Jxmie Blake on Rule-Breaking, Risk-Taking, and Decision-Making

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Jamie, welcome to the show.
Good to have you.
Brian, thanks for having me.
Good to be here.
Yeah, man, I'm very excited to talk to you.
We got to meet in person in Pasadena, which was fun for me.
First, thanks for coming out.
That was really cool to see you there.
I think you added a nice energy to the room.
And I was looking forward to meeting you, talking to you at some point in the futureanyway, just because I follow your work and I love what you do.

(00:27):
So it's great to have you and spend some time.
Thanks man, likewise.
It's always good to connect with, you know, Ableton community names and faces you'refamiliar with and get to connect in person.
So, it's great to meet you.
Yeah, you too, man.
It was a lot of fun being there in California at the Ableton headquarters where you werethere, Chuck was there, Alberto and various other people just kind of showing up

(00:56):
throughout the day, throughout the weekend.
It's so nice to be around that.
And because this gets kind of solitary sometimes, you're just in front of your computermaking music used to be with people and now you can do it all by yourself.
It's nice to have that.
for sure.
it's like, you know, it's pros and cons.
We've never been more connected or maybe more in isolation.

(01:20):
You know, it's possible to connect with people all over the world, but you know, it's notnecessarily like a substitute for in in person sharing and conversation.
And you almost pick up a lot even just from what's not said, just being in a room andwitnessing things.

(01:41):
Yeah.
That happened like crazy that weekend for me.
Chuck was there a couple days and just like kind of watching him work.
Like, okay, he's got something going on there.
And it was a lot of fun to just pick up on his energy.
And I think he said he came too, just because other people were working and he wanted tobe around that.

(02:03):
And kind of like when you go to like a coffee shop or something.
to like do your work because other people are working.
Man, that is kind of a genius idea.
If Ableton had a coffee shop, where the whole point was you drink coffee and you work onmusic, hang with people.
They practically do, because there's that coffee shop right underneath it.

(02:24):
So...
Uh-huh.
comes out in the evenings.
Yep.
Yep, for sure.
So I gotta tell you, I've since we saw each other had a chance to really dive into yourpush course, the shapes and progressions.
And it's fantastic.

(02:45):
It's first of all, just as like a teacher as well, I thought just genius idea to have thevideos inside of live and have those midi clips that you're playing in real time in the
video lighting up my push.
so I can follow along with you and see what you're doing both on the screen and on pushand just kind of play along with you.

(03:08):
Just such a great delivery.
And it's really made me see playing it as an instrument a little bit differently, maybejust a little deeper even than I already felt about it.
Because for me, it looks like a guitar fretboard mostly.
And to see you go over it and talk about all the inversions and different shapes you canuse was...

(03:30):
Great exercise, great practice.
Fantastic job on that.
Thank you, yeah, I appreciate that and appreciate you checking it out.
That was a pretty grueling, know, labor of love kind of thing at times where it took a lotof retakes and then a lot of, oh, what if I did this?
I could add this and...

(03:51):
I really think over the years I've been teaching music production and songwriting andplaying instruments from kids as young as eight up to now I teach young adults and a lot
of high profile CEOs, celebrities and everything in between.
Honestly that class was a culmination of all of my experiences teaching and demonstratingan instrument that changed how I approach music.

(04:22):
I never took piano lessons.
I did like one independent study for a couple months like during community college Butpush was really a thing that just kind of clicked and the more I put time into it It's
like a direct relationship of how much I improved so to be able to share that withStudents who you know are younger and maybe don't learn or don't have an interest in

(04:48):
learning like from traditional instruments all the way
up to you know CEOs of billion dollar companies who don't have the time to sit down andlearn piano but they love push and they love Ableton and they want to play chords and that
group of people exists out there and I feel really fortunate to be able to connect with somany people who want to express themselves and want to participate really in music and

(05:16):
never felt like they had access to the tools or to the instrument that could allow
them to express themselves.
That's an awesome crowd to tap into because I count myself as part of that, especially asa kid.
I didn't play in high school band.
didn't, you know, wasn't interested, didn't see myself as a musician or anything.

(05:40):
I enjoyed music, but it wasn't until like a friend showed me a song on guitar, EnterSandman by Metallica.
And it was like, wow, you can play the stuff you like to listen to because
The only music I ever saw getting played was in band with kids that I knew my age that hadto play these old songs we didn't even know or we weren't listening to classical music.

(06:03):
So it didn't have any appeal.
But once I got into guitar, it was everything.
But there was no outlet from the school other than we had a talent show once a year.
And that was the big thing for our band.
Like we got to make the talent show.
represent those people because there are a lot and especially probably even more so nowbecause of all the like people that are into like making hip-hop and beats and other kinds

(06:32):
of music besides just rock and roll that wasn't available to kids in band.
It's really cool you're doing that because you're opening the door to so many people thatmight fall in love with it.
end.
I mean music has come a long ways over history.
It wasn't always as accessible to everyone.

(06:53):
I mean we've been telling stories with melodies for as long as we've existed.
But in terms of like where it's come from since civilization has evolved, we're now at apoint where to make something that sounds comparable, both mix-wise, production quality,
recording quality, I mean you could do it at home.

(07:16):
do do it at home and we had the bedroom producer kind of explosion thing happen and we hadyoung people using FL you know that they just downloaded crack copy of and or use garage
band off their parents computer and boom like that's that's all it takes so there's kindof this at least from my perspective a lot of people who have a great year this is usually

(07:42):
the case where people's taste in their ear for music is
more advanced than their technical abilities and that's kind of where the friction occursa lot of times.
As people want to participate with music, the tools are accessible, you have them, you cangrab loops and then...
For a lot of people, there's this wall of, okay, but it's not exactly what I'm trying tosay.

(08:06):
This is not exactly how I feel.
Because we're stuck with the choices that have been made.
The loops that are included, the splice packs that are available, versus understanding thelanguage of music and being able to actually articulate anything and then say, whoa,
that's exactly what I'm feeling at this moment and it came from me.

(08:26):
And that's a really powerful thing.
something that most people sit down and go how exciting I want to learn music theory butit's something that when you make the connection of this is a path to more creative
freedom and freedom of expression that can and has helped in the past get people to starton that journey yeah

(08:54):
Yeah, it's like the on-ramp to that highway is way more accessible.
Like playing guitar, it took a while to get going, you know?
Like your fingers hurt and you don't know anything about music and beats and rhythms andchords or anything.
So it was a little bit of a slow start, but now, like you said, you can really just likeopen up.

(09:21):
something like GarageBand drag some loops in it and it sounds like pretty comparable towhat you hear streaming on Spotify, on the radio or whatever, wherever you get your music.
It just wasn't like that not too long ago.
No, it's relatively fresh.
It's kind of like we went through this whirlwind of evolution and technological changesand we looked up and here we are.

(09:47):
You know, we have stem separation and 50 different companies supplying us tools to dothings that were just a dream.
You know, I'm sure when you and I were first stepping into music production.
Yeah, I have all my dreams come true from those days when I wish I could play the drums intime.

(10:08):
I wish I could sing in tune.
I wish the recording quality was better.
Now we have everything and a million and one tools to do it.
And now that's actually the problem now, I think.
There's just too much that we have.
Well yeah, and then you realize that even with everything, if you're still not happy withwhat you're making, might be something to do with your outlook or your expectations or

(10:32):
your honesty with yourself, you know, kind of flips back inwards.
Yeah, how many times I've thought I was buying something that was gonna answer all myproblems and well now I'll make my hits and now my music will be exactly how I want it to
be.
Only to find out that's not true.
And it's like, you know, it's a relationship with that, because it is inspiring and it isuseful if it saves you time, if it makes something better objectively, or it's fun.

(11:03):
It engages you.
But yeah, I've bought and sold way more pieces of music gear than I actually have heldonto and used today.
Yeah.
And that's in a way, part of the challenge too.
I bought a lot of like garbage gear, garbage guitar pedals or like stupid recorders backin the old days that you were stuck with.

(11:29):
Once you, once you open the package, you were stuck.
I mean, now you just send it back to Amazon.
They'll take anything really, or, you know, most music stores will be happy to takeanything you buy, but, it
I did learn my gear maybe a little deeper in those days because that's what I had and Ihad to figure out how to make it work.

(11:51):
And that, man, I'm glad that she brought that up because a lot of work I've been doing,especially over the last year, developing tools inside of Ableton and working with Ableton
on some of the factory stuff, some of the presets, and just kind of giving my input andsharing things based on.

(12:13):
feedback or time consuming things or confusing things for new users as well as wishes fromreally high level established users and that's something that
think it's easy to overlook the power of like all stock devices or just really gettinginto whatever it is that you have.

(12:35):
That's how you get people like Tom Morello and the things he did with a guitar.
It's the same things that a lot of other guitar players had, but he got somethingdifferent out of it.
Or like McGee, he's like a newer artist.
Same thing where he's getting tones and textures that...
It's the same tools everyone else has, but it's like how you use those tools.

(12:58):
And then you learn about, you know, producers and, know, I've had friends show me patchesthat were all stock and you just wouldn't really believe it.
And we get this idea in our head.
Maybe it's cause it's, you know, the type of
Western culture, capitalist mindset that we're kind of all brought up in, at least in theWest, where something costs money or it's expensive or looks a certain way.

(13:22):
So therefore it must be worth that versus like, it's almost a mindset of like, we haveTaco Bell at home, you know, where you could make it in stock.
It's not like exciting all the time and it takes effort.
But yeah, there's a lot of value to that because you extract core processes and ideas thattranslate.

(13:44):
And I think the process of troubleshooting and creative problem solving is super valuablein any situation, whether you're music or content, video, writing, recording, it's, yeah.
Yeah, not having the gear or the tools is not an excuse anymore because you've got morethan anyone's ever had with GarageBand, with even an iPhone.

(14:13):
It's just already there.
There's plenty.
I've said this on this show before where, you know, when I first got a computer to makemusic, I got real good at cracking software.
you know, suddenly I'm I know all the dark
corners of the internet and had all these like flashy tools with you know really coolgraphics and looked like a different spaceship every time you open a new plug-in but I

(14:42):
didn't know how to use any of it and one of the best things I did for my own music makingwas just get rid of it and just learn what was in live.
I was like I'm just gonna learn the stock stuff because what business do I have with allthis other stuff if I don't even know how to use the basic things yet.
And that's when I finally started really progressing and making noticeable progress.

(15:05):
Yeah, and I think it's empowering too.
It's like a confidence building thing.
There's maybe early on, especially if looking under the hood of, you know, complicatedinstrument racks isn't like interesting to you naturally.
I think you can get there just by building some confidence and just one at a time, justreally slowly keeping that signal flow mindset kind of there.

(15:32):
And Ableton lends itself, I think what makes it unique is it lends itself to people whoare very mathematical and logical thinking, but also just wildly creative, know, the
opposite end of the spectrum.
And there's kind of this intersection where you can use systems and signal flow andmodulation and routing in really creative ways and create things that are only possible

(15:59):
through that medium.
Were you saying you were working on some of that material, like some of the presets andstuff that's coming with...
Were you working with Ableton themselves or just did you mean just kind of like in yourown experiments?
Yeah, yeah, so it started, well, let's see, maybe two years ago.

(16:25):
I had some time to recover on the couch because I broke a couple of toes and had to takeit easy.
So I got into developing Max patches and going crazy with.
push three standalone compatible racks and it had been requested from a producer who I wasworking with to, he's like, I just want some crazy, give me some insane presets that

(16:50):
nobody has.
And I found myself with the time and I just spent like the better part of, I don't know,five or six months just going.
you know, diving deeper than I ever had into making racks, making, you know, presets, andthen getting back into Macs.
I hired a fantastic Mac certified trainer, Philip Meyer.

(17:12):
He's a guy in LA.
yeah I know of his work.
He did, we should shout out the pack he's got.
MiniTools, right.
Philip Meyer MIDI tools.
Yeah, shout out Philip.
Yeah, and he just saved me a lot of time, know, few hours with him and getting some notesfrom him helped me kind of fast track some of the things I was just working on.

(17:37):
And so flash forward, I don't know, you six months into doing this and I met, you know,one of the heads of the sound team from the Berlin.
He was here for NAMM.
I was hanging with Jesse.
He was showing me something.
Well, he's actually showing me Move.
We can talk about it now.
He brought by the Move to show me and I met another gentleman from the Berlin team.

(18:01):
And then we just stayed in touch and I hit him up for lunch when I was in Berlin.
I was shooting a video.
My partner, Nikeana, did a Push 3 performance.
So we're over there to film and I reached back out to the guy from the sound team andsaid, hey, I'm around.
And then we ended up
getting into this long session with some of the sound team in Berlin.

(18:23):
A few more of the people came out and testing out some new stuff for them while we werethere and giving some feedback and just showing them a lot of these racks that I was
making for people here in LA and showing them some of these max devices and some of it wasemulating and reverse engineering a little bit on my part of a very beloved sound of a

(18:44):
clipper in a certain B.A.W.
and trying to bring that into live.
So long story short, they were excited about everything that I showed them and we kind ofjust kept in touch and then that turned into doing some, you know, work, you know, of
various degrees on some of the factory library content.

(19:09):
Yeah.
That's cool.
So I hear that a bit from people.
They start going into their own experiments.
And it seems to be a way, I think, of strength of Ableton as a company.
They listen.
They pay attention.
And they're watching what users are doing.
And they see your work and they're like, that's cool.

(19:30):
Maybe we can get you to make some stuff for us.
Yeah, and I feel like I kind of have a responsibility in being in a position where, youknow, I work with hundreds of young people who are...
maybe just starting out in Ableton, coming from other DAWs or just getting into productionin the first place and seeing kind of the common hangups or the common trends and what's

(19:58):
difficult or what's flat out unappealing, combined with working with Grammy award winningproducers and artists who have their own wants and needs and ways of doing things inside
of Ableton.
So being able to kind of fuse
what I'm seeing and what's in demand from new users as well as people who have been usingit at a professional level, a high level.

(20:26):
yeah, just felt responsible to share.
Yeah.
Yeah, you're helping shape it and shaping how it's getting used and how people interactwith it.
Because there is like a suggestion in a lot of these devices of like what to use, how tooperate it, even if as simple as like which macros you choose, which knobs you allow

(20:53):
people to turn and the limitations you put on them.
I think a great example that people would be familiar with is just auto-tune.
Yeah.
they allowed you to tune it to zero milliseconds so that you get that really steppedquantized voice thing that has become a real, you know, just, I don't know, it's

(21:15):
everywhere, right?
Like, it's been in so much music for so long, but the original program was kind of like, Idon't think anyone would want to do that.
We're trying to use auto-tune to make it sound like a natural singer's singing in tune.
And then stuff like that.
Because of that,
kind of permission to go to that extreme, get surprises along the way.

(21:38):
sure yeah also shout out to Auto Shift I've been loving using Auto Shift
Yes, Ableton Live users had to wait probably about as long as any other DAW to get anauto-tune device in there, but it's really put together nicely and it's useful.

(22:00):
It's got the live performance thing that Ableton was built on in it so that you can useit.
you can use it on push three to me that's crazy it's like you have a portable auto tuneyeah

(22:20):
Plug the mic in and there you go.
Yeah.
Yeah, I've made a rack that people can download, meant for live vocals, and it's gotharmonies, because it's just a stack of them, chains of them together, and they're
separated by fifths and thirds and an octave, I think, of the harmonies.

(22:43):
But it's just so fun, because you got a knob, you turn the volume up on it, and then yourharmony comes in.
It's unreal.
No, it's inspiring.
For sure.
Yeah, it makes you do things you just wouldn't normally do.
Yeah, and I think having a healthy dose of that helps keep music making interesting andfun.

(23:09):
versus if you did the exact same thing.
I mean, even if like you ate chocolate cake and it's like your favorite thing in theworld, but you had the exact same thing every single day, the same way, the same amount.
I don't know, to me, maybe there's some people out there who would love that, but I feellike at a certain point you gotta switch it up.
You gotta try something different.

(23:31):
Maybe chocolate mix or something.
Maybe a totally different flavor, but.
Yeah, having that balance of like keeping some parts of your process or your creativeworkflow consistent in the same, but then also maintaining a consistency in something new,
something different, something unexpected, because that feels fun and it reduces theamount of like decisions you feel like you have to make.

(24:02):
Yeah, I've got myself set up pretty nice here where I'm comfortable.
I know where things are.
I know what's plugged in where and it's fast.
I've got templates and devices that connect things that really do smooth out the process.
And if I want to run something through like one of these guitar pedals next to me, it's anexternal device.

(24:22):
It's already programmed.
Just drop it in and you're going.
But sometimes it's nice to just mix it all up.
you know, even just take the laptop, maybe like a MIDI controller and go somewhere where Idon't have access to all this stuff.
Or even to just every once in a while, you just rearrange your studio and that just getsyou thinking differently.

(24:47):
But a little bit of a novelty goes a long way.
Sometimes it's just like, just don't want to be in, I'm in a basement right now.
So, you know, it's cool.
It's like a little.
cave almost, but sometimes you don't want to be in the cave.
You want to get out a little bit.
And I find those are usually really productive sessions.

(25:10):
The mind is just operating differently.
yeah, I even at one point, because I had never done this maybe the first seven or eightyears of producing on a laptop and using Ableton, but I just started like making beats in
bed.
Because I wake up so early sometimes, like five o'clock, six o'clock, just I don't knowwhy.

(25:34):
My body tells me it's time to get up.
And some mornings, you know, I'll just make a little coffee and then just lay back downwith the laptop, put headphones on, and just try to make some.
And not really worry too much about.
putting it in a box or that it needs to be some certain thing.
man, just like you said, like I would get really great results with that because there'sno pressure.

(26:00):
I'm still kind of tired.
I'm not really emotionally attached.
I just feel awake and ready to go.
you know, it's, I don't know, something about being in bed still, there's still this senseof relaxation.
And so it's like I'm creating in a relaxing way.
But yeah.

(26:22):
Yeah, I think you just said something important worth highlighting is like, it doesn'thave to be anything.
Sometimes when you sit down in your seat with the equilateral triangle of speakers in yourhead and you're in your mixing spot and you're now I'm doing it, you know, and I'm
producing music, capital letters, you know, but a lot of fun things happen when you'rejust fooling around playing and there's no actual goal.

(26:50):
You're just
seeing what happens.
And I think for people who are independent artists or working by themselves or working intheir home spaces, that's a beautiful place to be in because you can be uninhibited and
allow yourself the freedom to go through and try all ideas and not worry about what'sgoing to be great and then just recognize something great when it comes along.

(27:20):
versus you're only waiting till you're inspired or you're only gonna finish something thatyou love right away.
Because I've seen that and experienced that plenty of times where that's what stops youfrom creating.
You're kind of lying to yourself in a way, you're not being honest with yourself.

(27:40):
Because we have a lot of ideas inside of us and not all of them are gonna resonate with usthe most.
To me it's more valuable to get the idea out and just let it live and breathe versusstopping when it's not the idea you were hoping for.

(28:01):
Hmm.
Yeah, right, because you can easily miss something really cool.
There's this like kind of alternate path, but you're like, well, it's not going to get mewhere it's not going to get me to that like particular genre I'm working in or move my
project forward.
But you get the surprises.

(28:21):
Yep.
You kind of mentioned this before we started.
You mentioned like in your classes.
What classes do you teach, by the way?
So I've been teaching, I've been in LA now just last four years after being in Seattle,eight years or so before that.

(28:42):
And about a month after I moved here, was teaching at a school remotely during COVID, camedown when everything opened up and I got a call from someone at Ableton asking if I was
familiar with 1500 or nothing.
And I was like, yeah, of course, and it was.
Their last teacher was moving on to something else and they needed someone to come teachproduction and engineering and mixing and songwriting.

(29:12):
Well, a couple other classes as well.
so, yeah, I started about a month after I moved here and, you know, to work at a school,teach at a school that was founded by two people I've looked up to for a long time, know,
Rand Stopson and James Fauntleroy.
And yeah, just seeing them present at loop was the first time I heard them speak outsideof just hearing the music that they've made.

(29:40):
Their school definitely echoes a lot of the same sentiments that the crowd walked awayfrom when I saw them speak back in like 2018.
But long story short, at 1500 Sound Academy, I teach production.
So that's all Ableton, music theory.
Engineering so we record and Pro Tools mostly just recording vocals tuning vocals editingvocals and then songwriting and mixing Yeah

(30:11):
That's a pretty wide range of topics too.
That's cool.
Yeah, for sure.
So you were mentioning that a lot of the discussions, even though you're in the studio,even though you got the gear, wind up getting back to things like creativity and workflow

(30:34):
and process and not so much the technical aspects.
Yeah, I mean, it's, if it's not 50-50, it's, you know, it's pretty close, but, you know, alot of times people, students who I work with, they'll get writer's block or they'll have
a bunch of songs and perpetually continue revising them, you know.

(31:00):
people are at different points in their path.
And that's how I've started kind of looking at it over time is not so much that people areinherently better or worse or their music's more successful than theirs isn't, but it's
almost always correlated with the journey.
And some people are able to take the journey and the path of putting the time in to learnproduction and arrangement and songwriting.

(31:30):
and recording and you know getting those those 10,000 hours in but sometimes people willspend 10,000 hours in using bad practices or or not being honest with themselves or
something, some blockage in the way, preventing them from being completely open and honestabout what their expectations are and what is needed to be done, you know, in terms of

(32:00):
time spent on the court, you know, getting in gym and putting the hours in just to get towhere they want to go.
Yeah, and with that is life is always happening all around us.
And for any of us musicians, we're people.

(32:21):
We're sons and daughters and members of communities.
And all of that always plays into people's ability to create.
people's attitudes towards creating.
Some people use it as a form of escape.
Some people use it as therapy.

(32:42):
Some people just want to be recognized.
Some people want to make a lot of money.
Some people want to, most people, the common thread is they want to express themselves andshare something that will make other people feel like they're not alone.
Because ultimately that's what music does for all of us that makes it meaningful and givesit meaning.

(33:05):
You know, we have songs that...
indicate times in our lives or play certain roles to the soundtracks of our lives.
It's an extremely powerful thing.
Whatever we can do to help people with whatever that is.
Sometimes it's a technical question and other times it's a mindset thing.

(33:28):
Other times it's a metaphysical, spiritual, emotional, philosophical thing.
But I think for me, and I'm not the wisest person, I'm not the most experienced, but a lotof the times it's ourselves getting in our own ways to an extent.

(33:52):
Obviously there's external factors that we can't control, but a lot of the time it'ssomething to do with our mindset or us getting in our own way to some degree.
Yeah.
I think when I was first starting out it was a lot more technical stuff.

(34:13):
How do I do this?
How do I connect this audio track?
How do I record?
You know, that kind of stuff.
How do I play the guitar even?
All of that.
But as I've gotten further along my problems definitely are more these mental, creative,judgmental.

(34:36):
All of that stuff is, I don't know if it's that you're so distracted by learning the newthings, the technical things, the how to play and how to use the software or whatever it
is, that you don't realize you're having these things because you kind of, as you'relearning like, this is how you like create like a MIDI part, cool.
And then you made something and you weren't even worried about if it was good, you werejust trying to make something.

(35:01):
But then once you have that,
It's like, okay, now I can really only focus on what I'm making in the process.
And I don't know, it just blows my mind that that's so hard.
And I can think back to being younger and like, you know, I just pumped stuff out anddidn't even think twice sometimes.

(35:24):
And now here we are.
And I have so much better off in so many levels and crippled.
No, yeah.
Yeah, there's kind of a beautiful stage in the journey where you haven't learned a bunchof rules yet.
Because we get these boxes and frameworks the more that you learn about things.

(35:49):
And that to me is what it means to learn the rules to break the rules is when you'restarting out, you're inherently breaking rules because you don't care.
But we got so many amazing production aesthetics and techniques that people still usetoday because of that.
And because of that, you know, not knowing that that's not what you're supposed to do.

(36:12):
and just going off of the pure instinct of, does it sound good?
to me, get, I'm at a point now where I've, you know, my undergrad was in audioengineering, have a master's in music and music production, and I've spent a lot of time
doing everything related to the creative process, you know, recording, writing, mixing,producing, performing.

(36:38):
And...
it's something that
Sorry about that.
Can you still hear me okay?
Sorry if you gotta do a pause in the edit right here I might have just jolted it a littlebit.
Yeah, it's all good, but I could do that.
Yeah, are you making a note?

(36:59):
Sorry.
Perfect, What was the very last thing I was saying?
All while you're going about like you've learned so much, so many different aspects ofthis.
okay, right.
Did I think...
after feeling like, okay, this is how I'm supposed to record vocals or how I'm supposed toarrange a record or how I'm supposed to layer things and mix things if I want, you know,

(37:30):
this certain outcome.
And it kind of feels stifling at times and it can lock you into, I guess, habits that canbe healthy to break out of from time to time.
Because as soon as the process begins feeling mundane or like it's just
a repeat of the last hundred times that you did it, I think that reflects in your workwhether or not you're consciously aware of it.

(38:00):
having some element of keeping it fresh and breaking the rules and doing things thatyou're not supposed to do, having learned where the boundaries are and how things ought to
be done, I get so much inspiration off of like...
people like Mr.
Bill when I found his channel or go listening to like Dan Warrell about like the absolutemathematical textbook of like how something is and that's beautiful.

(38:29):
But then I'll take something he says and turn around and go just do something crazy withit, you know, because that's exciting to me, you know, just phase canceling things and
extracting artifacts and, and it might be a texture and it's 2 % of the overall sonicmakeup.
something I'm working on but it was the starting point you know or it was the thing thatmade an idea come about and to me it's that that process of you kind of feel like I

(39:00):
shouldn't be doing this like one time I put like 10 utilities in a row all turned up plus35 DB to just extract you know it's like a mr.
Bill trick like at the end of it and I remember doing that I was like that is so rad like
but you're not supposed to do this.
So then I went on this whole rampage and I'm like, I'm gonna take the metronome sound, theoriginal classic one and make every instrument out of it.

(39:24):
Awesome.
I'm gonna introduce feedback and resample that and turn that into a bass.
Awesome.
And it just kind of opens up.
source material and possibilities that you wouldn't get to necessarily had you notunderstood the rules and then intentionally manipulated or broken them in a way that, you

(39:45):
know, hopefully doesn't cause hearing damage and did something creative with it, you know.
And something about that is fun.
I don't know.
Yeah, it's almost rebellious.
It's so easy to do, I guess, now.
I couldn't string together 35 distortion pedals because I don't have 35 distortion pedals,but I can do that with devices in the computer and just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and

(40:13):
see what happens and get the problems that actually are the solution, the fun thingthat...
sparks the idea.
I guess for me it's so much in like just sampling things and running them through effectsand really recklessly, fast too.

(40:38):
I'm working on a, I've got a kalimba, I'm working on a pack of sounds with a kalimba andyou know it's like the first couple I'd sample them nice and make a nice kalimba
instrument cool.
And I ran them through my cassette tape player and I'm like, all right, that's kind ofcool.
It's not as good technically as the clean ones.
It's a little bit distorted and sometimes it almost sounds like a square wave.

(41:01):
But then it's like, all right, now I'm just going to like throw like five random pluginson and just see what happens.
And then I'm going to warp it as far as it goes.
You like you drag that warp marker and the screen is scrolling and scrolling and then itfinally stops.
And it's like, cool.
Got it.
And just consolidate that.

(41:22):
And then you put that in the sample and you're like, wow, like this was a kalimba a minuteago and now it's like an asteroid belt of sound.
And then so often I'm not making my instruments anymore.
I'm like, okay, now I'm making a song and you just get like pulled into it.
For sure, for sure.

(41:45):
I think for me, I really try to notice, especially lately, just, hey, I got excited, soI'm going there.
You know, instead of like, because I think sometimes I get responsible.
I'm like, well, that was cool, but you know, I've to finish this thing.
You know, I'm barking on something here.

(42:05):
But now it's just like, nah, just get on the spaceship and go.
reckless kalimba.
Forget responsibility.
We want reckless kalimbas.
Yeah, and that was really the goal.
I'm sure there's kalimba instruments out there.
I'm not creating something that's never been...
I mean, the thing exists to begin with.

(42:28):
that's the starting point, I guess.
I'm going to build an instrument and then I'm going to get more and more progressivelyweird and crazy with the samples and with the sounds until we're just not even in the same
universe anymore.
Yeah, I think my contribution to the recklessness of instrument and device making, I madethis thing recently called, I'm calling it a sample recycler.

(43:00):
I was reading in the live object model like a year ago, and it was probably put in therebefore then, but you have access to a lot of the parameters, the warp parameters inside of
Simpler.
So like slice by, the region length, transient sensitivity, all that stuff.
The warp mode, the warp parameters.
And I was like, hmm, what if you could modulate like, okay, two beats, it's, you know.

(43:27):
sliced by training to be sliced by region wow i could do that with this device so i madethis thing and
I've just blown away by the results I keep getting, because I'll drag the most uninspiringloop from 10 years ago that's just super boring into this thing.
And without fail, I can get something that's just interesting and that I want to workwith.

(43:53):
And that it has the aesthetic of being a sample chop, but it's...
unlike any sample chopping method I've tried or seen because it's only possible throughthis method.
And yeah, it's been a lot of fun.
Like I've probably burned two or three hours like in a row just throwing loops into thisthing and I just kept re-sampling and you know saving all of them.

(44:21):
yeah, that recklessness, you know.
Yeah.
Yeah, not thinking too hard, just twisting knobs, playing the sound, recording it, messingit, doing it again if you want.
So your sample recycler is modulating like those warp parameters, like the grain, theflux, those types of things.

(44:49):
Is that what you're talking about?
as well as the slice by like you could have it be like modulating between region transientand whatever the other one was beat yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so or you can even just drag
in like quarter notes just playing from c1 and just play quarter notes and then justchange the modulation and it's wild even just like

(45:18):
using the transient sensitivity and modulating that.
know, modulating that and just kind of dialing it into where, ooh, right there, I likewhat it's doing because on a three minute sample, I mean, it's cutting from wildly like
different points throughout the song and modulating and you could make it snap like in asquare type of step or make it kind of smooth.

(45:41):
So, yeah, there's so many different textures, but then somehow, because if you just havesimple MIDI playing it on beat, you still get this.
implied pulse underneath even if the rhythms that are being triggered don't make senselike in a vacuum but played together you get this thing that it makes sense you can make

(46:02):
it make sense yeah yeah yeah yeah
That's interesting.
And I guess those are parameters that when they were making simpler, they're like, well,no one would want to really play with these in real time.
sure they would.
dreaming about that for years.

(46:23):
Yeah, well that was like kind of a new one with the war parameters that you can now playwith those and modulate them because in my class that I teach for Berklee Online, it's a
sampling class so one of the things, one of the techniques is resample and then playaround with those sliders while you're recording because that's the only way you could get

(46:48):
the output of that.
Yeah.
because it doesn't get recorded as automation.
So a lot of our class was just turn these things and knobs and sliders that you can'tmodulate while you're recording it and then just see what you get.
And it's got that recklessness, that playfulness where you're gonna, what you get is whatyou got.

(47:09):
And now what?
That's where it gets fun.
Now what are you gonna do?
Well, there's a magic in not being able to go back and keep re-tweaking the source.
And if you have like a generative thing happening like that, like you're generatingchanges and it's not captured in any way other than if you re-sampled it, there's some

(47:30):
really magical things that happen.
And then you're confined to that in that form.
And to me, it's like, because it takes more options and...
Decisions possible decisions out of the equation it forces you forward you're like, okay.
Well, this is what it is I can't change the patch I can't you know go back and Change amillion things the many the velocity all the things we can change.

(47:55):
I just got to move forward and we almost get Decision fatigue a lot and in our dailylives, you know, we
we're very privileged you know to to live in a place where you can decide what you want toeat you can decide what do want to watch what do i want to do we have so many choices what
am i going to wear and

(48:17):
that's overwhelming.
It takes a lot of energy to do that.
with music, I think it's one of the most valuable, almost starting to get lost elements ofthe process is prior to computers, you had to just dial things in and commit to what it
was.
I mean, you could recall sessions and take notes and pictures, but it wasn't as like,yeah, we'll just figure it out later.

(48:42):
It's like, no, no,
we're dialed in, we're all present, we're focused, how do we feel about this EQ, thiscompression, whatever, and you're committing and moving on versus, yeah, the endless
cycles we can go through of never-ending tweaks.
Yeah, because you tweak one thing and then you realize the thing you did before now needsto be fixed so it fits again.

(49:06):
And then you keep going in these circles where you're just endlessly trying to makeeverything fit together and never moving forward.
Yeah.
No, exactly.
Yeah, blasting it down and just moving.
It's more fun.
It's more like being on a roller coaster or something.

(49:29):
You just, you gotta react to what happens.
for sure.
I think it forces you to be present.
It doesn't become a autopilot type of thing, because you're going to miss something.
You have to pay attention.
Oh, that was tight.
And stop it and go back.
Oh, that two bar's right there.

(49:49):
Something weird happened, but it was awesome.
And make things around that.
Yeah, well we'll have to play against that now.
We'll have to work with it.
So now the next part is already getting put into focus because it's got to do something inrelationship to what happened.

(50:10):
That's funny.
You mentioned even just like we can choose what we want to eat.
And I mean, sometimes my wife and I say this, like when it's meal time, it's like, I justate and we got to think about it again.
And it's such a luxury we have, but yeah, it wasn't, it was probably most of our existenceas humans.

(50:34):
was like, Hey, we, we got like, you know, these leaves we found.
That's what we're eating today.
and tomorrow and until we find something else.
for real and there's people in the world right now who, based on the resources they havearound them, I've been fortunate to travel a lot.

(50:54):
I've been a lot of different places around the world.
At one point he was living in Indonesia for a few years.
He was in the Peace Corps.
And that was one place I visited and got to stay in a super remote house with him and hishost family.
And yeah, it was the same thing every day.

(51:15):
Same exact thing every day.
And that was just his experience in this particular place.
But to make me aware that even any people in the world and to really see that andexperience
that puts in perspective.
You know, it changed a lot about, I don't know, my attitudes about, at least in Westerncultures and what privileges we have and then seeing them for being privileges.

(51:45):
You know, it's a choice.
If you have a choice to be vegan or a choice to be vegetarian or a choice to eat organicor eat whatever, I mean, it's privilege for sure.
Yeah, definitely perspective changing, I'm sure.
I read a quote today that was, we're not grateful because we're happy, we're happy becausewe're grateful.

(52:12):
Mmm, that's a good quote.
Yeah, it's stuck in my head.
There really is so much to be grateful for and therefore it makes you feel happy.
I think sometimes we get it backwards that we need to be happy first and then we can begrateful.

(52:32):
All these problems we're talking about in terms of music, it gets really silly when youstart thinking about more serious things.
And like you said, food and just those choices.
Yeah, and it's...
have the luxury of whining about the fact that we have to pick what we're going to eat forthis next meal that's virtually guaranteed to us.

(53:02):
Yeah, yeah.
And it's easy to overlook that or to let stress of whatever is going on that day or thatweek.
to kind of overshadow, overshadow that, but I think it is healthy.
And honestly, in my life, it's helped bring more of the things I've wanted and workedtowards by focusing on what I'm grateful for and not focusing on, I don't have this yet,

(53:32):
I'm not there yet.
But slowly but surely, you know, those things come and they go and...
certain point you, or least for me, of realize that it is the process and working throughthat and recognizing what you're grateful for, that brings happiness, for sure.
Yeah.

(53:53):
I've even achieved things...
In the weirdest circumstances, it was something that you thought you wanted and then in acertain lighter circumstance, it doesn't bring necessarily the feeling or whatever you
were expecting, satisfaction or achievement.
And so it kind of makes you question like where that sense of happiness comes from.

(54:17):
So for me, it's the process and staying grateful.
Yeah.
found that, like, musically, that that's happened for you?
Maybe you thought you wanted something or you're working towards something and then...
Definitely definitely I remember one time this is maybe seven or eight years ago Myfavorite music label still one of my favorite music labels of all time Reached out for me

(54:49):
to do a project with them and it was like my gosh.
This is like dream come true and It happened to be a really difficult Transitional time inmy life when that all happened and so here I was
with the opportunity to do something that I wanted.
I've been working towards that, put a lot of time in, a lot of effort, a of sacrifice.

(55:14):
And on the other hand, my life and my health needed immediate attention.
So I'm...
You know, it was hard, but after a couple months, I just reached back out to the head ofthe label and said, hey, I really appreciate this opportunity, but I think right now I
need to take care of some things in my life and get that sorted out.

(55:39):
And I did, and thankfully I don't live with any regrets in my life or what ifs so much.
I try to let go of those things.
But.
You know, at the time it was difficult to put my health and my mental health in.
my immediate security and work and everything because I decided to go through a bigchange, know, change in where I was working and what I was doing exactly with my time.

(56:13):
And I'm grateful that I went down the path that I went down because I got to improve andenjoy in so many other ways and lead to so many other things that I wanted in life.
And it's just on a different scale.
in a different place in a different time but but yeah it's hopefully answers your questionas has definitely happened before

(56:39):
Yeah, I think it's a great point because sometimes we think we know what we want, but wedon't always know what it means to have that.
And I mean, I think obviously like if you need to take care of yourself and your health,you must have made the right decision because you can't do that stuff if you don't have

(57:01):
all that other stuff anyway.
No, for sure.
And sometimes getting those things only worsens, puts other things out of balance andmakes it even harder to do.
But we don't always know what the other side of our dreams are and the things we want.

(57:25):
For me, I think about being in a band, touring.
I thought for a long time that's what I wanted to do.
No doubt about it.
Until I kind of started
doing it a little bit, really small things like, you know, self-book tours down the EastCoast for like two weeks that were a lot of fun.
mean, great times with your friends, but also really difficult on your body, on yourhealth, on your, I mean, you're, you're away from home.

(57:56):
So that I realized right pretty quickly, like I like being home, you know.
things you'd have to give up to do that, relationships, like having a pet even, settlingdown on some level, having like a job.
You can't really have that stuff.
all the, you know, like I can remember coming back from those tours and being not exactlysick for like two weeks afterwards, but you know, the body needed some time to recover

(58:29):
and.
It was really fun to get to do, by the end of it, it was like, I'm good.
You know, I see what this is and maybe it's not what I want.
It's, I don't want to go down that road any further.
Yeah, and I think it's a healthy realization to have and to experience things firsthand,you know, and be okay with challenging or questioning what you initially think you want

(58:59):
and realizing it's, you don't have to be stubborn.
No, I said I'm going to do this.
If there's something inside of you or, you know, legitimate concerns or reasons why youdon't want to do something, then...
know it's it's good to experience that so you know what you don't want to do like I'vedone plenty of things enough to know that I don't want to do that

(59:24):
Yeah.
Yeah, like.
on the other hand, sometimes things you don't realize you wanted to do, you start doing itand you're like, well, hey, that's actually kind of cool.
This is got more to it than I expected.
You don't see that, I guess.

(59:44):
If you're suppose you go on Instagram and you're looking at maybe like some of yourfavorite artists, they're on tour and you see them from behind in front of like legions of
fans.
It looks amazing.
You see the get togethers and all that.
But yeah, the other stuff you don't necessarily see and that can be, it's the other sideof the coin and you kind of need to be open to stuff.

(01:00:12):
I guess what you're saying really, like realize that there are sometimes, we don't reallyknow what we want until we're in it a lot of the times.
And it's okay to.
change.
You got to be driven for a lot of these things, but notice the signs too if it's saying,this is not for you.

(01:00:34):
sure you've been saying some bars Brian I should be writing these down you got like greatsong lyrics you just saying like conversationally
That's something I like to do actually, like when I hear people say things.
I've got lists of that stuff for movies.

(01:00:57):
Sometimes I even misheard song lyrics.
It's like, I thought he said that, but okay, I'm gonna make it mine now.
You
I need to write a song called Jason Waterfalls.
That TLC Waterfalls.
I thought it was Jason at one point.
So, yeah, a little shout out.
We should write Jason Waterfalls.

(01:01:18):
Jason Waterfalls.
Yeah, sounds like a tragic hero of some kind.
He's a crybaby.
Yeah.
I pictured him like falling from some great heights or something.
no, okay, okay.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's funny where inspiration comes from,

(01:01:41):
I think.
How do you harness that inspiration?
You do a lot of really cool stuff too.
Whether it's videos, tutorials, or just music.
How do you balance this?
This is something I've been trying to figure out my whole life.

(01:02:02):
like harnessing inspiration.
Yeah, and knowing like what to work on, what roads to go down.
I mean, I'm so obsessive that I don't really have the space to obsess over too many thingsat once.
So I'll have some primary thing or concept that I'm obsessed with.

(01:02:23):
Meaning like I'm spending every little nook and cranny chunk of 15 minutes an hour,whatever it is, early in the morning, late, middle of the day, whatever, things that you
just can't stop, but you just, it's like you're just calling you to keep doing that.
And that's just always on, you know, and.

(01:02:44):
I don't want that to turn off.
It's just curiosity about things and an interest in things.
I love comedy.
I love laughing.
I love being sarcastic.
I think just the mindset of...
hearing puns and jokes and like mispronouncing signs driving around LA and just, I don'tknow, always having that slightly step back, not so serious, like absorption of my

(01:03:17):
environment, but also being very observant and aware, know, it's, things will just pop outat you left and right all the time.
Funny things, emotional things, profound things, and I think.
being as present as possible in whatever I'm doing allows me to notice those things.

(01:03:38):
And I mean, if it's, you know, super recognizable or noteworthy or something, I write allthat down or pull out a voice note or something like that to come back to later.
But yes, I don't think I have the answer of how to balance because I think it's such apart of my life, you know, just...

(01:04:01):
thinking about things, not for what they look like or what they sound like, but what theycould be, or playing some narrative or joke or relating to some idea.
And my mind just kind of always stays there.
And in terms of balancing like, when to step away and touch grass, so to speak, you know,just do something that is completely outside of.

(01:04:29):
music and technology and creativity that's more of a conscious thing like I that's thething that takes planning and effort I mean I try to go to the gym every day in the
morning at least just so I can balance out all the stationary work that this requires andthen

(01:04:51):
And I love going outside.
I just took a road trip up to near Seattle to see my family.
We're on a spring break.
So yeah, that was a big reminder for me to like at least once a week go out and go on ahike, go do something where the whole point is that thing.

(01:05:11):
You know, it's not to get an adapter for this.
It's not to, you know, check out this restaurant or whatever.
It's just to be outside.
And that's about the most balance I get outside of my daily routine is, you know, that's,yeah.
What I enjoy just happens to be what I do, you know, for a living.

(01:05:36):
So.
Well, that's a great thing.
And I don't think it takes a lot.
know, like what you said, I mean, if you're going to the gym and taking a hike a couple oftimes a week, that's powerful.
It's enough to keep things in balance and perspective and take you away, sometimes juststepping away.

(01:06:01):
I I've even read an article recently about music students.
I think there were pianists that were
practicing and they had a group that would just practice, practice, practice for hours andhours and hours.
And then another group that would take breaks.
And the group that took breaks were just like so much better off in the long haul.
were remembering stuff better.

(01:06:23):
They were playing.
They were trying to prove that the brain is still kind of working even when you're not.
I guess it's like, I don't know, like pottery in a kiln or something like that.
Like it's got to solidify.
but never becomes anything if you're just constantly molding it.

(01:06:44):
But just that little bit can be, I mean, that happens like even when I'm making music,just stepping outside for a couple minutes is enough to refresh and open things up.
Yeah, balance is definitely huge, especially at this point in my life.
I've had times when you just grind.

(01:07:08):
You're up late, you're up early, you're up all the time, you're everywhere, you're at allthe shows, you're meeting tons of people, making connections when you can.
And that's a beautiful thing.
And I think it's important, especially in an industry like this, to go meet people, gooutside and develop real connections.

(01:07:31):
See if you can volunteer, intern, do whatever, just to start the process.
But yeah, at this point in my life, know, kind of like you're saying with, you know, thegroup that took breaks and just sounding better, I think balance and taking a break where
that's the
plan and that's the point helps me to not feel like I should be doing something elsebecause I think a lot of us you know in our culture we we pride hard work we pride the

(01:08:02):
grind and hustling and we have to to survive and to make it takes a lot of work but at thesame time it's like you
I physically, literally need to rest.
And I think also on the metaphysical side of it, you get a fresher perspective at moreregular intervals versus like you're going so hard on something every day that I don't

(01:08:31):
know, you're just...
going through it to get through it, or you're trying to force it at times.
And it's good to push yourself in terms of the volume of work that you can do, like inshort intervals.
And if you've never really gone down the kind of militant sports drill type of experience,I think everyone should at some point, absolutely.

(01:08:57):
And keep that like a regular interval thing, because...
you take too much time on things I don't know you try to make it perfect versus if you
Let's say try to write a song a day for 30 days versus working on one song for 30 daysstraight.
You're going to progress a lot more doing the one song a day for 30 days.

(01:09:19):
You're going to take more risks.
You're going to get way further along in your confidence trying things as well as justexercising like the creative mechanics of starting with nothing and finishing a song.
But to do that, you have to let go of perfection.
You have to let go of things being so controlled almost and just

(01:09:40):
Nope, every day, whatever, 30 minutes.
Like put a timer on it and knock it out.
And that is strenuous and it can be stressful, but I think it really does something toadvance you and to give you confidence and to help a lot when you go back to your normal
routine of working on things.

(01:10:02):
Yeah, it's like a balance like with most things in life, you know, and having regularrest, but also from time to time, pushing yourself beyond what you normally do just for
the sake of advancing and risk taking and, you know, pushing yourself forward.
And if you can isolate that on a specific skill, let's say you've been doing a lot ofthings for a lot of time, focus on thing you're the worst at.

(01:10:27):
Like I'm pretty terrible at like actually playing bass.
So I would love to sit down and
every day for 30 days I'm gonna learn a different bass part I'm gonna sit down for 30minutes I'm gonna okay I got this part and just internalize and then when I walk away go
back you know to my normal creative routine or whatever I now have embedded this wholething in me I can draw from you know

(01:10:52):
I'm with you on that.
think the drops in the bucket consistently are the way to go.
The one big haul, like once a week compared to every day is, you know, there's nocomparison really, because you're going into that frame of thinking over and over again.

(01:11:16):
And even like you said, like if it's a half hour, like to be okay with it being a shortperiod of time, because if you're trying to make it some extreme effort every single day,
that's going to burn you out too.
for sure.
really do that either.
You need that recovery.

(01:11:37):
Yeah, and I mean, in our lives we have like a few main things that is like most important.
Let's say your career or music is one of them.
And then you have...
know your health and your relationships and that's pretty much it and how you divide yourtime between them so when you go on too long of a stretch of grinding out work stuff

(01:12:03):
inherently you're you're sacrificing from either your personal health or yourrelationships with your loved ones or both so yeah taking the time to
give energy where it is necessary and kind of equal amounts helps to not let any one ofthem kind of fall, you know.

(01:12:26):
And I agree wholeheartedly with you saying you'll take more chances, you'll be moreexperimental even.
I know when I'm doing these like kind of more frequent things where making more music, youjust get a little crazy like, let's try something weird today.

(01:12:47):
But if I have like one song I'm trying to work on, I'm so careful with it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I don't take any chances and half the time it comes out bland for that.
I mean, there is a value in investing some time and really crafting something.
But I've really just, I think I just enjoy the other way so much more anyway, the kind ofblasting through and this was the song when I did that crazy thing.

(01:13:18):
This is the one where, yeah, I was trying this.
And I feel just almost more satisfied hearing it.
even.
Yeah, and I mean, if you think about the timeframe that we sit with certain feelings, likelet's say you just ate an amazing lunch spot, and you're just like, wow, that was so good.
Maybe an hour later, two hours later, you're into something else, you kind of forget aboutit.

(01:13:42):
Or, I don't know, let's say there's a movie you saw, or something you can't wait that'scoming up, it's got your mood elevated in some certain way.
So.
When you're writing and you're inspired and you feel excited about something, if you dragthat out too long, you know, and you're just, this is cool, I'm gonna, and then you

(01:14:05):
nitpick out everything that made it feel amazing is now kind of just withered away versusif you just keep it short.
write it, it stays as most like contained in the pure feeling that you felt, know, when itfelt inspiring.
If you get it done, you know, relatively quickly.

(01:14:26):
I feel like there's less time and disconnect versus like you trying to rejoin or come backand finish some initial thing too many days on end and you didn't fully flesh out the idea
to begin with, it's hard to match, you know, the energy and to get back into that feeling.
So it's maybe more of an honest snapshot in time of a certain feeling when you're able toknock it out just while you're feeling it.

(01:14:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I know I've heard Neil Young talk about that.
When he records, say, with like Crazy Horse, he doesn't let them play the songs too manytimes.
He doesn't want it to get too much of...
He wants it be more of a reaction to what's going on than like this performance andeventually like recreation of the reaction that you initially had.

(01:15:22):
You so it's interesting.
You mentioned also just in, guess, in this vein of experimenting and kind of having funand being in that emotional moment, you kind of talked a little bit about what it is to be
human.
This is before we started speaking or recording.

(01:15:45):
Here we are.
I knew you were reading my thoughts before we started speaking.
Yeah.
it's like AI stuff is just getting wild and
I deal with this a lot as a high school English teacher where they can pretty much doevery assignment in every subject using AI.

(01:16:09):
They take a picture of the worksheet or write the paper.
And I think the only thing I've been able to come up with so far that they can't have itdo is stand up in front of the class and talk to the class.
So in one of my classes, we're
doing just like presentations and we're like, use AI, use it to help you make it moreinteresting and more exciting.

(01:16:38):
And yeah, that's a whole other can of worms, I guess.
the point is like, you know, like we said, with our tools, there's so much we can do,right?
And like the quality is like,
you get GarageBand and you start playing around with it.
It sounds 100 times better than what I did on my 4-track when I was a teenager.

(01:17:02):
But now you can just...
There's software where you just push the button and it makes the music for you.
And I had Nick McKiron from Serato on.
He was talking about their plugin that they came up with, Hex Effects.
And he mentioned this to me and it just really stuck.

(01:17:22):
where as a software designer, you have to know how easy you're gonna make it foreverybody.
Ableton now, inside of Live, we've got the MIDI tools and the generators, and some of themwill generate parts for you and rhythms, but they didn't go the full route of all AI make

(01:17:46):
the song for you.
I mean, there are websites that are already there.
How are you feeling about all this?
Yeah, I that's a really good question.
I feel a mixture of things.
At first, I probably felt...
you know, like maybe a couple years ago when this was becoming more of a mainstream kindof occurrence when people are posting songs they're making and Suno is happening and it's

(01:18:17):
getting pretty wild and yeah, I at first had very mixed feelings and maybe felt a littleinsecure for a moment in time where it was like,
like what does that mean for you know artists and musicians and I mean being a teacher andworking with young people you know I'm fortunate to have conversations like this kind of a

(01:18:44):
lot and one thing that's come up and one thing that I've landed on is just asking yourselfwhat what role music serves in our lives number one
Number two is the extent to which humans participate in the creation or performing ofmusic or experiencing of music like attending a concert or something like that.

(01:19:11):
And to me, whether you have music that was created entirely by AI or a person, what'sgonna resonate with people is, and if we're just looking at like,
All-time universal songs that speak to everybody, know things that they play it birthdaysweddings funerals type of songs still need some element of nuance and context that

(01:19:42):
resonates strongly with us so It just kind of put me in this mindset of like Do people whoconsume music value more
just the music itself or is it more so the experience associated with the music?

(01:20:02):
And it got me thinking about well does this all mean that humans are going to cease toprovide experiences that have music present and it's like no.
there's, it's still valuable to participate in watching the concert.
It's still valuable and meaningful and exciting to witness someone sing or play guitar oran instrument in front of you.

(01:20:26):
So I think it, you know, if you look at music as just the product of recording,
maybe it's more daunting than if you look at music for everything else it is as well.
Where you can look at, I mean, one of the biggest ways.
artists make money now is touring, doing live shows and selling merch and stuff.

(01:20:51):
And that's still gonna be a thing.
Does that mean we might have an AI robot or not robot projection tour?
And I don't know.
And I don't know if that would ever override or over, I don't know, be more valuable of anexperience than seeing a person or is it something that we can exist in together, which is

(01:21:14):
ultimately
I mean, what I'd like to see and what I think is gonna happen.
We're probably gonna see successful experiences of an artist doing a tour with an amazinglight show and setup where there's no human involved ever except for whoever owns the IP
or the master recordings, you know what I mean?

(01:21:37):
But.
should that detour us or should that does that compromise the value of music performed byhumans?
I don't think so because it was a human first thing you know what I mean?
Now the other thing is the thing that worries me if there was something to worry me isthat if we become too reliant on things like

(01:22:05):
Chazzy BT or Gemini or Sora or Suno or you know, sure I'm missing a thousand of them.
Then you might lose the ability to do the thing yourself to where you're only able toperform or only able to do your job or only able to...

(01:22:28):
beyond with this tool, this supplemental thing versus being the thing.
So I think musicians and real artists and real writers still maintain their value becauseI like thinking about the example of

(01:22:48):
Let's imagine you're a young person coming up in the world right now and you're like, forme, if I was a young boy and I want to not talk to a girl who I had a crush on and I had
Chad's GBD there helping me along the way and maybe it gets me somewhere and we land adate to go out for ice cream.
What are you going to do when it comes time to actually have a conversation and bepresent?

(01:23:13):
Why they're going to get to a point where there's just an accepted middle thing.
Right?
Like, what's your favorite movie?
Respond.
I don't know if that'll be normalized.
I hope not.
I have a feeling it would be a smoother encounter overall if you were able to just bepresent and have a conversation.
And I think the exact same is true with music.

(01:23:35):
If people have aspirations of performing and doing tours and being artists, well, guesswhat?
You need to be able to do that in front of people.
And, let's say you want to get into rooms, you want to write, you want to come to LA andget into the studio scene.
I mean, yeah, it's a useful tool, but what are you going to do when you're in front ofpeople and they're all singing and throwing in melodies and you're typing into Suno or

(01:24:03):
something?
I mean, I don't know.
It's to me, that's the wall where it's like.
I don't think it could break through to that.
don't think there's gonna be...
If Zuno or Chagibiti or something is the main source of creating music, then there won'tbe these rooms where people are making music.

(01:24:23):
And anyways, still think it's valuable if you wanna be a musician, you wanna be an artist,you wanna be a producer, to learn the language.
And that's kinda what it...
boils down to.
And I definitely don't think people should be scared or, why should I, should I do musicif, you know, this all takes over and things changes?

(01:24:47):
Well, you shouldn't be doing anything with music if you don't love it to begin with.
Because if you're in it to just try and make a bunch of money, I mean, you should go be alawyer or something, you know.
too.
There's a lot smarter ways to do this than...
Yeah.
you'd probably be way more successful in a guaranteed fashion.

(01:25:07):
Because in this world, you have to be okay with uncertainty.
And to me, it's still very important to be about, you know, music and be a musician, speakthe language.
Yeah.
That's a great answer.
I have come to similar conclusions on a lot of that.

(01:25:32):
I mean, for one, it will never be as fun to click the button as it is to make it yourself,right?
To like create the song.
In my classes at school, and maybe we said this also before we hit record, but theirEnglish, high school English students that

(01:25:54):
aren't choosing to be there and aren't already excited about it.
So getting them to understand that joy of writing something that makes you feel somethingand makes you feel proud is a lot harder.
they can say, why should I do that if this computer can do it?
Just like I would think when I was a kid, why should I learn this if my graphingcalculator can do it for me?

(01:26:19):
A similar thought.
As far as like something, let's assume like music that we've already established we likedoing, it can never take that from us, I don't think.
Just the joy of sitting with your guitar, sitting with a push, sitting with anything andcoming up with something on your own is, you know, it's a really unique joy.

(01:26:49):
It's a wonderful thing we have that I don't...
see myself getting by doing a really good prompt and getting something that is stillgreat.
No, and it's interesting you say that because I've been curious about people who maybe getinterested in music production through something like using an AI thing because...

(01:27:19):
inherently when people develop an interest in something we like to get more involved or goa little deeper with it right there's the surface level you know as a kid your mom I'm not
we're not buying your drum set this might just be a fad you know this might be a phase sowhen maybe for young people it's
I'm on soon.

(01:27:40):
I made a whole bunch of music.
But you hit a wall of limitation.
that's not quite what I want.
it's not quite.
I wish I could change this little thing.
And maybe it'll act as an invitation for even more people to get involved with musicproduction and in this weird way, open up the door more because of the absolute

(01:28:03):
accessibility of putting in a prompt.
And maybe that level of engagement will invite more people to eventually get to the pointthey want to open up Ableton or open up a DAW.
But yeah, who knows?
You know, it's all really interesting.
Well, I think loops have done that, like loop packs, splice, or even just like when youopen GarageBand, you can use the Apple loops and just compose a song through, you know,

(01:28:36):
just dragging stuff in, which isn't probably for a lot of people, like a very high levelof music writing, but it's the door, you know, for someone that has no other way, right?
So it's really cool for that.
So if the prompt, oh, it was kind of cool, I made this song, wouldn't it be awesome iflike, I made the beat too?

(01:28:59):
And you you can kind of see how that would pull people in.
So I hope that happens and I think it probably would for people that are interested.
Yeah.
I'm also feeling like so much around, like you kind of got into this, but so much aroundwhy we love music is the story, the art, the artist, the situation it was written in, the

(01:29:25):
time period it came from, what was going on in the world, and the fashion even.
I probably said this here on the show before, but when I was a teenager I started wearingflannel shirts and ripped jeans because I like grunge.
You know, like what those bands stood for.

(01:29:47):
Which is all outside of the actual recording that an AI might be able to produce one day.
So I think that stuff too is what we really have to maybe lean into a little bit.
Like our own humanity.

(01:30:07):
I mean, yeah.
No, that's...
that's beautiful.
Lean into our own humanity.
yeah, well you see it in some music, right?
Lo-fi stuff is kind of got, it's not as clean as recordings were.
Even in fashion, you start seeing models not wearing makeup or not getting Photoshopped asmuch and just kind of being a little more real.

(01:30:37):
Exposing things with not as polished, I guess.
Because now we can get polished.
For a long time it was like the aspiration.
man, that's just how I felt as a kid recording.
I want my stuff to sound really polished and professional.
And then it did, and then I'm like, I want it to sound old and dirty again.

(01:31:01):
true I have this beautiful little piece of hardware this chroma console just to makethings sound old and yeah yeah I love that little guy yeah yeah that's funny I I used to
be an audio engineer at a it's like a video production company and one of my directorfriends he was a camera guy for a lot of years he was talking about man

(01:31:30):
Do know how long it took to get like a true Black Point in digital video?
And right after we get there, everyone's washing it back out and just making it lookfaded.
He's like, I don't get it.
We just, but it's pretty funny.
I thought about, I mean, slightly related, not super related, but music playback mediums,we can avoid these, these systems that have skips in them.

(01:32:01):
We went from playing music in person to then it's on a vinyl record and back in scratchand be wobbly.
know, needle can jump, whatever.
And then we got into eight tracks and cassette and okay, tape could get chewed up.
And then we got CDs, but it could be scratched and it skips.
then there was MP3 players and that was great.

(01:32:22):
It was like, okay, no skipping.
And then now it's streaming and then all the service is spotty.
we can't avoid just constantly slightly going two steps back in certain ways.
And it's funny.
Yeah.
It is funny, but we kind of have grown to like that too.

(01:32:45):
guess so.
I guess so.
something about it.
I guess it's the physicality of it maybe.
There's something cool about things that we're like we don't have things anymore.
It's all stuff.
One thing you mentioned the chroma console like it's right there and I mean you can reallydo most of that inside your computer right like there's real I don't think there's

(01:33:14):
anything in there that
We probably don't have multiple roads in the computer to do, but the fact that it's thereand you can play with it in real time is tangible.
All my plugins, you forget about them half the time because they're nowhere.
They're just hiding in these digital folders.

(01:33:38):
Yeah, no, it's true.
And I think the other thing too is a lot of racks in Ableton that I like to make, I takevisual elements away.
So I'm just, it's just macro knobs and a lot of them, because I love that about hardwareis, I mean, people have the whole digital verse analog, know, conversations in every

(01:34:06):
direction and.
one element of that though is we're not making decisions so much on what we see it's verysimplified like there's some numbers on a knob but ultimately you're listening way more
than you're like looking at a FFT graph on the EQ or something and

(01:34:29):
That's also extremely valuable and it's important to me just to force myself to only usemy ears and to not look at it.
With the macros, it can be fun for me to give them names that are a little abstract, likeunderwater.

(01:34:49):
And that might be like reverb in a filter or something, but calling it underwater, callingit like magic dust or something.
You know, that's one thing I loved about the OP-1 is like you got these four knobs andit's just changing a picture around.
And you're like, you don't really know what's going on.

(01:35:11):
You might have like, it's kind of like a filter or it's kind of like this or that, butultimately you're just listening.
And you're, I like that a lot because like you said, you're making music like with youreyes, which is almost, doesn't make a lot of sense.

(01:35:31):
like even if I'm playing drums, because that's what started it all for me as a kid, likeI'm not staring at every drum I'm playing.
I can look anywhere.
You know, I don't need to see what I'm doing.
And a good guitar player, I would not say I'm good enough a guitar to not look.
I need to look still a little bit.
But a good guitar player, they don't need to look.

(01:35:53):
You know, piano player, they don't need to look.
And with Ableton, I...
any DAWs so it's Ableton, the computer.
You gotta look.
Yeah, you kind of got to know what you're looking at.
Although they're doing a lot for the accessibility, which is cool.
I've heard from some people that have some visual impairments that are like, this is nice.

(01:36:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Yeah, I try to remind people of that when they're getting worked up about the shortcutschanging.
I'm like, it's for a good cause.
It's a good thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
bad.
Well, I might be ready to cook some food here soon.
I think I'm getting hungry.

(01:36:36):
I hear you.
My dog was licking my leg.
I think she fell back asleep somewhere, but she's ready to go too.
Dude, it was great talking to you, Really.
I'm glad we got to meet in person and talk here.
Like I've said, I've enjoyed your stuff.
I got a real big kick out of you and Chuck doing kind of the April Fools video.

(01:36:59):
I think you guys call it Two Things instead of One Thing.
yeah.
arguing back and forth with each other.
That was so much fun.
There was some moments where I was like, Chuck, you you want me to push you off screen alittle bit?
Oh no, it'd be hilarious.
It's like, cause my character is like, this is, this is who I'm being.
So yeah, for sure.

(01:37:20):
Do it.
All right.
So there was like little moments where.
Just making sure that we're on the same page.
And yeah, the hardest part is we just kept laughing.
One or both of us couldn't hold it.
We kept breaking.
So that was a good time.
Strangely enough, we had some requests to do more tutorials.

(01:37:43):
Because one person was like, whoa, I never thought to do that.
That's really tight.
You should do more tutorials like this.
I was like, OK.
But mean, infotainment, I think, does really well.
You know, it's actually not a bad format because so much of what we talk about is very,you contradict yourself in the next sentence, right?

(01:38:05):
I we were saying this, break the rules, learn the rules, break them.
So to have these kind of characters that are representing that, and also just when youplay music with people, there's so much of that sort of stuff that can happen.
Oh man.
Yeah, I'm glad that that translated because we're that was kind of the point was like, youknow, we could show multiple ways of doing something when ultimately it's going to turn

(01:38:32):
out the same or maybe just not.
It's not that big of a deal.
It's not worth getting so worked up about and just kind of making that part of the thesatire is just.
Yeah.
Initially, one idea was just to have it be exact opposite, like split screen.
voices synced up it was just too specific where it was exact opposite for like mixing akick like I always boost up I never boost and we're doing inverted things but then ending

(01:39:02):
up at like the exact same sound yeah
you can search around and definitely get that conflicting information.
yeah, and I don't know, there's like, you know, part of the maybe just the internetculture.
I don't see this as much in real life, but it is there.
As people make it a part of their identity a lot, understanding the technical book, howthings are and nope, this is what, like I'm sure you've had wild things said at or about

(01:39:32):
you and I've certainly experienced the same when people, I don't know, they take it soseriously and it's like.
It's not that serious.
mean, and I don't want to detract or take away from what people identify with.
And if you are a modular synth signal flow guru diehard and that's what you live for,that's cool.

(01:39:55):
But, you know, I like people and working with people and being around people andunderstanding that it doesn't matter so much to just have to be so right all the time.
And I don't know.
That's one part about internet production culture I wish was a little different.
It can be a little...

(01:40:16):
negative, all tense and shit.
I don't know.
Yeah!
Yeah, and it's like...
use oscillators, they're sound generators.
And then it's like, great, you're right.
And then we walk away and it's like, I'm gonna go enjoy my life.
And like, I don't know, I hope you're all right.

(01:40:38):
Yeah.
I've come to really appreciate this thought as a band member, know, playing in a band.
We started playing together like about five years ago and I hadn't played in a band for afew years.
But I realized the most important thing here is the relationship we have as a band, as thehang, getting together, you know.

(01:41:04):
The music, look.
Especially nowadays, because if I want to do it all my way, I can do that all by myself.
So there's no need to be some strict enforcer of everyone else's parts.
you know, just if it goes a different way, it goes a different way.
Like, the point is, like, we're having fun playing music together, not that my part isthis way and your part is that way.

(01:41:30):
And then we're doing it this way or the highway, you know.
any of kind of stuff.
That's a reggae tone in the piano.
We're doing this genre.
We can't do that.
Okay.
The van breaks up.

(01:41:51):
Well, listen, I'm going to put links to all your stuff.
The push course is awesome shapes and progressions.
I really do recommend it.
And what's cool about it too is you don't even have to go through it just once.
Like you can come back to it as like an exercise even.
And I think you kind of opened my mind to just the concept of inversions where you're justlike, we'll move this up an octave and now we have an inversion.

(01:42:17):
We'll move this one down an octave.
I don't think I've really thought about it quite that way.
It's very, makes perfect sense, but maybe it's something about seeing it too on push thatthere's a lot of dots connected for me watching it.
I think it's a really great resource.

(01:42:39):
you know, so I'll put a link to that.
I'll put links to your Instagram.
Is there any place you want to direct people just now?
No, mean just the links I already sent you, you know, I've got also just some free like ademo of the class you're referring to and one of a little bit not quite as it's not

(01:42:59):
interactive, but I put one out before this class that is like level like day one, like Idon't know, no names on a piano, what is a scale?
And it's like super, super introductory.
Cause I had a lot of people reach out over time just saying like, Hey, I don't have,
play an instrument, no music theory experience, could I learn to play push?

(01:43:21):
So it just got me thinking about how can I make this accessible to everyone?
So there's some free stuff if people are like brand brand new and then yeah the the paidone is just super extensive.
There's the ebook, the interactive Ableton sessions and it's compatible back to likeversion 10.

(01:43:42):
this.
And yeah, I'm happy to throw like a discount code too for people from your audience.
Yeah, yeah.
Of course, yeah.
Well cool Jamie, thanks so much and hopefully we'll do this again sometime.
Best of luck to you with everything.

(01:44:02):
appreciate you having me best of luck to you as well and next time I'll get my riversidebusiness sorted out that was sorry for the delay
Nah, it's all good.
Thanks, man.
And thank you for listening.
guys have a great day.

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