox of
what we think are prettycost-effective flexible
(25:51):
storytelling techniques in termsof the way we use architecture
and interior design graphicstechnology to convey that story.
That, frankly, architecture interms of architectural,
structural engineering and roofforms, that is probably the
least cost-effective way ofconveying stories.
We've had a lot of celebritystar architects have their first
(26:14):
church commission and theythink, oh, I'm going to do this
thing in the form of prayinghands or a nun's hat or whatever
crazy ideas.
And there's just a lot moreeffective ways of telling
flexible, authentic stories thanthe roofline of the building,
like a lot of guys tried to doin the 60s and 70s.
And so again, same thing A lotof people are still, you know,
(26:35):
trying to achieve stuff withstuff that was state of the art.
When you're doing stained glasswindows in medieval cathedrals.
That was state of the art,audio video, lighting technology
.
Well, guess what there's?
There's other ways to spendthat money.
That give you some other moreflexible storytelling tools.
That give you some other moreflexible storytelling tools.
Then you know, I could get aled wall, or you know, same
(26:56):
price or a lot lower than astained glass window, for
example.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Yeah, yeah, that's kind of a crude example, but
yeah, yeah, very cool man.
So you're, you're headed off toa To Shanghai.
Yeah yeah, what's the projectout there?
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Well, I can't fully disclose it on air, but we're
happy to be working with Keep iton the DL.
That's okay.
We happen to be working with alot of the top gaming publishers
in the company Very cool andthere's a number of projects
that are bringing these.
You know, gaming generates moreand I'm talking about video
(27:32):
gaming, not casino gaming.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Oh yeah, I got three boys.
Yeah, exactly, they play plentyof video games.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Exactly, and it not just takes up the time but it
actually generates more revenuethan both the film and the music
industry combined.
So really have to be at thecusp of bringing you know.
Our team was deeply involvedwith a super Nintendo world for
universal, you know, from theblue sky phase to the.
You know architecture, to someof the building.
(27:57):
But again, the future of beingable to step into those types of
interactive stories, ie games,you know, to actually do more
than just be entertained but toactually live in some of these
environments is kind of kind ofcrazy.
So if you go on YouTube, googleit Saudi Arabia you'll see.
(28:19):
You know Mark Hamill doing alittle announcement about the
first gaming district outside ofRiyadh in Saudi Arabia.
So yeah, some fun stuff.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
My kids would be pumped to go do something like
that.
They've, uh, they've found, Idon't.
I don't remember exactly whereit was, if it was like Japan or
wherever, but it's like a hotel.
That's like all transformerthemed out, or whatever it's
tied to the theme park orsomething like that.
They're like dad, we want to gothere.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Yeah, yeah, they, they, they.
They've just started to rollout some of the announcements of
some of the stuff that is goingon just in the kingdom of Saudi
Arabia, but the Dragon Ball Ztheme park, I think, is
announced.
Yeah, it's, it's.
It's kind of crazy, that's wild.
It's going to be coming.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
So well, man, thanks for coming on the show.
We're excited to have you atthe conference yeah, can't wait
man hopefully people got alittle preview.
Today you're doing a workshop.
Uh any, any teasers, any, anylike?
Do you have a, a title?
Speaker 2 (29:24):
yet or a working idea and what you're going to go
over.
You know I'm gonna have to getover my jet lag, but uh, yeah,
it tends to be around that ideaof uh again, our, my last uh
mission is this idea ofthree-dimensional storytelling
that lifts the spirit andthere's ways, I think, that
contemporary apostles andkingdom leaders have been.
I feel like I've been humbledto get to learn from the feet of
(29:45):
some real Yodas out there andit's been great to partner with
guys.
My heart's broken over TonyMorgan and his family, some real
Yodas out there, and it's beengreat to partner with guys Like
my heart's broken over TonyMorgan and his family, but you
know just there's guys like Tonythat have just been amazing
(30:06):
co-workers and the idea ofadvancing Ekklesia, the power of
Christ-centered community tochange the world, because we
just, you know, I believe it'sjust still this amazing
storytelling and communityvessel, wherever two or more
gathered, that Christ is thereand so excited to share some of
the real life case studies ofhow that's happened around the
world Four corners.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Love it, love it.
We're excited to have you.
Thanks for coming on the show.
Thanks, guys, for listening.
Make sure to give the show alike, spread the word and we'll
catch you next week on anotherepisode of Modern Church Leader.
See ya.
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