Plug-in Development and Live Performance with Soap Audio's Tom Carpenter

Tom Carpenter is a musician, producer, and plug-in developer. He is currently on tour with his 3-piece indie electronic band, Moon Tower. Tom is a co-founder of Soap Audio, who recently released Soap Voice Cleaner, a plug-in designed to easily clean up spoke word audio. I spoke with Tom about his tour, Moon Tower, and Soap Voice Cleaner. Tom shared his thoughts on creativity and collaboration in both a band setting and as a programmer. We also explored how Tom has found multiple avenues to build a career in the music industry.

This episode is sponsored by Baby Audio and their new plug-in Tekno!
Save 15% with the code: MPP15 - https://babyaud.io/tekno 

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

• Soap Voice Cleaner - https://www.musehub.com/plugin/soap-voice-cleaner
• Moon Tower - https://thisismoontower.com
• Muse Hub - https://www.musehub.com
• Audacity - https://www.musehub.com/app/audacity
• Abberant DSP - https://aberrantdsp.com
• Beat Link Trigger - https://github.com/Deep-Symmetry/beat-link-trigger
• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com
• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc 
• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book
• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit
• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast
• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store
• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

*Edit - in the show I mistakenly mentioned Sony's involvement in Audacity. I was confusing Audacity with Acid, which was at one time owned by Sony. 

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

And don’t forget to visit my site https://BrianFunk.com for music production tutorials, videos, and sound packs.

Brian Funk

 

 

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Okay, Tom, welcome to the Music Production Podcast.
Good to have you.
Thanks for having me, Brian.
Excited to be doing this today.
Yeah, I'm excited to talk to you too.
It's been nice to get to know you for a few minutes before we started and hearing aboutsome of the work you're doing.
Likewise, yeah, I'm a fan of the podcast, so I'm very honored to be asked to come on.

(00:25):
Yeah, cool.
I think I'd like to tell people exactly what you're doing right now, because I thinkthat's pretty fun right now.
You're not at home.
No, I'm not at home.
I was telling you before we hit the record button here, I'm slightly embarrassed havingwatched the other Brian Funk podcast to not have my cool synthesizer set up behind me like

(00:46):
yourself.
um I am in a hotel right now.
I am on tour at the moment with my band.
very exciting and it's um I think it's kind of a cool indication of like some of whatyou're doing because of course you've got the Soap Audio company with the voice cleaner

(01:07):
plug-in that's doing really well playing in a band producing music on your own you'redoing a lot of different things at once to make this all work I think that's how the dream
works these days is we find lots of different avenues to pursue the music and the art andthe love of it
Yeah, certainly.
And yeah, I can talk for a while about my, you the joy I grab from every little differentangle of that.

(01:34):
But specifically being on the road here, it's always a joy.
We haven't, the band hasn't been on the road for about a year and a half now, and we're inabout week three of this current tour.
So starting to miss home a little bit, but we're about a week and a half out.
So it'll be great.
can go back home and hug all my microphones and...

(01:55):
get back to a decent listening environment.
playing on stage every night is its own joy.
Yeah, and you guys are, you said an indie electronic three piece.
m
Indie electronic three piece.
I said right before, yeah, uh don't want to sound too self congratulatory because this isnot where we've achieved.

(02:15):
But our North Star, as it were, of what we want to sound like is if the killers were toever work with Daft Punk.
So we've got the love for the classic drum machines and all the um Ed Banger stuff.
If we would talk about like, Sebastian and Mr.
Wazzo, Daft Punk, DJ Mehdi, Justice.

(02:37):
Oofy, um all that kind of like 12-bit aliasing, way too side chains, limited as hecksounds mixed with some of those like alt-rock guitars and also um all three of us in the
band are very big fans of pop music and well-written songs.
We talk about, know, till the cows come home, you can have really experimental...

(03:04):
groundbreaking sounds and mixtures that haven't been done.
But to us, what really pushes it across the edge into fantastic is when you've got thatgreat song that you're producing.
Yeah, a song is usually the king.
I it doesn't matter how you dress it.
A good song is a good song.

(03:25):
Which is, I say is a knob-turner.
So I'm not necessarily a lyricist, but that is, you know, king.
So I want to ask you a little bit about how you guys work the band because I told you Iplay in a three piece garage rock band.
I play the guitar and sing, bass player and he sings and drummer and he even singssometimes too.

(03:51):
And we have very defined roles, right?
Now, anytime I've jammed with people electronically, I've got...
Ableton live open and I can be everything right I can be the drummer I can be the leadsynth I could be whatever I want and a lot of the You know beginning phases is total chaos

(04:11):
because that's what everyone's doing everyone's used to doing everything so now we'reworking together Do you guys have defined roles that you play or is it a song by song?
How do you manage?
What are you guys doing because one person these days can easily take over?
I mean, I will say one thing that we're proud of is that on this current rig that we'reset up on, um we are using Ableton, but Ableton is only used as a uh brain for which we

(04:39):
send out program changes and MIDI out to our external gear.
So we aren't using Ableton for tracks or anything like that.
What we have going is I am doing the bass and the rhythm.
And then we've got Devin, who's doing more of the harmony.
and some of the melody type stuff and we've got Jacob who is doing the lead vocal and someof the lead guitar work.

(05:02):
we've got as far as uh gear on stage we've got a Moog Sub 37, an X DJ, a single X DJ, umthe ones that are pretty much CDJs, and two MIDI controllers, an Axe FX 3 guitar
processor, and the brain of our rig which is

(05:23):
built around a MOTU Ultralight MK3.
And to really nerd out on what's going on, we m are using a open source software calledBeat Link Trigger that is hijacking some of the ethernet connections that would normally
be used intra pioneer here to be able to share BPM and hot cue information and loop andall that stuff.

(05:51):
between two Pioneer devices.
These awesome people that are developing this tool called Beat Link Trigger have opened upthe kind of walled garden that is Pioneer so that you can start using that.
uh I mean, there's a lot of information there uh in various different ways.
So now we've got Hot Cues on the XDJ being able to send us to Ableton Locators.

(06:16):
We've got Ableton Link, which is...
slave basically to the master tempo fader on the uh XDJ.
So we're able to loop or speed songs up or slow sections down or anything like that.
Keep things very jammy and very modular.

(06:37):
And then um we've got Ableton interfacing with the Axe FX to send program changes for ourguitars and whatnot.
I'm also playing bass.
on stage along with the Moog Sub-37.
ah We've got Ableton Drum Rack set up for the SPD.

(06:57):
We've got the MPKs for the different sounds that are either sampled or you you gotta keepthe sense low overhead for live performance.
ah Yeah, the setup is, it's a lot of fun.
We've spent a long time dialing it in.
And like you were saying, the organization of it is really so that we can do those thingsthat we have struggled to do in the past when it's kind of been a guy doing tracks with an

(07:26):
APC-40 and then a guy playing guitar on top of that.
And that's the jamming.
Like maybe tonight we want to play the song faster.
Maybe we want to loop this chorus five times.
Maybe we want to do the end of the set, do that loop at Nazium, something like that.
So you got some flexibility then.
You can actually just kind of communicate it with the other members,

(07:50):
Yeah, yeah, it's much more, uh, it's a lot of people turning a lot of different knobs onstage and, and it's a lot of fun.
Yeah, that sounds cool.
It sounds pretty technical with especially like hijacking the pioneer stuff and being ableto convert that in.

(08:11):
definitely took some trial and error to get that going.
um Again, the Beat Link Trigger team is awesome.
If you've seen any videos, they're starting to go viral right now of like Deadmau5 using aCDJ to play Skyrim on like his Xbox.
It's that same.

(08:32):
It's silly.
But you can use that.
You can hijack the information.
Pioneer Link information.
And hijack sounds like a dirty word.
It's really just taking that information and using it in a different purpose.
Hmm.
So that, but it's converting it into, guess, like a language everything else canunderstand.

(08:56):
Yeah, totally.
Kind of intro program.
I have to imagine this did not happen like that the first time you guys got together.
Even when I play by myself with my MIDI controllers in Ableton, Live, and whatever, it'slike this living organism that is always changing.

(09:20):
Yeah.
hearing something like that might be a little intimidating maybe for somebody that'sthinking about getting into it, but it's one of the things I always say is like, just
start as simple as possible.
I'm kind of curious where you guys began with it.
Yeah, well, we always wanted, so we've been a band for about 10 years now.

(09:40):
And the name of the band is Moon Tower.
And we started off, it's like that Linklater movie, Dazed and Confused.
We were college kids, they say at the end of the movie, party at the Moon Tower.
And we wanted to throw these Moon Tower parties.
were at USC, were dumb college kids.

(10:00):
And we...
weren't worried about releasing music or trying to promote music or anything like that.
We just moreover wanted to put on an awesome electronic show, sync up lights with it, anddo things, you know, interestingly.
And I was an Ableton nerd and also a lighting nerd and something like that.

(10:21):
But when we started, it was as simple as I had in APC 40.
We knew that we wanted to get some guitars going.
So we kind of just got a four on the floor.
uh a microphone, a couple guitars and started jamming together before we knew it.
We started building out songs and put that show together.

(10:44):
Moreover, to say, what's the best show we can do?
What's the best jam that we can really get out of this moment?
Not as much focused on what's going to be the best thing to drive Spotify or the best wayto represent this album that's finished.
It was more about the love of the live performance at the get-go.
That's cool.

(11:05):
And that speaks to what you can do with electronic based music these days.
Cause it, I think, you know, for the most part, it's been like, we've recorded the song,we've produced the song, and now we have to figure out how to get it into the live
situation.
But you guys are jamming, writing the song more like a real band does, like a normal likerock kind of thing.

(11:31):
you play it out for a while then maybe you might go back to record it.
Certainly, and I mean the music came out and then we played again in the way.
So there is that, you do want to get on a train at a certain point in time.
But um yeah, I think the ethos of it has always been live-centric.

(11:52):
I'm excited about what we're doing right now on this tour.
We're playing our album that has yet to come out.
um It's locked and playing that in full every night.
So doing a little bit more like we did in college where it was, um you don't necessarilyknow the music if you're coming to the show, if you happen to be a fan, you may not hear

(12:15):
exactly the stuff you've heard in the past, but it lets us all kind of live in the momenta little bit more.
And it's been really rewarding.
We couldn't be prouder of this new album.
So it's getting the real treatment in front of a crowd.

(12:36):
Yeah, that sounds like a great time.
I'm just so happy these days we can do that, that kind of stuff and really play theseinstruments like instruments.
Like we can actually make this kind of music without it having to be.
so rigid and kind of maybe, you know, like just pressing play and we're going.

(12:56):
um
certainly.
And I mean, that's the way, even when we're not on stage in the studio, that I think weprefer to think about music creation.
uh Be it, have uh a song that was written on acoustic guitar and now we want to produce itout, or we have kind of a loop or a jam or something like that going more in the box and

(13:20):
we want to write to that.
I the idea is that we want to be more of gardeners rather than...
Let's stay rigid here.
It's a...
And then afterward, we do end up, you know, doing the subtraction process to try andwhittle down what was sometimes a long thing or sometimes bloated into, like I was saying,

(13:41):
the most well-written song inside of that.
And I have to shout out Devon Walsh and Jacob Berger, my two other band members who areinvaluable members of the creation process.
It's all three of us in all of
the Moon Tower stuff.
Well, playing together 10 years, I mean, I could tell you from experience how hard it isto keep a band together for a bazillion reasons.

(14:06):
um So to be able to do that definitely speaks to the bond.
playing together and we've been living together.
were roommates for about 10 years now.
So we're closer to an old married couple than we are a band.
I guess an old married throuple.
Yeah.
I guess that's nice when it's time to rehearse and practice and work things out.

(14:28):
Like, what are you doing?
You're just watching TV?
All right, come on.
I mean, yeah, we don't have a living room.
have a studio.
yeah, totally.
You use the same term, gardener.
That's how I would think about it.
The way I had my electronic setup going was I'm like playing these ideas and songs andit's not so much like I have to really write them.

(14:54):
I can just play them and nurture them and kind of, you know, trim the little outgrowthshere and there and let things blossom naturally.
And I mean, now with modern DAWs and whatnot, we have such an ability to achieveperfection.
And I do love music.
I mean, I listen to a lot of industrial stuff that's very jagged edges and it can bealmost abrasive in how perfect it is.

(15:20):
And that's great.
But also so much of the music that I return to year after year and I think a lot of peoplereturn to is loved because it was
capturing of a moment and it was kind of garden that wasn't it wasn't perfected to thepoint of inhumanity
Yeah, I agree.

(15:42):
think that's interesting stuff and you can bring you back to listen again.
how'd you hear how that went that way?
that's funny.
certainly.
What's your favorite type of music to listen to,
man, that's tough.
It depends on the mood, I guess.
I know, when someone asks that question you forget every band you've ever listened to.

(16:03):
Yeah.
guess I'm probably most grounded in like the stuff I grew up in, like rock, know,alternative rock and 60s rock and things like that, 90s, 60s.
um, but as I've gotten older, I've gotten a lot more into like technology and

(16:25):
Yeah.
synthesizers, drum machines and stuff.
Stuff that I thought as a teenager was like so uncool.
But I think in the nineties it was kind of uncool in a lot of ways.
Maybe like you like nine inch nails or something, but everything else that used a synthwas kind of corny by then.
I guess the eighties sort of did that to it.

(16:49):
But it wasn't long before I started to realize like a lot of the music I like has thatstuff in it.
Even though I
I I don't like drum machines or I think I don't like synthesizers.
I'm like, that's a synthesizer right there that I thought was like a guitar or something.
You know, that kind of the way you are as a kid, you put these like lines in the sand forno reason other than just to have an identity.

(17:11):
Yeah, of course.
Yeah, you gotta be rock and roll with it.
I think I've the same ilk for a long, long time.
Yeah, that's, that leads me to now where I, I kind of never know where I'm going to go thenext time I make something.
And that's, it's a lot of fun that way, but therein also lies the issue too, because whenI was younger, just playing very specific kind of music, that's so many decisions were

(17:40):
already ruled out.
It was like, I'm going to play my electric guitar.
It's going to be loud and it's going to be quiet and loud and
That was it, but now when it's like, I can make like a spacey ambient thing, uh or I canmake like acoustic singer songwriter, you know, sometimes that's paralyzing.
It is daunting sometimes.

(18:02):
I mean, it's daunting on both sides having two stricks of a walled garden in which tocreate.
it can be, I think I agree with you, even more paralyzing when you have the entirety ofevery sound ever recorded and you've got every mode of synthesis to create anything in

(18:22):
your brain to find out, am I going to do here?
Right.
One of my favorite, probably my favorite band is the Beatles.
And I think about them and how much they experimented and all these things they tried, butthey were sort of exposed to it little by little, I think, you know, looking back, they

(18:45):
even talk about chords, like, somebody knows this chords.
We took the bus over across town and learn it.
but we now we get everything at once.
You know, if you
Download any DAW, you've got everything.
So it's like, where do I start?

(19:06):
with the Beatles, the history of the Beatles is the history of music technology in lot ofways.
They didn't have a lot of the, a lot of the tools that we rely upon.
mean, pre DSP, when we're just talking about signal processing in general, it was inventedfor the Beatles, you know, for a specific use case.
Uh, I think the story on the, on the ADT, the automatic double tracker was

(19:32):
John Lennon didn't want to record a double of his own voice, so they had to invent a styleof tape modulation to be able to emulate that and be it new types of saturation or double
tracking or um ways of recreating sounds.

(19:53):
It's so fun to go through the Beatles discography and I find it so inspiring every timebecause it's the history of the tools.
Yeah, and a lot of those new tools when they came out they were like, let's give them tothe Beatles like Bob Mogue is showing up with synthesizers and uh Fenders got some new

(20:14):
stuff.
They just send it to the Beatles and let's see what they do and Yeah, they've uh, we gotit all at once
We got it all at once.
It's daunting.
yeah, it's a lot trying to deal with of that.
Not complaining though, I love it.

(20:35):
It's such a great time.
I do feel thankful though that I, when I grew up, like I was a teenager in the ninetiesand I had a four track cassette recorder.
That was like a big deal when I got that thing.
And all I had was a mic and a guitar though, you know?
So it was so limiting, but still felt like the whole universe opened up because now I canlayer tracks.

(20:58):
Wow.
Certainly.
mean, and then you advance all the way through to modern technology and we've got the bestrecreation that we can possibly achieve right now um of these digitized sounds.
And then I go back, like on this most recent record, uh all of the individual stems, umkind of bar none, I...

(21:24):
put through what you're saying, like a Tascam 246 6-track recorder from 1984, just so canget like a little bit of that saturation or that sound.
Yeah, degradation, just a little bit of something in that imperfection.
Did you run them onto the tape or just through the electronics?

(21:47):
Yeah, cool.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, onto the tape and played it back and whatnot and got to get a little bit wobbly withthe...
That specific model has a really nice sounding pitch up and down.
Yeah, it's fun.
It's a very uh sound, like, in sound right now.

(22:07):
I feel like that.
Taskam saturation's very in vogue.
So I bought it...
um
off Craig's lists and restored it and what not just to see what all the fuss was about andsure as heck it sounds pretty great.
Those transformers and everything are really awesome.

(22:27):
Yeah, I'm a big fan of that kind of stuff.
I have a Tascam 388, which is an eight track, which I absolutely love, but also istemperamental.
I mean, some days it's just making so much noise and I have no idea why.
And then the next day...

(22:48):
one of the reasons why I had to do individual stems on a lot of the stuff, I mean I wouldsend buses, but two of the six tracks on my 246 pretty much gave out and I got in there
with a multimeter and tried to solder it back to life.
I'm not sure exactly, I will get back, I will get to the bottom of it once I get back fromtour here, but...

(23:13):
Yeah, I'm using like channel 1 as L and channel 4 as R.
And it's just a, it's a six track machine, but it might as well be a stereo warmer.
Yeah.
I hear you.
I've done the same thing with mine.
Like, I don't know what's wrong with track one, but let's just skip it.
Yep.
But yeah, sometimes it is just nice to have the plugins because they don't do that.

(23:36):
eh And if they do, it's a feature, you know?
is.
It is.
mean, lot of my favorite, a lot of my go-to plugins these days are the ones likeSketchCassette, where you've got some of that emulation of those, yeah, dropouts and that,

(23:58):
yeah, algorithmic imperfection.
That's a really cool one also just visually too.
I just love the look, just penciled kind of thing.
Yeah, they've got a bunch of them I like a lot.
One of them makes you sound like an MP3 kind of, which I can't believe I've, it might belossy, something like that.

(24:24):
I'm not sure, it's aberrant though.
It has like,
you can kind of like draw on it.
ah
Okay.
ah
it sound like I can't believe I want this sound ever because when like in the early 2000swhen you were getting these like harsh digital sounds you're like, ugh, like what is this?

(24:46):
But now it's just kind of fun to throw in there once in a while.
certainly.
Yeah, no, we've come all the way, haven't we?
I got an Instagram ad saying, like, recreate that classic sound of, like, bad A to Dconversion from Pro Tools 2.
It's like, all right, we're now, yeah, getting digital recreations of digital.

(25:10):
ah It's funny.
Maybe it's, I Googled it, maybe it's uh Digital-less?
Nonetheless.
Yeah.
I have like two or three of them.
I really like their stuff.
um
a big fan of all the aberrant stuff.
Also, D16 Plugging Group is one of my favorite ones these days.

(25:30):
yeah, they those nice drum machines.
Yeah.
their rate reduction, think it's...
um shoot, what's it called?
The rate reduction from D16, Decimort 2, has some of the best saturation and just reallypleasant aliasing to me.

(25:56):
DigiTales, that's the aberrant one I'm talking about.
DigiTales.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
If you want to sound like garbagey digital from the early 2000s, that's your best bet.
was cracking me up.
Yeah, it's like if you don't, yeah, if you want a bad representation of your dynamic rangeand at the same time, I mean, that was one of the things I came to learn when I was a kid.

(26:25):
As much as I really loved that, you know, the Daft Punk music and the French touch and thestuff that went around with that, you learn those were born out of necessity from the
hardware tools at the time.
You've got the SB 1200 and people would sample the, uh, they would, they would speed upthe record player play, play stuff unnecessarily fast and, uh, slow it back down inside of

(26:49):
the box to expand that 10 second sampling time on floppy disk.
And then you'd have aliasing built into the sound.
that like both the, the sound of the aliasing and the 12 bit dynamic range of the SB 1200is kind of the sound of French house.
And then.
You just put the kick too loud, you get an Alesis 3630, which probably costs, you know, 42bucks.

(27:13):
I've got a few.
since I bought it off eBay in like 2000.
It was like already getting thrown out.
it's no longer called the same website, is it called Gearheads now?
Yeah, Gearheads is calling it the, one of the more affordable door stops you can get isthe 3688.

(27:34):
It's not great.
But it's got something.
It definitely does.
When you want to do that pumped out, you listen to mixes sometimes on...
I'm just harking on French house for some reason today.
But you listen to some of those mixes and they aren't great mixes in the technical sense.

(27:55):
They don't have great frequency range.
They don't have a great representation.
They're pretty thin.
um But they have that thing.
Those guys found the thing and I think a lot of the time what I think my fellow musicmakers and myself are looking for is that thing of the moment.

(28:19):
And it takes so much discovering and digging to find that thing.
um A slam 3630 with a kick drum going too loud so it pumps can be a thing.
Or like the strokes thing where you do the is this it?
Let me put up two microphones and get the sound of the room and...
have it sound terrible but it sounds like the time that can be the thing um or you can gothe Quincy Jones route and you get the most beautiful recording, the best, most perfect

(28:48):
mix and that could be the thing but yeah finding an identity inside of the mix inside yourmusic production style is something I'm always looking for and I'm looking for uh tools
that can help me do that
Yeah, having a vibe, a feel, uh atmosphere is I think more important than anything.

(29:11):
um Because you can clean something up that doesn't have it and it just sounds distant orsterile or something.
I think sometimes I think a lot of times when you just throw ideas at the wall and goingwith it, maybe it's because you're not thinking too hard.

(29:33):
You're not trying to get everything perfect.
You're just reacting to the last thing you did.
It sometimes comes together almost easier where if you try to purposely do this stuff, itcan be, it can be too calculated.
And then it doesn't have the energy or the.
Whatever that magic touch is

(29:55):
the gardening thing where you see what grows and then you find the beauty inside of it.
you are trying to, think um Eno has one of his cards for Oblique Strategies is um shootthe arrow, the target around it.

(30:15):
And I love that when it comes to kind of music production in general.
Yeah.
Well, I think a big thing we spend too much time doing is aiming the arrow and then nevershooting it.
getting frustrated when you shoot the arrow at a target and it hits somewhere else and notappreciating it.
At least the problem I run into, not painting with a broad brush here, is not appreciatingit for what it is.

(30:40):
If I heard that thing in my head trying to separate that thing that I was hearing fromwhat's actually there.
Yeah.
Yeah, I read a really great book on this called, um, why greatness cannot be planned.
The myth of the objective.
And it comes from like an AI background.

(31:01):
So they're talking about their AI programmers.
And I think it's even already like a bit old, like 2016 or something like that.
But they talk about how when you are purposely trying to get someplace that's.
often prevents you from getting someplace new and interesting.
So when you're just shooting the arrow and painting the target around it, you've reached aspot you wouldn't have come to before.

(31:28):
And now you will see new steps after that, that you wouldn't have seen if you were justtrying to get to, you know, whatever point B was.
Where there's a place you've already been and you already know what's going to happen.
But when you get to that novel place.
Now you're able to see it the next novel place a step away from that.

(31:49):
And you kind of keep following these little stepping stones.
Yeah, totally.
I love that.
I think I've heard it said, I mean, we're both just repeating ways we've heard it said.
Someone, I forget where, it was on a podcast, it might have been the Lex Threadman,talking, someone was speaking to chasing excitement without expectation.

(32:13):
And at any given moment, choosing the route whenever you're given a choice in life or increation.
choose whatever option offers even marginally more excitement to you.
And if you are to do that without expectation and do that nobly, I think he was saying,then you can experience becoming, as Vonnegut says, experience becoming.

(32:43):
Yeah.
it's a very similar concept to that book, actually.
And it's helped me a lot with making music because now it's just like, let's and I don'tmean like, let's see what happens.
Like I don't have any direction.
It's more like let's work with what happened.
Maybe is a better way to put it like, we're here now.

(33:03):
OK, now what can we do with that instead of, oh, man, I don't want to be here.
I wanted to be there.
And then it's frustrating.
It certainly can be.
But there's so much beauty in it when you allow there to be.
Yup, yeah, and between that and just trying to see what I'm doing is more like a body ofwork or like breadcrumbs I'm leaving along the way instead of like, this must be my

(33:32):
masterpiece now.
don't think I've ever made anything good with that mindset.
Now I will make a masterpiece.
Yeah, it's really difficult.
When you decide before it's your masterpiece that it will be your masterpiece, it almostbecomes a self-fulfilling, what do you say, opposite of prophecy.
Yeah.

(33:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I'm curious now, if you choose, you know, this is we're talking like music creating,producing, but you're also in the DSP world of programming and creating tools now.

(34:13):
I guess I'm wondering if there's, are there parallels?
Are they different things?
Because maybe this is a little more, I guess when I think of programming, think very.
logic based and numbers and
It is.
um
I came to the want to get down to the bottom of DSP and learn programming from a love ofmusic creation.

(34:44):
I was always fascinated.
I think it goes back to my dad took me to my first concert.
It was Rush.
And Geddy Lee had all of those, you know, he's got the moogs on stage and whatnot.
And he's turning knobs and you watch the studio footage of them and whatnot.
And I was always fascinated by what the knob does.

(35:07):
Why, when you turn that knob, it, if you turn that, it now sounds darker or it sounds thisand that and the other.
And now at this point...
I know that's the cutoff on a low pass filter and that's the resonance underneath it andwe use those to be able to shape with subtractive synthesis what's going on on the Moog.

(35:30):
But I really probably about six years ago started asking the question of well why doesthat do that when it comes to audio plugins and come to DAW digital audio
workstation uh work when we've when we've digitized what is a signal.

(35:52):
uh What is that?
What is that?
That was that was a real thing that was uh pressure coming out of the air and frequencyand amplitude.
And uh what what happens then?
Why why does that knob inside of the computer make it come back out of my speakersdifferent?

(36:15):
when it's translated back into something that my ears are hearing.
uh So it came from, I think, an innate curiosity.
And that led me down the uh path of trying to figure out, well, the best way to learn isprobably to do, in my opinion.
So I started getting into really elementary uh juice development.

(36:39):
And juice is a framework.
that is amazing and they've got a uh really amazing set of tutorials online and there's alot of great classes and people and I started checking out textbooks from our local
library on what is kind of digital signal processing for audio applications.

(37:03):
And the more I got into it, the more I found this is, is, I'm.
deriving as much joy from creating the knob that is to be turned as I am from turning theknob.
ah So it came from a very similar place of creation and it still offers me the same joy ofcreation.

(37:25):
It is more binary in that uh I would say if I have a piece of modular gear and I am
plugging in wires in different places, I might end up with a beautiful mess.
when you're writing inside of a programming language like C++ or Python, you're less, Iguess, you can't really go down the messy route.

(37:54):
It needs to be quite organized for you to be able to achieve anything.
But the joy that I felt when I was able to use a plug-in that I wrote inside of my DAW,
was very similar to when I had spent four hours patching cables to get that particularkick drum out of my Pulsar 23.

(38:18):
I love that kick drum to death, now I have a...
That kick drum is mine, no one else has that.
That exists in the moment.
In same way, I know exactly why the numbers that were translated from the Fouriertransform, Fourier transform...
then manipulated by me in the digital signal processing domain, and then were put back outto be waveforms again that are audible.

(38:44):
That's mine, there's an accomplishment there.
So that was kind of, hopefully that makes sense, that's a little bit of my villain originstory, that's how I got into plugin development.
Yeah, I can relate to that.
Not so much in that actual programming in that way, but um I've been creating like AbletonLive packs using instrument racks and drum racks, audio effect racks and the thought of

(39:15):
like, how am going to make these macro knobs interact?
What do I want to have control over?
How much control over each one of those parameters do I want?
Yeah.
how does that influence how I play the instrument?
I find that really exciting and it's especially fun.
very similar.
It's just in a different medium.

(39:36):
um I think that coding can be thought of as inherently prohibitively difficult to wrapyour head around.
um With modern tools and with the amount of information there is out there and thewherewithal to kind of want to get into it, I think even if you want to start

(39:59):
at Ableton macros and go down to Max for live and then go into the Maybe I'm gonna write alow-pass filter or something like that.
Try to get my wrap my head around What's going on there?
I think it's just a little bit deeper down that rabbit hole and I think it's it's all inthe act of Creating It's fun, it's very rewarding I encourage I encourage anyone to that

(40:27):
would be curious
to give it a go.
Yeah, I could see that.
And especially when you're going to apply it to your own music, too.
That's got to be a lot of fun.
So, I mean, I have tools that are, and this was how I started, I have plugins that areinternal use only.

(40:49):
They aren't out there.
And I don't say that as being like, I have something that you can't have.
I say that moreover as saying, it's very rewarding to me to say, I need to get this out ofthe sound.
I need to juice the sound.
Well, I dialed in my own plugin that I use inside of Ableton that does what I need.

(41:15):
And if it doesn't work exactly like I need, maybe I'll go down to the code and change thata little bit and re-export the plugin for my use.
um It's similar to patch cables or anything like that in my head.
Hmm, almost like I could get a different EQ, a different console emulation, or I can go inthere and I know I want this kind of character to the sound.

(41:46):
Computer music, although we do have so many tools inside of the DAWs, um all of them shipwith this massive suite of what seems like everything, in my head, computer music is very
nascent genre.

(42:08):
There's a lot of room in there for exploring and creating new things and being messy inthe same way that
Like I was saying just uh to bring it back if they created an ADT so that John Lennoncould have a new sound on his vocal well someone had to think of an ADT and then get out
some some tape machine and make it wobble and this and that and then they put it inside ofAbbey Rhodes and they used it to create some hit records, so I think there are a lot of

(42:37):
tools that are yet to be made and um
There are developers that are doing really amazing things all the time.
um But I am inspired every time I go in there and I try and think of kind of like thegardening.
What are we going to do today?
What's this tool that I'm going to try and create today?

(43:01):
Do a lot of those designs come from just a need while you're working on music or is itmore, let me just make this and then see what I can make with it.
We have a plug-in that the Soap Audio guys and I made.
We were uh trying to get down to the bottom of Michael Coleman, who is one third of SoapAudio, and he is an amazing mixer, producer, just audio engineer, musician all around.

(43:31):
um He was working with a lot of artists and he realized that when he recorded, when theyrecorded demo drums on their
voice memo on their iPhone.
They would retract the drums and the artist would still prefer the voice memo drums.
So we got down to what exactly is voice memos doing to the sounds and why is thatpleasing?

(44:00):
um And we built a tool that is not...
um
It could be done if you route up a bunch of different...
It's kind of expanding the quiet frequencies, or the quiet dynamics, and compressing thehigh ones, and changing the ratio dynamics, or changing, yeah, the ratio of the uh

(44:24):
dynamics computer in real time based on the input of the sound.
um That tool wasn't out there, so we built it and...
uh We love it.
it was for that one in particular, it was based off of just this everyday, why do I keepon dealing with people that prefer voice memos?

(44:46):
What are voice memos doing?
Can we do what voice memos is doing with a more musical intent?
So you're kind of referring to how I don't have to set the volume on my mic in my phonewhen I do a voice memo.
It just sort of, it knows that because it's hearing what's coming in.
And if I'm whispering in it, it knows it needs to bring it up.

(45:08):
And if I'm recording the band, it knows.
memos, at least what we found, are doing some strange processing that's unusual when you,yeah, when you A-B it against the same source that was mic'd a different way.
The playback of a voice memo has kind of an interesting dynamics thing going on.

(45:33):
Yeah.
I've used them um sometimes.
The last thing I did with my band, I used it almost like a room mic.
So the drums were already tracked.
I just ran them through, played them out of the monitors and just held my phone mic righthere where I'm sitting and just let it record it.
And then just kind of mix that in a little bit.

(45:54):
And it definitely gave it a little bit of energy and a little more space.
You know, the room, the song kind of changed a little bit.
Yeah.
And uh it's a lot of fun.
It's great.
Yeah, this particular tool that we will release eventually.

(46:15):
Yeah, and we've also built in parameters inside of the GUI to be able to kind of push whatit's doing or what we assume that it's doing or what we found via our analysis to the
extreme.
So you can do these really crazy um things to the sound.

(46:36):
It's great.
It's a lot of fun.
Hmm, that is cool.
that, but that came from a problem to solve because why does everyone like this voicememo?
It should not work.
Everything says no, let's do it the right way.
But there's something more right about this way.

(46:56):
Yeah.
And the product that we're currently selling on uh Musub came also from trying to solve aproblem, which was...
This is the voice cleaner.
Yes.
From Soap Audio.
has a super cool interface, the way.
The red and yellow and real simple, but interesting to interact with.

(47:21):
from Michael Coleman again.
So I do as far as the company, it's Michael Coleman, Kevin Fielding and me.
Kevin, or Michael is a really great audio engineer, Grammy nominated, all that stuff.
And Kevin is a very high level programmer.

(47:42):
He worked on some of the rabbit AI stuff and um
currently is programming in the mobile space for skims.
And I do more of the plug-in DSP backend stuff.
So the voice cleaner came when Michael was complaining about basketball podcasts.

(48:07):
He said all of them have the same issue.
They have the same frequency buildup.
They have the same, I think,
Rostam from vampire weekends had a great tweet that I think about all the time.
It said just like remove the low-mids out of your life um They all had this this terriblelow-mid problem this terrible siblings problem this unevenness and it's in their dynamics

(48:34):
and It was consistent we could tell across different Podcasts that were recorded indifferent rooms in different ways and then we tried to
kind of explain that we got in contact and we try to explain this to some of the podcastproducers and um terms like equalization, compression, dynamic range, multi-bands, uh

(49:01):
sibilants, all these issues were uh daunting and scary words for them.
So we set out to make a plugin.
um
that is a little bit of a non-musical application, well, a lot of bit of a non-musicalapplication for anyone recording the human speaking voice to get a uh pleasant speaking

(49:24):
voice that is non-taxing on the ear and to fix the problems if you only have maybe thebudget USB mic from Best Buy or the recording into your iPhone without trying to get that
crazy dynamics thing that I was talking about.
And it has been really well received by the people that use Audacity and getting theplugin via the MuseHub platform.

(49:56):
And it's been a lot of fun getting to work with people and see the plugin have a bit of anadoption on a wide scale by podcasters and audiobook recorders.
narrators, content creators in general.
um People that may have never used a plugin before or never thought about digital signalprocessing or building a vocal chain or something like that.

(50:26):
And this works by they can choose like a profile or a preset for like their specificmicrophone.
That's cool.
Makes it easier than like some of the other like in terminology.
that, yeah, you could possibly really want or use, uh, inside of that environment.

(50:47):
And I've done a lot of, a lot of just mixing work for friends working in film and TV andon podcasts and that type of stuff.
I find myself reaching for it more often than not.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, you've solved some of the issues you've encountered, right?

(51:07):
So it's almost like your own preset in any plugin, basically, right?
Or uh chain.
um
When you're making one like this, have to imagine, because it sounds like it's, you'resaying people are doing basketball podcasts, for instance, they're not audio engineers,

(51:29):
music producers, which is probably why they're in the situation they are now, where youguys are saying, hey, something wrong with this.
How do you decide how much control to give with it?
Because you must have to...
decide some limitations, right?
Because if they turn the knob too far, they're going to kill it.

(51:52):
the, the plugin took about two years to develop and we, uh, worked with a lot of people,mainly, uh, parents of ours and stuff like that, where we really wanted to see, okay, push
this to the limit.
Can you make it sound bad?
And, um, I know Brian, you have the plugin in front of you, but for anyone listening, it'sgot three knobs on it.

(52:16):
One says Squish, one says Suds, and one says DMUD.
It's got a help mode where it will explain what all of those do.
they, yeah, they're made very specifically to, they're linked very similarly in macroswhen you might build an Ableton Effect Rack where you can have one knob controlling nine

(52:39):
different things.
And whereas maybe on a FabFilter plugin, you might
have every single one of those program changes available to you, the end user, in the GUI.
We wanted to go the exact opposite direction, where we said, best case scenario, youchoose a preset, the knobs are going to be set where they are, where we've decided they

(53:03):
should be set, and across a very broad range of human speaking voices that we demoed whencreating the DSP for this plugin, um we hope that you don't have to touch another knob.
And if you do, with the knobs skewed and everything, we are decently confident that yourvoice is not going to sound, uh it's not going to take much to make it sound quite great.

(53:30):
You want to take some of that control away because that's, mean, if you're an audioengineer, yes, I want to have all these.
want to be able to do a bell curve and a, you know, low pass and whatever raise theresonance.
But if I'm trying to make my podcast and I don't really know much more than how to cut outpauses or something like that, this is what I can go to.

(53:56):
It's a lot like, I think in in for a visual analogy, like an Instagram filter where Idon't have access to the shutter and all that.
And I don't necessarily want to.
I'm personally colorblind.
I would rather not have access to all that stuff.
um But if I click the filter, I might be able to have something sound more professionaland then I can get

(54:23):
You know, that side of the work, the decent sounds, if that's taken care of, then I canfocus on what I really want to focus on.
the basketball podcast, it's talking about the subject matter of the podcast.
Let's focus on making the podcast as enjoyable as possible and get to doing what you love.

(54:44):
Have you found anybody using this in more creative ways, like misusing it from theoriginal intention?
is an interesting question and I have yet to see someone really try and break the pluginum or like circuit bend it or something like that to be able to get an unusual results
out.

(55:04):
even people just running their drums through it or anything along those lines.
No, if they are using the voice cleaner to do that, would very much appreciate it if theywould let me know because I'd love to see that.
Yeah.
Because in thinking back, we were talking about some of the old gear and the limitationsthat are built in with it.

(55:24):
Yeah, now we have all these devices where we have every parameter we can control, whichis, again, I'm not complaining.
Don't take them away.
But sometimes it's nice to have something that's going to sort of do its thing.
You know what I'm saying?
It's going to color it in its own way because it's
It's been built so that, yeah, this knob, it's doing like three things at once.

(55:48):
So things are going to react.
It's a Pultec versus like a Pro-Q4.
I love the Pro-Q4, but I instantiate the Pultec emulations.
I would love to have a Pultec, but I instantiate the Pultec emulations, specifically theUAD one, way more often.

(56:09):
It isn't doing exactly what is written on the GUI.
And I'm a pretty firm believer in...
when creating a tool that's supposed to be a efficiency hack and to be able to get out ofyour own way in the creation sphere that uh it's more important to have an enjoyable piece

(56:30):
of gear than a technical piece of gear.
But there's different applications where I certainly need that Pro-Q4 and I need to set,you know, a 20 band or like a crazy dynamic EQ that's doing all sorts of this, that and
the other and stereo width and
Yeah, there's use cases for both.

(56:53):
That's a great point because when I'm first creating a song and I'm getting in the vibe ofit and the feel, I don't need to be pulling out some EQ where I'm looking at the frequency
spectrum and boosting and cutting so that I get a little extra rumble.
I want something where I can just turn the low end up and, all right, now it's rumblinglike I need it.

(57:14):
Now I can move forward.
Later on, I'm mixing.
I'm trying to fine tune things.
Then, OK, now we'll get in there, but.
There are different sides of your brain, at least to me.
And there are people that create as they mix, or mix as they create.
yeah, as far as keeping your tool creator-centric, I prefer those that...

(57:37):
I think I mentioned the Pulsar.
I love Soma Labs.
Their instruments are so cool.
I adore their...
The Pulsar 23 has a connection that just says WTF and wow and stuff like that where itisn't made to be understood.

(57:59):
It's made to be entropic and whether or not it's like a sample and hold algorithm that'spinging off of an LFO, it is something.
It is algorithmically random or I guess it's analog so it's not algorithmically but youget what I'm saying.
um
The entropy in it is great and I love having that simplicity of this one thing I don'tneed to understand, I can just appreciate for what it's doing.

(58:28):
Yeah.
sometimes for myself with my own Ableton Live Racks.
Rather than call something like low pass filter with reverb plus whatever, I might justcall it like distance or melt.
This is the melt knob.
It has a few things going on and it gets me out of the...

(58:53):
That technical mindset, like you kind of mentioned earlier, like when you're watchingGeddy Lee and you hear the sound gets muffled.
But now you know it's a low pass filter at like 1k and you got the numbers in it.
You almost like science yourself out of the fantasy world that the music is creating.

(59:14):
Sure, yeah, certainly.
There's a...
And I have gone down, I have only found that my appreciation for music has grown deeperthe more that I learn about the really technical stuff, like the transforms at the...
bass level of digital music, but being as umbrella and being as beginner minded aspossible is also probably the most fun place to be creating music.

(59:46):
Yeah.
Yeah, I know a lot of people fear learning stuff for that reason.
Like, no, I'm going to...
And I guess that can happen sometimes where sometimes I hear a song like that's one, six,four, five progression and get like snooty about it.
But as soon as I forget that it's one, six, four, five, I'm like, what a cool chordprogression.

(01:00:08):
You know?
Well, I mean, it brings me back to like, was a bachelor of music and the part writing wasmuch more like completing a Sudoku puzzle.
There's objective correctness inside of this.
You don't do the parallel fifths if you want to, you know, resolve a plagal cadence, it'sgoing to be this to that.
And there are rules to it.

(01:00:31):
And with programming and with doing
DSP engineering, it is kind of, you've got rules to it, but the end product can still bebeautiful.
If the composer followed all of the rules, the end user experience, the end listenerthat's consuming the symphony still kind of derives emotion from it.

(01:00:56):
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, sometimes that stuff can bog you down and pull you out of that.
I mean, loved...
Yeah, I've always loved...
the way I would talk about music before I knew what I was saying.
I'd like, that sounds like a star behind some clouds.

(01:01:20):
And you got all these weird ways of describing things because you don't have the actualvocabulary.
But in those descriptions, a lot of times, it pulls you into this world of what you'remaking.
I had a mistake, I think, on that front with accidentally pulling my dad out of it for alittle bit.

(01:01:40):
So my dad is a big music consumer and music fan.
turned me on to a lot of the stuff that I love.
And he was explaining to me that a mix from I Don't Remember Who didn't sound great tohim.
And
I was explaining to him, the system on which you're listening to the mix doesn't soundvery good.

(01:02:03):
And then we got out uh my Slate VSX headphones and we were like...
They've got the different room emulations.
You can listen to it in like a digital version of a Tesla or like NRG studios or anythinglike that and switch around.
And my dad had this in real time.

(01:02:23):
He was, he was kind of realizing that, um, is it, is it the fault of the speakermanufacturer or the person that placed the speakers in a different room or the mix
engineer and all of these different things?
Um,
And not that I regret it, because it's not like he doesn't enjoy music anymore, but I didrealize in real time, was like, okay, we're taking too much of the magic out of this.

(01:02:49):
We just, you know, the bass can just be too loud.
Let's let it be, let's let that be what it is.
Yeah, yeah, sometimes, yeah, you could be like at a show and really focused on, I don'tlike the way that particular drum sounds or something.
And then that's all you hear.
And now you're not having fun at the show or you just whatever this is what it is and.

(01:03:14):
I had that issue at a music festival where I think I walked away from my friend so I couldget a better stereo image.
Like, what am I doing here?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, totally.
It's a...
performing where I've been playing before and like something about the sound just eats atme and then I'll finish and be like, that was terrible.

(01:03:44):
And maybe even listen back to it or other people, oh, so good.
sounded great.
you're like, well, I guess.
was one of the things with the sub vocal cleaner, more than anything, the issues with thebasketball podcasts that Michael was listening to.
then we found the same issue across a lot of different podcasts.
These kind of like, em amateur is the wrong word, but these kind of smaller podcasts thatwere very DIY.

(01:04:09):
they were taxing to listen to.
There was a reason why you as a consumer, even if you couldn't vocalize it, even if youdidn't have like the, you know, the specific words to be able to say that, you know.
this is why it's taxing, you would turn them off because they had these issues.

(01:04:32):
So we kind of wanted to fix that because at the end of the day, we wanted that, you know,we the information that was behind all of that, those frequency problems.
Yeah.
Yeah, that was a similar effect to like some of the music mastering that was happening.
The loudness wars were like, oh wow, it's so intense.

(01:04:54):
It's great.
But like after a few minutes, you're like, oh my God, it's this, I'm never getting abreak.
need, like I'm getting a headache and I'm getting tired.
Just listening to this because there's no push and pull, no breathing room.
new remasters and whatnot where they've gone back and tried to really, you know, get theoriginal intended dynamic range.

(01:05:21):
Suddenly that snare is not being buried, something like that.
It's a little funny when you go on the streaming services now and you've got some choicesof like what year version of the album, like am going to listen to Nirvana Nevermind from
2013 or the new 2021, 30 year or am going to, where's the original?

(01:05:45):
Can I just have that?
I have friends that have been
going back to their CDs for that reason, because they're like, I just want it to sound theway it sounded, not this new edition that are...
speaking about the Beatles mixes.
Some of those are funny.
I don't know which years they were, but there are some mixes I think I had on CD whereit's like Ringo and George in the right ear and John and Paul in the left ear, where I'm

(01:06:15):
not sure what the how that one crossed the finish line.
Right.
a lot of weird stuff like that.
Yeah, I'm really big fan and huge...
I'm very interested in spatialization and what's going to happen with uh head tracking andwhat they're currently doing with uh Atmos, where music can be panned more in a 3D

(01:06:44):
environment and...
Stereo, like I was saying, digital music is decently nascent.
Stereo, as a means by which we listen to music, is also, I mean, very much nascentcompared to how long we as a people have been listening to music.
The vast majority of that time, if you wanted to hear more of the bassist, there was norecording.

(01:07:07):
You had to turn your head.
You could hear more of where the bass was coming from.
And I'm curious whether or not when you mix...
what's currently implemented with gyroscopes and head tracking and all this, whether ornot we'll move back to a place of being able to define your own listening experience via
head tracking, or whether or not that will be an option, like you were saying, inside ofthe streaming services.

(01:07:31):
um I want to put on dark side, and I want to put on the Atmos version, but I want it tobe.
in a room where I can move um even if I do have on my AirPod Max or whatever they are.
m
Yeah, these AirPods I have now, they're, guess, like, maybe they're the pro or something.

(01:07:54):
They're maybe a generation behind or so.
But they have that where, um, if I put my phone in like my left pocket, at first, itsounds like the music is on my side.
And then it's sort of like understands after a couple of seconds that, that's just whereyou're keeping your phone now.
Okay.
And then it centers again.

(01:08:14):
Um, and that can be a little weird.
don't like it in that case.
And it can be funny also if I have the computer connected to the AirPods and I turn away,you know, I'm watching YouTube or whatever.
YouTube is still over there.
Like speakers are.

(01:08:35):
It's got this, it's a weird feeling.
But it does allow some of the Atmos stuff to come, which I don't even really understandhow they're able to do that with only two speakers in your head.
But some of the mixes I've heard are great, really cool.
One I really enjoyed was the B-52's Love Shack.

(01:08:57):
had the guys that mixed that on the podcast and that was really cool because something Inever noticed about that song, the entire way through, there's just people like partying.
It's like, hey, all right, like people just, it's crowd noise kind of, and you really feellike you're in it.
But there've been other mixes where it's like, oh, where's that guitar?

(01:09:19):
Like the lead guitar is buried now and.
Yeah.
something weird going on here with this mix that I'm having a hard time.
What I'd be curious about, and I'm really asking for the world here, is whether or not, ina hypothetical future, you could have, you could give the end listener volition in

(01:09:41):
choosing how they would like...
You know, if you want the...
Well, if you want the crowd sound in the B-52 to be louder, maybe it wouldn't look like amixing console, like an audio guy might understand it, but is there a world in which you
could...
do something on your listening experience to be able to choose to have more John, lessRingo, more Paul, you know?

(01:10:10):
Is there something that you could do spatially?
I've seen, I know that they've done that kind of as experiments inside of physical spacesthat have physical at most rigs.
But as far as delivering music em in that format, whether or not there's anything there.

(01:10:30):
Yeah, kind like what you're saying about getting the better stereo image at the showmoving over.
Or can I stand closer to Paul so I can hear his bass better?
How much choice do we want to the listener?
Yeah.
Yeah.
so much of the actual piece of music is in the mix, those artistic decisions you're makingwith the mix.

(01:10:55):
So if you're turning that over, you're changing a lot.
yeah, there's a, yeah, I feel like I'm, and I mix our music.
So I'd also probably be, you know, not offended, I'd be cautious to hand that amount ofchoice over.
Maybe it would be something like what we were doing with the voice cleaner where you canchange it enough, but not try and break it.

(01:11:25):
Yeah.
especially if you have a song that has 72 tracks in it, you know, but
of standardization and how that's delivered.
It's a whole range of issues in what I'm proposing, but I think the type of problem isthere.
isotope as a visual mixer?
um Yeah, I think it's through their Neutron app plugin where it's kind of a...

(01:11:52):
they all communicate with each other.
But it's, it's, there's a vertical line that goes up and down and the, that would be yourvolume.
And then it's, it's like a graph, I guess, where you got up and down, left and right.
Yeah.
And you can just move those things around.

(01:12:12):
And if you place it higher, it's louder.
And if you place it more to the right, it's more to the right, more to the left.
Cool, yeah.
I am.
I've played with it a little bit.
was interesting.
It was a neat way to mix that, you know...
each of those on your individual stems at the end of the chain?

(01:12:34):
And then that would be gain and panning type?
correctly, if you have a bunch of these neutrons on the tracks, then they all feed to somecentral location, and then you have the visual mixer where you can push things around a
bit.
The only iZotope I really want to use all that often, I know they've got amazing tools,but the RX suite is really, great.

(01:13:04):
For either the D-HUM or they've got specialized guitar denoise, ah the spectral denoise,ah they're intensive, but they're great.
Yeah, yeah, they make really interesting stuff and I've used plenty of it.
I'm always using Ozone and stuff like that.

(01:13:29):
But that kind of visual interface I could see maybe for a consumer, like you can have likeyour phone, right?
And you can just like kind of move things.
Or like when we've all entered the Matrix in 12 years, when we're wearing our Apple VisionPro headsets, being able to...

(01:13:49):
Something like that.
Yeah.
It's a thought.
It's a thought.
And then would you be able to turn your head 360?
But like you were saying with the YouTube coming out of your right ear when you turn yourhead.
ah
It definitely needs to be a choice and we need to have the ability to choose to listen tostereo.

(01:14:14):
Yeah, I don't know how I feel.
think it's like, part of me thinks it's cool.
It's like, wow, it's cool.
can do that.
But when I'm like, this happens to me, like every time I, if I'm going out to do like alittle yard work or something or go for a run, I put my phone in my pocket and then
everything goes in my pocket, you know?

(01:14:35):
And then it comes back.
Cause I think it understands that.
They must just know like, that's probably a case where you don't want that.
But it is a funny feeling, which is weird because it's more natural, but.
It is.
It is.
But I guess we've naturalized here by...

(01:14:56):
trained to have headphones on and just hear it out of the headphones.
I had a friend have me come over and look at their they'd recently gotten a um like ahi-fi setup and they were not an audio person in the slightest and they got a decent
system and they placed it so that the two speakers were back to back one was facing thisway and one was facing exactly the other way there was no stereo image it was just exact

(01:15:25):
opposites and I realized that that phantom middle channel and
know, spatialization is just something that most people, even even audiophiles, I meanmaybe not so much audiophiles, but a lot of people just don't think about it, like at all.
They really think about the left and the right in the middle of it all.
No, no, I've found myself explaining what listening in mono is to people versus stereo.

(01:15:52):
And you just don't think about that, I guess, until you get into this world.
Yeah, and I know it's the same way with all the mediums that I'm not, you know, aprofessional in.
I know there things happening, be it novels or TV shows or movies or anything at all,where there's so much nuance inside of it that I just get the joy of being a consumer and

(01:16:20):
just get the awesome emotional feeling of consuming that without heavy knowledge of what'sgoing on here.
Well, I think that's kind of...
the goal of a lot of it too.
I don't think you want someone listening to the song and then be like, what a cool mixingmove that was, you know, the job of that, the mixer is almost to get out of the way that

(01:16:46):
you're not thinking about it.
And, or like the camera in a movie, if you're constantly like, whoa, cool camera angle.
I love how they're spinning the camera now.
You're, you're not thinking about the story and you're caught up in the,
In the technical...
Right, right.

(01:17:06):
Well, that's great analogy.
That's funny.
Yeah.
It is.
I think that's a little bit like what I was saying before with being at a show and I don'tlike the way that sounds or the new master is kind of annoying.
The 2014 edition.

(01:17:27):
uh
yourself of the joy of consumption.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So much of the job is to get out of the way.
your friend, you know, with, with soap is probably like, I was enjoying the show, but I'mtoo distracted by the sound.
Like I, want to listen to it more, but it's annoying.

(01:17:48):
It hurts or it.
Yeah.
It was, and it was, was made out of a labor of love.
And I'm glad that the tool is being used by people and I'm glad that it's finding its homebecause we really are very proud of it.
And we stand behind it a hundred percent.
ah Yeah, it was made to fix, fix a problem so that it could, it could be it being the endproduct could be more enjoyable.

(01:18:12):
It's great people are taking to it and it kind of brings me to ask you a little bit aboutMuseHub because it's one thing to make something but it has to also reach people and you
guys are using MuseHub to reach an audience and I'm not all that familiar with it but asI've been looking through it, it seems like a pretty cool way to find some new tools for

(01:18:36):
whether you're making music or even more than that I think.
Audacity, think all, a lot of music creators are very familiar with Audacity.
Audacity has been around for a very long time.
And at present Audacity has been freeware and crowd maintained for as long as I know.

(01:18:56):
It was Sony originally, if I'm not mistaken.
Am I wrong about that?
I could be wrong.
I never really used it, too much, but it was always um the software at the school I workwith.
Audacity is what everybody used.

(01:19:18):
It doesn't matter.
It's not anymore, at least.
was developed by...
Shoot.
Now you got me looking at the Wikipedia page.
This is not important.
Yeah.
It started in 99 at Carnegie Mellon.

(01:19:38):
Yeah, I believe it was freeware the whole time.
Doesn't really matter.
It's been a part of Muse Group for about three years now.
And Muse Group launched uh Muse Hub, where there's also MuseScore and some pretty popularum creation tools.

(01:20:00):
um Specifically, Audacity is the most popular or the most used DAW in the world.
um And it's far and away the most popular amongst non-musicians using DAWs to record
non-musical ideas.

(01:20:21):
So a lot of what the MuseHub software is doing is getting the tools to these people thatum you and I and a lot of the listeners of the podcast are probably aware of everything,
you know, between the multi-track recorder and the newest release of Serum 2.
But like these people may have never owned a plugin before and

(01:20:46):
may not be familiar with anything inside of the world of DSP.
So I think Muse Hub is making uh audio production and DSP tools accessible to an audiencethat don't necessarily find themselves looking for those otherwise.
And I am not affiliated with Muse Hub, so I could be getting that story entirely wrong,but that's what I understand it to be and...

(01:21:16):
I really have only the best things to say about that team.
And it's had a lot of users um since it launched MuseHub as a platform a bit ago.
I mean, it's great you're able to put your work up there and it reaches people.
And I say it's like right on the front page.
It's uh for podcasting essentials.

(01:21:38):
It's after audacity.
It's no voice cleaner.
And I know that uh MUSE Hub is encouraging other aspiring developers to get onto theplatform and try their shot at kind of creating tools, um be it for musical uses or

(01:21:59):
non-musical uses.
yeah, there's a lot of joy to be found in DSP if you find your name being called that wayand a lot of great resources for education.
inside of that sphere.
I think it's really cool how you've taken a lot of these interests of yours from playingmusic with other people, performing, touring, and also just programming and creating your

(01:22:28):
own tools.
It's, I think, the kind of modern direction a lot of people that are interested in musicmaking and being involved with music as a career kind of need to think about because
Everything changes so fast.
It's hard to put any of your eggs in just one basket.

(01:22:48):
So to have some maneuverability and you know, all of that is, is smart.
And it's probably fun for you too, cause you get to scratch a lot of itches.
yeah, I wouldn't say that like pursuing a career in music is like always, you know.

(01:23:09):
going to be the most financially stable thing that you can do in life.
And I wouldn't say that like going deeper into DSP was something that I did to kind ofachieve, you know, whatever, a more diverse, either financial or whatever, trying to
stabilize myself.
But it has given me an appreciation for all sides of music, be it the knob turning, thevery granular, you know.

(01:23:35):
This was recorded by a mic and then went through an A to D conversion.
Okay, what is A to D?
Now that I appreciate that, I appreciate everything that's happening on my screen more andI appreciate the music more.
And it's also allowed me to like really appreciate the creators that have come before methat have like paved the way and made amazing music and amazing music creation tools.

(01:24:04):
Yeah, that's cool.
That tends to happen when you start exploring something, start making it yourself andstart seeing what really goes into it and all of the little things that came before that
allow you to get to where you're going.
Yeah, certainly.
It's a joy.

(01:24:25):
And there's a lot of innovation left.
Yeah, I think so.
It's always, I mean, we're getting spoiled, I think, really.
mean, it seems like every week, there's a new this, there's a new that, this new thingcame out and everything's like, my God, that's so cool.
It used to be so much more spread out.

(01:24:47):
Yeah, there's a bedroom developers and there's, yeah, I would say is a, you know, maybeI'm biased on this, but I learned to code before chat GPT and the, the LLMs could really
just spit out code.
And I would caution anyone if they want to get into plugin developments to uh learn it thehard way, because even as I've tried to get more into and try and learn higher level and

(01:25:15):
lower level stuff.
uh
It's funny how there's nothing that can replace doing it the right way.
The GPTs and LLMs and all that stuff have led me more astray than in the right direction.
Yeah.
they're certainly interesting tools.

(01:25:35):
um I've found them maybe like in creating like visuals even sometimes I find it very hardto get what I want but sometimes it gives me the idea to make what I want and that's kind
of cool but yeah you can't do that if you don't have some of that foundational stuff aswell.

(01:25:56):
There's still a lot of value to knowing that stuff.
Certainly, no, and I don't mean to say don't, don't, yeah, I'm not holier than thou.
I'll use it.
I'll hop in there, but it can confuse if you don't really know what you're looking at.
Right.
believe that.

(01:26:17):
Anything ah on the horizon or you want to share before we wrap this one up?
yeah.
Well, first off, Brian, thank you for having me.
This is a lot of fun to do.
Yeah, imagine by the time this...
Yeah.
Well, I was about to say, I imagine by the time this comes out, my band will have likelyfinished the tour.

(01:26:40):
We've got about a week and a half left, a little bit more than that.
We're ending next Thursday, which is the 16th.
So...
You might be out before then.
Okay, right on.
Well, I've got a band called Moon Tower and we love our new show, we love our new album.

(01:27:01):
We're selling vinyls of the album that isn't out yet and that's a lot of fun.
Soap Audio is continuing to create some amazing tools that I'm going to be cautious totalk too much about because...
I know how development goes and sometimes a feature set ends up working really well inbeta and then in the release we can't deliver.

(01:27:25):
So I will just say for non-musical applications and some cool unusual musicalapplications, Soap Audio is some great tools coming down the pipeline that I couldn't be
happier about.
um
Other than that, check out Audacity and check out MuseHub and the great people atMuseGroup.

(01:27:51):
Cool.
Yeah, definitely checked it out.
I'll put links in the show notes for people so you can just click on them.
But yeah, Tom, thanks so much.
This has been great.
Thanks for coming by.
Yeah, you too.
Thank you to everybody listening.
Enjoy.
All right.
We did it.
Good deal.