Low Heat Beats on Flow, Creativity, and Sharing Your Music

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Boyan, welcome to the music production podcast.
Really nice to have you in real life.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's a pleasure is all mine as a listener of the podcast and being a guest on the podcastthat has had so many legendary people.
You had Roger Lin in one of your...

(00:21):
Some people that are listening now may not know that because maybe they found the podcastlater.
But you had Roger Lin like a couple of years ago.
That was incredible.
Yeah.
Pioneer.
I mean, we have probably those, you know, four by four drum pads largely because of him.
Exactly.
And to be on the same podcast as him is just incredible.

(00:45):
Yeah, this has been a real hack for my own education and getting to know people,networking, doing the podcast, which I didn't realize it would be, but it's such a great
chance to talk.
mean, I've been following your work for a long time on YouTube.
love what you do.
I love your tone and your enthusiasm and the music you make is really cool also.

(01:05):
So I don't think without the podcast, I don't have a good excuse to approach you.
know what I mean?
And now here we are talking and it's.
It's so fun.
Like you're literally sitting in it.
That's what I think I said the first moment we opened up.
You're sitting exactly where you are for your videos.
And it's like, Whoa, it's, almost like being in a virtual reality kind of thing where nowwe can interact.

(01:29):
But I think,
I joined the, I accepted the invitation.
The main reason is to just hang out with you and talk to you.
It's just something I'm really happy to do.
So thank you for having me.
happy you came on.
Like I said, you're doing awesome work.
I've learned a lot from what you do and gotten inspired from what you do and yourchannel's growing so nicely.

(01:55):
So you're doing fantastic work.
Thanks for sharing all that with everybody.
No man, thank you, thank you.
where, what got you started in all this?
Actually getting to put yourself out there like on YouTube and social media, sharing yourknowledge.
Well, let's just do like a quick...

(02:16):
going back in time.
So I really don't have like any proper background in music, like being trained classicallyor anything like that.
I remember I discovered music production when I was 16 years old.
A friend of mine gave me a copy of Feffel Studio.

(02:37):
Totally legit, of course, like in high school.
And so ever since then I was hooked on like it was just incredible to be able to just useyour own sounds and sequence them.
It was just something that boggled my mind back then.
I think I was so excited that I couldn't really sleep that night when I found out that Ijust remember it so so clearly.

(03:00):
But I never really, you know, had a environment of people to work with to like I do know acouple of people now.
But I never really had a good environment to and people to work with to collaborate withto do some even a business venture connected to music production or something like that.

(03:24):
and also my music, I felt like it was good, but it was not getting the attention I felt itdeserved.
Right.
You know, because getting and that's a bit later, obviously, and I'm not talking aboutlike maybe six or seven years ago when I started the channel.
It's hard to get your music heard and it's been like that for a while, it's not somethingnew.

(03:48):
So for me that was like a way to first of all do things on my own terms, like I don'tdepend on anyone and also a way to try to expose people to my music through creating
content.
And firstly, like in the beginning, I thought I wanted to sell

(04:10):
Beats to vocalists, which is kind of crazy thinking about it now because I don't really docontent for these people.
My content is for producers.
So I quickly, that's why it's low heat beats.
It has remained this way ever since.
I haven't changed it, but it was the initial idea to sell beats, which again, when youcreate content for producers, you can't really sell beats to vocalists because they don't

(04:37):
watch that content.
So I quickly realized that that was not the proper thing to do for me.
And so, yeah, it took me quite a while to get semi-good at this.
Like if you look at my other videos, they were like kind of cringy, but that is probablyevery creator's early videos.

(05:01):
So yeah, I think this is the gist of it, like what got me started.
back in the day, think it was 2018.
Hmm.
Yeah.
And it's grown really well in that time.
It's interesting how you had that one idea, selling beats to vocalists, but then kind ofrealize, that's not really what I'm doing.

(05:26):
That's not really where my interest is.
But I think you don't really learn that unless you start trying, right?
You have to take those steps and then realize, okay.
I thought I was going that way, but it looks like I'm actually headed in this direction.
No, you're right.
I think just starting to do things without...
like you can plan and overthink as long as you want and the cliche of, I need this amazingcamera to start.

(05:52):
No, I think my first videos were filmed on an iPhone 6s or something like that.
No one cares what you use like for...
you just need to start without overthinking.
I didn't have really the camera...
presence on camera that's like proper for such videos it was like really not good butunless you start doing it you can't learn how to do it and one thing that I was always

(06:19):
conscious and worried that people will be negative they'll be like look at this guy hejust he just doesn't know what what he's doing like he like he has an accent because I'm
Bulgarian like I don't really like my accent used to be much worse when I started I thinkit has gotten much better these days but
In the end I realized no one actually cares and the feedback was much more positive evenon my cringy videos than there were like very few negative comments or people being like

(06:53):
really really negative so...
And you know, you will always get those negative comments like you shouldn't let them getto you they're not really...
You don't need to pay attention to them.
They do sting and sometimes it takes about 10 positive comments to make you feel a littlebetter about one negative comment.

(07:18):
I tell you though, I've found out of say 10 negative comments, nine of them, if I eitherdon't say anything or especially if I just reach out genuinely.
really sorry you feel that way, thank you for letting me know, the feedback's reallyhelpful, whatever, just kindness.

(07:41):
They almost always come back and say, I'm sorry, I didn't think you'd even read this, Iwas just messing around, you know, they feel bad or, you know, it's not really who they
are.
It's just a moment maybe and they don't even realize they're contacting another person, soI found maybe like,
that restores a little bit of my faith in humanity, know, because the YouTube comments canbe a little brutal sometimes, but generally, people aren't so bad.

(08:13):
know, most of the feedback, like you said, is positive and encouraging, and even if it'scritical, a lot of times, there's still a thank you in there.
And like you said, you can't worry about it too much.
You know, probably they just had a bad day or something.
But also I appreciate constructive criticism where it's like genuine feedback forsomething you didn't quite do right.

(08:38):
That's totally fine.
That's even good.
So people are actually paying attention to what I do and they provide feedback.
I really appreciate that.
There is nothing wrong with that when they do that.
And the worst thing is just nothing.
know, no, like absolutely nothing.
At least, you know, people are taking it in a little bit.

(08:59):
True, true, true.
You've mentioned like it was a way to get people maybe to listen to your music too.
And I think that's a smart approach.
We, there's so much music coming out all the time.
We need to find ways to make it worth listening or pique people's interest because it'sjust not enough to say I made a song.

(09:20):
I finished a song.
It is a huge deal to finish and you should congratulate yourself and feel good, but
It needs something else still and creating some content around it is definitely a verysmart thing because you're also adding some value, you're teaching people.
But I think that's a tricky thing that we all need to navigate.

(09:42):
How do we figure out how to get people interested in our work?
Because I don't really think the work itself is quite enough when you have endlessoptions, infinite options of not only new stuff coming out, but everything else that's
ever been recorded.
is available at our fingertips.
Man, I think while we're talking, of songs have been uploaded to Spotify just since thestart of our conversation.

(10:09):
So it's kind of hard for people to navigate this.
But definitely was a way for me to expose people to what I do.
Some people care.
Some people were like, wow, that's really great.
I love this.
I'm glad I found you.
Some people are adjusting it for the gear stuff or for the tutorials, which is...

(10:29):
fine again, no problem with that, I totally understand, but if you do it consistently,more and more people will take notice, I guess, and also I use the opportunity for like
maybe when there's like a big new thing to show, like for example like Ableton Move, likethis new device that Ableton released, or the new machine update, or whatever like new

(10:57):
software or hardware comes out.
I always take the opportunity to showcase my work alongside that because these videos getmore views and that's just more exposure for the music that you do.
But I also, since then, I've started releasing on a label.

(11:19):
It's called Stereo Fox Records.
They are my friends here from Bulgaria, but they operate on an international...
level like their international team.
So they have been a huge help for actually getting me into playlists and curators tonotice what I do.

(11:44):
I've had like a couple of tracks on played on BBC radio shows so that was kind ofincredible.
That would have never happened without them.
So I'm really thankful to have that relationship with them and their support has beenamazing.
Honestly, if I was to do it just by myself, that would have been far less effective, to behonest, because creating the music, like you are already doing too many things.

(12:17):
Like you are a songwriter, composer, producer, engineer.
mixing and mastering engineer actually.
So and then you have to if you have to do everything that's related to promoting the musicthat's just overwhelming man.

(12:38):
I can't do it all it's just...
If you have someone help you, it's just a privilege to have.
Yeah, you're doing video content too and social media.
It's wild how many things I found myself doing because I started doing music.

(12:58):
Web design, you know, like, no, I would never be doing any of this stuff, but it's becauseof the music and you want to find ways to share it or to talk about it.
It's amazing we have this opportunity.
And it's not just music that's been democratized, but everything, video editing,publishing, know, releasing music, everything has been made available to just about

(13:24):
everybody that wants to at least, you know, take the time to learn how to do a little bitof it.
But that doesn't mean then you have to do all of it.
So there's a...
It's nice to get help.
It's nice to have that, you know, nobody can do it alone.
absolutely, man.
And I think it's there's there's so much great music out there.

(13:49):
Like I see people who are like older.
They are always like, music used to be so great back in the day.
Not really.
Like this is just your perception because you were younger back then and only the stuffthat's really stood the test of time.
You only remember that, you don't remember all the like subpar stuff that was released.

(14:14):
But obviously the amount of music that's like you to get through the noise now it's muchharder.
But there is so much great music out there.
yeah, I don't I think like it's hard to it's hard to compete with with so many talentedpeople all over the world.
And it's not so centralized like back in the day I feel like it was like

(14:34):
You know, had MTV, the Billboard charts or whatever, and like everyone was listening tothat.
Nowadays, you have many small sub genres and communities that are focused around thingsthat not necessarily many other people may not know about at all, but it may be a vibrant

(14:55):
community around certain style or certain subculture.
And so I feel like the internet has facilitated that.
in a big way.
So I feel like everyone can find their niche to enjoy, but if you're only waiting for thebig labels to spoon feed you music, yeah, it's gonna be like the stuff that's appealing to

(15:18):
most people.
It's never gonna be like the most creative stuff, although it sometimes is.
Like, I don't hate on that for sure, but yeah, that's how I feel about the landscape ofmodern music versus...
what it used to be back in the day.
Yeah, that's a good point.
And if you think about, if you grab any year from the past, we're getting that, like sayit was like 1969, we'll just say.

(15:46):
We have today only the stuff that rose to the top.
I mean, even in 1969, it was only the stuff that rose to the top and got through that verynarrow funnel.
And now it's the stuff that's stood the test of time.
So a lot of
those songs still didn't last into today.
And if you look back on the past, we're really looking at the best of the best.

(16:11):
And then, yeah, it's, it's easy to say, yeah, music was so much better back then, becauseyou're looking at all the best stuff that lasted, that had meaning and continues to have
meaning compared to just whatever's happening today.
And it's, yeah, it's not really a fair comparison.
Maybe it's because it's a little bit harder to find.

(16:32):
have to do a little more work now.
Whereas it used to be, Hey, this is the top 10 countdown on MTV.
Here we go.
Number one.
And that was kind of nice to have that somebody choosing that and vetting stuff.
But you write that if you want to get really specific in genres, electronic music isreally probably the best example of that because

(16:58):
You can go down IDM or bass music.
then in each one of those is 24,000 different lanes.
can check out very specific.
So we have a good, and we have it, I guess, the price for that good, you know, a littlebit more work, a little more effort goes into it.

(17:19):
because we don't have the gatekeepers back in the day, like you couldn't get through MTVor Billboard or whatever just on your own, it has to be picked in a way.
And nowadays you can do it off in your bedroom.
So it's a totally different landscape.
I'm thankful for that.

(17:40):
I think it's pretty cool that I can be in this same spot I'm sitting right now, come upwith an idea, flesh it out, work on it, finish it, publish it, send it out to the world
without moving, without doing anything.
Yeah, sure.
take it for granted and that's a good point that it's actually kind of incredible if youthink about it.

(18:04):
Yeah, when I think about my little trackpad on my laptop, it's just these little fingermovements.
know, just this strange like kind of secret code of finger movements that makes a song andputs it out on the internet.
It's wild.
True, true man, I agree, absolutely.
And you make the point too of, you know, some of your older videos being the cringey ones.

(18:30):
mean, I feel the same way about mine too.
think when I started, I don't even think I had an external camera.
think it was just the laptop camera.
And that was, I don't know, 15 years ago.
And that didn't look too good, but at the time it was enough.
was, we're at that point where.

(18:51):
Even the lowest quality stuff we have is still pretty darn good, especially compared towhat we used to have.
Especially if the content you are providing is valuable to people because I always likethe best example for me is and You may correct me if I'm if I'm wrong, but if I remember
correctly your episode with Roger Lin His audio quality wasn't really great.

(19:18):
Like it was a bit hard to listen to but it's Roger Lin like you're gonna listen to himeven if even if you need to like
strain a bit to hear what he's saying because what he has to say is so valuable and so thesame thing is like with the YouTube content or anything else as long as the content is

(19:42):
valuable people will pay attention and the quality doesn't really matter too much to behonest
Yeah, I guess I think the lowest quality we have is already way up here compared to whatwe used to have.
That was a thought that really helped me with my own songwriting recording process.

(20:04):
When I finally moved up past the cassette four track where you really do need to payattention to how you're miking things and noise, because every track is just loaded with
tapists to begin with.
So anything you add to that is.
trouble.
So then the tape hiss is added to the tape hiss from the, like, you record with the tapehiss and then you add more tape hiss, right?

(20:29):
Is that how it, I've never used that.
Is that how it works?
yeah.
So if you think of you have four tracks, every time you turn on a mic and you, it, there'shiss on that track.
And then the next track has a little bit of hiss and it just adds up.
And if you start doing things like some of the tricks we used to do to get more tracks, wewould take the three tracks and record them onto track four.

(20:52):
So you do like a mix on the track four.
now it's mono and all of that noise is added together onto track four.
And it's degraded.
And then you would do maybe two more tracks and then mix those three tracks.
After a while you shh.
And sometimes you'd even hear like these magical instruments pop up that you didn't evenplay because it's all the harmonics mixing together.

(21:17):
And you'd be like, what is that little sound?
It's just the artifacts of the tape and all these, I guess, like all the frequencies fromthe saturation and distortion coming together.
And you'd almost hear these like phantom.
melodies or phantom sounds in there, but it was, it sounded like you were, you know, atthe ocean, you know, listening to all that noise.

(21:41):
So when I first got digital recorders, I was like, it doesn't matter what I do here.
It's going to sound way better than my four track.
So I kind of let go of some of that stuff with the gear, with the, mic placement andgetting everything perfect.
and focused on just making the song.

(22:02):
Even the really bad mistakes with technique and quality didn't matter because it wasalready so far ahead.
I mean, nowadays we're so deep into that where you can almost make a song without anyconsideration to any kind of technique with recording or mixing.

(22:24):
still obsess over sound quality.
But I absolutely agree with you.
Like you can make...
You are absolutely...
I am absolutely a hundred percent.
Of course that stuff matters and you can keep leveling up your sound a bit.
But it is funny, you know, coming from that and then being where we are now where youcould know nothing and your song will sound a hundred times better than my four track

(22:52):
songs that I painstakingly tried to get right.
Yeah, but what's even funnier is that we now try to add this on purpose, right?
You have all the Lo-Fi plugins and effects.
So, like, it gets going full circle.
it's just the nostalgia for that sound.
Yeah.
I love it too.

(23:12):
And I do that.
I edit.
I have a tape machine that I use for that, but it's, yeah.
And it's much more under my control now though, where I can.
Yes.
Yeah.
I got it right next to me.
It's a Tascam 388.
So it's an eight track reel to reel on quarter inch reels.

(23:33):
And it has a mixing board built into it.
So it's a self-contained thing and it's fantastic.
It's a lot of fun.
It's really fast.
You record it, it's on tape.
There you go.
You got some EQ, but that's it really.
Maybe you can run the return effects.
They've got, I think two, you can send effects to.

(23:57):
But it's just, boom, there you go.
But a lot of times what I'll do is record a lot into
the DAW into live and then bounce those two tracks onto the tape and get the warmth of it.
Or maybe even just do kind of like stems.
Like I'll make eight stems out of that, eight groups.

(24:21):
maybe like, or channel one and two will be drums.
They get put on the tape on one and two and then mix on the machine, which can be kind offun.
question do you you din do you use something to denoise it then or do you keep the noisethat it adds
No, I kind of want the noise at this point.
You know, it does have like a DBX, you know, kind of thing like that.

(24:48):
Yeah, I never liked it.
I just felt like it took all the energy out of it.
Maybe I'm not using it right, but anytime I've tried it, I was just like, nah, I want thenoise.
So yeah, now I'm using the noise like as a creative effect.
Whereas back in the old days, I was fighting.
with my life against that noise.

(25:09):
It's too much.
And so many things are like that, even just quantizing drums.
Well, they're too perfect now.
Now I need them to be a little sloppier.
And I used to wish my drums could be perfectly tight.
Yeah, absolutely, but you know you have the groove templates so I mean you can do it all
Yep.
The groove pool is an amazing tool where you can, just, you can steal grooves, basically.

(25:34):
You can steal the feel.
think a lot of times when people are sampling old records, it's because they want thefeeling, the groove, the movement.
And using that groove pool, you can get that and that's nothing you need, permission for.
It's, it's just timing.
So you can have that.

(25:55):
That one gets slept on a bit, extracting grooves.
Put some videos in the show notes for that.
No, no, true, true.
I don't use it myself often enough, so you're absolutely correct that it's
I'll do it even for my own performances.
Like, even if I'm finger drumming a beat, I'll extract that groove and then apply it tothe bass line that I program.

(26:20):
And it's playing along to me a little bit more.
Alright, yeah, yeah, because you can't be like amazing at all instruments like obviouslylike maybe if you have like a person that's specialized for every instrument but that
would be like
Yeah, and it's not perfection.

(26:42):
It's just making it a little more like the performance.
So yeah, my finger drumming is whenever I zoom in, I'm off the grid.
I'm not hitting right on there like a drum machine, but then I can have the baseline Iprogrammed morph to that rather than the grid.
But you do play the guitar as far as I know, but you do play the drums a bit, right?

(27:05):
Or am I...
cool, cool.
So that's plenty.
mean, guitar and drums, that's plenty.
I don't really play any of these instruments, unfortunately.
I always wanted to, but I felt like I would probably...
Yeah, it would probably be too overwhelming to start.

(27:27):
It's never too late, right?
Never too late.
No.
I think about when I started, was a teenager and, know, but even if I would have startedwhen I was 25, that'd be still like 15, 20 years by now.

(27:49):
So it's yeah, not too late.
It's, you know, it's only too late when it really is too late.
Yeah, yeah, true man.
cause you can really, within like a year, you can be maybe not even a year.
mean, if you're thinking about for performing or not necessarily performing, but for likeproducing and recording, you can use some of your studio wizardry too, to clean up those

(28:20):
performances.
got take lanes that you can use to clean stuff up.
So.
You know, it doesn't have to be totally perfect.
And I guess for the purposes of recording, you can not be as good as you would need to befor actual performances.
I mean, that's how I am with keyboards.

(28:42):
I don't play piano or anything, but I use the piano.
I use the synth.
I have to fix it a lot.
I get what you're saying, yeah.
Yeah, we're in a great time for that stuff, you know?
I haven't used the take lanes too much to be honest.
When I make music I just play on the keyboard basically.

(29:06):
I play the pads on various controllers, record some drum grooves and they just play thekeys.
I forget we had that.
So probably not a bad idea to explore it more.
But maybe I can use it.

(29:26):
Maybe like the way you use a keyboard, maybe I need to start using a guitar or bassguitar.
Maybe starting with something simple.
may not be a bad idea.
treat it like a sample, know, chop it up.
And I mean, we could do that with any audio now.
It's pretty cool.

(29:48):
How do you like to work?
You cover so much gear in your videos.
Do you have like a kind of, when it's time to make music, certain tools you like to focuson, or do you like to kind of try new stuff and see where it takes you?
So the gear thing it's related to Basically creating videos that people want to watch ButI'm also like curious to try it for myself But I'm not gonna be necessarily go out of my

(30:20):
way to buy something and use it and try it just because it's the latest Hyped thing on theinternet, but I feel like to
do well as a creator on YouTube you need to make the content that people want to watchit's as simple as that is otherwise I would just use a pad controller like I mostly use

(30:43):
the Ableton Push 2 and nowadays I use this thing here as well yeah because it's verycompact actually it works really like it just slots into into my setup really easily and
then also the like I have the control mark 3 keyboard from from native instruments
So that's like my main...
So basically a keyboard, some pads, a computer, an audio interface, honestly.

(31:08):
That is all I need.
And if I get something new and try it out and it's cool, I may use it sometimes, but a lotof times gear is just a distraction.
Like I'm just being completely honest.
Because it's...
all about what you have to say with your music it's not necessarily the gear that willadd...

(31:35):
obviously it can lead to some interesting results I'm not denying that but there are a lotof things that I've bought that they just don't get too much use because they just get in
the way so having a simple small setup with everything you need a good computer is like

(31:57):
the main thing.
actually like computers, I'm not like the...
because people have started to be bored of computers and they always want these smallgadgets which again the Ableton Move is great for that, I love it.
But at the end of the day for me the computer is just an amazing tool that...

(32:18):
yeah, I don't hate it.
I love it, I enjoy using it and the possibilities it gives me...
And at the price I get these possibilities, it's just amazing.
But I get why people are bored with it because they're so ubiquitous nowadays.
But yeah, these are the tools that I really value and that I use every day.

(32:42):
Hmm.
I thought you might say something like that, that there is kind of this core thing youhave and then you have to get these like guest stars once in a while.
It's fun to experiment with new things and sometimes it makes you work in new ways.
But I agree with you when you invest in a new piece of gear, it's more than just money.

(33:04):
There's a lot of time and learning and it's kind of a step backwards in your productivitya lot of times.
And it's worth knowing that because I've thought hundreds of times in my life by now, onceI get this new thing that's coming in the mail from Sweetwater, then I'm going to make my

(33:25):
hits.
It's going to be easy, you know?
And so far that hasn't happened yet.
There've been things that have helped, that have improved my workflow to some degree, butthere really hasn't been anything that was just like, my God.
Here it is.
That's the secret.

(33:46):
That's just not it.
And what you said about it helps you maybe express yourself.
It's kind of, that's the most important thing is the actual music, the expression and theproduct that you come up with.
It's not the, the tools that helped you get there.
It almost be like the ideas are what we're communicating when we speak, right?

(34:09):
It's not the grammar isn't the point.
That's just the way we organize our thoughts.
But really it's these ideas and the words are just vehicles, just like our controllers aretoo.
Finding a good new word might help you express something a little faster, but it doesn'tcreate the expression for us.

(34:31):
That's still there.
new will give you a different perspective for a while to just switch it up a bit.
But at the end of the day, I always go back to the core tools that I use because I justknow them.
You have to be at the level that you don't think about the tools at all.
It's all about the ideas and what you want to express in the tools.

(34:54):
They just need to be transparent.
And so that's why it's very hard to...
Like, so for example, there are so many, like, let's say Bitwig, like an amazing DAW,right?
Better than Ableton, like, yeah, but I just know life so well, I don't really have anymotivation to even try it because it's not gonna make my music better.

(35:17):
It's the tools that you know are the best tools that you can use.
Yeah, that's so true.
And when I first got into computer production, I went through various DAWs, tried outwhatever I can, all legally, of course, just like you.

(35:38):
And when I did finally make it to live, I think a couple of things happened.
I think for one, I just liked it.
It felt more like...
for me as a songwriter rather than an engineer where I felt like Pro Tools and a lot ofthe other ones were more for engineers.
It was also a matter of, was just tired of looking.

(36:02):
I was tired of all that time I was spending trying to learn how Pro Tools works, how Iwent to digital performer, Logic, Cubase, how these all worked.
All my music time became trying to figure out software.
And by the time I got to live, I liked it.
There were a few things I was able to do easily, like MIDI map.

(36:23):
And that was kind of a breakthrough for me.
But then I was like, I'm done looking.
I want to settle down.
I want to date anymore.
I want to start a serious relationship.
Absolutely, absolutely.
So now you're an Ableton certified trainer, are you?
Am I correct about this?
So look where this led you, that's kind of incredible.

(36:47):
Amazing.
I don't get there if I don't stop looking, right?
And that journey is kind of funny because I didn't ever think I was going to get to thatpoint.
Especially when I started releasing content, releasing packs.
I started releasing packs, I think in 2011.

(37:09):
And I just knew how to put samples in Sampler.
and then play them on the keyboard.
And I was just sharing those.
And kind of what you were saying earlier, like you kind of wonder if people are to hate onyou for it.
But most of the reaction was people thought I was some sort of expert at it.

(37:33):
how do I do this?
They're asking me all these other questions.
And a lot of times I would try to figure that out because I wanted to be able to help thembecause I couldn't believe they were watching my videos.
you know, so.
I would go and learn and that process of creating this content and making these packs gotme more down that road of trying to learn how to do more stuff and more production

(37:58):
unexpectedly, you know, which again, we said earlier, you sort of have to start down apath to figure out where you're going.
And that was a...
a really fun development I didn't see coming and my day job, my grown-up work is highschool English teacher.

(38:18):
And suddenly now my teaching experience is starting to come mixed with my music.
And for so long I thought they were just two separate lives that I lived.
And it made sense.
like, yeah, okay, I could see this.
A lot of times I would be teaching similar concepts to English students about writing.
that I was talking about with making music and I was starting to see the parallels of howcreating a story is similar to making a song.

(38:48):
But again, I don't get there if I don't just go without worrying too much about it.
No, no, true, Teaching is hard.
I used to teach music production locally.
I've been off it for little while.
I haven't done it recently.
And that experience taught me, I learned a lot from it.

(39:13):
What I learned is that the best way to learn something yourself is to have to teach it thenext day.
It's like you just have to figure it out.
really well to be able to explain it to people who are not familiar with the concept andalso yeah that has helped me lot but it's draining like I'm not gonna lie like teaching is

(39:36):
just very hard it's hard work at least for me like even the act of talking so much and youhave to be on point you don't you can't just waffle like talk
You have to be very specific about the things you say, the way you explain them, it's It'sjust tiring, it's just...

(39:59):
fatiguing, it's just not an easy thing to do.
At least from my perspective, I feel like it's demanding.
It's exhausting.
My days at work are tiring mentally, sometimes emotionally too, then you're dealing withjust people and their lives and their challenges as well.

(40:23):
but you are correct.
Like learning how to explain it to somebody is a really good way to learn it yourselfbecause you especially start to see when they don't understand how they're not getting it.
Okay.
So, maybe I'm not thinking about it, right?
Maybe I need to come at it in a different angle.
And sometimes that's what really makes a lot of sense.

(40:47):
It's interesting to see how that works.
mean, YouTube must be doing a lot of that though when you're like, suppose like, youyou're reviewing like a new instrument or synth.
I'm just looking at your YouTube right now and like, I see like the new Korg synth,machines updates, keyboard samplers, you got Move is new.
So you're obviously learning that.

(41:11):
So you're transferring that into teaching for your YouTube videos.
No, sure, sure.
I don't really review that much gear.
A lot of these that you mentioned are just like news recaps.
just do these videos sometimes just to recap for people what has happened during a weekwith a lot of new releases.
I don't really do so many gear reviews.

(41:32):
I'm not one of those gear-tube people, but I do it for tools that I'm interested in andmore for something that was quite interesting to me.
And also, yeah, the teaching experience helps me to...
be able to convey the concept or certain things about a device or a way to do stuff.

(41:54):
I used to do more tutorials actually up until recently and I will keep on doing them.
The thing is that people don't seem to want to watch them that much.
like people who watch them are really happy with like they're thankful, they like them,they are very happy.

(42:16):
with them they just don't get a lot of attention because YouTube is so competitive.
But at the end of the day you're right, teaching helps you learn how to complicatedconcepts and make them simple for people.

(42:37):
And also, what I've been doing lately, I just write scripts.
I used to just write outlines but these days I especially for my intros or for morecomplicated stuff I just write it word-for-word I even ordered a teleprompter the Elgato

(42:59):
prompter it's gonna come next week so no I don't have it yet you have it wow so is itgreat so so that
man I didn't so that's how you're actually looking at right that's

(43:20):
Well, I used to do the podcast like this.
So I have my camera off just to the side of my screen, right?
And I would position the window of my guests right on the edge of the screen, a littleside.
So it's like, this is how it would look if you were talking to me like two months ago.

(43:40):
But now I can do this and I'm just seeing you.
It's right through this little weird mirror thing that they have set up with this.
teleprompter.
I really like it a lot.
think.
I don't know if it's hard to say but I do feel like maybe that it just feels more natural.
No it does, I didn't really notice it man.

(44:03):
Now that you say it, I notice that you're looking straight at me, which I'm not doingbecause I'm looking at you on the screen and my camera is up above.
this kind of validates my purchase.
Well, with the script too, I've done the same thing with the intros for the podcast.
So for people that are listening and want to know, I used to do the intros with the gueststhere.

(44:28):
I'd be like, hey everybody, welcome to the music production podcast today.
I got Boyan from Low-Fi, Low Heat Beats.
you know, see, I already messed up just like winging it off my head, right?
So I found I could do a much better job.
afterwards by writing it out and saying what I really want to say and make sure I'mhitting on the things that are important to the conversation that we've already had now.

(44:51):
So I'm doing it in retrospect.
And it also saves me that opening where right before we hit record, we're talking, we'relaughing, we're comfortable.
And then we hit record and it's like, hello everybody and welcome to the music.
And now where it's all serious.
And I could sometimes feel the guests tighten up a little bit and me too, cause that wasalways my

(45:13):
the part of the podcast I dreaded the most because I'm trying to say nice things about theperson and hype them up and make people want to hear about them in front of the person.
So I'm nervous.
We haven't spoken yet.
I'm just, I like it so much better afterwards.
It's so much more comfortable, but now I can write that out and just where it used to takeme a lot of tries.

(45:39):
Cause at that point I was always trying to look at the camera when I do those intros, butnow I can just write it out and read it more or less.
no, true, true.
for videos, feel like actually, because what I thought was that writing a script wouldtake so long, just, I don't have the time and energy, I don't want to do it, when in fact,

(46:00):
it's the opposite.
It actually takes you less time because you're editing less, because you are not messingup as much when you explain stuff.
So, and there's also the anxiety of like, did I...
explain this correctly, did I pronounce this right, did I mess up the specs of this deviceor did I mess up the name of this like Ableton device or whatever.

(46:29):
like writing stuff down actually saves time.
The end result is much better so for anyone listening who wants to get into that I feellike this is a number one tip for me.
It took me a while to realize that, to be honest.
Yeah, me too.
there are certain things I'll do bullet point lists on, but I agree with you thatespecially in the beginning to be a little more structured and to make sure you're saying

(47:01):
the things you want to say to get the point across.
Now, as you mentioned, the intro...
with the intro you need to be very confident.
You need to...
people click on your video and they will be like, okay, this guy knows what he's talkingabout.
And you have to look like you know what you're talking about.
But if you're constantly searching for your thoughts and saying, and even if you edit itlater, it just doesn't come across as confident enough and you don't have...

(47:30):
you don't show the authority on the subject if you...
if you do it off the top of your head.
Some people can do it.
I mean, I'm not saying this is for everyone, but for me, and especially in a foreignlanguage, it's much better to have a script.
And I think you're right about the time.

(47:51):
It seems counterintuitive.
I got to write this out, but I can read it much better than I can kind of wing it.
I've tried it.
I've done the experiment and especially with the podcast intro, it's much nicer to writeit out, make it clean, do the guest justice.

(48:12):
True, true, true, true, true.
I remember that you were...
I remember when you, back in the day, you were doing it off the top of your head and I'venoticed that on more recent shows you are doing that and it just comes out much cleaner
and...
yeah.
I noticed it and just, like I said, that was always the part I was the most afraid about.

(48:36):
Cause if I got it wrong and I said something, and it been a couple of times where I said,hold on, let me just do that again.
And I, my guests have been really courteous with me, but I fear that it might, you know,chip away at their confidence in me.

(48:56):
Make them start saying, what am I doing here?
That's the last thing you want before you begin.
No, but now you're very experienced.
I feel like after...
What episode is this?
What's the number?
We're going to be around 390, something like that.
so many episodes here, I feel like you're quite experienced with how to handle this.

(49:21):
It takes a long time to get there, you know?
And I've had some help recently with editing.
Animus NVIDIUS, he does work.
He's got a site, perform module, and he's been editing for me for year and a half now,anyway.
So that's been really helpful because instead of spending all my time getting everythingedited, I can think a little bit more about some of these things.

(49:49):
Like maybe I should change how I'm doing the intro.
I think if I'm spending all my time doing the editing and then it's time to do the nextone, I don't get the chance to reflect as much on the process.
And he often has thoughts about how things came out and gives me a little feedback too,which is nice.
So.

(50:12):
There is something to be said about doing it a long time, but if you're never getting achance to reflect and pay attention to it, you can stagnate.
And I think that happens to me with a lot of things, because I'm trying to just keepgoing, keep going.
No, that's like having someone else helping you, that's like having a fresh set of earslisten to your music.

(50:37):
Some people do mastering just for that, they can do the mastering themselves, but just thefact that someone else with fresh ears will hear it from their perspective, that's quite
valuable, even if you can't do it yourself.

(50:57):
Yeah, even musically playing with a band over, you know, it's been the last four yearsnow, but when we first started playing, I hadn't really played with other people in a long
time, six, seven years probably.
And it was really interesting to get that instant feedback from people just as you startplaying the first chords or singing the first melody to see what's happening and trying

(51:25):
to...
produce stuff that was good on the fly, improvising even, all big helps.
That's the beauty of what we do, I guess, is there's so many ways to approach it and somany turns you can take, so many different options, and they all help.

(51:45):
But you have to also, it's not like you can just play with other people for five years andthen go off on your own and do it.
Because after a few years of not playing with other people, a little bit of time,
collaborating will do you a lot of good.
You have to keep working out all the muscles in the body of your producer.

(52:05):
You know, you can't get stuck on like one group because you'll get like kind of lopsidedand lose out on ways to improve.
No, of course, being influenced by other people is so valuable.
think I don't do it nearly enough, often enough as I should, but I can definitely feellike it's super important.

(52:30):
I mean, like people say, it takes a village to raise a child, you know, so like...
Yeah, it's not always easy, you know, it's hard to set that stuff up, but it is kind ofstrange how solitary music making has become because it used to be you had to play with

(52:51):
other people before not that long ago.
Yeah, with some downsides that as far as I know from people who do it, I haven't done it,but you know, like you have people being late for rehearsals, people being like not on the
same page as you, like there are downsides to that as well.
But there are downsides to just being in your room all by yourself to even though you werein control, you were just there alone with your own ideas, no one else to contribute their

(53:23):
experience, their vision.
So...
It's both bad and good.
Yeah, yeah, it's true.
There's always that.
You can find people that you work well with.
You learn to make it work, I guess.
I think when I was younger, I was a little more concerned with the parts going the way Iwanted them to go, and you have to play that part that way.

(53:52):
Whereas now I want you to play it the way you're going to play it.
Because I guess I've had the time to play alone to be the dictator with myself and say,has to go this I get to have every part the way I want to have it.
No, but you always have to like working with other people in any capacity or in any fieldyou need to be learning how to to do to compromise like you need to find the middle ground

(54:17):
that everyone is makes everyone happy like it's just a skill that you need to to learn ifyou want to work with others it can't can't always go exactly your way or the way you want
it to so yeah
And that's nice that we can kind of do both.

(54:37):
You can do it by yourself and have your way exactly.
And that makes it easier to enjoy what other people bring to it when you work with otherpeople.
You get that different way of going.
Sure, remember last time I collaborated we were the label that I work with, Stereo FoxRecords, they organized a beat making camp with a lot of people from Bulgaria, from my

(55:02):
country, that were in a similar, vaguely similar style, you know.
And we just gathered in, we did it think three times and the...
was a compilation that was released on vinyl three times, so that was kind of incredible.

(55:23):
this is where I learned that working with others, like not everything is going to be theway I want it to be.
And that's fine.
That's fine.
Not everyone sees stuff the way I see it.
So it's totally...
to go back to the whole not knowing what path you're on until you go on the path.

(55:45):
I mean, so many times things happen with other people when you collaborate that I wouldn'tdo and I might really feel like isn't the right idea.
But then you go down that path and you're like, actually, you you see it differently.
You get a new perspective and you start to realize like, you know what, now that we gavethat idea a chance, it actually is better than what I thought we were gonna do.

(56:10):
I think so much of what we do with the creative process is kind of walking through aforest with a blindfold on and trusting and seeing where it goes and being playful with it
and experimental because you have to build on every single next step is built on the stepbefore.

(56:33):
And if you try to be too planned out,
I think you, you miss a lot or you're forcing the square into the circle hole.
It's, it's, I do believe it's nice to have plans and to have targets to go for, but theflexibility is really important and you can't wait until the plan is perfect.

(56:56):
Like you said, you have to start making it and then you react to it.
True.
So I wanted to ask you actually, because you said, you know, experimenting with stuff,because like you are more of a singer songwriter, background or approach, but yet you are
so creative with all the electronic tools, like creating your own sounds, like doingsome...

(57:24):
Where does that come from for you?
because it's kind of like...
the way like mixing both worlds.
It's kind of cool.
I was just curious where that comes from.
Cause yeah, a lot of people that are into guitars and drums, they're not really so, soexperimental.
you like recreating, like the pack that you create are so like out there, you know, likethey're like really.

(57:51):
So yeah, I was just curious.
I think the Beatles.
I think the Beatles, where they would use things that weren't instruments to make sounds.
would, octopus's garden, they're blowing bubbles into cups to make it sound like it'sunderwater.

(58:14):
Or the anvil and Maxwell's silver hammer.
I think that sparked my interest in recording techniques and being creative with how youcome up with sounds.
And I would do stuff like that on my four track where I would try.
I remember doing a song where we were using stuff in the kitchen.

(58:38):
even like a,
dish soap container, you know, the ones you squeeze, they go like, like when you squeezeon them, that was like percussion.
we thought that was hysterical, you know, and it, because it worked too.
It had a rhythm to it.
So that was a lot of fun and it gave the music life.

(58:59):
And in the song, I just released a song the other day called tell me the answer.
And it's about
if we will see the people we've lost along the way ever again.
You know, is there an afterlife I haven't or, you know, do you, right?
And it was inspired by my dog.
And we did it with like the community.

(59:21):
have the music production club, which was really fun to all be kind of in on this sametheme.
And one of the synth sounds is my dog's voice.
I'd sampled a couple of years ago and I used that to create one of the melodies and
I could have used any synth preset to get that melody.

(59:42):
would have functioned in the song the same way, you know?
But I like, and it's like a rock song.
It's like alternative rock music that doesn't really have that kind of stuff usually.
But I like that.
I like knowing that like she's my dog's in the song, playing a musical role, less.
And I don't know if anybody listening to it would be like, that's a dog.

(01:00:08):
That sounds like a dog because I don't think it really does.
It's got a vocal quality, but it's not like rough, rough, kind of thing.
It's just like this sort of moan she made that I turned into like a melodic synth.
But if nothing else, it increases my enthusiasm while making the song.
And I'm sure that translates in different levels to the music.

(01:00:31):
So if you're aware that it's a dog sound, you
are probably aware of the energy it gave me to put into the song.
If that makes sense.
No, no, totally makes sense, like the listener won't know it's that, but you know and it'ssomething special for you and it inspired the way the whole song sounds, so I can

(01:00:56):
totally...
like your recordings like have your feelings and your passion and you want to always havea good emotional impact and having that in there made me bring something else to the
track, I think.
I can't really tell you exactly what, you know, I can't exactly.
It's not like track four has more this or that, but yeah, there's just something elsethere that I think gives it.

(01:01:25):
more life.
So I like that kind of stuff in my music.
I like bringing that in.
To stick with the pet thing, a long time ago my cat was in the room playing around whileI'm trying to record a classical guitar on a song and he wandered between my feet,

(01:01:47):
jiggling his collar and it gets into the recording.
It's a real quiet part and it was like, I don't know.
If I was super technical recording man trying to get the perfect sound, we got to do itagain.
No good.
Can't have that.
But I left it because that's my cat.
Like he made that noise.
He participated in it we're capturing a moment.

(01:02:10):
And to me that makes that song more fun.
And to this day, I still remember that particular take really well sitting there.
I remember where I was in the room and everything.
I would have totally forgotten that if I redid it and took it out.
That's a lot of think it adds a lot of character I think they did it back in the days alot especially when maybe retaking stuff was not that easy because maybe they were like

(01:02:36):
Like especially with funk in the 70s like they were all playing in the same room.
So a lot of things Yeah, exactly stuff happens and it gives it like a character like thereis stuff that couldn't have happened Any other time or with any other person so I feel
like this is

(01:02:57):
Yeah, capturing the moment.
And if you compress it, brings it out even more, I guess.
Yeah, you can accentuate it if you like.
A good example of that in song people know is like Roxanne by the Police.
In the very beginning, I think maybe it staying like sat on the piano and it made a chordand they kind of laugh.

(01:03:19):
If you listen, it's distant, but right as that song starts, like a little laughter andjust kind of like piano plunking noise.
So they left it in such a high profile song.
I haven't noticed it.
Right now.
It's like, I guess that's the thing too, is you just, people just kind of accept it and,or just don't even notice because it's just starting.

(01:03:45):
But it's, they're there, you know, those, those guys are there in the studio now.
Those, the police are there and they're having fun and they're doing this.
It's not just the song that came out of nothing and exists.
It's.
of couple people being creative and that's what happened.
And I love that they left that in.
They could have easily, even back then it would have been easy to edit that out.

(01:04:09):
Nowadays, it's so easy to edit everything out if you don't want things in there.
But sometimes, yeah, it's nice to leave that stuff in.
So I think that's the motivation for me, you know, with these weird sounds is I want tobring as much of life into this.
Because to go back to like what I said about the four track where you bounce enough timesand it sounds like there's these magical sounds that you didn't even play in the DAW is

(01:04:37):
none of that.
Negative infinity decibels when nothing's playing pure silence that doesn't exist in theworld anywhere else, but inside your DAW.
So allowing that stuff in, think is fun.
So what if the birds are chirping in the background?
Cause you left the window open.
That's what was going on.

(01:04:58):
That was the moment.
I don't do nearly enough of that I should definitely kind of inspiring to talk about thisstuff for me so really cool
of the packs you have have some of that stuff.
I felt like the 404 effects, you're injecting some of that life, some of the lo-fi synthstuff that you have.

(01:05:25):
It might not be recordings of things that are happening in the room, but there's some sortof imperfection in character in those things.
yeah, for sure.
I've always been into hip hop music, this is not the type of music that's shies away fromimperfections or low quality sound.

(01:05:52):
It doesn't need to sound pristine.
I used to listen to lot of hip hop when I was a teenager or a kid.
But then I got into electronic music, into drum and bass, techno, IDM, like I used tolisten to a lot of the Warp Records stuff, which is kind of like wild.

(01:06:16):
And so then I feel like it kind of all combined into the music that I do today and it'sreflected in the packs as well.
like I kind of like to mix more of a hip hop sound with a more experimental electronicapproach.
Maybe not necessarily these days with the music that I release.

(01:06:40):
It's not that experimental, but I've always had that fascination with...
I remember in 2008 when I first heard Flying Lotus, he's a big artist now, but back thenhe wasn't really that famous.
And I was like, so you can make hip-hop beats but then use electronic sounds?

(01:07:05):
And since, I was like, my mind was blown back then.
Like I was like, I didn't know you could do that, which is kind of obvious nowadays forpeople.
But back then, there weren't very many people doing that.
So it's always reflected in the stuff that I do.

(01:07:25):
Yeah, hip hop does, having those performances and those moments is a really big part ofit.
That even if you just think of like some of the ad-lib stuff that kind of just warming upon the mic and like, yeah, yeah, okay.
You know, it helps you picture the person like psyching themself up, getting ready to comein with this.

(01:07:49):
delivery.
It's almost like an athlete digging their feet in the ground before the whistle blows orwhatever it is.
Again, it's not really part of the song.
You could delete that out.
Get rid of that, doesn't it?
have the personality if you do that.

(01:08:12):
it creates a presence in that moment.
True, true.
Hmm.
So I've have watched a lot of your move videos.
So I wanted to talk to you a little bit about that because you seem excited about it.
I'm excited about it too.
and you're, you're embracing it, especially you mentioned like in one of the videos, youwere talking a lot about like what the criticisms are, but really how you will kind of

(01:08:40):
like those features or lack of features maybe.
I feel like with a device like this one, it's all about how you approach it with thementality that you approach it.
Because I wanted to, because there's been a lot of criticism, like let me just, around theinternet, there's been a lot of criticism about this.

(01:09:03):
it's been, I would say it's a controversial device.
Like controversial in a way that some people are loving it.
but then a lot of people don't like it, especially people who haven't used it, butanyways, I respect their opinion as well.
for me, the thing is like, so Ableton, the company who make the DAW that I use the most,have released this portable device, like a small subset of the features of life into this

(01:09:39):
small portable box.
So yeah, I would have liked to have eight tracks, for example, like for sure.
However, it is what it is.
Do I choose to be negative about it and be like, I'm not gonna use it, I'll pass on it,which is fair, like people passing on it, it's absolutely fair.

(01:10:00):
Or would I take the opportunity to have that device and make the most out of it?
So that's where my positive approach comes in.
I want to see where it will...
take me.
I know it's not the most powerful thing in the world.
It's not meant to be.
And also when companies create these products, what I've noticed people don't reallyalways forget or maybe they don't realize it.

(01:10:33):
There are a of considerations when making such a product such as this product needs to
appeal to the most amount of people so they make the most amount of sales.
But then it has to make sense for them to have it at a certain price, right?
To like be in line with their vision for their whole product line or stuff like that.

(01:10:58):
So they can't make it exactly the way you want it.
It's just not possible.
When you have stuff that's been made for
hundreds of thousands and millions of people, it's always gonna have compromises that youdon't necessarily like.
So you as a creative person, are you gonna embrace them and try to make the most out ofthem or not?

(01:11:19):
It's your choice.
That's how I feel about any, actually any product in our small niche of music production.
But especially with this one, because I feel like it got a lot of...
Some of the criticism is justified and some of it is a bit overblown, like too much in myopinion.

(01:11:43):
So it's always going to be subjective depending on the way you like to work.
It doesn't do lot of things I want to do, but then okay, I'm going to do it another wayand it may lead me to another result.
That's fine.
So that's how I look at it.
But honestly,
I'm not really super into these kinds of small groove box devices and stuff like theteenage...

(01:12:08):
Did you have an OP-1 by the way?
Do I remember correctly?
Yes, so I'm not necessarily into these...
I don't buy them like I have the SP-404 MK2 but I don't use that too much.
But this one intrigued me because it's by Ableton and this is what Ableton are giving us.
They're not gonna make this ideal device that does...

(01:12:31):
exactly what I wanted to do.
So it is what it is.
That's how I see it.
It definitely has some drawbacks, but it's a cool little thing.
Definitely a luxury.
I would say if you are like, do you need it?
Of course you don't need it.
Like I said, you need a MIDI keyboard, a computer, an audio interface, an instrument ifyou play that.

(01:12:57):
You don't need this.
It's a luxury.
The way...
Push is a luxury, And there the price is also quite luxurious.
So a lot of people feel like move is too limited.
While push is too, like they want us to have something in between, right?

(01:13:18):
Me too, but it doesn't exist.
So we make do with what we have available.
That's how I've always approached music, right?
These people, at these companies, they are creative people, smart people.
have their vision, they present us the opportunity to buy their products and use them andwe just need to make the most out of them.

(01:13:39):
We can't really dictate how it's gonna turn out because it's not our company, it's out, wedon't have the power to, like we can complain online, okay sure, but at the end of the
day...
Yeah, this is what it is.
Yeah, and we don't, you know, most of us that aren't making these things don't reallyunderstand all the things you have to consider to bring something like that to life.

(01:14:08):
And I'd have to imagine it's much more challenging when you already have an ecosystem likeAbleton does.
got live, they got pushed, they got note.
And now they want to bring something else in and they're seeming to connect it all, whichis very interesting.
And I'm, very excited to see what happens.

(01:14:28):
And I know it's in beta right now.
I just haven't gotten around to try it, but like push is going to have access to the cloudand you'll be able to transfer things much nicer.
Cause the transfer from note to live is really cool.
And the way they have the web browser for samples and stuff is, is when I first saw that Iwas like, okay, this is getting interesting.

(01:14:49):
This is this is exciting and I could see this going places But yeah to make it all fit inthat's tough Some of the limitations like the four tracks I Don't really have much of a
problem with actually Yeah, hope you wanted four tracks also well you can do a lot withfour tracks and now

(01:15:18):
Move is not meant to finish your song on really.
It's part of the process, right?
And as you said, that does put it in this sort of like luxury.
You don't need it.
In fact, you kind of need something else to go with it to really get the full use out ofit.
You kind of need live to take your tracks to the end.

(01:15:38):
Although there might be people that prove us wrong on that, you know, finding workaroundsand all that, but with that in mind, it...
is a lot of fun to see what I can come up with sitting down on a couch or even outside ifit's nice enough where I don't even need headphones.

(01:15:59):
The speaker is there.
The microphone is there for sampling.
And I love that it just randomly gives you four instruments to play with.
They give you the drums, the bass, the keys, and the lead.
And it's always random.
You never know what you're going to get.
That's a lot of fun and it just throws you into creation real fast.
Just start making.

(01:16:20):
not empty, you need to search for sounds.
It's like a guitar basically, like when you pick up an acoustic guitar, you just makesound out of the...
immediately, so it's kind of like that.
It has that.
Sometimes my acoustic guitar blows my mind.
There's no batteries.
I don't have to charge it and connect wires.
It's doing everything that the technology is trying to get back to.

(01:16:43):
Right?
Like we have these wireless things now.
And Move is pretty cool like that.
You can just open it up.
You can play it.
You can just play it like an instrument.
Just have fun.
You don't have to be making a song necessarily.
You can...
Sample things really nicely.
I think it functions pretty well as a controller also For live I've had a lot of fun Youknow, it's very portable small

(01:17:08):
Yeah, yeah, because I found out with I found with because I didn't get the I didn't getpush three a day I had it for a month I was to send it to me just to to try it out and
like maybe make a couple of videos with it and I was considering buying it but at the endI realized that it's just too big and for me it doesn't really offer that much of an

(01:17:31):
advantage to push to that I already have so and also I've seen that you actually
like on your push you actually play the chromatic mode or you play the pads with the...
or...
chromatic because it looks like guitar because it's
which makes sense for people who are used to playing the guitar, but for me it's like...

(01:17:52):
Nope.
I prefer the regular keyboard, so...
Push is like...
It just takes up so much space that I don't really utilize the whole 64-pad layout.
But mainly I wouldn't really take it anywhere because it's so big and heavy.

(01:18:13):
Do you have the...
Do you have Push 3x?
Do you have the standalone?
standalone, yep.
Yeah, like for me, and again, that's basically a matter of how you prefer to organize yourwork workspace.
But for me, just so big and heavy, man.
Like, push one was small.

(01:18:33):
every push they make is bigger than the previous.
Like, I can't imagine push four how big it's gonna be, so.
Yeah, it's great that you can just pick up your push and go someplace and play it.
It's not as portable as I guess I'd hoped it would have been.

(01:18:56):
Like you said, it is.
It's a bit heavy and it's...
You need like a big enough bag to fit it in and you'll need headphones.
But once you sit down with it, yeah, it's great.
It's so much fun.
I love the pads.
I think though, if I were to do it again, I'd probably get the non-standalone push and amove and save a little bit of money.

(01:19:25):
Yeah.
I don't bring the push around as much as I thought I would.
That's the thing, like the whole thing about making music on the beach or in a car likethey have on the move commercials.

(01:19:45):
People like the idea of it.
It's kind of like you imagine doing it, but you actually probably not gonna do it.
Like you're probably not gonna make beats in the subway while you're waiting for the trainor at least that's what I've learned.
from my experience, it's like you like the idea of it, but you end up not necessarilydoing it.

(01:20:10):
for push, like obviously, but you get the real power of life.
that's the thing.
Like you get like this actual Ableton life running on it.
So that's kind of incredible.
Like what other major DAW runs in a hardware box, right?
That's kind of insane.
Yeah.
It's almost too much.

(01:20:33):
because it, you know, you can put everything in there.
You can put all here.
It's amazing.
It's, I'm walking around with like all my sounds in this thing.
And it's a lot of fun just as a synthesizer to just play.
I actually find that's how I wind up with it the most is just I'm sitting on the couch andI'm just playing music.

(01:20:57):
kind of without recording and just enjoying it as an instrument on its own.
I remember when it came out, think it was Rachel K Collier was on a mountain top drones.
I bet she hasn't been back there with the push.
I'm just going to wager a guess.

(01:21:18):
You know that.
will get her on the podcast and you ask her.
But...
you been back to that mountaintop with the whole shit?
If you want to make a day out of it, you can do things like that and it is fun.
I've certainly done that.
I've taken it out in the backyard and had a microphone.

(01:21:39):
But it's a little bit of a setup.
It's a little bit of a setup, you know, where move is just, you don't need to just grabit.
It is very nice like that.
And it's fun that we have all these tools and yeah, like I I'm like you, I, the computeris a huge instrument.
And for me, and I do love it that I have it.

(01:22:01):
It's if you took it away, I'd be like, need it.
but it is nice to get away from it too.
And those two devices do allow you to do that a bit.
Sometimes I just want to make music and not have to record it.
I kind of.
envy people sometimes that just take an acoustic guitar into the backyard and just playand they don't ever even think about recording it.

(01:22:25):
They just want to strum it after work and relax.
like music used to be way back in the day before recording was invented, right?
You played it and it was up in the air and it was never like gonna be repeated again.
So, yeah.
Now there's always a red light recording it.
yeah, yeah.
No, but actually like to, but seriously, like Capture, Capture is a game changer for me.

(01:22:51):
Maybe for you, like you probably wish you did it for audio as well, because you play likeguitar and stuff.
But for me, when I mostly record MIDI, so for me it's like, I didn't record this, but Ican just hit a button and I have it.
That's kind of amazing.
So.
the capture feature is...

(01:23:13):
that's how I do it now.
I don't worry about...
I don't set the tempo, I don't set the BPM anymore.
I just play something and it figures it out for me.
Yeah, and it's actually the tempo that's in you at that particular moment.
It's not a number.
You're like, I'm going to set this number.
But that may not be your inner rhythm at that given moment, if that makes sense.

(01:23:38):
Maybe I'd come up with an idea that I have to figure out the tempo and you know, you'dalways be a little too fast or too slow or maybe you weren't even sticking to one tempo in
the course of that performance.
So with capture, just takes that out.
Someone else figures it out for you.

(01:23:58):
Sure, it works really well.
It's kind of like magic actually, like how well it maps the tempo that I've...
I don't know how they do it, but it works perfectly.
I don't know how...
point where I don't even worry.
just, when I'm first making a track, I'll just play, whether it's drums or keys, I'll justplay, play.

(01:24:22):
Worst case scenario, it doesn't understand where I think one should be.
You know, the first beat.
But it has the information.
I can just drag the start points and do a little correction quick.
And then I'm usually pretty good.
But that's,
Such a great feature, because again, takes the stuff I don't like about the computer outof it.

(01:24:46):
Like, OK, let's set the tempo, and now I got to listen to a click, which is the leastmusical thing to try to play along with ever.
No, no, true, true.
Also, when you say the computer not being musical, one thing that controllers helped me,because I also use Native Instruments machine a lot, not really that much so much these

(01:25:08):
days, but I used to use it a lot before I got push.
I still use it sometimes because it's like a different person, like it's more physical,right?
Because it's like the moment when you touch the mouse, you kind of get out of this...
rhythm, this physical way to express yourself.
You're kind of pointing at a very precise place in the screen and it kind of gets you.

(01:25:32):
So having these controllers like push or move or anything else, it just makes it morephysical and the end result is more musical.
Yeah, in those early stages, it's kind of critical you stay in that creative phase whereyou're just playing, moving, the physical aspect of it.

(01:25:54):
Because as soon as you start getting technical and questioning things or clicking aroundand dragging, that's a different character in your brain that comes out.
yeah, it's a total buzzkill.
It's a total buzzkill or getting into like, I don't know, engineering stuff, like EQingstuff before you even have an idea, like, what are you doing?

(01:26:19):
Like, just try to get the idea as fast as possible and then fix stuff that needs fixing orset up a template that allows you to work faster.
But I find that, yeah, getting into the technical stuff, as you say.
early in the process, you just waste time and energy on stuff that prevents you fromexpressing your idea.

(01:26:46):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I like that working as fast as possible approach, especially in the beginning, justplowing through things, even if it means I'm ruining things in certain ways.
Maybe I'm committing MIDI to audio or recording directly the effects directly in.

(01:27:08):
It just, again, like I keep coming back to this idea of like, you don't know the pathyou're on and you've got to start walking it.
And those types of things help me make those steps.
And sometimes you make a mistake and, but I think the net...
Gain, you if you weigh it out from when you actually make progress and get things done andfinish is so much higher compared to the amount of times you've ruined stuff.

(01:27:36):
Cause even if I've ruined things, can, my next decision will be to compensate for that insome way.
Not true, because also you get tired.
Like, I get tired.
Honestly, I get tired.
I need to have as much of the idea out as possible before I get tired, before myenthusiasm diminishes.

(01:27:59):
When I'm that creative rush, I need to take advantage of it.
And so...
I don't want to be like, man, I'm tired, I need to go to the bathroom, need to, I'mhungry, I'm like, you know, I need to go to bed because I have a thing tomorrow or
whatever.

(01:28:20):
So you need to get down the idea as good as possible before this moment.
That's how it works for me at least.
You don't have unlimited energy to work on stuff all the time.
You need to take advantage of the moment.

(01:28:41):
Yeah, because you might not really get back to that.
You can't necessarily find that same space you were in.
Maybe you were at 11 o'clock at night and you were that day created some mood in you, someattitude that was making this music.
then the next day it might not be there anymore.

(01:29:04):
yeah, just for me, I think the first
hour or two of any song, that's when most of it happens.
80 to 90 percent and then the rest is detail work.
No, true.
Most of my best tracks that I've released, that I've made, with some exceptions, but veryfew, most of them were done...

(01:29:29):
the bulk of the production was done in a very intense like three-hour session.
because of exactly what you said.
You're capturing the moment and the mood and the next day it may feel different.
But if it's like 90 % done, you're good.

(01:29:51):
then you can get in that more technical, engineering kind of space.
sure.
But also you shouldn't overdo it because you may end up ruining it.
I can't like...
Most of the time when I'm like, master...
because I master my own stuff, like I just don't...
I don't have like...

(01:30:12):
Even though I released through a label, I don't have a mastering engineer to...
to like, the budget doesn't allow it.
So...
And I can do it, like there's no problem, especially with tools like Ozone that have likemaster assistant or whatever.
Man, my test export that I export from the session just to have it on my phone like 90 %of times it sounds better than when I focus on mastering it and trying to fit all the

(01:30:44):
tracks to sound coherent with each other.
Like most of the time the stuff that I've bounced to just have on my phone it justcaptures the vibe the best for f...
for some reason so I try not to not to over do that

(01:31:04):
Yeah.
You wind up cleaning it too much or something goes over producing.
I've done that so many times where I there's a couple of times in particular that reallystick out where I decide I'm really going to work on this mix and get it right.
then take all the plugins off or listen to the old version.

(01:31:26):
And you're just like, it sounds worse.
Yeah.
you work on it for a certain time and you get further away from your initial vibe thatsparked the whole thing.
But you don't realize it and at some point you're like, something is missing.

(01:31:49):
It's not the thing that inspired me.
That's why I think it happens.
You're gradually ruining it, thinking you're improving it.
right.
Good reason to work fast so that you don't give yourself the time to do that.
I think a lot of our learning, we learn a lot in these processes, but every time you do anew song and go through the process again, that's the real learning.

(01:32:17):
That's like doing your reps at the gym or something.
Yeah.
percent.
Learning by doing, exactly.
Like, you need to know the basics, okay, sure.
Like, if you don't know how to use live or your DAW or the basics of production, how torecord stuff like audio interfaces, mics, blah, blah, okay, sure, you need to learn this.

(01:32:39):
But after a certain base level of knowledge that you need to get under your belt, I thinkyou just need to...
to do it as often as possible for many years and that's how you get half decent at it likethere is no no way to because I feel like people have the tendency to procrastinate it

(01:33:03):
procrastinate on it just by watching tutorials trying to learn stuff it's useful to learnbut also you're not gonna improve nearly as fast
as someone who is just doing it every day, all day, if they have the time.

(01:33:27):
Yeah, we do that.
We want new stuff.
You kind of mentioned something earlier before we started talking about like theconsumerism and the artist and there it's sometimes I think we can become almost like
collectors rather than

(01:33:47):
Mm-hmm.
like somebody that has the full collection of like, I don't know, the entire Spider-Manseries, but hasn't read them yet.
You know, or I guess it's a lot easier to buy something than it is to finish a song, to gothrough the process, the creative.

(01:34:13):
Cause you know, you know, if you lay down that money,
on Amazon or Sweetwater or whatever it is, the product will arrive.
You will complete that goal.
But when you open up your DAW or whatever you want to work on, you pick up yourinstrument, you don't know if you're going to get anything good that you like.
If you're going to succeed in that.

(01:34:37):
I've found out that people that are really artistic, that are real artists, like I don'tmean to sound pretentious or anything like that, but there is that thing.
They're probably not as obsessed about gear, having the latest thing, buying the latestthing.

(01:34:59):
Sure, we all like new gear, but that just gives us a small dopamine rush.
for a certain period of time and then it's no longer new.
It's like with every product that you buy.
So that's like a problem of consumerism in general, not just in music production, butsince we are artists, we are supposed to express our artistic side.

(01:35:26):
We should be careful with that, trying to rationalize everything.
Like it doesn't have this feature or that feature or...
this machine is better than this one or that's that that...
Man, that's consumerism talk.
That's not how artists...
Right.

(01:35:46):
artists think about stuff like this.
So I try to...
256 megabytes of memory?
That's not artist talk, you're right.
We're talking specs here.
Exactly, the talk about like, cause that's very relevant about Push, cause when theyreleased it, people were like, man, how come it only has an i3 processor?

(01:36:13):
Man, it's a drum machine, like what do you mean an i3?
Like these people know what they're doing, just if you want it, buy it, get it, make somemusic, like who cares what processor it has, like we're not like computer geeks, or maybe
we are, but like if you want to make music, you just need to focus on the...
on how it makes you feel, how it helps you express yourself and not specs.

(01:36:38):
Although, to be fair, I feel like teenage engineering are taking it a bit too far, becausetheir latest, like not the latest, but the one they released last year, the KO2, the
sampler, it had 64 megabytes and they are trying to like market it as, know, theselimitations will make you better, which...

(01:37:00):
kind of maybe true sometimes but also it gives people false hopes because they areuninspired with the tools they have and they're like so i'm gonna buy this limited box and
it's gonna inspire me to do this and that that's rarely the case especially in the longterm in the long term you need to find it inside yourself like not relying on products to

(01:37:28):
to
make your music better so that was not supposed to be like a dig at teenage engineeringbut I do remember that specific spec which kind of stuck in my mind so that's why
As a company, they are probably at the, get more controversy in everything they do, youknow?

(01:37:57):
And part of the reason is because they're doing weird stuff.
So that's, you know, if they were doing everything everyone else is doing, you know,whatever, no one would bat an eye.
I mean, I remember when the OP1 came out and
No one could believe it.
It's a toy.
And I think it was like $700 back then and which was a lot, but now it's like almost threetimes that.

(01:38:26):
I got it when it was relatively new.
It was like 2011 and
I think that was basically the year it came out.
It was very new.
Yeah.
As soon as I picked it up, was like, like, okay, this thing's got some weight.
It doesn't feel like a toy.
And I mean, compared to a DAW, it was limited, but there's so much you can do with thatthing.

(01:38:50):
And I really loved it.
I loved the compact form.
I felt like every time I played it, it was a little bit surprising.
I liked that.
The controls, the four knobs weren't telling me that I was using a filter cutoff at 2K,you know?
Instead it was like, you know, like a, yeah, it was like a boxer and he's changing hispose or it was a monkey playing the drums.

(01:39:16):
And you just thought about it differently.
It was some weird abstract image that you're moving around and it's changing the toneabout.
And yeah, it got you thinking with your...
imagination more than your brain.
And it was, I still love it.
It's an amazing piece of gear.

(01:39:37):
don't have anything like it still.
Yeah, there's a couple of weird things about it maybe, even some hardware, it's a littlenoisy.
Especially if you plug it into the USB, there's some kind of weird interference that goeson.
But that happens with a lot of devices due to the bus power can create that for somedevices.

(01:40:00):
Right.
Yeah.
But you know, they continue to just do interesting stuff.
When they came out with the pocket operators, those were very interesting.
I really am happy we have a teenage engineering out there.
I'm not going to get everything they've got.

(01:40:21):
Some things I would love to try some of new OPXY and the OP1 field looks amazing.
It's just...
a little bit out of reach at this point, you know?
And I guess I'm kind of really in that phase where I'm very well aware that it's not goingto be another thing, another toy.

(01:40:49):
Most of the things I wind up getting get way underused anyway.
Exactly.
I used to think that buying new things will improve things.
And now, for a while now, I've realized that that is absolutely not the case.
So I'm not like...

(01:41:12):
you know, trying to...
Yeah, but T8 Engineering, I think it's been established by now that they are mostly adesign company.
So that's why their things are so different and weird.
And they do collaborations with IKEA.
So like they have products in IKEA that are designed by them.

(01:41:34):
They also designed this AI assistant, the Rabbit R1.
I'm not sure if you've heard about it.
but it was this little orange thing that was super controversial again because it didn'tdeliver what it was promised it would so they it was supposed to be like an AI system that
you carry with yourself and you tell it ask it to do stuff and it does like order foodlike ask questions but obviously stuff that you can also do with your phone so that's why

(01:42:05):
it was it kind of didn't take off I feel but they designed that
So it had kind of like a very striking design and they've been involved with some othercompanies as well, like Nothing, which is a phone company.
They have like a phone that's designed by one of the people from Teenage Engineering.
So they're like a design company that's involved in a lot of mainstream projects that arefar more, that have far bigger reach than our small niche, because music production, like

(01:42:34):
for us, it's like this, you know.
like this thing that's so vast but in the grand scheme of things it's a drop in the oceancompared to the tech industry as a whole.
So I think they're doing a lot of that as well.
That's our modern day, right?
Where if I go on social media, everybody in the world has synthesizers and is DAW, right?

(01:43:00):
And you know, there's other people, everyone in the world is obsessed with like carengines or whatever you're into, you know, like you get that, that's all you get.
So it really does feel like, you know, you could go up to anybody and like, whatcompressor do you use?
Like they'd be like, well, I'll tell you.
Yeah, no, exactly.
I get that feel too.

(01:43:21):
It's sometimes it's hard to realize that random people on the street like have no ideawhat I'm doing.
Like they have absolutely no clue that this stuff exists at all.
So, yeah.
Well, yeah, anyone I know pretty much that sees anything I do online are like, what areyou doing?

(01:43:43):
You keep coming up talking about all this weird stuff.
I'm like, yeah, it's talking about making music.
I don't know what else to say.
But it's cool to have forward thinking companies like that.
I guess once in a while, there's going to be a miss and we...
people learn from that, people get inspired from that.

(01:44:06):
mm-hmm no no true true true I think it's like we already established it's hard to create aproduct put it out there so I'm not like no disrespect to to to them for anything they do
although I did order I did get the ko2 back when it was released and it came with a brokenfader which was like a very

(01:44:34):
I mean, everybody knows about that at this point, but it was basically packaged like ifyou get a box of chocolates, it's better protected than this thing.
It was just in plain thin cardboard.
So which I mean, I realized it was supposed to be like a seven inch record.
Like it was supposed to be like this designer type of box with Mohammed Ali or maybe Ithink.

(01:45:00):
yeah, I think it was Muhammad Ali, yeah.
I think it was a bit too much to ship an expensive piece of electronics without anyprotection.
honestly, I just returned it and I lost interest.
Yeah, but I'm sure they learned their lesson from that.

(01:45:21):
There's an interesting time in the creation of these tools.
I just talked to, and it'll be on the podcast, but he works for Serato Nick McLaren.
And, he was talking about, you know, now we can, I mean, we have software where you justpress a button and it makes a song for you.

(01:45:44):
Right.
Like you've got.
the AI didn't?
yeah, exactly, yeah.
So like you can go on the internet and be like, I'm on a country song about a guy thatlikes to ride motorcycles in the Grand Canyon or something, and they'll make it for you.
And then you've got like the music creation software, like Take Live with all thesegenerative tools that are starting to come in now, the MIDI transformers and all of that.

(01:46:11):
And...
Where's the line?
know, where do you, how easy do you want to make it for people where it's still fun?
It's still rewarding or do we want the where I never thought of it that way that a companylike that would have to say, look, we want to have these features that make music making

(01:46:33):
interesting and fun and fast, but how fast is too fast.
I mean if you remove the human entirely that's like I'm not sure if that was a rhetoricalquestion but I'll answer it anyway because the way I see it is like the moment you
kind of rhetorical, but it is a real question that they really have to face now.

(01:46:54):
Yeah, I feel like if you remove the human entirely, just writing a prompt for me it's notenough human input.
Maybe some people, other people will feel different, I respect that.
But for me when you remove the human entirely that's when...
I might as well just do something else, you know.
I might as well just...

(01:47:16):
not do that.
Because I'm not gonna get the satisfaction of creating something.
the feel of accomplishment that I've created something that's unique, that's expressingme.
So yeah, that's where I would draw the line.

(01:47:37):
I think people will lose interest in that stuff too.
You know, some of the AI stuff that came out like, it's...
Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys singing, Smells Like Teen Spirit.
Okay, cool, let me hear it.
You listen to it, but I'm not downloading it.

(01:48:00):
I don't even listen through the whole thing even.
And at this point, I don't even care.
I don't even need to hear it.
But in the beginning, it was kind of like, that's funny.
It really does sound like them.
I don't know if it's gonna get so good that people don't care.
People that...
just want some music in the background, don't care, or if maybe we'll start to wantsomething that is clearly human, which might mean more imperfections, I don't know.

(01:48:29):
Now this stuff is improving at a very fast rate so it will probably get a lot better.
And it's good even now.
But...
Yeah, at this point I feel like background music and people who don't really care aboutmusic would be the prime users of these tools.

(01:48:59):
Although obviously with music production we have AI tools that help us with...
Why are they taking away the creative tasks, right?
Because when you help us with the boring tasks, like RX, I'll talk RX 11 or RX whatever...
removing some breaths or noise or again, I'm just mentioning iZotope because I have theirtools but other companies are doing it as well like AI master assistant and stuff that's

(01:49:29):
cool because that's me is the stuff that's tedious that's fine but why are you taking awaythe stuff that's fulfilling and enjoyable like no
Yeah, I saw a meme somewhere.
I forget it exactly.
But the point was basically, why are we getting AI to do the art and stuff?

(01:49:51):
I want AI to do the chores so I can make the art.
I don't want to have it do the art so now I only do my chores kind of thing.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's interesting times, I suppose.
We'll figure it out, I guess.
you know, just like, I guess, even if you think of something like Auto-Tune or drummachines, people still like to sing.

(01:50:14):
People still like to sing well.
People still like to play the drums.
People still like to work on that skill.
So, yeah, I don't think that, at least the creation of it.
as long as we still can have fun doing it.
Sure.

(01:50:39):
So do you have anything new you're excited about?
Anything you want to share with the people that you're working on?
so I wouldn't necessarily share stuff that I'm working on because you know how you get thesatisfaction of Saying it and then you get demotivated to actually do it so I would skip

(01:51:03):
that Like when I have something I will just release to people you know, but a month ago Ireleased my latest EP don't look back on all streaming platforms.
So that was my latest
project with my I do instrumental music So no vocals and stuff, but that was my recentproject still quite new doing pretty well on on the streaming platforms So I'm happy with

(01:51:31):
that Definitely want to get more into doing bandcamp releases like maybe on my own becauseI read these to release these through the label on the streaming platforms But I want to
get my bandcamp going
but I haven't really done so much with it.
But yeah, that's my latest project.
Don't look back on all streaming platforms.

(01:51:52):
Maybe people will check it out.
Maybe they will like it.
Yeah, I'll put it in the show notes so I can check it out from here.
Yeah.
I think they should check out some of your packs too.
You've got a knack for cool sounds and stuff with feeling.
Man, coming from you, that's quite the compliment.

(01:52:14):
So, appreciate that.
well, I feel that way, yeah.
I like what you do a lot.
And it's nice that the music is so good.
It's great to learn this stuff and hear your thoughts, but it makes the whole experienceenjoyable just to get to hear some of that going on too.

(01:52:34):
And to hear not just what things can do, but...
you know, in words, right, technical stuff, but to see it in action is great.
To see how you're putting the stuff you're sharing, the stuff you're teaching into actualpractice is awesome and it's great that it sounds so good.
Man, thank you so much.

(01:52:55):
We appreciate it.
Yeah, well, it was great having you.
I guess probably the main headquarters for you is lowheatbeats.com, right?
And then the YouTube channel.
it a bit, but that links to all the packs, it has links to Spotify, to YouTube, so that'sone that you can put in the description, but I will be overhauling it and maybe I'll see

(01:53:19):
where my packs will reside in the future, because for now it's linked to Gumroad, likewhen you open a pack it opens the Gumroad pop-up, but yeah, that's the place where you
find all the other links to all my YouTube.
streaming platforms and stuff but I'm on all platforms except for TikTok

(01:53:42):
Okay.
Very good.
I'll put the links in there and thanks for coming on.
Man, pleasure was all mine.
I'm not just saying it out of courtesy.
It really was.
So thank you so much.
Thank you.
All right, we did it.
We have completed a podcast.

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