Is the Podcasting Industry Really Worth 7.4 Billion? #629

In this episode titled “Is the Podcasting Industry Really Worth 7.4 Billion?”, hosts Todd Cochrane and Rob Greenlee discuss their experiences with the upcoming Podcast Show 2025 in London, Todd’s travel plans, and his preparations for the event. Todd describes his recent return home and the updates he had to undertake in the studio after … Continue reading Is the Podcasting Industry Really Worth 7.4 Billion? #629 →

The post Is the Podcasting Industry Really Worth 7.4 Billion? #629 appeared first on New Media Show.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Oh, yeah. And here we are with the
new media show back at our almost
regular time. Yeah. Except except, Rob, you had
a
interview to go to. So
Yeah. I had a conflict there that was
booked booked before I made my calendar change.
So
Yes.
So,

(00:20):
That's all it was. Yeah. No no worries.
But
back here in the Palacio Studios in Southern
Michigan,
No more OBS.
Hopefully, no more disconnected
cameras.
Well, you know, it always makes for a
fun experience. Right, Tom? Yeah. Absolutely.

(00:41):
And,
but anyway, I was surprised.
I yesterday,
I got in Monday night. Of course, I
was a vegetable.
And then,
Tuesday,
I I just, yeah, finished work. And I
was like, I got to turn the studio
on because if I don't,
something will happen. And,

(01:02):
and, of course, what it was was
dozens of updates
and
you know, so that that took all night
and but everything was working. So,
we're ready for the for the show today.
So
Yes. So how long were were you gone?
Was it a couple months? Seventy days.
Seventy. Okay. Yeah. So about

(01:22):
about two months. Yeah. A little over two
months.
So, things weren't too dusty and,
that's the main thing. Of course, I had
everything covered up with terry cloths and, you
know, to protect from,
whatever dust did migrate in here. But here
we are.
I'm home for just a few days and
then off to the podcast show.

(01:42):
Wow. You know, they call themselves a podcast
show twenty twenty five. They don't call themselves
a podcast show
London
anymore. They've they've,
they're just calling themselves
That could be a sign of something to
come here. Yeah. So the podcast show twenty
twenty five.
And,
I I've got a few observations.

(02:03):
I,
first of all, the
you know, as an exhibitor, you have an
exhibitor portal.
An exhibitor portal for them is just register
who's gonna be attending. It's just two of
us. So I got that you know, Mackenzie
did that or or I don't know. I
did it or somebody did it.
And then,

(02:23):
normally, Mackenzie takes care of everything else, but
they then they launch an app portal,
which doesn't copy everything over from the exhibitor
portal,
and
only I could update that. So I was
a little bit irritated because
you have to be an attendee to update
to it it just anyway, it's
so we finally,

(02:43):
after many attempts,
got into their system. It's just like every
one of these trade shows does a bunch
of stuff different. So Oh, yeah. Anyway,
we're we're set up and ready to to
leave. And I leave on Monday,
get in Tuesday set up, and then Wednesday,
Thursday is the show. Normally, we'd get in
a day earlier, but to be honest with

(03:05):
you, at $400
a night for the hotel room,
which is, you know, extraordinary.
Of course, it's London.
So Is that in
US dollars or Yes. In US dollars.
So,
we're gonna we're gonna come in a day
later, do the setup, and then do the
show. And I'm gonna stay a couple extra

(03:26):
days. I got points. I'm gonna stay in
a change hotels and do the tourist thing
for two days then come if I had
realized Monday was Memorial Day, I wanna come
home to
Memorial Day. But, unfortunately, I'm flying through Jersey.
So,
you know, we'll we'll see if I make
it or not.
Or not New Jersey. I mean, Newark. Flying

(03:47):
through Newark. Right. Yeah. Right.
And,
yeah. So,
Dave, the other guy, he got rerouted. United
took him to Denver and from from Indianapolis
to Denver, from Denver to to UK.
I did not get rerouted.
So
I guess my flight leaves late enough. They
think it's not gonna be an issue, but,

(04:09):
yeah. So, anyway,
but some observations going into the portal,
there was,
I guess the best way to describe it.
There is a,
what's the best way to say it? There's
profiles.

(04:30):
So I'm reading through,
I don't know, 50 pages of profiles
of people that have signed up for the
app.
And
the number of people that are producers
and I mean, as producer, producer, producer, producer,
producer, producer.
You know, I've I manage a network, manage

(04:51):
a network, manage a network, but very
few
in the app so far that were actual
podcasters.
So this concerns me.
I am sure there will be a fair
share of people there, but if this turns
into podcast movement where there are only

(05:11):
industry people at the event.
It was just page after page after page
of industry people. So
to me that
and maybe industry people are more aligned with,
you know, putting their profile up.
But it it it did surprise me just

(05:33):
a little bit.
Yeah. Well, I think it's a it's a
trend that we've seen,
prior,
that,
you know, these events have turned into
it's events for business deals Yeah. And meetings
and,
content representatives
meeting with each other Right. Not content creators

(05:55):
meeting with people. Right. But it was page
after page of it, you know, coming from
Australia, France, Germany,
Ireland. And, again, it was
heads of networks and this and this and
this and this because I, you know, I'm
kinda going through trying to figure out who
I can message
to say, hey. Come on over and have
a conversation.
And I think I sent

(06:17):
on 20 pages
of looking at profiles. I think I sent
11 messages.
So that doesn't bode well,
from,
from attendees stating. Now last year,
we there was a fair number of attendees
that were podcasters that were walk ins,
So maybe they weren't worried about the app.

(06:38):
So
I guess I'll find out next week,
and then we'll make a determination. You know,
we're even talking about
whether or not we attend Podcast Movement at
all next year.
You know, we're talking about, you know Oh,
even in Intel's. Yeah. As an exhibitor.
So, you know, we're we're committed this year.

(07:00):
But if it turns out it's just an
industry event again,
I won't renew my booth. I will just
go and as an individual
and, you know, do business, in the hallways.
So,
yeah, if if it
Yeah.
I think it's an interesting,
thought, Todd,

(07:21):
of what's happening to these events. And
these events are not catering to the needs
No. Of content creators. No. Not at all.
So Podfest is,
but
but Podcast Movement definitely is well, you know,
from the last two shows.
Yeah. I tend to agree with that. I
think,

(07:42):
that may be an opportunity
that's exposing itself too is to that there's
a window of opportunity here for,
shows to be more creator focused. Yeah.
And of those people that were
listed, at least so far that I've looked
at,
very few from America are going to London
as one would expect.

(08:04):
Yeah.
Just a month ago or so, a couple
months ago, I there was a lot of
fear mongering going on
about
if you traveled outside of The US,
The US, you know, wouldn't let you back
Oh, whatever. Whatever. My goodness. That's just that's
BS.
But that was a lot of the the
feedback that that I heard, eve even from

(08:25):
people that live in Canada. It's like, well,
I'm not going to The US because I
don't know if I'm gonna make it across
the border. Oh my god. Unbelievable.
Yeah. I know. I cleared, I cleared immigration
and customs,
coming through San Francisco in less than two
minutes.
So Yeah. Waiting for my well, I waited
for my bag for an hour, but yeah.

(08:45):
It's all fear mongering for political reasons. It's
just, yeah, ridiculous.
And,
UK now has a you have to fill
out the same type of paperwork people have
fill out coming here. It's a basically, gives
you a two year
window to be approved to come in, and
it's it's it's an entry approval or something
like that, which I don't mind. Every country

(09:05):
I go to almost has one of those.
Where are you staying?
You know, where you know,
that type of information. Todd, isn't there? I
mean, back back when I went to the
podcast show,
before I could leave London
at at the airport, I I had to
get a COVID test.
Oh, that was during the,

(09:26):
insanity. That was back back in well, that
was back in 2022.
So Yeah.
Yeah. So it was, yeah. So there's always
something, some
hurdle that you have to go through that
makes traveling a nightmare. So it's not really
not a nightmare. Fifteen minutes.
The application was buggy. I had to do
it on an on a phone. You couldn't
do it on the computer,

(09:47):
and it just took the app longer. Of
course, I just reapplied for my concealed,
carry yesterday.
And the website here in Michigan, it took
me thirty minutes just waiting for four screens
to update. So they're not it isn't just
anywhere else that's immune to these tech issues.
Right.
Well, if it's anything to do with government
or anything like that, it's gonna be a

(10:09):
mess. Yeah. So, you know
but anyway and, you know, a couple of
people, oh, aren't you worried about going to
London? I'm like, why?
Yeah. Well, it's You know? From the reason
I just said. It's like, I've been been,
you know, given all these fear based reasons
Yeah. Why they shouldn't do it. Right? You
know? It's fantastic.
Yeah. And and I'm I'm gonna go eat

(10:30):
pub grub, and I'm gonna have some pints,
and I'm gonna eat Indian food, and I'm
gonna I've been recommended an Italian place and
a French restaurant, so I'm gonna probably make
reservations to those two places,
eat in the evening.
Fancy, fancy places require, quote, unquote, reservation.
Of course, you know, I'll be that that
dude, that solo dude that walks in and
come in and, you know, takes up a

(10:52):
whole table. But,
Todd, there's a terrific burger joint right across
the street from the the I know. I
drive driveway up to the Yeah. Exhibition. I've
been in there. Oh, you have? Yeah.
But I don't go to London to eat
burgers. I go to London to eat as
much local cuisine, of course, Indian food, but
I can't get Indian food here.

(11:14):
So Really? No. Get Indian food there? It's
not in if I have to drive an
hour.
Oh, I see. Yeah. There's Oh, in in
Michigan. Yeah. Where I live here. Yeah. Right.
Alright. Yeah. Okay. Well, that makes more sense.
You know? So I guess I'll go to
London to have Indian food. Yeah. But
but it it is concerning,
you know? And

(11:35):
so I guess we'll see. We'll see what
the turnout is. I might come back and
have a completely
different report.
I know the chat. Positive one because it'd
be nice to actually get get a,
a good positive report from one of these
conferences that the interest is high and there's
a lot of energy at it. Yeah. There

(11:56):
was a lot of energy last year. That's
why we doubled down, you know. So I'm,
you know, I'm hopeful that it's carrying over.
At the same time, the,
you know, we're just all the stuff is
arriving here. I'm suit casing all the materials.
God forbid my suitcase gets lost because we'll
really be screwed.

(12:17):
But, you know, the booth is already set
up. We just show up and throw our
paperwork out.
Okay. So you did
but you guys didn't, ship your stuff there.
Oh, no. We don't do that. You you
know how much shipping is to London? I
know. I know. That's that's that's why I
asked the question. Yeah. No. No. No. It's
going in my suitcase. And if it fits
in my carry on, I'll put it in

(12:37):
the carry on above, but I don't think
it will.
Right.
Yeah.
So
but anyway,
I I kinda teased the the beginning of
this,
episode
about this concept that maybe,
podcasting may be bigger than all of us
have been talking about. Oh, really?

(12:57):
Yeah.
If you look at the
the share that I sent you Yeah. With
the the chart there that was put together
by,
of all people, Hernan Lopez. Mhmm.
His company, you know, the the founder of
Wondery and
one of the founders of the Podcast Academy
that I work with. He's back in business?

(13:19):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Or is he working?
He's got a company. Well, he's got his
own companies. Oh. So he's not working for
other people anymore.
Owl and Company,
I guess he did some research on this
and came up with a global podcast economy
number of 7,300,000,000.0.

(13:40):
So
and that that that breaks up,
and consolidates
all at the same time here a number
that's based on
direct ad revenue,
programmatic
ad revenue,
branded
work for hire. So
more,
you know Yeah.
Production standpoint,

(14:01):
revenue and
consumer revenue. So what is I mean consumer
giving money to podcasters?
I guess,
yeah. I'm whatever those sources were,
that that provided revenue, it's not specified exactly
what he meant by consumer revenue.
But I'm assuming that had something to do

(14:23):
with
direct payments,
maybe premium based
offerings, things like that.
So so
that 7,000,000,000
gets broken up. So the biggest piece of
it is direct ad revenue
at about 4,600,000,000.0.

(14:46):
Yeah. That is, is isolated at the top
of five percent of podcast.
Yeah. And,
the programmatic side is currently 1,600,000,000.0.
Interesting number.
And,
the branded work for hire kind of,
you know, studio consulting,

(15:07):
you know, podcasting experts kinda side of the
market is 1,300,000,000.0.
And Oh, that was consumer revenue, 1,300,000,000.0.
Oh, yeah. You're right. Yeah. Exactly. So point
three is the is the branded,
work for hire. I don't believe this at
all.

(15:29):
Okay.
Why not?
Why not? No way. I just don't think
it's it's a real number.
You're telling you're telling me that
consumers
are contributing $1,300,000,000
a year to podcasters.
Let's let's just let's just think about that

(15:49):
for a second.
And if if you want, Rob, get your
get your calculator out.
And,
let's You know, we don't have the best
of reputations for breaking out the calculator. Okay.
So here's a calculator.
And, you know, someone's gonna have to back
me up here. [phone].

(16:14):
K. That's 1,300,000,000.0
divided by
400,000
active shows.
I think he's
That I think he tried to roll up,
the whole industry and that even includes
video. So

(16:34):
that's the
that's the my understanding of what he was
trying to do here.
So that means that
if if he include if we just talk
about active podcasts, that would be $3,250
that each podcaster
on average was making. If we just do
an average. Now let's let's let's change this

(16:55):
again.
Let's say Hey, Todd. Todd. Todd. Todd. Before
you pooh pooh it too much, keep into
account that it it says in the report
that I read that this is also including
video I know. And and and Patreon revenue
also, as well as other other kind of
paid premium.
So what did Patreon announce recently that it

(17:17):
paid out? There was a number they had
given. Do we remember what that number is?
I don't I don't remember off the top.
So if I take so if I take
1,300,000,000.0
and we know that
90%
of shows are not getting money from their
audience.
So let's say let's just say 40,000
shows in podcasting are getting money from their

(17:37):
audience.
Mhmm. So how many how many more shows
in, YouTube?
10,000?
I don't know. I don't have a number
on that to to be able to dispute
anything here. Well, I'm just I you know,
there's probably 10,000.
I I'm guessing maybe I can't imagine there's
more than 10,000

(17:58):
podcasters on YouTube earning money from it all.
Is that how you define what a podcast
is, Todd? That means Well, that's what he's
he's he's saying podcast. We're gonna talk in
YouTube, so we'll throw another 10,000 people in
there.
Okay. So let's divide that by 50,000.
Okay.
That means that each one of them are

(18:18):
making $26,000
a year from their audience.
The show the top show in podcasting
in podcasting
that earns money from their audience is definitely
Adam Curry and John C. DeVore.
They they by far
they by far earn the most money or

(18:39):
at least the most transparent about it.
You're talking about revenue that's direct from their
audience. Right. Donations.
Let's do this. Let's look at here. What
is podcast revenue from Patreon? They gave out
a number.
You know, Todd, this is the first time

(19:00):
that anyone's tried to attempt this because I
think we have been talking about, you know,
if you look at I mean, if you're
gonna point out any of these numbers as
as kind of subjective
is this number of 4,600,000,000.0
around podcasts are mainly ad supported. Wow. That's
that's another crazy number. So Well okay. But

(19:23):
if you include video in there, that means
that the revenue coming out of what is
seen as a podcast on YouTube or Spotify
or all those Well, we shouldn't include added
Again, they to the number plus But we
shouldn't include that. But, Todd, this is globally
too. Most of the numbers that we see
here in The US
are US only numbers. Right? So

(19:44):
they the numbers that we see from the
IAB as far as current ad ad market
Yeah. It's always
US only.
This is trying to do a global
spin. I'd like to see how he came
up with these numbers. Just just show I'll
have two. Just show the data.
Now, Patreon did get 472,000,000.

(20:06):
Right. But this is to date,
I think.
I don't know. Yeah. About that. 472,000,000
to date, not this year.
Okay. This is based on 2024.
Alright. Revenue. So 2023
was 350,000,000.
So maybe it was for a year, 470,000,000

(20:28):
for a year. So maybe 2024 for Patreon.
But then again, how are they defining podcasts?
Is that YouTube?
Is that,
you know
That's
it it doesn't specify in the in the
information I can see here. Then there there
there should be some very rich podcasters.

(20:49):
Very rich
if it's these kinds of numbers.
If we're just if we if we think
about audio, then the majority of that money
is going to video folks because there is
not that many audio
podcasters that are making
you know?
I'd like to hear I'd like to hear
somebody's numbers if they're willing to to lay

(21:09):
it out on how much they're earning from
their audience.
I would like to hear some of the
top shows as I've earned a million dollars
from my audience. I I would love to
hear someone disclaim that.
That would be a great boost.
That'd be great news. Good, good good project
for the IAB to undertake is to try

(21:29):
and roll these numbers up just like what's
being attempted here. Yeah. May maybe these numbers
are off by
25%. Who knows? The large figure count. First
time that anybody's tried to do this. Yeah.
I maybe maybe globally. But, again,
that 4,600,000,
that means the rest of the world is
doing only 2,000,000,000

(21:51):
$22,300,000,000.0.
Yeah.
I I would be shocked if it was
that much.
You mean,
across the rest of the world, you mean?
Yeah. Who's who are these people that are
get 7,000,000,000
Okay, Todd.
I think,
one of the challenges of this conversation is

(22:12):
we're bouncing back between back and forth between
talking about audio only Oh, I know.
And being fair and looking at this from
a broader
But the thing is, it depends on how
broad is a brush you wanna paint.
If if it Yeah.
If it's got a microphone in the background,
are they calling it a podcast?

(22:34):
You know, that's the problem here.
Well, Todd, I I I can't remember if
I mentioned this on the last episode, but
I just did in the interview that I
just did. But,
was
was I I'm increasingly
seeing,
many of the podcasts that I saw. And
may maybe I did mention this in last
time we did this, but

(22:55):
many of the shows that I would
see as
a audio and video podcast have removed the
microphones
from their videos.
So, like like, instead of my microphone being
visible
Can't hear you.
I know. Just pull it out of the
screen.
Yeah. But it's a Yeah. It's a microphone

(23:16):
that's over their head. Well, I can't hear
you, so pull your microphone back up.
Todd, are you trying to make a statement
here? Or No. If they if they if
they have good audio. So let me let
me give you a little fun thing here.
There's a new website out. It's called what'sapodcast.com.
Oh, really? Yeah. I hadn't seen this. Yeah.
What's a podcast at what'sapodcast.com?

(23:40):
A podcast is a noun.
Episodic multimedia content is downloadable via RSS, Real
Simple Syndication. A podcast can be audio or
video.
Okay.
I would say that that kinda scrambles
the issue a little bit. No. It don't.
It's just a little just a little jab
there.

(24:00):
Just a little bit of a jab.
A little bird shared that with me.
So Talk about,
I've I've got some comments that come monkey
monkey up the waters. There's a Beauty Bubble
says one number published was the estimated monthly
payouts
for this category add up to nearly 3,500,000.0.

(24:24):
Which category is that? I'm looking at Or
or 3,500,000,000.0
or No. 3,500,000.0.
Here is more from the paragraph.
While the podcast genre might not
attract nearly as many patrons, the top Patreon
creators runs a podcast more about as of
July 24, there were over 17,000 podcasters to

(24:44):
at least one patron on Patreon.
The estimated payouts for this category
add up to 3,500,000.0,
and hope that adds some color to the
conversation.
Earnings now include private donations, PayPal, Venmo, even
the odd cryptocurrency donation might be added.
And,

(25:05):
Glitch says Todd's gonna be Todd. Yes. He
is. So
Well,
this gets back to a much bigger issue
in the medium right now that that that
really applies to everything.
Is
from monetization
to metrics
to everything is that we're we've
we've decided

(25:26):
or the market has decided that we're going
to just scramble everything up. You know, it's
almost like we have, like, a dozen eggs,
and we chose to just crack them all
and put them in one bowl. Right? It's,
it's the,
it's the,
YouTube thing. You know? They're they're they're BS.
Well,
okay. I mean,

(25:48):
but but the audience is voting with their
eyes and with their ears. Right? So
regardless of what YouTube has done or anything,
that is what we're in that's we're up
against. Right? And Spotify's recent change in their
Which has got podcasters leaving.
Right. Right. Well, I was gonna talk about

(26:09):
that a little bit. But,
you know, changing from start to play, which
is kinda what they've done. Yeah.
So and then publicly displaying the play part,
which is
not based on any kind of IAB
metrics standard or whatever. So we're gonna create
this
fragmentation
of metrics again, Todd, which I know is

(26:29):
gonna drive you crazy.
So it's like, you know, the numbers that
are visible are
are reported to advertisers, and that's gonna that's
gonna fluctuate. I think people need to use
caution here and and and being very careful
on this video narrative.
Be careful what you wish for.
Because this video. But not but be careful

(26:51):
what you wish for
because
podcasting could come unglued,
and hosting companies could go out of business.
And all you're left
this is serious.
All you're gonna be left with is YouTube
and Spotify.
That's why the industry needs to The industry
can't do nothing because industry is sabotaging

(27:11):
itself
by talking about this ongoing
video narrative that, my god, you got to
have a video.
Now let me show you something. I started
a new show called Podcast Myth
in my recent
episode,
Spotify and YouTube versus RSS and podcasting. You
should go listen to it. You might be

(27:32):
entertained.
I I'm just saying
that the the whole podcast establishment
has bought into video,
and they they are Video
has always been part of podcast. I understand.
But they are buying into the YouTube
narrative
of podcasting.
They don't give two shits about RSS and

(27:54):
video.
I was asked again
recently, do you guys support video? I said,
yes. We've supported video for eighteen years.
Mhmm. Then what apps support video? Okay. Here's
here's the link to the list.
You were asked this too in a group
recently,
and you gave them a list. Page page

(28:14):
that was put up by Rob Walsh. Yeah.
So you put up information,
but but I don't see a rush
of podcasters
wanting to have a
video podcast via RSS.
Well, that's that's because Apple hasn't, woken up
to what's going on here.

(28:35):
So,
Grok and we're not gonna count Grok anyway.
Grok,
beauty bubble says of course, I think Chad
GPT says the same thing.
A podcast is a digital audio video series
typically episodic that you can download or stream
online. Download. Yes. Yes. Download via RSS.
They
did throw that word stream in, didn't they?

(28:56):
Yep. They did.
Which
which plays into the podcasting two point o
narrative too, Todd. So, I mean, it's
all these things are coming together to just
drive everybody absolutely crazy. Well, I I'm not
Let's just admit it, Todd. We're we're in
the,

(29:16):
the kind of crazy time in the medium.
Ask me how many times Who's in their
minds? Ask me in how many times last
month have I been on a call with
a podcaster asked me do I need to
do video?
Zero.
Ask Doesn't mean it's not happening. Ask me
how many times this month we've had people
sign up for Vidapod
to bring their video back to podcasting,

(29:39):
and that's a big number.
Okay. That's a little bit of a clue
what's going on here, Todd.
Well, again, these are people that are never
had a podcast.
These people have been on YouTube.
Well, I would say that's a good trend.
Yeah. There there there's no question about that.
But I think
this whole kind of trying to turn our

(29:59):
back on on on videos actually turning back
on the audience. No. It's not. I think
I think we have to understand that it's
it's all fucking propaganda.
No. It's not. Oh, I Propaganda? No. Okay.
No. I I the narrative is starting to
change from what I'm hearing from content creators.
I'm just telling you Your platform is thought

(30:21):
of as a audio first platform. Yeah. Of
course. Of course, those are gonna be the
conversations that you hear. No. I have people
talking to me all the time about what's
going on in the space, customers, and we're
doing customer calls on a weekly basis. We're
having great conversations,
and the majority of people don't have the
money or the time.
Yeah. Well, okay.

(30:42):
I'm not saying that everybody has to do
anything. I'm just saying that that
you're not speaking to the people there's a
whole another community Oh, good. In in
Go do YouTube. Go.
And and and sala be.
And, Todd, you're you're tapping into the benefit
of that, that there's this whole other community
that's thinking a little bit more about video

(31:04):
that could take what they're doing in video
and
work with your platform to get it into
audio. That's fine. But again, I think I
think that's that's the way you should focus.
Think we need to quit quit giving all
this credit.
I that's all I'm saying.
Get Credit to who? All this political narrative
about you gotta have a video podcast.

(31:27):
It's a political narrative? No. It is a
commercial narrative.
I don't really see it entirely that way
because I see it as the audience is
speaking.
The audience,
it hasn't left audio.
Those numbers are not going
What the research is showing us, Todd, is
that they want both. Well, again the audience

(31:49):
wants the option of having
audio or video.
Again, for top tier shows, that's it.
Well, okay.
Who else is being successful on you? Go
through, Rob, and make a list. I I
challenge you to spend two or three hours
and make a list
of try to find the top 250

(32:11):
YouTube
quote un go right to the podcast section
and make a list of the top shows.
See how deep you get
into YouTube with stuff that is classified a
podcast by YouTube.
If you get more than 250,
I would be shocked.
But there's they're the ones 50? Two hundred
and 50? Yeah. Go to the podcast section

(32:31):
on YouTube.
There's not 200 you you you they don't
they don't highlight 250
shows.
I don't understand what you're talking about. Okay.
So
So they don't highlight. I don't know what
that means. Okay.
Yeah. A podcast.

(32:53):
So let me tell you what I'm talking
about here.
On YouTube,
this guy,
he's never had a a audio podcast, LMG
Cliffs. Never.
He's always been a YouTuber.
Always. From the very beginning. Many, many years.

(33:14):
Just go through this whole list
and then thought if a
a a viewer of that or listener of
that Yeah. Looks at it, they're going to
immediately think it's a podcast. Well, that's why
it's listed as a podcast. But he does
other stuff besides standing in front of a
mic.
But again, go through this stack.
Casey Neistat, has he been a

(33:35):
a, you a podcaster? No.
So? He's a hardcore YouTuber, but they have
him listed in the podcast section.
Okay.
So, again, go through and look.
Also, by labeling your show on YouTube as
a podcast, it adds you to a different
feature area in the platform. Okay. So one,

(33:57):
two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine,
12,
15,
18,
20 one, 20 four. They only highlight 24
shows
in the podcast section. There's more,
but these are the only thing that they
class that they say is a podcast. Yeah.
They get
huge views.
Well, not really. This one's a 24.

(34:21):
Here's 219
k, 13 k views.
Okay. I wouldn't use this page as a
gauge on how many podcasts are in YouTube.
Well, then YouTube's doing a they're obviously, then
they're not promoting any. Why aren't they promoting
all these podcasts if they're doing so well?
Well, because what what YouTube does is algorithmic.

(34:42):
So you have logged in. Right? Yeah. So
this is your account. So it's it's finding
content in here that's relevant that it the
algorithm
the AI algorithm thinks is likely to be
more relevant to you.
No. No.
No.
No.
No.

(35:03):
No.
No.
No. No.
No. No. No.
There's there's Leo Laporte. Haven't listened to his
shows in more than ten years.
No.
No. No.
I'm not saying it's accurate, Todd. I'm just
saying that that's what it's doing here. It's
a it's an algorithmically
curated page.

(35:25):
That's all That's mostly what YouTube does. Beauty
Bible says do hashtag
podcast on YouTube. So you do
hashtag podcast.
13,000,000
videos
has a hashtag podcast.
See, this is another big area of difference
between what YouTube is doing and what Apple

(35:46):
does.
And but increasingly, Spotify is shifting to be
more like YouTube is algorithmically
curating
what their
account holders see. And that, you know, good
or bad,
you're not gonna see everything
on any page on YouTube

(36:08):
just because
they're trying to personalize,
they're trying to make it Mister beast mister
beast showed up as a podcast.
Hilarious.
Okay.
Wife goes to podcast and find husband there
with another woman. That is an
absolute
that's, you know, that's clickbait.

(36:32):
So
what is a podcast is
is a question that was asked by the
Oxford Road team Yeah. As part of the
media roundtable. Yeah.
And they talked to many people in the
industry.
I'm gonna invite Dan to come on the
show again
to talk about this because
what they have found is

(36:54):
is that the the media industry
is increasingly
seeing podcasting
is
is being included with video.
I have no doubt.
And well, because that's what the brands want.
The brands are buying against content now. They're
not buying against podcasts, buying against
TV shows, buying against radio. They're increasingly seeing

(37:17):
everything converge into digital. Right? So this is
part of a bigger trend that we're seeing
in media today is that it's it's a
consolidation. That's why I said that we're we
basically crack a dozen eggs all into one
bowl, and we're blending them together. So everything
on so it looks to me like everything
on YouTube is a podcast now. So

(37:39):
Okay. So what?
I mean
I mean, I thought that you always said
that it doesn't matter how they listen or
where they listen as long as they listen.
I know. But it's making this narrative, and
I'm looking at
many of these shows that are showing up.
They have beautiful,
very expensive studios.
Yeah. But they also have millions of views.

(38:03):
Okay.
And
they're they don't highlight anyone that doesn't have
any views.
Yeah. It's only people the only people I
highlight are people that have a large number
of views.
That is generally the case. Yes. Yeah. I
agree with you. So the average podcaster
that is in the 90 percentile

(38:25):
But that's what Apple does.
You have a big bigger chance of breaking
out in Apple if you That's what Spotify
does.
Yeah. Well, again All these big all these
big media companies are not going to put
on their front page shows that that have,
you know, five listeners. And there is my
do it. And there is my point.

(38:47):
I I agree. There is my there
is my
point.
Well,
because, Todd, unfortunately
There is my point.
We've moved into a new era.
Well, then guess what then? Every 90% of
the you're you're what you're telling right now,
Rob, is you're telling 90% of the audio
podcasters they should quit.

(39:10):
That's what say that. Yeah. Well, that's kinda
what you're saying. We moved into a new
era. Only big shows are gonna be able
to be seen. Well, that's not
true. Yeah. But, Todd, it was always a
myth.
What was a myth? That
that big shows weren't being highlighted.
That's all that's been going on since the

(39:31):
beginning of podcasting. But I but the thing
is what you've done is is the narrative
of podcasting
on video
is being so much put out there that
small shows that have a hundred listeners think
they have to do video now.
I don't think that really anything has really
significantly
changed, Todd.
I'm just saying. Platforms like Apple and Spotify

(39:52):
and all all the other ones feature
big shows. But the pressure clicking on. The
pressure that's being put by the establishment
on these smaller shows is you have to
have video.
And I'm like, no. You don't.
Who's the establishment? You have been talking about
you have to do video for the past
six months.

(40:12):
No. I haven't. It sure sounds like it.
You're hearing what you wanna hear, Todd. You're
not hearing what I'm actually saying. Okay. Tell
me what you're saying.
Well, I'll say it again. I think the
audience has heard me say it, like, 10
times, but, obviously, you haven't heard it, which
is I don't care whether or not a
person does just audio or just video Yeah.

(40:32):
Or both.
But I but I This is what the
the the this is why the media landscape
is so challenging right now. But are we
serving
video podcasters or are we serving audio podcasters?
Both.
I'll say it again. What's a podcast? Well,
I'm sorry, Todd, but this page doesn't doesn't

(40:53):
reflect the current market that that that we
live in today.
I know. It's it's living in the past
is what it is. It's not living in
the present.
And in the present,
there's very powerful creators out there now, Todd,
that think of themselves as
video and audio creators, not Oh, I know.
Audio and video creators. Oh, I oh, I

(41:14):
agree.
So, you know, you have to keep that
in mind that there's a whole another community
that we're trying to find out.
Way to say that you're not important.
So what it does say no. What it
did what it says is smaller it says
smaller creators, you're not important.
Well because the focus is on big creators.

(41:36):
Yeah. But that's always been the case, Todd.
I don't believe it.
Yeah. It's always been the case.
It's just now it's more the case.
Yeah. So that's what's changed. So then guess
what? Then the
so then what you're gonna see is you're
gonna see the audio podcasting
space
disappear.
No. We're not gonna see it. I I

(41:56):
I think it could.
No. Oh, I I absolutely think it could.
Todd, I have to really object to this
because you're fearmongering.
I'm not fearmongering. I I sure. I see
what's going on with the number of audio
shows being created.
I see it.
Go look at the stats.
Todd, the market adjusts to what the market

(42:17):
wants.
That's always been the case in the podcast.
It's true.
Right? If the market wants audio,
it'll get audio. Yeah. If the market wants
video, it's it should get video. Right? If
the market wants audio and video,
what should the market get? It gets whatever
it wants. And video. Yep.
I'm just saying there is an extreme risk.

(42:41):
I'm telling you.
Two to three years
two to three years of this narrative that
video is fucking everything,
which is what is being said today.
I don't think that's gonna be
People could
look at all the sessions. Video, video, video,
video. No one cares about audio.
So when when Todd But it doesn't mean

(43:02):
that audio is going to disappear.
So let's hope Don't fear monger on that.
Let's Because I don't think that's accurate. Let's
hope that the
that YouTube creators will start going to podcast
movement.
Otherwise Why? That event is not gonna survive.
Does one conference have to survive?

(43:23):
If if the conferences go away,
it's a telltale sign of what's happening in
the space. No.
If the conferences are struggling,
they're struggling because they're doing something that's not
catering to the market that exists today.
No.
They're definitely
there's definitely an issue in the space. I'm

(43:43):
just telling you. I mean, we'll we'll we'll
have to see what happens at the podcast
show
if it's the same pattern that we've been
seeing happen at Yeah. We'll see. We'll see.
We'll see. If it is the same pattern,
which there's pretty high likelihood that it will
be Yeah. In my view,
that this is indicative of the industry has
moved away
from being

(44:04):
a creator
medium
and has moved towards
being very singularly focused on the business side
of podcasting. Yep.
And that is a clue to where the
issue is. And that is a distant and
that will cause a disenfranchement.
Disin
I can't even say it. With just the

(44:25):
conferences. Right. I'm not gonna create a disenfranchement
of the content creators because they're just they're
they're doing their thing. Look what's in the
newsletters. Look at what's being announced.
It's I'm telling you,
James Crittland agrees with me on this to
a point
that that,
this the established podcast business
could be in very much in danger.

(44:46):
Yeah. Well, I think if
I agree with you from the perspective if
if we let RSS get disrupted. Well, it's
in in the conversation. If if we risk
of that. Oh, there is. If you keep
pushing this narrative that YouTube is God's gift
to everything.
Yeah. But but it's not about video.
That's not
what will harm RSS.

(45:09):
I don't believe.
What's gonna harm RSS
is us
losing focus on innovating on our RSS
and making it more relevant to listeners and
make it more relevant to the creator to
care about it.
And I don't know. I mean, I think
that the RSS,
issue has left the consciousness

(45:30):
of
the listening side of podcast Oh, yeah. Of
course. Many years ago. Oh, yeah. So
I don't think that we should be surprised
that the all the trend lines push to
push towards
a,
kind of a pullback from
RSS.
Well, it it hasn't helped that major players,

(45:50):
Marco,
Apple
Right.
And others that are actually RSS first ecosystems
Yeah. Are failing to
innovate
and surface stuff faster.
Yeah.
I think that's the real issue is that
it's not as relevant as it needs. But

(46:10):
at the same time,
I I would give everyone a little homework.
And it it'll tell a lot tell everyone
a lot about where my brain's at because
I'm you know, I spend a lot of
time thinking about this. And, you know, I
play devil's advocate here quite a bit. Oh,
I know. So arguing with Rob just a

(46:30):
little bit. Okay? So just so you guys
know,
Todd's not as ignorant as sometimes as he's
sounding on the show. Alright? Oh, yeah. Okay.
Okay. So, just
just just That's
a tight rope to walk. Yeah. It is.
Walk on. Yeah. But anyway,
go listen to episodes two fifteen, two 16,
and two seventeen of podcasting two point o.

(46:53):
Listen to them consecutively.
If you are in the
podcasting space,
if you are a RSS podcaster,
if you're a YouTuber Audio podcaster. If you're
an audio podcaster,
go listen to two fifteen, two 16, two
17
of Podcasting two point o. Go listen to
it. It's you're gonna have to listen to

(47:14):
about five hours of content.
You're gonna hear some very influential people. Yeah.
In those episodes, you're gonna hear Tom Webster.
You're gonna hear a couple of other parties
out there.
And
I agree.
And really what it boils down to
is that
the apps,

(47:35):
the modern day apps, the download apps,
have failed us.
Yeah.
Apple is
failing us. The the download apps have have
failed us and not kept up. That's just
simple fact.
Yeah. And and what is going to
be required

(47:55):
to
for those that are audio focused in order
to make maintain and be able to grow
and thrive
is that you're going to in in our
newsletter that went out today,
I I asked if you had a
niche.
You if you're in a niche category,

(48:15):
whatever it is,
postage stamps,
basket weaving, whatever niche you are in. If
you have a niche podcast,
I wanna hear from you because
collectively, there's probably
a dozen other niche
shows.
And what we have to do is we
have to become smarter

(48:36):
as audio
creators
to be able to
build
community
around those niche topics and around categories,
going back to the days of early day
of podcasting where you a network of 13
shows
or something like that has a place to

(48:56):
showcase
and be able to thrive.
But go listen to episode two fifteen, two
16, two 17 from podcasting two point o.
And
I think what you're gonna find out
and you're gonna realize
is that
the experience

(49:17):
and part of the reason why we've had
challenges in podcasting two point o is we're
trying to do all these cool things.
Yeah.
And we've we've we've become the chicken before
the egg or however that works, egg before
the chicken or, you know, you guys someone
said
Carp before the horse. Yeah. You know, whatever
it may be. And what we've learned is
that, you know, that as always, the apps

(49:40):
are the ones that
are not
being the ones that follow through, and then
we've just have a bad experience. It was
a miracle,
and I think it was probably something already
that Apple had
planned. It was probably just luck
that we got the transcript tag adopt over
there.
Yeah.
You know?
And I don't know if they did it

(50:02):
oh, I froze.
That's
that's pretty low hanging fruit, isn't it, Todd?
What's going on here? I'm freezing.
I see you back. Oh, yeah. That's not
a good sign. It's choppy.
That's odd.
Okay.
Blipping your Yeah. Glitching the matrix here. You
know, system hasn't been on in seventy days.

(50:23):
But,
I I I think there is a
a a true issue.
Oh, wow. The screen capture dropped out. That's
interesting.
Alright.
So, hopefully, I stay online.
So are you still moving? Yep. You're moving.

(50:44):
Yeah. I just think we're
we're in a situation now that, I froze
again. What the hell?
Yeah. Did you run out of
of RAM? Nah. It's it's purely a network
thing, so I don't know what's going on.
I may have to switch the camera over
to SDI.

(51:06):
Alright. There was I have a backup.
That's the good thing here.
Wow. That's very I've never seen this happen.
So I wonder if I can switch the
input.
Local

(51:27):
input.
Oh, I'm I'm I guess I'm moving now.
I'm not gonna switch it. Keep an eye
on it here. Yeah. It kept it locked
up again.
The hell's going on?
Okay. So, anyway, I think that
wow. Rob dropped off too.

(51:50):
We we went completely dark here.
And is this the camera? That's not the
camera.
Not that camera.
Now that's black. Why is that?

(52:13):
Alright. Might have to be on this camera
for a bit.
That's weird.
Oh, you're right. You dropped off too. So
I wonder if it's a
okay. Well, I'm on a different camera right
now, so the view is a little different.
I guess the key here is it's just
we just gotta play
we're gonna we're gonna end up playing devil's

(52:34):
advocate for a while and, you know, I
no. Not devil's advocate. We're gonna have to,
make some new experiences. And who's gonna who's
gonna have to do it is is us.
The,
you know, the the podcast hosts are gonna
have to do it.
Because the apps are not the apps aren't
gonna do it for sure.

(52:54):
Well, Todd, I think the bigger question too,
in addition to that, is around
metrics.
Yeah.
What do we do as an industry as
a reaction to what Spotify has done?
Well, Spotify has already reverted a little bit
from
their
let me get this somewhere where I guess
the mic's gonna be in the way the

(53:16):
whole time.
Some podcasters have already,
you know, said we're we're leaving.
We're gonna pull out, and they kind of
reverted,
after they announced what they were gonna do.
Yeah. I saw that
the the SIPs and Suds and Smokes podcast
has announced it's, gonna come off of Spotify,

(53:39):
based on
its decision to make non IAB metrics publicly
available,
Which plays right into what we're talking about
here is is the
Spotify has decided to scramble
the the playing field around metrics
and
show different numbers publicly than they,

(54:01):
have been historically
needing to use to report to
advertisers.
Yeah.
And that's creating a
a conflict in the market.
You know, who's right?
It's not unlike what the early years of
podcasting was, Todd, as you recall,
where every platform had a different way of

(54:23):
counting. Oh, yeah.
And I'm glad I don't have to I
don't I don't have to deal with it.
So
the advertisers
do.
I don't have to deal with it.
Yeah. But if I mean, what's the fallout
from this? I mean, the
The fallout is the creator gets screwed.

(54:44):
That's the fallout. A game for Spotify to
to look like they're more popular than they
really are because No. That the the podcasters
that pulled out said they were being underreported.
That was the problem.
Well,
my understanding is that if you switch out,

(55:05):
the naming
of a start
count
With a play. Play,
that means that there is no disqualifying
click.
So
because currently in the podcast
counting metrics, you have to
play at least a minute of content for
it to be counted. And in my opinion
that number that sixty seconds has always been

(55:27):
too low anyway. But that's a whole another
hour of discussions here. Right. Right. And that's
but
in what Spotify is doing publicly is that
just clicking the button counts. Yeah. Why not?
And and and we have to be fair
and and say YouTube too. Know what, YouTube
is doing. Yeah.
Right? Yeah. YouTube has views

(55:49):
which may be equivalent to
what, Spotify is doing. Yeah. Why not? Play
and that gets counted as a view. Though
I have seen in the back end that
it evaluates
the
the
the viewers.
I think it does have a little bit
of engagement
algorithm
that plays against it because sometimes the numbers

(56:10):
are different
on the website,
publicly than what shows up in the backend
analytics.
And oftentimes what it shows publicly is
less than what it shows in the backend.
And then eventually the front end catches up.
Right.
Which makes me think that maybe there is
some sort of a filtering going on to,

(56:32):
you know,
align those.
So I'm not quite sure, you know, what
that looks like.
But
so there is some games that are being
played publicly with the numbers.
And that's that's where we get back to
it again. Is it IAB? If you look
at the IAB and its current

(56:53):
structure around
its metrics,
standards, it has a different metrics for digital
audio or streaming
than it has for television
than it has for
for podcasts
or for for radio or
or streaming radio. Right? So
I think what we need to do is

(57:13):
as an industry
to better cater to the advertisers is just
kinda
bring them together and make it more make
them more aligned with each other.
But that's that may or may not change
things with Spotify.
But if spots Spotify wants to be a
member of the IAB, they probably need to,
you know, align with whatever

(57:35):
choice the industry makes.
But oftentimes, people will use metrics as a
as a competitive weapon
in the market.
And I believe to some degree, that's what
Spotify is doing right now.
So if they can show higher numbers publicly,
around shows, then

(57:56):
then that is almost like a social
vote. Right? Right. Social confidence vote in a
particular content creator that if if this content
creator is getting a million plays
on Spotify, then Spotify is a big
platform for
that show. Yeah. And
and it maybe is bigger than what their

(58:17):
podcast numbers show.
Well, we definitely had a major
network glitch here,
But things are We're back. Yeah. I'm glad
we're back. We're still alive on YouTube.
We dropped on Facebook. I think I know
what happened. I think,
I think Starlink went sideways for a second.
Oh,

(58:37):
maybe you get caught in a transfer between
satellites or something? Yeah. That's never happened, but
it's there's,
it might have been local here because I
disconnected from my Wi Fi. So I wonder,
probably all my routers need to be rebooted.
Nothing's been
Oh. Been touched.
Yeah. Because now everything's back the way it
should be here.

(58:59):
Very, very odd.
I I I guess at this point,
you know,
the the video narrative is gonna run to
it, run itself out
if it does.
I don't think it's gonna run itself out,
Todd. I think this is this is a

(59:19):
big But but we have to as as
the new landscape. As the new media show,
we need to make sure that,
the audio podcasters know there's a home for
them. There's still an audience
for them. Because the I don't know why
that's in question, Todd. Who's who's questioning that
they're gonna That is that is the that
is the perception.

(59:41):
Mhmm.
You think about it. Think if you were
a brand new
if you were brand new
as a brand new
underestimating
the intelligence of the content. I think if
you are a brand new
creator and again, remember,
we deal with the creators every day of
the week.

(01:00:02):
And if you're brand new
and you're hearing this narrative
about video and you don't wanna do video
and you think you have to do video
because
that's what everybody says, you have to be
have a successful podcast.
And you go over on YouTube, well, you're
just gonna get lost over there and discourage
and quit.

(01:00:22):
And,
again, I think that
we have to do the best job we
can to protect
the narrative about audio and and people being
here and still listening.
That's all.
I think the the only real issue here
is this is that if people
don't consider

(01:00:42):
doing an audio
show or an audio podcast as a as
a viable path forward. I think that that's
the only risk. And and what would cause
that to happen? I think it already is
happening.
No. Well, I
think people have always
seen I'm gonna create a podcast or I'm
gonna create a YouTube show. Right?

(01:01:04):
That distinction has always existed. I don't know
if it does anymore.
Well,
I think most intelligent people would realize that
I have a choice. I can make audio
or I can make a video. Right?
Can I successfully
make audio and video at the same time?
Rob, if all you're doing is googling for

(01:01:25):
information,
you are going to think that you have
to do video.
And audio is not even an alternative. It's
been it's been regulated
to a second class citizen again.
K. But that's not in conflict with being
an RSS based audio podcaster in my view
because

(01:01:45):
those are clearly
two paths to head down. But again because
Apple Apple will actually if Apple comes out
and and builds into their platform the ability
to toggle back and forth between audio and
video.
Oh, to change to change the narrative overnight.
Right. We'll completely change the narrative. And if
you really want to be concerned about the

(01:02:06):
confusion in the market, that's when it will
happen.
Is is because then you start going back
to what podcasting was back in 02/2008, '2
thousand '9, and 02/2010, which was both audio
and video together. We will see
if they do.
And is if Apple makes that choice, is

(01:02:26):
the audio podcast
industry
prepared for the impact? Absolutely.
Only three companies that I know are. Well,
good.
If we're still here.
Yeah. Oh, it's, you know, times I think

(01:02:47):
it's fine to keep pushing the the
emphasis on audio and the power of audio.
Yeah. We have to. I
think that's that's the right choice.
But I think it's also ignorant for us
to think that, video isn't playing a role
here because it is. Oh, I'm I have
no doubt video is playing a role. But
what we have to be cognizant
of
is new podcasters. This people listen to this

(01:03:09):
show. They're like, holy shit, Todd. You know?
But it's it's
what People are probably yelling at the speakers.
That's good. That's fine. It's yell at the
speakers. But here's the thing.
If we want
the podcasting space to survive
as we know it
Well, maybe it shouldn't survive is the way

(01:03:29):
we know it. Well, then guess what? Then
you goodbye and have everyone on YouTube.
Yeah. But, Todd, things don't work like that.
It's gonna evolve. It's always evolved. Right? No.
It's always evolved. Shift But the challenge is
is the the apps have not served the
communities well.
That let's let's point to the real issue

(01:03:50):
here. And the real issue is is that
we haven't
evolved.
We have Spotify isn't great. And
As much as I don't has gotten ahead
of us. As much as I don't like
Spotify,
people love the app.
Right. As much
as
and, of course, YouTube really doesn't have a
great mobile app, in my opinion.

(01:04:10):
It's that's why everyone's watching on a TV
now.
YouTube is on mobile. Oh, you had you
you need to go back and listen to
their last earnings report. That's not the case.
Yeah. It is. TV consumption has
Oh, it's gone up, but it hasn't replaced
mobile.
Oh,
what is

(01:04:31):
the delta?
Currently, the the ranking in consumption, and I
see it even in my own stats,
it goes it goes mobile,
desktop,
and TVs.
That's the that's the distribution in the ranking.
They made a statement. I thought they said
that maybe it had They did that the

(01:04:52):
TV stuff was way up.
YouTube's total of US viewership is more concentrated
on TV sets than on mobile devices.
That's the statement they made. Where's
where does it say that? That was on
a recent earnings report. For
Comcast?
No. For all of YouTube consumption, marking a

(01:05:13):
shift in viewing habits.
This means that while mobile devices may submit
platform, YouTube, the platform has seen a larger
portion of viewership shifting to connect to televisions.
Yeah. They this was announced
in an earnings call.
Just percentage.
Yeah. So that was announced, like, several months

(01:05:35):
ago
that TVs are leading now mobile
and YouTube consumption because of connected TVs.
YouTube CEO, Neil Mohan, announces platform has more
viewers on TVs than mobile devices in The
US.
No longer mobile first.
Really? Yeah.

(01:05:58):
Yeah. That happened
earlier this year.
So, yeah, February
was when the news came out on this.
So
I'm I'm a victim of it.
So
because,

(01:06:19):
again,
there's everyone's got a connected TV now. Everyone's
cut the cord.
No one's listening. No one no one's getting
Fox News, ABC, CBS, NBC, ESPN as a
you know, on their cable networks. People Yeah.
Cut the cord. So what are they doing?
They're on these connected TVs.
So,
of course,

(01:06:39):
consumption
is gonna be massive
because of the massive amount of content
available on the platform.
Thus,
people are getting back in their cars more
now because they're having to do a transit,
so audio listening is back up in that
regard.
Okay, Todd. Okay. There's a distinction in the

(01:06:59):
numbers here
that I just found in Gemini.
And the the
distinction is is that you are correct that,
in The US In The US. Yeah. TVs
have become the primary device
in YouTube. Yeah. But mobile devices still hold
the largest share of YouTube viewership on a

(01:07:21):
global scale. That that makes sense.
Right. Yeah. Because just the country I just
came from, hardly anyone has TVs. They all
have mobile devices.
Yeah. So I think
I mean, essentially, both of us were right
on that. Yeah. Okay. But it depends on
the scale. Right? Yeah. And and I think
then

(01:07:41):
what we have to do and what podcasters
are gonna have to become
AKA audio RSS based podcasters
Mhmm.
Are going to have to figure out how
they're going to succeed and grow, and I
think it's gonna be required them to team
up
and have experiences
that

(01:08:01):
are, you know,
attract audiences
to a specific niche like, you know, ESPN
and what's that other one?
New York, the big sports network.
Ringer, Barstool? Barstool. You know, you know, sports
du jour, and I'm not a sports guy.
You know? Obviously,
ESPN. But

(01:08:21):
you're gonna have to have
some concentration of shows
and an and a either PWA
app experience
or something where
you and it doesn't take a lot of
people. So example, if, you know, if you
are
in a in a niche
segment of content,

(01:08:42):
you are doing yourself a disfavor by not
grouping up with other shows in that niche
and working together to concentrate that audience.
Thus, the explosion that we're seeing in,
podcast networks Yeah. Right now. Yeah. And why
they've become such a a powerful thing in
the media. But most of those come with

(01:09:03):
requirements.
It comes with the commitments,
comes with having to take advertising.
You know, there's a whole set of rules
around that. The purpose of the networks is
to offer those type of services and support.
So but again, there's good networks and there's
bad networks.
So I think individual podcasters should

(01:09:24):
consider,
you know, forming their own networks. And, you
know, so, you know, what I'm looking at
internally,
is basically some tools, and we already have
some stuff built.
Well, you already have a network done. Yes.
I do.
And but the problem is is it's the
the the online experience is not as rich

(01:09:45):
as it needs to be.
It's a basic network. It's got to show
Yeah. I'm not talking about the tech podcast
network. I'm talking about Blueberries. Oh, that's by
the way, that's really not a network. That's
our customer base. In in concept. Yeah.
In in in concept.
And for a while, you actually played that
up with your own directory. Yeah. And we

(01:10:06):
still have,
our customer directory.
And, you know, there's stuff we're gonna do
there too. But, again, if you have to
go tighter
and you have to offer
you know, basically, if you've got let's say
you got 20 shows.
Mhmm. You've gotta get those 20 shows
tied together,
and then you've gotta get them. If they
wanna do live,

(01:10:27):
great. Let's do live within
the ecosystem of the network.
Sure. You can do live on YouTube and
everywhere else you can wanna do live, but
also have this place where we can bring
them bring that audience back to and coalesce
the the content.
I I think it's gonna be

(01:10:48):
it's going to be super critical going forward.
Mhmm.
Again and we've got network tools already, but
my and I've been doing some experiments already
on some sites that are underneath lock and
key,
then I'm just missing elements. You know, I
don't have
everything that I
need to make it a because you gotta

(01:11:10):
get if you're gonna get listeners there, there
has to be some
something yummy to chew on.
Yeah. It can't just be a list of
shows and players, and there has to be
more.
And,
so anyway Todd
community.
Well, it's it's it's a

(01:11:32):
you have to have an entertainment portal is
what you have to have.
Then there has to be stuff going on
that keeps people engaged on the site.
Which takes us into a whole another
realm that was tapped into in that that
revenue chart, which is
the the direct to creator revenue. But it's

(01:11:53):
not only that, but it's also the
people can be live on the site.
People can be in a rotation on the
site.
There's
chat.
There's
all the stuff that goes along with having

(01:12:14):
interactivity,
you know, scheduling
of when people's shows are coming out. All
it's basically like CBS ABC. If you go
to their sites and Yeah. You can see
what's coming up. You need that
from a niche standpoint to because if the
apps aren't gonna do it.
Yeah. I think it's interesting that you said

(01:12:35):
that, Todd, because I've been thinking about that
too. Is it are we heading back
to some of the same models that we
Yeah. That we started.
That that media was kind of scaled? Look
look what we did, Rob, in the beginning.
We built
tech podcasts with, you know, 13 shows,
coalesced content,
coalesced advertising.

(01:12:57):
You know, I think we Live livestream too.
Livestream all that stuff we did in 02/2005,
'2 thousand '6.
It's going back and, again, what's what old
is new again. If you're right, there's a
lot of that going on right now in
my view. You know?
And and and what will this do?

(01:13:18):
Concentrate those niche
audiences.
And it doesn't take a lot. It takes,
you know,
five, eight, nine, 10 thousand active listeners
contributing
to that content,
highly engaged, highly focused.
It's gonna be harder to do if you're
doing a business show.

(01:13:39):
If you're just doing a general business show,
it's gonna be harder because there's there's 10,000
of those.
Yeah. So then the niche folks are gonna
have a lot easier.
Or going back to stuff that you've wanted
to do for years is local.
Mhmm. That's, you know,
Fred,
Adam's site, Fred,
what is it called?

(01:14:01):
Fred is it fred. Fm?
Yeah. I was talking yeah. I had
lunch with Steven Goldstein,
just
yesterday. And that that's something he said too,
is that he he thinks that there's still
a huge opportunity
for local
podcast content.
Sir, what is the

(01:14:22):
oh my god. What is this site? He's
someone It's his marketing. It's called hello for
Sir. It's called hello, Fred.
Hello
Fred.
Yes.
Let's see here.
In Fred, Michigan? No. Fredericksburg, Texas.
Okay.

(01:14:42):
Let me see if I can find the
website.
Oh my god. Someone's gotta help me out
and chat here. Someone knows.
It must be tough to have a entertaining
program, but still have it be backfilled or
more informative than entertaining.

(01:15:05):
K.
Someone deleted a message. I'm
where is this website?
Is it hellofred.fm?
Let me look.
So what is this
hello fred thing again? Why don't you I've
gotta find it.
Okay. Here is,

(01:15:26):
Hello, Fred.
And it's got a live stream,
and it's got a series of podcast.
Mhmm. And it's just a PWA,
and it plays a live stream, has breaks
for news.
And, again, it's, you know, what you would
think in a community. It would has a,

(01:15:48):
you know, capital report. It has some religion.
You know, it's got, some news on what's
going on in the community.
So, basically, this is just
a just a site for Fredericksburg,
and
they play twenty four seven,
live stream. And then when they have a
they have podcasts, they're playing in the in

(01:16:10):
the schedule.
But, again, this is just an example
of
of the things that they've got going on.
They've got a they've got the playlist of
what's coming up.
And screen is blank.
Yeah. Oh, well, that's nice.
There you go. I'm chopping again. What happened?

(01:16:30):
Did I yeah. I disconnected from the Wi
Fi. What the hell?
Yeah. I I need to do a complete
reboot of my
of my system here because
why are you disconnecting from the I'm I'm

(01:16:51):
supposed to be hardwired here. Let me
let me turn this off
and see if I come back.
Oh my god. I don't know what's going
on.
Yeah.
Rob died off the off the network too.

(01:17:26):
Well, isn't that interesting? So let me go
to this camera,
and everything is frozen.
Well, you know, this is what happens
when things sit still for,
a a month
or or longer.
My goodness. Come on, Todd.

(01:17:49):
We'll go to local wired.
Is that input working again? Yeah. There we
go. Let's go back to one.
Alright.
So that's up. Oh, Rob's back. Yeah. There
must be something. It's just the network here.
Something's going on.
Yeah.

(01:18:10):
I put you on another network while you
were, you while you were away.
I didn't even have to move. Thanks, Todd.
Yeah. So I guess I'm back. So let's
go back to m e one.
Alright. Now we're split screen again.
Yeah.
So

(01:18:33):
it's it's it's just really I think, again,
I think we beat a dead horse here,
but I think there's this opportunity
to,
and again, go listen to podcast podcast
movement. Oh my god. Podcasting two point o,
episode 2,015,
16, and 17.
Yeah. There's another example of this. It's called

(01:18:55):
Citycast. I think we've mentioned it before,
on the on the show, and they've been
trying to
do this in kind of medium sized markets
around the country
to try and build a, you know, a
content news type thing. It's really built around
kind of an NPR model. Mhmm. And

(01:19:15):
and I I hear it's
it's
having a tough time.
Yeah. Because much yeah. I'm not sure that
that NPR model
works anymore. I think that caters to an
older demographic.
I I think you have to have a
someone that's passionate about a community.
You have to have someone that is,

(01:19:38):
I guess, for a better word,
Connected to the community. And willing to, you
know, if you have a 2,000,
three thousand listeners in a local community, you
can sell local advertising.
Yeah. You know? Same model that the local
radio stations. Yeah. Because radio is figured out
that the the digital stuff is

(01:20:00):
is going away.
So why my clock is all weird. Stream
the stream says it's been going for two
hours and sixteen minutes, which we know is
not true.
So, Todd, did you just say that the
radio folks have figured out that the radio
is going away? Oh, yeah.
Yeah. And, you know, they gotta make the
transition to digital.

(01:20:24):
Yeah. And, you know, I
there's a whole business opportunity
there too.
Yeah. But they're not stupid. They know what
they're doing.
Well, the question is
probably not all of them are gonna survive.
Oh, that's for sure.

(01:20:44):
There are you know,
there's just not enough room in the market
for all of them to to do what
they do. Mhmm.
That's an unfortunate
message.
I have no idea what has happened today.
Well,

(01:21:05):
maybe we should call it a day. Call
it a day, then I can, reboot the
entire,
ecosystem here.
And,
yeah, there's it's just very, very odd
because because
what it is is the STARLINK is connected
to,
a Unifi router.

(01:21:25):
And so the Wi Fi should never go
down just because even if Starlink goes down,
the network should stay up. But that is
not what's been happening here. The network's been
and
the reason I can tell that is because
the cameras are on the network.
And when the network freezes,
then
everything goes sideways. So Yeah. But we have

(01:21:47):
a master recording,
so I'll probably replace the live recording with
the master recording.
Of course, it'll
show our glitches anyway.
Oh, yeah. Okay.
Next week, I'll be in London, so no
show unless you wanna do one in your
own.
Okay.
And then back the following week.
And

(01:22:09):
should be interesting to, have that conversation
of how that show went.
See if it's industry, if it's got lots
of podcasters. I'm hoping to come back and
have good news
that lots of podcasters.
What's the dates of the podcast show again?
It's,
2122.

(01:22:29):
'20 '1 '20 '2. Okay. Yep.
And, I fly out Monday night, get in
midmorning on the twentieth if I can get
through,
Newark, and then, come back,
the twenty fourth. So I get a couple
of days to explore London. I have my
list.
Gonna go see Churchill's

(01:22:49):
property, and I'm gonna go to try to
do two museums.
We will see the Churchill things at all
day affair.
And, a little tricky to get there when
you don't have a car.
Just getting the right train out there, that's
the key. Buses and trains are how I
got around with it too. Yeah. Yeah. All
you need is your iPhone, Todd.

(01:23:10):
And your American Express card.
Well, I suppose that's To tap the tube,
$12 all day long. Well, you can use
your
actually,
you can actually just use your phone. Oh,
that'll work too. Okay.
Mhmm. Yeah. That's how I did it. Alright.
I just scanned my phone. I able to
go everywhere.
Well, sorry for the technical glitches today.

(01:23:31):
You know, thought we'd be back and be
good, but,
yeah, I guess, I should have receipt I
should have just shut everything off and let
it restart it, but,
we'll do that next.
But,
thanks. [e-mail],
unmasked on at geek news
on x. Rob?
At rob greenley on x as well as

(01:23:54):
LinkedIn,
Facebook,
Instagram.
Actually, I changed my handle on TikTok. Now
I'm at at Rob Greenlee. How did you
change that?
It gave me the option to to change
it from what I had. Oh.
I actually made, I made that change last
night because my
name was like Rob Greenlee podcaster.

(01:24:14):
It used to be. So it was, I
just changed it to just Rob Greenlee.
So I was able to do that over
there. And plus, you know, I have a
website, Robgreenley.com.
Also, you can find me over there. And
if you wanna send an email, send it
rob dot
greenley
or [e-mail].
Both of them go to the same email

(01:24:35):
inbox or as separate? Yeah. Oh, okay. Good.
Alright, everybody. Thanks for being here and, yeah.
Glitch city. I guess it,
it's follow me home.
Yeah.
Good luck. Alright, everybody. Take care. Thanks for
being here. Bye. Bye.