New Media Show – Is this the End?

In the episode titled “New Media Show – Is this the End,” hosts Todd Cochrane and Rob Greenlee discuss the state of the podcasting industry, particularly in light of recent changes and trends. Todd opens the conversation with a metaphor about everything being “on fire” in the podcasting space, emphasizing a sense of urgency and … Continue reading New Media Show – Is this the End? →

The post New Media Show – Is this the End? appeared first on New Media Show.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Fire at Strapping Week.
We won't talk about casting.
Talk about they're gonna take it down.
From tips to tricks and everything in

(00:23):
Pod, pod, pod on fire. Are we on
fire, Rob? Welcome to the new media show.
I thought it would be appropriate entry for
today.
Right.
Everything's burning down. Is that what you're saying,
Tom? Well, it might be the end.
Right.
Right.
Well, Well, I think that's
the that's the feeling that I'm sensing in

(00:46):
the medium right now.
Well, I don't know if it's the n.
You know? But, you know, there's a lot
of people that are worried.
That's what happens when change hits. Right?
It's but it's, you know, it's itself it's
what it's what it is, it's,
self induced,

(01:07):
you know? Know? Well, yeah. To an extent.
I suppose so. Yeah. I mean, I think
people's perceptions
are what's driving it. Yeah. And and I
and, you know, it's kinda funny because,
you know, obviously, just getting back from London
and,
I I wrote a piece on a on

(01:27):
podcasternews.com
and also put something up on LinkedIn. And,
I don't wanna throw the baby out with
the bathwater. I yeah. Because I think it's,
you know, it's it's, it's too too early
to,
to even, you know. I think what really
needs to happen

(01:48):
is
that we need to remember
that audio podcasting
still has
an incredibly large
audience.
And, you know, we have great growth.
We still have,
you know, overseas and every places are are
still growing.

(02:09):
But, you know, this little video thing, this
little video conversation has
has, you know, got everyone a little freaked
out.
And,
you know, I was,
in my my takeaway
was a couple of things. And, you know,
I had,
the folks from Apple were at

(02:32):
the podcast show,
in force,
and they,
they spoke for the first time.
Yeah. I saw that. And they talked about
02/2004 was was up there. Yeah. And 02/2004
was the biggest year ever.
They paid homage to Open RSS.
They talked about other apps than Apple Podcasts

(02:54):
in their
homage
to Open RSS.
And,
you know, basically said, hey.
Remember,
you know, we we were responsible for bringing
this medium,
to the point that it is today,
you know, starting twenty years ago. And, you
know, and I, you know,

(03:15):
that I'm interpreting a little bit, so,
don't shoot me Apple team.
Yeah. It's hard to argue with that point.
Yeah. And, you know, I had a conversation
with the with the group, and it's it's
it's not nothing. It's, you know, confidential. They
they they listen to a lot of people.
I
I I just can only imagine.

(03:37):
You know, you probably feel like a punching
bag after you get done talking to 20
companies or whatever they, you know, total number.
But, you know, I I I made the
point. I said, listen.
We need some cheerleaders
for audio.
And to for people to understand the value
of audio has not changed. The value of

(03:59):
audio is still
valuable
that, you know, that there is,
there is a segment
of the population,
that listens and watches and that Mhmm. We
shouldn't be
you know, we needed some cheerleaders.
And and I want you guys to be
a cheer and there's a great opportunity here.

(04:20):
June,
will be twenty years since the introduction of
podcasting in iTunes.
So great great time to be able to
make a splash.
That said,
you know, you can, you know, you can
you can make suggestions,
and you never know which way the wind's
gonna flow.

(04:41):
In confidence, a couple of things was asked
of me about some stuff, and I gave
my feedback. And,
you know, I have a I understand that
the wheels move slow
over there. Yeah. And, you know, what we
want today, we won't see for a year
or two years. That's just kinda the way
it is.
And maybe we won't see it at all,

(05:03):
and that's alright.
But I I think in the end,
we just need more advocates that are talking
to content creators to say, hey. It's okay.
It's okay to start with audio.
You know, there's nothing wrong with starting with
audio, but

(05:24):
the
there is a trend
that I'm hearing
again and again and again and again. And
it really kinda came to light at in
London even more.
I kept being asked, should I do video?
Should I be doing video? Should I do
video? I don't wanna do video. Should I

(05:45):
do video? And people were asking my opinion.
And these are relatively
new creators,
and, you know, typically a year or two
years, you know, to that range.
And I and I said, listen. I said,
I've been doing video for fifteen years, but
it's not,
it's not everything.
Audio is important.

(06:06):
I said, you know,
ease into it if you want to. But
the main
objections really rolled down to
and and I heard this more there than
I've heard anywhere else. It was the women
were saying, I don't wanna be
on video.
Because of privacy issues, I'm like, well, you

(06:27):
know, some people, if your show is talking
about private personal nature where you don't wanna
have your face exposed, then probably video is
not for you. And if you're doing a
show that's more adapted to video, maybe it
works for you. You know? So I say
you have to make that decision.
But one thing was for sure, there was
a huge,

(06:47):
huge, huge, huge,
huge
contingencies
of studios and
networks there.
Mhmm. And
they were all trying to dig any of
everyone's pocket to get business, production business, and
Yeah.
Video production business.
Mhmm.
You know? And we'll help you with your

(07:08):
video strategy,
and the prices on that was extra extraordinary.
I you know, here I am in my
booth,
and right across from me is Canon.
And Canon has a
video studio setup with three cameras,
microphones,
everything. Of course, they have, you know, $1,800

(07:29):
microphones,
in their studio. They've got $12,000
cameras in each position.
They've got thousand dollar and I'm like,
you're scaring people,
Canon.
People don't have 50 or a hundred thousand
dollars to set up a professional studio unless
they're

(07:49):
very high end
Yeah. You know, well watched show.
So there was a couple other vendors there
that had lower cost items, but, you know,
they're all doing the math and they're saying,
okay.
I've got my hundred dollar microphone. I've got
my RodeCaster.
I've got an investment of about a thousand
bucks into my audio production.

(08:09):
Now I gotta add camera, switcher,
and what does that look like? You
know, you don't look don't look here.
You know?
Because
yeah. You know. You're
an example of that. Yeah. Yeah. Don't years.
Yeah. Don't don't look here.

(08:29):
Right. You know? So Yeah. Yeah. So I
think in, you know, the money
and the time. Time was the big thing
too was,
for the late the guys didn't care,
about being on video.
They were worried about the the cost and
the time commitment.
Those were the three main concerns.

(08:51):
And then,
you know, feeling like they're the the if
they're getting this feeling like they're being pushed,
they're being pushed by the industry
through everything it's being talked about.
So, yeah, that that discussion is just gonna
continue,
you know Yeah. The way it is. But

(09:13):
I think what we have to be careful
of and I guess the Buzzsprout guys had
some I didn't listen to their episode.
I think James did something on Pod News
Daily or I heard there was three or
or four podcasts that were basically, you know,
London Bridge's, you know, is falling down. You
know? That, you know, and where's the audio

(09:34):
discussion going? But, hello. Where have you been?
You know, I I think I've been the
only one that's been talking about the audio
space being flat. No one else has been
willing to say anything.
So I'm not sure that there's a lot
of honesty flying around in the podcast space
right now as far as what's happening in
the market. So I think that's part of

(09:56):
it too.
There's people that, you know, have
an outcome that they would like to see
happen here. But but the RSS That's what's
driving a lot of this conversation about it.
Yeah. The RSS.com
guy is there. Transistor was there. Acast was
there. The we all kinda met,
you know, even run into folks, chit chatting.

(10:17):
There's no
those folks are real active.
They're they're not in a panic.
You know, they they're you know, I how's
business? Business is okay.
Business ain't great. Business is okay. So, you
know, from that perspective, I'm,
you know, I'm confident that, you know, that
there's there's no danger in some of the

(10:38):
major companies going out.
I I think smaller companies are
are are impacted or be gonna be impacted.
But I again, you know, I we had
a board meeting last night, and I and,
basically, we're talking about financials and everything that's
going on with us.
May looks better than January.
So,

(10:58):
you know, I'll I'll just say that.
It doesn't look as good as I want
it to be, but June you know, basically,
almost into June, June's looking better than it
was in January.
So,
from that perspective,
you know, and we're, you know, we're also
being proactive too. So it's

(11:20):
I don't know. That's exactly what you should
do. Alright. But but at the same time,
we I was taking the point of taking
show names now
of people that were
already in YouTube.
I just you know? And I probably there
was maybe 20

(11:42):
that I talked to. They had YouTube channels,
and
and I went and looked the shows up,
and
nothing extraordinary.
Hundred hundred views,
maybe top 65
on episodes.
So, again, I think there's a divide.
There's probably three tiers.

(12:02):
You know, there's probably the people that are
doing a little, a little more, and doing
great.
And I think that's the way it is
in audio podcasting too. There's a little little
medium, a little more.
So And also to add a add another
layer to that, there's
those that are audio first, those that are
video first,

(12:23):
and then there are those that are doing
a hybrid strategy of doing video and audio.
So
there's three tiers of content creators too, and
each content creator has to decide
which path
do they wanna go. But it And I
think this this binary choice between
doing doing audio
or doing video is kinda missing

(12:45):
a piece here. And
the video part doesn't have to be, you
know, a hundred thousand dollar investment.
No. Oh, it doesn't. No. No. But that's
that's that's what's being talked about in the
context, well, it's too expensive. It's too
it's actually not. And
and the only reason people are saying that
is because they wanna dissuade people from doing

(13:07):
video. No. I don't say it's I I
say it's it is gonna be some cost.
You are gonna have to have Of course.
You're gonna have to buy webcam.
You're gonna have to buy lights.
You're gonna have to have a camera of
sorts.
Well, you don't have to buy lights, but
You're not gonna have it. Depends on what
your recording environment is. If you do it

(13:28):
in front of a window
Uh-huh. That can give you natural light,
that's possibility
too. And you you you can do your
show completely on your iPhone or on your
Android device. You don't even have to go
out and buy a new camera.
So Again, I think they're seeing the examples
of content
and Right. Understanding they're going to have to

(13:48):
invest. And that investment That's
that's a deeper discussion here, which is actually,
podcasting and what's happening, what we're seeing on
the video side is professionalizing.
Right? Which means that there are companies
or
shows that are becoming media companies. I mean,
we all have to accept that

(14:10):
podcasting
and YouTube
is
the media now. Right? And those expectations I
don't agree with that at all.
Well, I it's a portion
of the it's a portion of the media.
Well, okay, Todd.
YouTube is getting more
views on video content now than all of

(14:33):
the other networks. Oh, I I I understand
that. Streaming platform. But but, Rob, you you're
taking it at a macro level.
Okay. No. I'm not. I'm actually look looking
at it from what's actually happening globally with
video. Again, but understand if you are the
average Joe podcaster
so the thing is you you you're looking
at these top top ends. Again, we have

(14:54):
to focus on the regular podcaster.
The the right to focus on that, Todd.
That's what we're choosing to do. Well, we
have to There's a factor here that that
that the individual
So here individual content creator that's creating a
show,
right, the landscape for media distribution,

(15:15):
monetization,
marketing,
PR, promotion,
growing an audience
is is becoming
professionalized.
And the shows that are growing in scale
and reach and audience,
even on the audio side, it's gravitating
towards larger shows. So you made my point
exactly. So here's the I'm not So here's

(15:36):
That's kinda my bigger point, Todd, is that
we're we're not actually looking at what's happening
in the market. So here's the issue.
Right. No new creators are coming in.
No new creators are coming in. Change what's
happening in the market. Okay. Well, I'm just
telling you that this type of discussion
I get it. This type of discussion is

(15:57):
what's causing creators to say, I don't wanna
do it. It's too much work.
Well, it's because there's a certain amount of
fear factoring that's going in. There's not fear
factoring. That it's if you do video, it's
gonna be overwhelming. No. No. No. No. It's
no. It's too much. Nope. Nope. Nope. That's
not the conversation.
That's what I'm hearing. Well, the conversation is

(16:17):
I'm being told I have to do video.
I don't wanna do video, but if I
have to do video, I'm not gonna do
anything.
Yeah. People are not starting
because of this narrative you have to do
video.
So here's what the problem is gonna be.
Why is that happening, Todd? We have to
have we have to have That's the next
follow-up question here. We have to have Why

(16:38):
is that perception
in the marketplace? We have to have
the ability for someone that's new
to be able to come in and build
a show
and feel like they have a chance of
success.
Nobody's stopping them, Todd. That's the narrative that
they're feeling.
Where is where is the market

(17:00):
shifting towards, Todd, is the is the bigger
question.
If people are getting that perception, then
that's kind of on them. There's a
a misunderstanding Then and then in you told
me it was fear mongering on the last
show. It is. Then in then in five
years
then in five years,
audio podcasting will be gone.

(17:22):
No. It won't. Oh, it'll be it'll be
so diminished.
No one will be left in five years.
Todd, but you also Because I publicly no,
Todd. You you also state publicly
on your own social media
that audio podcast listening is bigger than ever.
Absolutely. So it can't be both. Okay. The
reason it can't dying

(17:42):
and being Okay. The reason it can't bigger
than ever at the same time. The reason
it can be both because no new
new
creators are not entering.
Yeah. But that doesn't mean that the medium
is dying. Okay. So what will happen is
is over time,
again, five years over time
Okay. You'll see a drop off of all

(18:04):
the smaller shows.
And anyone under 10,000 downloads,
they'll be gone.
And there'll be just a small number,
a very small number
of successful audio and video shows, and the
rest will be a wasteland
because because, again,
there is the perception

(18:25):
by new creators
that this is too hard.
It's too hard to break out, too hard
to build an audience.
Todd, I've been around this medium long enough
to know
what the pathways have been on on this.
There was a time in the
maybe ten years ago
that this conversation was happening around

(18:46):
storytelling podcasts and true crime.
You know? And it was the same dialogue.
Right? It was, oh, those productions are too
expensive and too difficult to do, and it's
gonna
it it's changing the the podcast
landscape. Right? People are going to have to
have all these big budgets to produce these

(19:07):
highly produced audio series programs. No. They That's
what the expectation of the market There was
high they do have a high budget.
Well, you know, what's happening right now is
that those those
those productions are not finding a market anymore,
really.
They're they're having struggles getting funded
because everything has shifted over to monetization

(19:30):
focus.
And it's difficult to monetize a
storytelling podcast, a true crime podcast. It's because
it's intrusive to have mid roll ads in
it and things like that. So there are
structural things that happen in the in the
medium that change the narrative. Right? And that
narrative is happening again,

(19:50):
and it just happens to be focused on
video. And you and I both know that
video and podcasting ever been writing tandem with
each other since 02/2005.
But at the same but but at the
same
point This isn't a big surprise to me,
and it shouldn't be to you. So maybe
so maybe in two or three years, the
fad will wear off, and maybe we'll be
okay.

(20:10):
Yeah. I think that that audio podcasting
is still
strong. Right? I think we both acknowledge that
audio podcasting is still growing. Audience is still
growing. It just so happens right now that
people are gravitating
increasingly over to
larger shows are getting larger. Yeah. And that's
part of my bigger Uber trend that I

(20:31):
see in the market of the professionalization
of podcasting.
And as we saw mainstream media kind of
decline and fall off
and lose their influence,
guess what? That talent is moving over to
podcasting,
and they're carving up more and more of
the audience. And I agree with you 100%.
That is a threat to independent

(20:52):
individual creators.
I I think though that we need to
I think it's a simple solution.
They're just people need to start getting on
the messaging.
Right. Marketing and everything.
That audio is still a viable medium. It's
not going anywhere. We're still good.
If we No. I think that's a good

(21:14):
good
good discussion point, but
I think where it goes sideways is is
we kinda demonize video. I'm not demonizing video.
I just That's what's been going on. I
don't think so.
Yeah. It's like saying video's bad. No. People
don't We're doing video here for really wanna
do video because there's all these issues. If

(21:34):
you're if you're 18 to 35, you wanna
do video. But, again, there is a segment
of the market
that doesn't wanna do video
that feel they're being forced to.
Right. But you don't demonize
an option that is
part of the landscape of podcasting, I don't
think anyway. Let's let's approach this proactively and

(21:56):
say,
it's okay to be an audio first creator.
It's okay to be a video first creator.
It's okay to do a hybrid strategy.
And it's and let's push the success of
the medium
to those that wanna create the kind of
content that they wanna create and not play
one side against the other, which is I
think is what's going on right now. And
I I don't like it because it it's

(22:18):
not playing into what my experience in the
medium is right now. Yeah. Well, I'm I'm
on the ground talking with creators every day.
You know? So
I can only tell you too. I do
calls all all day with people all around
the world. But I can tell you the
mindset
of new creators. This is what I'm hearing
from
new creators.

(22:38):
So maybe that's just a subset.
Again
Well, that's that's one part of the industry,
but there's also this whole other side of
the industry that is that is already professionalized.
Right?
And they're driving this change. Right?
Those things are successful A lot of the
monetization pieces are driving that. Right.

(22:59):
Those successful
media companies, I would profess
increasingly that's what we're seeing happen. And that's
why I I take it back to this
conversation that what we're seeing is professionalization
of podcasting,
which does tend to
move the industry towards a smaller number of
shows, which may be antithetical to where podcasting

(23:19):
started as being in an open
open landscape. And this is where
it's so important now that they
the, podcast standards project gets its legs
and really starts to drive innovation into RSS
because that's the that's the pathway to us
maintaining what we have

(23:40):
because we are seeing a shift into a
professionalization, which drives more attention to smaller numbers
of shows into these big platforms.
But that's being driven based on what audience
is doing, and I know that there's a
feeling out there that
creators
are causing this to happen or someone else
is responsible for this. No. It's the audience

(24:01):
is what's driving this shift.
You know, I'd you know, I'll just say
I wish the PSP could move faster.
I know. I do too. I do too.
And I I think they're on the right
track. It's just You know, and, you know,
there was a few comments from a couple
of people at a couple of meetings. I
was just kinda like, they don't even
know
what's going on.

(24:22):
You know? They it's they it it feel
like
Yeah.
Yeah. You know, I I think it's just
here you know, in the end, it goes
back to
I you you know, Blueberry, Buzzsprout,
RSS dot com,
you know, all the folks that are playing
Transistor
is playing in the podcasting two point o
space.

(24:43):
We we can do what we can do,
but unless the apps follow, then it's,
you know It's tough. It's tough.
So, you know, Pocket Cash just introduced,
you know, PodRoll basically made that available. So
the you know, little little inroads here and
there. Yeah.
In in the end, it's you know, I
I there's this

(25:04):
was a semi discussion around video, and,
my point was
we don't need HLS.
You know, everyone talks we need HLS. We
need HLS. I said,
it's been working
all the way up to this point with
m p
four. If someone wants to cache, take the,

(25:25):
you know, take the median cache it and
create an HLS stream. That's great.
But HLS is so a
a a stream versus a download is really
what you're talking about. It's it's it all
feels the same to the audience. They don't
know they're getting HLS stream or an m
p four. They don't know the difference.
Well, the question gets back to is the

(25:47):
the performance of the video. It's again, with
the way modern connectivity is today, they they
don't know the difference.
The majority of people don't.
Well, I noticed that there's a difference
with the video.
So
there can be some latency on the clock.
I think what will end up happening is
HLS

(26:07):
is not gonna be delivered,
at the price of podcast hosting. No way.
Because of the cost involved in in HLS
streaming.
It just won't. But it's right now, even
to spin your own solution up, it's it's
incredibly expensive
to do it on a you know, that
bandwidth is is really, really high.
And, you know, the advantage Google has with

(26:29):
YouTube is they have all their own pipes.
They have all their infrastructure. They're interconnected with
data centers.
So for them, this is, you know, they
they they put the money into dark fiber,
and, you know, they don't have to worry
about this
cost situation.
But when you get down to an individual
host in

(26:49):
platform
My comeback to that is that by not
doing HLS, we're we're shifting
more control over to the big
big,
consumption plan. Again, we've been serving video
for fifth since the beginning here with no
issue, no complaints from the consumption audience.

(27:10):
So,
you know, HLS, if we figure out a
way to do it that's not so expensive,
great. Maybe.
Maybe. Maybe. All these platforms are not gonna
Apple would be the exception and probably Pocket
Cast.
They're all going to want to support,

(27:30):
a central
distribution of
HLS
streams.
If if we're gonna maintain that kind of
central hosting capability
into all the platforms, whether it be Apple
or Spotify or what whatever,
that is,
as we look to the future, that is
our leverage in the Well, those those apps

(27:50):
are not making any money to begin with.
So I don't know how, you know, HLS
is gonna have to be delivered on their
side.
They're gonna have to cash the shifting the
the burden of the distribution
over to the the consumption platforms, and that's
antithetical to the future of ourselves. Again,
I wouldn't be against someone taking video and

(28:12):
caching it and serving as HLS as long
as they sent the signal back.
Considering, you know, I do that. I know
what the math is on this. So,
you know, you're not gonna get
a host
to provide HLS video streams
at what people will consider an acceptable price
to pay

(28:32):
for that delivery.
If they're willing to pay for the delivery,
great. We can do HLS,
but
hold on to your wallet.
It's not cheap. That's the that's the thing.
Even if you build your own infrastructure.
See, Todd, I think we have to think
about this. How can I how can I
okay? I can do it right today. What
does this look like in the future

(28:54):
is the question. Well, the question then is
the the real question is,
if and I don't know if there's an
answer for this.
If people want to here's you know, here's
the thing I said to Apple.
If you have video
on
make video of first class citizen on Apple
Podcasts, everyone will wanna have video on Apple

(29:16):
Podcasts.
That's simple. Mhmm. Oh, I agree with that.
They want it. They'll they'll say they'll call
me tomorrow and say, I want video on
on, on Apple Podcasts.
A certain segment will pay that price. If
they want HLS, they're gonna pay that price
for that bill
to have that media go to to Apple.
Some won't because it's free at YouTube. It's

(29:37):
free at Spotify.
And why is it free, Todd? Because they
have huge infrastructure. They control the ecosystem.
And they monetize.
But
yeah. And that's the price of admission.
And that's why and there was another discussion.
Podcasters are so pissed off about content being
monetized around their content

(29:57):
that they're starting to think, do I need
to pull off
Spotify? I'm like, hey. It's your decision if
you wanna be there or not. I had
about five conversations around that.
Yeah.
And, of course, people were not educated
on the
video overlap and the audio thing. That's a
whole another that's a whole another discussion. Well,
and then the whole conversation around

(30:21):
dynamic insertion
of sponsored
messages into video. Yeah. Not not I mean,
we haven't progressed to that conversation yet. It's
not that complicated. You just gotta implement it.
No. I know it's not. But but podcasting
really has no connection to video monetization.
No.
I mean,
other than baked
in hostels.

(30:42):
And again,
now, Keith, go back to a stat I've
said for years and years and years, 90%
of podcasters
will not ever need to rebuild their video
or audio.
10% will. But the other 90%,
there's no need.
So when you say rebuild, what does that
mean? Yeah. If if you're doing it manually,

(31:02):
which would be nuts on video. But
Doing oh, you mean putting ads in? Yeah.
If you change the ads out. Yeah. Okay.
Using DVI
on
Yeah. On video. You know? 90% of shows
won't need it anyway. But,
again, I I think
so, you know, so so what happens? Let's
just do a hypothetical here.

(31:24):
If,
and again, this is wishful thinking.
What if,
Apple says, oh, yeah. We're gonna support video.
Make it a first class citizen.
We'll cache your m p four, change it
into HLS, and serve it. Now, you know,
I think the majority of people would say,
yay,
because of the cost involved. I think there's
a lot of hosts that are scared about

(31:45):
the video hosting cost.
I know what it costs to deliver m
p four stuff. You know, it's very simple.
You know, size of file by the your
gigabit price. It's easy math solution. It's simple
math.
And,
HLS, that's
a a tier four, five, 10 higher in
cost.

(32:05):
So
if if Apple did that, which again,
you know, that's just Todd talking.
If they give me a ping back and
said, hey. Sure. Play happened.
Hey. We're good. We can we can measure
it, and we can,
we we can do well with it. But
what do you give up? You give up
the ability to,

(32:26):
you know, there's a monetization issue,
there's no pass through. So there's all these
problems. So
if you decide, okay, we're gonna serve at
HLS,
there's a there's there's a trade off.
You know, if they cache it, change it
to HLS costs zero. If you wanna have
HLS streaming and you wanna be able to

(32:48):
to place ads in it and you wanna
do all this stuff, you're gonna pay. And
it's gonna be big,
not gonna be small.
You know, you Well, I've heard, Todd, I've
heard conflicting information from hosts out there,
about the cost of HLS.
I've heard people tell me, and then I

(33:08):
hear other people tell me,
some people tell me that it's not that
expensive if you have HLS on your own
infrastructure. You have to have that. Expensive if
you outsource
it to, like, an Amazon services or Yeah.
If you have to build your own infrastructure,
there is significant overhead
on all those servers to do that. Absolutely.

(33:29):
It can be built on your own infrastructure.
But again,
you are still state you are still
you you're paying for that infrastructure,
which will not be inexpensive.
I look at Compared to what, Todd? Everything.
You know, audio is simple,
you know, as compared to video from a
you you know, audio is a no brainer

(33:50):
from a serving standpoint.
But if you wanna look at think to
be
to be fair about it is
the cost of audio hosting have plummeted.
But if you wanna do
video Right. It's at least a factor of
25 or 30 in cost. No. I'm I'm
not hearing that, Todd, from other people that
I talk to. Okay. Then they're not moving.

(34:14):
Oh, it's all about moving big scale.
That's how you get the lower cost. Right.
On HLS, you would be doing your own
because that's the only way you can do
it and
even probably make it even effective from a
cost standpoint. We priced it out. We did
the math on it and seen what how
many servers we're gonna need
just to host the shows we have now.

(34:35):
I I I have to come in and
and charge it a much much much much
higher rate.
So you're talking to CDNs?
You don't want if you're gonna do HLS,
you're gonna go through a CDN. You're gonna
oh my god.
You have to be your own CDN. You
have to build your own infrastructure if you're
gonna do HLS.
Okay. So you have to actually physically own

(34:56):
the servers. Well, you have you've spin them
up in AWS,
you know, and yeah. So that's a that
that's essentially a CDN type of infrastructure. Really.
CDN is a a centralized distribution network. You
you go from you want to forget what
it is. One to 500 different sites. We're
talking about if you're gonna do HLS as
a hosting provider, you're gonna have, you know,

(35:16):
four, five, a dozen server.
Right. Yeah. Dedicated servers that are on
either your own co located facility or in
a least co located facility. Oh, it's gonna
be in it's gonna be in AWS or
whatever. You're not gonna put a server in
a in a facility anymore. No one does
that.
Hard iron. Very few people do that.

(35:37):
Yeah. Well But you still I believe it.
You still you still have outbound. You got
that outbound bandwidth that happens. You got the
cost of the server. You got the cost
of the overhead to do the encoding, all
that stuff.
Yeah. It's it's it's a price.
Well, then the cost of audio podcast hosting
has not gone up either. Right? No. No.

(35:59):
But everything else around the cost thing is
okay. This is the problem.
Yeah. This is the point. My bandwidth costs
are the same, but my insurance,
my health care Oh, I get that. Yeah.
Yeah. No. No. That's all
separate from what we're talking about here. But
It's not because the cost of hosting has
gone up, just the price hasn't increased.

(36:22):
As you know. Right. Yeah. So
if you look at what's been happening in
the economy for the last four years, everything
has gone up, you know, even you know,
even your podcast host bill.
To 30%.
Except for There's gotta be a reason for
that. What's the reason for that? Except why
hasn't podcast hosting went up?
But every you know, believe it or not,
it was a it was a discussion. It

(36:42):
was be no collusion. I would have answered.
Right? And I always tell the people, I
encourage you to go.
You go. I will follow.
You know? No. You just
don't wanna be the first one. Yeah. Yeah.
You don't wanna be the first. No. I
don't wanna be the first. Now too.
Right. Yeah. Some at some point, someone's gonna
have to go. Have to.

(37:02):
No choice. Yeah. Have to.
I can't I cannot absorb
because, you know, how we were able to
do it before, you you you basically
had this trade off.
The bandwidth cost went lower,
and, you know, you were able to have
this spread.
Well, now,
this is what's happening. You're at the bottom

(37:24):
on bandwidth, and now the, you know, now
the margin's coming down much, much tighter.
And,
yeah. Something has to give. Has to.
Yeah.
You know, I I can't say that we
would be able to go
you know, I'd hate to even predict, but
at some point, there's gonna have to be

(37:45):
a price increase. Has to be.
Well, Todd, if you back up and you
look at the total market
for
the podcast infrastructure, right,
and what's
and looking at individual companies in the medium,
there's always been a subset
of
hosting infrastructure companies for podcasting that have catered

(38:07):
to
kind of the higher end of the market.
Right? So you think about, like, an r
19 or They had a sales team. Yeah.
Yeah. Megaphone
or you think about, you know, these these
platforms that really catered to Yeah. And they've
had yeah. They were Top tier. Well, they
had a bunch of acquisitions, and they acquired
sales teams. And yeah. So they all have

(38:28):
some They built
kind of sales organizations
around those organizations.
They've built in robust per programmatic advertising. So
the market's been shifting
this way for many years towards catering
to higher
higher volume
larger
podcast, larger shows. But at the same time,

(38:49):
some of those larger shows are now being
asked to pay.
Well,
Oh, there's there's there's a few. I don't
know that that is I wouldn't make a
generalization
on that, Todd. I think it gets back
to the most of the those bigger professional
networks are

(39:09):
doing revenue shares,
that is paying for the infrastructure.
So But that margin is getting I talked
to all of them. I know. But that
margin's getting tighter, and there are more
If you're not a super big show, you're
you're paying
these days.
Oh, yeah. That's a sliding scale, isn't it?

(39:30):
I mean Well, I'm sure I'm sure I'm
sure
I'm sure that top means that there's more
revenue. Well, I'm sure there's 10%
that, don't have to pay and 90 that
do that are on the monetization end.
From what I see the pricing plans is
that it's usually, let's say,
a hundred bucks,
hundred and 50 bucks a month just to
be on their platform. Yeah. And then at

(39:53):
some point,
that that revenue share kicks in and makes
the hosting free.
Yeah. Sometimes.
That's their whole business model, Todd. Sometimes.
Again, we have people coming back to us
that were promised
the Earth and the sky.
Well, if the show didn't reach scale. Oh,

(40:13):
the show had scale. They just didn't deliver
what they just didn't deliver what was promised.
So I see both sides of it. I
see shows that go on, you know, and
they and they host for free, and they
have they have a revenue share. But again,
that's five, six, seven percent of the total
ecosystem.
You know, and a lot of what's happening,
you know, like with Spreaker, I see it

(40:33):
with, Art 19, I see it with
Megaphone. There's this
spectrum of how they're going to market trying
to attract shows. And if you look at
Spreaker, they have what's called the Spreaker Prime
program, which basically
gives access
to hosting on their platform for free.
All you have to do is sign up

(40:54):
for the programmatic. Right. And then you go
to Megaphone,
they have a more elaborate kind of business
plan that they have set up. But And
everybody's different.
It's it's $50 or a hundred dollars a
month base minimum.
And then once you get in the door,
then there's
other opportunities
to expand
on the revenue that offsets the Again cost.

(41:17):
For the for that slice of shows, which,
you know, that's good for them.
Yeah. But it's a big part of the
market for podcasts. Right? I mean, those are
just Small number of shows as compared to
the whole.
Yeah. Right.
I'm not saying that everybody in the industry
is taking advantage of these programs. There's still
places They don't qualify

(41:38):
for the programs.
Well,
they could if they wanted to.
All they have to pay is that 50
or a hundred bucks a month. But but
again beyond those platforms. Yeah. But if you
don't have the audience
size
to to monetize,
offset the difference, you are not going to
be on that plan.

(41:59):
You're gonna pay.
Yeah. That's exactly what I just said. If
you have a small show, you're gonna pay.
You can go over there, but there are
platforms that are free.
Like
So a person that's getting a hundred downloads
can get a free
account with advertising?
Programmatic advertising? Yeah. I can I can name

(42:20):
a couple of them right now? That I
have a hundred hundred people listening.
Well, Spotify for creators is one.
Of course, Spotify.
Right. So,
see, that's that's what's going on. There's a
spectrum of things that are going on in
the space and that it's not always in
the same model. Right? And it's not it's

(42:40):
not being done in the same way across
the industry. And certain players in the industry
are charging more for hosting
and other ones are not. And because the
other ones that are not are catering to
a different
end of the market. And yet none of
those folks support video.
Not a one of them.

(43:03):
Yeah. Okay.
Yeah. There's a reason for that.
I can tell you though that
all the ones that I've talked to are
moving that direction. Oh, they're considering it. I
know one show took moving that direction. Well,
I know one show that begged a certain
big platform for video,
and they agreed.

(43:24):
And his bill went from,
you know, almost nothing to a multi thousand
dollars a month.
Well, I mean, that's certainly a possibility, but
you always have to consider the monetization piece,
and that's gonna put pressure on those hosting
platforms to do dynamic insertion programmatic advertising into
video.
And that's that's the piece that you get

(43:46):
to be built in. At the CPM at
the CPM rates that you're getting for programmatic.
Well, it's not gonna be the same. Okay.
But again
It's video program. Audio. Yeah. I know. And
I know what YouTube is getting for
CPM programatics. We bought ads on YouTube,
and I know what it is. You can't

(44:07):
you can't make enough to offset the cost
of the delivery.
I don't know. YouTube can because they own
all the fiber.
Yeah.
YouTube doesn't pay that much. Yeah. They paid
almost nothing. So, of course, they have a
distinct advantage.
But when you have a podcaster that wants

(44:28):
to upload a four k video
and it is four to five gigabytes
in size
Yeah. Okay.
And if you are
sub penny for your bandwidth delivery
with just m p four, not HLS
Yeah. And you multiply that, and then you

(44:48):
multiply that again by a thousand, and you
come up with that number,
you're gonna be kinda shocked of what that
cost to deliver.
And if you're getting a CPM
that's not above if you you're gonna have
to be above 12 or 13
consistently.
And if you're not, you're not gonna make
no money on that audio. Because it's gonna

(45:10):
cost you more to deliver than the ad
will deliver unless you put five ads in
it. Right.
Thus, the
the inherent
complexity in
the in the medium today And if you
wanna at the root of what we're seeing
happening. And if you wanna deliver HLS, then
it's it is more expensive to deliver via

(45:30):
HLS. So you gotta have a, you know,
that the math works out different.
So Yeah. I'm not saying that people can't
do it,
but there's gonna be a lot of scratching
heads and the margins are gonna be much
smaller.
I will say this, I had at least
five people come to me during the show
and say, I want your programmatic business.

(45:52):
I'm like,
I have a partner already. You know? What
kind of a deal are you gonna make
me?
You know? And,
and no
one, at least verbally, the deal I was
presented
as better than the deal I have. I'm
like, why you know, they're taking such a
huge margin
on programmatic, on audio programmatic.

(46:14):
Some of these some of these folks are
taking 50%. Fifty %. Fifty
%. Right. That's insane.
I
think it ranges from, like, 40 to 50.
Right. Yeah. That's I I won't do any
deal unless the podcaster gets 70%.
No way. Well, you're not gonna have much
programmatic then. Well, we do.
We do.

(46:35):
Okay.
That's good. Yeah. Absolutely.
Our podcasters get 70%
of the gross revenue.
Well, that's good. That's a good thought.
So why would I It's kind of kind
of rarer in the industry.
Or it is probably you're probably the only
one.
Might be might be

(46:56):
the the comment that we Because in the
end, guess who ends up making all the
money?
The delivery
people make all the money. Well, they're
they're they built the infrastructure. Yeah. They capture
the buyers. Yeah. It's all computerized.
It is. Right?
And I believe that's gonna come to the

(47:16):
video side too. So
we'll see how that gets rolled out. I
think it's, you know, if you talk to
to to Justin from,
transistor.
I I know that's that's the point he's
positioning towards with the the podcast standards group,

(47:37):
is trying to figure out a way to
to standardize
the support of HLS.
Well And the and and the enclosure type.
Unless unless Apple does it, it won't work.
My point, you know, that's the key.
Did you get any sense from the Apple
folks you talked to that they're they they
even acknowledge what's happening in the market compared

(47:58):
to what they're what they're doing on their
own platform?
They didn't say anything, but here's my personal
gut.
Okay.
And I would be willing to lose a
bet on this,
But I my gut is that
that alternate enclosure thing

(48:18):
is would never be considered by them, but
maybe.
That's just my and, again,
that's just Todd.
That's not that's my crystal ball. I have
no idea.
Well, let's pull that apart. Why would they
be against it?
I think it makes it much harder to
deal with in the app.

(48:43):
Yeah. I think.
Well, they could still separate it out into
two
two separate categories of listing. Well, there's out
that's already
it's already done.
I know it's already in there doing that,
but And, you know, and if if they
That's done by separate RSS feeds. Yeah. But
if they say,
you know, let's say they say we're only

(49:03):
gonna support second RSS feed and you can
send us HLS. Well, great.
But I would I would I would be
shocked if they supported alternate enclosure. I just
would.
If they did, great.
But the original purpose of the alternate enclosure
was not just was to serve multiple
versions of a show.

(49:23):
In other words, lower quality audio for, you
know,
Africa, places. Where Yeah. No one's doing that.
No. I think we're past that. So I
think that the the use of alternate enclosure
is to offer
a video version and then the main enclosure
tag to offer the audio version. Yeah. And,
you know, if they did it, that would

(49:43):
be that would be fantastic.
But again It doesn't have to be HLS.
It can just be a link to the
m p four. Well, then why and then
and then again, they could very well within
their infrastructure
pull that m p four,
re encode it to HLS, serve it.
The alternate enclosure just be Right. Yeah. There's
all kinds of ways to mix it up.
Well, and that's kind of kind of the

(50:04):
bigger point here is that there's lots of
pathways that Apple could do this.
All they have to do is make the
tweaks to their back end, really, at the
end of the day because
they used to have the infrastructure where you
could pull up all of the video versions.
And it also And then and separately all
the audio versions. So all they have to
do is separate that in the back end.
And the the other reason that they might

(50:27):
do alternate enclosure
Right.
Is
if they're going to control
the
user experience
and wanna make sure there's a good experience,
they'll do like Spotify has done.
And within the app, they'll infrastructure it on
the back end on their side to support
the HLS.
So they'll just take them before, convert it.

(50:49):
And if I was gonna do that, that's
probably if I was if I had
the say so at Apple, that's what I
would probably recommend. Now people are screaming because
they're saying, well, that's not pass through.
Well, it's not.
You know? You know, so, you know, maybe
they're gonna It's gonna break any kind of
dynamically inserted host read

(51:11):
capabilities.
And being that no podcast,
content
host has that support now. Nobody has that.
So unless it gets built.
Yeah. But it is the first time, though.
It's kind of funny. The first time of
any show, I've actually heard other podcast hosts
now considering to do video.
Everyone a year ago was no way. We're

(51:31):
not doing it. Don't talk to us. This
is not in our road map. We're not
doing it. That was a couple of hosts
that was saying that. Oh, that was yes.
All of them were saying that. Well, there's
the ones that I was exposed to. There
are events.
Right. Well, there was what they
said offline and what they said in private.
Well, what they say in private was the

(51:52):
same thing
a year and a half ago, two years
ago. Absolutely.
We're not doing it.
I had those private conversations. They had we
have no desire to do video.
Again and again and again. Couple of them.
With a couple of them, but I wouldn't
say that all of them had that approach.
They may have had that publicly, but they
didn't necessarily have it privately. Yeah.

(52:14):
They could see where the winds were blowing.
Well, of course.
Then how it's simple to implement video. How
come they're not supporting now? It's simple.
Turn it on.
It's simple.
Turn it
on. It's it's not it's not any more
complicated than hosting audio.
I agree with you. It's fifteen minutes.
I know. You might need you might need

(52:36):
a video player for your customers.
So that's, you know, a week of dev
time. Well, you already built all that stuff.
Yeah. But I'm I'm just saying but, you
know, that what we use with WordPress is
the default video player that comes with WordPress.
What we what we provided for our podcast
hosting customers that are on
it's it's not complicated.
No. It's not. I would imagine that player

(52:58):
that you have works with HLS too.
I don't know about that. I'd have to
look.
You don't know about that? Yeah.
HLS is mostly
employed
on apps
and, you know, the YouTube website. You have
to have the the playback infrastructure. Again, you
gotta have the serving infrastructure to be able

(53:20):
to make that happen.
Mhmm. When someone plays this show on the
website,
they don't know it's HLS.
They they don't. They just play it back
and it's
Well, especially in live shows like what we're
doing right right now. Or someone comes and
does the downloads the show, which, you know,
20% of the audience does.
So Yeah. And
what are we gonna do with live? Because

(53:42):
live can really only be done through Well,
live live is already being done
on HLS. We were doing live HLS with
this show doing right now with this show?
Well, no. With this show, we're doing,
we're doing pushing to other platforms. We're doing,
we're we're doing RTMP,
and we're not doing any HLS on this

(54:05):
on this right now. We
we Okay. So you're using r RTMP to
push through the whole platform? That goes to
everybody. Goes to YouTube, Facebook, Twitter. Everyone's doing
RT. They're using HLS to push it out.
I don't know how they convert it.
So
Okay. Or if they do.
RTMP is its own

(54:25):
thing. I see the bandwidth that it is
used on Facebook and YouTube and everywhere else.
Yeah. It's a streaming
I think they serve the I think they
serve the original call. Original content. There
is a, you know, there is a we
already have a solution for live.
That's the thing.
We've got the ability for apps to show
the lie. Now I stopped doing HLS because

(54:46):
it was so expensive.
You know, that because you you get ten,
fifteen, 20, 20 five, 30, 50 people on
the HLS stream.
Yeah. It could be a it could be
a hundred dollars
every live
stream or more.
The way to serve this show,

(55:07):
one person on
HLS,
one person
is about a dollar
to serve this show for ninety minutes.
One person to
to Restream
and go out HLS on an app, one
person is about a dollar for that delivery.
That's using CloudFlare. Sing, go look at their
prices.

(55:28):
That seems to be gouging. Restream no. It's
expensive. Restream doesn't even support HLS.
Yeah. But it's expensive. Expensive. The delivery platform
and the conversion and the computers and,
again,
that's that's part of it.
So
Okay.
This works

(55:49):
on on most platforms that take RTMP. And
I again, I'm not a techie, so,
you know, it's going to Twitter. It's and
there's a reason that none of those platforms
take HLS.
YouTube doesn't take HLS.
YouTube takes RTMP.
Facebook takes RTMP. Twitter takes RP RTMP.
They all take RTMP.

(56:09):
So why don't we all just use RTMP
then?
I think because it's
more alive than on demand.
Could it be on demand?
I don't think so.
RTMP. What is the what is the actual
I think it's real time

(56:32):
media protocol.
Yeah. I think it's built on the HTTP
stack, isn't it? Is he a real time
messaging protocol? Protocol design for transmitting audio, video,
and other data over the Internet, particularly
for live streaming.
It's broke down into small packets.
That sounds like the definition for HLS.

(56:52):
So HLS definition. Let's do that.
HTTP live streaming is a video streaming protocol
developed by Apple.
HTTP.
Right. Right. And
it's the same it's just a different protocol.

(57:12):
Yeah. It's probably doing the same technical process.
Right? And it it supports adaptive bit rate,
which I don't think RTMP does.
Oh, well, like,
actually, I think it's variable bit rate. Right?
So Well, it's adaptive. It's what say, definition
says it's adaptive bit rate. It supports multiple
versions of video stream at different bit rates

(57:33):
and resolution, allowing the client to choose the
best quality for their network. Most time, they
pick
the stream you should get based upon your
bandwidth.
That's the main difference.
That's why The
the variable bit rate or
or VBR has been around with audio for
years. Yeah. Has it been but no no
one does VBR in podcast or even does

(57:55):
fix bit rate
in audio.
And because files are small
live streaming. Right?
Yeah. I don't know. Maybe. But adaptive bit
rate is what makes HLS so
powerful. Years and years ago, I did that
with my own,
radio show. I did an adaptive or a
VBR,

(58:16):
version of my m p three file. So
I would play play it through the shout
cast server. So if if a if a
listener had a higher bit rate,
consumption
capability, they could listen to a better quality
version of the show.
So again,
you know, all these other
all these other folks,

(58:37):
you know, so, again, I think
when because HLS is not used a lot
in live streaming
and people are not serving
media to app most apps, like, again, the
most of the podcast apps that were supporting
video,
live would only take HLS.

(58:59):
And because it's natively supported in the app,
it's easy for the developers to my understanding.
Mhmm.
Whereas the RTMP
video
is not easy for the apps.
So that's the reason why all the apps
required an h for HLS for the live
stream, and that's what just was so so

(59:20):
ridiculously
expensive.
HLS delivery cost difference.
So, Todd, one one thing we haven't really
talked about is kind of the
the podcast show event itself Yeah. And,
how many people were there?
What was the the vibe beyond just the

(59:42):
video video video stuff? But what was kind
of the the culture you saw there?
Did you see a lot of Americans there?
No. Did you Nope. Hardly any Americans. There
was a handful that we talked to, and
it was all industry people.
6,000.
I would I would say that's
probably
you know, you always try you know, the

(01:00:03):
show produces a number, 6,200, and then you
look at the number. I I have some
pictures I put on social that there there
was at least
at least a thousand people just in three
shots that I shot.
And, again, that wasn't counting any of the
rooms. Oh. So it was you know, there
are a lot of people there.

(01:00:23):
But again, that show
does not
we didn't see 6,000 people's worth of traffic
at the booth. I can tell you that.
Well, I think think you have to back
up and you have to look at what
number you just shared and where that's derived
from. Because if you compare that to, like,
podcast movements Oh, that's
it it's not the same. Oh, it is
it is it is a massive show.

(01:00:46):
Massive. I'm not saying Oh. I'm not talking
about that. I'm talking about kind of the
the infrastructure of what to actually do at
the event is different. Right? So it's it's
two days. Yeah.
And people can come in and buy A
single day pass. Tickets. Yep. Right?
So you have a certain percentage of the
people that go day one and day two.

(01:01:07):
And then there's another group of people that
just do one or second day. Yeah. Most
of the people we talk to are coming
for a day.
Yeah. So so what we don't know is
how many people attended the whole event. I
would say Was it 2,000 people out of
the six, or
was it 3,000 people out of the six?

(01:01:29):
Probably half.
Okay. So 3,000 people,
new
each day.
No. I would say
6,000 was the total.
Total. But you're I would say that there
was at least a thousand people that were
there both days and then 2,000

(01:01:50):
that were
in and outs.
Yes. You have to factor in
how many people attended both days. I would
say I'd say about a thousand.
Right. Because I think the event counts people
that attend
Yeah. Five days. I'm sure, like, Yeah. Of
course. So again, that would be 2,000 for

(01:02:11):
two days and then 4,000
that were,
you know, came for single days. That went
both days or yeah. So you Two two
thousand that came for both days and 4,000
that came for one day each.
Or 2,000 each. Yeah. Yeah. Some people that
are comparing podcast movement with
a podcast show may be comparing apples and
oranges. But again, it was I'm just saying.

(01:02:32):
It's it's because people come in, have meetings,
go to some events And then they go
home. They go home.
Right. People were coming in from France just
for the day. People were getting in late.
Go ahead. But, anyway, it was
and central location, you're ten minutes from the
tube.
You know?

(01:02:54):
It was and no one
no one except for exhibitors here at the
hotels. No one.
No attendees stated,
you know,
no one came in. Lot of lot of
people
came from the local UK Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Region. Yeah. So I'm sure the people that
came two days in a row probably were
mostly local. Although we had some people from

(01:03:14):
Germany,
France, Spain,
Italy
Mhmm. Ireland. A lot of people from Ireland,
Scots. What else?
Yeah. A lot of people from Italy.
Yeah.
Those were the countries I heard mostly.
Okay. Yeah. And what else? Well, it was

(01:03:35):
some Swiss, a few Dutch.
Yeah. So there was a good good variety.
Yes.
I think I also saw that there was,
six
after hours
live podcasts on on stage in in the
venue. So, like, outside the normal Yeah. I
don't know how many people attended those. Well,
I don't either, but but I'm just saying

(01:03:55):
that The evening events were only us that
were exhibitors.
There was hardly any,
you know, like, we went to go to
the iHeart party, and it was it was
just, you know, everyone was an exhibitor because
people went home.
So there's there, you know, there's a few,
but there was not networking. There's no networking
opportunities
after the show

(01:04:16):
besides people within the industry.
Yeah. I went to the first year of
the podcast show. So I spent a whole
week in London Yeah. Around that particular event.
And and when they had the event the
first year,
they had all those live performances
of podcasts,
in theaters around London.
So I think they had that some of

(01:04:38):
that going on too.
Well, from what I saw on the on
the website,
only one of the five live shows that
they did on the day before and the
day after
were actually,
outside of the venue. Oh, I see. They
had a whole bunch of mini studios there.
Oh, did they? Yeah. But I don't know.
I I didn't pay attention too much. I

(01:04:59):
just the only session I could go to
was the Apple session,
and it was full. There was 600 people
in that room with people sitting on the
floor.
And I think they also counted
how many people that they counted
attended the the live
tapings of sorts of podcasts
in their overall attendance. What we didn't talk

(01:05:20):
to was new creators.
Everyone was a
existing creator.
We didn't talk to a single person that
was pre launch, not a single show,
not a single person
The entire So does that make the show
not a success for you?
What's gonna make the show a success for
us is

(01:05:40):
our network conference. Yeah. Right.
Yep. Yeah. That's what Yeah. That will be
and also getting our word out because people
still don't know who we are.
That's what I see in the market today.
There's a lot of activity around networks right
now. Oh, yeah. It's huge.
Yeah. Every and everyone's and it's they're all

(01:06:01):
fighting for the same talent.
Right. Well, that's been going on for a
while. Yeah. It's even more now.
But there was yeah. There was we probably
talked to
30 or 40 networks.
Probably that's probably that's the What was the
perception
that you had around what they were all

(01:06:22):
looking for?
What we offer.
No. No. No. What's what
yeah. I mean Yeah. What their what their
challenge is is all they're showing. They trying
to solve by by aligning with a particular
host?
They're trying to make sure that they don't
have to have 18 different interfaces,

(01:06:43):
And they have a single point of stats.
And our stats, man, people were crazy about
it. We had a picture on the wall,
and, just that picture alone drove
50% of the traffic in the booth wanting
to see our stats.
The majority I I think that there's
well, anyway, I won't yeah. I think some

(01:07:03):
hosts do a pretty shitty job
on stats.
Spotify for sure. You know, their their stats
are junk.
Spotify doesn't really care that much. They don't
care. No.
And people can't The number the better. And
people can't believe the numbers. Yeah. That was
a hoke. That was industry talk in the
on the floor.
But Well, that whole I'm I mean, a

(01:07:24):
lot of people probably, I'm sure, were talking
about the display of play. The BBC had
a booth that was kitty corner to us,
and there was nobody there's, like, two people
in the booth
and not not a lot of activity going
on.
It's kinda weird.
So I had this big expensive booth.
There was some big booths there that I
was trying to figure out what their business

(01:07:45):
even was.
Wasn't as many vendors.
What booths did you say,
from what you could tell,
were getting the most interest? Nobody got much
traffic.
We probably walked out with
200
contacts.

(01:08:06):
Told you to go back? Yeah. What can
I go back?
I'm not gonna have as big a
booth.
Yeah. So how's that different than what you
went through with
Podcast Movement?
Which event?
Either one.
I'm almost embarrassed to say how bad podcast
movement evolutions was.

(01:08:29):
Bad.
There just weren't anybody there? Or Bad. And
the people we talked to, we talked to
more people that we know
and are friends with and then have been
in the business.
We talked to the industry there. We didn't
talk to Yeah. Creators.
Wow. That's that's what that event is. It's
bad. It's not it's not a career. And
there was you

(01:08:50):
you know,
Frank, I mean,
Dan should be should've been over there and
seen that show.
There is
here's okay. So here or here's a problem.
Centrally located, easy to get to, lots of
food options.
Oops. Yeah. Oops.

(01:09:12):
Oh, what's going on here?
I pulled the cable. Oh, no.
There we go.
We're not out in the middle of the
boondocks.
Dallas and Gaylord is you know,

(01:09:32):
we're out in the middle of nowhere. We're
not in a central location. I can't walk
out of the Gaylord and go to a
a restaurant.
Well, it's such a huge venue too. You
know? And it's
you know? And
that is much
because if someone's coming like, in London, we
could get out in the evenings. If we
wanted to go to,
to sightseeing, we could. You could've walked out,

(01:09:55):
bam, been on the tube or been in
a bus in ten minutes. We could've been
at a major attraction.
Westminster Abbey, 10 Minutes away from that venue
area. All kinds of stuff. So
I
I don't know. You know, I
everyone is gonna see the word on the
street, Dan,

(01:10:17):
is everyone's gonna see how the summer event
goes.
Yeah.
Yeah. That's Is That's the acid test this
year. That's the acid test.
Yep.
Yeah. And
right now,
I'm only planning two events for next year,

(01:10:37):
podcast events.
That's a big change, Todd.
And one of is London.
And that one didn't even sound like was
It's it's good because a great creator event
either. It's we'll know in a month
what our numbers are

(01:10:59):
from that event.
But there's so many creators there. You have
to be there. There's 6,000 people.
I mean, wall to wall.
Well, there were creators there or there weren't
creators? Yeah. There's plenty of creators there, but
not prelaunch.
Oh, right. Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, it
just Shows that are Gobs. Another network. Yeah.
Gobs or have their own individual shows, individual.

(01:11:21):
We talk to a lot of people that
are just a month, two months, three months,
six months, a lot.
A lot of this. Why don't you think
that,
that same pattern
isn't happening with podcast movement here? No day
pass,
middle of nowhere.
Right.
Middle of the week, but the middle of

(01:11:42):
the week there, they could come for a
day.
Right.
It boom. It's just geography. It's different.
Texas is the size of all of Europe.
You know?
So, you know, you can get an airplane
and and be in London in an hour
from ever any place in Europe. So it's
just it's just it's just a different geographical

(01:12:04):
thing. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. But
yeah. So what does podcast movement need to
do to change is the question. Is it
need to The venue and location.
Just just venue. Well, because they have to
accept the fact that they're not a 3,000
person show. No.
No.
So they they can't justify being in a

(01:12:26):
huge hotel anymore. No.
They could probably be in a be in
a theater venue and be better off. They
could they could probably be in Downtown LA
and be okay. It'd be better than
Texas and the Gaylord.
Yeah. I mean, if they're gonna you need
a rental car to get to. Oh, they're
gonna Right. If
if they're gonna cater to the industry, the

(01:12:48):
industry is pretty small Yeah. Actually.
And it's been getting smaller over the last
year because everybody's getting laid off. But Dallas
is a major hub, but Dallas and then
from where the airport is to where the
venue is
is a long ways.
It's quite a drive. Yeah. Yeah. But not
to say that Heathrow to this venue is
not a long ways either. But, again, I'm

(01:13:08):
coming from international. I'm going into Heathrow, and
I'm taking an hour to get to the
venue. But once I'm at the venue, everything
is,
there's 50 food options Yeah. Five minutes within
the venue. Right
around that venue. It's all walking distance. You
can go have an off-site meeting and not
Right. And go off-site and be back in
an hour.

(01:13:28):
I know. Yeah. I did that quite often
when I was there. You know, these pubs
that are up underground and Yeah. There's there's
just lots lots of options. Right. You know?
And
I I
I and also, again, I think if
podcast movement wants to survive, they gotta shift.
If they want creators to come, if it's

(01:13:49):
gonna be an industry event, it's an industry
event. That's all we need to know.
I don't even know why why a creator
would even go, Todd.
At this point, why would a creator even
go? I
It's a good question. Good question.
That podcast movement needs to answer.

(01:14:12):
I don't know that there is a reason
for them to go.
Podfest. I mean, increasingly, if you see the
surveys that are coming out of the the
trade show industry right now,
you know,
panel and content is at the bottom of
the list of reasons. Oh, these panels were
conferences. These panels were full. I think that's
the reason a lot of people went. The

(01:14:33):
panels were jock I mean, jam packed.
What was different about those compared to what
we see at Podcast Movement where there there's
very few people that go to the panels?
I think there's very few people that go
to view to the panels because there's very
few people there.
Well,
that's a given. Right? Well, I I think
what's happening at, a lot of people are

(01:14:55):
going to have meetings with big industry people.
So they go to the meetings and do
their business and leave. Or is it just
because it's still new in London? What's happening
with this medium? Maybe. And what's happening here
in The US? Maybe. Sure. Maybe.
But there's a lot of people speaking two
or three times. Like, James spoke two or
three times. I I didn't even apply to

(01:15:16):
speak. I could have probably gotten
a a spot,
but I didn't wanna leave
there's only two of us there, and we
didn't wanna leave Dave hanging
for too long
by himself.
So Yeah. Right.
It's it's a different show. There's a huge
amount of energy. But one thing is true
from last year to this year, everyone's got
a place to go. You gotta have a

(01:15:37):
reason
to have them stop at the booth. You
gotta have good signage.
You gotta have and, you know, if I
if I
next year, my booth is gonna be more
simple. Start your podcast here
or migrate to us. That'll be the sign.
So the reason that most people you think

(01:16:00):
went to that show was because of the
panel sessions. Oh, I
they weren't talking to the if okay. So
there was less than
Or was it just to meet other people?
I don't know. Maybe.
Again, I'm not intermixing. I'm sitting in a
booth. Right? So there was
20

(01:16:21):
we'll have to count. We can count it
on 25 vendors maybe.
And if there's if Podcast Movement
had 6,000 people,
I would I would not be able I
wouldn't be able to talk at the end
of the day
because I would be five deep.
Well, there's been times at Podcast Movement when
that's been the case. Right. I would be
five I'd be five deep. Four years ago.

(01:16:42):
There, I was never five deep. It was
it was two one two two one two,
both of us busy.
You know, we had steady traffic the entire
time, but it wasn't like I had people
you know, once in a while, I had
a person waiting.
And to me, a good sign of a
good trade show for the for the vendors
is when we're when we are five deep
and people are listening into the other conversations

(01:17:04):
and then, you know, they're cycling through. Right.
You know? Well, I think one of the
things, Todd, if you think back
four or five years ago, one of the
things that really made that happen was the
fact that there there was energy around
being a new creator. Right? Yeah. That's true.
But one thing People were excited about podcasting.
People are wanting to get involved in it.

(01:17:25):
It was the hot thing at the time.
Yeah.
And it's
let's call a spade a spade. Podcasting is
mature now.
So the The hot thing.
So the
how Podfest drives people to the floor to
talk to the vendors is they're smart. Have
beer each evening.

(01:17:45):
Right. And they Have a networking event right
in the In in the middle of the
hall. And no sessions going on, and they
have
a treasure map.
So, you know, again,
what is the quality of those? Because, you
know, we try to pitch as many as
we can when they come to the treasure
map. You know, if they're already hosting with
someone else, we send them away with why
are you gonna migrate to us. Does that

(01:18:05):
generate any business? Probably
very little.
Yeah. But it gives us at least exposure.
Oh, you guys are blueberry. Here's what you
have. Wow. That's cool. But I will say
this, the traffic that came to the booth,
everyone was it was like, wow.
Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. I got
this that was the word. Wow was the
word. You got all this?

(01:18:27):
You guys been in business twenty years? Wow.
Wow. Right. All under one roof. Wow.
Yeah. Yeah. So that was the reaction.
Well, Todd, I think you're
you're a
in your platform are
are reflective of a company that has spanned
the entire span of podcasts,

(01:18:51):
journey. Right? So you've
you're one of three platforms that supports a
video still today at in RSS.
There's only two other companies that support it.
And so you've been able to see the
full span of time on this. And I
think that that puts you in a kind
of kind of a unique position in the

(01:19:11):
market. I don't necessarily see
Podbean or
to some degree even Lipson, but I would
say Lipson to more degree,
really playing that position.
Supposedly, Lipson was there. I never seen anybody.
Of course, I don't know if I'd recognize
any other people now.
I would say that they were all

(01:19:31):
the people that represented the advertised guests. Probably
the advertised guests. Yeah. So I mean, it's
not called advertised guests anymore. Yeah. Whatever. It's
A lot of that team left.
So it's it's really just a couple of
guys now. I saw some of the ex
Podbean
Yeah. Employees,
and

(01:19:52):
there's no bitterness there at all.
Right.
But no one had anything I'm not gonna
comment too much about that. But no one
had anything to say, which I thought was
interesting.
So I thought, oh, when people have They
don't wanna be positive. When no one has

(01:20:12):
well, they weren't positive. They had nothing to
say. Privately, they weren't positive, but I'm talking
about publicly. But, you know, to me makes
me say, oh, they got severance in some
NDA
as part of their
then why are they being so quiet?
That's a question.
It's it's a very challenging job market right

(01:20:34):
now, and all these people want wanna find
new roles. That's probably true.
So they don't wanna be, caught squealing about
their old employer.
So That old employer made some pretty big
changes very quickly.
So And we're getting some of their big
customers because of it.

(01:20:54):
Yeah.
There's been a lot of people that have
left. Well, I'm saying we're getting some of
their
big corporate
clients because I've seen Yeah. Not their people.
Well, no. No. No. No. I'm not talking
about staff. I'm talking about Business. Customers. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. No. I
Yeah. I can totally see that happening. Yeah.
Especially when people's contracts are up.

(01:21:16):
Yep. Because some people are under contracts.
Yeah. I think it's
challenging market right now.
So
we'll see. So Rob happening with,
with Lipson right now, you know, it's
it's probably a pretty challenging situation for them
too. Yeah.
So anyway, is,

(01:21:37):
getting to another topic at hand. Is this
the end? Are we gonna continue the new
media show?
I don't know, Todd. We should maybe we
should talk about that. Is there a reason
to continue this show? I think so.
What would your
definition of that be?
You know, I I just have to be
frank. I'm the

(01:21:59):
I have to protect the audio audience. I
have to continue to be that that bearer
of truth that audio is still valuable.
And and and push back a little bit
on
not your narrative, but some of this corporate
narrative that's coming out. Narrative, Todd. Yeah. I
know. You do too a little bit.

(01:22:19):
You you fell in love with YouTube. So,
you know. No. I
I got into it to learn what was
happening out there. Okay. But, you know, I
understand. I'm not infatuated with YouTube.
I'm just seeing what's happening there and what
the impact is Yeah. Of what they're doing
is significant.
We should be paying attention to it. Yeah.
So but,

(01:22:41):
yeah. I think it's a good question. You
know, is is
the medium that we're working
in new media anymore too, Todd?
Well, it's not like it can change the
show to meet to the meet to the
media show.
I don't think that domain is available.
I do know that the White House has

(01:23:02):
now
apportioned
a seat in the press room called the
new media seat. Oh, that's great. I could
buy my domain. Saw that, which I thought
was an interesting connection to us because it's
usually a podcast or some sort or a
And they they definitely pissed off the mainstream
media with that seat too.
But well well well in time.

(01:23:23):
I I really feel sorry for the mainstream
media right now, Todd.
I don't know about you.
But, you know, I, you know, I saw
your post on
on LinkedIn and other places talking about, you
know, maybe pursuing some more AI type topics.
And
Yeah.
Mhmm.
Yeah. I'm

(01:23:44):
I'm looking to the future, Todd. I'm looking
to
what's on the horizon here and and
adjusting and which I've always kind of
dodged and moved
and and tried to, you know,
keep up with what's happening in the market.
You know, if I think back to back
when I started my radio show back in

(01:24:05):
1999,
I did it because of a big shift
in media.
I could see what was happening with content
marketing and online
contributions for that, and I wanted to get
involved in it, and I wanted to learn
it, and I wanted to participate in it,
and I wanted to take advantage of it.
I I have a marketing background, a marketing
degree,
and that was a big part of what

(01:24:26):
I could see the the shifts in the
market. And so I'm seeing the same thing
happen right now,
with
AI.
And
Surprisingly, that conversation didn't come up at one
time at the booth,
which is curious.
It is curious, Todd. Not once. Now they
asked about our they took our fire.

(01:24:47):
Why do you think that's that happened? That
probably should have been a more important conversation
than video.
I think it's just become part of everybody's
or,
their lives are using it.
So when they see someone has an AI
integrated solution, they're like, oh, okay.
You know, if you don't have it, then
maybe that's a red flag. But They're not

(01:25:10):
concerned about the direction that it's going or
Yeah. Issues related to the I'm sure they're
concerned about their jobs,
you know. But they weren't there to talk
about their jobs. They're there to talk about
building their shows.
So
I guess the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. But
I think the

(01:25:31):
the
I didn't hear any discussions about AI taking
over content or anything like that. You know,
a few people ask, you know, about,
you know, can you you know, who do
you recommend for doing multi language?
And, of course, and there's just a couple
players that are doing that well right now.
So,
Yeah. I just wonder if

(01:25:52):
that market
for podcasting is still
not seeing its impact yet, I guess. Well,
I think
the I don't see it as an impact
to
original content.
I you know, personally, maybe you're listening to
it. I'm avoiding any AI generated videos,

(01:26:17):
when I can detect it.
Why are you avoiding it, Todd?
Because
I don't trust it yet.
Is there a point which when you will
trust me? We'll see. I don't know. But
again, I'm gonna be seeking out original voices
and people that like to argue.
You know, me, you know,

(01:26:37):
you know, who knows? I I just,
You know? Yeah. There's lots of cool things
you can experiment with. You know? A lot
of people are experimenting with having their cohosts
being an AI.
You know? And but, you know, the the
a lot of you can't do that live
because there's too much of a delay.
So, you know, there's just

(01:27:01):
yeah. We'll see. We'll see what happens. It's
not gonna hold it back for long.
Again, you know, everyone's gonna always,
edit out the delay. Everyone's going yeah. You
can edit out. You can edit out for
sure. The but I think,
you know, I don't know. It wasn't a
conversation there. That's for sure.
I
think that's

(01:27:21):
more interesting than anything.
So this whole conversation between audio and video,
I think, is kind of a
not a sign of Well industry really embracing
the the
the reality of the consumer market.
So
But the re again,
most people have time to listen and have

(01:27:43):
time to watch.
Some people like one over the other,
and it's always it's always been that way.
Some people like to read more than they
like to listen. So there's In a lot
of ways, that's why this conversation
is kind of or this tug of war
between audio and video is kind of a
silly one because,
you know, audio and video

(01:28:04):
have been part of podcasting since 02/2005.
So it's
it just wasn't emphasized
for many years.
Yeah.
And it was expensive
in the early days.
Well, yeah. And I think that was a
big reason why video podcasting kind of Went

(01:28:24):
to YouTube. Back in They went to YouTube
in the beginning. Yeah. Everybody shifted their content
Yeah. To YouTube because then they didn't have
to pay for nothing. Didn't have to pay
for nothing. Yeah. Right. But the bandwidth back
in those days was a lot more expensive
than it is today. Yeah. And we started
out paying 10¢ a gig.
Yeah. And now it's fractions of a cent.
So Yeah. Yeah. Sub penny. Yeah.

(01:28:44):
Yeah. So things have changed.
But the medium hasn't really changed from the
standpoint of the infrastructure of podcasting.
We're still doing the same thing that we
did fifteen years ago. It's beautiful. It's open.
It's beautiful. Yeah. It is beautiful.
It's open and,
It is. Can't be controlled.

(01:29:05):
Well,
not that people aren't gonna try, but I
Well I agree with you, Todd. I don't
think it's gonna be successful, and that's why
I don't think that
YouTube
is going to be able to disrupt podcasting.
Oh, they're disrupting it already. They're just Well,
they're trying. They're disrupting the message.
They're trying, and to some degree, they're succeeding.

(01:29:27):
Oh, yeah. But we've seen this happen before.
Not true. And then they gave up on
stuff before.
I don't think they're gonna get I don't
think they give up. No. I don't think
they're gonna give up this time.
No. There's too much money to be made
for them and and to, you know, monetize
on the backs of creators that don't make
enough
don't get enough views to get their, you
know, get their 10 sons.

(01:29:49):
I'm fascinated
to think about how AI is gonna change
the paradigm of you of YouTube. It could
saturate it to the point that,
Eurohumans don't make no money and YouTube takes
it all.
There's a lot of talk in the tech
space right now that,
AI is gonna take over our
devices and how we interface with the Internet.

(01:30:12):
Yeah. It's it's what you allow.
Well, it's what the big tech companies Oh,
yeah. Make available to us.
Yeah. You look at the Google be, AI
interface.
You look at the Google announcement last week,
it's everything's integrated.
So that It's all gonna be funneled through
AI.

(01:30:32):
Which, you know, may ultimately
completely
destroy small businesses,
completely destroy
creators. But it it has serious ramifications.
Yeah. Because if if YouTube doesn't have to
rely on creators to make content, they can
just use robots.
Well, the same thing happened with the Internet

(01:30:54):
in the early days, Todd. We transitioned from
an analog economy to a digital economy, and
that caused change.
Well,
at least things of another Oh, what? Kind
of
technological transformation.
Yeah.
Okay. I just wanna look at this.
Just got my numbers. Just got my numbers

(01:31:15):
for GoDaddy.
You did?
Well, good news.
Good news.
Yeah.
So
to get back to your your question
Yeah.
About about the future of the show. I
would love to hear from the audience.

(01:31:36):
Oh.
To
to let us know
what you think we should do. Are we
serving a purpose in the market? Do you
see us you know, I wanna do a
show that is growing and want and is
relevant
to the audience and is driving value to
the audience, and I think you want that
too, Todd. Well, I also want to protect

(01:31:57):
the medium. And I, you know, and if
we're not serving as
That's that's coming into it with an agenda,
which is what I'm worried about. Well, yeah.
Make sure that I wanna go into it
with an agenda Well, it to drive a
certain narrative. I have to I have to
protect the medium. If If I don't, I'm
gonna get fired. Yeah. But that doesn't have

(01:32:17):
to be here. Well, I'm a purveyor of
take my RSS out of my dead bare
hands. Okay. Well, I'm not against that. That's
fine.
So You know, we've been we've been talking
about AI and stuff, but I my issue
is I just don't wanna be so
hung up on

(01:32:38):
video.
At the same time the whole world is?
Oh, you know, not the whole world.
A percentage of the world.
A big percentage.
It's a growing percentage of the world. Yeah.
But again,
if we want and, you know, I'm saying
this very seriously. You thought I'm
I'm lying.
If we You're lying. If we want

(01:33:00):
the podcasting space
to survive as Audio podcasting space. The audio
podcasting space to survive,
we have to make sure that we are
inclusive
and open
to
people that are not being under pressure to
think they have to do video.
And what what is what is podcasting served?

(01:33:22):
Under marginalized groups.
It served women. It served people in countries
that can't show their face.
All kinds of
potential
because it's audio.
And I think there's still
a huge market for it. But if we
continue

(01:33:42):
to just talk about video,
those that and if that is what's coming
out of the industry's mouth, and that's what
they wanna ship
to, they'll never beat YouTube.
Never.
They'll never beat YouTube.
They'll never beat YouTube. So somebody has to
beat YouTube? No. I'm just saying it'll all
go to YouTube.

(01:34:03):
If if if if that's all they wanna
talk about, it's just all gonna go to
YouTube.
And if that's what people want, that's fine.
And then you have to answer to that
piper. You have to answer
to YouTube. And if you say one thing
wrong, you're out. And then you have to
go find a new home and a way
to make money and find a way to

(01:34:24):
build your brand. There is so much
risk.
And from a creator standpoint
of being a one trick pony.
And as long as we keep telling people
that there is not just a one trick
pony, you can do stuff
all across the space, including YouTube if you
want. I'm cool with that. But I think

(01:34:46):
we have to,
you know again, I feel it's my mission.
I almost like I used to tell people
you have have your own Com. I still
say that. But I tell people now, hey.
You gotta have you better have an RSS
feed
as a backup plan if nothing else.
Yeah. Well So, you know, I'm happy to

(01:35:07):
talk about AI and all that stuff.
I am. I
it's it's gonna be huge.
I already know it. We're using it all
the way through my company.
You know? We're we're definitely gonna be an
AI first company. That's for sure.
Otherwise I think audio is gonna go away
at all. It's not
really entirely under threat per se. I think

(01:35:28):
it's under threat to to
to some that are looking at the audio
podcast
industry,
growing as fast as it is. Oh, it's
it's not growing grow as fast as it
that That's that ain't happening.
What is under As far as new creator.
What is under threat is new creators.

(01:35:49):
Right. And there has and if there's not
a pipeline
of new creators,
the companies won't survive. The reason I How
do you
I I think the bigger question to answer
is how do we foster new creators in
audio podcasting? Just make them understand the value
of it. But we also
have to do what the podcasting two point
o is doing, what the

(01:36:09):
the standards project is doing. We need to
get these effing features.
And what we also have to do is
understand
that
without
micro networks,
of people circling wagons with 20 shows that
are like,

(01:36:29):
it's gonna be a hard road to hoe.
So, you know, I fully understand. I I
can't wait for the apps no more.
So stuff we're doing it internally, we're not
waiting for the apps.
We can't.
We can't wait for the apps
because we have to give the list hear
what we have to do.

(01:36:51):
Mhmm.
Why are people on YouTube? Why are people
on Spotify?
It's easy.
I agree.
We got these old apps.
There's no interaction.
There's no way to to give at least,
you know, and some of the more
overcast knows others. There's no way to build

(01:37:13):
community.
There's none of that in there.
Well, it's all being built outside of podcasting.
It's all being built on other platforms that
are building these capabilities.
So people have to plug and play into
a bunch of different,
tools and platforms. Right. And most people are
not technically inclined to do that. So,
you know, we're gonna have to come up

(01:37:34):
with solutions and other people you know, I'm
not the only one thinking about this.
You know? So I mean, I think to
attract new creators, I think the industry needs
to integrate more of these things and Absolutely.
Just like what YouTube is doing. I mean,
if you wanna compete with YouTube, you gotta
compete with YouTube. It's the same message that
that I have for Spotify
because Spotify is not competing with YouTube right

(01:37:56):
now even though they Nah. They say they
want to be just like YouTube. But, again,
you know,
are we gonna be able to coalesce around
one tool? Are they gonna become the YouTube
of podcasting? No. No one's gonna do that.
And what if Netflix gets into podcasting in
a big way? I saw that they were
a sponsor
at the
at the podcast show. I don't know what

(01:38:18):
they were doing.
Didn't see any of their people or booth.
They didn't have a booth.
They probably didn't have a booth. Yeah. But
they've had, podcast staff. Actually, the person that
worked there used to work for Apple. I
you know, I will see. On the podcasting
side. We'll we'll see what happens. I I
think in the end, it's gonna be a
big shakeout.
But, you know, what we have to do

(01:38:40):
as podcast host. Now, kinda interesting,
Fountain
made a deal with RSS Blue,
and they're combining.
So,
that
I won't go into the deep
What's what's RSS Blue? That's another hosting platform,
a small one.
It was a podcasting two point o, %

(01:39:01):
platforms. Oh. They served a lot of music
shows.
So Okay. Yeah. I wasn't familiar with them.
But, you know, they went from a price
structure. It was very low to very high,
so there's disruption there. Yeah. I won't go
into it, but, you know, they've got a
tough challenge now to figure that out and
how to keep their creators happy. But,
again, that it's probably smart move by them

(01:39:23):
to co to join up and have forces.
But
as a podcast host,
they're not technically competing against me, so I,
how can I promote that app?
So that's a double edged sword. Right?
If I go over there and tell my
listeners to go over there and listen,
and
I'm trying to and I've converted a lot
of my listeners to podcasters.

(01:39:44):
You know, they're over there and then, you
know, they're being marketed to. I'm not saying
that that's happening yet.
But, again, you know, this is, you know,
this
you know, it's kinda funny. So
but, again, I think it's up to the
creators. Again, I'm gonna try to build tools
that allow
e make it easier for small networks to,

(01:40:06):
have a bigger presence.
Initially, it's gonna be strictly PWA.
It's not the best solution,
But I don't have a half million laying
around to build an app either.
Right. And I don't wanna build an app.
I really don't.
But now there's a little bit of a
game change. Apple has been forced.
This is kind of funny.

(01:40:28):
Oh, on their 30% share? Well, they've been
forced to allow external links.
So now if I'm a podcast app,
put the funding tag in there.
Put the funding tag linked to my funding
stuff so I can
if someone's using your app, then they wanna
send me a donation
via PayPal or whatever mechanism I'm using. Let
that happen.

(01:40:48):
But,
again,
will they do it? I don't. And I
I jokingly said to Apple, they're like, what
would you like to see us implement?
And, of course, you know, I've got a
laundry list of stuff, and I and and
and, you know, as I just kinda jokingly
say, I said, now you guys really wanna
make a statement.
And, of course, there's Stonewall. You know, not

(01:41:10):
a not a smile,
not a grin, you know, not not a
single
not a single thing. And I jokingly said,
I said, you wanna make a statement.
If if the lawsuit gets your appeal fails,
and I No. I said, put the funding
link in the Apple Podcast app.
Linking to

(01:41:31):
and not a not a smile, not and,
of course, you know, they Apple does not
like this, you know, Apple corporate does not
like this
ruling,
but it is
has major implications.
Major. Todd,
I have a question for Apple that I'm
gonna post on here because I know some

(01:41:53):
sometimes Apple listens. Yeah. Is,
so with Jake Shapiro up on stage at
the podcast show, does that mean that,
Jake
or Ted or
any of the others that are at Apple
can
join us on the new media show at
some point?
There's not a chance in hell.

(01:42:16):
Because we'll ask too many, No. It's because
tough questions?
I'm just assuming they've been twenty years since
they've been able to
present.
I know. Okay.
That's kinda my point. So you had two
of the top dogs for Apple Podcasts
on the stage.
So it was Jake and who else? What's

(01:42:36):
her name?
I apologize.
Oh, okay.
She's a talking about?
God. Yeah.
Yeah. I know who you're talking about. Alright.
I'm being I'll be scolded here by somebody.
I'll get an email.
Anyway
She's the lead program manager Yeah. Yeah. For
Apple Podcast.
Yes. And,

(01:42:57):
the Apple the presentation was very Applesque
Mhmm.
And very practiced.
They do do what Apple does.
And and I and I kinda tease somebody
that was on the team. I said, how
long did that take to get through legal?
That's what I say, buttoned up and And
not a word. You know? I said, take

(01:43:17):
three months,
four months. How many months it take to
get to get that through legal? And,
you know, not not a single
not a single comment.
So
there's no way
that we could ever get
maybe if they had an announcement and we
had an agenda,

(01:43:38):
but again, they have their own they have
the Apple way. They send an email.
They invite people for private meetings.
You're under just nondisclosure.
You know?
No public
spontaneous
discussions.
No. Because they get fired.
They get fired. Yeah. They can't.

(01:43:59):
You know, they really can't. And, you know,
I I feel bad because we all abuse
them. You know, we we don't abuse them,
but, you know, you know, thirty minutes, how's
things going? And I go for thirty minutes,
and
I can't really say that sounds great.
I call it contractor speak. When I worked
for the government, it was I'd go in

(01:44:20):
and the contractor would be telling me, oh,
and if I said that sounds great, that
was an acknowledgment that I think we should
do this.
I said,
interesting. Wow.
Yeah. I mean, Apple has every right to
do what they're doing. Yeah. Of course.
It's it's it's unfortunately a little disengaged from

(01:44:41):
the reality of It is. The reason
the reason is is because but but you
see really YouTube out there doing their their
messaging's pretty tight too. So
it's it's not much They're up on stage
doing interviews. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
And I do see their their staff going
on podcasts.
So

(01:45:01):
again, I think it's just that's the culture
there, and I understand. Oh, I know it
is. It's been that way since we started
And since the beginning.
Acknowledging their That's why I had to make
sure I got in and hear the presentation.
And I was that so rare. I filmed
a couple of the things, and, you know,
they they showed our you know, and and
we have to give credit where credit's due.

(01:45:25):
Regardless of what people think, this industry would
not be here had not
iTunes been introduced,
podcasting has been introduced. Steve Jobs.
Yeah.
He's the one that really made this up.
You know, Steve Jobs and Adam Curry discussion
and getting, you know, Adam providing the
the initial influx of feed listings
and all that stuff that happened.

(01:45:47):
Well, he got,
Steve's attention.
Yep. I know that you Yeah. You've heard
that. You got There's just I mean, you
got Steve's attention. Right. But in a different
way. Also. Yeah. In a different way. Yeah.
Because I was pissed off about the piece
of shit Mac mini I had.
First one, piece of trash.
Got a Macbook Pro out of it.

(01:46:09):
Yeah. He did.
But I don't know. A phone call from
him. Yeah. Well, I got a phone call
from his secretary, then I talked to him.
Yeah. Right. Yeah. But I did. Yeah. That's
how they do stuff. Yeah. Right. I talked
to Donald Trump too, but I really didn't
talk. I just listened.
Of course. Yeah. That was still back when
he was not a politician.

(01:46:31):
I think Donald Trump was really always a
politician. You know, that I just I laugh
about that. I was coming out of the
tunnel on H 310 headed towards Honolulu and,
you know, my phone rings and,
you know,
Donald. I'm like,
I heard you've been talking to these guys.
We're on The Apprentice. I understand they wanna
do a podcast. I know there's a licensing
issue.

(01:46:52):
We'll get it done. Don't worry. We'll take
care of the legal blah blah blah blah
blah blah Blah blah blah. You're free to
work with them. We'll get the we'll get
the paperwork done. Blah blah. Click.
Oh, oh, oh, oh, you know, I didn't
even say three words.
You're furiously taking notes. No. I'm driving.
Oh, you're driving when you're doing this? Yeah.
I'm on I'm on

(01:47:13):
speaker phone, you know. Alright. Anyway okay. Well,
Rob, I guess we will play this by
ear.
Yes. We shall.
So let us know what you think.
Post in the comments here.
And if you wanna send an email, you
can send it to me. Yeah. [e-mail]
or send Taba Todd a

(01:47:35):
pestering message. Sure. We've had a lot of
people watching, not very many people commenting.
Mhmm. Livestream has a lot of people.
Facebook has quite a a number,
but no one's made a comment.
So what does everyone think? Is this the
end?

(01:47:55):
Or should it be the end? Or or
or does someone have a media.mediamedia.show
they wanna give us?
Right. Or
do you think we should change the name
of the show to,
what could we change the show? Oh, god.
We did this before. This is dangerous. Years
ago. Years ago. Yeah. We did it during

(01:48:16):
the show. So don't do it here because
the domain name will get bought up before
I can get it.
Mhmm. What should yeah. What should we have
as a new show name if we're to
re revamp?
Well, and how could we change the the
format of the show? Beauty beauty bible says
pivot, guys. Pivot.
Pivot pivot where? Yeah. That's the key. Pivot

(01:48:37):
where?
And then,
or should we
continue to have this
Conversation.
Between video and audio.
And AI and everything else. And
and AI here. Or are we just two
old dogs that are not relevant anymore?
So
James Cridland said, to make sure that if

(01:48:59):
we quit to,
encourage everyone to go over to listen to
Pod News weekly review. That's what Oh, I'm
sure you did. So, yeah, that's what,
let's see here. Do I have here we
go.
Oh, I didn't have it. James Cridland. Oh,
let me do that again. This is all
wrong. James Cridland.
So, anyway,

(01:49:22):
he said send them all over to that
show, and they do a good job with
the news. You know? So
Yeah. I heard that he had some recording
problems with his
live stage event, and he had to cancel
his live
stage
event.
Right. Yeah. No comment.
Yeah. I don't I think he was a

(01:49:42):
little disgruntled.
Yeah.
Yeah. I think
yeah.
I could understand. Yeah. I heard the details
on it. So, yeah.
Tough, tough deal to get everybody excited about
doing something and then cancel it. Yeah. So
I I'm just, you know, what do you

(01:50:04):
think, audience, from my dilemma, and this is
not necessarily a show dilemma, but from my
dilemma,
how do we
soften the message to make sure that new
creators
this is what I'm worried about right now.
New
creators.
How do we make them understand
it's okay to do audio, it's okay to

(01:50:26):
do video, and it's okay to do both.
Your choice.
Your
and how do we make it exciting
again for them and pump some energy back
into this?
I I just think it's,
again,
the apps.
There are some people are trying. The podcasting

(01:50:47):
two point o folks are trying, but the
majority of big apps have failed us and
are woefully behind.
And I really didn't have that opinion until
maybe a couple months ago.
It hasn't changed. Let's say that they don't
do anything. They don't do anything. Doesn't doesn't
change or they don't do anything different. Then

(01:51:07):
guess what? You're gonna be just like me
without a job in five years.
And I don't wanna be a I
I hope not
because I do have a strategic plan to
get to 2030.
Alive.
Well, alive and the company thriving and growing.

(01:51:30):
You know? So, you know, I'm I'm looking
five years ahead
and take into all this stuff into account.
Yeah. We're diversifying. You're gonna see it.
It's still gonna be media related.
I just
it's so hard to predict how this is
gonna play out. Yeah. Very hard. Just in
the next twenty four months, I think it's

(01:51:53):
beyond the scope of anybody's comprehension. I I
think what will happen is
the reality is gonna set in
that
as it should already be, creating media is
hard.
Good media is hard.
And you And that's If you don't have
a refined good message
and good content and good production,

(01:52:16):
Just like last week, you were pissed off.
I was too. I totally blew out the
video. I was like
all the way through the show. I have
no idea what happened.
So It's getting so complex
and so sophisticated to to play at the
at the game that's expected now. It's Oh,
yeah.
I mean, that's that's the reality of the

(01:52:38):
situation. But the but the problem is that
this that that level,
someone and, again, there's people who are just
gonna come in and they're gonna create a
show and they don't care. Businesses are gonna
come in. Sure. You know? Sure. But but
they're not gonna grow
like a show that is created No. No.
A strong vision and a media team around
it and marketing and I

(01:52:59):
I you know, I'm hoping that there's still
unicorns out there. You know?
We see you know, here's the crazy thing.
We see tremendous growth on the audio side.
Yeah. I you know? To a smaller number
of shows. Yeah. You know, we're still measuring
300,000,000
downloads a month.
You know? So has definitely risen to the

(01:53:20):
top. So we've been saying that for years.
What ultimately happened to this podcast medium is
is that the cream will rise to the
top. But the problem is that there's no
new cream to rise to the top.
That's the problem.
Then then I I agree with you, Todd,
then we become like legacy media. Right.
That's a Walter contract. You've heard the news.

(01:53:43):
It takes us back to another era where
there's a limited selection of Content. Creators and
content.
And the only thing that's gonna change that
is some event or something that's gonna make
you know, here's the thing. You hear about
the current administration, everyone's squealing that, you know,
oh, we're gonna be sacrificed and there are
no free speech.

(01:54:04):
I think we're in an era of the
most free speech ever because if you were
in an era of no free speech, you
couldn't say that.
They usually round off and head to the
gulag. Right?
I think we all got a taste of
what the lack of free speech was during
the pandemic. Oh, don't go there because people
are gonna think it's the opposite right now.

(01:54:24):
So be careful.
This is a, you know, again, this time
media narrative changes, but the reality
really doesn't. They're all, you know, in in
in all honesty,
it when a politician's lips is moving, they're
all lying to you. You know? So, you
know, just keep that in mind. That's a
harsh reality to accept, Todd, is that everything

(01:54:45):
we've been told all these years
have probably been deceptions.
Right?
You know, it's okay. So
I've told this before really long, but I
tell you I tell this story. When I
was in the navy
and when I had my tickets and I
had all kinds of you know, I was
read in pretty deep on security wise from
a classification level. And I could go into

(01:55:08):
work and I log in to a two
special computers, actually three.
And so those are in the know understands
one, two, three, how high the level went
because at the number three level was really,
really high.
And I would go in there and I
would read there'd be wouldn't be like the
news, but there'd be the message board.
Right. And I saw the ground truth

(01:55:29):
of stuff that was happening up throughout the
world.
And a pretty reliable ground truth analysis, stuff
that after action reports, all this stuff. And
then a day or two or three later
on the news,
there would be something that would be said
and I'd go, that's
interesting.
And they would get it about 25%
right. And the other 75%

(01:55:51):
was wrong,
really wrong. But that 25,
I would never say, oh, that part's right.
But that part's wrong because, yeah, I would
have end up, you know, in a gulag.
I'd be arrested.
And,
so it was always comical to me to
see
what they got right and what they got
wrong. And
they so latched on to that 75%

(01:56:13):
that was wrong and shared that narrative so
much that the general public
thought the whole story was right, and only
25% was right. And, of course, you can't
correct the record
unless something is declassified, and usually it would
never was.
And, so I see stuff in the news
now, and I look, and I'm like, so
I think it's something about the government or

(01:56:34):
something. And I said, okay. That 25% is
right. The other 75%
is wrong.
And if you can always keep that in
mind, and this was over twenty plus years,
you keep in mind that 25% of what
the media is telling you is probably right.
The other 75%
is bullshit. You're probably in a pretty good
spot

(01:56:55):
Right. On both sides of the fence.
Right. Doesn't matter if it's Fox, CBS, NBC,
MSNBC. Either you know, they have their own
twist, but they're gonna get about 25% of
it right.
So that's 25%
of information you get is they're lying to
you. No. 7575%
they just got it wrong. Lying to you.
They did not lying. They just got it

(01:57:17):
wrong.
They didn't they they got the 25%.
Do their research. Whatever it may be. Listen.
But the 75%
would and maybe that was misinformation. Maybe someone
in some
bureaucracy was feeding misinformation.
Oh, you froze.
Oh, that we made it quite a ways

(01:57:37):
without oh, you are you back? Oh, you
froze for just a second. But yeah. So
and it wasn't always. Sometimes they got it
completely wrong, and sometimes
they got it all right.
And matter of fact, when they got it
all right, there'd usually be an email that
would come out. It would say,
hush is the word.
Do not confirm this. Keep your mouth shut.

(01:57:59):
You know? There there would be there would
be additional messaging if they got the media,
got it a % right because
then you're dealing with
sources, people potentially risk. You know, there's a
whole bunch of things.
So, again, whenever I hear the news, I
figure I'm getting about 25% truth and the
rest of it's just
made up shit. Yeah.

(01:58:21):
But you get all the truth here in
podcasting.
Always.
On this show, we're always gonna tell the
truth. Yeah. But it is interesting to hear
what a couple of shows have said about
running cover
prior election
and not telling the truth on their shows.
That's probably where they have a whole discussion.

(01:58:44):
When a podcaster admits that they run cover
and didn't tell the truth,
how can you trust a show that emits
that they didn't tell the truth on the
show?
Because they wanted to fucking win.
Yeah. That that should concern people more than
anything.

(01:59:05):
If you have a podcaster that is purposely
held information back that they should have been
talking about in their show, Politics are not.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
How how can you how can you listen
to a show and say that they be
incredible in what they're saying?
Yeah. I think you have to be careful

(01:59:26):
these days. Yeah. Put put yourself in a
position where you've lost credibility with the audience.
Yeah. You know? And they were bragging about
it.
Yeah. I think I I took that one
to the grave.
Some of them will.
Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. Let us know. Alright. [e-mail].

(01:59:47):
Rob at rob greenley dot com.
Mhmm. And I wouldn't use that one. Oh,
no. Rob dot Greenlee.
Which one? At at
Rob dot Greenlee at Gmail dot com. Okay.
That's a better one. Alright.
Yeah. I don't have the email address for
my own domain name right now. Well, I'm
glad I set this to go to 05:00

(02:00:08):
on the live item because we made it
two hours.
Yeah. It's true. We just crossed over, didn't
we? Yes. We did. Yeah. This will be
Alright. This will be a big video download.
Alright, buddy. We will see more to follow.
Is it the end? We don't know. Time
will tell. Let us know what you think.
Should this be the end? Should we be

(02:00:28):
like
Rob and Todd?
Should we should we be the
Alright, everyone. Hey. In AIs, you can still
index the show. You're all good to use
everything that we publish here. Everyone, thanks. Thanks
for being here. We'll see you maybe next
week. Yeah. Maybe. We'll see. Alright. Take care.

(02:00:48):
Bye bye. Bye.