Toru - Host of the ProducerHead Podcast - Music Production Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
All right, Julian, welcome to the show.
Good to have you here and kind of turn the tables on you.
Yeah man, I appreciate you making the time.
It's great to be here with you.
Yeah, I had a lot of fun when we spoke on your podcast, Producer Head.
And we spoke even before that just to kind of get to know each other.
And it was nice to learn about you and learn about the show and kind of some of the behindthe scenes stuff that we were talking just about a minute ago.

(00:25):
And here we are on the other side.
Welcome.
Yeah, man, thanks.
It's nice to be here.
Yeah, and it was so fun having you on.
I'm sure we'll do it again before too long.
Yeah, I mean, it's almost a year ago now.
That was, uh, I have your show up here and I think it was September.
It wound up going out of 2024, right?
Yep.
September, 2024, number 15.

(00:46):
And you've been cranking away, man.
Um, I just saw you just put out, I think like number 33, right?
Yeah, we did, man.
And yeah, I mean, I appreciate you saying that, man.
And I'm really I know it's really kind of corny to say, but the time really does.
I did not realize it had been that long since we had put that together and put it out.
So, yeah, it really is.
It's kind of weird how that happens.
But yeah, I appreciate that.

(01:07):
And, know, your show has honestly been a huge like just like model for me.
Like you've been at this for years.
And I think I hope everybody listening like realizes just like.
I don't even know, man.
I the quality is such a subjective thing, but the fact that you've really justconsistently put out episodes every month for years is something people should just, that

(01:27):
alone is really an achievement.
So I appreciate it, you know?
Thanks, man.
I love doing it.
I'm sure that's what's motivating you too.
It's so great to get to talk to people talking to you right now.
And yeah, to be consistent is really just the name of the game.
So much of this.
I know that's something you preach to a lot about showing up.

(01:50):
Like sometimes even when maybe you don't want to, or maybe you're tired, or maybe you feellike I don't have any ideas.
I don't know what to do.
But when I started doing the podcast,
I mean, for a long time, I did every week an episode.
And I guess it was about a year ago.
went to every other week just to let it breathe a little.

(02:10):
I felt kind of bad too, because I'd have like all these awesome conversations with peopleand have no time to really promote it or make clips of it.
It'd be like, onto the next one, onto the next one.
And it'd be like, man, but these like really great things are just flowing by.
It might be a lot for people to try to take in like an hour or two of conversation everysingle week.

(02:33):
I mean, I can't keep up with podcasts that are like that that I love.
Yeah, I mean, there's so much wrapped in this for me, man, because it's like, I it'sreally cool that you found a cadence in a week, every other week, it sounds like right
now.
And I've like, think as you're aware, like I've been doing something similar and thatreally just came from a place of like, it is like a philosophy that we share in terms of

(02:55):
consistency and just really not trying to avoid burnout, like because I didn't want the,and I still don't want the podcast to become my life.
I want to make sure that I'm a musician who has a podcast and not a podcaster who's like ahobby musician.
You know what I mean?
And that's really important to me.
So I think starting out in a place that was like, okay, I know the way that I am.

(03:15):
And like, there's a lot of pressure on like productivity and releasing things at a rapidpace, et cetera, et cetera.
But the reality is, is I'm really fortunate.
You know, my friend, you know, shouts to Matt Diaz, who's helping me produce a lot of theepisodes now.
But when I first started it for the first year or so, I was completely doing it on my own.
So you're and there's so much that goes into it a long video as you know to edit it downand stuff and so I was just like I don't want to burn out.

(03:42):
I just want to make sure this thing keeps going and I think I don't know.
I also think that the weird the productivity trap is just
it makes us so output focused and then we start to treat ourselves almost like factories,We're we're like, treat creative work like they're widgets, you know, like we're building
cars or something where like the model and the map and the blueprint is there and we'renow just gonna, all right, we're just gonna hit this over and over again.

(04:07):
And music and even podcasting, if you really, in my opinion, if you really want everyconversation to be unique.
to that person, you need to take time to help that become a reality by spending time inpreparation and appreciating who that person is ahead of time.
So I do think that there's a really, there are things that you can do to make your processrun more smoothly, but I think orientating a creative process with the guiding principle

(04:39):
of efficiency is a dangerous proposition in my opinion.
Yeah, and sometimes you have to if you want to keep up with some sort of grinding out ofstuff and what you said about being a podcaster who was a musician, you want to be a
musician that's a podcaster, I can relate to that a lot.

(05:00):
Because there are times when, and especially when I was doing it every week, I felt morelike someone that talks about making music.
You know, and like, it's not like my inner doubt and self-critic needs more fuel.
And then I would start thinking about that like, man, I haven't put anything out or justkeep talking about it.

(05:21):
So the only way to sustain that was to kind of almost like factory it up, you know, whereI'm going to do the same thing every time.
And like you, I've got uh excellent help, Animus NVIDIUS, shout out.
He'll be editing this one and he does work as perform module.
Does great work.

(05:43):
makes this much more possible.
um And it allows me a little time to like think about it too, because if you're justchurning it out, you don't even have time to like evaluate what you've done and reflect on
it.
You're just next one, next one, next one.
So having a little space sometimes is nice.
I do like to um kind of like factory things a little bit sometimes.

(06:10):
I'm recording some songs with my band right now.
just four songs like for an EP and for that there's like kind of like a template we'refollowing and that's been cool to help move that along but once we get these four done I
want to like throw that template away and okay let's let's try a new way of doing thingsor or modify it at least a little bit reflect on it just to keep things fresh like you

(06:34):
might have mentioned burnout maybe before we spoke or maybe just now I forget but it'sreal like when you're
pushing yourself and you're trying to be creative and dig deep all the time.
Like, you can burn out on it.
You run out of steam.
And yeah, man, and I agree to your point.
think a hundred percent, like I do think that certain parts of what you do benefit frombeing more thoughtless in a sense, right?

(06:58):
That you kind of create like kind of automatic things over time.
Those things are just going to naturally change because what you're going to want to do isgoing to change.
kind of think about everything in terms of just energy, right?
Like you wake up and you have a certain amount of energy that day.
How are you going to spend it?
And, and if you can kind of, I
think before you build a process, you kind of do have to observe yourself as honestly aspossible and watch how things go and notice that.

(07:27):
And it's a tough thing to do, but that also takes time.
And that can seem at odds with productivity.
But I don't think that it necessarily is.
think it has to do more with like a short term versus a more kind of long term infinitekind of end view about things that like, if I really am somebody who just wants to be
making music, there's really no end to this, you know?

(07:50):
And so with that in mind, I think it's really important to just be like, yeah, like I'mnot trying to win a race.
There's no end to this.
There's never going to be a day where I'm like, oh, I've got production and guitar figuredout.
That's never
going to happen.
If you feel that way, you've become just uninterested, right?
It's not that you've actually figured it out.

(08:11):
And I think when you, in my opinion, it's just like, if you kind of like take that truthof like, there is no end to this thing.
When I finish this one, I'm just going to do another one.
Then it becomes more interesting to think about how you build like your machine if youwant to think about it that way, you know?
Yeah, I like this concept of building a body of work.

(08:33):
That's just what it is.
It's just building a body of work, putting stuff together.
And over time, you just have a lot of stuff.
And it's not so much like I'm trying to get to this or that.
I'm just making, making, yeah, just, I don't know, moving forward as much as you canand...

(08:55):
Like what you said about like being honest with yourself about like your time and yourenergy is pretty true.
Because sometimes when you plan things out a little too much, you might think like, that'swhen you come up with these crazy ideas, like I'm going to go to the gym for two hours
every day.
And that's so hard to do that.
That's like, you're dedicating your life to that really.

(09:17):
when, if you went for 15 minutes, that would be such a substantial increase from where youare.
So.
I gotta make like an album in the next two months might be a little too much, but if youjust, I'm just gonna spend a certain amount of time and create and create, create.
That all adds up, it's little drops in the bucket.

(09:39):
Yeah, 100%.
actually kind of inspired by you too.
It's like I started, like how you're doing these little episodes where you're just kind ofspeaking a little bit of your philosophy, you know, by yourself into the audience.
And I really think that's, I know, cause we both share also like kind of a love for likereading those kinds of things too.
I know we've talked about and honestly, I don't know if I've thanked you, man, but I'veread at least two books that you recommended to me since we talked last year, I read the

(10:04):
Andrew Wong book and I read one of the Matthew Dick books, the story worthy book.
Both of those I've recommended to several people and I would say to everybody,
like both of those are very much worth reading if you're into this at all.
And yeah, if you're listening to this, like I would almost consider it required reading,you know, to an extent.
And...
Sorry, I didn't mean sidetracked but yeah, I do think there's like because of like seeingthat it made me be like Oh I you take in all this stuff in the same way that you listen to

(10:32):
music and you want to make songs taking in all of those words from other people makes mejust like I want to somehow reorganize this in a way to realize because a lot of it has
helped me but the way that it's helped me is maybe not even the way that those peopleintend, know and so what I've tried to do through writing is like and Sharing it in the
same way that you are is kind of doing these

(10:53):
short episodes where I'm like trying to distill the thing that it is, you know, and Ithink you probably know even better than me, writing is words is so hard compared to music
to me.
Like you really, when you start to do that, you really understand like how hard it is tobe clear or communicate a very specific idea to people.

(11:13):
And so I guess I'm saying all that to say that like,
I came across this idea of frequency, the idea of drops in the bucket, right?
So it's like, I think it is...
m
especially in music or creativity, it's like an infinite pool, you know, and like the thecommon kind of thing that happens in music a lot or in the producer community, I guess I

(11:34):
would say is it's like music theory.
A lot of people start making beats and they don't or they start playing an instrument andthey don't really have a grasp on music theory or they don't if they don't come at it
through like an invention, a conventional academic way.
And I was one of those people.
And so I started to kind of chip away intentionally at finding like things that I couldlearn to improve my understanding.
And so I realized that there are a lot of people that almost are like, music theoryremoves the romance, in a sense, for music, you know what I mean?

(12:03):
Like, there's no magic if it's like theory.
And I think that's interesting.
And there's a lot of people that like, want to learn it, but don't know where to start,because it is so vast.
It's like trying to learn a language or like trying to learn math or something.
So I would say...
You pick the most specific thing that you can.
You know, you be really, really specific and then you make everything based on like timeand not about like how far you get.

(12:28):
You don't say like, okay, I'm going to sit down to work on this and I'll stop when I'mdone.
That's, that's a recipe for never, for never like doing anything more than like one time,you know, when you're trying to learn something new.
So.
Jerry Seinfeld has the example when he's talking about writing.
I think he's like a really cool uh person to think about and steal from when it comes tocreative process and consistency.

(12:54):
And he talks a lot about like, if you're starting something new, like writing, forinstance, just literally five minutes is your timer that day, the first day that you sit
down.
And when you do that, like, even if you don't write anything, that's okay, but you can'tdo anything else.
You have to commit to sitting there for five minutes with your pen and your pad.
And for those five minutes, you're going to try to write and whatever happens at the endof the five minutes is what happens And then you come back and you do it tomorrow I think

(13:22):
a cool bonus thing about that that he says is whatever you write that day like because itfeels so good You know when you come up with that musical sketch or you write something
you have something down He's like don't share it with anybody You know you just close itand walk away and walk away with the satisfaction of knowing that you kind of have this
secret that you did this And you come back tomorrow, you

(13:44):
And so I think if it sounds, I always say if it sounds too small or it sounds too easy,well good.
Because if you haven't done it yet, you really don't know what your threshold is fortolerance of pain when it comes to this kind of work.
And you have to commit.
to just doing it.
So I would say start with an amount of time that seems silly, like really easy.

(14:08):
So if five minutes even sounds too big, then make it three.
Keep going until it's small enough to start.
Yeah, because five minutes compared to nothing is a substantial change.
And you don't really need to make these grand, if you try to do these like grand heroicefforts in the beginning, you might do it maybe even a couple of days in a row, but it's

(14:35):
really hard to sustain.
But if you just start building the habit first, I'm going to do it a little bit every day,then you can increase the amount of time and the amount of energy you put into it.
That's a lot easier than
going from zero to a hundred out of nowhere.
I think athletes are a great example and I think your reference to exercise is a greatexample.

(14:57):
If you've never lifted weights before and you try to walk into the gym and bench yourweight, you're gonna hurt yourself and you're not gonna go back for a long time.
And the same thing is likely to happen with your creative work if you try to go in tooheavy right away.
Yeah, and if you're starting at zero at that, like a walk around the block is a hugeupgrade from where you were.

(15:24):
Yeah.
And that's, it sort of speaks to like, I feel like what's inside of what you're saying toa little bit is just a little bit of honesty about where you really are in comparing
yourself and understanding your own progress and not like where you are in relation toother people.
And that is, you know, things that, you know, like,
I'm a big fan of Neil Brennan and he always says, you know, people always say comparisonis the thief of joy Well, not if you compare down, you know, and so if you Stop comparing

(15:54):
yourselves to people that are not really adequate comparisons or work That is not anadequate comparison to your work because even that distinction instead of you're comparing
yourself to the person You know if you're making music compare your music to the music ofother people not to those people and What their lives seem to be like to your life and
that's like a very subtle
little bit important distinction, you know, and something that I used to do, especiallystarting out was when I was making music and I was like, my God, this is so bad.

(16:23):
You know, I was like, I couldn't, was like, man, I was like, nobody can ever hear this.
So one of the most helpful things that I did is I would go to an artist that I waslistening to, and then I would go find their earliest music that I could find.
I was like, what's the first stuff they did, you know, and that's the stuff that I used tolisten to all the time when I got started.
Then that was just what I was listening to is everybody

(16:43):
earliest work and that helped calm me down a little bit so I couldn't recommend enough tokind of like I guess it's the idea of right sizing your comparison to be more critical and
not to like kind of broadly expose yourself to like the Billboard top 100 or like RollingStones greatest albums of all time you know

(17:06):
Yeah, or even hear like the demos of the music you love and hear how it sounded.
I love like those Beatles anthologies when they're just really like these barely fleshedout ideas or that documentary they put out.
Was it called Get Back?
It was called Get Back, yeah.
About the Let It Be sessions and it's like nine hours of them like trying to figure it outand...

(17:32):
it's great.
It's on, I think Disney plus.
It's like a couple parts, but you see him struggle.
And it's funny too, because you'll hear say like Paul McCartney trying to write get backfor instance, there's one example.
And it's not really sounding like much, but you know what it's going to become, but he hasno idea.

(17:55):
And he's looking for it he's like,
going through the fog and trying to find it.
And every once in a while he hits a note and you're like, oh yeah, you're getting there.
Like warmer, warmer.
You kind of like rooting him on.
But I mean, he's an incredible musician, obviously, but it is really cool to see him inthat first few stages of like, I don't know where this is.
And it's kind of the same way we all do it.

(18:16):
We're fumbling in the dark until we kind of grasp something a little bit and then we keepnurturing it.
But there's so much of a leap of faith and
Um, to see some of the greatest ever in that stage too, where they don't know what it'sgoing to be.
And it might not even sound like much yet.
It might sound like garbage throw away stuff, but then you start to hear it come out of itand you're like, wow.

(18:43):
Like, look at that.
This like amazing song that everyone knows and loves started with him just kind of likepounding on one note on the bass, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb mumbling.
And now
That's fun that empowering, you know, because, yeah, we all start there.
Exactly, man.
And I think it again is just another good piece of evidence for like, that's why youcannot or you can try.

(19:08):
But that's why I don't think it's a great idea to think about like efficiency being yourguiding principle.
Because you're like, as you said, you're like kind of fumbling through the dark, you know?
And so I think about creative process, not less in terms of the order in which you dothings, but more like if you're fumbling through the dark, you know, how do you

(19:31):
create a good set of flashlights and develop the experience to know where to point themover time.
And that is what, that's the kind of thing is like I don't think that it can be learnedoutside of experience.
Like I couldn't recommend enough again, like the reading that we talked about.
However, until all of that learning that you do while you read is entirely hypothetical,right?

(19:55):
Until you sit down and try to like really make something that's bad and like stare it inthe face and listen to it, like that is like the best lessons you're gonna learn and that
will recontextualize everything that you've read.
Until then, it's all just kind of stuff floating in the air, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And all this stuff, like I talk about on the podcast and with friends and read, like Iunderstand it intellectually, but that every time I go to do it, it's still hard.

(20:27):
And no one I know has ever said it was easy.
And there's always this like, I'm lost.
I don't know what to do.
can't, all that doubt comes in.
It's, just part of it.
You know, it doesn't go away.
doesn't matter how well you understand it and how much you know, it's just your mind andyou got to work through it.
It's still hard when you get there.

(20:47):
um
Like that's the thing is like let it be is some of the last music they did together as theBeatles right and there as you're describing He's still fumbling through so all having
Abbey Road behind you does not absolve you of the struggles of the creative process Youknow and so I try to Did it okay

(21:09):
Let It Be After.
Beatles nerd, look out.
Okay.
No, but yeah, because I wasn't sure.
No, I appreciate you saying that.
So but even if you take that out, no.
And so pick another one.
So if we go rubber sole, right, if we go back one more, right?
Yeah, like none of that.
Like, you know, you have all of the acclaim that you could and all of the experiment ofreally cool stuff they've done, right?

(21:31):
Revolver and everything else.
so it's I just think I don't know a way that I try to reframe it for myself that hopefullyis helpful to somebody else is I
When I hear those things, I just try to be like, oh, this is an indication that I'm on thepath, you that I'm doing the thing.
You know, it's like, if I'm on this road, these are the things that I see, you know, theseare the buildings that are here.

(21:54):
These are the voices that I hear.
It's the same kind of thing instead of because then if you expect those things and knowthat they're going to come, they don't have as much power to like derail your, your motion
or your attempts, you know.
Yeah, when you were talking about like the episodes of the podcast when you're kind ofwriting about or talking about your philosophies and stuff and I'm thinking about the ones

(22:20):
that I do like that, I don't always know what I'm going to say until I start saying it.
I mean, I might have an idea.
There's a little spark, a little, and it's almost the same thing as if like, I like thesechords, you know, but I don't know.
where I'm going really until I start talking about it.
And maybe that's like kind of like the way talk therapy works too, where you have to juststart trying to take these weird amorphous thoughts you have and then turn them into

(22:52):
actual language.
And in doing so it's like focusing the camera a little bit, but it doesn't happen bysitting on the couch thinking about it.
You know, I have to put the pen to the paper and I have to, or
whether it's talking, I have to start saying it or writing it until, and it's kind of thesame thing, the fumbling through the dark, like each sentence is like kind of pushing away

(23:15):
some of the fog and the mist in the air until I can kind of find what I'm getting at.
But I do a lot of learning in those episodes because I'm trying to sort through what Ithink about it and try to solidify it and give myself even like a little.
nice piffy sentence or two that I can write down somewhere and remember the next time Iget stuck and say things like, um, create recklessly or decide recklessly.

(23:44):
Like this one I like to do a lot where it's, it's not so much about what decision I make,just that I make a decision, choose and go, not make sure I get the right one before I go.
You know, ready, fire aim.
Yeah.

(24:06):
So wow, that's interesting though, man.
So you, for those pieces that you do, you just sit down and start recording and then youkind of edit them based on where you go.
I think most of the time what I'm doing is I'll start writing something.
I'll get the idea, you know, the idea.
I get excited, right?
And then I start writing down things.

(24:26):
A lot of times I wind up with a lot of different bullet points.
Yeah, a lot of it's talking.
Sometimes I wind up actually writing them out too.
It sort of depends just on...
if I'm able to get the words out or not.
Cause sometimes you sit down and talk and you're like, uh, yeah.
So, you know, uh, like, um, it's kind of, and then it's like, okay, let's write it down.

(24:49):
Let's try to get it down.
But sometimes you, I don't know, maybe you just have like a nice cup of coffee orsomething and the words kind of come once in a while, you just get in those moods.
So if that's the case and I can recognize that I might just go off the bullet points, butthat has to be edited too.
You know that and you can.
tell my edits usually when the camera gets a little closer, a little further away.

(25:13):
It's like the little trick I learned somewhere watching somebody about video editing thatif you need to take a pause out there, just like move the camera up a little bit, then
move back a little bit.
little YouTube veteran trick there I like it yeah
Yeah, that stuff though, so much like creativity is like, don't know where the idea isgoing until I get one part of it down first.

(25:39):
I need to get that beat first and then add the guitar part to it or get whichever, youknow, order I decide to do it in.
But every single next thing is a reaction to the last thing I did.
And a lot of it's just trusting, like I'll make a good decision.
and move forward and this decide recklessly idea for me is hopefully my taste comes intoplay.

(26:06):
And if I make a kind of lousy decision here, maybe the next decision will make up for it.
But I'll get a lot more stuff finished and done.
If I go that way, then if every single time I get to a choice, go, okay, now here are myoptions.
What's the best one?
Oh, I could do this.
I could do that.

(26:26):
And of course.
Every single option is infinite, nowadays especially, because I really can find everysingle sound in the computer and every, you know, that we're not limited by anything
anymore.
Yeah, and so I think that's a cool example of how you can kind of make your process more,you know, mechanical in certain ways, right?

(26:49):
In terms of like making decisions ahead of time or giving yourself a time limit on certaininstruments and wherever you have, you're just gonna move on to the next thing, you know?
Because I do think just like, but the thing, the distinction is like making those kinds ofchoices.
if you want to call them efficiency, okay, or productivity, okay, but they're actuallymore in service of your energy and your mood and your interest than they are in like the

(27:16):
efficiency of creating products faster in a more streamlined way.
And so again, it's like, I really do believe in those things.
I think it's like where it can be, where you can get yourself into trouble is losing sightof what the guiding principle or the underlying philosophy of that is, you know, why
you're setting it up that way.

(27:36):
Yeah, so much of the thrill of making music is uncovering it and the next thing.
so if it's like, oh, I made this part, I'm adding this and like, I'm going so fast thatit's just like, wow, wow, wow.
Every little thing that happens compared to the analytical stuff when you're like, okay,so, or the theory, you let that get too much in.

(27:59):
start overthinking things, you start questioning decisions and wondering if I'm doing itthe right way or not.
Um, and even like technical stuff too, there's been times, especially when I first got anykind of recording gear, started getting like probably much more aware that if I position
the microphone here compared to here, like a couple inches on my guitar, it changes thetone completely.

(28:27):
If I move it at an angle on the amp, like it goes from like really bright to like muchbassier.
These, all these things are so subtle.
So I got really like, okay, I've got to make sure I got it all mic'd up right and checkingit and deciding if it's the right way.
Meanwhile, I have nothing to compare it to yet.
I don't know if I need a thin guitar or a thick guitar, but I'm worrying about all thisstuff and not making a lot of progress.

(28:54):
But I just kind of came to the decision that my gear, like moving from like four trackcassette recorders to like.
you know, more modern stuff, even before computers, but it was just going to sound so muchbetter than my four track was that it didn't even matter if I made all the wrong choices

(29:16):
in mic placement and EQing, it's still going to sound so much better.
So I just decided to let that go.
I was like, I'm just going to work, worry about recording the songs.
I had so much more fun.
And I learned so much more because now instead of trying to figure out
how to get the guitar to sound a certain way, I was just recording it and then being like,oh, okay, so because I recorded it that way, it sounds like this.

(29:42):
And then maybe a few songs down the road, I was like, oh, I want it to sound like that oldone I did on that other song, so I'll put it in a similar place.
Instead of maybe making like one song where I tried to get everything what I thought wouldbe perfect, I made like 10 or 15, trying all different things and...
got so much more out of it and had so much more fun.

(30:07):
One of the big things is we do everything right in music in terms of like the kind ofthings that you and I both do and to a lot of people listening also, right?
So it's like, I think it's important to keep in mind some people dedicate their lives tobeing like in studio recording engineers.
Some people dedicate their lives to being mixing engineers and some people, know, etcetera, et cetera, mastering and so on.

(30:31):
So it's like, man, like keeping that in mind, like, Hey, like, do you want to be thatperson or do you want to make music?
You know?
It's like, a way, it's kind of like, you know, do I want to be a podcaster?
Do I want to be a musician?
You know, it's like, do you want to be somebody who makes songs or do you want to besomebody who like has the best sounding guitar in a song that people aren't really
connecting with or a song that you don't really care as much about?

(30:53):
So I think it also speaks to that idea of like, are you doing music for academic purposes,you know, and trying to hit like certain kind of like fidelity thresholds?
Or are you trying to like make a song that you really
I don't know that captures something for you that hopefully you'll share and connect withother people in a similar way.

(31:14):
And there's value to all that stuff.
It is nice to learn and to understand and to study that.
And sometimes that's what I'll do if I'm not feeling particularly inspired.
I try to learn how to use a whatever device or how to place a mic or what happens if I dothis or that.

(31:35):
For me though, the goal is to just like create stuff.
So if I'm in the middle of that, like I'm playing around with microphones and trying to
get a sense of how they sound and I get inspired to make music.
I'll drop that and I'll be like, okay, that this inspiration is way more precious andexciting for me.

(31:56):
So I'll worry about like moving the mic around the room later.
You know, I, if I'm like trying to get the mic to sound nice on drums and all of a suddenI come across a beat that inspires me.
It's like, all right, just leave them where they are and record that beat and go fromthere.
Yeah, I think...
One of the things that I like from that Rick Rubin book a lot is he says like, and I don'tknow where this comes from for him, but the idea is like, as an artist, your job

(32:24):
essentially is to, when you get those strikes of those moments of inspiration, that youfollow those because you don't really get to choose when those happen.
And anybody who does this knows that sometimes like it just happens.
And to your point, like when you're in that place, like you can get distracted with somekind of technical thing.
the more that you can kind of develop the awareness of like, this is happening right nowand just following that through until it's over, you can always come back and deal with

(32:49):
the mic thing later.
And I think something that Dan says, Dan Giffin, is he has sessions that arespecifically...
kind of creation oriented, you know, creativity and others that are more like kind ofadmin stuff.
I think he described it as like kind of left right brain.
Right.
So he'll have sessions where he'll like I'm making music today.

(33:11):
Period.
And then I'll have other sessions where he's like, I'm organizing samples.
I'm you know, I'm collecting things.
I'm I'm searching for samples.
I'm I'm researching, et cetera, et cetera.
Right.
And I think again, like all I agree like all that stuff serves you.
But doing it in a way more holistically that serves like
whatever your higher level kind of vision or goal is, is really important.

(33:35):
And it's a hard thing, like admittedly to maintain because it's easy to get distractedwhen you have like a buzzing cable, for instance, and you're like, where is that coming
from?
And so it does take some practice and all of those things to your point are incrediblyvalid.
And it is like kind of figuring out the way that you kind of structure and budget thattime around it and your intention around it is.

(33:59):
really what makes the difference, I think.
Yeah, it's part of what makes it so hard.
The more like housekeeping stuff, like whether it's organizing files or making sure thingsare neat and here and plugged in and rearranging stuff to be more efficient.
Those are all important.
um Sometimes I find myself using those excuses, those as excuses to not do the work too ofjust knowing like you need to like try to make something because

(34:30):
I don't know if I'm going to make anything.
Like I could try and come up empty handed.
I might not like what I have or whatever, but I know I can like get my wires neat.
You know, I know I can dust the table.
Like that's going to happen.
This carpet will be vacuumed like never before, like professionally because it's easy todo that.

(34:53):
But the making part is a little bit more of an unknown.
So I do know that.
Myself, I'm very easy to fool like that.
Like I'm being productive.
I'm reorganizing the studio.
I'm vacuuming the house.
And really what I'm doing is like, I had a whole day to make music and I was lookingforward to it all week and now I'm scared of it.

(35:19):
I know, I think it's really, I feel like what you're describing is like the press fieldresistance, right?
It's funny how that can really sneak up on you, right?
Because to your point, you're like, no, I'm cleaning, I need to clean, this is dirty, Ishould clean it.
But it's like, hey, what you're actually doing is avoiding it.
And again, I think it also takes experience and some humility to kind of admit that toyourself.

(35:44):
Like, oh, wow, I'm subconsciously avoiding
doing this thing that I know that I like want to do but something and I'm allowing myselfto get distracted and pulled to these other things and I think sometimes those technical
challenges even you know outside of cleaning like technical stuff mix ideas or whichcompressor should I use etc etc like those things can be disguised as like productive

(36:10):
worthwhile things in times where you're like promised yourself that you were gonna like beworking on some kind of project you know so to your point they all
do matter and they all you need to do that but only you know individually whether or notyou're avoiding it or not nobody can tell you that
Yeah, yeah, and Steven Pressfield in this book, War of Art, was probably the first time Iever read about this sort productive procrastination and heard it.

(36:42):
He gave it the label, resistance.
Resistance is the force that is trying to prevent you from doing creative work.
he likes to...
give it this sort of personification.
Like there's the muse and it's a spirit that comes to you when you're working and there'sresistance.
It's like good and evil.
And I think whether or not that's true, it's good to have these labels for things so youcan just identify it quickly.

(37:08):
Like, no, look, this is resistance.
Like, what do I want more to have like a body of work of music or to know that like I wentthrough my life with clean dishes.
Right.
Like my carpet was vacuumed.
So to have it, and that's part of where this whole talking it out too, for me helps a lot.

(37:30):
Then if I can start saying this stuff and documenting it and keeping track of it, theninstead of these sort of cloudy things, I can throw out something like resistance and know
what that means and let it go and move forward.
Yeah, I agree that the naming is so important and like to be fair, it's like you can besuper specific and classify them in like really fine buckets.

(37:57):
But the reality is that is kind of a waste of time when you realize that it all bubbles upto, I'm just avoiding this.
This is all just resistance, right?
You can get really specific, but when you just make the high level categorization, you'relike, oh, and then you can kind of let it go and get back to what you're doing.
And so.
It is really funny how that is.

(38:17):
I think to your point, documenting writing is to me just like, I've learned for me likethe best way to avoid those kinds of things.
Like, I don't think it's possible to like eliminate them from your life.
Like they're just always there.
But I think having a consistent writing practice creates.
It's sort of one of those flashlights to me of being like, helping be aware of like, likethis is what's happening in my life daily.

(38:44):
And then I can be aware of like how I'm avoiding things, not doing things, neglectingthings, maybe spending too much time on something, you know?
m
m What does that look like for you, the consistent writing process?
It's like a journal.
Yeah, so it started for me with a, you're familiar with the artist's way.

(39:07):
So yeah, Julia Cameron.
And so that was one of those books that was recommended to me like a long time ago when Iwas like first starting like to take the production piece of music more seriously and.
I was somebody too, especially before that where I was not, you know, my initial gutreaction was very like, this is very woo woo and et cetera, et And that, but really like,

(39:33):
that's one of those books you don't really read.
It's like, it's actually like a workbook more so than it is reading.
And it kind of, if you, it's the classic thing, it's like, you kind of get out what youput into it.
But one of the fundamental core practices in that book is what she calls morning pages.
And so the idea is like a stream of consciousness.

(39:54):
for like, for three pages.
So it's not a timeline.
It's like you're supposed to fill three pages.
And you're supposed to do it like first thing in the morning.
So that was like kind of my introduction to it.
I had never really spent any time.
I mean, it's funny, like looking back, it made me realize, there were times in my lifewhere like I was interested in this, but I never committed to it in some way.

(40:17):
So I started doing that.
pretty religiously, even when I had finished going through the book.
I was for a period of time, I think I did that book in like 2019.
And I was writing like seven days a week, you know, and in a way, I mean, you know, we hadthe pandemic in there for part of that, right?
So it's like, it's so it's, yeah, so I would say like, what's really interesting about itis if you at the very beginning, I was very

(40:47):
when it was like purely morning pages and I was in that stage, you know that feelingeverybody had like when you get up and you're like kind of your brain is like between
being asleep, you maybe like are starting to forget dreams, but you can kind of stillremember them.
You're getting into your day, you're starting to think about what you have to do.
If you just really, the only rule in that is that you're supposed to just not let the penstop moving, right?

(41:12):
And so the things that will fall out of you at those points in time,
are are just like things that you know are there.
But they go so quickly.
I have to imagine there's hundreds or thousands of thoughts that we have in a day.
I'm just making these numbers up.
But it's got to be thousands, really.

(41:34):
Depending on how you define a thought, I don't know.
But let's say you have thousands of thoughts a day.
Most of them come and go in a way where you're not going to remember them.
And so for me, what I've learned is I don't necessarily officially do morning pagesanymore.
I still do three pages.
I do it at this point usually five days a week.

(41:54):
try to give myself the weekends off because I can be a little obsessive with stuff.
So, but I also, there are times where I go through it I'm not writing and I notice.
oh
that I'm like in other, in work that I'm doing, like, like there's like that built upenergy.
There's something that hasn't been released.
And so getting back to that is a really important thing for me.

(42:14):
I would say the reason that I try to encourage, and this is one of those things I want totry to find a way to do one of those individual like rants about, which I guess I'm kind
of doing right now, but it's like basically like every, everybody has at least two voices.
inside of them and one is kind of like the CEO PR person and the other one is sort of likethe weird like creative like product person that's like kind of in the background right

(42:43):
and so the other thing is I tend to believe like thoughts become words become actionsbecome habits and so on right so
the CEOs and PR thoughts are usually the thoughts that kind of get executed, right?
And those other thoughts in the background by that more creative or wild person is theydon't get written down and they get filtered out by the CEO, PR person.

(43:08):
When you start to write those ideas down, it's the closest you can get to seeing yourthoughts.
It's like a mirror for your insights.
And when you start to do that, the more frequently you're able to do it, the more quickly
you're gonna be able to see patterns in your own life.
So, and again, like connecting it to like kind of that like breaking it down really small.

(43:31):
When I first started that back in the day, I was really intimidated by like writing.
I had no writing practice at all.
So the idea of writing three pages sounded like, I was like, that's a lot, you know?
So I started with like a really small notebook where the pages are really small.
And those were my three pages to start with.
And then over time, I was like, all right, I'll step it up to

(43:52):
bigger book now you know and so now I just use a little notebook but it's like it is soit's the closest you can get to seeing your thoughts and when you start to like let those
like little kind of like more creative or like what what you're more like kind of polishedversion of yourself or with a more polished voice would dismiss
When you start to just let those things exist and you write them down over and over again,you start to just like think about them differently.

(44:18):
And I would say that like things that I've done in music, I think the podcast, even likereaching out to you back when we first met, like all of those things started as just like
little ideas, like, hey, what if I did this?
You know, because for a while starting a podcast seemed like who would I talk to?
Who would want to talk to me, et cetera, et cetera, you know?
But that's like that CEO telling you like, this is crazy.

(44:41):
You know, like that's not gonna, that's not, what are you, who are you to do these kindsof things?
And so, but it wasn't like I wrote it down one time and the next day I had a podcast.
It's like, you know, it builds its kind of strength and volume over time, you know?
And so what you learn through watering that like, to call it secondary doesn't really feelfair, but to call it like a voice that maybe just gets less attention or is dismissed more

(45:04):
quickly as somebody that's like maybe in the clouds too much.
will change the way that you see things and do things if you give that attention.
And so I couldn't recommend enough that people give it a try to some extent.
That's a cool experience.
I have a similar thought about the mind.
It's almost like when you're dreaming, right?

(45:27):
Like things go crazy, right?
There's no logic.
There's no one in control anymore.
It's like the kids are out playing and they've got their imaginations and that's why yourdreams are so insane half the time.
But when you wake up, it's like you said that CEO side, that kind of like orderly adultscomes into play and you know,

(45:48):
straightens you out a little bit.
But in those like groggy moments, it's like, yeah, the kids are still on the playgroundand the adults are like not really aware yet.
And they're still kind of getting away with it.
So it's a very interesting time to capture your thoughts.
And like, in my case, when I'm like taking a shower in the morning to get ready for work,it's like, most of the time still dark out.

(46:14):
A lot of interesting things go through my head.
And a lot of times.
problems get solved.
Ideas for what I'm going to teach at school happen in there.
um They've said, I've read at least, our brain works on problems like when we're sleepingand as we take breaks from things.

(46:37):
It's true of practice they found, they've studied music students that never take breaks.
They play for like four hours and nonstop compare them to
people that play for the same four hours, but take a 10 minute break every once in awhile.
And there's something about the brain that kind of absorbs and processes.
And that happens, think, during our sleep too.

(47:00):
And ah capturing that on paper is, I mean, great.
I've done this a little bit in the past, definitely not as religiously as you're doing it,but you don't have to do much of it even to see the results.
Maybe going back to some of the uh things we said earlier about
even a little bit helps a lot.
Just if you can't do the three pages, maybe you can do the three minutes or something.

(47:24):
But you're not filtering that.
Like you said, it's the idea of the pen moves.
And even if the pen is saying, I don't know what to write, I don't know what to write, ithas to be moving.
And things come out in that.
Yeah.
Because the emphasis again, kind of like we're talking about before on the creativity,it's not about what you write.
It's about taking the time to write.

(47:46):
Right.
And so it's also like we're not talking about handwriting.
We're not talking about punctuation, grammar.
You know, we're not talking about complete ideas or sentences like you may read it later.
I mean, that's the thing is like you never really ever have to read it.
It's just about getting it out.
But if you read it, it may not even make sense later, you know, and that's OK.
The point is not like you're not writing something for anybody but for yourself.

(48:10):
But I know it sounds so I realize like it sounds very woo woo but it is like a very it's avery therapeutic and informative process because it's it's just you're essentially having
conversations you don't have the rest of the day.

(48:30):
Yeah, you're acknowledging what's going on up there.
Like you said, think, man, I bet hundreds of thousands of thoughts a day is a lowestimate, right?
It's nonstop chatter.
mean, meditation will show you that too.
If you sit with your thoughts, the real, this type of meditation I've done anyway, is allabout just noticing that you're doing it.

(48:56):
Focus on your breathing.
You're, all right, let's just follow it.
Next thing you know, you're somewhere else.
And the whole trick is to be like, yeah, I was supposed to be thinking about breathing.
Okay.
And to just see that you're doing it and let it go and not necessarily identify with it.
like those crazy thoughts you might write down in your morning pages, it's not meant to betruth.

(49:21):
It's just, this is what's happening.
And you kind of, um, give it some light of day.
to see what is going on in there.
And from there, you can do a lot with it.
You might get your ideas or you might decide, yeah, maybe it's not so crazy that I reachout to this person or I start a podcast and see who will talk to me or all that kind of

(49:45):
stuff.
You give it a shot.
Because if you let the CEO mind, like you said, think of what happens when companies get
too big and the only goal is to increase profit and they get safe, right?
They only do things that have worked before.

(50:06):
Whereas the whole reason they got there in the first place is because they had someonethat dared to dream and dare to risk things.
And now here we are with the CEO in charge, it's like, well, I don't know if we can takethat chance.
It's going to be, and that's what we kind of do in our brains a little bit.
Yeah, and it's like, I don't even mean to bash the CEO, like, like entirely.

(50:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
job.
That's, that's their job, but they, you don't want that to be the only one that gets asay.
It's kind of like the inner critic too.
Like it's got a job.
It's protecting you, you know, don't make a fool of yourself idiot, but don't let it bethe dictator.
It's not the only one that's in charge.

(50:48):
has a vote, but yeah, hear it out, but let it go if you need to.
And if you think like, you know, given our context, it's like, if you think about this,you know, like a mixing console and a bunch of faders, you know what I mean?
And all the different voices that exist in your head, you know, and like, just be aware ofwhat the levels are of each of those voices.

(51:08):
And sometimes like some of us have them literally on mute, you know, and others on solo,you know what I mean?
And so just being aware of like what that balance is like, I think is a really, issomething that I think is hard to get to without
writing as like part of a practice you know around because other people it's not otherpeople can't necessarily show you because it's like again it's it's inside you know

(51:37):
Well, I think most people don't do it too.
At least that I'm exposed to.
I'll speak for that.
Like, I don't know too many people that do that kind of stuff or spend time meditating andthinking about their thoughts.
You know, like everyone's busy.
No shame to them.

(51:58):
But the more artistic people I know do things like that.
You know, the creative people definitely do.
A lot of people I think who are, you know, quote unquote, like successful in conventionalterms are very structured in how those things happen.

(52:18):
I think like from the outside, it looks like, they just have it.
But I think like, I think you're a great example.
I think I said this when we spoke before, we're like, you know, you are somebody who hascreated a bunch of different kinds of very tangible projects, right?
And have built a very real audience around what you do.
And I think it's like, you understand, like, I mean, as we've talked about neither of us,

(52:40):
is excused from the struggles of creativity and having bad days or days that don't workout the way that we kind of intended when we got up.
That said, I think you understand sort of like that 80-20 kind of distinction, right?
Like these are the important big pieces for me to knock out in order to keep these thingshappening and not getting lost in like, is this mic in the perfect position?

(53:01):
And that is, that is really like kind of like the secret.
That's not a secret in my opinion, is that like, there are no shortcuts.
It's just like, don't try to do everything.
Understand what's important to you and understand what the important parts of that thinghappening are and work according
Hmm.

(53:22):
Yeah, you can do anything you want, but you can't do everything you want.
I do think like, you know, saying no is an important part of it and just something that Ihave to remind myself like a lot of the time, like there are times where...
.
like this is a cool idea, but I can't do this right now.
So like it gets written down somewhere, you know, but I'm like, okay, this, I'm beinghonest, like if I, if I do take this on, then what am I willing to put down?

(53:49):
You know?
And I try to think of, I think we talked about him before too, and this might've beenoffline, but with Cal Newport, who's written like, you know, books around like creativity
and kind of anti, he's like, he's a really great nerdy guy, but really, really, again,somebody who's written a lot and has very, like has a
of clarity around his philosophy and thoughts and so his his book called Slow Productivity

(54:14):
He's like, you shouldn't, he's like any more, like he's like three high level objectivesor goals is a lot, right?
Any more than that, you're probably not getting even done.
And even even three is a lot more than people kind of think, you know?
And so the way that I've been thinking about it for me is, you know, music, like makingmusic, my catalog, the second part is the podcast.

(54:37):
And the third part recently has been practicing.
Like I'm really trying to like help like rev up chops and I wanna have a gig and so thethird leg
kind of performance.
So like those are the three things that I try to stay focused on, right?
There are smaller, I'm talking about this with people, say it's like a pinata thing.
So like those are the three big things.
If I break each of those up, those are comprised of kind of projects.

(55:01):
And then those projects are comprised of like actual like actions I need to take, youknow, and figuring out how to structure those in time.
But if something I'm doing is not laddering up to one of those three things, then I'm notdoing
what I said was important to me, you know what I mean?
And so those are the things that I try to like reflect on and when I make my list for theday I'm like okay these things I want to do because they're helping me achieve one of

(55:25):
those three things.
Yeah, that's a good way to think of it.
Yeah, like working on even one big thing is a lot.
Did I see this clip, maybe it was from you.
um Somebody saying that think of like the number of things you think you can do and likesubtract two from it.

(55:48):
No?
Okay.
Something like that.
Like if you think you do five things and try to do three, if you think you can only dothree things, do one.
Yeah, and that's the thing, man, is like start smaller and like, you know, give yourselflike some real evidence about what you can accomplish.
You know what mean?
And not in a way where you're judging yourself in comparison to what you think otherpeople are doing.

(56:08):
Like if you compare yourself to as a podcaster to Tim Fairs, that's not fair, right?
It's not you're not in the same place.
You're not in the same level of resources, etc, etc.
Right.
So you really do have to be careful about how you do those things.
And I think, again, like right sizing that.
understanding what your goals are, what do you want?

(56:29):
Are you saying that you want things because this is what other people seem to want?
You know, or is this actually your goal?
You know, and I think like just developing that clarity is so helpful in like kind ofbeing like, okay, some of that stuff is just noise.
Like I get it.
Like that would be cool to like be able to talk to that person or it would be cool todrive this car.

(56:49):
But is that really like what I'm doing right now?
Or does any of that have to do with like this?
task at hand.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I like, like when I think of the podcast too, the real beauty of it is just doing itas its own reward.
Like if we were just having this conversation and it never got published, it's valuable tome.

(57:15):
I'm learning a lot.
thinking a lot about stuff and I'm evaluating myself and figuring out like how you workand what I can take away from that.
Like all this stuff is like seeping in.
It wouldn't matter if this didn't go anywhere.
The fact that it can is just bonus really.
And I love things like that.

(57:36):
like, you know, even just like making music, it just makes me a better person.
I've learned how to be calmer, more relaxed.
I've learned how to have patience.
I've learned how to work with other people.
It's done so much aside from just the music itself.
just the reward of finishing something, which is a whole other layer.

(58:01):
finding things on those levels, even like making packs for me has been so rewardingbecause I have all these sounds now.
That's great.
And the fact that people want them or want to use them or make music with them is again,it's like bonus material.
Yeah, man, I...
I really share a lot of that, that feeling that you described in terms of like thisconversation in and of itself for the participants is worthwhile, you know, and that's why

(58:29):
we share it because the interesting like kind of paradox is like there is only you, you'rethe only you, but you're also just like everybody else.
So if this works for us, it's going to work for somebody else.
And so I do feel really grateful.
mean, I think we've had a similar experience.
Obviously you're having spent much more time in this

(58:50):
space, I didn't I mean, it's so obvious in hindsight, but the amount that I've learnedthrough the podcast of like having people on and their willingness to share the things
that they figured out.
And some of these people I had already known in person, some of them I've since met inreal life after the fact.

(59:10):
And so it's just.
in a world where like I think music production, especially because of how technology isadvanced and because of the accessibility in our in our own rooms, we do so much by
ourselves.
So it's been this really nice way to just genuinely get time one on one with somebody andjust talk in depth about random things that come up that are very specific to what we

(59:31):
experience as musicians.
When did you get like your permission slip in the mail to do your podcast or yourcertificate or your degree that gave you the right to make this podcast?
The producer head?
So I just signed up at Phoenix University for the podcast Acceleration.
But no, yeah, man, to that point, that's why I just, to anybody listening, like, I just, Ithink one of the biggest light bulbs for me was just like, the more that you dig into

(01:00:03):
stuff and get, you and you get nerdy about musicians or writers or filmmakers, whatever ithappens to be, at some point, I just was like, wow, these are just people, you know, and
they just like didn't give
up and so much, whether you like experience like the material external success andrecognition, I think like what you learn and experience through just trying to do stuff

(01:00:29):
is, I don't know, it's just, it's hard to put words to that.
And so what I've learned in just committing to do this,
because of what it is to have a podcast, know, like this is the fun part, right?
We just get to like talk about this stuff.
There's like, you know, like the scheduling and like the outreach and there's, you know,the organization and the social.

(01:00:52):
It's like, there's a lot of things that are less glamorous than just having thisconversation.
But by committing to the process overall and just be like, I'm gonna just keep doing thisbecause...
I feel great after the conversation and when it comes out, I'm like, man, you know, thisis cool.
And somebody sends you a message and goes, Hey, like I learned something.
This is really cool.
I didn't even know this person's music existed and now I'm listening to it.

(01:01:15):
Some people have like collaborated as a result of it.
You know, it's like stuff like that is just like, how do you put a price on that?
And I'm just another dude who just started a podcast, you know?
Hmm.
Yeah, I'd say that because I think for a lot of us, feels sort of like we're beingarrogant almost to like, cause like, the hell am I to do this?

(01:01:40):
And who the hell am I to like put a song on Spotify?
Who am I to, right?
Like it feels like you, somebody needs to ordain me first and give me the permission.
let me into the club or something.
But you just sort of do it.

(01:02:02):
You just become it.
You declare it yourself.
You adopt it as an identity and that's what people that do podcasts do.
That's what people that make music do.
And that's what I am.
And I've found like, and I think you have too, that you get kind of surprised sometimeswhere

(01:02:23):
You can sense that some people are like, happened to when I started doing live packs,right?
Like I didn't know much about Ableton Live at all at the time.
I just figured out how to use the sampler and I was putting stuff in it and makinginstruments.
And I decided to just make them available for people to download.
And people thought I was like some sort of Ableton Live expert.

(01:02:48):
I was like, I don't know.
just, they'd ask me questions about other stuff.
really sure but sometimes I'd figure it out.
I'm like, oh let me see if I can figure that out for this person.
I can't believe someone wants to know an answer from me.
And through that process I started to learn and I was showing up trying to make themconsistently and you know next thing you know you're like I actually do know a lot about

(01:03:14):
this now.
I do know something about putting on a podcast or whatever.
Yeah, and bring us the present day, you're an Ableton certified trainer.
Yeah, the thing that really gets me, I think the most is like I teach this Berkeley onlineclass, Sampling in Ableton Live.
And I got people in the class that are getting degrees that I don't have.

(01:03:37):
And I'm a teacher, like I don't have a music degree.
And like, here you are going to Berkeley and taking this class.
Like, it's kind of funny.
And sometimes that really fuels the imposter syndrome too.
Mm Sure.
what are they going to realize that I'm just like some idiot that's been, you know, justrunning his mouth about this stuff.

(01:03:59):
But there's no certificate that comes in the mail.
There's no, you know, official doctrine that you can now be a podcast or Julian.
Congratulations.
You've, you've paid your dues or something.
And so much of it, you just have to go at, just do.
And I think that's.

(01:04:19):
If we all had to go through that, we'd probably have a lot more of the same.
We'd be all trained the same way and do things the same way and everything would look thesame.
But because we don't, that's why we get like variety and like the stuff you do, eventhough we're talking about similar topics, it's different.
The stuff like you mentioned, Dan Giffin's Ableton Producer podcast, like his isdifferent.

(01:04:44):
He's got a different feel to it.
Like all the podcasts I have even if they're almost like the same genre they there's adifferent feeling it's just because the personalities
And that's like our secret weapon.
all, luckily, are unique and weird in our own ways.

(01:05:05):
Yeah, man.
And to your point around permission, I think I do think Andrew Wong's book is like, Imean, even if you never read it, I mean, the title is Make Your Own Rules.
And when you read that book, I mean, I have so much respect for his his like hiseverything.
I mean, it's crazy how hard he has worked and continues to work and what he's the way thathe's developed.

(01:05:27):
And his whole thing is, just that.
Like there was no blueprint.
There were people that told him he was crazy and wasting his time that he
should have been like working at YouTube, helping creators grow their channel instead ofjust continuing to build his own.
And so, you know, it's, is, it is, there is nothing harder.
I, in my opinion, like it is really hard to recommit to that every day.

(01:05:50):
You know, there's.
I like Seth Godin's attitude about certain things and he says, you know, like he's like,make the decision once and you never have to make it again.
And so I think that's an interesting way to think about it.
I also, again, I'm, you know, I keep beating this drum on like writing, but I do thinkwriting is a good way to remind yourself of like, Hey, like I'm doing this, you know,

(01:06:11):
whatever it is and like, and really, and really committing to that.
And that it's, it's a hard thing to do because really what we're presented with throughsocials and stuff all the time is there's a lot of like these models.
that are just implicit in what we're seeing in terms of the way that people behave and theway they do it.
So we kind of feel like, we should do this thing.
But.
It is like the more that you, the more directly that you can connect with whatever it isthat that makes you you is like, that's the shortest path, I think, to to making things

(01:06:43):
that you're going to really feel good about and that other people will really recognize.
Because my belief is that we do have a radar for when people are connecting withthemselves, like when a song is really hitting, like we can tell when we watch somebody
perform something like, like this person's in it.
And that's the thing that clicks in us.
Yeah.

(01:07:04):
Yeah, it's not like a thing.
Like you said, like this, the YouTube thing, the podcast thing, like those are themediums, but the thing is whatever you're bringing to it.
And a lot of people try to do the YouTube thing or the podcast thing.
And a lot of those don't last because they're trying to emulate.

(01:07:26):
And I can't be Andrew Huang.
Like I know that, like I'm just not him.
I mean, he's incredibly talented.
His way of seeing things is different.
Um, it's just not going to work.
There's other guys I love.
Um, Tim, you suck at producing.
He's got his own angle.
You know, his work.
Um, yeah.
Underbelly, right?

(01:07:47):
Yeah.
Like, I mean, I remember when he had like 30,000 subscribers, he came on the podcast andyou know, was, and it was like much more homemade.
But he had his snark and humor to it.
kind of, yeah, it's different.
I can't do that.
I can't be him.

(01:08:09):
And he's already doing it anyway.
Finding your own thing is, it's the trick, I guess.
I still feel like I need to figure that out too.
I'm always like, what am I doing?
What is this identity I have?

(01:08:30):
What you said about Seth Godin makes me think of like identity, like to decide, like, I'mthe kind of person that does this.
And he's a writer every single day.
puts out that blog, Seth.blog.
I read it every day.
He's always got something interesting.
Um, and short and quick.
And, but like, I couldn't be him either.
Like, that's not the, it's not the point to like, I'm not going to do the Seth thing.

(01:08:54):
like, I'm going to figure out what my thing is.
Yeah, I mean somebody, so I couldn't recommend that people go listen to this dude.
He's a New York guy, he goes by Nothing New.
And he came on, I think it's like episode nine, right?
I don't have as many episodes as you so it's easier to remember.
But he said something to me that stuck with me and I've said to so many people just likein passing since then, which is just like, you you're born with a lane.

(01:09:21):
Like everybody is given one.
And we all spend so much time.
trying to find another one.
vacate our own lane that nobody else can fit in, that we already have from the beginning,and we spend a lot of time trying to get into other ones and be other things.
Where it's like, if you can just accept and embrace the lane that you're given that youhave from the beginning, again, I just think that's the shortest path to getting to a

(01:09:47):
place where you can...
really waste a lot less time and just worry, work on hitting that, striking that chordover and over again, you know?
It's getting me to think, one of the things you wrote about, like things we can talk aboutin the little email there was like goals and defining success.

(01:10:13):
I've never really had these goals too much.
I've like kind of wound up where I am a lot of the times.
like wound up making live packs, wound up Ableton certified trainer, wound up doing apodcast, you know?

(01:10:35):
And so many people talk so much about like, need the goal, you need to that vision.
I do think there is some value to that.
But I'm also really starting to believe that sometimes like those goals are the problem.
Like if I, I'm going to do the YouTube thing, right?
I'm going to be like whoever Mr.
Beast.
I'm going to like in trying to figure that out, I would miss so many other things thatmight be a little more me.

(01:11:03):
It might fit me a little better.
I might enjoy better.
It might be more true to who I am.
I'm kind of curious what you think about all that and what you had in mind when you weretalking about that.
Because yeah, I'm wondering if it's more about just charging forward and seeing what youuncover.

(01:11:26):
Yeah, well, mean, think the way that I think about it, I mean, there's so many ways,right?
I do think it's important to like...
to have them be conscious on some level.
I'm very hesitant to tell people, to tell anybody, what their goals should be.
But I think it's, again, it's just really more so about clarity.

(01:11:47):
So I think, I would say for you, even the way that I described some of the things that Iwas talking about before, if I'm talking about podcasts, I'm talking about making music,
and I'm talking about playing live.
Those are things where like, those things aren't goals.
Those are like ongoing, like projects with no end.
But I think of them as like, those are like kind of the legs that I wanna support becauseI would argue, like I understand like they're not really goals necessarily like, I wanna

(01:12:11):
hit like a certain level of something.
However, the way that like, I frame what you just like just said to me about the way thatyou, what you've done is like.
I think even if it were subconscious, you're like, I want to make stuff.
I want to make these packs.
And it started out, and you didn't say, I'm going to make these packs forever.

(01:12:32):
But you're like, I want to make stuff.
These packs kind of fall into that.
And you also understood, because of the kind of guy that you are, that there's embedded inlearning, inherent in all of that, that you're going to pick up.
And all of that's going to accumulate over time.
And then I would argue that you've stacked it in a way that makes a lot of sense.
The podcast and the YouTube channel, for instance, are just mediums to collect what you'realready doing.

(01:12:57):
You didn't really create like it's not to discount the amount of work because the qualityof content you put out is very high.
But it is to say that like you didn't create a separate stream of work.
You're like, this is what I'm doing.
I'm not just going to make videos and conversations about the other stuff that I'm doing.
Do you know what I mean?
And so it kind of becomes, in my opinion, like a way to document what's happening.
And that's what I encourage people to do also is to like, because you can't do everything.

(01:13:21):
What do you really like to do?
Do that, you know, instead of like making content creation a separate job, like how canyou be like, hey, like this is what I like to do and how can I repurpose this or use this
as content?
And again, this is where like things like efficiency are useful, you know, andunderstanding because this isn't in service of efficiency for efficiency sake.

(01:13:44):
It's in service of you spending your time the way that you want to spend it, learning anddoing the things that you want to do.
Right, okay, so like as I think about it, my way of putting goals is more like I want totry to do something with music every day.

(01:14:05):
Whatever that means.
Or I want to try to exercise every day.
If I make my goal, I need to have 50,000 subscribers on YouTube, I've failed.
Right, I'm not there.
or if it's going to be, want to lose this much weight or gain this much weight muscle.
If I don't get to that, I've failed, even though I may have put in all the things.

(01:14:29):
I might be doing the steps that will eventually get me to those types of things, but...
the, if I let those be my benchmarks, I can get disappointed in it.
And then sometimes you look at numbers and you thought, man, how come, you know, why can'tit be more?
And this person has so much of that.

(01:14:50):
And you do the comparison thing.
But when I think of the goal as more immediate, where I kind of get the feedback almost ifI can, like every day, or at least every week,
I feel kind of good about like with the podcast, more like every, it's kind of, it's stillkind of a weekly thing because I try to get one released every week and then I try to make

(01:15:13):
the clips for it the next week.
That's kind of been my goal with it.
And yeah, but like to get, you know, this many subscribers, I don't even hardly know howyou figure out how many subscribers you have, but um that is so much less in my control.

(01:15:35):
Like that that is exactly what I'm thinking the whole time you're saying this right?
It's like
Liz Gilbert, she wrote like, pray love big magic, things like that.
She said something that I was listening to her.
was on a, love Mike, big Lee is podcasts working it out.
So good.
But she, their interview, she was on with him recently was, was great.
And she dropped this line that was like, you have the right to your work, but not like youhave the right to your labor, but not the fruits of your labor.

(01:16:00):
Right.
And so, and it comes back to kind of what we saying too, about like the permission and thepodcast stuff.
It's like, do you want to like be somebody like you like the idea of having.
like recognition or do you want to actually do the project?
Because you can control whether or not you do the project within whatever the bounds ofyour life are, but you do not get to control like whether or not it's success.

(01:16:25):
And Chris Rock has a similar line where he's like, you cannot control whether or not it'sa success.
You can make sure it's good.
And I, and so I try to like, to everybody that like, I know I'm always just like, Itotally get it.
And like, that's something that comes up for me in writing a lot.
I'm like, Hey, where's that line between what I can control and what I can't control?

(01:16:47):
Thoughts, words, actions.
After that, it's, it's up to everybody.
It's, up to somebody else, you know, or things that I can't really quantify or organize.
So
And again, we get, you wake up with like a fixed quantity of energy every day, right?
All you're doing is expending it throughout the day.
So all the time that you spend expanding it on things that you really cannot influence inany way, you're only, you're now making it that much harder to do anything else to

(01:17:15):
everything that you do, you're not doing with less than you can do it with.
So
The feeling that I have about it is just like, you can't control whether or not it's asuccess.
You can't control whether it's good.
And if it's good, that's like the best, as far as I know, that's the best you can do toincrease the probability of success.

(01:17:36):
Right.
I like that way of thinking the fixed energy.
because yeah, like it's easy to just burn the energy worrying about things that, you know,don't matter.
It's like you're in a video game and your energy bar is like going down for no reason.
I don't mean to make it like it's not so bleak, but like in a way it's just like, you're,you know, your energy level and your moods will fluctuate throughout the day.

(01:18:01):
But generally speaking, you know, you're just getting more tired as the day goes on.
So just being aware of that.
Yeah.
And so, and what, you know, the only thing you can really do to make that better is to,you know, take your recovery more seriously.
But that's like a whole nother thing, you know, but.
But I could apply that to myself and the way I consume content.

(01:18:21):
You know, I love to keep track of what's going on, what's new, what's the news, what's thenew updates and what plugins and you know, all this stuff, super booth just happened.
It's like, man, all this new stuff's coming out and you read it.
Uh, and I often do that before I start making my music.
Um, but that is like,

(01:18:43):
a depletion of energy.
I'd be much better off doing that as I'm like trying to stay awake in bed or you know inmy final hours where my energy is like practically worthless anyway instead of when I'm
fresh.
but I know, like, because a while back, you had told me that you had read like the fourhour work week and I never read that book.

(01:19:06):
But like recently he dropped like a little audio portion of it and I was and so I listenedto a little bit of it like a couple of weeks ago for the first time.
And so it really hit me because it made me realize, I mean, part of why I started apodcast was because like I really enjoy them.
I was listening to so many right.
Arguably too many.
But.
It made me think of basically this idea of just how much information we consume, right?

(01:19:30):
You're like, there's just so much stuff happening.
And I think it made me realize like how much less I listen, I have been listening tomusic.
And so his thing was like, know, in this thing was like, cut yourself off from likeinformation, period, right?
But music.
information diet, right?
exactly.

(01:19:50):
then music though was like unlimited, like allowed in an unlimited quantity.
And I was like, wow.
And I was like, and I did that last week and I was like.
I'm like, man, like the amount of energy that I am taking in podcasts stuff, making notesabout it or like, or like, you know, thinking through these things, trying to follow these

(01:20:10):
conversations and thinking about whatever these ideas are, how much that actually does ina pretty insidious way, like require energy.
And you think it doesn't cause it's sort of this like, I also think it's like kind of alittle weird because it's, like infotainment.
It's not necessarily like purely like real education necessarily.
And it's and it's and it's and so I've realized I'm like, wow, like this is I think thisis I was like, I think podcasts are actually a form of resistance for me.

(01:20:37):
Like, and I need to actually dial this down.
And so I'm now like rat like coming back up trying to be more intentional about what Ilisten to, how much in a given day I allow myself to listen to it.
And honestly, like just this past week of just listening to like hours of music likethroughout the day, whether it's like super like super attentively or just in the
background, the way that just like even like the little

(01:21:00):
bar sketches I've made in the last week I'm like wow this is different you know so
It's just been really a good reminder of like stuff I already knew that I just really gotaway from.
And I'm like, wow, it is like, I don't need all of that stuff.
And I think when I started the podcast too, it's like, I'm always like, now I'm listeningto podcasts differently.
I imagine it happens to you too.

(01:21:20):
pay more attention to the host probably than I did before because I'm trying to figureout, okay, how can I be a better host?
What are good questions?
You know, what are interesting little things to.
to make it more me or whatever it happens to be, you know?
And so, but that has come at the cost of my music, right?
And so back to the original thing and the identity we were talking about, that's fine if Iwanna just be the podcaster, but if I wanna be the musician that has a podcast, let's

(01:21:48):
rework like my diet, because it's essentially diet is the way that I think about it, whatyou're taking in.
And if I'm taking in more podcasts and education and all that stuff, more than I am themusic,
It doesn't, shouldn't be surprising that my output is more podcast focused.
Yeah, that's a good point.

(01:22:09):
Yeah, cause we're no shortage of information and every single platform out there is vyingfor your attention, trying to make you think it's important and care about it.
And whether it's news, whether it's, like you said, the fun stuff, the podcast, I want tohear what this artist has to say.
I want to hear what they have to say.

(01:22:31):
And this, oh, cool.
That'd be fun to listen to.
It is.
part of your diet.
I do it a lot.
I have a lot of things I like to follow, lot of YouTubers I like to keep up with, and allkinds of stuff that does cut into it.

(01:22:51):
I think one thing that works for me nicely is having a kind of longer commute to work.
It's like a 40 minute or so commute each way.
So I can consume in that amount of time.
do my exercises, I tend to put on like a YouTube video or a couple of them to catch up.

(01:23:11):
But that's probably all I need.
the other amount of hours, who knows per day probably, like is probably excessive.
Yeah, that's the one piece where I'm a little bit critical of myself right now where Ineed to like, because you are what you eat, you know what I mean?
And so I think it is, and there is such a thing as like gluttony when it comes to likethis stuff, but it just doesn't hit you the same way because like, you know, it's less

(01:23:38):
like eating a giant meal.
So yeah, I don't know, man.
like the super booth stuff, I've found myself on Sweetwater a few more times than normal,probably.
I really buy anything, but yeah, it's kind of like that.
Yeah.
It's, it's, um, yeah, like a convention synthesis music production stuff.

(01:24:04):
Yeah.
I don't know if that's true.
Um,
like Ableton's there.
teenage engineering, like some of the companies that I'm into and some like a lot moreboutique stuff.
uh, yeah, that's interesting.
You know, it's an industry thing.

(01:24:25):
if it was in this country, I might try to go just to meet people and network a little andlearn and stuff.
But in seeing like new stuff, new stuff, new stuff, it does seep into you a little bit andmake you say like, Oh, I wonder if I should have some new stuff too.
Yeah.

(01:24:47):
So this is, this is a weird thing if you want to try is like.
Every time you think about buying something, like create a spreadsheet or have a piece ofpaper or whatever.
And every time you think about buying something for a week, just, just try this, justwrite it down and every single thing, bigger, big or small, and just see like, if you're
not looking at it, et cetera, et cetera, like how much you actually do think you want toneed those things.

(01:25:11):
Cause maybe some of me really do.
And a lot of like, I felt, but a lot of times you're like, wait, like, you know, I get it.
It's cool.
It's because I'm seeing these ads, but do I really want this thing?
You know, was it something I was thinking about before?
uh maybe like a week or two buffer between clicking the button.
too easy to buy.
That's the thing.
The friction is too low.
It's too easy.

(01:25:31):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it can arrive so quickly.
You're like, you could see it and have it so fast that it is.
Yeah, man.
I mean, the gear is, I mean, it's so fun, though.
I mean, I get it.
And you can use it for real things, you know?
So I mean, so I get it.
Yeah, I'm trying to really dig into stuff I already have that I haven't explored as muchbecause there's a ton of it.

(01:25:53):
And, know, with my music production club, we do like this monthly music mission and partof the May monthly music mission was use something you haven't given enough time to.
Maybe it's a plugin, maybe it's samples.
I think that's part of the kind of challenge of this month is to.
Yeah.

(01:26:14):
dig into something that maybe you haven't explored enough.
Yeah, that's really cool.
Yeah, I'm trying to, yeah, man.
I'm trying to do a similar thing where I'm just like, I want to like kind of almost decideon a palette of sounds and just use them until I get really, because it's just like, you
know how it is, like just like scrolling through trying to find like the perfect patch orsomething.

(01:26:38):
And I'm like, when I think about how much.
like people have a sound because they have actually committed to a palette, you know, islike such a powerful thing and they don't spend every time trying to do it.
And I think, especially early on, I suffered from like, all right, well, I've used thesedrums, so can't use these drum samples anymore, you know, where I'm like, I don't know if

(01:26:59):
really, but you know, like ninth wonder, like the producer for like the, all like thelittle brother stuff, like he used the same snare drum and like everything, you know, and
so many, it's just like, so many of these people that we like love and respect as,
As solid like they have their thing, you know what I mean?
I think it from a productivity standpoint, too also just removes like those decisions youhave to make So I do think there is something like how many plugins I have I couldn't even

(01:27:25):
tell you how many I have that I don't use on a regular basis and how I'm like trying tolike just like what are the ones gonna be that'll be like My first go-to thing and if I
really can't make it happen with that thing and I'll use something else, you know That'slike the place I'd like to get to but I'm not there
Yeah, coming from a band background might help me with this a little bit because I don'tknow if you can tell there is a drum set behind me.

(01:27:53):
Those are the drums, you know, like that's the drums we're going to play with in the band.
And that's my guitar amp over here.
And that's, you know, I do have a couple of guitars to choose from, but I'm kind of, youknow, in a zone with the Telecaster right now.
So that's what I'm using.
And when we play, it's like, that's our palette.

(01:28:16):
We don't think about it too much.
And it's funny when we start thinking about it, when we start saying like, you know, like,I like the drums kind of dead.
And when I start getting like, Hey, can we like, maybe like muffle them a little bit?
And then everything slows down, right?
Like now we're not playing and we're wondering if it's okay now.

(01:28:37):
And that's kind of like searching through all your presets.
And there's, you know, how many albums have been made where that's the kit, you know,that's every single song was played on the same drum kit or same guitar.
And it doesn't seem weird on that.
The same piano was used on every song that maybe like Elton John recorded or something.

(01:29:01):
But something about now with the computer and that we have all the access to all thestuff, we feel like I shouldn't use that snare again.
Cause you know, I
I used it in another song.
But funnily enough, if you use it in the same song, it might give your album somecohesion.
It'd be, it's almost like a throwback, like, these are connected and it inhabits the samesonic space as some of the other songs.

(01:29:29):
I've never heard somebody listen to all the Krungman albums and go, you know what, I wishthey would just play a different drum kit.
Or I wish you would play not a strat.
I've never heard anybody say that.
And I do think it is funny.
players have made the whole careers on certain guitars.
Like what do you picture Jimi Hendrix playing?

(01:29:50):
Strat, right?
Yeah.
It's like why everyone got a strat.
yeah, exactly.
I mean, and they sound great, man.
I I love the sounds of them.
But so I mean, yeah, it is.
do think it's like it does connect to what we're talking about before in terms of justlike don't make decisions or don't put yourself in a position to make decisions you don't
really need to make, you know, and like just kind of commit to stuff and a lot can happen.

(01:30:12):
And because of the world that we're in with all this digital stuff, I you can alwayschange it later.
So it's just like.
Yeah man, it's like we invent problems for ourselves sometimes.
No, me never man, never.
But it's hard.

(01:30:33):
I'm glad it's hard for you because that means I'm not weird.
Sorry you have to go through it too.
I don't know man, I think if anybody tells you it's not hard, just, they're either not init or they're just lying.
Without that though, there's no glory.
There's no satisfaction in it, right?
Because I mean, we have the proof of that is like, you could have AI generate music foryou now and you can just be clicking buttons and outputting like crazy.

(01:31:00):
You could be so prolific that way, right?
That's actually a great way to extrapolate that, just productivity.
Yeah, it's like, yeah, you can have a bunch of songs, you know, but.
Yeah, yeah, that could be the answer.
So there's a reason why we go through it.
You know, it's fun, it's exciting, it's an adventure and it does have a little pain everyonce in a while.

(01:31:28):
Yeah, right, yeah, that's applies to exercise, right?
Like if you're not pushing yourself, you're not growing, you're not changing.
I do think it's like that balance is like, what is the right, like rate at which to pushyourself, right?
Because we're like, we're talking about before it's like, you take off, if you take on toomuch at once, or you take on what's beyond whatever your current like ability level is,

(01:31:51):
your threshold is like, you you crumble under that and there's no shame in being whereyou're, where you're at.
And so just like, you can lift what you can lift, you know?
Yeah.
That's what the author of that book, Flow, whose name I would not be able to pronounce.
but that's what he says, you know, it's about, we get into flow when we are challenged,not where it's impossible, but it's not easy either.

(01:32:20):
When it's easy, we get bored.
But when the challenge is sort of just right, where sometimes we succeed and sometimes wedon't, that's...
where we can tap into that feeling and kind of get lost in the work.
Yeah, I love that man.
Tennis and ping pong is the great example for that, right?
You know what it's like to play somebody way better than you or way worse than you?

(01:32:42):
It's not fun.
But when you have somebody who can maybe beat you or you can maybe beat them, that's rightwhere you want to be.
Right on that edge.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah, I think that's actually a great reminder, man.
Yeah, that's really cool about how to find that, what is a really hard thing to quantify,but you can kind of feel when you're in that space where you're on the border of, I don't

(01:33:06):
know if I'm gonna win or lose this game.
That's kind of where you wanna be, I think, if you're trying to expand or grow an abilityor a skill in some way.
Yeah, I heard David Bowie saying, want to be kind of like, like the water's like almost upto here.
And you're like, you know, if it's too easy, you're not challenging yourself artistically.

(01:33:30):
not, you want to kind of be a little bit out to sea.
Yeah, man.
mean, that guy, that's a, it's, I don't know what, how guys like that or what, what wasgoing through their minds to expand.
Cause it's like, that's in a way where I think about like pushing and expanding andgrowing.
think a lot of it in like kind of technical ways, like, know, how can I maybe playsomething with more proficiency or something like that?

(01:33:57):
Or how can I mix something better?
But that idea of like,
expanding artistic expression.
That's like a hard thing to wrap my head around.
And for guys like him, it's like, man, like, you know, him and like David Byrne and guyslike that, you know, it's like, wow, like they did have an idea of like how to push
themselves in that way.

(01:34:18):
That's really interesting and I think harder to teach or translate.
Yeah, I think a lot of it is a lot of output and not really worrying about it too much.
I both of those guys I love and both of them have music I don't ever want to listen to.

(01:34:40):
know, like, I mean, some of it is like I would take on a desert island and some of it Idon't ever need to hear again.
So it wasn't, all of it wasn't at
whatever my particular preference is, or probably the same for them, you know, but theykept pushing, kept trying to find stuff and kept going and not really too concerned, I

(01:35:04):
think sometimes about how it would be received.
And I think of like some of the risks they took, like when you're doing that well, to justtake these wild left turns and just be like, that's what I'm doing.
Yeah, mean, I guess you could say the same thing about miles, right?
It's like a similar kind of thing.
A lot of the greats have that in common, right?

(01:35:26):
And I think, I mean, and that's, and that is a great example, like at the top of all ofthis, which is like those, that is not an efficiency or productivity based mindset.
It's like a curiosity.
What kind of weird place can I find myself in that I've never been to before?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like if the Beatles, like all their output happens so fast, really like 1963 to 1970 islike their whole career and how many crazy directions they went.

(01:35:58):
If they were trying to recreate, like, She Loves You for like two years before they cameout with like a new album instead of doing like three a year, right?
You know, they never would have got to those places.
They just, they were kind of like always chasing new, something different.

(01:36:21):
And yeah, somehow at all.
Yeah, I mean, and I mean, I'm a, as you know, I'm also a big fan.
And yeah, it is wild when you think about those records like lined up next to each otherand how different and individual each of them are over time.
Yeah.
Sometimes not even a year apart, just man.

(01:36:45):
Yeah, those guys, I mean, that's why they are who they are, man.
I that's why we still talk about them.
I mean, it's cool stuff.
I mean, you can put that on any time and it sounds good.
Hmm, yeah, that's if maybe there's a goal for me, would be that kind of thing.
Just try to be as prolific and not worried about it as possible.

(01:37:11):
Yeah, mean, that's the game right there, man.
mean, I think that's kind of, I think what's underneath it, right?
It's like, it's not that you don't have the technology or the artistic or technicalability to do it.
You can.
It does become more about like, how do you create the conditions for yourself to kind offlourish and allow that to happen?

(01:37:33):
Because we don't know where ideas come from.
Let me just see when you started.
was November, October, 2023, right?
And if I'm just like kind of glancing, I notice you don't number every episode, but youmust have over 50 here, right?
Of producer head.

(01:37:54):
because I think, you know, I've been doing because like, I don't, and this is uh a, Right.
Yeah.
Well, no, but also like I was splitting some of the longer ones into two parts.
And so it makes some of the episodes seem like double.
um
hours and hours, lots of material, right?
Like when you first started, bet you this was my experience.

(01:38:18):
was like, my God, I just put out something and I'm talking for like, you know, 20 minutes.
It's like, Oh man, like people are going to hear it.
And it's like, you feel like your entire, you have to like make your grand statement,right?
This is the one thing I put out.
And this is who I'm, this is what I'm gonna be judged by.
This is the image I'm gonna be forged out of.

(01:38:41):
But as I've gotten further and further, there's just like, like I've just polluted theinternet with so much stuff that it's like, you don't know what people are gonna pick up
on it what they're gonna use to identify you that you don't even, you can't even worryabout it.

(01:39:02):
There's nothing to even.
I wonder if you get that feeling of where it's just, I'm just putting stuff out now, justgoing.
I'm off to the races.
take a second to call you out for like the subtle self-deprecation and saying that you'vepolluted the internet.
I think you that's far from what you've done.
the.

(01:39:25):
Yeah, no, no, I totally hear you, oh
I have no idea what's going to come up.
It's not like this one thing or anything.
I don't think I've really ever had anything that's gone viral.
So it's not like this is the identifying thing.
I find that really freeing.
Same thing with music.

(01:39:45):
There's so many...
things out that I've done that you're not going to be able to say, oh, this is like yourthing.
And that's the bonus of like working and working and going is like, there's just so muchto.
I think, mean, I keep bringing it up, but like the Andrew Wong thing, like making your ownrules.

(01:40:08):
just sort of like that idea of like, Hey, like, this is just what I want to do.
You know what mean?
I don't really have like a good reason why it's just like what I want to do.
And so I was just like, if that's really what I want to do, then what do I have to likelose by trying it out?
Right.
Cause I can always quit.
Like that's easy.
Right.
If it's not going well, or I don't like doing it, I can, I can quit, but it's been, evenif nobody listens to the conversations like we're talking about, I'm like, I learned

(01:40:34):
something.
something.
I now have another person that I can talk to randomly about music.
That's cool.
So even if nobody listens to it, like I still kind of think about it.
It's like I'm creating this library of stuff that's like legitimately useful to me, youknow?
And I think that at the end of the day, if it were to exist like privately in my house,like that's how I would think of like my sub stack.

(01:40:56):
It's like, this is my private library of stuff that I've like taken the time to like writequestions about, ask for thoughtful answers from people.
and write down the parts of it that are interesting and worth revisiting to me.
So the fact that it's public and people can interact with it, know, definitely changes thegame.
And I don't think you can decide, like we were saying before, it's like, I don't think youcan decide to be Mr.

(01:41:19):
Beast.
I don't think you can decide to be somebody that has X, whatever the platform is,subscribers, followers, whatever.
You just get to choose whether or not like you do something and whether it's useful liketo yourself or not.
then, you you hope that in doing it in earnest, like the rest of it kind of takes care ofitself.
You know I mean?
It's like, it sounds really corny, but I just like, I've spent a lot of time thinkingabout it, you know, and I, and I will continue to, but I come up with roughly the same

(01:41:48):
answer, answer, which is I cannot control whether or not this is going to be successful.
Yeah, you can't.
It's part of the thrill too.
I know, yeah, I mean, think that's the thing.
like that is like, you're just, when you sit down in the studio, like the days where youcome up with a good idea that ends up being a song that you release.

(01:42:12):
You didn't necessarily know that day it was gonna happen, you know?
But like you walk out and you're like, oh shit, like that was an idea.
You you need the space, because like sometimes you come back the next day and you're like,who made this?
Like I don't ever wanna hear this again, you know?
But some days you walk out and the next day you come back in, you re-listen to it andyou're like, like there's something here, you know?
And those are...

(01:42:34):
not things I can predict on a daily basis, but based on the quality with which I'mmaintaining the other kind of routines.
We've talked about exercise and sleep and writing and the other relationships in my lifeand everything like that.
All of that contributes to me having, it increases the probability that I'm gonna have asession where I'm gonna produce something that's interesting.

(01:42:59):
Whether it's good, I don't know.
And in a way, it's like, who cares?
It's like not your job to decide if it's good.
that part too, man.
I do think it's like we our responsibility to stop at the making and the releasing, youknow, and like in terms of it because you can't control the opinions of people, man, you

(01:43:21):
know.
Yeah, I like that idea of like, it's not up to me.
Like, it's not my job.
Like, I've heard a lot of, I think I've heard like Bowie say that and a lot of people thatare just prolific like that and have done interesting things and also received like some

(01:43:44):
harsh criticisms too.
It's like, well, I just make it, you know.
Exactly like and that's the thing is like trying to get up caught up in that is like whatcan you do?
mean, that's the thing is like a question you can ask yourself is what can you do?
To make the reception of your music more positive to people

(01:44:10):
mean, it's a lot of factors, right?
Like even when I listen to music, there's stuff that I love that maybe the first time Iheard it, I didn't love because maybe it was like a more relaxed bedtime type of feel and
I wanted to go out and have fun and get psyched or vice versa, right?
Like I heard it at a time when I was looking for something like fast pace, cause I'm likegonna do something exciting and it didn't catch me at that moment.

(01:44:40):
Aside from just whether or not I would like it or not, also depends what mood I'm in, whatmy energy level is.
Yeah.
And what control do we have over that for listeners as artists?
know, it's like.
I mean, that's, know, like what what do the artists what are they able to do to us?
It's like, you know, we pick up some stuff because it gets recommended or a friend sendsit to you.

(01:45:04):
You know, and sometimes, and we've all had that experience, like you just said, first timeyou heard it, didn't like it.
Sometimes like it's just not the right time, you know?
And that's an interesting experience with music.
know, it's like you're like albums that I didn't like before are now albums I love forsome reason, you know?
Just wasn't the right time, Can't control that.

(01:45:26):
weird mysterious art world everything
Well, listen, this has been a lot of fun and I appreciate your generosity with your timeand love what you're doing.
think it's great that you're going out there, sharing your thoughts, digging in with otherartists and getting them to share their thoughts.

(01:45:53):
It's really valuable stuff.
Even if, even when it's stuff you've heard before, like we said, it's important to hear itagain.
Sometimes people just say it in a different way.
That's like, oh, I never thought of it that way.
You've done a great job drawing a lot of this stuff out of your guests.
And I'm just glad you're doing Producer Head.

(01:46:17):
Thanks so much man, I really appreciate it.
Thank you again for your time and yeah man, anything I can do to help, let me know I'mhere.
Appreciate it, this was a lot of fun.
Cool.
So we can send people to producerhead.substack.com.
That's the best way, right?
Yeah, that's where I host the podcast and that's where like all the extra writing andstuff kind of happens around that.

(01:46:38):
Yeah, and it's on all the podcast platforms, you so if you're on Apple or Spotify, you'llfind it there, Producer Head.
Anywhere else?
know you got, your Instagram's fun, you're always playing and, you know, living the life,playing some guitar, enjoying your guitar playing and...

(01:46:58):
to get back.
definitely took a long break from the content thing because we didn't even get into that.
yeah, like as you know, like that can be a different kind of conveyor belt to be on.
But yeah, I'm trying to be back on there.
So on socials um at ToruBeat.
And yeah, man, those are the two best places for sure.
Sure.
You always start the podcast.

(01:47:21):
This is Turo, and in a way, so are you.
Yeah, mean, it comes from a...
It's funny, I very rarely get asked that, which in a way kind of surprises me, but uhbasically it's the idea of like, know, Toru is, you that was like the musical identity
that like I created to release all the music that I do.

(01:47:42):
And I think when I started doing music, it was purely about a music thing for me.
And then it didn't take long before I was just sort of like...
the music just happens to be like my, like the form of like the broader thing, which islike, just do that thing that's like inside of you.
Like whatever your version of Toru is, whatever, maybe it's not music, maybe it's film,maybe it's writing, maybe it's something athletic.

(01:48:08):
To just, to give that space and to put that out there for other people.
And that's really what I hope, what I do is, is like more of an example of like, Hey, likeI hope more people
Hmm.
That's cool.

(01:48:29):
Yeah.
I took, I've always took it as like this sort of interconnection of us, you know, we, wefeel so separate, you know, where I'm in my own body and my own enclosure, but sometimes
you get these feelings of like, I'm just like part of the earth and, know, I'm a particlein this giant organism.

(01:48:51):
I definitely do like some of that is a big part of it for sure.
It comes from that kind of place.
mean, I guess like if I were to just like somebody who said it all way better, you know,like go read Alan Watts, right?
Like that's just a guy who, and I think that there's a lot of really interesting ideasthat he's expressed that I don't think like he obviously is very well known, but I'm
surprised at how little he's talked about in more mainstream spheres really, because Idon't, I think he's done such a good job.

(01:49:16):
He did such a good job of making them very accessible using very simple language and,really
interesting analogies to convey really, really like, I mean, kind of impossible to captureideas.
So anyway, yeah, it does kind of come from that kind of place.
I do very much feel that kind of way.
And I do think that we get to provide those kinds of examples through what we do for otherpeople.

(01:49:40):
Cool.
Well, if you think about it, the way you're spreading your ideas and the way those ideasget into people and then they use that to make their creation in a way, they are also
toru.
Yeah, it's really nice of to say that, man.
And same to you, man.
I mean, you you're doing your version of it.
So it's really cool to be a part of what you're doing also.
So thank you.

(01:50:01):
I always liked when people had like that kind of like a catchphrase, you uh
Like everyone, like so many big people, Bob Ross, Mr.
Rogers, like, and a lot of like YouTubers I follow will say certain phrases that like,you're kind of like, yes, you know, there it is.

(01:50:22):
catch, like almost like you ever see like um old like sitcoms where like the characterwould have the catchphrase they say every episode.
Everyone's like, yeah, like different strokes.
Like Arnold would be like, who'd you talk about, Willis?
And people are like, yeah.
yeah, South Park has theirs, right?
Yeah, it's like, yeah, full house, yeah, they all have.

(01:50:46):
Dude, it's, yeah, it's funny.
I mean, it's, I felt so, because it's one of those things that really early on I just kindof stumbled on and it's mostly just because of the way it's spelled and everything, but.
I like forced myself to say it because I felt really goofy.
still sometimes do, but now I'm pretty much like, feel comfortable.
I've like done it enough times, but the first few times, like I really like forced thatout.

(01:51:07):
was like this, like, cause I was like, it was one of those things where I had fear aroundit, right?
I was like, this is really how I feel.
And I want people to know that.
But I also, it feels like corny or exposed or I don't want to do it because it, you knowwhat I mean?
It can sound, what if people think I'm just being gimmicky or whatever, you know what Imean?
But so I,
It was one of those things I made a conscious effort to like force myself to say out loudto people.

(01:51:32):
Yeah.
Yeah, man.
I appreciate you bringing it up.
Yeah, that's unexpected.
Well, Julian, thanks so much and thank you to anyone listening.
I made it this far.
I really appreciate it.
I know we said like it's its own reward doing this, but it's so much more special to thatanyone would want to listen to it and enjoy it.

(01:51:54):
So thank you so much for being a listener.
Alrighty.
Yeah.

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Toru - Host of the ProducerHead Podcast

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Toru - Host of the ProducerHead Podcast