Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Listen to Hudson River Radio dot Com.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Don't make us come and find you. I'm Linda Zimmerman.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
I'm Brian Harrowitz, and this.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Is Murder in the Hudson Valley on Hudson River Radio
dot Com and welcome everyone to our episode this evening. Brian,
how are you doing.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Hanging in there? It's just an allergy season as.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
We record this, so I'm gonna try to keep my
noises to a minimum.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
All right, Well, I'm gonna make a lot of noise
tonight because I am fired up. Alright, this is the
most fired up. And you know I've gotten very fired
up on some of these cases, but this is this
is it now, you and I. In the past years
we've had some spirited debates about the JFK assassination.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
That's true, have we not.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Yes, yes, you're in.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
You're a little more emotionally invested, but it is fun
to talk you up.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
So, yeah, you're in the h or were I don't
know where you stand now, the Oswald lone Nut assassin.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
You were lean in that direction my whole Let me
try to sum it up. The more complex a plan gets,
the less likely. It's true, So all these conspiracy things
and linking all these things that may or may not
be linked, and making it so complicated if you're going
to take out an individual, even the president doing it,
(01:33):
there as some giant conspiracy in public and just it
doesn't add up. This is the guy that went swimming
inside the White House with one or two other people
in the room, but other people had access to he
had lots of visitors of the female persuasion that could
have been planted. There were so many other ways. If
(01:55):
you're going to try to take the guy out without
the public spectacle.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Well, I completely disagree.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
I think you.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
I think there were I think about the only person
who wasn't involved was Oswald. He did not even take
a shot. But let's now, what I'm doing here today
is a murder that I am saying sets the precedent
for assassinating a president.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Okay, all right.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Sets the precedent for assassinating a president. So let's calmly,
well as calmly as I can do it, and let's
calmly go into this murder. And then at the end,
let's reevaluate what was possible that you could get away with.
In Texas in the nineteen sixties, Okay, all right, we
(02:47):
are going to Brian, Texas.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Any idea where that is not a clue?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Neither? Do I not important? It is June third, nineteen
sixty one. It is the farm of fifty one year
old Henry Marshall. He is an agriculture agency inspector.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
He is found face down, quite dead by the side
of his Chevy fleet side pickup truck. Do you know
what a Chevy fleet side pickup truck looks like? Possibly
the coolest pickup truck ever made. Okay, so everybody google
Chevy fleet Side the front of that truck. I'm not
(03:31):
a huge pickup truck fan by any means. I would
drive a Chevy fleet Side proudly. Okay, but I have
already digressed. But I couldn't help it because of course
I had to look up because I found an article
that specifically mentioned his truck. So he's found dead by
the side of it. There's blood on splattered on the truck.
(03:54):
There is a this is very important bolt action twenty
two rifle next to him. I think we both fired
bolt action weapons. You have to you want to explay,
you have to cock the bolt, yes.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
And do you open the bolt it kicks out the
casing and you have to physically put in the next round,
push the bolt forward, lock it down. Very popular with
especially the younger shooting clubs at the time. Twenty twos
are cheap, so you could target shoot all day and
not run up a giant bill.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
So okay, So poor mister Marshall, he has bruises on
his face, a deep head wound, and five gunshot wounds
on the left side of his chest and abdomen. There
are four exit wounds in the back, so four went
(04:54):
through and through and one was still in his body.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Bruises on the deep head wound, lying face down and
shot five times in the side, ostensibly with a bolt
action rifle. This was Marshall's own rifle. Sheriff Howard Stagel
remember that name. Stagel arrives at the scene. Well, obviously
(05:21):
it's a suicide reaction.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
With five rounds from a bolt.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Action okay, with the bruises on the face and the
deep head wound. So because he said it's so obviously
a suicide, no photographs were taken, no fingerprints were taken
from the rifle or the truck, No spent bullets were recovered.
(05:50):
No ballistics tests were done on the rifle to even
determine if that was the weapon that killed him. No
blood samples were taken from the truck, no autopsy, absolutely,
zero investigation, and within twenty four hours the truck was
washed and waxed. Okay, Marshall was to all accounts, happily married,
(06:17):
had kids, good job, enjoyed his life. Absolutely no hint
of suicide, which we never know what goes on in
a person's head. But wife and brothers said absolutely no way.
So this is an agricultural inspector in a small town
(06:37):
in a rural area of Texas. What kind of enemies
could he have made? Well, why don't we take our
first break before we dig in Hudson Riverradio dot com.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Hudson Riverradio dot com.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
We are back in a very suspicious crime scene, which
your initial reaction is.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
A very very lazy sheriff right off the bat, I
didn't want to do the work.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Or a very corrupt sheriff more to it.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, clearly, who shoots themselves five times
in the side with a bolt action rifle and we're
going to see that it was absolutely impossible for him
to do this. And with the bruises and the deep
head wounds. It's nonsense, it's absolute nonsense. But this is
(07:40):
Texas justice back then. So what was going on with
Henry Marshall. Well, the year before, in nineteen sixty, he
was given the case to look into Billy saul Estes, who,
on the surface was a rich Texas businessman, very close
to one Lyndon Baines Johnson. For those who are much
(08:05):
much younger than me and don't know who Johnson was,
he was a congressman from thirty seven to forty nine,
he was a Senator from forty nine to sixty one,
and then of course he was vice president with JFK
and then conveniently became president when JFK's had got shot
(08:26):
open in Dallas. So he was supposedly a great friend
to the farmer and just a brilliant self professed brilliant businessman,
and that's, you know, all on the surface. In reality,
he was a scam artist of remarkable gall and talent
(08:52):
up to his eyes in debt and had a very
lucrative slush fund for l Bjay's campaigns. So supposedly LBJs
we need another million dollars, all right, you know, I'll
get you the money. EST's once threw a party for
(09:15):
the entire town of Pecos, Texas, and invited all thirteen
thousand people to his mansion and lavish grounds for yeah, okay, okay,
So this is the kind of person, rather ostentatious I have.
I have had some very interesting parties, but never invited
(09:37):
thirteen thousand people.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
To my house.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
So excessive, little bit, little bit. So what was he
involved in? What were some of the big scams late
fifties early sixties. He had a very lucrative mortgage scam
on nonexistent fertilizer tanks. So full disclosure here, I haven't
(10:03):
a clue about fertilizer tanks. Apparently they're big expensive things,
and he would convince farmers to take out these mortgages
on It was this whole scheme for these fertilizer tanks
that didn't exist, so then he could get credit to
(10:26):
finance other things. Very involved, quite brilliant, and any time
there was an inspector to wow, this is like thousands
of fertilizer tanks. We want to make sure this is legit.
They'd have one or two fertilizer tanks, they'd drive it
to a farmer's field and put an ID label on it,
(10:48):
a serial number, and before the inspector could get to
the next farm, they'd drive it over to the next farm,
wow and switch the serial numbers. Okay, okay, So this
is the kind of level we're talking with.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
This sky this or they Yes, okay.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
They were because they were getting something out of It's
it's a long involved thing. They were getting something out
of it, and what did they care? You know, and
they're making a friend in high places. So his other
scam was cotton allotments. I had to look into what's
(11:30):
a cotton allotment? Well, there was a loss that since
the depression, for some reason, you were only able to
plant cotton on thirty percent of your land, and it
was a lucrative thing, and so people wanted to plant
more cotton, but you only had a certain allotment. So
he decided he got this team of people to find
(11:53):
all these farmers who had either quit farming or moved
out of state, but they still had their cotton allotments
throw from. So from one hundred and sixteen different farmers,
he bought thirty two hundred acres of cotton allotments okay
again he even thinks of this right, let alone can
(12:18):
can carry it out. And this was these were worthless
to these farms. You know, you're now living in Georgia.
What do you need a Texas cotton allotment? Hey, I'll
take some. I'll take fifty bucks, I'll take one hundred.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
You know, somebody else do the work.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Sure, yeah, yeah, you can, you know things. So this
was incredibly illegal, and Marshall, you know, he looked in
and he's like, oh boy, this is forget it. He
sends a report to Washington d C. To not approve
any transfers of allotments. Well ST's doesn't want to hear that,
(12:54):
and all the people who were in on it didn't
want to hear that. So they send lawyerji On Dennison
to reason with Marshall. So in January of sixty one,
they have a meeting and they figure, oh, well, just
sweet talk m SDS. You know, thinks they're going to
just sweet talk Marshall. He's not having any of it.
(13:16):
He said, any scheme or device to buy allotments will
not be approved and prosecution will follow if the operation
is ever used. In other words, don't even try it.
Or we'll throw your asit.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
He's actually doing his job.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Yes, yes, which is not what they wanted to hear.
And so he files his report with Washington and that
same day suddenly he's offered a big fat promotion in Washington,
d C. As in, drop the SD case, leave Texas
and everybody will be happy. He realizes it's a bribe
(13:56):
and he's not going to stand with stand for it,
and he railed. Oh boy, Estes has friends in very
very high places that you know, they were able to
immediately try to arrange this. So he refuses because he's
a man of integrity. Well, men of integrity don't always
(14:17):
come out on top. Unfortunately, LBJ is now vice president
and there is a real scandal brewing and there is
the real possibility that he's going to be indicted. The
vice president may be indicted on these scams. Not a
good thing. So ST's rites to Cliff Carter, that's a
(14:43):
big name in this in the whole LBGA JFK thing,
a very close aide to LBJ.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
How was I'm sorry to interrupt, but how was LBJ involved?
Speaker 2 (14:58):
He was the one he was benefiting financially from SD's scams.
He would tell SD's we need this amount of money.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
So and was he involved with this promotion thing.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
He was probably the one who said to you know,
SD's said to him, you know this, Yeah, something has
to be can you do something with this guy? So
LBJ is now the vice president and apparently he told someone,
you know, make him the damn assistant secretary of agriculture,
(15:38):
whatever it is, to get him out of there. Because
LBJ was we know, he was not a choir boy.
He it's into a lot of that. You don't get
to where he was in Texas politics by keeping your
hands clean, let's face it. So anyway, yes, he's I mean,
I'm I could go into an hour on that, but
(16:01):
we have a lot to cover here. So yeah, there
were indictments that could have definitely be pending, so they
kept trying. They had eleven different meetings with Marshall with
Texas officials over the next few months, and Marshall wouldn't budge,
and on June third, suddenly he ends up dead, shot
(16:25):
to death, supposedly with his own rifle, self inflicted. The undertaker,
Manly Jones, said to me, it looked like murder. I
just do not believe a man could shoot himself like that.
So he told the local judge, Lee Farmer, this is
obviously a murder, and the judge told him, you're going
(16:49):
to put suicide on the death certificate because the sheriff
told you so, told you to do it. So on
the death certificate was death by gun shot, self inflicted. Okay,
so little tight grip here on the legal system. So
Marshall's wife and brother offer a two thousand dollars reward
(17:13):
for the truth any witnesses. Well, yeah, they find Nolan Griffin.
A gas station attendant said that right before the murder,
a stranger stopped by and asked directions to the Marshall farm. Okay,
small town area. Some stranger comes in, how do I
(17:34):
get to this guy's farm? And I guess it was
a couple hours later he stops by the gas station
again said I found it, you know, I found him.
And then they find out he's been murdered. So they
get a composite sketch artist who's very good, and they
(17:55):
sketch this picture sky with like thick grimmed glasses and
kind of curlyish hair or whatever. Looks surprisingly like a
man named Mac Wallace. So who's Malcolm Wallace. Well, he
was a convicted murderer. He was a very smart economist
with the Department of Agriculture on October twenty second, nineteen
(18:20):
fifty one. We're going back ten years. Okay, I know
there's a lot, but the devil's in the details, and
there's a lot of devils in this story. October twenty second,
nineteen fifty one. He walks into the clubhouse of the
Pitch and Putt golf course in Austin, Texas, owned by
(18:41):
a man named John Kinzer. Wallace walks right up to
Kinser and puts three bullets in his chest. He then
runs out, drives away. Well, there were witnesses, they got
his license plate, they could identify him. He's arrested, all right,
blaytant murder, broad daylight. Okay, the long, corrupt, short story.
(19:08):
Guess who sends his attorney to defend mac Wallace.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Mister Es, Oh, higher than that, mister LBJ.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Yes, mister lbj's attorney, John Cowfer, comes to well, why
is he defending a murderer? The prosecution puts forth no motive.
Some people were saying, oh, Kinser was having an affair
with Malcolm Wes Wallace's ex Well Kinser was having an
(19:44):
affair with Josepha Johnson. That was lbj's wild and crazy sister.
Josepha Johnson was also having an affair with Mac Wallace.
You know, I know you don't like complicated stories, but
(20:05):
when the complications are the truth, this is how weird
it is.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Okay, just like complicated stories. I'm just my thing is
connecting dots that don't have well solid string. Now, if
this is true, it is interesting. I've never heard this before.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Yes, this there's a lot of dots and a lot
of strings.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
So both men were having an affair with Josipha Johnson,
who was a bit of a liability to LBJ because
she was, you know, in a time when women were
supposed to be demure.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
I don't think she'd wear pants yet in Texas at
the time.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Probably not well, not that she wore pants anyway. Even
if she could wear them, she wouldn't be wearing them. So,
whatever the motive was, some people were saying Kinser maybe
knew too much about the Johnson's or maybe he was
blackmailing LBJ. Whatever it is again, Broad Daylight Murder Jury
(21:08):
finds Mac Wallace guilty with malice a forethought. Eleven jurors
recommend the death penalty. One says, let's give him life
in prison. Okay, all right, do you agree with that verdict?
Speaker 3 (21:25):
Sounds like it from what you're telling me.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Yes, yeah, No, I mean they had evidence out the wazoo, witnesses, ballistics,
you know, the whole bit, no doubt. He just murdered
Kinser in cold blood. Well, Judge Charles Betts, he doesn't
like that. He overrules, the jury gives Wallace a five
(21:49):
year suspended sentence, and he's free to go. Okay, what
do you think of that.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
Little corruption, little bit connection going on there? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Yeah, this is Texas Justice lbjstyle. We are setting a
pattern where blatant murders blatant murderers. You're free to go,
have a nice day. Hope we didn't bother you with
this whole trial here for murdering someone. Okay, we now
have a blatant murder ruled as a suicide with no investigation,
(22:27):
and before that, ten years earlier, we have a blatant
murder with a five year suspended sentence. Okay, so why
don't we take our second break. I need to take
a deep breath, center my thoughts and then we'll finish this.
This is Hudson Riverradio dot com. This is Hudson River
(22:51):
Radio dot com. Welcome back. And perhaps I sound quite calm,
but I am actually kind of. Yes, yes, if you've
ever used a pressure cooker and there's you know, if
you put one of those little things on my head,
it would be releasing the steam in little bits right now,
(23:15):
ready to burst. All right, outrageous, absolutely outrageous.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
You agree, sounds like it?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Yep, yes, yes, okay, So what do we have here?
We have Sti's and LBJ are crooks. Marshall tries to
stop them, he ends up dead. The suspect is Mac Wallace,
who was sleeping with lbj's sister, So was his murder victim,
John Kinser, who gets off scot free with the help
(23:45):
of lbj's lawyer. And of course Marshall's death is considered
to be a suicide. But wait, there's more. Josifa Johnson,
the wild penciless sister of of LBJ, as I said,
quite the liability, Well, she was also a bit of
(24:07):
an alcoholic and she did have some health issues. But
suddenly Christmas of sixty one, she ends up dead. Well,
it must have been a cerebral hemorrhage. Why they say that,
I don't know. No autopsy, no nothing. Uh, she's dead.
That's it. She's out of the picture. Okay. Maybe it
(24:30):
was a cerebral hemorrhage. Maybe there was some extenuating circumstances.
Maybe LBJ got rid of another problem. I don't know.
I'm just throwing out out there that there's another another
suspicious death, or at least an une investigated death. Okay,
(24:51):
wouldn't a forty nine year old woman, wouldn't you conduct
an autopsy?
Speaker 1 (24:54):
I would have done the same for Marshall in the
beginning as well.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yes, yes, thank you.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
So, by nineteen sixty two, SD's schemes are and scams
are exposed. He's arrested, and just as the indictments are
coming out, Oh wait, there's another suspicious death. ST's chief accountant,
George Krtullik is found dead in his car. There is
(25:28):
a hose running from the exhaust pipe into the car.
What would you conclude.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
From the look of its suicide carbon monoxide?
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Yes, so that's what they say. Nothing to see here,
no need for an investigation. He committed suicide. By carbon
monoxide poisoning, except they did do an autopsy there was
absolutely no carbon monoxide in his blood or in his lungs.
Huh huh. So why is he sitting in a car
(25:59):
with the pipe, you know, the hose running? Isn't that suspicious?
What he does have is severe bruises and head injuries.
Might look like murder, but no, it must have been
a heart attack, because you would connect a hose to
(26:21):
your car, not turn it in, beat yourself up in
the head, and then die of a heart attack in
your car. Okay, m hm, suspicious A little bit, a
little bit, a little bit Okay, what are we ad?
Four bodies now? Marshall, Kinser, Josepha and Krtullik. Okay, interesting
(26:41):
how these people in Texas end up dead? Okay, we
need a We need a hero now, a living hero.
Enter the tough, smart Texas ranger Clint Peoples heard of him,
very famous Texas ranger. He he looks into Marshall's death
(27:01):
and reports to his superiors it would be utterly impossible
for mister Marshall to have taken his own life. He
gets them to exhume the body and the evidence is
going to be shown before the Robertson County Grand Jury.
They get Houston pathologist Joseph yehinchk I hope I'm pronouncing
(27:24):
in that right. Well, what's the first thing they find
in Marshall? That he did have carbon monoxide in his blood,
probably up to thirty percent. Now, fatal levels are over fifty,
but thirty percent is a lot. He's going to make
(27:47):
you groggy, may make you unconscious. There was no sign
of a hose going into his What did he do
He first tried to you know, he got himself carbon
monoxide poisoned before he then beat himself up and shot himself.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Was he standing behind his tractor for six hours just
breathing in the fumes.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Yeah, or maybe someone tried to kill him by carbon
monoxide first. Okay, so when they do the autopsy, remember
there were five shots. One of the shots went tore
right through his a order, that's pretty much instant death.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Yeah, that's it, that's it.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
You will be dead before you drop. But wait, he wrote,
reloaded the weapon, shot himself again through the lung, which
would have incapacitated him and killed him within seconds. But wait,
he then reloaded the bolt action. Remember this isn't an automatic,
you have to pull the bolt back reload shot him
(28:52):
through the liver, which would cause extremely heavy bleeding. Correct, yes,
you would probably be dead within seconds. But wait, he
shot himself two more times with this bolt action rifle.
So then he examined the head wound. The head wound
(29:14):
was so severe it would have knocked him unconscious. Okay,
So at what point did he knock himself unconscious before
he tried to poison himself with carbon monoxide and right
before he shot himself with three instantaneously fatal wounds plus
two others. It's just absolutely ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Even j Edgar Hoover, the very dubious head of the FBI,
then just a whole other ball of wax. He publicly said,
I just kind can't understand how anyone can fire five
shots at himself like that, because you can't. So slam dunk, right,
we are going to reverse the ridiculous find out of
(30:00):
suicide not so fast. In the grand jury, one member
was kind of strong arming the others and he was
very much thinking, oh yeah, this was a suicide. That
one man's name was Price Metcalf. Well, who was Price Metcalf?
(30:23):
You remember that sheriff's name, sheriff sheriff.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Hold on, let me find it, Sheriff Stagel.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Yes, guess who Price Metcalf was. Sheriff Stagel's son in law. Okay,
no conflict of interest here, none at all. So due
to uh Price Metcalf's strong arming, the statement came out,
considering all the evidence, we find it inconclusive to substantiate
(30:56):
a definite decision at this time or to overrule any
decision heretofore made. In other words, the verdict of suicide stands.
I'm waiting.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Yeah, that's a little pretty incredulous.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Yes, okay, again, we are setting the precedent for assassinating
a president. We are controlling. There was a there was
a federal judge involved in all this, trying to block
the investigate. There's a lot more to it. So it's
(31:37):
you know, clearly, you can control the courts, you can
control the judges, you can control the law enforcement, and
you can probably get people killed and get away with it,
in my opinion. So years past, Billy saul Estes goes
(31:59):
to jail, well not once, but twice. He gets out
and gets in trouble again and goes back JFK's assassinated.
LBJ becomes even more powerful as the president, and all
possible indictments of him just evaporate as soon as he's
sworn in, so all his troubles, or many of his
(32:20):
troubles are gone. Let's skip ahead twenty years nineteen eighty three.
ST's is out of prison. Remember Clint Peoples, the Texas Ranger.
He says, Billy, it's time for you to tell the truth. Says, okay,
now I'll do it. So in front of another Robertson
(32:41):
grand jury, County grand jury, which you know I have
little or no faith in, he testifies. And Okay, now
we know SD's is a lying, scam artist, but at
this point he's got nothing to lose. He's already been
in jail. Just about everybody involved is dead. But he says,
(33:03):
he testifies under oath, LBJ ordered Marshall's murder. He had
Cliff Carter, his aid, get mac Wallace to do it. Okay,
and remember that gas station attendant whose sketch it really
was the spitting image of mack Wallace. So it was
(33:25):
most likely mack Wallace who did it. And the plan
was to try to make it look like a suicide
with carbon monoxide poisoning. But Marshall was a big guy.
I think he was like six' to two. Something he
was a big. Guy he fought, back So wallace had
to shoot, him and In EST's, Words wallace sure did
(33:49):
botch it. Up but thanks to a corrupt legal system
and judges and the sheriff under, lbjsion it was ruled a. Suicide,
Okay so the grand jury decides to reject all of SD's,
testimony but all of the, other like the autopsy results are.
(34:15):
Out so they finally did reverse The marshal suicide verdict
twenty years later to a homicide by. Gunshot, however no
indictments were ever filed because by this POINT, Lbj Cliff,
carter And Mac wallace were all. Dead, now how Did
Mac wallace? Die you? Ask are you asking?
Speaker 3 (34:37):
THAT i am asking?
Speaker 2 (34:39):
That? Okay, well In january of nineteen seventy, one on a,
clear Dry texas, road he suddenly drove off the road
into a concrete abutment and he was found with massive head.
Injuries no autopsy because it was a simple single car
(34:59):
accident and supposedly and that was. It Clint peoples all,
right getting a little, interesting even more. Interesting june of
nineteen ninety, Two Clint people says he has a major
announcement in THE jfk, assassination and a few days before
(35:19):
the press, conference on a, clear Dry texas, road his
car suddenly went off the road and hit a telephone.
Pole single car, accident, tragedy but nothing to see here
except a woman came to his secretary a couple of
(35:40):
days later and said she saw a big red truck
come up Behind people's car and push him off the,
road essentially killing. Him but no one ever looked on
the back Of people's car to see if there was
an any signs of, being you, know another vehicle, pushing
(36:03):
so no investigation was. Made so he's he's killed in
the same Manner ala Mac. Wallace, okay so what was
this big announcement he was going to. Make, Now i'm
not sold on this, completely But Clint peoples was convinced
(36:26):
that we go back to the sixth floor of The
Texas School Book depository where Supposedly oswald had his sniper's
nest of. Boxes there had been some unidentified fingerprints on those. Boxes,
okay that's a that's a, Given and Supposedly wallace had
(36:47):
done some blind studies for two different fingerprint. Experts didn't
say who, this who they, were who they're and they
both of these fingerprint experts found a match to some
fingerprints that were obtained in a nineteen fifty one golf
(37:10):
club murder of Kinser Mac, wallace and both of them
said those were Mac wallace's. Fingerprints if, true Mac wallace's
fingerprints in the sniper's nest in the book. Depository, huh
let you all make your own conclusions with. THAT i
(37:34):
need to hear more about. This the one, expert Eh,
hoffmeister he, said, oh, yeah this is a match to this.
Guy and then when he finds out It's Mac wallace
and THE jfk. Assassination oh DID i say it was a? Match,
well it's not conclusive at, all you, know didn't want
any part of. It the other, Expert Nathan, darby said,
(37:57):
no it's a. Definite it's a definite. Match, Okay so
a lot of THINGS i threw at you. Tonight so,
basically people or under the influence of control OF lbj
were committing fraud and. Murder that's a, given all. Right
UNDER lbj and his, minions they were controlling, judges controlling law,
(38:22):
enforcement cover up of blatant murders in broad. Daylight sound.
Familiar there's numerous other. DEATHS i could go on all,
night but these are these are the you know Ones
i'm bringing up. Tonight so WHAT i see here is
a clear pattern, that in my, OPINION lbj was a
(38:45):
co conspirator in THE jfk assassination along with X cia
Chief Alan, dulles WHICH i haven't mentioned, before But dulles
was fired BY jfk and hated his guts and l
made him part of The Warren. COMMISSION i, mean right,
there what's up with?
Speaker 1 (39:05):
That?
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Okay maybe Mac wallace was a shooter from The Texas Schoolbook.
DEPOSITORY i don't. Know i'm throwing it out. THERE i
need to learn. More AND i Think Lee Harvey oswald
was exactly what he. Said he was a patsy who
didn't fire a. Shot they used pot power over highly
(39:28):
corrupt systems agencies to cover it. Up to, me the
only question left is just how many murders DID lbj
get away? With and, again in, conclusion This Henry marshall
case is setting the precedent for an assassination of the
president And i'm, done all.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Right, yeah a lot of pushpins and a lot of,
STRING i will give you.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
That, yes, Yes so if they could get away with the,
crap they did the blatant. Murders and it's just that
was the system that Was texas. Justice and what better
place to ASSASSINATE jfk than In texas where you are
(40:20):
controlling all the all the moving, parts and it was
the perfect place to do.
Speaker 3 (40:27):
It, okay all, right there's a lot to think about that.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Is, now were you aware of even half?
Speaker 3 (40:36):
This? No, no, yeah see.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
That's why you know a lot of skeptics who you,
know sticking To. Oswald oh well you bring up all
these you, know obscure. Things, yeah because they're the facts
of the, case and they're give you the. Background this
didn't Have THE jfk assassination wasn't a, sudden isolated you,
(41:02):
know it wasn't in a. Bubble it was in an
environment where you clearly could get away with.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Murder so saying we have a corrupt politician is not exactly,
groundbreaking no at, all you, Know and and favoritism and
bribery and follow the. Money that for me is always
number one is follow the. Money so, yeah, yeah. Follows you,
(41:31):
know it's to prove something like that it's one hundred
percent is almost. Impossible it's, well it could be, this
it could be it could be you, know and that's
where people latch on because they want to connect the.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
Dots but you.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Can certainly see this had been going on over and
over again with other with other.
Speaker 3 (41:53):
People so and.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
It's not going to be only In, texas you, know,
no no. Much of, course you're going to find corrupt,
up down and sideways.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Everywhere, yeah but this, degree this amount of, murders you,
know and LIKE i, SAID i just did a small
portion of. It SO i want to hear from. People
drop us a, line let us know what you think of,
this where you stand on. This there are other suspicious,
deaths shall we, say unsolved murders to talk. About if
(42:26):
you want to hear more in THE jfk assassination, realm
let me. Know AND i do want to recommend you
are the one who recommended to me The SOLVING jfk
podcast With Matt crumpton. Excellent, yeah, yeah. Lawyer he gives
you the. Facts he's Fabulous and if you really want
(42:48):
to go into the, WEEDS Jfk The Enduring secret With Jeff.
Crudell he's on episode two hundred and sixty. Four he
DID i think twelve episodes just On billy Sole. Estes
so that's how deep you can go into, this and
that's how deep people have. Gone And i'm resisting falling that.
(43:14):
Deep but clearly a case like, this IT'S i, mean
it's horrible for his, family his, friends and it took
twenty years to. Admit, yeah it's a blatant. Murder nobody
shoots themselves and with a bolt action rifle in the
(43:34):
aorta and then you, know fires more shots and the
bruises and the carbon. Monoxide my head almost blew off
And i'm, like, oh what's that doing? There what a?
Surprise so, yeah there we have. It so hopefully it
(43:55):
was somewhat. Persuasive it's you, KNOW i have never Said.
Oswald i've never said one hundred percent not there's a
lot to.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
It. Yeah my whole thing is even the MORE i,
learned connecting those things is not always. CONCRETE i don't
have my bulletin board, UP i don't have pictures, EVERYBODY
i don't have. STRINGS i don't remember everybody's name at.
Speaker 3 (44:20):
All you.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
Know, yeah as we've, Discussed i'm not as emotionally invested
in THE jfk case as you.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
Are well to, me it's so, yeah it's so important
because it was a coupdetas it, WAS i, believe a
vice president and underlings killing a president of The United
states to take, over and The Vietnam war then escalated as.
Speaker 3 (44:45):
A, result were.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
Escalated and we also got The Civil Rights act in
nineteen sixty, four so we could go back and.
Speaker 3 (44:52):
Forth oh well.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
Yeah ALSO lbj likely could have just waited for THE
jfk second term and stepped into.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
The presidency, Too so why put yourself out there.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
Because he was about to get indicted for all this
other crap that was, calling but.
Speaker 3 (45:12):
He took care of that with that, corruption right.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
That, yeah well follow the, money, yes and the Famous
latin term. Quibono who benefits most From lbj's, ASSASSINATION i
mean FROM jfk ASSASSINATION, Lbj no two ways about. It
so we could argue all.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
ALONG i THINK i think absolutely you're the.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Expert, yeah LIKE i, said the devil's in the, details
and there's. PLENTY i could get you a case of
pushpins and string and a bolt and, board and we
could spend two weeks connecting all the. Dots BUT i
wanted to put this out there for listeners who may
not be familiar with this case and who maybe now are,
(46:01):
saying oh my, god holy, crap this you know this
went on and maybe be LIKE i, said the experts SOLVING.
JFK jfk the enduring. Secret there's a book Called Choke
holds By JIM. D eugenio and some other, experts which
that's basically the points you cannot get past if you
(46:26):
Think oswald just did it. Alone so there's a lot
of good material out. There i'm not holding my breath
that anything comes out of THESE jfk. Documents it didn't
tell no so. FAR i, mean there's so many. Pages
but you, know DO i really THINK lbj wrote a
memo KILLED, jfk you, know and put it filed it
(46:48):
in the. System, no but there may be some little
tidbits in, there so so we shall. See so let
let us. KNOW i concert do more of.
Speaker 3 (47:01):
These, yeah it sounds like you have a whole lot
ready to. Go so, yeah it's. Interesting it's.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
Right it does show the level of nonsense that goes
on behind the. Scenes, yeah when people are in, power,
yep and it's a level of selfishness THAT i just
can't wrap my head.
Speaker 3 (47:20):
Around, yeah with these kinds of.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Things anything to stay in, Power, yeah and avoid.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
Prison, yeah that's all.
Speaker 3 (47:29):
Right you want to.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
Take us out since you've scrambled our brain so much, today.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
All, right all, right, well all, RIGHT i need to
calm down, now so hopefully you will all join us
next time For murder in The Hudson. Valley if you
are not, assassinated.
Speaker 3 (47:47):
This Is Hudson River radio dot. Com
Listen to Hudson River Radio dot Com.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Don't make us come and find you. I'm Linda Zimmerman.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
I'm Brian Harrowitz, and this.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Is Murder in the Hudson Valley on Hudson River Radio
dot Com and welcome everyone to our episode this evening. Brian,
how are you doing.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Hanging in there? It's just an allergy season as.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
We record this, so I'm gonna try to keep my
noises to a minimum.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
All right, Well, I'm gonna make a lot of noise
tonight because I am fired up. Alright, this is the
most fired up. And you know I've gotten very fired
up on some of these cases, but this is this
is it now, you and I. In the past years
we've had some spirited debates about the JFK assassination.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
That's true, have we not.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Yes, yes, you're in.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
You're a little more emotionally invested, but it is fun
to talk you up.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
So, yeah, you're in the h or were I don't
know where you stand now, the Oswald lone Nut assassin.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
You were lean in that direction my whole Let me
try to sum it up. The more complex a plan gets,
the less likely. It's true, So all these conspiracy things
and linking all these things that may or may not
be linked, and making it so complicated if you're going
to take out an individual, even the president doing it,
(01:33):
there as some giant conspiracy in public and just it
doesn't add up. This is the guy that went swimming
inside the White House with one or two other people
in the room, but other people had access to he
had lots of visitors of the female persuasion that could
have been planted. There were so many other ways. If
(01:55):
you're going to try to take the guy out without
the public spectacle.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Well, I completely disagree.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
I think you.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
I think there were I think about the only person
who wasn't involved was Oswald. He did not even take
a shot. But let's now, what I'm doing here today
is a murder that I am saying sets the precedent
for assassinating a president.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Okay, all right.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Sets the precedent for assassinating a president. So let's calmly,
well as calmly as I can do it, and let's
calmly go into this murder. And then at the end,
let's reevaluate what was possible that you could get away with.
In Texas in the nineteen sixties, Okay, all right, we
(02:47):
are going to Brian, Texas.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Any idea where that is not a clue?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Neither? Do I not important? It is June third, nineteen
sixty one. It is the farm of fifty one year
old Henry Marshall. He is an agriculture agency inspector.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
He is found face down, quite dead by the side
of his Chevy fleet side pickup truck. Do you know
what a Chevy fleet side pickup truck looks like? Possibly
the coolest pickup truck ever made. Okay, so everybody google
Chevy fleet Side the front of that truck. I'm not
(03:31):
a huge pickup truck fan by any means. I would
drive a Chevy fleet Side proudly. Okay, but I have
already digressed. But I couldn't help it because of course
I had to look up because I found an article
that specifically mentioned his truck. So he's found dead by
the side of it. There's blood on splattered on the truck.
(03:54):
There is a this is very important bolt action twenty
two rifle next to him. I think we both fired
bolt action weapons. You have to you want to explay,
you have to cock the bolt, yes.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
And do you open the bolt it kicks out the
casing and you have to physically put in the next round,
push the bolt forward, lock it down. Very popular with
especially the younger shooting clubs at the time. Twenty twos
are cheap, so you could target shoot all day and
not run up a giant bill.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
So okay, So poor mister Marshall, he has bruises on
his face, a deep head wound, and five gunshot wounds
on the left side of his chest and abdomen. There
are four exit wounds in the back, so four went
(04:54):
through and through and one was still in his body.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Bruises on the deep head wound, lying face down and
shot five times in the side, ostensibly with a bolt
action rifle. This was Marshall's own rifle. Sheriff Howard Stagel
remember that name. Stagel arrives at the scene. Well, obviously
(05:21):
it's a suicide reaction.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
With five rounds from a bolt.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Action okay, with the bruises on the face and the
deep head wound. So because he said it's so obviously
a suicide, no photographs were taken, no fingerprints were taken
from the rifle or the truck, No spent bullets were recovered.
(05:50):
No ballistics tests were done on the rifle to even
determine if that was the weapon that killed him. No
blood samples were taken from the truck, no autopsy, absolutely,
zero investigation, and within twenty four hours the truck was
washed and waxed. Okay, Marshall was to all accounts, happily married,
(06:17):
had kids, good job, enjoyed his life. Absolutely no hint
of suicide, which we never know what goes on in
a person's head. But wife and brothers said absolutely no way.
So this is an agricultural inspector in a small town
(06:37):
in a rural area of Texas. What kind of enemies
could he have made? Well, why don't we take our
first break before we dig in Hudson Riverradio dot com.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Hudson Riverradio dot com.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
We are back in a very suspicious crime scene, which
your initial reaction is.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
A very very lazy sheriff right off the bat, I
didn't want to do the work.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Or a very corrupt sheriff more to it.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, clearly, who shoots themselves five times
in the side with a bolt action rifle and we're
going to see that it was absolutely impossible for him
to do this. And with the bruises and the deep
head wounds. It's nonsense, it's absolute nonsense. But this is
(07:40):
Texas justice back then. So what was going on with
Henry Marshall. Well, the year before, in nineteen sixty, he
was given the case to look into Billy saul Estes, who,
on the surface was a rich Texas businessman, very close
to one Lyndon Baines Johnson. For those who are much
(08:05):
much younger than me and don't know who Johnson was,
he was a congressman from thirty seven to forty nine,
he was a Senator from forty nine to sixty one,
and then of course he was vice president with JFK
and then conveniently became president when JFK's had got shot
(08:26):
open in Dallas. So he was supposedly a great friend
to the farmer and just a brilliant self professed brilliant businessman,
and that's, you know, all on the surface. In reality,
he was a scam artist of remarkable gall and talent
(08:52):
up to his eyes in debt and had a very
lucrative slush fund for l Bjay's campaigns. So supposedly LBJs
we need another million dollars, all right, you know, I'll
get you the money. EST's once threw a party for
(09:15):
the entire town of Pecos, Texas, and invited all thirteen
thousand people to his mansion and lavish grounds for yeah, okay, okay,
So this is the kind of person, rather ostentatious I have.
I have had some very interesting parties, but never invited
(09:37):
thirteen thousand people.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
To my house.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
So excessive, little bit, little bit. So what was he
involved in? What were some of the big scams late
fifties early sixties. He had a very lucrative mortgage scam
on nonexistent fertilizer tanks. So full disclosure here, I haven't
(10:03):
a clue about fertilizer tanks. Apparently they're big expensive things,
and he would convince farmers to take out these mortgages
on It was this whole scheme for these fertilizer tanks
that didn't exist, so then he could get credit to
(10:26):
finance other things. Very involved, quite brilliant, and any time
there was an inspector to wow, this is like thousands
of fertilizer tanks. We want to make sure this is legit.
They'd have one or two fertilizer tanks, they'd drive it
to a farmer's field and put an ID label on it,
(10:48):
a serial number, and before the inspector could get to
the next farm, they'd drive it over to the next farm,
wow and switch the serial numbers. Okay, okay, So this
is the kind of level we're talking with.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
This sky this or they Yes, okay.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
They were because they were getting something out of It's
it's a long involved thing. They were getting something out
of it, and what did they care? You know, and
they're making a friend in high places. So his other
scam was cotton allotments. I had to look into what's
(11:30):
a cotton allotment? Well, there was a loss that since
the depression, for some reason, you were only able to
plant cotton on thirty percent of your land, and it
was a lucrative thing, and so people wanted to plant
more cotton, but you only had a certain allotment. So
he decided he got this team of people to find
(11:53):
all these farmers who had either quit farming or moved
out of state, but they still had their cotton allotments
throw from. So from one hundred and sixteen different farmers,
he bought thirty two hundred acres of cotton allotments okay
again he even thinks of this right, let alone can
(12:18):
can carry it out. And this was these were worthless
to these farms. You know, you're now living in Georgia.
What do you need a Texas cotton allotment? Hey, I'll
take some. I'll take fifty bucks, I'll take one hundred.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
You know, somebody else do the work.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Sure, yeah, yeah, you can, you know things. So this
was incredibly illegal, and Marshall, you know, he looked in
and he's like, oh boy, this is forget it. He
sends a report to Washington d C. To not approve
any transfers of allotments. Well ST's doesn't want to hear that,
(12:54):
and all the people who were in on it didn't
want to hear that. So they send lawyerji On Dennison
to reason with Marshall. So in January of sixty one,
they have a meeting and they figure, oh, well, just
sweet talk m SDS. You know, thinks they're going to
just sweet talk Marshall. He's not having any of it.
(13:16):
He said, any scheme or device to buy allotments will
not be approved and prosecution will follow if the operation
is ever used. In other words, don't even try it.
Or we'll throw your asit.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
He's actually doing his job.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Yes, yes, which is not what they wanted to hear.
And so he files his report with Washington and that
same day suddenly he's offered a big fat promotion in Washington,
d C. As in, drop the SD case, leave Texas
and everybody will be happy. He realizes it's a bribe
(13:56):
and he's not going to stand with stand for it,
and he railed. Oh boy, Estes has friends in very
very high places that you know, they were able to
immediately try to arrange this. So he refuses because he's
a man of integrity. Well, men of integrity don't always
(14:17):
come out on top. Unfortunately, LBJ is now vice president
and there is a real scandal brewing and there is
the real possibility that he's going to be indicted. The
vice president may be indicted on these scams. Not a
good thing. So ST's rites to Cliff Carter, that's a
(14:43):
big name in this in the whole LBGA JFK thing,
a very close aide to LBJ.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
How was I'm sorry to interrupt, but how was LBJ involved?
Speaker 2 (14:58):
He was the one he was benefiting financially from SD's scams.
He would tell SD's we need this amount of money.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
So and was he involved with this promotion thing.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
He was probably the one who said to you know,
SD's said to him, you know this, Yeah, something has
to be can you do something with this guy? So
LBJ is now the vice president and apparently he told someone,
you know, make him the damn assistant secretary of agriculture,
(15:38):
whatever it is, to get him out of there. Because
LBJ was we know, he was not a choir boy.
He it's into a lot of that. You don't get
to where he was in Texas politics by keeping your
hands clean, let's face it. So anyway, yes, he's I mean,
I'm I could go into an hour on that, but
(16:01):
we have a lot to cover here. So yeah, there
were indictments that could have definitely be pending, so they
kept trying. They had eleven different meetings with Marshall with
Texas officials over the next few months, and Marshall wouldn't budge,
and on June third, suddenly he ends up dead, shot
(16:25):
to death, supposedly with his own rifle, self inflicted. The undertaker,
Manly Jones, said to me, it looked like murder. I
just do not believe a man could shoot himself like that.
So he told the local judge, Lee Farmer, this is
obviously a murder, and the judge told him, you're going
(16:49):
to put suicide on the death certificate because the sheriff
told you so, told you to do it. So on
the death certificate was death by gun shot, self inflicted. Okay,
so little tight grip here on the legal system. So
Marshall's wife and brother offer a two thousand dollars reward
(17:13):
for the truth any witnesses. Well, yeah, they find Nolan Griffin.
A gas station attendant said that right before the murder,
a stranger stopped by and asked directions to the Marshall farm. Okay,
small town area. Some stranger comes in, how do I
(17:34):
get to this guy's farm? And I guess it was
a couple hours later he stops by the gas station
again said I found it, you know, I found him.
And then they find out he's been murdered. So they
get a composite sketch artist who's very good, and they
(17:55):
sketch this picture sky with like thick grimmed glasses and
kind of curlyish hair or whatever. Looks surprisingly like a
man named Mac Wallace. So who's Malcolm Wallace. Well, he
was a convicted murderer. He was a very smart economist
with the Department of Agriculture on October twenty second, nineteen
(18:20):
fifty one. We're going back ten years. Okay, I know
there's a lot, but the devil's in the details, and
there's a lot of devils in this story. October twenty second,
nineteen fifty one. He walks into the clubhouse of the
Pitch and Putt golf course in Austin, Texas, owned by
(18:41):
a man named John Kinzer. Wallace walks right up to
Kinser and puts three bullets in his chest. He then
runs out, drives away. Well, there were witnesses, they got
his license plate, they could identify him. He's arrested, all right,
blaytant murder, broad daylight. Okay, the long, corrupt, short story.
(19:08):
Guess who sends his attorney to defend mac Wallace.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Mister Es, Oh, higher than that, mister LBJ.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Yes, mister lbj's attorney, John Cowfer, comes to well, why
is he defending a murderer? The prosecution puts forth no motive.
Some people were saying, oh, Kinser was having an affair
with Malcolm Wes Wallace's ex Well Kinser was having an
(19:44):
affair with Josepha Johnson. That was lbj's wild and crazy sister.
Josepha Johnson was also having an affair with Mac Wallace.
You know, I know you don't like complicated stories, but
(20:05):
when the complications are the truth, this is how weird
it is.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Okay, just like complicated stories. I'm just my thing is
connecting dots that don't have well solid string. Now, if
this is true, it is interesting. I've never heard this before.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Yes, this there's a lot of dots and a lot
of strings.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
So both men were having an affair with Josipha Johnson,
who was a bit of a liability to LBJ because
she was, you know, in a time when women were
supposed to be demure.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
I don't think she'd wear pants yet in Texas at
the time.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Probably not well, not that she wore pants anyway. Even
if she could wear them, she wouldn't be wearing them. So,
whatever the motive was, some people were saying Kinser maybe
knew too much about the Johnson's or maybe he was
blackmailing LBJ. Whatever it is again, Broad Daylight Murder Jury
(21:08):
finds Mac Wallace guilty with malice a forethought. Eleven jurors
recommend the death penalty. One says, let's give him life
in prison. Okay, all right, do you agree with that verdict?
Speaker 3 (21:25):
Sounds like it from what you're telling me.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Yes, yeah, No, I mean they had evidence out the wazoo, witnesses, ballistics,
you know, the whole bit, no doubt. He just murdered
Kinser in cold blood. Well, Judge Charles Betts, he doesn't
like that. He overrules, the jury gives Wallace a five
(21:49):
year suspended sentence, and he's free to go. Okay, what
do you think of that.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
Little corruption, little bit connection going on there? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Yeah, this is Texas Justice lbjstyle. We are setting a
pattern where blatant murders blatant murderers. You're free to go,
have a nice day. Hope we didn't bother you with
this whole trial here for murdering someone. Okay, we now
have a blatant murder ruled as a suicide with no investigation,
(22:27):
and before that, ten years earlier, we have a blatant
murder with a five year suspended sentence. Okay, so why
don't we take our second break. I need to take
a deep breath, center my thoughts and then we'll finish this.
This is Hudson Riverradio dot com. This is Hudson River
(22:51):
Radio dot com. Welcome back. And perhaps I sound quite calm,
but I am actually kind of. Yes, yes, if you've
ever used a pressure cooker and there's you know, if
you put one of those little things on my head,
it would be releasing the steam in little bits right now,
(23:15):
ready to burst. All right, outrageous, absolutely outrageous.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
You agree, sounds like it?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Yep, yes, yes, okay, So what do we have here?
We have Sti's and LBJ are crooks. Marshall tries to
stop them, he ends up dead. The suspect is Mac Wallace,
who was sleeping with lbj's sister, So was his murder victim,
John Kinser, who gets off scot free with the help
(23:45):
of lbj's lawyer. And of course Marshall's death is considered
to be a suicide. But wait, there's more. Josifa Johnson,
the wild penciless sister of of LBJ, as I said,
quite the liability, Well, she was also a bit of
(24:07):
an alcoholic and she did have some health issues. But
suddenly Christmas of sixty one, she ends up dead. Well,
it must have been a cerebral hemorrhage. Why they say that,
I don't know. No autopsy, no nothing. Uh, she's dead.
That's it. She's out of the picture. Okay. Maybe it
(24:30):
was a cerebral hemorrhage. Maybe there was some extenuating circumstances.
Maybe LBJ got rid of another problem. I don't know.
I'm just throwing out out there that there's another another
suspicious death, or at least an une investigated death. Okay,
(24:51):
wouldn't a forty nine year old woman, wouldn't you conduct
an autopsy?
Speaker 1 (24:54):
I would have done the same for Marshall in the
beginning as well.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yes, yes, thank you.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
So, by nineteen sixty two, SD's schemes are and scams
are exposed. He's arrested, and just as the indictments are
coming out, Oh wait, there's another suspicious death. ST's chief accountant,
George Krtullik is found dead in his car. There is
(25:28):
a hose running from the exhaust pipe into the car.
What would you conclude.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
From the look of its suicide carbon monoxide?
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Yes, so that's what they say. Nothing to see here,
no need for an investigation. He committed suicide. By carbon
monoxide poisoning, except they did do an autopsy there was
absolutely no carbon monoxide in his blood or in his lungs.
Huh huh. So why is he sitting in a car
(25:59):
with the pipe, you know, the hose running? Isn't that suspicious?
What he does have is severe bruises and head injuries.
Might look like murder, but no, it must have been
a heart attack, because you would connect a hose to
(26:21):
your car, not turn it in, beat yourself up in
the head, and then die of a heart attack in
your car. Okay, m hm, suspicious A little bit, a
little bit, a little bit Okay, what are we ad?
Four bodies now? Marshall, Kinser, Josepha and Krtullik. Okay, interesting
(26:41):
how these people in Texas end up dead? Okay, we
need a We need a hero now, a living hero.
Enter the tough, smart Texas ranger Clint Peoples heard of him,
very famous Texas ranger. He he looks into Marshall's death
(27:01):
and reports to his superiors it would be utterly impossible
for mister Marshall to have taken his own life. He
gets them to exhume the body and the evidence is
going to be shown before the Robertson County Grand Jury.
They get Houston pathologist Joseph yehinchk I hope I'm pronouncing
(27:24):
in that right. Well, what's the first thing they find
in Marshall? That he did have carbon monoxide in his blood,
probably up to thirty percent. Now, fatal levels are over fifty,
but thirty percent is a lot. He's going to make
(27:47):
you groggy, may make you unconscious. There was no sign
of a hose going into his What did he do
He first tried to you know, he got himself carbon
monoxide poisoned before he then beat himself up and shot himself.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Was he standing behind his tractor for six hours just
breathing in the fumes.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Yeah, or maybe someone tried to kill him by carbon
monoxide first. Okay, so when they do the autopsy, remember
there were five shots. One of the shots went tore
right through his a order, that's pretty much instant death.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Yeah, that's it, that's it.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
You will be dead before you drop. But wait, he wrote,
reloaded the weapon, shot himself again through the lung, which
would have incapacitated him and killed him within seconds. But wait,
he then reloaded the bolt action. Remember this isn't an automatic,
you have to pull the bolt back reload shot him
(28:52):
through the liver, which would cause extremely heavy bleeding. Correct, yes,
you would probably be dead within seconds. But wait, he
shot himself two more times with this bolt action rifle.
So then he examined the head wound. The head wound
(29:14):
was so severe it would have knocked him unconscious. Okay,
So at what point did he knock himself unconscious before
he tried to poison himself with carbon monoxide and right
before he shot himself with three instantaneously fatal wounds plus
two others. It's just absolutely ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Even j Edgar Hoover, the very dubious head of the FBI,
then just a whole other ball of wax. He publicly said,
I just kind can't understand how anyone can fire five
shots at himself like that, because you can't. So slam dunk, right,
we are going to reverse the ridiculous find out of
(30:00):
suicide not so fast. In the grand jury, one member
was kind of strong arming the others and he was
very much thinking, oh yeah, this was a suicide. That
one man's name was Price Metcalf. Well, who was Price Metcalf?
(30:23):
You remember that sheriff's name, sheriff sheriff.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Hold on, let me find it, Sheriff Stagel.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Yes, guess who Price Metcalf was. Sheriff Stagel's son in law. Okay,
no conflict of interest here, none at all. So due
to uh Price Metcalf's strong arming, the statement came out,
considering all the evidence, we find it inconclusive to substantiate
(30:56):
a definite decision at this time or to overrule any
decision heretofore made. In other words, the verdict of suicide stands.
I'm waiting.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Yeah, that's a little pretty incredulous.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Yes, okay, again, we are setting the precedent for assassinating
a president. We are controlling. There was a there was
a federal judge involved in all this, trying to block
the investigate. There's a lot more to it. So it's
(31:37):
you know, clearly, you can control the courts, you can
control the judges, you can control the law enforcement, and
you can probably get people killed and get away with it,
in my opinion. So years past, Billy saul Estes goes
(31:59):
to jail, well not once, but twice. He gets out
and gets in trouble again and goes back JFK's assassinated.
LBJ becomes even more powerful as the president, and all
possible indictments of him just evaporate as soon as he's
sworn in, so all his troubles, or many of his
(32:20):
troubles are gone. Let's skip ahead twenty years nineteen eighty three.
ST's is out of prison. Remember Clint Peoples, the Texas Ranger.
He says, Billy, it's time for you to tell the truth. Says, okay,
now I'll do it. So in front of another Robertson
(32:41):
grand jury, County grand jury, which you know I have
little or no faith in, he testifies. And Okay, now
we know SD's is a lying, scam artist, but at
this point he's got nothing to lose. He's already been
in jail. Just about everybody involved is dead. But he says,
(33:03):
he testifies under oath, LBJ ordered Marshall's murder. He had
Cliff Carter, his aid, get mac Wallace to do it. Okay,
and remember that gas station attendant whose sketch it really
was the spitting image of mack Wallace. So it was
(33:25):
most likely mack Wallace who did it. And the plan
was to try to make it look like a suicide
with carbon monoxide poisoning. But Marshall was a big guy.
I think he was like six' to two. Something he
was a big. Guy he fought, back So wallace had
to shoot, him and In EST's, Words wallace sure did
(33:49):
botch it. Up but thanks to a corrupt legal system
and judges and the sheriff under, lbjsion it was ruled a. Suicide,
Okay so the grand jury decides to reject all of SD's,
testimony but all of the, other like the autopsy results are.
(34:15):
Out so they finally did reverse The marshal suicide verdict
twenty years later to a homicide by. Gunshot, however no
indictments were ever filed because by this POINT, Lbj Cliff,
carter And Mac wallace were all. Dead, now how Did
Mac wallace? Die you? Ask are you asking?
Speaker 3 (34:37):
THAT i am asking?
Speaker 2 (34:39):
That? Okay, well In january of nineteen seventy, one on a,
clear Dry texas, road he suddenly drove off the road
into a concrete abutment and he was found with massive head.
Injuries no autopsy because it was a simple single car
(34:59):
accident and supposedly and that was. It Clint peoples all,
right getting a little, interesting even more. Interesting june of
nineteen ninety, Two Clint people says he has a major
announcement in THE jfk, assassination and a few days before
(35:19):
the press, conference on a, clear Dry texas, road his
car suddenly went off the road and hit a telephone.
Pole single car, accident, tragedy but nothing to see here
except a woman came to his secretary a couple of
(35:40):
days later and said she saw a big red truck
come up Behind people's car and push him off the,
road essentially killing. Him but no one ever looked on
the back Of people's car to see if there was
an any signs of, being you, know another vehicle, pushing
(36:03):
so no investigation was. Made so he's he's killed in
the same Manner ala Mac. Wallace, okay so what was
this big announcement he was going to. Make, Now i'm
not sold on this, completely But Clint peoples was convinced
(36:26):
that we go back to the sixth floor of The
Texas School Book depository where Supposedly oswald had his sniper's
nest of. Boxes there had been some unidentified fingerprints on those. Boxes,
okay that's a that's a, Given and Supposedly wallace had
(36:47):
done some blind studies for two different fingerprint. Experts didn't
say who, this who they, were who they're and they
both of these fingerprint experts found a match to some
fingerprints that were obtained in a nineteen fifty one golf
(37:10):
club murder of Kinser Mac, wallace and both of them
said those were Mac wallace's. Fingerprints if, true Mac wallace's
fingerprints in the sniper's nest in the book. Depository, huh
let you all make your own conclusions with. THAT i
(37:34):
need to hear more about. This the one, expert Eh,
hoffmeister he, said, oh, yeah this is a match to this.
Guy and then when he finds out It's Mac wallace
and THE jfk. Assassination oh DID i say it was a? Match,
well it's not conclusive at, all you, know didn't want
any part of. It the other, Expert Nathan, darby said,
(37:57):
no it's a. Definite it's a definite. Match, Okay so
a lot of THINGS i threw at you. Tonight so,
basically people or under the influence of control OF lbj
were committing fraud and. Murder that's a, given all. Right
UNDER lbj and his, minions they were controlling, judges controlling law,
(38:22):
enforcement cover up of blatant murders in broad. Daylight sound.
Familiar there's numerous other. DEATHS i could go on all,
night but these are these are the you know Ones
i'm bringing up. Tonight so WHAT i see here is
a clear pattern, that in my, OPINION lbj was a
(38:45):
co conspirator in THE jfk assassination along with X cia
Chief Alan, dulles WHICH i haven't mentioned, before But dulles
was fired BY jfk and hated his guts and l
made him part of The Warren. COMMISSION i, mean right,
there what's up with?
Speaker 1 (39:05):
That?
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Okay maybe Mac wallace was a shooter from The Texas Schoolbook.
DEPOSITORY i don't. Know i'm throwing it out. THERE i
need to learn. More AND i Think Lee Harvey oswald
was exactly what he. Said he was a patsy who
didn't fire a. Shot they used pot power over highly
(39:28):
corrupt systems agencies to cover it. Up to, me the
only question left is just how many murders DID lbj
get away? With and, again in, conclusion This Henry marshall
case is setting the precedent for an assassination of the
president And i'm, done all.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Right, yeah a lot of pushpins and a lot of,
STRING i will give you.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
That, yes, Yes so if they could get away with the,
crap they did the blatant. Murders and it's just that
was the system that Was texas. Justice and what better
place to ASSASSINATE jfk than In texas where you are
(40:20):
controlling all the all the moving, parts and it was
the perfect place to do.
Speaker 3 (40:27):
It, okay all, right there's a lot to think about that.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Is, now were you aware of even half?
Speaker 3 (40:36):
This? No, no, yeah see.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
That's why you know a lot of skeptics who you,
know sticking To. Oswald oh well you bring up all
these you, know obscure. Things, yeah because they're the facts
of the, case and they're give you the. Background this
didn't Have THE jfk assassination wasn't a, sudden isolated you,
(41:02):
know it wasn't in a. Bubble it was in an
environment where you clearly could get away with.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Murder so saying we have a corrupt politician is not exactly,
groundbreaking no at, all you, Know and and favoritism and
bribery and follow the. Money that for me is always
number one is follow the. Money so, yeah, yeah. Follows you,
(41:31):
know it's to prove something like that it's one hundred
percent is almost. Impossible it's, well it could be, this
it could be it could be you, know and that's
where people latch on because they want to connect the.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
Dots but you.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Can certainly see this had been going on over and
over again with other with other.
Speaker 3 (41:53):
People so and.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
It's not going to be only In, texas you, know,
no no. Much of, course you're going to find corrupt,
up down and sideways.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Everywhere, yeah but this, degree this amount of, murders you,
know and LIKE i, SAID i just did a small
portion of. It SO i want to hear from. People
drop us a, line let us know what you think of,
this where you stand on. This there are other suspicious,
deaths shall we, say unsolved murders to talk. About if
(42:26):
you want to hear more in THE jfk assassination, realm
let me. Know AND i do want to recommend you
are the one who recommended to me The SOLVING jfk
podcast With Matt crumpton. Excellent, yeah, yeah. Lawyer he gives
you the. Facts he's Fabulous and if you really want
(42:48):
to go into the, WEEDS Jfk The Enduring secret With Jeff.
Crudell he's on episode two hundred and sixty. Four he
DID i think twelve episodes just On billy Sole. Estes
so that's how deep you can go into, this and
that's how deep people have. Gone And i'm resisting falling that.
(43:14):
Deep but clearly a case like, this IT'S i, mean
it's horrible for his, family his, friends and it took
twenty years to. Admit, yeah it's a blatant. Murder nobody
shoots themselves and with a bolt action rifle in the
(43:34):
aorta and then you, know fires more shots and the
bruises and the carbon. Monoxide my head almost blew off
And i'm, like, oh what's that doing? There what a?
Surprise so, yeah there we have. It so hopefully it
(43:55):
was somewhat. Persuasive it's you, KNOW i have never Said.
Oswald i've never said one hundred percent not there's a
lot to.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
It. Yeah my whole thing is even the MORE i,
learned connecting those things is not always. CONCRETE i don't
have my bulletin board, UP i don't have pictures, EVERYBODY
i don't have. STRINGS i don't remember everybody's name at.
Speaker 3 (44:20):
All you.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
Know, yeah as we've, Discussed i'm not as emotionally invested
in THE jfk case as you.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
Are well to, me it's so, yeah it's so important
because it was a coupdetas it, WAS i, believe a
vice president and underlings killing a president of The United
states to take, over and The Vietnam war then escalated as.
Speaker 3 (44:45):
A, result were.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
Escalated and we also got The Civil Rights act in
nineteen sixty, four so we could go back and.
Speaker 3 (44:52):
Forth oh well.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
Yeah ALSO lbj likely could have just waited for THE
jfk second term and stepped into.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
The presidency, Too so why put yourself out there.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
Because he was about to get indicted for all this
other crap that was, calling but.
Speaker 3 (45:12):
He took care of that with that, corruption right.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
That, yeah well follow the, money, yes and the Famous
latin term. Quibono who benefits most From lbj's, ASSASSINATION i
mean FROM jfk ASSASSINATION, Lbj no two ways about. It
so we could argue all.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
ALONG i THINK i think absolutely you're the.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Expert, yeah LIKE i, said the devil's in the, details
and there's. PLENTY i could get you a case of
pushpins and string and a bolt and, board and we
could spend two weeks connecting all the. Dots BUT i
wanted to put this out there for listeners who may
not be familiar with this case and who maybe now are,
(46:01):
saying oh my, god holy, crap this you know this
went on and maybe be LIKE i, said the experts SOLVING.
JFK jfk the enduring. Secret there's a book Called Choke
holds By JIM. D eugenio and some other, experts which
that's basically the points you cannot get past if you
(46:26):
Think oswald just did it. Alone so there's a lot
of good material out. There i'm not holding my breath
that anything comes out of THESE jfk. Documents it didn't
tell no so. FAR i, mean there's so many. Pages
but you, know DO i really THINK lbj wrote a
memo KILLED, jfk you, know and put it filed it
(46:48):
in the. System, no but there may be some little
tidbits in, there so so we shall. See so let
let us. KNOW i concert do more of.
Speaker 3 (47:01):
These, yeah it sounds like you have a whole lot
ready to. Go so, yeah it's. Interesting it's.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
Right it does show the level of nonsense that goes
on behind the. Scenes, yeah when people are in, power,
yep and it's a level of selfishness THAT i just
can't wrap my head.
Speaker 3 (47:20):
Around, yeah with these kinds of.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Things anything to stay in, Power, yeah and avoid.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
Prison, yeah that's all.
Speaker 3 (47:29):
Right you want to.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
Take us out since you've scrambled our brain so much, today.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
All, right all, right, well all, RIGHT i need to
calm down, now so hopefully you will all join us
next time For murder in The Hudson. Valley if you
are not, assassinated.
Speaker 3 (47:47):
This Is Hudson River radio dot. Com
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