Sarah Belle Reid - Learning Sound and Synthesis - Music Production Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome back, Sarah.
Thank you, I'm happy to be back.
Yeah, so you're in Australia right now for the folks listening, watching, and that'sexciting because you're in tomorrow, I'm in tonight, or yesterday to you, and things are
still okay in the future.

(00:23):
Good.
wild to try to wrap my head around the time difference.
Like getting on the internet at the right time for this call.
It's confusing, but yeah, I'm making it work.
uh
Nice.
Anything fun going on in and ask you what you were doing there?
I don't think it's crocodile wrestling.

(00:44):
things.
um The main reason why I'm here is because I'm performing at the Melbourne InternationalFilm Festival um with a really wonderful artist named Julia Holter, who I've worked with a
bunch before.
I've played on a couple of her records.
um And what we're doing for this visit is we're playing her score for the film uh Passionof Joan of Arc.

(01:11):
which was made, it's a beautiful black and white film that was made in, I think, 1928.
And by Carl Dreher is the filmmaker's name.
And um yeah, it's just a beautiful score.
uh She's written this piece for...
um
voice and percussion and synth and I'm doing trumpet and electronics and there's a fullchoir as well.

(01:38):
Like 15 to 20 person kind of operatic choir.
So it's really epic and really, really fun.
I played a couple other shows or I played one other show earlier this week here and thenjust spent yesterday at this really amazing.
place that I'd love to shout out, which is called MESS.

(01:58):
I don't know if you've heard of it.
It's the Melbourne Electronic Sound Studio, I think is what the acronym stands for.
And it's a nonprofit organization in Melbourne where they have, I think, hundreds andhundreds um of new and vintage electronic instruments.
And you can rent time.

(02:20):
You can book a four-hour slot and say, I'd love to work on the
you know, the old surge modular synth or on this particular key vintage keyboard synth orwhatever you have that you want to work on and they'll help you get it set up and you can
just play it and record with it.
It's amazing.
It's amazing.
I wish we had something like that in my backyard.

(02:42):
Yeah, right?
I've never been and really don't know a lot, but it does seem like so much cool stuffcomes out of there.
Very supportive of the arts and especially really embrace electronic music and forwardthinking, next generation stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's been a good, a very fun time so far.

(03:07):
Do you get much rehearsal for this performance?
With the choir and all that?
two days of rehearsal coming up before we do the performances.
But this is actually a piece that I originally performed with Julia and her band, Ibelieve in 2021 or 2022.

(03:28):
We did it in London.
So we had a few days of rehearsal prior to that and then played a couple shows at theBarbican and at the Huddersfield Contemporary Music Festival.
So it's not my first time playing the music, which definitely helps.
I'd probably normally say for people that might not be familiar with your work, would youtell them what you're up to?

(03:52):
What exactly you mean, trumpets and electronics?
But I think even for people familiar with your work, you're so varied in what you do, soexperimental that...
I don't think anyone that knows you will ever know what you're up to next and how you'redoing this stuff.
And I mean that as a compliment.
Do you mind going into a little bit of what's going on trumpets and electronic wise?

(04:16):
I don't mind to, no, I'm happy to talk about it for this particular series of shows.
Sure, I'm actually making a um YouTube video about my setup and how I'm prepping for thisparticular show uh as well.
So if anyone's kind of curious, that'll come out at some point in the future.
I'm not exactly sure when.

(04:36):
um But, know, so in the past when I did this particular
show with Julia, what I did was I my trumpet and then I was using my computer and I wasusing a program called MaxMSP, which is a programming software where you can, uh it's
extremely flexible and it basically allows you to build any kind of custom audio tool thatyou can imagine from scratch.

(05:05):
So you could build little synth engines, you could build sound processors, delays,glitching.
oh
processor is kind of anything you can dream of.
em And so I was using that and I use that for a lot of my, when I say trumpet electronics,a lot of the time it's trumpet plus max MSP.
em But for this particular time around, I thought it would be a fun opportunity toactually learn some new gear that I've had around for a while that I haven't really been

(05:34):
using.
So I'm doing a new setup for me, which involves uh FX pedals.
which is something a lot of people start with effects pedals, but for some reason for me,like I came in the programming side and effects pedals are actually relatively new.
So it's been really fun to get to know them.
Um, so I'm basically just using, uh, just a couple of pedals.

(06:00):
Like my setup's really small, but the Eventide H90, which is a really great multi-effectspedal.
don't know if you're familiar with it, um, where you can kind of, it's got
tons of beautiful sounding delays and reverbs and um you can run two different programs atonce and you can kind of customize them to be really performable.

(06:21):
So that's my main tool for this show.
And I also recently, I don't know how much you want to actually have me talk about gearhere.
I'm not trying to like promote this gear for anyone, but it's just exciting because it'snew in my life.
em I recently got this pedal called the mixing link, which is also made by Eventide.

(06:43):
And it's really cool because it allows you to just plug your microphone XLR cable straightinto it.
And it acts as a preamp and basically uh a signal mixer so that you can run your micstraight into pedals without needing any other equipment.
And so for me, that's huge.
Like I used to run it into my audio interface and...

(07:05):
my computer and then out from my DAW.
then I like, it was just this huge process.
and now I just use this one pedal and I'm a big fan.
thanks.
Thanks even tied for that.
Yeah.
Yeah, because normally it's like a quarter inch jack for like, yeah.
kind of complicated thing, especially matching levels, right?

(07:27):
Because mic signals are so low um that getting like a good quality, good strength signalinto an effects pedal to process it from a microphone is actually kind of tricky.
So this pedal boosts the signal up and there's all kinds of other helpful but very boringutility things that I won't.

(07:48):
I won't get into, but they're there.
You can read about it if you're curious.
You can watch the video.
Yeah.
And then there's this one other pedal I'm using that's made by a company called ChaseBliss.
They do a lot of really creative, kind of quirky effects pedals.
And this one I'm using, if I remember correctly, it's called Onward.

(08:11):
it basically, em I picked it because I wanted something that could kind of be like alooper.
but like a weird looper.
So I didn't want, you know, I didn't want like a normal looper that gives you perfect fourbar loops.
I wanted something that would sort of distort the sound a little and maybe kind of dochoppy glitchy loops and add a little bit of unpredictability into the sound as I was

(08:37):
playing.
And it does that really well.
So um that's my whole setup.
So pedals, couple pedals and a trumpet.
That's cool.
I guess people like me, guitar players, are used to those and we kind of get to them firstand I've tried to run microphones through them and yeah, it comes out interesting and

(09:00):
weird and but nice to have something that knows how to handle it properly like that.
funny.
I always feel a little bit like I came into the world of electronic music from uh anunusual side, because I think a lot of folks get started either working in DAWs, like
working in Ableton or Logic, or working with effects pedals.

(09:22):
And I just didn't know about those things until I was already kind of doing a lot of stuffwith programming and...
physical computing, kind of instrument design stuff.
And then years in I was like, oh, DAWs are great.
I didn't know about these.

(09:42):
So, just coming at it from a different angle.
a lot of, think, what gives your work its interesting, unique take, because you come fromclassically trained, that kind of background.
I think it's really kind of only recently that even schools have sort of embraced that abit.
You mentioned Stony Brook you were just in recently, and when I was there as a student,

(10:06):
uh There was no sign of that.
And as a guitar player in rock bands, it was so foreign to me to see orchestras andrecitals and all that stuff.
And there was no sign of uh anything I was familiar with.
And now things have changed.
But it's cool that you got into like the Mac stuff, because that's, think maybe a lot ofpeople might know of like Macs for Live and...

(10:37):
totally.
that's the same world.
um I've never learned that stuff.
That to me is, you know, that's for another day, I guess.
m
curve for sure.
I mean, I will say if anyone's curious, it's really fun.
uh It's really rewarding once you get into it because it really is endlessly flexible.

(10:57):
em But it's a big learning curve for sure.
And one thing that I personally realize this might be helpful for someone who's listening.
em think, so I tried to learn Max MSP a long time ago, long before I was deep into theworld of
modular synths and all of that.
And I found it really difficult to wrap my head around all the different concepts and thesignal flow.

(11:22):
Like everything was just so foreign to me.
em And then I took a bunch of years working really deeply with modular synths em andunderstanding that workflow.
And then I went back to learning Max and it was a lot easier.
A lot of the core concepts made a lot more sense.
em

(11:42):
a lot of the way that they kind of name things and the way that you have to connect thingsjust was a lot more intuitive.
So if I were, you know, suggesting to anyone a way of getting into that corner of theworld, I would say start with modular synth focused learning.
You don't need all of the tools.
You can do it all virtual too on a computer.

(12:03):
uh But I would say start there and then venture over into Macs.
Personally, that's my two cents.
Why are you laughing?
a dangerous gateway.
The modular synth board.
I do.
Yeah, no, you're right though.
But it does make sense.
mean, even like guitar players understanding signal flow by, oh, what if I put mydistortion after my reverb?

(12:28):
And what if I mix that around?
It has all come in really handy down the road in all of this stuff.
totally.
Yeah, I guess effects pedals.
recommendation though I haven't heard.
If you want to get into that, start with modular synths.
I know most people, I guess, think modular maybe is like the end of the road of complexityor something, but it can be simpler, I think, than people realize.

(12:56):
em And the reason why I'm saying that, to be clear, it's not, you I think when peoplehear, get into modular synth, they immediately jump to like, go buy uh a wall full of
expensive gear.
And that's not what I'm talking about.
I'm really talking about just the concepts, the modular synthesis concepts.
um The reason why it's so helpful to begin with is because it's you're, it's kind of likeyou're looking under the hood of a car where you've got all your different components, all

(13:23):
your sound generators, all your processors, all the different things.
And you have to decide like, how do I want to put all these Lego building blocks together?
As opposed to just getting the instrument that's pre-built, right?
And so once you kind of can start to wrap your head around that, you have
all this flexibility in terms of designing your own sound and designing your own workflow,which is super, super fun.

(13:45):
um So that's really what I mean.
It's not so much you have to get all the gear and you have to have all the physicalmodules.
It's just about learning the concepts.
for the record, you can do all of that with free software um as well.
So I'm a big fan of uh VCV Rack, which I know we've definitely talked a lot about in thepast.

(14:07):
um
There's a bunch of other virtual softwares that people can check out.
think another one is Cherry Audio.
That's either free or very affordable.
So there's some options to get started without mountains of gear.
Yeah, now I get what you mean, because it's like one thing at a time.
Play with the tone generator, then okay, play with the envelope.

(14:29):
Maybe you remember Korg came out with these, they were like marketed, think, like toysreally.
They were those little like square things and you would connect them with what?
powered, what are they called?
It was like micro bits or something along those lines.
And they helped me understand synthesis a lot when I was first learning because it wasjust this little, okay, this thing is just making a noise and then you plug it into the

(14:56):
next thing and they might've even been like magnetic or something.
Little bits, yeah, right.
Yeah, those are really cool.
thing.
It's like there's something about having all of these pieces and then figuring out how youwant one to flow to the next to the next that it just reveals it like to me anyway, it

(15:21):
reveals the, I don't know, the process in a really clear way.
And of course it also has a learning curve.
takes time.
Everything takes time to learn, know, and patience, but
It can be a lot easier to start with those individual building blocks than to come to likea fully built synth that just feels like a bit of a mystery.

(15:43):
We were like, why is this doing what it's doing?
What's going on behind the panel?
I have no clue how things are connected.
Yeah, it just gives you a taste of like one part at a time.
Cause I can remember playing around with some synths when I, before I knew anything aboutthem at all.
And just turning every knob randomly, not understanding there was even a signal flow tobegin with.

(16:06):
that I'm playing with knobs, LFO and whatever that is.
To me, it was like uh a boy band.
It was.
Do remember like the Abercrombie and Fitch or something like that?
That song, whatever.
yeah, it's probably...

(16:29):
Yeah, they were like, uh yeah, I think they didn't quite hit that level, but they did havea hit.
But getting it pieced apart, same thing with, I think, guitar pedals too.
think it's super similar.
Yeah, because like you might get a vocal chain or like one of these plugins that's toeverything you need for vocals and you're like, what is it?

(16:52):
But if you think about, it's kind of like my guitar pedal.
had a delay, had a chorus and little things at once.
Right.
Yeah.
Exactly.
I noticed, and something I wanted to bring up with you anyway, you say the word fun a lotwhen you're doing this stuff.

(17:13):
And it seems to be a real important part of your whole process.
And I was just kind of looking at your Instagram before we started and you're just playingwith stuff.
It seems to me like you let the fun kind of be the lead in a lot of what you do.

(17:34):
I do.
Yeah.
assuming that maybe in the past, some of the other musical training you had was devoid ofthat aspect.
Cause as I said, when I was in school, I wasn't taking music, but just dropping in onclasses that would fulfill requirements.

(17:55):
And sometimes we'd be
required to go to a recital and I was coming from the punk rock show where we were justgoing crazy and loud and laughing and then you're in the recital where it's so tense.
Um, where you're like scared sitting there even to make a noise and someone's really underthe microscope.

(18:16):
Do you, do you think it's a uh form of rebellion or is it just, was there a discoverymoment for you where, I can have fun or.
I think there were...
totally.
Yeah.
You know, I think there were many, many moments for me.
em But I do, you know, I come from a background, my early musical training was classicalconservatory style.

(18:41):
So anyone who's listening, who's experienced that immediately knows the vibe.
It's very, em it was very strict.
It was very competitive and it was very em kind of all or nothing.
If you weren't playing, practicing your instrument for four to eight hours a day, you werefalling behind.

(19:02):
And it was all about precision and technique and accuracy and execution.
And those were like the words that were central to my creative.
I don't even know if I'd call it a creative practice, but like my trumpet practice for thefirst long time.
And I, like many...

(19:22):
I think like many people experience this.
When I was finishing my undergrad, which was in classical trumpet performance, I washaving a major ah kind of existential crisis where I was just like, wow, I'm done with
school.
This is all I've ever done really is study and play this instrument.

(19:44):
I don't know if I really like it that much anymore because I was...
struggling a lot with performance anxiety.
Speaking of the tension you felt in the concert hall, it's not just in the audience.
It's like you're getting up on stage and every time I would do that, I just felt like Iwas walking the plank, you know, where I was just like, this is a moment where if I make
one mistake, everything is like earth shattering, you know?

(20:08):
And so I put so much pressure on myself to perform at a high level.
And as a result, when you put that amount of pressure on yourself, you don't reallyperform at a high level.
Some people do, like you said.
Some people thrive under that kind of pressure.
For me, though, I didn't really.
em So I was getting ready to maybe pack it all in and quit music altogether.

(20:33):
And thankfully, instead of doing that, I ended up meeting a few wonderful people who justreally approached music in a very different and very unusual way.
And that bit by bit, it's a very long story, but bit by bit, it led me toward the world offree improvisation.
So making music up on the spot with no notes, no chart, no chords, no plan, just playing.

(20:57):
And I was like terrified of that, but also really into it.
I was like, this is amazing.
And that led me in a very roundabout way into the world of electronic music.
And again, it's a long story with many twists and turns, but it was basically at each ofthese steps, I kind of had you ask like, was there a moment for me when I was like, this

(21:21):
could be fun.
I think at each of those steps, I had these little flicker moments where I was like, waita second, this is awesome.
Like I can, it can feel like this.
I can have this much fun on stage.
I'll never forget, there was one performance where it was basically my first time everplaying a
solo piece, was solo trumpet, but it also involved a little bit of improvisation and alittle bit of performance art.

(21:48):
So there was some theatrics.
I had to speak and sing and move a little bit.
And for the first time in my entire life, I was on stage and I paused and I looked at theaudience and I had this moment where I kind of came out of the music and I was like, I'm
having a really good time.
This is awesome.
And then I'm like, okay, wait, Sarah, focus, keep going.
um

(22:09):
And then from that day forward, I was like, want every performance to feel like that orbetter, you know, just because now I knew it was possible.
So I started to seek out collaborations that felt lively and exciting.
And I started to, you know, improvise more.
And every time I saw something that just seemed or met someone that seemed like they mightpush me in a new direction, I was like, okay, this is great.

(22:33):
Let's do this.
em
And now fun is basically like my, and joy, they're basically like my prime directives inmaking music, you know.
um
And one of my favorite questions to ask is how fun can this be?

(22:53):
You know, as I'm walking into my studio in the day, I'm like, instead of, I gonna dosomething good today?
Will I make a track anyone wants to hear?
Blah, blah, like all the questions that usually go through our heads.
um I'm just trying to always ask like, how fun can I make this today?
And that usually leads you somewhere pretty cool.
Yeah, I think so too.

(23:16):
Growing up...
um
really like not having those experiences.
There were some times where we'd play with musicians who were trained and in school and inthe band and they were, you know, scoring high marks on the New York, it's called the
NISMA, New York State, something or other.
And, you know, like they were like sought after colleges were interested in them, butthey'd come and play with us.

(23:44):
And they'd like, what should I do?
we're I don't know, just we're playing A-D-E.
And they'd be like, what do you mean?
You're like top of the class.
So it would take them a while to get out of that.
Whereas we didn't have the training, but we had the kind of recklessness, I guess.

(24:05):
That's so good.
I was like that.
I was like the person who was coming in saying, what do I do for years?
em And I always tell, know, something that I, you know, I do a lot of teaching andsomething that I get asked a lot by my students, especially people who are beginners is,
um you know, do I need music theory?
Do I need formal training in order to make electronic music, in order to learn how modularsynths work?

(24:29):
And a lot of people will actually em delay
getting started sometimes for years until they feel like they have adequate formaltraining.
And I just wish, I want everyone to hear what you just said, because there really is thisgift that can come from not necessarily having all of that training and just using your

(24:50):
ears and your heart and just playing, you know, and figuring it out as you go.
It can be so liberating.
Of course, there's nothing wrong with studying and learning the theory, but you don't.
I really don't think you need it in order to get started playing an instrument like amodular synth.
Or any instrument for that matter.

(25:11):
You can just play.
Yeah, of course it helps and it expands your possibilities and opens doors and things.
But yeah, I see the same thing too.
And I see it in myself even where I need to see another tutorial.
I have to learn how this thing works before I use it or people often, am I ready to makesomething on this?

(25:34):
I need to study, I need to learn the software more.
But the certificate never comes in the mail.
The permission slip never arrives.
You just have to make it yourself and then just push forward.
And there's really no better teacher than that to just...
so true.
Yeah, it's not that we don't want to be refining our skills and studying and learning.

(25:59):
Of course we do.
That's a big part of growing as musicians.
But yeah, what you said, it's about, it's not waiting until a certain point to feel ready,right?
Like you don't, you don't want to wait until, I need, I need.
X number of tutorials and then I'll be ready to start making music.

(26:19):
It's like, no, no, no.
You can start making music and start thinking and expressing yourself creatively, even ifall you have is a pile of rocks and you, you know, that like, you can do that.
It's a decision to make that you're just going to play with what you have.
And then you can go and read the manual for that pile of rocks and learn about how theywork and get deeper into it.

(26:41):
But, you know, it's a lot like
waiting for confidence.
This is something I talk a lot about with my students.
em A lot of the time people think, well, I need to have X and I need to have Y and thenmaybe then I'll be confident, right?
em And they're just kind of waiting to feel confident until, so that they're waiting tofeel confident before they take action and start doing something like make music or

(27:08):
anything.
em But what you, like you just said, we know where confidence actually comes from.
is taking action and doing things before you feel confident, right?
And before you're ready.
em So fumbling your way through a session and playing some wrong notes, but like trying itanyway, over time, if you do that enough, you're gonna start to build that feeling of

(27:34):
confidence, right?
But if you just wait, you're gonna be waiting a long time.
yeah you will and there's so many ways to question it and think you need this or that.
I guess it just becomes a trust.
You give yourself that I'll figure something out, you know, or I won't die from it.

(28:00):
Something, you realize that the consequences aren't so terrible.
Right.
It's a good reminder.
We are making making music at the end of the day.
Yeah, I find myself coming back to like, it's called play music, it's not work music.
Just play, have fun.

(28:20):
So early on too, I feel lucky for this experience where when I was first learning guitar,I'd taken some lessons and my friend lived down the street, best friends.
um I showed him the power chord shape.
And I showed him the spot to put his hand so that I could practice like my pentatonicscale over it and all that.

(28:45):
And then a day or two later, he came back and he was just moving it around and kind ofcame up with a pattern of movement he liked that when I saw, was like, well, that's not
really in the key that I just learned at guitar lessons.
But it sounds cool.
And it was eye opening that.

(29:06):
He doesn't know.
He doesn't know he's not supposed to do that, right?
And like, I barely just learned it.
But it made me kind of understand that, you know, just do it, just try it.
And sometimes, sometimes the more you learn too, the more you do question yourself.

(29:27):
Because I think we start to see all of the things that we don't know.
The more we know, the more we realize that we don't know.
100%.
I agree with that fully.
Yeah, so it's a, you know, something that I really try to do is, it's not easy, but tojust have that kind of beginner's mindset every time I'm walking into my studio or sitting

(29:49):
down with my instrument.
em Because you're right, the more that you learn, the more you realize how much therestill is to learn and you start to see your flaws.
right, and hear your flaws.
But that just shows how much you've learned.
Like if you're hearing all your mistakes and your flaws at the end of every time you makea track and you're like, my God, I can't believe I produced that this way or wow, I could

(30:11):
do so much better on that, you know, production element or whatever it is.
That's actually something to celebrate because that shows how far you've come.
That motivates me to do the next thing.
So, good, like, not good, but, you know, that was off, that didn't sound right.

(30:33):
Now I want to do the next thing.
It gets me a little more excited to move forward.
I think really harping on things and trying to mold it into perfection just gets me morefrustrated and gets me thinking, what's wrong with this?
What am I doing wrong?
Where am I messing up?
And that's just a way less exciting place to be than, you know, exploring new things andtrying to find out ways to solve those issues.

(31:02):
Yeah.
And you know, I know that people know this, but I think it's worth saying again, 99 % ofpeople out there, they're not going to hear the same flaws that you hear in your music,
right?
So you can agonize over some element that you could have mixed better or that you played,I don't know, not quite the way you hoped you could have played it.

(31:25):
And you could let that prevent you from releasing your music and sharing your music, oryou could put it out anyway.
And that's the better option because putting it out anyway, it's going to land andresonate with people.
It might, it might become someone's favorite song and they're not going to hear that flawor they'll hear it and it'll be their favorite part.
Like think about all the artists that you love whose slightly warbly, slightly cracklyvoice or whatever is something that is just iconic and makes them who they are.

(31:54):
Right.
And of course they could play with more technique or more clarity or whatever, but
you're kind of happy they don't because it becomes them.
None of my favorite singers would win American Idol.
None of them.
with trumpet players who I love.
You know, they're all over the place, slipping and sliding out of tune.

(32:15):
And sometimes they've got soft articulation.
All these things that I was taught were wrong and bad technique, but they make their voiceon the instrument so singular.
You know, it just makes them sound like who they are.
And that to me makes just makes it so much more special to listen to.

(32:37):
Yeah, and when you're making your own thing and this happens playing in bands, we, youknow, we make mistakes and it would be like, no one's going to know.
Whereas in the conservatory setting, like everyone knows except like the regular peoplelistening that are just blown away with how nice it sounds.
But

(32:58):
Sometimes when I play with my band, might do a part too long or skip it, or I mess up thefirst verse lyrics with the second verse lyrics.
And it's like, nobody knows that that's not how our songs go.
So, um you just kind of, you just ride it out.
And sometimes even when you make those mistakes, you find a better way.

(33:24):
And it just...
this one live performance I went to when I was a little kid.
It was my first live performance of seeing kind of like a pop band play live.
Sort of pop, I guess.
Pop adjacent.
And they deviated.
Oh, God.
I don't know if I can share that information.
I'm going to let people guess.

(33:44):
I'm going let people guess.
was, it was, I was young.
And I grew up in Canada, so here, folks can send in their guesses.
Anyway.
um So I knew the music inside and out, because I'd listened to the records endlessly.
And I heard them deviate from the form and the song that I knew.

(34:08):
And my mind was blown.
It was so cool.
And it was probably on purpose.
I don't know.
Maybe it was a mistake.
Maybe it was on purpose.
But regardless, those moments when things are different, they're special.
So even if it is a mistake and you're like, whoops, I skipped a verse or I played thistwice as long or whatever, either no one knows or the people who are your big fans, they

(34:30):
know and they're like, this is cool.
I just got a really special experience.
I heard something that's different.
Well, it's part of why I think we like live music.
I get a little bit of a weird feeling.
And as much as I do my Ableton Live thing and I work with clips and stuff like thatsometimes, I do get just this weird feeling when I feel like I'm hearing the exact same

(35:00):
thing that happened in every city, every time.
It's kind of like, well, like...
Why am I here almost?
And now too we can correct everything and make everything so perfect that it's, to mepersonally at least, it's just not as interesting as the stuff that has it's, I don't

(35:27):
know, it's like people wearing too much makeup or airbrushing their pictures compared tolike what they really look like is just so much more interesting.
Yeah, I remember I had a trumpet lesson once with this amazing trumpet player named NateWoolley.
He's based in New York and we've over the years become colleagues and friends, but uh wewere improvising together.

(35:52):
And this was early on in my days as an improviser.
So I was very focused because I was just freshly emerging from my classical training.
I was very focused on getting it right.
I was worried about improvising correctly, which of course,
When you're making music up on the spot, like there's no such thing as correct.
It's like you just make it up.

(36:14):
especially free improvisation.
Obviously some schools of improvisation, like if you're doing kind of straight ahead jazz,stuff like that, there are more rules to follow.
But what I'm talking about is just totally open, totally free.
Play anything that comes to your mind kind of improvisation.
So I was very much focused on getting it right.
And we played together for 10 or 15 minutes and he looked at me and he was like, okay.

(36:36):
That was kind of like a nice handshake, I guess.
It was very surface level.
And he's like, I really want to hear who you are.
Let it be a little ugly.
Let it be a little bit weird.
Let it be beautiful, but just let it be you.
Play.
Really play.
And I had a ton of adrenaline, and I was kind of a little bit like.

(37:01):
How dare he say that, but also a little scared.
So I just kind of went for it.
We played again for another 15 minutes and it was wild.
Like was all over the place.
I made a ton of mistakes.
I cracked, like missed a lot of notes.
You know, I thought it was terrible.
And then at the end of the improvisation, he was just like, he was like, yeah, he's like,you know, you've gotta let the wheels, you've gotta let the wheels almost come off in a

(37:25):
live performance.
in order to know that you're doing something interesting.
That's what he said.
He's like, if you feel like you're just moving forward and everything's super secure andgoing as planned, you're probably not doing anything interesting as an improviser.
But if you feel like the wheels are about to fall off, you know you're getting where youneed to be.

(37:47):
And I've never forgotten that.
And so every time I walk on stage, I'm like, OK, wheels are coming off.
Yeah.
Let's see where we end up.
That's funny.
He's basically the same metaphor when I play with my band.
We like that feeling where it's like you're turning too sharp and the one side of the caris coming off the ground a little bit and there's a chance it's just going to flip over.

(38:14):
But that spot where it just balances and comes back and that's...
It's magic.
fun spot to be because, know, oh, what's going to happen?
It's exciting.
It's uncharted territory a bit.
Exactly.
Yeah.

(38:34):
I'm, I don't know if I said this on the podcast, but I feel like I say it a lot to peoplearound me, but I'm reading this book called Why Greatness Can't Be Planned.
The Myth of the Objective is the subtitle.
And it's all about how when you have a goal and when you know what you want, it likeconstrains you, it limits you and stuff.

(38:56):
And it comes from the perspective of like computer programmers and all of that.
But the...
great things like you don't know what it is really until you're almost there and it reallyadvocates instead of like trying to get yourself to this goal, go out on a limb and when

(39:20):
you go out on the limb then you find the next limb you can grab onto and then from thereyou see the next one that you couldn't see two limbs back and it gets you into those
interesting places.
And it's more about pursuing what's interesting and exciting than what's right.
And when I can remember that when I'm making music, it's so much more fun and it'sexciting.

(39:45):
And sometimes, yeah, like the car blows up and it doesn't work out, but it's...
At least, even when that happens too, it's still like kind of cool.
eh I guess like kind of like explosions too.
But um because the best you can do when you have that goal in mind is like stuff that'salready happened.

(40:12):
Stuff that you've already seen, stuff you've already imagined even.
And yeah, improvisation is a great way to get there.
But like you said too, you can also be like safe about it.
Not really.
You can be.
You can plan it a little too much, which I definitely try not to do.

(40:32):
em But even if you don't want to necessarily be an improvising performer, you can bringelements of improvisation into your workflow in so many different ways.
For example, something that I love to do that's really, really simple and really fun whenI am not exactly sure.

(40:53):
Let's say I've got Ableton open and I want to start a new piece of music and I'm notexactly sure where to begin.
And I don't want to just default to my habits of like, okay, I always start with this toolor I always start with this sound or whatever.
I'll grab two or three random audio files from a folder in my computer that I recordedweeks or months or years prior.

(41:18):
And I have no idea.
If I'm lucky, I have no idea what's in them or I have some idea, you know.
And then I'll just pull them in and I'll drop them in the timeline and I'll layer them ontop of each other and I'll just hit play and I'll see what I hear.
And that's a version of improvisation in a way, because you're taking things and you'remashing them together in some unpredictable way and you're just listening and you're

(41:39):
seeing what's emerging from that.
And then from there, there might be one little sound that you really like or one coollittle combination of sounds from the layers.
And then you could just take that and that could be your starting point.
That's kind of like your first limb, right?
And then from there, you're like, well, now that I've heard that, I've got an idea for mynext step.

(42:00):
And you didn't have it planned out.
You just threw paint on the wall, so to speak, and then ran with what you had.
Yeah, it kind of makes me think of something I wanted to bring up with you too.
You were hanging out with Andrew Huang and you guys were making music without hearing whatthe other person was making.

(42:22):
And, you know, I think that's just so cool because both of you are very accomplishedmusicians.
You guys know your way around theory and everything.
probably at a place that a lot of people that haven't started yet wish they could be at sothey could start.
And here you guys are just throwing all that out the window.

(42:46):
And just to see what happens for the sake of the excitement of it and how are we gonnareact to it now.
I just think that's a really cool way to...
It doesn't have to be every time you make music, but to find little things like that, tojust stir it up a little, you know, let's just see what happens.

(43:10):
especially when you're feeling, you know, a little stuck or a little in your head aboutthe right next move.
Like, that's the right, that's such a good moment to reach for one of these types ofideas.
You know, instead of letting yourself get totally paralyzed by what's the right next move,right?
In this track or this piece, you could just say, OK, I'm going to take a moment.

(43:31):
I'm just going to throw paint on the wall.
I'm just going to grab five samples.
oh
from five different folders and I'm going to play them all at the same time.
And it might be terrible, it gets you moving, right?
It gets you moving in some way.
And even going, wow, that was terrible.
Let me try five others.

(43:52):
That's progress.
That's forward movement, as opposed to just sitting and worrying and wondering what theright move is.
And this project with Andrew, it's something that I call imaginative listening.
I've been doing this with people for years and I've got a couple videos on my YouTubechannel of different people I've collaborated with in this way.

(44:14):
You don't pre-plan, you don't talk about a key or a tempo or anything.
There's no pre-planning and you can't hear each other and you're basically recording a duowhere you are playing at the same time but you have no idea what the other person's doing.
and then you just superimpose the tracks.
It's kind of like what I was just talking about, where you take files from two differentfolders and just drop them together.

(44:37):
It's just that it involves another human.
And the reason why I call it imaginative listening is because the only thing you can do isimagine what might they be doing and listen in the deepest and most curious way possible
to both yourself and to all the possible sounds around you in the world.

(45:00):
It's a really powerful exercise.
It's cool because you might feel some pressure for it to be good, but you've got thebuilt-in excuse.
Like you're off the hook immediately.
Like I can't hear what he's doing.
I don't know what's going to happen.
So you get to be, I love things like that, have like a pressure to them, but because ofthe pressure, it cancels it out.

(45:30):
Like, like that's like the kind of thing.
if.
If I don't know how you guys might do the videos, but I assume it was going to be whateverit was going to be no matter what.
And anyone watching it would be like, well, yeah, I mean, can't blame them.
They can't hear each other.
So you're kind of like free to be anything.

(45:53):
if it's terrible, like, yeah, OK, fair enough.
experiment to begin with.
So yeah, if it's terrible, then well, nothing lost really.
Yeah, but I will say more often than not, it's not terrible.
More often than not, it's really cool.
em just like more often than not, when you grab random samples from your computer and putthem together, there's something cool that you hear.

(46:19):
And I think...
em
There is a state of mind that you kind of have to be in, an open, of curious state ofmind.
Like if you're expecting it to come out like a, you know, traditional key, four on thefloor kind of song structure, you'll probably be disappointed because the likelihood of
that happening with two people who can't hear each other is slim.

(46:39):
But if you're open to something that's a little more, you know, unusual and experimental,em there's always something really magical that happens with these collaborations.
m
What I find is that there's combinations of sounds and gestures and musical moments that Iwould never do if I was letting my brain lead.

(47:04):
Right?
Like if I was thinking, what's the next correct move or what's the music theory correctthing to do?
I would never do some of the things that happen in this, like, imaginative listening kindof
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, I get that sometimes even playing with other people, you just don't look at whatthey're doing.

(47:25):
And you try to figure something out and, oh yeah, you're not supposed to play that.
No, but hey, look at that.
This freedom to just, to suck, like to be terrible is liberating, really.
And it opens new paths and new ideas all the time.

(47:46):
Yeah, that reminds me of em there's a recording engineer that I've worked with a bunch andhe always used to do something that he would call the dare to fail take.
So after you've kind of got it and you've got your recording done and you nailed it, it'sgood, or at least it's good enough, you've got a good take.
Then he'll be like, okay, okay, we're all good here, we've got what we need, let's do adare to fail or a dare to suck or whatever.

(48:11):
take where literally anything could happen.
You could fall on your face.
It doesn't matter because we've already got what we need.
And I swear 99 % of the time that's the take that gets used because people just are like,okay, cool.
They relax a little.
They have a little more fun.
They take a few more chances.
They might make a mistake or two, but they don't let it phase them.

(48:32):
They just keep going.
And there's just always this energy that's so vibrant in those dare to fail takes.
em So I've always, I always try to remind myself that, you know, like, let's just do onemore and like, let's let it rip.
And if it sucks, it sucks.
It doesn't matter.

(48:53):
that Aerosmith does that like once every so often when they rehearse or maybe it'srecording something that's like a dare to suck or kind of that idea where listen
everything is fair game tonight.
I think it's a really clever, clever thing to do.

(49:14):
It opens up a lot.
I love that kind of stuff.
It's my favorite part, I think, of playing with my band that I play with.
Because we don't bring songs to the practice.
I don't write a song and say, OK, guys, this is your part.
We just play and something starts to happen and start blabbering and into the mic andevery once in a while, like if you just have at it long enough, things come together and

(49:47):
things happen and next thing you know, you're pursuing it and it's stuff you would neverdo.
Like you said, you just wouldn't do that on purpose.
Happens.
Right.
Yeah, I think the key to what you just said that, or what I really heard is that you justhave to start.
And I know that sometimes it's a little annoying.

(50:09):
It can be annoying to hear someone be like, what's the best way to get good at somethingor to do this or do that?
just start, you know, can be a bit of a frustrating answer sometimes, but I think it'sreally true.
You know, just start with a single note.
Start with a single brushstroke.
Start with
a single sample, turn on your mic and start mumbling into the microphone and it might notall be golden and it definitely won't be in fact.

(50:36):
It won't all be perfect, but it gets you moving.
And when you have momentum and you're moving, it's like you're climbing the tree.
You've got your limb and then, now you can see something you couldn't see.
It's, you know, and it's fun to come back full circle to the fun part, which is also, youknow, why, why we're here.
It's really important to keep that in mind, the fun part.

(50:57):
That is a great way.
And you kind of just play the numbers game, really.
You just show up enough.
Exactly.
And I like that a lot and I'm really more and more just buying into I'm working as fast asI can and I'm just leaving stuff behind making stuff and that's where I was.
It's like a diary.
I'm not trying to make the masterpiece today.

(51:20):
I'm just making it and that's where I was today and onto the next one.
And I think every time you go through that process too, does, I don't know if it getseasier, but
Maybe it gets easier, you just start to believe in it more and more.

(51:40):
yeah, it builds that trust that in yourself that like, like you will figure it out.
You know, not every day will be your masterpiece.
But yeah, like you said, if you do it enough, you know, you'll land somewhere, you know,when the wheels go on the car and you the reason why you can do that and have fun with it

(52:03):
and not think that's terrifying is that you've done it so many times that you know, nomatter where I land.
I'll figure it out.
Something cool will come of it.
And it just takes jumping in and getting started with what you have and being willing tosuck at it for a while as you build that experience and build that confidence in yourself.

(52:28):
And if you do it regularly, there's always tomorrow.
you can almost just throw every day away in that sense that it's not a big deal really.
I mean, there's so many bigger problems in the world and there's so many more importantthings, you know, to just...

(52:51):
It's real sad when you let all that...
self-doubt and negativity creep into the thing that's supposed to be your release, yourexpression, or whatever you want to call it.
Because it happens very easily.
It really does.
oh
Yeah, it's easy to put so much pressure on yourself about, you know, not just getting itright, but just believing in your ability, you know.

(53:18):
Can I do this?
Does anyone care?
All that kind of stuff.
I mean, I hear it all the time from my students, but I also, there's like, and I thinkit's important to say that, you know, everyone feels those things and thinks those things.
Even the artist who you think.
you being whoever is listening to this, em is like...

(53:41):
immune to those thoughts.
The person who used like, oh, they're just so productive.
They're so amazing.
They make amazing records.
Everything they make is amazing.
Behind the scenes, I promise you, there are piles of discarded tracks, discarded demos,things that never see the light of day.
And they have days where they're just like, oh, I'm not feeling good about this.

(54:04):
I don't know.
Maybe I should scrap this.
Does anyone care?
Like, we're all human.
The difference is that they
They're like, there's tomorrow.
And then they pack it up, they come back the next day, and they just get back to work.
And they do it again and again and again and again.
And they don't let that stop them fully.

(54:24):
I've spoken to people here on right in this seat, just like you, but you're like, evenyou, even you have the doubt, even you're unsure.
Like, I'm sure people are looking at you being like, well, what do you mean?
How could you, everything you do, you seem comfortable and you know how to do this stuff.

(54:47):
You're not afraid to jump into a weird new toy.
You've never even you feel that, but it's.
It's not that I wish those feelings on everybody else, but it is a little bit comfortingto know that everybody pretty much confesses that they have these feelings of the doubt
and the, can't do that again.

(55:09):
They make something great and it's like, how am I ever going to do that again?
So even the success sometimes brings it on.
Absolutely.
Yeah, and I think the thing that's really important is just, okay, so we all have thosefeelings.
We're human.
Welcome to the club.
Now what?
What are you gonna do, right?
Like, you could let it derail you.

(55:30):
You could believe all of those thoughts.
This is a really big thing.
I'm gonna go on a tiny tangent.
I hope that's okay.
It might be a big tangent.
I don't know, but you know, a lot of the time...
we have these thoughts, these things, maybe they're voices in our head or thoughts that wehave on repeat that we've actually kind of adopted from somewhere else.
Like, no one cares.
My music is too noisy, which is a big one.

(55:53):
used to, you know, I, before I released my first record, I sat on it for a long timebecause I was too worried that people were going to think it was too weird, too noisy, too
experimental, you know, and they just wouldn't like it.
And that really became like, I don't know where that came from.
I heard it from someone or I made it up and I started to really think that it was a truth,like a uh objective truth and I started to believe it like it was a truth.

(56:21):
And um for you it might be like, know, no one cares or I'm not a good singer or whateverit is, there might just be this story that you've gotten from someone else or you've.
felt one day and then you've started to really believe as a fact.
And I think it's just so important to remember that they're just stories and they're notobjective truths.

(56:49):
Not unless you make them objective truths, right?
Like you could change that story.
You could swap that story out for any other story and your whole outlook on life andcreativity could change.
So instead of like if you find yourself thinking to yourself every day, I'm a terriblesinger.
and you commit to that story and you believe it, you're gonna have a hard go at things andyou're probably not gonna grow too much as a singer.

(57:16):
But if you choose the story like, I'm learning every time I get in my studio and sing, Iget a little better.
Now you've got a door wide open, right?
And I just think it's so important to remember the power of our thoughts and the fact thatthese things that feel like they are fixed, absolute truths are not.

(57:36):
fixed absolute truths.
Like they're not like, you know, the law of gravity or whatever.
It's just something that we've heard and that we might genuinely feel, but it's kind ofoptional.
So that's been really, really impactful for me is remembering in those moments when I amhaving a kind of crummy day and nothing's going well and I'm having a moment where I'm

(57:59):
just feeling down on myself.
can really, I try to interrupt myself and remind myself like Sarah.
The way that I talk to myself about this is optional.
Like I get to choose.
Do I say, here we are yet again, not finishing a track, you suck at this.
Or am I saying to myself, I know I always figure it out.

(58:21):
If I come back into the studio and I keep an open mind, I always figure it out.
Two stories, two very different outcomes, right?
And I just think that's, yeah, I think it's worth.
worth spending some time reflecting on.
It is, because thoughts just pop in our heads.
They're just sort of like these automatic things.

(58:44):
And it's very easy to just latch onto them and buy into them.
um And you don't have to.
um I've learned that a lot.
There's some meditation, using like an app to meditate and
I found it, where it really became clear to me was in my teaching as a high schoolteacher, because there's some days where things maybe they weren't working out, the kids

(59:13):
weren't excited about it or whatever it is, or I don't know what I'm going to do next.
And then I start spiraling.
It's like, no.
how did you even get to be a teacher?
All these parents trust you with their kids and they spend 40 minutes with you every dayand all you did was just sit through classes and turn in garbagey assignments and here you

(59:37):
are.
like, you know, next thing you know, I'm imagining the news covering my story of likephony exposed, you know, like getting taken out in handcuffs or something because, but
then.
It's like I'm watching that movie.
Like you're a terrible person.

(01:00:00):
My dog's gonna bite me now or something because I'm horrible.
It's like you just take it out and put it in the movie.
Hey, you figured it out before.
You've been here.
You've gotten stuck and you're gonna do your best.
You're gonna try.
You're gonna...
You know, just remind yourself, um you're figuring it out too, and if it goes terribly,it's not the end of the world.

(01:00:25):
But it is really just kind of like choosing.
It's sometimes very hard to be aware of it when it's happening.
But if you can catch it and just change it.
Yeah.
this...
It doesn't have to be true.
It's just...
It has to just pick one that serves you better.

(01:00:48):
Really, reality is just our own perception on things anyway.
So, might as well pick a good one.
choose just a slightly better feeling thought.
It doesn't, you don't have to go all the way from, um you know, I suck at music and no onecares to, you know, something that's just so far on the other side.
Like, I'm a, you know, whatever, a world class, everyone, like, because then your brain'snot going to believe you.

(01:01:13):
Your brain's going be like, this is ridiculous.
But a slightly better feeling thought, like a thought that's
Like every day I'm getting a little better, or I'm figuring this out, or I'm willing totry, or um I know that if I commit to this, something cool will happen.
Just something that when you say it in your body, you have a little bit more kind of hopeand openness.

(01:01:36):
That's where you want to go.
And it can be so powerful.
If you do that every day or a couple times a day, to me now, this is just built into who Iam.
I'm always kind of course correcting the way that I'm thinking about things, but it doestake practice.
I used to walk around with a notebook actually.
And whenever I would notice a kind of limiting thought or something that would make mefeel bummed out, would actually write it down and then I would like sit there and

(01:02:04):
consciously like be like, okay, what's a new, I'd like design a new thought instead.
And then I try it on, like putting on a new hat and be like, yeah, this one feels better.
I'm like, I'm gonna go with this one for a while.
And I'd circle it on the page.
And I just kept doing that over and over again until it kind of became second nature.
uh
It's funny, but sometimes you realize you're saying things to yourself you would never sayto your worst enemy.

(01:02:29):
Or you're saying things to yourself if you heard someone else say, you'd be like, stop it!
You're being stupid.
You'd smack them on the back of the head.
You're being an idiot, come on.
This is a pity party or something.
But sometimes, whether it's writing it down or just paying attention to it, you can...

(01:02:50):
realize what you're going through.
It's very hard to do all the time.
But yeah, I think that's good advice you have that maybe it doesn't have to be like, I'mthe best actually, because that's not a good place to be either, I don't think.

(01:03:12):
yeah.
But yeah, just a little bit of a, yeah, you're having a bad day with this.
Can you make it better?
Can you make it fun, like you said, is a good way to, you know, just make it fun.
So I'm to really lean into the stupid song and make it as stupid as we can.

(01:03:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's so much mental stuff though.
It's funny.
It's a big part of being a musician, right?
mean, it's a technique.
We started early on talking about theory and all of this technical stuff, and that's a bigpart of it.
And studying all that's important.

(01:03:52):
But yeah, the inner game, the mindset stuff is huge.
I didn't realize how much of a role it played really early on in my musical life.
But now I think I spend just as much effort, if not more, working on my
like what's going on up here mentally um as I do, you know, working on productiontechnique and studying new gear and all that kind of stuff.

(01:04:21):
Yeah, they kind of go hand in hand because you get a little more confidence, but there'snever going to be a point where you feel like you're good enough.
And I like that, though, because that means there's more to learn.
There's like, I could get if I was as good as I was ever going to get.
like, oh, that's OK.

(01:04:42):
That's like the finish line or something.
Yeah, I know.
I've always heard there's some, I can't remember who it was right now, a really amazingsaxophone player, I think, who was like, the day that I figured it all out and can play
everything I need to play, it's the day the horn goes in the case and it never comes backout.
Basically like, once I know it all, what's the point?
Because music is about, you know, it's a discovery.

(01:05:07):
It's about re-learning who you are and what's possible.
It kind of just, yeah, it's not about getting it right and knowing all the answers.
Yeah, I think Keith Richards talked about his guitar being the puzzle and like every timethere's a new piece or the pieces go together in a different way and it's not a fixed

(01:05:37):
thing.
Yeah, that's a good way to look at it think because it just keeps it fascinating all thetime.
Can we talk about the course?
The exciting time of the year, it's back.
So if people are listening relatively soon to when this comes out, learning sound andsynthesis is coming back.

(01:06:04):
so this is your course that comes along, I think twice a year maybe.
um I have people from my music production club and people that I interact with online.
and like our Discord and stuff that have been in it and they love it and they get a lotout of it.
On a lot of levels, I think this conversation probably proves that, that it's not justlearning sound and synthesis.

(01:06:30):
There's like...
It's more than that, I think, that you're offering people.
Well, I'm even looking at like, I actually just left this picture that you're playingaround with a couple of the Moog defams and stuff, but you got the quotes from what people
said and, you know, sucking is something, sucking at something is the first step togetting really great at it, which is awesome.

(01:06:56):
So well put, be open to what you don't know, go deeper.
there's a lot of, none of that is like turn the oscillator on to, you know, none of.
that kind of thing.
But I know that's what you're offering too, so it'd be great to hear about it.
design.
Because again, like this whole conversation has been such a great example of that balance.

(01:07:22):
em So the class that I teach is absolutely about how to make music with synthesizers.
It's about how to learn sound synthesis, all of the technical nitty gritty stuff, LFOs andsequencers and oscillators and clocks and all that good stuff.
But then,
That's just one piece of the puzzle.

(01:07:43):
And I think that if you just focus on the technical how-to, you can become a technician,but there's more to it.
I'm really interested in helping people grow as artists and creative thinkers andhonestly, as people.
so the technical how-to is a big part, but then there's another huge part of the classthat's really focused on all of these kinds of conversations.

(01:08:10):
Like when we walk into the studio to sit down at our instrument, what goes through ourhead?
What are some different workflows that we can use to make music and to pull new stuff outof ourselves?
How do we balance practicing and studying with producing or creating?
um How do we work through creative obstacles and blocks?

(01:08:33):
uh
around sharing our music or around getting started or how do we know when something'sdone?
Like all of these big questions that are really not about synthesis, they just applygenerally to being a musician, we definitely spend a lot of time diving deep into.
And I think that em it makes it more fun for me as a teacher to kind of have that broaderum range, but it also makes it a lot more

(01:09:04):
meaningful for the people who are in the class because they're, you know, they're not justgetting the stuff that you could get in a manual, right?
Connect this and that to get that sound.
They're getting that, but then they're also getting the like, okay, and now here are allthese ways to apply this creatively and think about this in a new way and grow your own

(01:09:24):
voice as an artist in the meantime.
Does that make sense?
It makes a lot of sense.
I understand that.
Funny thing too is you can understand it intellectually, but in practice it's still alwayschallenging to implement.

(01:09:46):
So it's good to have.
other people going through it too.
really is like one of the things I love about having conversations like this is that tokind of sort through it and remind yourself of it and understand like how you deal with it
and how you think about it.
How can I pull that in?
And you said be better.

(01:10:06):
I think he said be better people or have better lives, but so often I feel like we'retalking about music, but it's the metaphor for like how to live because these things,
the...
Nobody thinks I'm a good artist.
No one cares or something.
It's the same thing when you're with people and you get a weird text and you're like, oh,are they mad?

(01:10:30):
They're mad at me.
I knew it.
And then you write the whole story of why they're mad at you.
And it's complete fiction.
It doesn't exist.
So it's nice to have that stuff.
And I think it's so cool that
you're bringing that to people.
Because these quotes I'm looking at, it's OK if it takes time.

(01:10:52):
It's OK if it doesn't click right away.
It's OK to have questions.
It's OK.
It's how you know you're growing.
You could be talking about anything, really, and that would apply to.
And that's not in the technical manual or the diagram that shows the signal flow.

(01:11:15):
You know, I started to work all of that into the class because um I don't know if we'vealready talked about this.
I don't think we have.
But when I first started learning synthesis, like we started this conversation off by mesaying, I use MaxMSP and you should learn modular synths and all of this.
What I didn't tell you is that when I was getting started, I struggled so much tounderstand how it all worked.

(01:11:40):
I did not come easy.
It does not come easily to me.
Contrary to popular belief, people look at me and they're like, Sarah, she's got one ofthose brains where technical things just click.
And that's just not true at all.
um It took me years of sitting with modular synths and studying them to finally feelcomfortable and understand how they worked.
And I've brought all of that into my teaching.

(01:12:03):
I'm really grateful that it didn't come easily to me because I think it's made me a muchbetter teacher because every time, you know, at every stop, I was the student who was
like,
But why is that happening?
And like, I don't understand that.
And wait, wait, wait, I've got 10 questions that need answering.
Like, I was that person who was always just like, ask one question, get 10 more.

(01:12:24):
So I teach for that kind of student, right?
I was also the kind of person who didn't feel smart enough to do technical things.
And I was convinced I was too stupid for synthesis, even though I really was so passionateabout it.
I was like, I love these sounds.
I want to do this.
but I'm not smart enough.
um And so when I finally, over many years, I finally started to, it started to click and Istarted to gain the confidence and the fluency, I knew it was really important.

(01:12:55):
If I'm teaching this topic, I need to make sure that from the very beginning, I'maddressing the fact that so many people feel these same feelings.
So many people feel, you know, passionate about synthesis, but overwhelmed.
They feel curious, but they maybe doubt if they're smart enough.

(01:13:16):
They learn the basics and then things start to get a little hard and then they're like, mygod, I'm too far behind.
I've missed the, you know, whatever the story, again, these stories.
um And none of that's true.
Let me just be the first person to say, if you're listening to this and you're like,that's me, I feel too far behind, I don't feel smart enough, it's not true.
I have helped, at this point, this is shocking to me, but I was looking at some of our...

(01:13:39):
numbers in our free, the free class that I have, over 25,000 people have taken that.
And I know for a fact that they've gone through and they've learned on the other side,they've come out making music with synths.
So just know that like, you know, if you do feel like maybe I'm not smart enough or maybeI can't do this, it's not a matter of smarts.

(01:14:01):
It's just a matter of having a process like to help you learn, having a structure to helpyou learn.
and then really starting to um notice the stories that you tell yourself and choosingwhether or not to believe them.
And then, you know, showing up every day.
You also mentioned a community, like having people to talk to, and that's a really bigaspect of things too.

(01:14:25):
um In this class, we have a really amazing community.
There's a forum space on discourse that we have where people um ask questions, share theirmusic, get feedback.
And we also do live calls on Zoom, uh multiple different kinds.
So there's coaching calls where I am basically doing kind of like creative mentorship andgiving people feedback, helping them with their technical questions.

(01:14:49):
We do study halls that are actually led by alumni in the class.
So you can show up with whatever you're working on and just get help or just hang out andco-work.
We do open mics, which are really fun.
So many of the students have had their first.
live performances ever in our Zoom open mics.
And em they're just a really supportive place to try something and also to hear what otherpeople are doing.

(01:15:14):
And so a lot of the time, you know, I've heard from so many people, like, I feel like I'mthe only person on this planet who cares about these weird experimental sounds.
I feel like I'm all alone.
I'm so isolated in my practice.
And then they come into this, the learning sound and synthesis community and they're like,holy crap.
There's hundreds of you, all of these people who get it and they care and they'recelebrating what I'm doing and they're asking questions and it just becomes this beautiful

(01:15:45):
snowball of momentum.
You can tell I'm really passionate about this.
It makes me very excited to talk about because the community element is just so powerful.
Yeah, exactly.
I get so excited about that through my community as well.

(01:16:05):
Like hearing people make stuff and create and overcome that.
And like I never shared anything with anyone before.
And it's so exciting.
And it's, I really take a lot of joy out of that myself and a lot of inspiration because
Yeah, like sometimes you're working on stuff and it's impossible.

(01:16:28):
Like, I can't do it anymore.
How does anyone finish anything?
And then you hear somebody do it you're like, you did it.
Like you were able to do it.
It's not impossible.
There's something about seeing that and hearing people's story.
And yeah, like you said, like that it's not like you were born with modular synths andunderstood it.

(01:16:51):
You've been on that long path and you know what that's like.
And I also know how insanely fun and rewarding it is to get to the, you know, I say theother side, but I'm still learning, obviously.
There's so much I'll always be learning.
There's so much I'm always gonna get deeper into in terms of working with theseinstruments, but there's a bass level of fluency and confidence that comes.

(01:17:15):
And when you get to that point and things start to click, you are gonna have so much fun.
Because the sky's the limit.
You can start to imagine sounds and create them.
You can hear sounds in your favorite songs, like hear a bass line or hear a synth voice inyour favorite song and know how to make it.
It just becomes super, super rewarding.
And so I love seeing people get to that point because then in some ways they're like, Ithink I've made it.

(01:17:41):
And I'm like, this is just the beginning.
Get ready.
Because there's a lot ahead.
Yeah, I can remember that as a guitar player even learning some songs, like, oh, I get it.
And maybe thinking like certain guitar players weren't talented or something.
And then coming back to that music 10 years later and being like, oh, man, there's like awhole level I didn't even know was there.

(01:18:08):
Yeah.
Because it just seems like the horizon keeps getting further off and there's so much moreterrain to explore.
Yeah, yeah, in an exciting way.
So people sign up.
um You want to tell them how to do that?

(01:18:29):
So if they're interested.
Because you've also got free stuff.
There's a lot of valuable stuff there.
I like that you give people a chance to see what it's about first, too.
And you're very generous with that as well.
absolutely.
Yeah, so there's, em well, so I think if people are listening to this shortly after itcame out, then em I'm running a handful of free live workshops em that are basically

(01:19:02):
focused, I'm calling it How to Finally Make Music with Synths without getting overwhelmedor lost in gear.
That's kind of the idea.
So if you're a beginner, if you're like,
I don't know, I've been curious about this for years.
I don't know where to begin.
Every time I look in the how to learn synthesis, I Google that or I YouTube it, I just gettotally overwhelmed with videos and gear and there's just too many options.

(01:19:27):
This is perfect for you.
It's basically like three or four steps of focus on this first.
I'm gonna break down the essential synthesis foundations that you need to be looking atfirst to kind of get a good foundation.
um
Then I am going to teach you one of my favorite kind of processes or recipes for buildingmodular synth patches from scratch.

(01:19:50):
It's only three steps, so it's like digestible.
And by the end, you're going to be like, oh, I do this, I do this, I do this, and I canmake sound.
And you can rinse and repeat and make endless sounds this way.
And then I'm going to share one of my personal favorite.
exercises for developing your sound design skills.
This is like life-changing for me.

(01:20:11):
It's a listening exercise and we're actually gonna do it live in the workshop.
So I'll guide you through a couple of different exercises.
And people always rave about this by the end of the class, they're like, my God, I didn'tsee the connection.
And this listening exercise opened up a lot for me.
um And then finally, I'll uh help people kind of demystify a little bit the process behindchoosing your first synth.

(01:20:34):
Cause that's a big one.
Like where do I start?
What gear do I need?
What do I need first?
And I have a lot of really simple answers to help people get started on that path.
So if you're listening to this soon and you want to join that workshop, I'm running it afew different times to try to reach as many different people, different time zones as

(01:20:55):
possible.
um The link will be soundinsynthesis.com slash workshop.
But maybe we can just leave that in the show notes as well.
Does that sound OK?
absolutely.
please join us.
And if you missed that, um then Learning Sound and Synthesis, the official course, it'sgoing to open up for enrollment um in late August.

(01:21:20):
And it'll be open for one week.
And then I will close enrollment back down and actually run the class.
um So definitely keep an eye out for that as well.
And if it happens to be passed then when you are listening there's still so much goodstuff.
Your YouTube channel is awesome.

(01:21:41):
It's full of creative exercises and you demystify a lot of gear and you play and theInstagram is like that as well.
sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.
I also, I forgot that if you are listening to this in the future and learning soundsynthesis is not open and I'm not running a live workshop, I actually also have um another

(01:22:04):
free introductory class that people can take that's called your first modular synth patch.
And um basically as the name suggests, it's a,
It'll teach you how to make your first modular synth patch.
And it uses a free virtual synth software, so you don't need any gear.
um So we can leave the link to that one as well.

(01:22:25):
And you can join that year round, any day, any time.
You can get yourself started.
and soon enough it opens up again.
So be patient.
six months it opens up.
um Roughly, if anyone has any questions that they want to talk to me about any detailsbehind the class or what to expect or what it's like or anything like that, please don't

(01:22:51):
hesitate to DM me on Instagram or Facebook or anything like that and I'm happy to talk.
I'm excited to see your setup too for this performance that you're doing in Australia.
Playing with some pedals and FX like that.
Sounds fun and I'm sure you're going to do something inventive and unique to your stylewith it.

(01:23:18):
So that should be cool too.
Yeah, it's been a lot of fun to em use this performance as an opportunity to explore abrand new workflow for me.
em It's something that I really like to do.
It's like, got something coming up.
I could do the same old, same old that I've done before, or I could just mix it up a bitand use it as an excuse to learn.

(01:23:41):
Yeah.
Yeah, because we can sometimes fall into our ruts that way.
So finding ways to mix it up is always smart.
Cool.
Well, we will send people that way show notes and everything.
uh yeah, good luck with all that.

(01:24:03):
Thank you.
And thanks for coming on and thank you for anyone listening.
Appreciate having you here.
Have a good day.
Thanks.
Cool.
That was a long one.

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Sarah Belle Reid - Learning Sound and Synthesis

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