October 9, 2024 • 23 mins
Historian David Olusoga tells the story of the children born to white British mothers and black American servicemen during the Second World War, dubbed Britain’s ‘Brown Babies’ in the African American press at the time.
Carol and Ann, now in their 80s, revisit their childhood home, Holnicote House in Somerset. During the 1940s, the building was used for the care of around 30 children of black GIs, from birth to the age of five.
Carol and Ann were among some 2000 children born in wartime Britain to black GI fathers and white British mothers. Under many pressures including social prejudice and US legislation banning interracial marriage, around half of these children were placed into care.
David also meets experts Prof Lucy Bland and Dr Chamion Caballero, to reveal this little-known history of the Second World War, and how modern DNA testing is helping families search for lost relatives 80 years later.
You can watch a video of this podcast on National Trust YouTube: ntpodcasts.org/NTP143Video
Production
Host: David Olusoga
Producer: Michelle Douglass
Sound editor: Jesus Gomez
Consultants: Lucy Bland, Professor of Social and Cultural History at Anglia Ruskin University, and Dr Chamion Caballero, Director and Co-Founder of The Mixed Museum
Discover more
Find out more about Britain’s ‘Brown Babies’ and hear oral histories, including more from Ann:
https://mixedmuseum.org.uk/brown-babies/
Explore the experiences of WWII black GIs in the UK:
https://mixedmuseum.org.uk/brown-babies/black-gis-in-britain/
https://mixedmuseum.org.uk/brown-babies/black-gis-in-britain/
Read Britain’s ‘Brown Babies’ by Professor Lucy Bland:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Britains-%60Brown-Babies-Stories-Children/dp/1526133261
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Britains-%60Brown-Babies-Stories-Children/dp/1526133261
Discover the Holnicote Estate’s diverse countryside, wildlife and walkways, looked after by the National Trust
https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/visit/somerset/countryside-woodland/explore-holnicote-estate
https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/visit/somerset/countryside-woodland/explore-holnicote-estate
Visit the Holnicote House hotel website:
https://www.hfholidays.co.uk/country-houses/locations/selworthy-exmoor
If you'd like to get in touch with feedback, or have a story connected with the National Trust, you can contact us at podcasts@nationaltrust.org.uk
https://www.hfholidays.co.uk/country-houses/locations/selworthy-exmoor
If you'd like to get in touch with feedback, or have a story connected with the National Trust, you can contact us at podcasts@nationaltrust.org.uk
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
DAVID OLUSOGA (00:08):
Hello, and welcome to The National Trust
Podcast. I'm David Olusoga, ahistorian and broadcaster. Some
of our most fascinating storiesare unmarked in the landscape.
One such secret story can befound in an unassuming building
which lies nestled in ExmoorNational Park. Today, Holnicote
(00:28):
House is a hotel, but during theSecond World War, it was used as
a home for children,
Children who had been born towhite British mothers and black
American GI fathers. Childrenwho had been given up and placed
into care.
Today, we'll be unearthing thestory of Britain's
so-called'Brown Babies' andrevealing a forgotten part of
(00:52):
our history that is stillaffecting families today.
ANN (01:00):
Mam and dad came here, the couple that adopted me, they
came. Now they saw me in thatphotograph in the newspaper, and
they picked out which child theywanted. My mother wanted, she
was desperate for a girl.
And then they asked me would Ilike to go with them, and I said
to the lady, I like you, yes,yes, I like you. And the matron
(01:21):
took me upstairs and explained,now this lady and gentleman were
going to give me a home. And myconcern was... What about the
ones here? Where are they going?No, you're going on your own and
you'll be fine.
DAVID OLUSOGA (01:38):
And you still feel, both of you, all these
decades later, a sense of cominghome.
ANN (01:44):
Absolutely.
CAROL (01:47):
Now I belong here. This is my home.
DAVID OLUSOGA (01:51):
The Holnicote Estate is best known as a
walker's paradise with over12,000 acres of patchwork
landscape and walkways, alllooked after by the National
Trust. It includes a woodednature reserve, high rugged
moorlands and quintessentiallyEnglish hamlets, as well as
(02:11):
miles of sandy and shinglecoastline.
Nestling in this stunninglandscape is Holnicote House
Hotel. Walking past, you wouldhave no clue about the hidden
history of this hotel. There areno signs or exhibitions to hint
at this story. But during theSecond World War, Holnicote
(02:33):
House played a unique role. Itserved as a children's home for
children born to black GIs andwhite British mothers.
We're here inside HolnicoteHouse, and I'm here with Lucy
Bland, the author of a bookcalled Britain's'Brown Babies',
(02:55):
that, through interviews, tellsthis rather forgotten story.
LUCY BLAND (02:59):
That's right. So the term'Brown Babies' might seem a
strange one, but this was theterm given by the African
American press to the childrenborn to black GIs, and initially
British women, but then duringthe years of occupation in
Germany and Austria, to thosechildren as well.
DAVID OLUSOGA (03:18):
This story of the'Brown Babies' in Britain is
part of a bigger history of whathappened socially when America
enters the war in 1941.
LUCY BLAND (03:26):
So they start arriving in 1942. We're not sure
quite the numbers of black GIs,but passing through those three
years to the end of the war,probably at least 240,000.
Significant numbers. And this isdespite various directives from
the government that they reallydidn't want these
(03:46):
interrelationships. Didn't wantactually to have black GIs.
DAVID OLUSOGA (03:49):
Because the American army was able to
segregate its bases. It was ableto run a segregated army, but
they couldn't impose that sortof segregation on the people of
Britain. And so you do have thismoment when British populations
suddenly encounter very largenumbers of African Americans,
which, for the most part, isvery positive.
LUCY BLAND (04:09):
And they inevitably started to meet local women.
It's thought to be a step toofar. I'll accept them as my
brothers, but not mybrothers-in-law.
DAVID OLUSOGA (04:20):
Millions of women have been separated from their
boyfriends, from their husbands,on an island in which millions
of men from all over the world,with money, with dashing
uniforms, suddenly arrive withpeople having very little money,
the threat of losing partners inthe war and living for now.
LUCY BLAND (04:38):
The women who went on and had children with black
GIs were treated often very,very badly. Often they're quite
young, they're living at home.Their families often reject them
and certainly say, get rid ofthis child. They're sent to
mother and baby homes.
There they're really pressurisedto give the child up. And if
they were married and the mancomes back, he might pressurise
(05:00):
her to give up the child. So itwas incredibly hard, but I think
just over half of the mothers,or possibly the grandmothers,
did keep the child, despite allthis.
DAVID OLUSOGA (05:11):
Ideas around relationships and marriage and
sex, under the incrediblepressures of the Second World
War, broke down in all sorts ofways. So it is not anything
exceptional that people hadaffairs with black GIs. And so
adding race into that just meantthat the children who were the
product of those relationshipswere visible.
LUCY BLAND (05:32):
That's right. I mean, there was a stigma of
illegitimacy, but then thestigma of being mixed race on
top of that was a huge stigmafor them.
DAVID OLUSOGA (05:41):
This place, Holnicote House, it's part of a
whole infrastructure that'sthere to facilitate these
children being taken from theirmothers.
LUCY BLAND (05:50):
Yeah, I think that's right. And there were various
charities that obviously wantedto so-called help these
children. So Honeycutt House isthis absolutely beautiful House
in Somerset. And. It was underthe ownership of the Acklands.
And in 1942-43, it wasrequisitioned by Somerset County
(06:11):
Council for evacuees. And sothen they start filling it with
children who are being bornlocally to black GIs. Since
then, it's been a hotel forwalking holidays. So it's kept
going as this wonderful place tobe.
DAVID OLUSOGA (06:30):
I'm here with Anne Evans and Carol Edwards,
childhood friends, to revisittheir story here at Holnicote
House. And to shine a light on ahidden part of British history.
Carol, you look very emotional.
CAROL (06:46):
Yes, I do. I've felt a lot of emotion coming back to my
beginnings.
DAVID OLUSOGA (06:53):
To your beginnings?
CAROL (06:55):
It's my third visit to the place in what?
70 odd years and it just bringsback so many happy memories
DAVID OLUSOGA (07:05):
And where you two met a long time ago. And this
room in particular this is thelounge now the house is a hotel.
This was a place that youplayed?
ANN (07:14):
This is the playroom yes. And we had the doll and the crib
and the other toys. It wouldn'tbe just us two maybe someone
else would join in because allthe toys there belonged to
everyone
CAROL (07:27):
Yeah nothing was mine all yours it was ours.
DAVID OLUSOGA (07:32):
Seven decades later you both feel that you
were you were shaped by yourvery early years
CAROL (07:38):
Absolutely
DAVID OLUSOGA (07:40):
And how old were you when you arrived Ann?
ANN (07:43):
I was three days old when I got you and I was four and
eleven months when I went fromhere.
DAVID OLUSOGA (07:52):
And how about you, Carol?
CAROL (07:53):
I arrived here when I was about two and a half weeks and I
left probably about the sametime as that. I think we all
left almost all together, didn'twe? You're five, yeah. Yeah.
ANN (08:05):
You moved on to a different place when you came to five, but
I was adopted, so...
DAVID OLUSOGA (08:10):
How about you, Carol?
CAROL (08:11):
I went from here to Wellington.
DAVID OLUSOGA (08:14):
Which was another children's home.
CAROL (08:16):
Yeah, yeah.
DAVID OLUSOGA (08:16):
Again at Somerset?
CAROL (08:17):
Yeah, and I was there until I was about 12. Yeah, I
liked it a lot. I was happythere.
But there's no place like home.
DAVID OLUSOGA (08:28):
You describe the children here as a happy bunch.
CAROL (08:31):
We were happy.
DAVID OLUSOGA (08:32):
Here's a photograph. I think it's a
testimony to that. When I lookat this picture, I see children
who look really close. You'reall touching each other. You're
hugging each other. There'shands on shoulders. Can you tell
me?
CAROL (08:46):
That's Leon, my boyfriend. I was going to marry
him at that age, I tell you.
DAVID OLUSOGA (08:49):
And where were you, Carol?
CAROL (08:51):
That one. That's me. That's Deborah.
DAVID OLUSOGA (08:55):
Where were you at?
ANN (08:57):
In the front.
DAVID OLUSOGA (08:57):
There you are.
CAROL (08:58):
She's always in the front.
ANN (09:00):
About three, I think, when I was taken.
DAVID OLUSOGA (09:03):
I thought that was you when I saw this picture.
The gang.
CAROL (09:07):
Yeah.
DAVID OLUSOGA (09:09):
And the nurses, I mean, these are nursery nurses.
Yeah, nursery nurses. I mean,they were probably teenagers.
CHAMION CABALLERO (09:12):
They were 17 and 18, that's all they were.
But no, they were lovely.
DAVID OLUSOGA (09:17):
Do you think you were insulated from the racism
of Britain in the 40s and 50s bybeing here with these very kind
young nurses.
ANN (09:24):
Yes, I think we were.
DAVID OLUSOGA (09:26):
And it does explain this happy little gang
of kids on the lawn 70 yearsago.
CAROL (09:31):
Yeah. Yeah, we were happy, we were healthy and we
were loved.
DAVID OLUSOGA (09:37):
Should we have a look at some other rooms where
you might have other memories?
ANN (09:40):
Yes, yes, by all means. Do you want to go to the potty
room, Carol?
CAROL (09:44):
I want to see the potty room.
DAVID OLUSOGA (09:46):
You lead the way.
ANN (09:50):
No it wasn't in there... it isn't that one
CAROL (09:59):
We've lost the potty room
See, I can remember all thesebrown doors.
DAVID OLUSOGA (10:11):
Shall we try down here?
Do you remember these tiles,this pattern?
ANN (10:18):
I would think this is more or less where it was.
DAVID OLUSOGA (10:22):
And this was the potty room is that right?
ANN (10:23):
And that was it, yeah. And you'd take the pots out of
there, and we'd all line upthere.
CAROL (10:29):
Yeah.
ANN (10:30):
Bums on each pot. Yeah. And Leon then would be the leader.
We're going to play trains.
DAVID OLUSOGA (10:38):
Should we go and look at some other rooms and see
if they bring up other memories?
CAROL (10:42):
Yes. Okay.
Ah, yes. Here we go.
DAVID OLUSOGA (10:49):
So what was this room?
CAROL (10:51):
Piano room.
DAVID OLUSOGA (10:52):
Piano room. Hence the piano.
CAROL (10:56):
Let's give it a little tinkle. Look at the state of
these keys. Yes. Do you rememberthat one? Do you know why that's
white? It's been replacedbecause that's the one you broke
your teeth on.
DAVID OLUSOGA (11:09):
This key in the piano?
CAROL (11:10):
It had to be replaced because you used to chew them.
ANN (11:13):
Yeah, I was chewing them, yeah.
DAVID OLUSOGA (11:16):
And this is a big room.
CAROL (11:17):
It's lovely.
DAVID OLUSOGA (11:19):
I can imagine all the children in that photograph.
All of you running around.
CAROL (11:22):
And the noise bouncing off the walls.
ANN (11:25):
And one of the nurses would play the piano for us all to
sing Christmas carols.
DAVID OLUSOGA (11:30):
So your first Christmas is...
ANN (11:31):
Was spent here, yeah.
DAVID OLUSOGA (11:34):
And out there, it's a view into the front
garden.
So this is now out in thegarden. It is absolutely
beautiful.
CAROL (11:46):
Yeah. Same old trees.
DAVID OLUSOGA (11:49):
A lot bigger.
CAROL (11:50):
A lot bigger, yeah.
DAVID OLUSOGA (11:51):
Shall we head down?
CAROL (11:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Living here, it was like everyday was a summer's day, wasn't
it Ann? We'd get up, getdressed, wash, have our
breakfast, to the potty room,outside, until the sun went
down.
ANN (12:10):
Go for a walk then
CAROL (12:10):
Go for a walk, lots of walks, didn't we?
That's why I'm so short.
DAVID OLUSOGA (12:17):
So you were taken out of here on walks in the
countryside?
ANN (12:20):
Yeah, all over the place.
CAROL (12:22):
Walked almost every day, didn't we?
DAVID OLUSOGA (12:25):
And so the reasons why you were brought
here were to do with racialattitudes in society, but for
the years you were here this wasa sanctuary from those
attitudes.
CAROL (12:34):
Absolutely.
ANN (12:35):
When I was in South Wales I was told on a regular basis to
get back where I belonged, asthey didn't want me in
Cwmtillery, and I kept sayingI'm not going anywhere, I live
here.
DAVID OLUSOGA (12:49):
And up until that point, because you'd been here
at Holnicote, you'd notexperienced this?
ANN (12:52):
No, never. Didn't even know what they were on about. I'd got
into the family well. I had fourolder brothers and I acquired a
grandmother and a grandfatherwho were lovely. They were
lovely people. And mygrandmother, I got very close to
my grandmother. And she wouldrow with anyone who had a mind
(13:15):
to say anything to me. She'd rowwith them.
DAVID OLUSOGA (13:18):
You mean anything racist?
ANN (13:19):
Yeah.
CAROL (13:19):
Unlike Anne and some of the other children, I didn't get
any sort of racial abuse. I wasabout maybe 15, 16. That's when
I realised I was different. Andthe only reason I came to that
conclusion was through music.
I thought, right, I'm going tosave up and get a record player.
(13:40):
Meanwhile, I buy some records.The first one I got was Shirley
Bassey. Still got it to thisday. It's called In the Still Of
The Night. It cost me 19shillings and 11 pence, which is
a penny short of a pound intoday's money. Still got it,
still play it.
SPK_5 (13:54):
And I can remember hearing Shirley Bassey. I
thought, wow, what a voice. Andthen I got into Sarah Vaughan
and Billy Eckstein and EllaFitzgerald. And I looked at the
covers and I thought, hang on aminute. Because they were all
black. And I'm thinking, theylook like me. And from that day
on, I've been black and proud.
DAVID OLUSOGA (14:22):
As you moved on through life, what did it make
you think about your ownchildhood and how you'd been
brought up?
ANN (14:28):
When I decided to look for my biological mother, I went
around to my four brothers topass it with them, because as
long as mam and dad were stillalive, I wouldn't have looked.
DAVID OLUSOGA (14:41):
And where did that search take you?
ANN (14:42):
Well, it took me to find my mother, eventually, who really
didn't want to know anyway. Itwas just a mistake. I had too
much to drink. And I said, well,look, all I want from you is the
name of my father. And she gaveme that, and I said, and from
then on, I shan't bother youanymore. I got too much to lose.
CAROL (15:04):
My father was always in touch with me through his niece.
At one point, he tried to getcustody of me, going through the
local authorities. And at thatpoint, I was still at school. I
was about 14, 15. And theauthorities saying that Carol's
happy where she is. Because hewanted me to go out there.
DAVID OLUSOGA (15:26):
To the United States.
CAROL (15:28):
To live, yeah. And they said, no, it wouldn't be... It
wouldn't be fair to me to sendme off to a different country,
into a different family wherepeople are a lot blacker than
me. So, no, he gave up in theend.
DAVID OLUSOGA (15:40):
Even though your father was trying to reunite
with you, the authorities got inthe way and felt that way.
CAROL (15:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I don't think I would have
gone anyway, David. No
DAVID OLUSOGA (15:50):
I just wanted to ask you about what happened
after you became adults and wenton to have families of your own.
ANN (15:58):
When I was very young when I met my husband, I was 15 and
we'd only been going out about12 months I think and he said,
I'm going to marry you. He waswhite. And I said, I don't think
your mother likes me. Don'tmatter what she likes, he said,
I'm going to marry you. Andthree years later we got married
(16:21):
and we lasted for 60, nearly 61years which he passed six weeks
ago. And we had four children,two boys and two girls.
My children experienced a bit ofracism, but of course I tried to
explain to them I may have beenoverprotective, which, you know,
(16:41):
as far as some people wereconcerned, but as far as I was
concerned, that was my duty as amother. I was to protect my
children.
DAVID OLUSOGA (16:49):
Do you think there's anything that you guys
had, because you're such aclose-knit group of children,
that is kind of special, sort ofalmost, that other children
don't have?
ANN (17:00):
But I think and that's why. Because it was so special. It
doesn't matter how old we are,we've still got that connection.
DAVID OLUSOGA (17:07):
And it must be special to look at that
photograph of that little groupof children.
ANN (17:11):
Well, it'll always remain special, I think.
SPK_5 (17:13):
Just to say there wasn't more children in that photo.
It's just a handful, isn't it? Icounted the number of heads I
saw in this Christmas photo andI counted at least 30 heads.
There might have been a fewmore, I don't know.
ANN (17:27):
And I still try and keep in contact with Carol and Deborah
and now we have found anothertwo children that was in the
home with us and in contact withthem all. And I hope I'm able to
keep that up until we all dropoff our perch one by one.
DAVID OLUSOGA (17:48):
I've just left Anne and Carol and I've come to
find out more about the modernlegacy of this history with
Chamion Caballero. Hi there
CHAMION CABALLERO (17:56):
Hi David.
DAVID OLUSOGA (17:57):
So this is a history that for all sorts of
reasons was brushed under thecarpet. But that's been
changing, and it's been changingeven faster because of modern
technology.
CHAMION CABALLERO (18:08):
That's right. I'm the director of The Mixed
Museum. We're an online museumand archive sharing and
preserving the history of racialmixing in Britain. And one of
the questions we get asked themost often is, can you help me
find my black GI relatives? Weusually pass those inquiries on
to a wonderful organisationcalled GI Trace and they help
(18:32):
the children of GIs find theirfamilies using DNA testing.
What is possible now is throughthe science of DNA testing,
answers can be found that weremuch more difficult to find
before. When we receiveinquiries, some of those come
from what we call theoriginal'Brown Babies', but
(18:53):
increasingly we're gettinginquiries from their children
and their grandchildren.
DAVID OLUSOGA (18:58):
Those journeys to find lost fathers in this case,
irrespective of whetherit's'Brown Babies' in the 1940s
or any other form of familyseparation, they can be very
challenging and the outcomes arenot always what people want. How
do you manage those realities?
CHAMION CABALLERO (19:16):
What we're finding is really helpful is the
connecting of the people whohave gone through this process
to share their stories with eachother.
DAVID OLUSOGA (19:24):
With one another.
CHAMION CABALLERO (19:24):
That's right.
DAVID OLUSOGA (19:25):
So even if it doesn't work out, even if the
trace leads to a dead end orsomeone who doesn't want to
speak, you've at least joined acommunity.
CHAMION CABALLERO (19:32):
Absolutely. Before we could get to talking
about the science of DNAtesting, we actually had to let
people tell their stories. Wereally had to let people tell
their stories because so manypeople grew up isolated, not
meeting anybody else who lookedlike them. And so finding that
they felt themselves outsiders.Even where they knew that they
(19:56):
had black heritage, thatheritage wasn't connected to the
post-Windrush migration.
So people would assume thatpeople were of African Caribbean
descent, of African descent, butactually their heritage is
African American, very differenthistory, particularly the
legislation against interracialmarriage. So our current
(20:21):
project, we currently have agroup of around 30'Brown Babies'
families members who have cometogether to explore the role of
DNA testing in their lives.
DAVID OLUSOGA (20:32):
It is remarkable, isn't it, that eight decades
after the end of the war, thatthere are still people
contacting organisations likeyours saying, I think, I think I
might be descended from a blackGI.
CHAMION CABALLERO (20:44):
Yes. One person told me that she's in her
80s and people have said to her,you haven't found your dad.
You've had a happy life. Does itmatter? And she said, it
matters. It will always matter.And I won't stop searching until
the end.
DAVID OLUSOGA (21:03):
And it's a search for knowledge.
CHAMION CABALLERO (21:04):
It's a search for knowledge.
DAVID OLUSOGA (21:05):
And identity.
CHAMION CABALLERO (21:06):
And identity, very much so, of who you are.
It's been really importantactually that the children and
grandchildren of the'BrownBabies' have started to become
involved in this process. Theyare giving their mothers and
fathers the confidence to speakout about subjects that have
previously been shrouded insecrecy and shame. They're
(21:30):
telling them that it's okay totalk about this. In fact, it's
really important to talk aboutthis. And by talking about it,
you open up this history and youhelp preserve it for other
people.
DAVID OLUSOGA (21:46):
So we are out in the garden, sat at a table in
front of Holnicote House, Anneand Carol. You still feel, both
of you, all these decades later,a sense of coming home?
CAROL (21:59):
Absolutely.
DAVID OLUSOGA (22:02):
You're here to keep alive the memory of a
strange and remarkable chapterin the long history of this
house. And when you walk aroundon this lawn and you walk
between those rooms...
CAROL (22:14):
I can hear children laughing. And do you know what?
I can never ever rememberchildren crying. Can you?
ANN (22:19):
No, no.
CAROL (22:21):
Except when you hit them. Do you remember when you used to
hit them? They used to cry then,didn't they?
ANN (22:25):
It was her it was, and she's blaming me.
DAVID OLUSOGA (22:31):
I think it's an untold chapter to this story
about Ann's naughtiness.
Thank you for listening to thisepisode of the National Trust
Podcast. If you'd like todiscover more about the story of
(22:53):
Britain's'Brown Babies' andexplore more first-hand
interviews, you could start withLucy Bland's book,
Britain's'Brown Babies', or headto The Mixed Museum at
mixedmuseum.org.uk.
If this podcast has resonatedwith you and you'd like to
explore your family'sconnections to the GIs of the
(23:13):
Second World War, you canconnect with our experts and
explore The Mixed Museum and GITrace. And you can keep up with
all episodes of the NationalTrust Podcast by following us on
your favourite podcast app.That's all from me, David
Olusoga. Goodbye.
Hello, and welcome to The National Trust
Podcast. I'm David Olusoga, ahistorian and broadcaster. Some
of our most fascinating storiesare unmarked in the landscape.
One such secret story can befound in an unassuming building
which lies nestled in ExmoorNational Park. Today, Holnicote
(00:28):
House is a hotel, but during theSecond World War, it was used as
a home for children,
Children who had been born towhite British mothers and black
American GI fathers. Childrenwho had been given up and placed
into care.
Today, we'll be unearthing thestory of Britain's
so-called'Brown Babies' andrevealing a forgotten part of
(00:52):
our history that is stillaffecting families today.
ANN (01:00):
Mam and dad came here, the couple that adopted me, they
came. Now they saw me in thatphotograph in the newspaper, and
they picked out which child theywanted. My mother wanted, she
was desperate for a girl.
And then they asked me would Ilike to go with them, and I said
to the lady, I like you, yes,yes, I like you. And the matron
(01:21):
took me upstairs and explained,now this lady and gentleman were
going to give me a home. And myconcern was... What about the
ones here? Where are they going?No, you're going on your own and
you'll be fine.
DAVID OLUSOGA (01:38):
And you still feel, both of you, all these
decades later, a sense of cominghome.
ANN (01:44):
Absolutely.
CAROL (01:47):
Now I belong here. This is my home.
DAVID OLUSOGA (01:51):
The Holnicote Estate is best known as a
walker's paradise with over12,000 acres of patchwork
landscape and walkways, alllooked after by the National
Trust. It includes a woodednature reserve, high rugged
moorlands and quintessentiallyEnglish hamlets, as well as
(02:11):
miles of sandy and shinglecoastline.
Nestling in this stunninglandscape is Holnicote House
Hotel. Walking past, you wouldhave no clue about the hidden
history of this hotel. There areno signs or exhibitions to hint
at this story. But during theSecond World War, Holnicote
(02:33):
House played a unique role. Itserved as a children's home for
children born to black GIs andwhite British mothers.
We're here inside HolnicoteHouse, and I'm here with Lucy
Bland, the author of a bookcalled Britain's'Brown Babies',
(02:55):
that, through interviews, tellsthis rather forgotten story.
LUCY BLAND (02:59):
That's right. So the term'Brown Babies' might seem a
strange one, but this was theterm given by the African
American press to the childrenborn to black GIs, and initially
British women, but then duringthe years of occupation in
Germany and Austria, to thosechildren as well.
DAVID OLUSOGA (03:18):
This story of the'Brown Babies' in Britain is
part of a bigger history of whathappened socially when America
enters the war in 1941.
LUCY BLAND (03:26):
So they start arriving in 1942. We're not sure
quite the numbers of black GIs,but passing through those three
years to the end of the war,probably at least 240,000.
Significant numbers. And this isdespite various directives from
the government that they reallydidn't want these
(03:46):
interrelationships. Didn't wantactually to have black GIs.
DAVID OLUSOGA (03:49):
Because the American army was able to
segregate its bases. It was ableto run a segregated army, but
they couldn't impose that sortof segregation on the people of
Britain. And so you do have thismoment when British populations
suddenly encounter very largenumbers of African Americans,
which, for the most part, isvery positive.
LUCY BLAND (04:09):
And they inevitably started to meet local women.
It's thought to be a step toofar. I'll accept them as my
brothers, but not mybrothers-in-law.
DAVID OLUSOGA (04:20):
Millions of women have been separated from their
boyfriends, from their husbands,on an island in which millions
of men from all over the world,with money, with dashing
uniforms, suddenly arrive withpeople having very little money,
the threat of losing partners inthe war and living for now.
LUCY BLAND (04:38):
The women who went on and had children with black
GIs were treated often very,very badly. Often they're quite
young, they're living at home.Their families often reject them
and certainly say, get rid ofthis child. They're sent to
mother and baby homes.
There they're really pressurisedto give the child up. And if
they were married and the mancomes back, he might pressurise
(05:00):
her to give up the child. So itwas incredibly hard, but I think
just over half of the mothers,or possibly the grandmothers,
did keep the child, despite allthis.
DAVID OLUSOGA (05:11):
Ideas around relationships and marriage and
sex, under the incrediblepressures of the Second World
War, broke down in all sorts ofways. So it is not anything
exceptional that people hadaffairs with black GIs. And so
adding race into that just meantthat the children who were the
product of those relationshipswere visible.
LUCY BLAND (05:32):
That's right. I mean, there was a stigma of
illegitimacy, but then thestigma of being mixed race on
top of that was a huge stigmafor them.
DAVID OLUSOGA (05:41):
This place, Holnicote House, it's part of a
whole infrastructure that'sthere to facilitate these
children being taken from theirmothers.
LUCY BLAND (05:50):
Yeah, I think that's right. And there were various
charities that obviously wantedto so-called help these
children. So Honeycutt House isthis absolutely beautiful House
in Somerset. And. It was underthe ownership of the Acklands.
And in 1942-43, it wasrequisitioned by Somerset County
(06:11):
Council for evacuees. And sothen they start filling it with
children who are being bornlocally to black GIs. Since
then, it's been a hotel forwalking holidays. So it's kept
going as this wonderful place tobe.
DAVID OLUSOGA (06:30):
I'm here with Anne Evans and Carol Edwards,
childhood friends, to revisittheir story here at Holnicote
House. And to shine a light on ahidden part of British history.
Carol, you look very emotional.
CAROL (06:46):
Yes, I do. I've felt a lot of emotion coming back to my
beginnings.
DAVID OLUSOGA (06:53):
To your beginnings?
CAROL (06:55):
It's my third visit to the place in what?
70 odd years and it just bringsback so many happy memories
DAVID OLUSOGA (07:05):
And where you two met a long time ago. And this
room in particular this is thelounge now the house is a hotel.
This was a place that youplayed?
ANN (07:14):
This is the playroom yes. And we had the doll and the crib
and the other toys. It wouldn'tbe just us two maybe someone
else would join in because allthe toys there belonged to
everyone
CAROL (07:27):
Yeah nothing was mine all yours it was ours.
DAVID OLUSOGA (07:32):
Seven decades later you both feel that you
were you were shaped by yourvery early years
CAROL (07:38):
Absolutely
DAVID OLUSOGA (07:40):
And how old were you when you arrived Ann?
ANN (07:43):
I was three days old when I got you and I was four and
eleven months when I went fromhere.
DAVID OLUSOGA (07:52):
And how about you, Carol?
CAROL (07:53):
I arrived here when I was about two and a half weeks and I
left probably about the sametime as that. I think we all
left almost all together, didn'twe? You're five, yeah. Yeah.
ANN (08:05):
You moved on to a different place when you came to five, but
I was adopted, so...
DAVID OLUSOGA (08:10):
How about you, Carol?
CAROL (08:11):
I went from here to Wellington.
DAVID OLUSOGA (08:14):
Which was another children's home.
CAROL (08:16):
Yeah, yeah.
DAVID OLUSOGA (08:16):
Again at Somerset?
CAROL (08:17):
Yeah, and I was there until I was about 12. Yeah, I
liked it a lot. I was happythere.
But there's no place like home.
DAVID OLUSOGA (08:28):
You describe the children here as a happy bunch.
CAROL (08:31):
We were happy.
DAVID OLUSOGA (08:32):
Here's a photograph. I think it's a
testimony to that. When I lookat this picture, I see children
who look really close. You'reall touching each other. You're
hugging each other. There'shands on shoulders. Can you tell
me?
CAROL (08:46):
That's Leon, my boyfriend. I was going to marry
him at that age, I tell you.
DAVID OLUSOGA (08:49):
And where were you, Carol?
CAROL (08:51):
That one. That's me. That's Deborah.
DAVID OLUSOGA (08:55):
Where were you at?
ANN (08:57):
In the front.
DAVID OLUSOGA (08:57):
There you are.
CAROL (08:58):
She's always in the front.
ANN (09:00):
About three, I think, when I was taken.
DAVID OLUSOGA (09:03):
I thought that was you when I saw this picture.
The gang.
CAROL (09:07):
Yeah.
DAVID OLUSOGA (09:09):
And the nurses, I mean, these are nursery nurses.
Yeah, nursery nurses. I mean,they were probably teenagers.
CHAMION CABALLERO (09:12):
They were 17 and 18, that's all they were.
But no, they were lovely.
DAVID OLUSOGA (09:17):
Do you think you were insulated from the racism
of Britain in the 40s and 50s bybeing here with these very kind
young nurses.
ANN (09:24):
Yes, I think we were.
DAVID OLUSOGA (09:26):
And it does explain this happy little gang
of kids on the lawn 70 yearsago.
CAROL (09:31):
Yeah. Yeah, we were happy, we were healthy and we
were loved.
DAVID OLUSOGA (09:37):
Should we have a look at some other rooms where
you might have other memories?
ANN (09:40):
Yes, yes, by all means. Do you want to go to the potty
room, Carol?
CAROL (09:44):
I want to see the potty room.
DAVID OLUSOGA (09:46):
You lead the way.
ANN (09:50):
No it wasn't in there... it isn't that one
CAROL (09:59):
We've lost the potty room
See, I can remember all thesebrown doors.
DAVID OLUSOGA (10:11):
Shall we try down here?
Do you remember these tiles,this pattern?
ANN (10:18):
I would think this is more or less where it was.
DAVID OLUSOGA (10:22):
And this was the potty room is that right?
ANN (10:23):
And that was it, yeah. And you'd take the pots out of
there, and we'd all line upthere.
CAROL (10:29):
Yeah.
ANN (10:30):
Bums on each pot. Yeah. And Leon then would be the leader.
We're going to play trains.
DAVID OLUSOGA (10:38):
Should we go and look at some other rooms and see
if they bring up other memories?
CAROL (10:42):
Yes. Okay.
Ah, yes. Here we go.
DAVID OLUSOGA (10:49):
So what was this room?
CAROL (10:51):
Piano room.
DAVID OLUSOGA (10:52):
Piano room. Hence the piano.
CAROL (10:56):
Let's give it a little tinkle. Look at the state of
these keys. Yes. Do you rememberthat one? Do you know why that's
white? It's been replacedbecause that's the one you broke
your teeth on.
DAVID OLUSOGA (11:09):
This key in the piano?
CAROL (11:10):
It had to be replaced because you used to chew them.
ANN (11:13):
Yeah, I was chewing them, yeah.
DAVID OLUSOGA (11:16):
And this is a big room.
CAROL (11:17):
It's lovely.
DAVID OLUSOGA (11:19):
I can imagine all the children in that photograph.
All of you running around.
CAROL (11:22):
And the noise bouncing off the walls.
ANN (11:25):
And one of the nurses would play the piano for us all to
sing Christmas carols.
DAVID OLUSOGA (11:30):
So your first Christmas is...
ANN (11:31):
Was spent here, yeah.
DAVID OLUSOGA (11:34):
And out there, it's a view into the front
garden.
So this is now out in thegarden. It is absolutely
beautiful.
CAROL (11:46):
Yeah. Same old trees.
DAVID OLUSOGA (11:49):
A lot bigger.
CAROL (11:50):
A lot bigger, yeah.
DAVID OLUSOGA (11:51):
Shall we head down?
CAROL (11:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Living here, it was like everyday was a summer's day, wasn't
it Ann? We'd get up, getdressed, wash, have our
breakfast, to the potty room,outside, until the sun went
down.
ANN (12:10):
Go for a walk then
CAROL (12:10):
Go for a walk, lots of walks, didn't we?
That's why I'm so short.
DAVID OLUSOGA (12:17):
So you were taken out of here on walks in the
countryside?
ANN (12:20):
Yeah, all over the place.
CAROL (12:22):
Walked almost every day, didn't we?
DAVID OLUSOGA (12:25):
And so the reasons why you were brought
here were to do with racialattitudes in society, but for
the years you were here this wasa sanctuary from those
attitudes.
CAROL (12:34):
Absolutely.
ANN (12:35):
When I was in South Wales I was told on a regular basis to
get back where I belonged, asthey didn't want me in
Cwmtillery, and I kept sayingI'm not going anywhere, I live
here.
DAVID OLUSOGA (12:49):
And up until that point, because you'd been here
at Holnicote, you'd notexperienced this?
ANN (12:52):
No, never. Didn't even know what they were on about. I'd got
into the family well. I had fourolder brothers and I acquired a
grandmother and a grandfatherwho were lovely. They were
lovely people. And mygrandmother, I got very close to
my grandmother. And she wouldrow with anyone who had a mind
(13:15):
to say anything to me. She'd rowwith them.
DAVID OLUSOGA (13:18):
You mean anything racist?
ANN (13:19):
Yeah.
CAROL (13:19):
Unlike Anne and some of the other children, I didn't get
any sort of racial abuse. I wasabout maybe 15, 16. That's when
I realised I was different. Andthe only reason I came to that
conclusion was through music.
I thought, right, I'm going tosave up and get a record player.
(13:40):
Meanwhile, I buy some records.The first one I got was Shirley
Bassey. Still got it to thisday. It's called In the Still Of
The Night. It cost me 19shillings and 11 pence, which is
a penny short of a pound intoday's money. Still got it,
still play it.
SPK_5 (13:54):
And I can remember hearing Shirley Bassey. I
thought, wow, what a voice. Andthen I got into Sarah Vaughan
and Billy Eckstein and EllaFitzgerald. And I looked at the
covers and I thought, hang on aminute. Because they were all
black. And I'm thinking, theylook like me. And from that day
on, I've been black and proud.
DAVID OLUSOGA (14:22):
As you moved on through life, what did it make
you think about your ownchildhood and how you'd been
brought up?
ANN (14:28):
When I decided to look for my biological mother, I went
around to my four brothers topass it with them, because as
long as mam and dad were stillalive, I wouldn't have looked.
DAVID OLUSOGA (14:41):
And where did that search take you?
ANN (14:42):
Well, it took me to find my mother, eventually, who really
didn't want to know anyway. Itwas just a mistake. I had too
much to drink. And I said, well,look, all I want from you is the
name of my father. And she gaveme that, and I said, and from
then on, I shan't bother youanymore. I got too much to lose.
CAROL (15:04):
My father was always in touch with me through his niece.
At one point, he tried to getcustody of me, going through the
local authorities. And at thatpoint, I was still at school. I
was about 14, 15. And theauthorities saying that Carol's
happy where she is. Because hewanted me to go out there.
DAVID OLUSOGA (15:26):
To the United States.
CAROL (15:28):
To live, yeah. And they said, no, it wouldn't be... It
wouldn't be fair to me to sendme off to a different country,
into a different family wherepeople are a lot blacker than
me. So, no, he gave up in theend.
DAVID OLUSOGA (15:40):
Even though your father was trying to reunite
with you, the authorities got inthe way and felt that way.
CAROL (15:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I don't think I would have
gone anyway, David. No
DAVID OLUSOGA (15:50):
I just wanted to ask you about what happened
after you became adults and wenton to have families of your own.
ANN (15:58):
When I was very young when I met my husband, I was 15 and
we'd only been going out about12 months I think and he said,
I'm going to marry you. He waswhite. And I said, I don't think
your mother likes me. Don'tmatter what she likes, he said,
I'm going to marry you. Andthree years later we got married
(16:21):
and we lasted for 60, nearly 61years which he passed six weeks
ago. And we had four children,two boys and two girls.
My children experienced a bit ofracism, but of course I tried to
explain to them I may have beenoverprotective, which, you know,
(16:41):
as far as some people wereconcerned, but as far as I was
concerned, that was my duty as amother. I was to protect my
children.
DAVID OLUSOGA (16:49):
Do you think there's anything that you guys
had, because you're such aclose-knit group of children,
that is kind of special, sort ofalmost, that other children
don't have?
ANN (17:00):
But I think and that's why. Because it was so special. It
doesn't matter how old we are,we've still got that connection.
DAVID OLUSOGA (17:07):
And it must be special to look at that
photograph of that little groupof children.
ANN (17:11):
Well, it'll always remain special, I think.
SPK_5 (17:13):
Just to say there wasn't more children in that photo.
It's just a handful, isn't it? Icounted the number of heads I
saw in this Christmas photo andI counted at least 30 heads.
There might have been a fewmore, I don't know.
ANN (17:27):
And I still try and keep in contact with Carol and Deborah
and now we have found anothertwo children that was in the
home with us and in contact withthem all. And I hope I'm able to
keep that up until we all dropoff our perch one by one.
DAVID OLUSOGA (17:48):
I've just left Anne and Carol and I've come to
find out more about the modernlegacy of this history with
Chamion Caballero. Hi there
CHAMION CABALLERO (17:56):
Hi David.
DAVID OLUSOGA (17:57):
So this is a history that for all sorts of
reasons was brushed under thecarpet. But that's been
changing, and it's been changingeven faster because of modern
technology.
CHAMION CABALLERO (18:08):
That's right. I'm the director of The Mixed
Museum. We're an online museumand archive sharing and
preserving the history of racialmixing in Britain. And one of
the questions we get asked themost often is, can you help me
find my black GI relatives? Weusually pass those inquiries on
to a wonderful organisationcalled GI Trace and they help
(18:32):
the children of GIs find theirfamilies using DNA testing.
What is possible now is throughthe science of DNA testing,
answers can be found that weremuch more difficult to find
before. When we receiveinquiries, some of those come
from what we call theoriginal'Brown Babies', but
(18:53):
increasingly we're gettinginquiries from their children
and their grandchildren.
DAVID OLUSOGA (18:58):
Those journeys to find lost fathers in this case,
irrespective of whetherit's'Brown Babies' in the 1940s
or any other form of familyseparation, they can be very
challenging and the outcomes arenot always what people want. How
do you manage those realities?
CHAMION CABALLERO (19:16):
What we're finding is really helpful is the
connecting of the people whohave gone through this process
to share their stories with eachother.
DAVID OLUSOGA (19:24):
With one another.
CHAMION CABALLERO (19:24):
That's right.
DAVID OLUSOGA (19:25):
So even if it doesn't work out, even if the
trace leads to a dead end orsomeone who doesn't want to
speak, you've at least joined acommunity.
CHAMION CABALLERO (19:32):
Absolutely. Before we could get to talking
about the science of DNAtesting, we actually had to let
people tell their stories. Wereally had to let people tell
their stories because so manypeople grew up isolated, not
meeting anybody else who lookedlike them. And so finding that
they felt themselves outsiders.Even where they knew that they
(19:56):
had black heritage, thatheritage wasn't connected to the
post-Windrush migration.
So people would assume thatpeople were of African Caribbean
descent, of African descent, butactually their heritage is
African American, very differenthistory, particularly the
legislation against interracialmarriage. So our current
(20:21):
project, we currently have agroup of around 30'Brown Babies'
families members who have cometogether to explore the role of
DNA testing in their lives.
DAVID OLUSOGA (20:32):
It is remarkable, isn't it, that eight decades
after the end of the war, thatthere are still people
contacting organisations likeyours saying, I think, I think I
might be descended from a blackGI.
CHAMION CABALLERO (20:44):
Yes. One person told me that she's in her
80s and people have said to her,you haven't found your dad.
You've had a happy life. Does itmatter? And she said, it
matters. It will always matter.And I won't stop searching until
the end.
DAVID OLUSOGA (21:03):
And it's a search for knowledge.
CHAMION CABALLERO (21:04):
It's a search for knowledge.
DAVID OLUSOGA (21:05):
And identity.
CHAMION CABALLERO (21:06):
And identity, very much so, of who you are.
It's been really importantactually that the children and
grandchildren of the'BrownBabies' have started to become
involved in this process. Theyare giving their mothers and
fathers the confidence to speakout about subjects that have
previously been shrouded insecrecy and shame. They're
(21:30):
telling them that it's okay totalk about this. In fact, it's
really important to talk aboutthis. And by talking about it,
you open up this history and youhelp preserve it for other
people.
DAVID OLUSOGA (21:46):
So we are out in the garden, sat at a table in
front of Holnicote House, Anneand Carol. You still feel, both
of you, all these decades later,a sense of coming home?
CAROL (21:59):
Absolutely.
DAVID OLUSOGA (22:02):
You're here to keep alive the memory of a
strange and remarkable chapterin the long history of this
house. And when you walk aroundon this lawn and you walk
between those rooms...
CAROL (22:14):
I can hear children laughing. And do you know what?
I can never ever rememberchildren crying. Can you?
ANN (22:19):
No, no.
CAROL (22:21):
Except when you hit them. Do you remember when you used to
hit them? They used to cry then,didn't they?
ANN (22:25):
It was her it was, and she's blaming me.
DAVID OLUSOGA (22:31):
I think it's an untold chapter to this story
about Ann's naughtiness.
Thank you for listening to thisepisode of the National Trust
Podcast. If you'd like todiscover more about the story of
(22:53):
Britain's'Brown Babies' andexplore more first-hand
interviews, you could start withLucy Bland's book,
Britain's'Brown Babies', or headto The Mixed Museum at
mixedmuseum.org.uk.
If this podcast has resonatedwith you and you'd like to
explore your family'sconnections to the GIs of the
(23:13):
Second World War, you canconnect with our experts and
explore The Mixed Museum and GITrace. And you can keep up with
all episodes of the NationalTrust Podcast by following us on
your favourite podcast app.That's all from me, David
Olusoga. Goodbye.
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