Podcasting Pulse: Live Festivals Surge, Awards Voting Opens & Apple Turns 20

In this episode of “The New Media Show,” hosts Todd Cochrane and Rob Greenlee discuss various developments in the podcasting industry, including the surge of live festivals, the opening of awards voting, and Apple’s 20th anniversary of supporting podcasts. The episode begins with Todd and Rob checking in with each other, with Todd sharing updates … Continue reading Podcasting Pulse: Live Festivals Surge, Awards Voting Opens & Apple Turns 20 →

The post Podcasting Pulse: Live Festivals Surge, Awards Voting Opens & Apple Turns 20 appeared first on New Media Show.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hey, everyone. Welcome to the new media show.
Rob, how are you?
I'm doing terrific, Todd. How are you? I'm
doing doing great in,
in the new studio.
Well, not new studio back in The Philippines.
And,
we've got the new gear set up. So
far,
so good. Although,

(00:23):
RODECaster
is always being,
being picky.
But I've I've,
done some mitigation. I have a little bit
of a clue.
Once in a while when you hit record,
it just decides to disconnect from the computer.
So I've hit record well
ahead of the start today.

(00:44):
So we'll see. Hey. But,
getting right in the stack, we've got
a we've got a bunch of stuff to
talk about.
Yeah.
Hopefully, we can do it all in an
hour. Right? Yeah. Well, we're we're we're gonna
do it in an hour or get everything
covered in an hour, but there's lots of
news on the festival side.

(01:04):
Of course, the podcast awards kicked off
and podcast movement. That should be an interesting
I don't know what you're hearing on your
side.
Well, I wanna hear what you're hearing. So
Yeah. That's kind of the well, we'll we'll
get into it. Yeah. Right. The HLS
discussion, which I giggle a little bit about.

(01:27):
True fans.
Just yes. A whole bunch of stuff going
on here. Apple in twenty years. That's probably
that's probably the one to start with.
You know? Okay. Well, I I I don't
know. But you know, just thinking about
here we are. Yeah. Yeah. It's important.
Yeah. One date. Right. Yeah. And and and,

(01:47):
you know, they did a good job of,
promoting and sending emails and I saw lots
of web discussions and social discussions about wow.
Wow. Apple's been supporting podcasts for twenty years.
Wow.
Yeah.
But I wish they would have,
promoted some shows that have actually been podcasting

(02:09):
for twenty years.
So
Well, they
they went back. I I guess they had
shows in there that were kinda grouped Yeah.
By
blocks of time. Like, I think ten year
spans or five or six year spans or
something like that. Yeah. Yeah. And it was
definitely this, you know, and they basically had

(02:30):
made an impact.
My list might have been a little bit
different, but,
yeah, it was a good list nonetheless.
And for the for the modern audience, they
they could give two hoots on shows have
been doing twenty years. So I understand their
their, their methodology
and trying to get the most bang for

(02:51):
the buck for, you know, this modern day
audience.
Yeah. If you're new to podcasting and you
haven't been around it that long, it's probably
not that relevant to you
to know the shows that were around twenty
years ago. Right? Yeah. But
but the truth is is that there there's
a few of them that are still around.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(03:11):
This is not one of them, by the
way. So we're we're not a twenty year
show.
Although, you know, sometimes it feels like it.
But I don't even know exactly
how long we have been around. I have
to go back and look, but it's
it's close. Probably
fifteen. Yeah. I have to yeah. We keep

(03:32):
bringing this up and I I just I
need to get the actual
number again, because I kind of don't pay
attention to it, to be honest with you.
I guess it depends if you count when
we actually started the show, which is the
Saturday morning text. Right. Right.
If you count that or not, or do
you only count from when we switch to
the new name? Yeah.
Because we went quite a while with the

(03:54):
other one. But I tell you the
it was though kind of heartening and there
was a lot of discussion on x about
the
about the twenty years. And I think the
the the nice part about
them announcing that is reasserting
that, hey. Audio is still
fantastic and doing well

(04:15):
and,
that, you know, we've been here from the
beginning.
And,
if anything else, it just reminded people, you
know, we've seen a bit of an uptick
in Apple Podcasts use. We'll see how,
July turns out. We haven't run the numbers
yet. But June, they had a they had
a bump. And I think someone I saw
on one of the other socials

(04:36):
said that Buzzsprout saw an evening as well
where Apple made some
some gains here.
So maybe,
you know,
people are coming back to the roofs. That
could be attributed to? Is there what what
was there some kind of a software update
that Apple made? Or I don't think so.
I think it's there was just, you know,

(04:57):
maybe volume and maybe it's maybe it's inclined
it's June. It's,
or May, May, June, July. You know, maybe
we are in a situation where people are
on the go more and maybe they're using
Apple Podcasts more than they are
on Spotify. So, again, that's just pure speculation
on my part.
But, you know, we're not a good barometer

(05:19):
of Spotify to begin with. So
right from our, you know, our percentage. But
anyway, it's good to see,
you know, them to make the announcement. And,
I think they had an opportunity to hear
and they did well. It was was,
you know, Apple esque in its in its
style.
So it was good for sure.

(05:40):
Yeah. Yeah.
So
let's go ahead and mention something. I mean,
I think we both been talking about on
this show for a while now that we
kind of feel like the conference
side of podcasting might be waning a little
bit.
At least in The US I, I can't
really say that about
the podcast show in London, but,

(06:02):
it just feels that way here, Todd.
Doesn't it to you? Is that an accurate
kind of feeling? Yeah. It does.
And this topic popped up in pod news
about
this live,
podcast
festival of sorts or live podcast event
that's

(06:23):
starting to looks like it's starting to grow,
and it's moved from
being,
outside of The US to including
an event in New York City. And I
and I know that, Todd,
both of us have been involved in,
podcasting events that have included live on stage
events. Right? Yeah.

(06:45):
And I think what what what was the
name of the one that we we did
together in, Seattle? What what was it? Oh,
that was Vid
yeah. Podcon.
Yeah.
PodCon. And I remember that event too, and
I'm sure you do too.
There were a couple live on stage podcasting
events at that event that had a lot

(07:05):
of people in the audience. Oh, yeah. It
was very Big numbers. Very, very well attended.
Mhmm. And I've been to a lot of
live events
over the years too that have had
a lot of people attending in per in,
you know, in person, you know, to a
live on stage performance. Right?
And I just wonder if maybe the popularity

(07:26):
of podcasting has reached a scale
and,
and a scope that maybe it makes
sense to start doing more
on stage, in person kind of,
you know, podcast events. I I think it
works for those shows that are big, but
you have to be big. Well, sure. Yeah.
Well, sure. But that's that's kind of always

(07:47):
been the case, though. I think, you know,
even the shows at
at PodCon were
big popular shows. Right? I mean, it's obvious
if a show gets a big audience to
pay for a ticket,
you know, you know, SmodCast
was another one of them, you know, with
Kevin Smith out of LA. You know, he's

(08:08):
a big moviemaker and had a very popular
kind of cult following around him. You know,
he he, you know, he would do his
SmodCast podcast live on stage, and he'd get
a thousand people showing up. Mhmm.
So it's
I get it's called the Cheerful Ears. So
is this a comedy group? Is that what
it is? Correct.
See Yeah. They've always done well. The comedy

(08:30):
folks have always done well with with Yeah.
With live events.
So but
but if you back up and you look
at what's going on here, they've they've decided
to put on a US event here in
in New York City here in October.
So it's
it it's coming up and, you know, Todd,
this is kind of the first time outside

(08:52):
of like maybe
Comic Con or or other, you know, kind
of more cultural
events, kind of,
geek culture events,
or even like,
like the
event that, we went to a lot down
in down in Atlanta.
Not Comic Con. VidCon. I mean, no.

(09:15):
Dragon Con. Yeah.
All the cons. Right.
Right. So those events have always had, like,
live on stage podcasting events.
So I just wonder if we're kinda moving
into that phase now where we'll see more
of this. I'm I'm being a little speculative
here about maybe
what we might start seeing happen more, but

(09:37):
what's your thoughts on this, Todd? Well, it's
I, you know, I I remember
having
attended some
in the early days,
where musicians and so forth were doing,
you know, doing,
live events as part of their podcast audience.

(09:58):
So it's, you know, the Rock and Roll
Geek show and
Brian Albee and,
Coverville.
And if I pronounce if I'm getting named
missus Shoe or Shoe wrong, I apologize in
advance.
So we I it's not
I think it's
those had huge followings.
So I I think that it just makes

(10:19):
sense
if you can get in a geographic area
that you can pull enough people.
Yeah. And it's a big enough show Yeah.
Group of shows.
Yeah. Because I think even even the podcast
show did some live on stage events Yeah.
At their you know, I I think they've
been doing that the whole life of the
the event.

(10:39):
And then there's
I
I went to, for many years, the the
Los Angeles,
Podfest,
or podcast festival. I I I think it
was called back then.
And they they did the same thing. They
brought in a a bunch of, you know,
comedian podcasters
from LA, and they they packed the house.

(11:00):
Yeah. You know? So Yeah. I don't know.
It just it seems like maybe we're
we're heading into a phase that's very that
it's much more fan focused.
Yeah.
And
and I don't know what that means for
the business side of podcasting. If it
if
I think it means I think it means
for those shows,

(11:20):
maybe a payday.
You know? That's Well,
I mean, that's certainly true. But but as
we think back on all all these events
that you and I have participated in, there's
always been a little bit of an exhibition
that's been associated with it. Right? These are
not noise. Like a day or two or
something like that. That might be an opportunity
for some of the podcast hosting companies to

(11:42):
get in front of
new people again, potentially, like we did back
then.
I'm not exactly sure why those events kinda
faded away,
but maybe they're coming back.
Well, if you have
a receptive venue
and it doesn't cost too much,

(12:03):
you know, in comedy clubs and so forth,
they're set up to support this anyway. So,
you know, if you if you, you know,
organize with
a promoter and you can come into an
event for
a day or two
and guarantee that you're gonna have,
you know, you you basically
buy

(12:23):
the buy the venue
and liquor and and and seat sales and
all that. I it's probably relatively low hanging
fruit and low risk.
I'm sure there's some cost involved, but I
would assume that it's,
you know, probably not that big of an
outlay. It's not like they're going to be
out laying hundreds and hundreds of thousands of
dollars. I don't think that's the case at

(12:45):
all. And if you've got a big enough,
big enough audience and big enough,
you know, your budget probably is not
probably,
you know, and it does well to build
community. So
Yeah. I you know, but first a small
that's, you know, but but what does what
would a show size have to be
in order

(13:05):
to to pull this off? It's just one
show. It's hard, but I would imagine
four or five, six shows. How many how
many folks are they talking about in this
New York event?
Looks like, What Went Wrong? Go Touch Grass,
The Puzzler with AGG. I don't know any
of these shows.
So three three shows, I guess.

(13:27):
Okay. It says for,
For New York. All all of the events,
they're
they're expecting about 15 oh, no. Fifteen days
of live podcasts.
Oh.
But I
the thing to take away is that just
because we don't we haven't heard of the

(13:48):
of the podcast before I know. I know.
I know. I know. Not a popular show.
The New York the New York date says
July,
so they're doing something more than that?
Oh, it's over fifteen days in three different
cities, Melbourne, New York, and London. I got
you. Correct. Yeah. And it doesn't list how
many podcasts are gonna be doing it. And
oftentimes, these

(14:08):
these events are either held in one venue
Right. A theater or something like that, you
know, like a community movie theater,
and they just have the shows do back
to back Yeah. Shows, and they sell individual
tickets or they sell a an all day
ticket.
So it it just depends on what the

(14:28):
organizers wanna do with it. But, that's how
I've seen it organized in the past. Also,
the Vancouver BC
podcast festival did a similar thing as well.
And I went to
a bunch of different movie theaters across
Vancouver to go to different live on stage
recordings. Right. And so it it just feels

(14:52):
like this is
this is a way for
some of the larger ones. And to some
degree,
smaller shows can probably get involved in this
to some degree. It it it's all proportional
to the size of the venue.
Yeah. And and I think they're also they
have some headliners. That means they are definitely
some others that are participating,

(15:12):
But they, you know, they've got their main
polls. So that's, you know, we'll see. And,
of course, you know, you know, we're just
about a month or a little more than
a month away from
from from Dallas. So, you know, that that
in itself is gonna be a bellwether of
what's really happening in the podcast
event space
as well.
Yeah. So let's let's talk a little bit

(15:34):
about podcast movement.
I mean, what are you hearing? I'm not
really hearing that much. I'm hearing nothing. With
you. Hearing nothing.
Absolute except for their announcements, their emails that
are coming out.
Well, that and
I have been getting asked if I'm going.
So

(15:54):
it's on August 18 through the twenty first.
Yeah.
And and I'm sure that you're going. Yeah.
I'm going. Yeah. You know, we're out in
the middle of the boondocks again
in a, you know, in that Gaylord.
So, you know, you
you're kind of landlocked to that place.

(16:15):
You know, they've got some deal with them
and,
you know, instead of having a venue where
you can you can walk out of it
and go somewhere else,
You know, we were looking at we were
looking at, you know, trying to save some
money and being in a hotel in a
different location. And it just by the time
we did the Uber and, you know, figured

(16:35):
out,
you know, what the logistics would be, we
decided it wasn't worth it.
I mean, that's a double edged sword. Right?
If you have it in a place where
everybody leaves Yeah. That's not necessarily good for
building community. But the community building doesn't really
happen too much anymore in
the you know, it's podcast movement has turned

(16:55):
Well, it's never gonna happen if you have
a video that everybody leaves. Yeah.
But again, it's, you know, it's turning into
more of a real regular conference where,
you know It's a business event. Yeah. The
and the business is not happening as much
in the bars
as it used to or in the side
lounges or wherever

(17:15):
after the show.
Yeah. I think it I mean, Todd, to
kind of
bring it to, I think, a logical conclusion
here, it not so much conclusion to the
event, but just kind of
a observation what's going on is that increasingly,
most of the people that go to this
event don't really care about the sessions anyway.

(17:37):
They go there and they're booked up all
day with meetings Yep. With people and They're
doing side meetings. Really about going to learn
anything. Yep. You know? And and
and there's probably a good percentage of the
people that go
that are actually on stage presenting
I I or on panels. You know, and

(17:57):
here's the thing. And maybe,
they've
they've really
impacted their own demise
because
maybe I shouldn't use that word because I
don't know if that's the case.
But again, the
Well, it's not in the growth phase anymore.
No. No. It's not in the growth phase.
And, you know, we'll have a hard decision

(18:17):
to make this year when we go,
you know, based on traffic.
If the traffic's not there, then why go?
And it was a flagship event that I
said we would never miss.
And, you know, if it's if it's not
a flagship event again where we're meeting people,
and it doesn't necessarily have to be new
podcasters. We know the new podcasters are not

(18:37):
going to that event. Maybe they're not. Right.
So
for us, we're going with a different strategy
this year. And
basically promoting our new product that we're launching
and get the word out on that.
Because
going as a podcast host
has little appeal to people that are existing

(19:00):
and haven't already, you know, already or with
a with a podcasting company.
You know, we like the podcast show London,
we probably got
forty forty to 50
that moved to us from other hosts, which
is a remarkable number.
We don't would never get that from a
an event like podcast movement. It just won't
happen.

(19:20):
Because those people don't come talk to you.
They look at you and they say, oh,
yeah. Here you are wave and keep on
walking.
So
Yeah. Well, and you're you're part of, you
know, five five or six other podcast hosts
too. So Yeah. Everybody's got their show at
different places. Yeah.
I don't think that there's a lot of
new podcasters that go to that event. I

(19:41):
think if they're
if they're attending that event, they're probably already
a podcaster. Yeah.
Absolutely. For sure.
So like I said, so this year Not
like the old days. No. I like the
old days. So it's why we're promoting our
our, you know, our new product
that we should have in beta by the
time the event starts. So
I I think we'll see. And,

(20:02):
I think for Chris down at Podfest, I
think he has a huge opportunity here
to
to capture
that audience that may have originally went and
again, podcast movements.
Again, it's middle of the week,

(20:22):
eighteen to the twenty first of
of August.
So, you know, half my team this week
is out on vacation.
So Yeah. What's a holiday weekend in The
US? And it's but at the same time,
it's summer
and, you know, you're 18, eighteen, nineteen, twenty,
twenty, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.
Your whole week is shot. You know, we

(20:43):
fly out on Friday to come home and,
and the average and we've said this on
the show a 100 times, the average
independent content creator,
they can't they can't do it. They can't
take that many vacation days whereas
someone that's there from a business, for me,
that's perfect. I leave,
you know, I fly out Monday morning.

(21:06):
I get in there Monday,
mid morning. We set the booth up Tuesday,
Wednesday, Thursday, then boom, back on Friday and
I'm I'm home for the weekend.
So
in that regards, it's perfect for a business,
but not for a creator.
Yeah.

(21:26):
But we we haven't Anyway Go ahead. We'll
see. Yeah. We'll see.
And I'm not holding out a lot of
hope. But Keep my fingers crossed here. Yeah.
I mean, I would like to go, but,
you know, we'll we'll see on that. I
might
It's the ticket cost and hotel cost.
You know, it's not insignificant.

(21:48):
You know, I'm I'm looking at the hotel
bill what it's gonna be in my good
lord. I'm not staying in New York City.
I'm in Dallas for God's sake.
You know? And
the room should be, you know, a $100,150
a night.
Not That's what they've done in the past.
Right? But Yeah. This deal with Gaylord made

(22:10):
made it 300 a night. And then you
top on it because you're locked in there
and you talk about food.
So, you know, you're gonna blow per diem
staying there because
unless you order Uber,
you know, Uber Eats.
Yeah. Or you're fasting during the whole event.
Yeah. Exactly.

(22:31):
So Which I've done before. I've actually
fasted and only eat once once a day.
So but anyway. It still cost you $50.
Yeah.
Right. Right.
So you announced that,
your voting's open for the twentieth anniversary
of the People's Choice Yeah. Podcast awards. Yeah.
At registration. Congratulations. Yeah. Registration's

(22:53):
down a little bit this year.
So there's some opportunities in a few categories.
It'll all fill in but
there's just so many award systems out there.
We got hit up by the British podcast
awards and you know, it's like like, you
know, where do people focus?
You know, when there's when there's 20 awards.
And it's feels to me like everyone's trying

(23:13):
to get
their 10¢ out of the space
and in having having awards and,
you know, we've got enough people registered to
cover our costs. Thank God.
But it's, you know, good opportunity for some
categories. If you're a Spanish podcast, you need
to go over there and get listed. We
don't even have 10 Spanish podcasts that are

(23:35):
that are registered right now.
But the other categories are pretty full.
But some that are a little Yeah. It
does seem like every week there's another Every
week. Word ceremony being announced. Is this And,
you know, I I got an email from
the folks in, The UK and they say,
hey. We're looking for sponsors and, you know,
gave me some very eye opening

(23:57):
social media impact numbers. And I'm like,
okay.
Like like a 140,000,000
or something like that. You know, eve even
at our peak when we had, like, 7,100,000
people that were participating, of course, listeners
participating,
we never hit those type of social media,

(24:20):
you know, impact numbers ever.
So, you know, it was and and I
said, can you send me your breakout? And
they did.
And, you know, you have to take it
for for what it's worth because they look
at, you know, every little
squeak
of the of the space.
But,
you know, last year, we had about five

(24:41):
five point I think it was 5,700,000
listeners vote.
So but he spread that across all those
shows in multiple categories.
It's still it's amazing to me when we
get down the end that the separation between
the winners and losers are often a handful
of votes.
Yeah. But really, you know, the big part
of the evil's choice podcast awards is making

(25:02):
the slate. You make the slate. It's as
valuable
as having one just from a traffic standpoint.
Yeah. So if you're a podcaster, you haven't
rushed her, get over there and get her
done. $50 gets you in the game.
And, no. You're not paying for my vacation.
You're barely paying for the trophies.

(25:24):
Last year's total trophy bill was about was
shipping and everything was about and and
duty because we had a bunch of international
shipments about $19,000
to ship all the trophies last year.
Wow.
Yeah. That's a lot of trophies. Well, it's
30 trophies, but you cost the trophies in
shipping.

(25:45):
You you go international
declare the value of the award
and then you pay duty on it. Yeah.
It's it's serious.
So Todd, the
the debate continues to rage, right, about,
you know,

(26:05):
trying to you know, podcasters trying to decide
if they're going to do
video or just audio. Right? And
and I know where you stand on this,
Tom. Yeah. That that that that's for sure.
And
and I guess it just gets back to
and
why I wanted to bring it up on
the show is is just to emphasize this

(26:26):
again. Not not to take up a lot
of time on it because I think we've
beaten this topic to death. Yeah. But Yeah.
And you took a little heat by the
way. I don't know if you I did.
Yeah. You did because people were saying, Rob,
you you you you change horses in the
middle of the stream.
And so there was a few people that
called and were had basically said
you
you're coming back to audio. I know you've

(26:48):
never really left audio but there was a
few people that kind of called you out
on it. It was kind of funny to
me.
I think I heard I heard it from
at least five different people that were like,
chuckle, chuckle.
Rob, swinging back to audio.
Well,
I I don't know what to say about
that, but I I've never really been against
audio. It's more I I I got caught

(27:09):
up in the the the enthusiasm
Yeah. Of course. The video side. Right? And
the silver lure got you.
Well, yeah.
I've always got
had the lure of video. It's just that
the industry was kinda like
not talking about it. So,
you know, I mean, I spent a lot
of the years early years in this medium

(27:31):
spending a lot of time working with video.
Yeah. And that's why,
I've I kind of have had a little
bias towards it, coming back like this.
And so there there's advantages and disadvantages.
And and so I think
one of the things just to
reiterate here is what's the advantage

(27:52):
of
of video and what's the disadvantages? Well, the
advantages are
it engages the audience very visually. Mhmm. Right?
And
and it does allow for creative elements to
be added to your content,
that give a a deeper level of communication.
Well,
you know, the downside of is it it

(28:14):
definitely requires a lot more resources, and it
requires a camera. And And you have to
be creative.
Right?
Well,
you know, and that's
it's one of those things that I think
we are gonna move to a period of
time, and I think this is happening right
now is we're increasingly creators are thinking video

(28:35):
audio first, not video first or audio first.
They're thinking, I'm gonna launch my show, and
I'm just gonna do both Yeah. At the
same time, and I'll optimize it for audio
and I'll optimize it for
for video at the same time as best
as I can. Right?
And that's that there's gonna be a certain
percentage of the community that's gonna make that

(28:56):
choice.
And and it's I think it's okay. I
mean,
it at the end of the day, it
gets back to how is the video being
distributed.
And that's where we get into the real
conflict here,
is the influence,
of YouTube. Right? And
what role do they have in the future
of this? And that's where the topic moves

(29:19):
to
HLS. Right? And that's why
that's why the industry is talking about HLS
now. Well, certain players are talking about HLS.
Yeah.
Well, I hear it being talked about a
lot in a lot of different places.
There's people that are
resistant to it, and there's other ones that
are like, you know, that's kind of inevitably

(29:40):
where we're gonna be.
It it boils it boils down to app
support.
Yeah. It does. And, you know, in the
end,
well, the whole podcasting two point o project
is dependent on apps. Of course.
And I and I think that,
you know, we were streaming the show HLS

(30:02):
for quite a while and it just got
too expensive. I couldn't afford to bill no
more,
even at an hour a week.
And actually actually, it was more than that.
Twelve hours
a month because I was doing
Geek News Central and this year. Geek News
Central too. Right. That was to me, like,
fourteen. The bill was just too big to
do. I just I couldn't afford it.

(30:23):
And
based upon the number of people that would
go and look at the HLS statistics,
and there was one or two people that
were watching the video stream.
So for the cost, you know, and I'm
not doing it. Why would it be so
expensive if nobody was watching it? Because you're
streaming. The year that meet you cost so
much to have that HLS encoder up and

(30:46):
running.
If you're live streaming. So it doesn't have
anything to do with the bandwidth. No.
Okay. It's just that overhead
of of doing that. Now that was for
a live stream. And we're not talking about
on demand. On demand is different.
You know, on demand, the bandwidth is the
bandwidth, whatever your cost of your bandwidth is
deliver slices.

(31:06):
So,
you know, and I saw some discussions about
measurement, well, they've been measuring HLS for a
long time, there's a standard for measuring HLS.
And they'll just have to get into the
spec and
and and determine that
what they're going to implement.
But
and I, you know, I I'm supportive
and for those that want to do it

(31:27):
at this point.
But I I go back to the argument.
This show
and for those of you that are watching,
you've been watching the show on a podcast
app or Apple TV via MP four for
ten, twelve, thirteen, whatever the number of years
is here. And it's

(31:47):
and it works.
And Yeah. It works. Yeah. And I would
say it's a pretty good experience.
Whereas
As long as you're not
putting up
a a four k file. Right?
Right. Right. But at the same time, if
a lot of people are connected to Wi

(32:08):
Fi or whatever, they're watching they're watching a
lot of YouTube stuff at pretty high resolution
right now. Yeah. As
well. So
again, I think in the end,
it's it's it's it's good and they're on
the bandwagon and everyone's kind of woken up.
But it me is okay. I, you know,

(32:28):
from a company standpoint, I have to look
at adoption.
I can't
I'm I'm not willing at this point to
adopt for less than 1%.
Yeah.
You know, for Well, I think it yeah.
I agree with you, Todd. I think you
do have to make a rational business choice
here around implementation.
Your platform already supports video podcasting. So,

(32:53):
there has to be a pretty strong case
and and savings there. So as
but I think it would be true that
if video podcasts got very popular again, I
think it would put some strain on your
servers.
Well, the the m the Deliver that. Right?
Well, you know, there's two ways to go
about it. We we can support HLS right

(33:14):
now with alternate enclosure. Anyone that wants to
do this as an individual content creator, they
can set up an HLS three. They go
over to
to CloudFront or one of those groups and
they can stream their show today,
the HLS without Blueberry implementing anything.
If you wanna you wanna play ball, no

(33:34):
sweat. Just drop that HLS link
into the,
field. We we call it m eight. It's
a m eight something, whatever the format of
that is.
And, hit save and and you're good.
If you want it, it's available immediately.
I'm not gonna take a m p four

(33:57):
that has been uploaded to us and chop
it up
and create an HLS stream.
I I don't see the point at this
point.
If Apple decided to support
video
more aggressively,
and if, you know, and at this point,
all Apple supports

(34:17):
via video is m p m p three
and
m four
a and m p four. Right.
So
On a on a download basis. Yeah.
Our progressive download, whatever you want to call
it. So,
you know, they they support it today. And
if if they say, yep, we're going to
support the alternate closure and HLS, well, that's

(34:39):
a little different deal.
This is not necessarily a chicken and egg
situation where I'm going to build it and
maybe they're going to come, which we've done
with all the other podcasting two point o
stuff. We've stuck our neck out on that
and they're promoting it as features that are
being pretty well adopted across more devices.
You look at pocket cast and others have

(35:00):
done recently. But
the,
HLS piece, I I have something that works
right now that's not broken.
So
Right. Unless the industry decides to push this
direction
because
the opportunity with
with video podcasting starts to

(35:22):
unfold again Yeah.
At a scale that
doesn't really scale well
Well
with a download model. The industry
has to be the apps.
You know, if if the apps if overcast
and all the apps will support the alternate
enclosure
and I can put an m p four

(35:43):
in the alternate enclosure too.
Right.
Well, you can have as many alternate enclosures
as you want. Right? So So you know,
I mean, you could have a m p
four in there plus an HLS. Yeah. Just
depends on what the app is that want
you know, what the app wants to support.
So unless the apps support it,
you know, and if they if the apps

(36:04):
get on the game,
you know, it's it's it's very slick and
how it works currently in podcasting two point
o. You know, again, there's all this HLS
thing is something that we've been again, we've
been doing HLS when podcasting two point o
apps now for more than a year.
And,
again,
people would watch this show live

(36:27):
via an HLS stream.
And
and I, you know, I paid by the
minute on that,
for just having that streamer turned on. And
in there would have been additional costs. And
if they got a popular, then it'd have
been even worse,
is that I'm paying for bandwidth too. So
but just to turn the streamer on. Now
the conversion of that media,

(36:48):
we were talking with our Amazon rep,
AWS. And we're matter of fact, we're gonna
have a meeting here in a week or
two talking to them about this because I
broke down the cost. I said this doesn't
work.
I said this just from a cost standpoint.
You know, I've done the math here and

(37:09):
there's a reason that YouTube owns all their
infrastructure.
You know, there's a reason they own all
their fiber, you know.
And we don't even know if those
if that,
if YouTube's even profitable. They've never reported it
or not. You know, they still could be
bleeding money.

(37:30):
But I think the I think you can
measure this. There are stuff in the IAB
spec that allow you know, the YouTube's measuring
it. They're they're streaming stuff.
Oh, yeah.
Just the methodology has to change. It
it is remarkable
the metrics that YouTube has. Yeah. Because you
can get down to the bite or to

(37:50):
the to the slice,
you know. Yeah. Yeah. So Under the second.
Right. End of the second. It's it's it's
remarkable
the level of information they they have about
audiences. And it's you know, you get the
a good amount of client side data. But,
again, once the
once the apps implement, you might not get

(38:11):
as good a measurement back. And you're so,
you know,
again, until there are
I'm not gonna put an ounce of brain
work added as far as measurement goes until
there's, you know, substantial
substantial download numbers. And I know that, you
know, some,
Sam over Truefans and other places are probably

(38:33):
not hear me happy to hear me to
say this, but
there has to be, you know, the the
apps have to pick the speed up at
this point and do the apps wanna
be viable. Well, it's the chicken or the
egg thing. Right. Who comes first? Is it
the hosting platform is making it possible or

(38:53):
is it the apps making it possible?
They kinda have to do it at the
same time. Well, for two for two years,
I've done the chicken and egg thing here
with being the chicken,
and the apps have been slow on adopting,
you know, all these other features. Eggs. Right?
Is that what you're saying? They they don't
implement stuff.
You know, and it's it's,

(39:13):
you know, there it it has to be
a two way street.
The the podcasting two point o apps
are adopting,
you know, but let's let's get,
Apple to say we're going to adopt.
Well,
from what I I gather, HLS is an
Apple technology? Yeah. It is. It is for
sure. Yeah. Yeah. So,

(39:34):
you know,
all Apple would have to do is make
a make an announcement that we're gonna support
HLS, and it changes the conversation, doesn't it?
It does. It doesn't change the conversation. And
but, you know, Apple can fix
if if, you
know, heading in the gang and whoever's listening,
all you it's you know, again,

(39:56):
they move at glacier
speeds over there just because of the
of the
ecosystem. You know, they don't get their developers
aren't they don't like they have they don't
have five developers
dedicated to Apple Podcasts.
They get time share on
Yeah. Right.
And those and those developers are working on

(40:17):
multiple things in the ecosystem. Yeah.
But if you, you know, once the first
step is really just making video first class
citizen, don't bury it no more. And if
you do that Yeah. Just
just make it easier to discover it. Yeah.
Just do that. It used to be. Right.
Right? Yeah. Make it easy. That's all they
have to do. Right? And then if if

(40:37):
the solution is we're gonna they're gonna adopt
the alternate enclosure, which,
you know, I don't wanna sound like,
Rob Walsh.
But
this is one I think A whole day
in hell. Right? No. I I'm not gonna
say that because Apple's adopted stuff already. I
think it's Oh, I know they have. I
think it's a big I think it's a

(40:57):
big leap.
If they do, then fantastic. We're ready to
go with m p four tomorrow.
Well, you know, today.
Are you talking about,
if if Apple Before you're talking about HLS
stuff. Well, if Apple supports alternate enclosure,
and
they if they do, they're gonna support an

(41:19):
m p four in that alternate closure. So
Right. You don't need that show. Their first
move. Yeah. Right. Yeah. If they did alternate
enclosure. If
and, you know, who knows? Maybe Spotify will
surprise us and wake up, but I doubt
it.
You know? They they they did something, you
know I think it would be a smart

(41:40):
move of theirs. Now the question is is
that are they going to continue
to allow you to host it off of
your hosting platform or are they just gonna
grab the copy of it and host it?
Yeah. Right. That's what Spotify is gonna do.
But again,
I don't know. You know, and people are

(42:00):
already having
conversations,
you know, behind closed doors about,
you know, this ongoing push for video within
Spotify. But I think this is gonna be
a hot topic at podcast movement. So I
would definitely keep your ears to the ground.
I think with the
there's no app developers there. So who's the
conversation with amongst ourselves

(42:22):
with among the podcast industrial
complex?
Yeah. Right. The app developers. Now there were
some app developers in London.
So that was fantastic that we had some
of those folks that were there.
That's interesting that they went to London. Well,
they were in London. They're in they're based
in Europe. Oh, they're actually based in Europe.
Yeah. Okay. But you're not gonna see Marco

(42:43):
at Podcast Movement.
You're not going to
you know. So
the conversation is going to be amongst ourselves.
And again, I'm I'm not going to get
too wrapped around the
ankle with it. You know, first thing you
got to do, let's just be kind of
frank. You wanna you wanna do video podcasting.

(43:04):
Freaking support video podcasting
in its form that it works today.
It's just supporting as it does now. Start.
I agree with you.
You start with where where it is right
now. It's there's there's been a path for
twenty years. So just support it the way
it works right now.
Yeah. It may not be optimal. A terrific
first stage. Yeah. That's a first step.

(43:27):
You know? Yeah.
But I don't think these folks are wanting
to do that.
You you start doing the math on this.
You you know, you're not gonna do this
on a $20 hosting plan. Not happening.
No. No.
I did notice that the pod page folks
decided that they were gonna support

(43:47):
HLS podcast. Well, it's easy for them to
do so. All they have to do is
put it in their player.
I can support it too. I just got
to make modification to my player to support
it. No big deal. Easy.
Yeah. But they're not carrying any of the
load.
No. Of course not. No. They're not running
servers to serve HLS.
So their announcement was, you know, they they

(44:07):
put a little fix in for their player
to support HLS.
Okay. Great.
Yeah. Now you want to do something cool
pod page, make it so that you support
live item. And then when someone goes,
you know, makes
yeah. Support the flip audio or video.
Yeah. Well, they do do both. So Yeah.

(44:30):
Yeah.
But yeah. I don't know that they support
live yet. So
Yeah. Through like well, if they support HLS,
they support live.
Well, they can. Yeah. Do they? It's you
know, right? Yeah.
Because you have to be able to support
it
off of a live streaming Right.
Connection. It all looks the same in the

(44:51):
web player or on the phone. It it
doesn't matter if it's live or if it's
on demand.
It
it it it plays back the same. It's
the same protocol,
same slices, everything.
The only difference is when you're streaming it
live. In other words, like right now,
it's, you know, it's it's that
video is being coded into HLS

(45:11):
live, you know, as it's happening,
thus the cost
to do live.
Well, Todd, like you mentioned just a few
minutes ago, you said, well, you know, a
podcast can go out and create an account
with, such and such platform and do an
HLS stream and and all that kind of
stuff and get a link and all this
kind of stuff. But I'm not sure that

(45:33):
the podcast hosts want
content creators doing that. Why not?
It says really? It's an alternate enclosure. You
can put whatever you want in there.
So they could No. But I'm just saying
from a customer support
issue, do you guys want people to go
off and host with other people? Well, they're
gonna they're not hosting with a podcast host.

(45:56):
They're gonna be hosting with
Cloudflare
or somebody like that. Yeah.
Well, there's a bunch of companies
that the support HLS out there. Oh, yeah.
For sure.
So
I'm just not sure that the industry really
knows who those players are.
I guess it's probably not hard to It's
not hard. Just do a Google search and

(46:17):
you can find 10
and then go look at the pricing.
So the average the average podcaster is gonna
see this and their eyes are gonna roll
back in their head and they're not gonna
do it.
Do you think that those platforms are
are gouging on their pricing on this? No.
It's expensive.
Yeah. But what makes it expensive? Is it
just server resources? Processing. Yeah.

(46:40):
In slicing up the media file? Probably the
biggest the biggest piece of the expense is
the processing of the video.
You know, you you Just slice it up
into chunks. Yeah. And then and then the
storage,
you know, how that's gonna be stored.
That package
is it's basically a package. It's a playlist
package, essentially.

(47:01):
Yeah. Okay. It's just a series of
chunks of
Yeah. Of video content that are put into,
like,
a And and and and where the
of sort. And where the cost can get
expensive depending on who you're hosting with is
those those get requests. Because every every slice
is a get request. Get get get get

(47:23):
get get. And if you're charged by the
get,
that adds up too. And of them before
you get one get to get the media
file. On HLS, there's there is
that's just hammering entire
is get get get get the next slice
get the next slice get the next slice.
So that
that raises

(47:43):
the cost of delivery
depending on who you're hosting with.
So typically, how small are the chunks as
far as There could be file size. There
could be
again, don't quote me on this, but I
heard there could be,
600
for an hour.

(48:05):
Okay.
So 10 a minute?
Something roughly like that. Yeah.
So again, I'm not the tech spec guy
on this. So don't quote me. I might
be wrong. There's a whole bunch of I
had I one of
my devs did a Can you set that
or is that set by the server based
on That I don't know. But I'm probably

(48:26):
I'm probably there's some configuration settings there that
you can set.
But also you got to be able to
support the downsize too. You got to be
able to go to
this to the smaller
video
encoding. You got to be able to support
six forty by three sixty, twelve eighty by
seven twenty, nineteen twenty by ten eighty. So
you you know, it's not just Four four

(48:46):
k.
Right.
So, yeah, there's that too.
So this is where the encoding cost and,
you know, storage is storage and bandwidth is
bandwidth.
So would you have to pull a different
chunk for each of those formats?
I don't know. I'm assuming.
I'm assuming you would have to have for
every video format you're gonna support for depending

(49:07):
upon the Internet connection, you probably have to,
I I don't know. I I again, I'm
talking out of my butt at this point.
I just don't know. I'd have we'd have
to have someone that knows how that encoding
works
explain,
you know, how many copies of this media
do you get? Do you get a,
you know, six forty by three twenty and,

(49:28):
does it you have eight different playlists and
then it moves based upon
bandwidth allowance?
That I don't understand at all. So
so yeah. It's, you know
only tracked down to okay.
Let let's say it pulled
10 times each minute.

(49:50):
So it pulls,
what, six seconds
of content?
And again, I'm just thinking this is how
it works. I don't quote me. Right. But
I'm assuming it pulls so many seconds ahead.
Right.
Okay.
And then again Anyway.
Yeah. Fun fun stuff. So again, it's

(50:13):
And we're trying to m p four. The
details on this. Right? Someone that knows HLS
back inside and out can come on the
show and tell us. But m p four
still works
without any headache.
Well, and it also does its own kind
of pack delivery package delivery as well. Right?
Even the download has

(50:34):
packets that are delivered based on the speed
of the connection. Yeah.
It's chunked.
That's
but that's variable based on the speed of
the connection. Yeah.
Which makes the analytics
of that,
not as precise. No. No. It's and that's
the, you know, that's the challenge with podcasting
since the beginning.

(50:56):
Right. You know, because a lot of the
apps a fast connection. Yeah. Just get more
content. Yeah. Just it's One request. Yeah. A
lot of the apps now
pull. Our our number of apps that we're
looking at to get partial
partial data is is shrinking as more apps
are just because of the technology's improved and
they update the app. They say, okay. We're

(51:16):
just gonna grab the whole thing at once.
We're not going to, you know Or the
speed of the connection. Yeah. Right.
Just grab the whole file.
And even on video, you know.
So again, it's it's funny. No one, we
have nary once
in the lifetime of this show,
gotten a single complaint

(51:36):
from a listener
that the video playback
sucked.
On
a download delivery of a video. Right. Right.
Not one.
Okay. So if you're watching this on your
phone and the delivery sucks,
let us know.
You know, let us know. Or are you

(51:57):
watching on your Apple TV, which is connected
with a much better
usually, data connection. Usually got a
got a a landline type of a connection.
Right. Connected via Wi Fi.
Yep. So even here, I'm I'm 40
is it what's what's my connection? I'm 4040.
So I, you know, I get four k

(52:20):
here. No problem on my Apple TV.
So Mhmm. Yeah.
We're almost out of time, Rob. Or if
we don't if you wanna stay within the
hour, Odyssey's doing something here. What are they
doing?
They decided to work with,
iHeartRadio's
app to make their podcast available. So they're

(52:41):
they've teamed up.
Thought that was interesting.
Well,
okay.
The Odysee app is not as popular,
in the
App Store as iHeart's app.
That's probably true.

(53:01):
Yeah.
So Odyssey just got their content in front
of potentially more
listeners. But at the same time deal. The
same time,
you know,
they don't have a lot of They don't
have advertising.
Well, you know, they iHeart does not have
a lot of market share

(53:21):
when it comes to podcast.
You know, for those podcasts are on there
being pulled by RSS. They is not that
you know, they're they're down in the weeds.
Someone said, Amazon just broke 1%.
I I have to go and look this
month. But I find that hard to believe
too. And matter of fact, how how is
that a consolidated number of

(53:42):
of Amazon Music as well as, like
the Well, Amazon mobile platform? Amazon, technically,
anything that's in Amazon
being produced by Amazon doesn't have an RSS
feed.
So if you're on Amazon and have an
r so the only thing that they're tracking
and that we're tracking is anything that's connected

(54:03):
via an RSS feed.
To the probably the Amazon Music app. Right?
As well as maybe tangential to
a listing maybe at amazon.com
and audible.
Yeah.
So At least that's what that's what it
used to be. Yeah.
I I I think we're in a and
it's an interesting time in the podcasting space

(54:25):
right now.
Lots
lots of interesting,
you know, hey, by the way,
conversations I'm having
and incompetence with people. And
Hey, by the way? Hey, by the way.
What does that mean? Well, I you know,
I I think there's some pain out there
right now.
Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah. I

(54:47):
think there's, you know, I think there's some
big pain out there.
And I think this is where the panic
is ensuing
And So where do you think the pain
is kind of Creators.
Being felt more Lack there. Just the number
of new creators? Yeah. Lack of new creators.
So how are they gonna feed the pipeline?

(55:07):
How are we gonna you know, it takes
new creators, build big shows. And
if they're not there,
you know,
it's I wonder what that means,
and
the reasons for that. Well, I think I'd
Is it just because people are disappointed with
the performance? Or

(55:29):
I think it's a combination of things. I
think people are busy. I also think that,
there's lots of choices.
Real easy to do a sixty second TikTok
reel. You know?
There's no It depends on what your goals
are. You know? So I think there's a
lot of noise.
And
I think there is also

(55:49):
the hesitancy, what I've talked about before.
And we just need to keep making people
understand that audio is a medium that
is very viable, still growing.
And that,
you know, if you're going to start a
podcast and you're brand new, and it it
learn, you know, get your get your podcast
wings with audio. Start there.

(56:10):
And
and that's the messaging we need to be.
And that's something you're gonna hear coming from
me.
Otherwise the landscape in five years is gonna
be very, very, very, very different.
Podcasting will be here, but
will all these companies be here? That is

(56:31):
the question.
Well, I guess the other question is there
more energy
trying to get new creators into podcasting as
video podcast creator? Oh, for sure.
That's that's the YouTube
PR machine.
Well, no. I'm talking about outside of YouTube.

(56:53):
Like, when I I think there's HLS and
download Yeah. No. I don't or RSS. I
don't think so. Most people don't know what
HLS even means. Industry people do.
You and I know. Oh, yeah. Yeah. As
far as normal creators is what I'm saying
is not
interested in HLS, probably. They don't care.
But but but as far as realizing

(57:14):
that they can deliver video through RSS, and
I guess that the industry hasn't really No.
I don't think it's coalesced in There's only
prioritizing that. There's three or only three or
four of us that still that support video
to begin with. So how can
the podcast industry complex say that they want
to support video when you don't even offer

(57:34):
video as a hosting plan? Buzzsprout doesn't.
They're by far the number one independent podcast
hosting company now. They don't support it.
And they don't seem Spreaker as well is
another one. And they don't seem to care.
So what's the emergency? You could take take

(57:56):
the position that that's shortsighted on where
younger creators are. No. I think what I
think what it is is they don't wanna
incur
the cost of doing that.
Yeah. Okay.
You know, because you know, you you increase
your you know, you you drop a video
file in,

(58:17):
you know, 1.5,
1.6
gigs
when you really compress the hell out of
it. So
why aren't they supporting video? If they're not
they don't hear them talking about being worried
about video.
So Interesting.
Yeah. So If the industrial complex is not

(58:38):
supporting video for podcasters, what why should Apple
make the jump to help
us support video for podcast? Well, do you
think that
Buzzsprout would change their tune if, Apple came
out and announced,
next month that they're gonna sub that they're
gonna double down on the podcast support? I

(58:59):
think in about fifteen seconds, they would. They'd
have to.
If if Apple did a big It's all
keyed on what Apple does at this point.
Yeah. I think so. Yeah.
Spotify is already
we're hearing it from from creators. Oh, I
wanna have my video over on Spotify. Well,
you know, we we tell them the, you
know, the reasons why maybe you should have

(59:19):
a second show over there
and which Spotify hates.
So
but we don't hear a lot.
That's the difference. We hear a little bit.
Like maybe every couple weeks someone asked us.
Not like every day.
Don't don't upload your video to your same
audio

(59:39):
version on Spotify is what you're saying. For
sure. Really? Yeah. Yeah. And someone that's from
Spotify listened to this or, you know, flipping
me the bird right now. So
Well, I mean, it we have to think
of it from a creator perspective. You know,
it might I think it makes sense.
Well, when the the creator is losing money
Especially if you're monetizing. Yeah. If they're monetizing

(01:00:00):
on audio, then, you know, that revenue is
gone.
Yeah. And you hope that the video revenue
hope. If you're a big name, you're sitting
pretty. If you're a big name, who's making
all the headlines? You're
golden because you've got a you've got a
deal,
You know? So Well, didn't Spotify announce that

(01:00:20):
they were gonna pay up to $5,000
to creators to start posting videos? Select
creators.
To what? Select
creators. Oh, select well, yeah. They're not gonna
And and only 5,000
Video creator. And only 5,000?
Come on. 5,000?
That's a pittance.

(01:00:40):
5,000?
If you're a big show,
that is like
that's not even an one episode of revenue.
So 5,000?
But to
a a freshly
new podcaster,
that's That would be some money. That would

(01:01:01):
be some money.
That'd be more money than they would make
in a whole year, but they're not gonna
do that for
for Todd and Rob.
No way they're gonna write us a check
for $5. Well, especially us. Right. But yeah.
But still, you know.
Anyway, they do that. We are we're over
here. We need to get everyone out of
here. We're trying to keep this to an
hour.

(01:01:21):
Okay.
Alright, Todd. So I'm [e-mail],
at geek because this is gonna mess our
buddy up here. At geek news
on x
@geeknewsatgeeknews.chat
on Mastodon.
And we made it through a whole episode
getting a master recording,
and the RodeCaster duo stayed connected.

(01:01:45):
Wow. Remarkable.
Yeah. Well well and if anyone it works
at Rode,
why the hell does this thing wanna disconnect
at three minutes into recording?
Go ahead, Rob.
I can be found
just about anywhere online. Just do a search
for my name. So it's easy to find
me.

(01:02:06):
You can also send an email to me,
rob dot greenleygmail
dot com.
Be great to hear from you and get
your thoughts on what you think is going
on in the in the industry. And there's
been this whole thread of discussion on x
about,
AI slop
and whether or not, all the AI content

(01:02:27):
that's coming into the
to the the social,
interest medium,
platforms
out there,
should be labeled.
And I've noticed that some of the
the platforms out there I think it was
TikTok.
I I think it's the one is actually
labeling,
content that's AI now.

(01:02:48):
But do does it need to happen more?
And I that's the raging discussion off of
my Should it happen? My account right now.
Should it happen in podcast? Should it be
a flag set? Right.
Right. I think so.
So
but at what level
does it need to happen? Well, that's the
problem. That's where the argument's gonna end. That's
the question. Right. At what

(01:03:10):
at what usage level
triggers it? Yeah.
That's I don't think that we have consensus
on that.
Oh, no. That's where the war will happen
in the discussion.
For sure.
So anyway Okay. So
send me an email.
Great to hear from you. So And everyone,
thank you out here for supporting the show.
Appreciate it. We'll be back with you next

(01:03:31):
time. Again, 8PM eastern now, at least until
the first week in August. So all the
way through July. Alright, everyone. Take care. We'll
see you next time. Bye bye. Okay. Good
night.