June 4, 2025 • 59 mins
In this episode titled “Podcasting’s Future: Are We Losing Sight of Creators?” Todd Cochrane hosts the New Media Show solo, as Rob is not present. Todd acknowledges Rob’s potential transition away from the show and reflects on their long history together in podcasting, indicating a willingness for change. Todd discusses the current landscape of podcasting, … Continue reading Podcasting’s Future: Are We Losing Sight of Creators?
The post Podcasting’s Future: Are We Losing Sight of Creators? appeared first on New Media Show.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Well, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the new
media show. Of course, I'm I'm stepping on
my cable here. A great way to start
the show.
Yeah.
I'm here solo.
And,
yeah, Rob is not with us today, and,
I would just, you know, kinda start out,
(00:24):
just kinda, you know,
acknowledging
that,
you know, Rob had expressed to me that,
you know, maybe the show should change.
I didn't know if he wanted to continue.
I'm not gonna speak for Rob. I hope
Rob will be back for,
future episodes.
Always welcome,
(00:44):
here. And and I'm not saying that,
this is, the end of the show as
we know it.
But definitely, you know, there's there's some potential
change here.
And, you know, we had we've had a
really super, super
long run,
many, many years. I'd just have to go
back and look in the calendar, but it's
(01:04):
been more than ten years of doing the
show.
And,
you know, the journey
of this podcast really started
many years ago with a show that we're
doing called the Saturday morning tech show.
And,
you know, we end up talking about podcasting
more than we're talking about tech.
(01:25):
And, Rob had been part of the, you
know, inaugural group of folks over at Tech
Podcast Network at techpodcast.com,
helped us with streaming,
features. They just, you know, some stuff that
we're doing early on that, podcasters really weren't
doing. But, you know, Robert had this, you
know, this syndicated radio show that he'd been
doing.
(01:45):
So in a long story short, you know,
we've known each other really since probably the
beginning, 2005
or so.
And,
and then,
you know, we just aligned. And, of course,
Rob's worked for everybody in the in the
business and knows a lot about the space.
And I, you know, I completely respect that
and respect Rob's opinions. And,
(02:07):
and I know that,
you know, Rob is focused on a lot
of the stuff that's happening in AI
and in in video,
and that's fair. You know?
Times change. He's not working for a, quote,
unquote, podcasting company at the moment.
So, you know, he gets the freedom of
being able to,
you know, definitely
(02:28):
dig deep into those,
into those topics as well. And and and
I'm, yeah, I'm very happy for him.
So we'll see.
But at this point,
and, again, we'll see. Maybe next week could
be different. Who knows?
But definitely, we'll be inviting on some folks
to
(02:49):
to have discussions,
and sometimes they're gonna be going solo.
But there's a big enough audience that's associated
with this. I just you know, the the
emails that we've got
and,
the stuff that came in
via comments.
Andrew had said, hey. I hope it isn't
the end. I like listening to the banter
from two long industry experts. I firmly
(03:11):
I'm firmly in the audio first side, but
I don't see a problem with beep with
people saying video is up and coming. Audio
is portable.
It takes less effort to produce audios better
for me.
He says, I think the push for video
should be shorts and reels as a marketing
strategy for an audio podcast. I have been
doing that
for a show and getting some
(03:32):
comments interaction that I don't generally get from
the audio podcast,
which will hopefully grow the show and not
just my social accounts, but it gives me
more content
and discussion points to bring,
in the show regardless. I'm thinking of doing
the same with my own shows, record video,
doing clips, TikTok,
YouTube, Blue Sky, etcetera.
(03:52):
And he says, in fact, the only video
podcast I watch in video format is a
new media show. If you change the name,
how about the audio first show? I
don't know if that works or not, but,
Andrew, thank you for your comments. There was
one other
that came in via a,
a boost, and let's see if I can
load that.
(04:14):
A boost had come in from Silas on
Linux. He says,
keep going to the show. Just make it
not two hours and go in circles less.
I don't know if we can get individuals
to keep making new great RSS formats because
people don't know Open RS is great and
care.
Right now, we need to keep a focus
on making RSS better and convincing companies and
networks to keep at it.
(04:36):
And then through that, we may get more
great podcasts. Going to individuals
is really hard. YouTube, x, Twitch, Instagram, and
Spotify are fantastic
that people know and like. So I absolutely
agree
as well.
Silas also says I was there two days.
Well, one and one and a half. Went
(04:57):
to the hotel early day when the talks
were mostly really good and almost very full.
This is talking about the podcast show.
He had, like, six stages or something. It
feels to me like the bigger talk stages
probably made the event seem less alive,
but there's constantly hundreds of people missing. Oh,
there was huge, huge,
huge numbers in there. And, again, another boost
(05:18):
from Silas, and I also attended the advertising
video show. It was nice to meet Todd,
some of the other people there. So, Silas,
thanks for your feedback. I don't know if
Rob got an email. I didn't get any,
direct.
So, maybe Rob did. And,
but,
I noticed this morning, Rob canceled the, long
standing
(05:38):
03:00 appointment we had for today, and I'll
talk to Rob and and kinda get some
some feedback. But,
you know, I I I've, wrote an agenda
for today. Yes. That's normally that normally Rob
had been doing that.
But
I wanna just make sure
as as we talk about podcasting,
(06:01):
which I still consider new media, You guys
gotta understand.
And I think, you know, those of you
that listen to the show
that, you know, many of us in the
space, Rob included and others,
live, breathe, think,
shower
thinking about podcasting.
(06:22):
And, you know, that my life revolves
completely
around,
helping creators and, you know, running a business
and doing everything that you need to do
to make that successful.
And I keep one of the things I
keep telling my team
is to make sure we have to stay
(06:45):
focused.
And
we while we've built some cool tools for
AI,
we're looking at things for video. Talk about
that here more in a minute.
We need to make sure we're not
throwing the baby out with bathwater.
(07:05):
Audio. Audio is this super incredible powerful
medium
that I know right now many of you
have got
this show
plugged into your head. You're listening via earbuds
or however you may be listening in the
shower, in the car, at the gym, on
the go, in front of the TV watching
(07:26):
it. Who you you know, you're consuming this
show a lot of different ways,
but you have specifically
decided that you're going to listen to this
show, and that's a big difference.
NOAA logarithm
has has,
fed you this show. You've chose you've you've,
by choice,
(07:49):
decided to listen to this. Now
are you gonna continue to listen? I don't
know.
I guess it depends on how interesting it
gets.
And I will say that, you know, I've
been pretty firm
and, you know, for many, many years
that I truly believe
that
podcasting in its open form
(08:11):
is the last fashion of free speech
where a platform
such as YouTube, such as Spotify cannot take
content down.
I'm not aware of content being taken down
on YouTube, but I am aware of content
that's taken down on Spotify for a variety
of reasons.
And sometimes I get tired of forwarding those
(08:33):
emails to legal and to my support team
to go look.
In fact, sometimes it comes in by the
dozens of episodes that have been removed and
more than more more often than not, it's
because of music.
So, you know, that's understandable. Spotify has a
a terms of service, and they don't want
music in their podcast.
(08:57):
So my thought process
has been
at least
for a while
and seeing the influx of new content creators
coming in,
are we leaving
creators behind?
Are we leaving
new
(09:18):
potential
podcasters behind?
And I think the answer to that right
now is yes.
And I talked about it in the last
show. But I think we have
to be, as an industry,
advocating advocating
for audio creators
(09:40):
and also,
if they so wish, to do video.
But I think what we have done
and based upon the discussions,
the calls that I have on a weekly
basis
and I I had a call this morning
with a individual.
And the exact words, Todd, this beeping video
(10:01):
is hard.
And
the individual has a successful audio show.
So we understand
doing video well is hard. I'm man, I
screw it up half the time anyway.
I screw up audio.
(10:22):
But
is the industry leaders effectively protecting podcasting's open
star standard?
I think
many have become to realize
the importance of it more than ever,
especially the folks that are part of the
Podcast Standards Project.
I think they all fully understand
(10:43):
the
the,
the importance
of open open RSS, which has been from
the beginning.
And
but
the industrial complex, as Adam and other folks
like to come and refer to us,
you know, there's been so much focus around
(11:08):
the monetization
monetization
monetization
if we forget
what a majority
of audio podcasters
want
in creating content. I would I had a
interview yesterday,
with Chris, from over at Podfest,
(11:29):
and him and I spent an hour,
talking about,
you know, indie content creators.
We talked about the audio, the video, the,
you know, the, you know, where
this community
of
and Chris told me, he's I think the
phone number of folks that are not worried
about making money is at about 85%.
(11:51):
I said 70. He said 85. He said,
I don't think
I think your number is wrong. But, again,
depends on what event you go to. If
you go to Podfest,
it's probably 85%
of the people that are not entirely focused
on making money, but at the same time,
they have sessions and tracks for monetization.
(12:14):
Where you flip the script and you go
to podcast movement,
I would say 75%
of the people there are looking to make
money in connections and sponsorships.
So it's a different show
per se.
And
I go back to this
the statement is not being done
(12:34):
as I, as a podcast host,
is it am I
doing enough to support creators?
I feel we are in their rights.
And, basically,
you know, I can count on probably
two hands in twenty years, the number of
shows I've had to take down because of
(12:56):
something they said.
And it was usually something so egregious
that it was like, oh, my god. You
know, where where are you coming from? Mars,
you know.
Otherwise,
you know, we protected creators' rights.
We've encouraged creators' independence.
You know, I I, you know, I look
(13:17):
at my role in saying, own your brand
on yourown.com.
Control your feed. Control you know, you own
you.
So I think, you know, I've done my
part in that regard.
But the podcast industrial complex, which is
largely made up of companies that are focused
(13:39):
on making money,
taking 50% of ad revenue or 70%,
you know, whatever their their split is
with podcasters
for representation
and and the drive to
fill more inventory.
That part of the industry
(14:00):
has different goals than I do
as
the founder of a podcast hosting company. And
twenty years later, I'm still a podcaster.
And I understand the challenges and the ups
and flows. And just like this show, here
we are. We've got a little bit of
a change. Right? A little bit of change
(14:21):
here.
And that change isn't always bad.
Things change over time.
People have different,
you know, maybe get tired of talking about
certain stuff. It happens.
It's it's life.
But
what we have failed
and what we have failed
(14:43):
as an industry
is
our speed of adoption
and innovation
and reinvention.
It's it's like a slug.
Feels to me it's just crawling
in innovation.
(15:04):
There's a group, you guys know who we're
gonna talk about, there's a group that's going
like lightning fire.
But yet,
the rest of the industry
is doing the same thing, rinse, wash, repeat.
And in my opinion, it's not good enough.
(15:25):
So
we have to,
as industry leaders and those that are listening
to this show that consider themselves industry leaders,
we have to advocate
for the value of audio and video podcasting
in their own separate ways.
There is a story line
(15:46):
for advocating for audio.
There is a story line for advocating
for video.
There's no
doubt.
To be blind to that is, you know,
I don't like it.
But I've been doing video for so many
years and, you know,
it's kind of hypocritical. Right?
(16:08):
So the industry
in new feature adoption and, yes, podcasting two
point o features
is too fucking slow.
It's too slow.
And too many hard heads in the industry
that don't try to understand what it is.
(16:28):
They don't care what it is because
they're focused on a different thing.
They're focused on making money.
Not focused on
helping
the creator
space have new tools,
new features,
new engagement to build community with
(16:51):
the creators in the in the community. What
do we want as podcasters?
I tell you what I want. I want
your feedback. Right?
I wanna hear from you. I wanna know
what you think about the show. I wanna
know what I did wrong. I want you
to chew my ass out when I'm wrong.
I wanna hear that.
And we've made it very, very hard. Are
(17:12):
we doing it now? Email.
We've got this great thing called value for
value, but it's kinda broke right now a
little bit.
You know, one of the comments that I
read at the beginning of the show is
from the blog.
Someone actually took the time and made a
comment on the blog. I can't tell you
(17:32):
how long it's been since someone made a
comment on the new media show blog.
Matter of fact, I was shocked. I locked
in there. I said, oh, there's a comment.
Because we it's been too hard.
Look look at the engagement they have on
YouTube.
Look at the chat, the super chat, all
those features.
We envy for that,
(17:53):
and yet we've had the ability to make
that happen now for a while. And guess
where we've been?
We've been slugs
and crawling like snails
and not adopting stuff.
Is every adoption gonna change the world?
No.
But cumulative,
a lot of smart people with a lot
(18:15):
of good ideas have added some things that
should,
in principle,
help creators
connect with their audience,
help them have a feedback loop,
get that dopamine hit from every time someone
says I love your show, I hate your
show, whatever they say.
Make it easy for that interaction to happen.
(18:35):
Make it easy for a listener to donate
to a show.
Make it easier for me to promote shows
that I love,
give credit to the people that are on
the show with me, all these cool
things that we have added
and the major
(18:56):
podcast apps,
excluding Apple and Spotify,
have been slow
to adopt or didn't adopt at all.
Marco at Overcast, what has he adopted?
Nothing.
Pocket cast? Yep. They've adopted some stuff.
(19:20):
We've hurt ourselves.
And this is why the shift is happening
is
egos
and feedback
on your content
is often the dopamine hit a podcaster needs
to continue
to improve,
to grow their audience.
(19:41):
So
we have to get off our
our butts.
And
we
have to to say,
risk be damned.
We need to adopt
these features in mass.
Now I wanna talk about
(20:04):
something that I've been talking about. I'm I'm
gonna get to HLS
this in a minute.
But
we need to advance the space, and we
have the ideas
and features
to help advance the space. Will it be
the golden
egg that the goose lay? No.
(20:26):
It's not.
It's not, but it's incremental things that will
help.
The extension of Open RSS.
Isn't that a beautiful word
or sentence?
The extension of open RSS?
That that that that should ring. That should
be like,
(20:47):
there should be angels singing, you know, extending
open RSS
instead of going into
lockdown silos?
Who's the lockdown silos? We know who they
are. Right?
(21:08):
So in London,
we had a
I I missed the first meeting. I missed
the lunch
for the podcast standards project.
And,
you know, I I love the idea
behind the Podcast Standards Project. Some hate it.
There's a few podcast host
(21:29):
employees
that hate it.
They think it's some controlling agency.
But,
you know, it was a good discussion,
and there was definitely near unanimous agreement
that we need to do something with video.
Now
I have to play devil's advocate here because
(21:51):
Rob's not here.
But
we have a system today,
t o d a y,
today,
that works.
We don't have to make any changes.
You just gotta open up
video hosting for your podcast hosting platform.
(22:12):
Make it available.
Yes. They'll have to create two feeds.
One show for audio, one show for video.
Is it perfect? No. That's what we've been
doing forever, and it's available right now to
and ready to rock and roll.
8080%
of you listen to the show, 20% of
you watch.
(22:33):
So you host today
can
embrace
video
immediately
immediately,
and things will work out of the back.
You don't have to do any other work.
No you you might have to enable m
p four in your system or whatever.
There'll be and maybe you have to have
a player.
(22:53):
But the lift to to support video
is easy.
No hiccups.
Number one. So that could be done by
all hosts tomorrow.
Will they do it?
I don't think so.
We already had the discussion about Apple
(23:16):
and what Apple what we want Apple to
do,
but we can talk to her blue interface
to Apple
and beg and not necessarily beg, but, you
know, please, you know, you know, come in
again, you know, make video, you know, not
it's just like, you know, like, we're like
kids.
And, like, please, daddy, can I have some
candy?
(23:40):
And it really is not that bad.
But, you know, it goes back to,
you know, I talked to you guys before.
It's like this contractor speak. You know, when
I was working for the government, it was
like, oh, they would contact their community. Oh,
we should do this and this and this
and this and this. I said, oh, that
that's interesting.
I could never say that's a great idea.
(24:01):
I could never say that looks good. I
could never say let's implement. I could never
commit. I could not make a committal statement
or even hint around a committal statement
because,
well, Todd said we could do it. He
said it was a great idea. Here's your
bill for $1,000,000.
(24:22):
That's the kind of
and it's literally that.
And maybe not to that extreme, but pretty
doggone close.
So So when we're asking Apple and others,
please support video, make it a first class
citizen,
they have to go, interesting.
(24:42):
Oh, okay.
We're hearing you.
But that's it.
That's all they can say.
Because it's the Apple way. Keep your mouth
shut or be fired.
So even if all the podcast hosts tomorrow
supported video,
(25:04):
we have a handful of apps that
support it natively.
I know matter of fact, I I I
got a message today from the fountain folks.
They're gonna support it natively, and there's a
number of apps. I wrote a thing on
LinkedIn. I've already pissed some people off. They've
they wrote me back.
But, you know, there's a handful of apps
(25:24):
that support video. Is it Apple Podcasts? No.
But what will happen if Apple Podcasts makes
video a first class citizen? All hell will
break loose.
In a in a instant
overnight,
vid every podcaster that's doing video will want
to be on Apple Podcasts.
Why?
(25:44):
Why not?
What's my what's my motive or my my
hypo not my hypothesis. My my my comment
forever has been I don't care where you
listen, long as you listen
or watch. I guess I can add that
to that comment.
Don't care. And for as long as this
(26:04):
show has been doing
live, we've had a video podcast. Ever since
I think Geek News Central, I started, like,
episode 600.
I'm on 18 hundreds. That's what? Twelve, thirteen,
fourteen years,
something like that. Been doing a video podcast
in RSS, and 30% of the people watch
(26:26):
either on Apple TV, on Apple Podcasts,
on whatever app they're listening. I see it
in my statistics. They watch.
Why do they watch?
I don't know. They watch.
Why do they watch me? I don't know.
Why are you watching?
So
this HLS discussion,
(26:51):
we need to do HLS with an alternate
enclosure. And the immediate in my head,
okay. Fantastic.
It's beautiful.
Great idea.
No issue.
And,
but the challenge
(27:12):
there is
Alright. We're gonna put HLS in the alternate
enclosure.
Will Apple adopt that?
I don't wanna, you know, sound like Rob
Walsh.
But if they don't,
(27:32):
and we only get a handful of apps
to support HLS,
got me to thinking.
And on the podcast index
Mastodon yesterday started a hell
of a con it just the threads just
(27:54):
went on and on and on.
But I basically said,
The HLS disc discussion. Yes.
I know that Sarah Hov has seen the
light in terms of I'm calling this future
survival
and are looking at HLS.
(28:16):
Todd
from Blueberry
wants a definable commitment by all
podcasting two point o apps to support it.
If
we,
as host,
add this, it's gonna come at significant cost
to deliver the median HLS, and we'll talk
about that too.
(28:37):
And I'm just gonna say this, I'm not
spending a single
dev dollar.
I'm not spending a
single dev dollar
until there's a reciprocal commitment
by the majority of podcasting two point o
apps that are participating today
to support HLS video.
I've been the chicken.
(28:59):
Now I'm gonna be the egg.
The chicken needs to be the apps to
support HLS
because
ding ding ding ding ding ding because
video podcasting is supported today with no additional
dev work. I've already got it.
So this has to be a joint effort.
(29:21):
If I get the majority,
the majority of podcasting two point I said
all, but if I get majority of them,
90% of them to commit to supporting
HLS video via alternate closure, we'll build it.
But it's not gonna come for $20 a
(29:41):
month.
Fair warning.
Now
my team's done a fair amount of research.
We've been looking at this for a while
to do
HLS on Amazon AWS. Let me just give
you a little
insight,
a little insider
(30:03):
baseball
insight onto the cost of HLS.
If I was using AWS
media convert of the
let's just look at a two gig video
file,
and that's someone that's encoding at,
you know, ten eighty p,
relatively good frame rate,
(30:23):
maybe about an hour's worth of content.
That media convert is gonna cost 90¢.
That's ding ding. That's number one.
The s three storage is gonna cost a
nickel.
The s three data transfer
is another 10¢ because we're gonna be copying
over multiple files, multiple, you know, segments.
(30:45):
So so what are we up to? Up
to a dollar 5 just
for the first section of the video.
Then
CloudFront
requests every time an HLS video is being
played and every click so what happens is
with HLS is they they chop
(31:05):
the content up into
well, on average,
I guess there's, like, seven like, every 10,
there's a there's a chop.
And a two and calculated
out a two hour would have, like, 7,200
segments.
Each of those segments is a request that
comes back
from CloudFront, and I pay for those requests.
(31:27):
What does it cost? 75¢
a million.
Oh, that's not too bad, Todd.
So let's think about this. It's if there's
7,200
slices in a single video,
you divide that by a million, it's a
38.
So now we're getting more interesting.
At At a 38,
(31:49):
take a thousand
thousand plays,
thousand people played a video,
and divide that by 30. I think the
math was, like, 5.34
or something like that, whatever the number was.
And
five time and let me see. I actually
got the math in one of the post.
See if I can find the the actual
(32:11):
the segment here.
Yeah. Here it is. A thousand plays divided
by a 38
equals 7.24
times 75¢
equals $5.43.
So we already talked about
I'm already a dollar. What did I say?
I was a dollar
(32:32):
dollar $5.90
doll dollar 5. We add another
$5.43.
We're up to $6.06
50 essentially,
and then I gotta pay for bandwidth.
So then it's just pure
whatever your decimal
to the right is of
or decimal to the left
is on your gigabit cost.
(32:53):
You just pay that. So you figure a
two gigabit file.
Let's just say a two gig, it's two
gigs,
and if they listen to all the way
to the end, this is the key factor,
if they listen all the way to the
end, you're probably looking at
a penny.
Now, if they deliver a thousand, to deliver
(33:14):
a thousand no. To deliver one,
you're looking at
at two gigs,
maybe half a cent.
So do that math. I think it's still
when you get done and multiply by,
half a cent times a thousand.
(33:35):
What is that? $5?
And so now
and if I did the math wrong, don't
shoot me. You guys can correct me in
the comments.
But you guys can see where this cost
is for HLS delivery.
Now that's on Amazon.
I would never do HLS on Amazon.
(33:55):
There's not a chance.
Not a not a not a chance on
on earth at this point. What I would
probably do
is go to a cheaper solution, and there
are cheaper solutions out there.
CloudFlare has something called,
CloudFlare Stream,
and it's it looks wonderful. You look at
(34:15):
the pricing on it. Yeah. I'm gonna bring
it up here. You you you you you
see this whoops. Hang on. Let me get
the right screen up for those of you
that are,
this Cloud for a Stream. The pricing looks
fine.
You know? You you're looking at this, and,
you know, you think, wow.
Creator bundle starting at $50 a month.
(34:37):
80 5 months in savings. All the features
are up to 500,000
images and 10,000
of video.
Go up to a million images and fifty
thousand minutes of video. So, oh, that that
sounds fantastic. So let let's get the calculator
out again,
and we take 50,000,
(35:00):
and then we divide that by 60,
what do we have? 833
plays.
So
it's
sounds great
until it isn't because
CloudFlare has this
nice little habit
of them seeing you use a lot of
(35:22):
bandwidth,
a lot of storage,
and a lot of calls, and they call
you and say, hey. What are you doing?
This is a creator bundle.
This is not a company bundle.
So guess what we wanna do? Here's our
contract.
And sign the contract for a year or
you get shut off.
(35:45):
So this Cloudflare thing is good for a
micro scale.
Alright. So and we're getting some comments on
Facebook, so I'll try to get those read
here in a second.
Sam is saying all podcasting two apps support
(36:06):
HLS today
for live streaming, not for on demand. I
haven't seen anybody in anyway, long story short,
it's expensive.
Okay. So
with that being said okay. Podcast host,
what are you gonna charge?
(36:26):
Can't lose money on this. You don't stay
in business and lose money.
You know, there's someone in the podcasting space
that's doing something cool. He's running his own
servers,
and we've had a, you know, interesting conversation
in a WhatsApp group that's made up of
a bunch of industry people.
And
(36:47):
that conversation
has been
good. I'm like, wow. You've been you you
don't have to charge for bandwidth?
Fantastic.
You're able to just price it, you know,
on a different model? Great. You're running your
own hardware.
And then when you boil down and
(37:08):
look at
what they're doing,
here's what happens.
And Libsyn run into this in the early
days of podcasting.
On any connection,
it's called a session.
And depending on the server you have, you
have
(37:28):
and how much memory you have and how
much how much bandwidth you have,
that
server is limited to an a not infinite
number of sessions.
It's,
let's say, 2,000 sessions,
and it may be more. But let's just
say 2,000 sessions is what
(37:50):
the
server will support. 2,000 sessions delivering video
at speed
with no lag.
What happens when there's a million sessions?
When you when you have and you guys
can watch Podpink when you can see how
fast new episodes are being
(38:10):
hit.
When a new episode hits
and in the current infrastructure with m p
four
and m p three
and then grabbing that media and some podcast
apps downloading it. The smart people on video
podcasting are not doing that. They have it
set to play on demand.
But for those that do download that,
(38:32):
audio or video, that session opens up. The
session stays open as long as that media
takes to get from the server
to you.
And on some big shows, for the first
two hours that a the episode has been
out, it's lots of sessions. Tens of thousands
of sessions for big shows. Small shows, number.
But if you take 10,000
(38:54):
shows
and that they're in in any
percentage of them are publishing a new episode
within twelve hours, You have to have the
thorough put in session
capacity
to deliver all that media in a timely
if you have all small shows, very simple
to run on your own hardware.
(39:18):
Cost effective.
But when you get a lot of sessions,
things fall over and flat on their face.
Now the advantage on HLS,
you play,
you stop, that's it. You use amount of
bandwidth for the time period that you're listening.
You don't list the whole time. You save
on that percentage point, but still, that session
(39:39):
is open that whole time.
And what kind of infrastructure do you need
on scale for the whole podcasting community that
decides they're gonna do video
when Apple Podcast says, hey. We're making app
a video of first class citizen.
People have no
idea
(39:59):
what is about to hit them.
The only way you can deliver
HLS
effectively
en masse
is via CDN,
a big one
at significant cost,
it's going to cost something.
And the pure fact of the matter is
(40:21):
fixed media
is a lot cheaper to deliver
than HLS
ever will be. So I'm I'm still again,
okay. We wanna do this HLS thing. You
wanna do very,
alternate enclosure?
Okay.
But do you really know what that means?
(40:44):
Do you really
understand what that means at scale
and what that impact
is gonna be?
I do. We did the math,
and it's not gonna cost $20 a month.
I don't think I can do it
without extreme risk
(41:05):
for under additional $50 a month to provide
HLS. You want just straight
m p four delivery? Yeah. No problem. We
we can do that. I can probably do
that at, an easy probably for $20 additional
month. No no issue.
But HLS,
that's a different animal. And what are the
advantages we're getting?
(41:26):
What's the only advantage
HLS is giving?
Variable playback on demand, not filling the device's
hard drive with media. But yet for fifteen
years,
we've been doing video podcast the traditional way,
and no one's complained.
We've never
(41:46):
never
not one
not one complaint
from a listener
that you're taking up too much storage
in my device?
Not one
ever.
Have we ever had a playback complaint?
Not one
ever
(42:07):
Ever.
So
what if someone caches that content? Say, Todd,
we'll take the m p four. We'll pull
it in. Convert to HLS. We'll cache it.
Hey.
Yay. Let's go.
But send me a signal back that says
that you've
you've played it.
(42:29):
So what is the benefit? The benefit is
only for the listener.
Only and what's the negative? Can't watch HLS
on an airplane.
Can't watch that video while you're 25,000
(42:50):
feet.
Doesn't work.
You have to have an Internet connection.
So
it's all fun and games until you have
to pay the bill.
Yes. Business cost it money. Now why
(43:11):
now why
why does
why does
YouTube
have have this beautiful platform
that
serves
video via HLS?
They own the data center.
They own the fiber.
They own the equipment that's in the racks
(43:33):
at the ISPs.
They do caching,
and they do it at scale. And, essentially
and this is, you know, this is really
being not nice to YouTube, but they pay
for electricity
and maintenance
and
upgrades.
Almost all that other stuff
(43:55):
is almost zero.
But yet YouTube has never said how much
money they've made. You don't know if YouTube
is profitable.
They're pushing people to subscribe
because delivery of this stuff is not cheap
if you don't
own
the infrastructure.
They can do this because they own
(44:16):
the infrastructure.
So
I think it's great. I like what the
podcast standards project is doing. I like the
discussion that's happening out there right now. I
like the reactions.
But
(44:37):
is it really
feasible
for me to spend a lot of money
for something that is gonna go in a
small number of apps? I'm sounding like Rob
Walsh again
at this point.
Can I be ready if YouTube flips the
(44:59):
switch? I mean, not YouTube. Apple flips the
switch and makes
video a first class citizen again? Oh, for
sure.
But I'm already supporting
Apple Podcasts with video.
And let's just be frank, I know some
people are saying, you gotta give the apps
a chance.
Yeah. We we we are.
(45:20):
But as a podcast host,
I was willing to go out and build
the features that needed the chicken first.
Really was.
But I just don't think that
anyone is really truly ready.
(45:44):
Just watch my video on m p four
in alternate enclosure.
Same experience. Listener doesn't know the difference.
They really don't.
Never seen anyone complain.
So if the Podcasting two point o app
support HLS,
great. Then let's see then let me look
(46:05):
in my let's start adding the alternate enclosure
m p fours to, and we'll see
how many people actually use that feature in
that show listing.
We'll see
then. Because, again,
you gotta think about
the reward here
for video. I know we need to support
(46:26):
video, but guess what? We already do.
Video podcasting is fully supported in open podcasting
today.
My contention is you do not need HLS.
But, boy, it sounds sexy.
(46:49):
So let's fix the problem
by supporting something that is not supported
in Apple Podcasts.
Oh.
The how oh, Apple Podcasts supports video?
Apple TV?
You mean I watch the show on Apple
TV? Yes.
(47:13):
It's not YouTube.
So I I think
you guys see where I'm going here.
So
I'm just coming at this from the reality.
Again, the reality
(47:34):
oh, what happened here? A reality of a
a hosting provider.
So I got a boost here. Who who
sent the boost? I gotta look.
It came in.
Yes.
Mike says open is a keyword. 1,701
sets. Thank you, Mike.
(47:56):
Again, we're gonna be open even with HLS.
But
I, as a hosting provider doing the math,
can go on risk today
and offering video to any podcaster
that's out there
with a cap.
You're gonna get a cap.
(48:16):
You go over this much
transfer,
you're gonna have to go to pro. I'm
sorry.
Because
I'm not gonna put servers somewhere
that's sitting in a rack that I'm paying
rent for
to serve that media and then run into
an issue when I don't have enough concurrent
(48:37):
connections.
So there there's there's
there's lots of ways to weigh this.
With the CDN right now I have, I
had if they need more concurrent connections, they
spin up more ponies.
I don't have to do that. They do
that. It's all automated.
(48:57):
You think when Joe Rogan drops,
how many concurrent connections do you think are
going on to download his episode?
Hundreds of thousands
of concurrent connection just for his single show
that literally within seconds of his episode dropping.
(49:18):
None of us are Joe Rogan.
But, collectively,
a thousand shows dropping an episode within the
same hour
is the same
effect as Joe Rogan.
Because we know that the first forty eight
excuse me. The first hundred and twenty minutes
of a show posting
(49:39):
is this dramatic,
explosive
automated
download
spike that happens
immediately.
Used to be
used to be
the RSS feed was tied to the Apple
Podcasts
app.
That the RSS feed was actually here
(49:59):
and not at Apple,
so everyone updated
at a different pace.
So
you didn't get this immediate
slam.
And
since the change,
the dramatic upswing in immediate downloads,
(50:21):
or which would be HLS plays,
if they come to that, would be massive
in that first sixty minutes. Well,
I guess not because they wouldn't automatically be
downloading. They'd have to manually click play.
So I might be all wrong here. I
wanna hear from all of you
and whether or not I'm crazy or not.
(50:43):
But let's just
lay the cards where they may lay.
The question I have and I, you know,
hats off to Podbean, hats off to Libsyn.
Where the hell have the rest of you
been
in supporting video podcasting?
Where have you been?
(51:04):
Why haven't you done it?
I'd always amazed me that there's just three
of us.
There's more, correct me.
I I was amazed.
Still amazed
because the margins aren't
(51:25):
bigger.
The margins are much smaller.
And none of us having raised our hosting
prices,
any of us raised our hosting prices ever,
you narrow that margin,
what do you gotta do?
(51:45):
You gotta raise the price.
Is that why other podcast hosts haven't
raised the price of or haven't supported video?
So it's it's it's it's a multifactor thing
here,
And I'm trying to tie this back together.
Number one.
(52:06):
The apps
need to get with it.
We wanna compete with YouTube.
We wanna compete
with Spotify,
the independent podcasting apps have to get with
it.
Number two, we need to remember that you
don't have to do video.
(52:29):
You don't have to.
Audio is fine.
Audio listening audiences are growing.
They're not going away.
Matter of fact, because there's fewer shows creating
content, those are those that are creating content
are now seeing more growth than they've ever
seen.
(52:53):
So I'm hoping
may maybe I'm just talking into the ether
here.
I don't know.
I know that what we will continue to
do is we will continue to be a,
audio first platform for podcasters. We support video.
(53:14):
As a company, we're AI first
leaning in.
We understand the importance of that to make
us more lean and mean.
Everything that has been talked about by the
podcast standards project does align with
preserving
RSS and the open ecosystem.
(53:36):
So that falls in line with the model.
So I guess I'm asking all of you
to weigh in.
What should our priorities be?
Where where do we need where are our
priorities? And I'm gonna go back and say
that we're still not doing enough to support
(53:59):
creators
as a community.
Maybe enough is being done on the monetization
side, but
as
as, Chris Kormosos said, my per Chris Kormosos.
I screw his last name up every time.
Sorry, Chris.
What are what are we doing for the
80 other 85%?
(54:21):
And,
shame on those that have forgotten about those
creators.
So
I'm not gonna go ninety minutes today, but
I will say
that
I'm not gonna guarantee an episode every week,
but I'm gonna try.
(54:41):
And I'm gonna try to continue the mission
at advocacy
of open podcasting.
If this becomes my place to rant, maybe
that's a good thing. I don't know.
And maybe I'm wrong.
And if I'm wrong in these in these
comments, please let me know. Now let me
(55:02):
go back here. We had some comments that
come in.
Randall said the push to video is just
the latest fad in podcast. They mentioned it
will die back down and return to status
quo.
Maybe.
Spotify,
Ugly Face by Randall. Sam said that all
podcasting two apps support HLS today.
(55:25):
They may not they may support HLS, but
they do not all support HLS video. That's
true.
Some only playback the audio from the HLS
stream. Well, again,
until it's a good experience when someone can
flip with the push of a button, I
think we have some ways to go. But,
again,
you can see you they can watch video
(55:46):
with them before.
And
the question is,
really,
why?
Why do we have to go to HLS?
Why?
Because the stream is sexier. We're gonna get
more data.
We're gonna get more information to be able
to monetize.
(56:07):
Is that the reason?
That's some of the stuff I've heard.
Randall says we have a long ways to
go. Oh, I agree.
(56:30):
So
I think I've talked out here.
I'm just trying to think what I missed.
So I'm gonna try to have some guest.
I wanna hear your input.
We've gotten some input already,
but I think we need some listeners
(56:50):
to weigh in.
We need the audience
to tell us
what we're not doing for them.
Isn't that the folks that is most important
for?
If the listeners tell us
chat is more important than video,
or they're able to one click support
(57:13):
a podcaster with revenue is more important than
video,
What do the listeners say?
Shouldn't the listeners be setting our priorities
so that
we make them happy and they wanna listen
to our content on these apps?
(57:37):
Think so.
So maybe that'll be the goal too is
to get some listeners on here, non podcasters.
So they can they can tell us what
they think.
Find out how many are watching on YouTube
and how many are listening on a podcast
app.
Notice we didn't talk about AI today?
(58:02):
So as you can tell, this has been
forefront of my mind.
And, you know, my team has been discussing
it too. We've been having a good discussion
about this. Oh, and by the way, I
did this show on my birthday.
So,
if that doesn't call for dedication,
nothing does.
(58:23):
Alright.
We're gonna get out of here. I say
we. I.
We is those of you on the livestream
and those of you that have been watching
on YouTube.
And, I wanna thank everyone for being here.
Feel free to give Rob an email too.
But I'm
(58:44):
geek new better just do the the the
personal email. Geeknews@gmail.com.
Geek news at Gmail dot com. What do
you wanna hear? What do you who do
you want me to talk to? What do
you want me to cover?
Should we change to the new media show
to the old media show, or what what
should we do?
It's been my pleasure to bring you the
(59:05):
podcast today. I'll be, back here. I'm pretty
sure next Wednesday, same time, same, channel. For
those of you who wanna watch it live
at 03:00,
may have to bring in a sponsor now.
No.
I'm not gonna do that. My GoDaddy sponsor
has been doing very well. As you if
you heard last week on the show, we
we had another good month. So,
(59:26):
but, thank you. And,
yes,
boost, if you
will. And,
send your comments or, again, drop me an
email. We'll cover them in the show. Comment
on the blog. Why not?
At new media show dot com. Please follow.
Alright, everybody. Take care. We'll see you next
week. Bye bye.
Well, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the new
media show. Of course, I'm I'm stepping on
my cable here. A great way to start
the show.
Yeah.
I'm here solo.
And,
yeah, Rob is not with us today, and,
I would just, you know, kinda start out,
(00:24):
just kinda, you know,
acknowledging
that,
you know, Rob had expressed to me that,
you know, maybe the show should change.
I didn't know if he wanted to continue.
I'm not gonna speak for Rob. I hope
Rob will be back for,
future episodes.
Always welcome,
(00:44):
here. And and I'm not saying that,
this is, the end of the show as
we know it.
But definitely, you know, there's there's some potential
change here.
And, you know, we had we've had a
really super, super
long run,
many, many years. I'd just have to go
back and look in the calendar, but it's
(01:04):
been more than ten years of doing the
show.
And,
you know, the journey
of this podcast really started
many years ago with a show that we're
doing called the Saturday morning tech show.
And,
you know, we end up talking about podcasting
more than we're talking about tech.
(01:25):
And, Rob had been part of the, you
know, inaugural group of folks over at Tech
Podcast Network at techpodcast.com,
helped us with streaming,
features. They just, you know, some stuff that
we're doing early on that, podcasters really weren't
doing. But, you know, Robert had this, you
know, this syndicated radio show that he'd been
doing.
(01:45):
So in a long story short, you know,
we've known each other really since probably the
beginning, 2005
or so.
And,
and then,
you know, we just aligned. And, of course,
Rob's worked for everybody in the in the
business and knows a lot about the space.
And I, you know, I completely respect that
and respect Rob's opinions. And,
(02:07):
and I know that,
you know, Rob is focused on a lot
of the stuff that's happening in AI
and in in video,
and that's fair. You know?
Times change. He's not working for a, quote,
unquote, podcasting company at the moment.
So, you know, he gets the freedom of
being able to,
you know, definitely
(02:28):
dig deep into those,
into those topics as well. And and and
I'm, yeah, I'm very happy for him.
So we'll see.
But at this point,
and, again, we'll see. Maybe next week could
be different. Who knows?
But definitely, we'll be inviting on some folks
to
(02:49):
to have discussions,
and sometimes they're gonna be going solo.
But there's a big enough audience that's associated
with this. I just you know, the the
emails that we've got
and,
the stuff that came in
via comments.
Andrew had said, hey. I hope it isn't
the end. I like listening to the banter
from two long industry experts. I firmly
(03:11):
I'm firmly in the audio first side, but
I don't see a problem with beep with
people saying video is up and coming. Audio
is portable.
It takes less effort to produce audios better
for me.
He says, I think the push for video
should be shorts and reels as a marketing
strategy for an audio podcast. I have been
doing that
for a show and getting some
(03:32):
comments interaction that I don't generally get from
the audio podcast,
which will hopefully grow the show and not
just my social accounts, but it gives me
more content
and discussion points to bring,
in the show regardless. I'm thinking of doing
the same with my own shows, record video,
doing clips, TikTok,
YouTube, Blue Sky, etcetera.
(03:52):
And he says, in fact, the only video
podcast I watch in video format is a
new media show. If you change the name,
how about the audio first show? I
don't know if that works or not, but,
Andrew, thank you for your comments. There was
one other
that came in via a,
a boost, and let's see if I can
load that.
(04:14):
A boost had come in from Silas on
Linux. He says,
keep going to the show. Just make it
not two hours and go in circles less.
I don't know if we can get individuals
to keep making new great RSS formats because
people don't know Open RS is great and
care.
Right now, we need to keep a focus
on making RSS better and convincing companies and
networks to keep at it.
(04:36):
And then through that, we may get more
great podcasts. Going to individuals
is really hard. YouTube, x, Twitch, Instagram, and
Spotify are fantastic
that people know and like. So I absolutely
agree
as well.
Silas also says I was there two days.
Well, one and one and a half. Went
(04:57):
to the hotel early day when the talks
were mostly really good and almost very full.
This is talking about the podcast show.
He had, like, six stages or something. It
feels to me like the bigger talk stages
probably made the event seem less alive,
but there's constantly hundreds of people missing. Oh,
there was huge, huge,
huge numbers in there. And, again, another boost
(05:18):
from Silas, and I also attended the advertising
video show. It was nice to meet Todd,
some of the other people there. So, Silas,
thanks for your feedback. I don't know if
Rob got an email. I didn't get any,
direct.
So, maybe Rob did. And,
but,
I noticed this morning, Rob canceled the, long
standing
(05:38):
03:00 appointment we had for today, and I'll
talk to Rob and and kinda get some
some feedback. But,
you know, I I I've, wrote an agenda
for today. Yes. That's normally that normally Rob
had been doing that.
But
I wanna just make sure
as as we talk about podcasting,
(06:01):
which I still consider new media, You guys
gotta understand.
And I think, you know, those of you
that listen to the show
that, you know, many of us in the
space, Rob included and others,
live, breathe, think,
shower
thinking about podcasting.
(06:22):
And, you know, that my life revolves
completely
around,
helping creators and, you know, running a business
and doing everything that you need to do
to make that successful.
And I keep one of the things I
keep telling my team
is to make sure we have to stay
(06:45):
focused.
And
we while we've built some cool tools for
AI,
we're looking at things for video. Talk about
that here more in a minute.
We need to make sure we're not
throwing the baby out with bathwater.
(07:05):
Audio. Audio is this super incredible powerful
medium
that I know right now many of you
have got
this show
plugged into your head. You're listening via earbuds
or however you may be listening in the
shower, in the car, at the gym, on
the go, in front of the TV watching
(07:26):
it. Who you you know, you're consuming this
show a lot of different ways,
but you have specifically
decided that you're going to listen to this
show, and that's a big difference.
NOAA logarithm
has has,
fed you this show. You've chose you've you've,
by choice,
(07:49):
decided to listen to this. Now
are you gonna continue to listen? I don't
know.
I guess it depends on how interesting it
gets.
And I will say that, you know, I've
been pretty firm
and, you know, for many, many years
that I truly believe
that
podcasting in its open form
(08:11):
is the last fashion of free speech
where a platform
such as YouTube, such as Spotify cannot take
content down.
I'm not aware of content being taken down
on YouTube, but I am aware of content
that's taken down on Spotify for a variety
of reasons.
And sometimes I get tired of forwarding those
(08:33):
emails to legal and to my support team
to go look.
In fact, sometimes it comes in by the
dozens of episodes that have been removed and
more than more more often than not, it's
because of music.
So, you know, that's understandable. Spotify has a
a terms of service, and they don't want
music in their podcast.
(08:57):
So my thought process
has been
at least
for a while
and seeing the influx of new content creators
coming in,
are we leaving
creators behind?
Are we leaving
new
(09:18):
potential
podcasters behind?
And I think the answer to that right
now is yes.
And I talked about it in the last
show. But I think we have
to be, as an industry,
advocating advocating
for audio creators
(09:40):
and also,
if they so wish, to do video.
But I think what we have done
and based upon the discussions,
the calls that I have on a weekly
basis
and I I had a call this morning
with a individual.
And the exact words, Todd, this beeping video
(10:01):
is hard.
And
the individual has a successful audio show.
So we understand
doing video well is hard. I'm man, I
screw it up half the time anyway.
I screw up audio.
(10:22):
But
is the industry leaders effectively protecting podcasting's open
star standard?
I think
many have become to realize
the importance of it more than ever,
especially the folks that are part of the
Podcast Standards Project.
I think they all fully understand
(10:43):
the
the,
the importance
of open open RSS, which has been from
the beginning.
And
but
the industrial complex, as Adam and other folks
like to come and refer to us,
you know, there's been so much focus around
(11:08):
the monetization
monetization
monetization
if we forget
what a majority
of audio podcasters
want
in creating content. I would I had a
interview yesterday,
with Chris, from over at Podfest,
(11:29):
and him and I spent an hour,
talking about,
you know, indie content creators.
We talked about the audio, the video, the,
you know, the, you know, where
this community
of
and Chris told me, he's I think the
phone number of folks that are not worried
about making money is at about 85%.
(11:51):
I said 70. He said 85. He said,
I don't think
I think your number is wrong. But, again,
depends on what event you go to. If
you go to Podfest,
it's probably 85%
of the people that are not entirely focused
on making money, but at the same time,
they have sessions and tracks for monetization.
(12:14):
Where you flip the script and you go
to podcast movement,
I would say 75%
of the people there are looking to make
money in connections and sponsorships.
So it's a different show
per se.
And
I go back to this
the statement is not being done
(12:34):
as I, as a podcast host,
is it am I
doing enough to support creators?
I feel we are in their rights.
And, basically,
you know, I can count on probably
two hands in twenty years, the number of
shows I've had to take down because of
(12:56):
something they said.
And it was usually something so egregious
that it was like, oh, my god. You
know, where where are you coming from? Mars,
you know.
Otherwise,
you know, we protected creators' rights.
We've encouraged creators' independence.
You know, I I, you know, I look
(13:17):
at my role in saying, own your brand
on yourown.com.
Control your feed. Control you know, you own
you.
So I think, you know, I've done my
part in that regard.
But the podcast industrial complex, which is
largely made up of companies that are focused
(13:39):
on making money,
taking 50% of ad revenue or 70%,
you know, whatever their their split is
with podcasters
for representation
and and the drive to
fill more inventory.
That part of the industry
(14:00):
has different goals than I do
as
the founder of a podcast hosting company. And
twenty years later, I'm still a podcaster.
And I understand the challenges and the ups
and flows. And just like this show, here
we are. We've got a little bit of
a change. Right? A little bit of change
(14:21):
here.
And that change isn't always bad.
Things change over time.
People have different,
you know, maybe get tired of talking about
certain stuff. It happens.
It's it's life.
But
what we have failed
and what we have failed
(14:43):
as an industry
is
our speed of adoption
and innovation
and reinvention.
It's it's like a slug.
Feels to me it's just crawling
in innovation.
(15:04):
There's a group, you guys know who we're
gonna talk about, there's a group that's going
like lightning fire.
But yet,
the rest of the industry
is doing the same thing, rinse, wash, repeat.
And in my opinion, it's not good enough.
(15:25):
So
we have to,
as industry leaders and those that are listening
to this show that consider themselves industry leaders,
we have to advocate
for the value of audio and video podcasting
in their own separate ways.
There is a story line
(15:46):
for advocating for audio.
There is a story line for advocating
for video.
There's no
doubt.
To be blind to that is, you know,
I don't like it.
But I've been doing video for so many
years and, you know,
it's kind of hypocritical. Right?
(16:08):
So the industry
in new feature adoption and, yes, podcasting two
point o features
is too fucking slow.
It's too slow.
And too many hard heads in the industry
that don't try to understand what it is.
(16:28):
They don't care what it is because
they're focused on a different thing.
They're focused on making money.
Not focused on
helping
the creator
space have new tools,
new features,
new engagement to build community with
(16:51):
the creators in the in the community. What
do we want as podcasters?
I tell you what I want. I want
your feedback. Right?
I wanna hear from you. I wanna know
what you think about the show. I wanna
know what I did wrong. I want you
to chew my ass out when I'm wrong.
I wanna hear that.
And we've made it very, very hard. Are
(17:12):
we doing it now? Email.
We've got this great thing called value for
value, but it's kinda broke right now a
little bit.
You know, one of the comments that I
read at the beginning of the show is
from the blog.
Someone actually took the time and made a
comment on the blog. I can't tell you
(17:32):
how long it's been since someone made a
comment on the new media show blog.
Matter of fact, I was shocked. I locked
in there. I said, oh, there's a comment.
Because we it's been too hard.
Look look at the engagement they have on
YouTube.
Look at the chat, the super chat, all
those features.
We envy for that,
(17:53):
and yet we've had the ability to make
that happen now for a while. And guess
where we've been?
We've been slugs
and crawling like snails
and not adopting stuff.
Is every adoption gonna change the world?
No.
But cumulative,
a lot of smart people with a lot
(18:15):
of good ideas have added some things that
should,
in principle,
help creators
connect with their audience,
help them have a feedback loop,
get that dopamine hit from every time someone
says I love your show, I hate your
show, whatever they say.
Make it easy for that interaction to happen.
(18:35):
Make it easy for a listener to donate
to a show.
Make it easier for me to promote shows
that I love,
give credit to the people that are on
the show with me, all these cool
things that we have added
and the major
(18:56):
podcast apps,
excluding Apple and Spotify,
have been slow
to adopt or didn't adopt at all.
Marco at Overcast, what has he adopted?
Nothing.
Pocket cast? Yep. They've adopted some stuff.
(19:20):
We've hurt ourselves.
And this is why the shift is happening
is
egos
and feedback
on your content
is often the dopamine hit a podcaster needs
to continue
to improve,
to grow their audience.
(19:41):
So
we have to get off our
our butts.
And
we
have to to say,
risk be damned.
We need to adopt
these features in mass.
Now I wanna talk about
(20:04):
something that I've been talking about. I'm I'm
gonna get to HLS
this in a minute.
But
we need to advance the space, and we
have the ideas
and features
to help advance the space. Will it be
the golden
egg that the goose lay? No.
(20:26):
It's not.
It's not, but it's incremental things that will
help.
The extension of Open RSS.
Isn't that a beautiful word
or sentence?
The extension of open RSS?
That that that that should ring. That should
be like,
(20:47):
there should be angels singing, you know, extending
open RSS
instead of going into
lockdown silos?
Who's the lockdown silos? We know who they
are. Right?
(21:08):
So in London,
we had a
I I missed the first meeting. I missed
the lunch
for the podcast standards project.
And,
you know, I I love the idea
behind the Podcast Standards Project. Some hate it.
There's a few podcast host
(21:29):
employees
that hate it.
They think it's some controlling agency.
But,
you know, it was a good discussion,
and there was definitely near unanimous agreement
that we need to do something with video.
Now
I have to play devil's advocate here because
(21:51):
Rob's not here.
But
we have a system today,
t o d a y,
today,
that works.
We don't have to make any changes.
You just gotta open up
video hosting for your podcast hosting platform.
(22:12):
Make it available.
Yes. They'll have to create two feeds.
One show for audio, one show for video.
Is it perfect? No. That's what we've been
doing forever, and it's available right now to
and ready to rock and roll.
8080%
of you listen to the show, 20% of
you watch.
(22:33):
So you host today
can
embrace
video
immediately
immediately,
and things will work out of the back.
You don't have to do any other work.
No you you might have to enable m
p four in your system or whatever.
There'll be and maybe you have to have
a player.
(22:53):
But the lift to to support video
is easy.
No hiccups.
Number one. So that could be done by
all hosts tomorrow.
Will they do it?
I don't think so.
We already had the discussion about Apple
(23:16):
and what Apple what we want Apple to
do,
but we can talk to her blue interface
to Apple
and beg and not necessarily beg, but, you
know, please, you know, you know, come in
again, you know, make video, you know, not
it's just like, you know, like, we're like
kids.
And, like, please, daddy, can I have some
candy?
(23:40):
And it really is not that bad.
But, you know, it goes back to,
you know, I talked to you guys before.
It's like this contractor speak. You know, when
I was working for the government, it was
like, oh, they would contact their community. Oh,
we should do this and this and this
and this and this. I said, oh, that
that's interesting.
I could never say that's a great idea.
(24:01):
I could never say that looks good. I
could never say let's implement. I could never
commit. I could not make a committal statement
or even hint around a committal statement
because,
well, Todd said we could do it. He
said it was a great idea. Here's your
bill for $1,000,000.
(24:22):
That's the kind of
and it's literally that.
And maybe not to that extreme, but pretty
doggone close.
So So when we're asking Apple and others,
please support video, make it a first class
citizen,
they have to go, interesting.
(24:42):
Oh, okay.
We're hearing you.
But that's it.
That's all they can say.
Because it's the Apple way. Keep your mouth
shut or be fired.
So even if all the podcast hosts tomorrow
supported video,
(25:04):
we have a handful of apps that
support it natively.
I know matter of fact, I I I
got a message today from the fountain folks.
They're gonna support it natively, and there's a
number of apps. I wrote a thing on
LinkedIn. I've already pissed some people off. They've
they wrote me back.
But, you know, there's a handful of apps
(25:24):
that support video. Is it Apple Podcasts? No.
But what will happen if Apple Podcasts makes
video a first class citizen? All hell will
break loose.
In a in a instant
overnight,
vid every podcaster that's doing video will want
to be on Apple Podcasts.
Why?
(25:44):
Why not?
What's my what's my motive or my my
hypo not my hypothesis. My my my comment
forever has been I don't care where you
listen, long as you listen
or watch. I guess I can add that
to that comment.
Don't care. And for as long as this
(26:04):
show has been doing
live, we've had a video podcast. Ever since
I think Geek News Central, I started, like,
episode 600.
I'm on 18 hundreds. That's what? Twelve, thirteen,
fourteen years,
something like that. Been doing a video podcast
in RSS, and 30% of the people watch
(26:26):
either on Apple TV, on Apple Podcasts,
on whatever app they're listening. I see it
in my statistics. They watch.
Why do they watch?
I don't know. They watch.
Why do they watch me? I don't know.
Why are you watching?
So
this HLS discussion,
(26:51):
we need to do HLS with an alternate
enclosure. And the immediate in my head,
okay. Fantastic.
It's beautiful.
Great idea.
No issue.
And,
but the challenge
(27:12):
there is
Alright. We're gonna put HLS in the alternate
enclosure.
Will Apple adopt that?
I don't wanna, you know, sound like Rob
Walsh.
But if they don't,
(27:32):
and we only get a handful of apps
to support HLS,
got me to thinking.
And on the podcast index
Mastodon yesterday started a hell
of a con it just the threads just
(27:54):
went on and on and on.
But I basically said,
The HLS disc discussion. Yes.
I know that Sarah Hov has seen the
light in terms of I'm calling this future
survival
and are looking at HLS.
(28:16):
Todd
from Blueberry
wants a definable commitment by all
podcasting two point o apps to support it.
If
we,
as host,
add this, it's gonna come at significant cost
to deliver the median HLS, and we'll talk
about that too.
(28:37):
And I'm just gonna say this, I'm not
spending a single
dev dollar.
I'm not spending a
single dev dollar
until there's a reciprocal commitment
by the majority of podcasting two point o
apps that are participating today
to support HLS video.
I've been the chicken.
(28:59):
Now I'm gonna be the egg.
The chicken needs to be the apps to
support HLS
because
ding ding ding ding ding ding because
video podcasting is supported today with no additional
dev work. I've already got it.
So this has to be a joint effort.
(29:21):
If I get the majority,
the majority of podcasting two point I said
all, but if I get majority of them,
90% of them to commit to supporting
HLS video via alternate closure, we'll build it.
But it's not gonna come for $20 a
(29:41):
month.
Fair warning.
Now
my team's done a fair amount of research.
We've been looking at this for a while
to do
HLS on Amazon AWS. Let me just give
you a little
insight,
a little insider
(30:03):
baseball
insight onto the cost of HLS.
If I was using AWS
media convert of the
let's just look at a two gig video
file,
and that's someone that's encoding at,
you know, ten eighty p,
relatively good frame rate,
(30:23):
maybe about an hour's worth of content.
That media convert is gonna cost 90¢.
That's ding ding. That's number one.
The s three storage is gonna cost a
nickel.
The s three data transfer
is another 10¢ because we're gonna be copying
over multiple files, multiple, you know, segments.
(30:45):
So so what are we up to? Up
to a dollar 5 just
for the first section of the video.
Then
CloudFront
requests every time an HLS video is being
played and every click so what happens is
with HLS is they they chop
(31:05):
the content up into
well, on average,
I guess there's, like, seven like, every 10,
there's a there's a chop.
And a two and calculated
out a two hour would have, like, 7,200
segments.
Each of those segments is a request that
comes back
from CloudFront, and I pay for those requests.
(31:27):
What does it cost? 75¢
a million.
Oh, that's not too bad, Todd.
So let's think about this. It's if there's
7,200
slices in a single video,
you divide that by a million, it's a
38.
So now we're getting more interesting.
At At a 38,
(31:49):
take a thousand
thousand plays,
thousand people played a video,
and divide that by 30. I think the
math was, like, 5.34
or something like that, whatever the number was.
And
five time and let me see. I actually
got the math in one of the post.
See if I can find the the actual
(32:11):
the segment here.
Yeah. Here it is. A thousand plays divided
by a 38
equals 7.24
times 75¢
equals $5.43.
So we already talked about
I'm already a dollar. What did I say?
I was a dollar
(32:32):
dollar $5.90
doll dollar 5. We add another
$5.43.
We're up to $6.06
50 essentially,
and then I gotta pay for bandwidth.
So then it's just pure
whatever your decimal
to the right is of
or decimal to the left
is on your gigabit cost.
(32:53):
You just pay that. So you figure a
two gigabit file.
Let's just say a two gig, it's two
gigs,
and if they listen to all the way
to the end, this is the key factor,
if they listen all the way to the
end, you're probably looking at
a penny.
Now, if they deliver a thousand, to deliver
(33:14):
a thousand no. To deliver one,
you're looking at
at two gigs,
maybe half a cent.
So do that math. I think it's still
when you get done and multiply by,
half a cent times a thousand.
(33:35):
What is that? $5?
And so now
and if I did the math wrong, don't
shoot me. You guys can correct me in
the comments.
But you guys can see where this cost
is for HLS delivery.
Now that's on Amazon.
I would never do HLS on Amazon.
(33:55):
There's not a chance.
Not a not a not a chance on
on earth at this point. What I would
probably do
is go to a cheaper solution, and there
are cheaper solutions out there.
CloudFlare has something called,
CloudFlare Stream,
and it's it looks wonderful. You look at
(34:15):
the pricing on it. Yeah. I'm gonna bring
it up here. You you you you you
see this whoops. Hang on. Let me get
the right screen up for those of you
that are,
this Cloud for a Stream. The pricing looks
fine.
You know? You you're looking at this, and,
you know, you think, wow.
Creator bundle starting at $50 a month.
(34:37):
80 5 months in savings. All the features
are up to 500,000
images and 10,000
of video.
Go up to a million images and fifty
thousand minutes of video. So, oh, that that
sounds fantastic. So let let's get the calculator
out again,
and we take 50,000,
(35:00):
and then we divide that by 60,
what do we have? 833
plays.
So
it's
sounds great
until it isn't because
CloudFlare has this
nice little habit
of them seeing you use a lot of
(35:22):
bandwidth,
a lot of storage,
and a lot of calls, and they call
you and say, hey. What are you doing?
This is a creator bundle.
This is not a company bundle.
So guess what we wanna do? Here's our
contract.
And sign the contract for a year or
you get shut off.
(35:45):
So this Cloudflare thing is good for a
micro scale.
Alright. So and we're getting some comments on
Facebook, so I'll try to get those read
here in a second.
Sam is saying all podcasting two apps support
(36:06):
HLS today
for live streaming, not for on demand. I
haven't seen anybody in anyway, long story short,
it's expensive.
Okay. So
with that being said okay. Podcast host,
what are you gonna charge?
(36:26):
Can't lose money on this. You don't stay
in business and lose money.
You know, there's someone in the podcasting space
that's doing something cool. He's running his own
servers,
and we've had a, you know, interesting conversation
in a WhatsApp group that's made up of
a bunch of industry people.
And
(36:47):
that conversation
has been
good. I'm like, wow. You've been you you
don't have to charge for bandwidth?
Fantastic.
You're able to just price it, you know,
on a different model? Great. You're running your
own hardware.
And then when you boil down and
(37:08):
look at
what they're doing,
here's what happens.
And Libsyn run into this in the early
days of podcasting.
On any connection,
it's called a session.
And depending on the server you have, you
have
(37:28):
and how much memory you have and how
much how much bandwidth you have,
that
server is limited to an a not infinite
number of sessions.
It's,
let's say, 2,000 sessions,
and it may be more. But let's just
say 2,000 sessions is what
(37:50):
the
server will support. 2,000 sessions delivering video
at speed
with no lag.
What happens when there's a million sessions?
When you when you have and you guys
can watch Podpink when you can see how
fast new episodes are being
(38:10):
hit.
When a new episode hits
and in the current infrastructure with m p
four
and m p three
and then grabbing that media and some podcast
apps downloading it. The smart people on video
podcasting are not doing that. They have it
set to play on demand.
But for those that do download that,
(38:32):
audio or video, that session opens up. The
session stays open as long as that media
takes to get from the server
to you.
And on some big shows, for the first
two hours that a the episode has been
out, it's lots of sessions. Tens of thousands
of sessions for big shows. Small shows, number.
But if you take 10,000
(38:54):
shows
and that they're in in any
percentage of them are publishing a new episode
within twelve hours, You have to have the
thorough put in session
capacity
to deliver all that media in a timely
if you have all small shows, very simple
to run on your own hardware.
(39:18):
Cost effective.
But when you get a lot of sessions,
things fall over and flat on their face.
Now the advantage on HLS,
you play,
you stop, that's it. You use amount of
bandwidth for the time period that you're listening.
You don't list the whole time. You save
on that percentage point, but still, that session
(39:39):
is open that whole time.
And what kind of infrastructure do you need
on scale for the whole podcasting community that
decides they're gonna do video
when Apple Podcast says, hey. We're making app
a video of first class citizen.
People have no
idea
(39:59):
what is about to hit them.
The only way you can deliver
HLS
effectively
en masse
is via CDN,
a big one
at significant cost,
it's going to cost something.
And the pure fact of the matter is
(40:21):
fixed media
is a lot cheaper to deliver
than HLS
ever will be. So I'm I'm still again,
okay. We wanna do this HLS thing. You
wanna do very,
alternate enclosure?
Okay.
But do you really know what that means?
(40:44):
Do you really
understand what that means at scale
and what that impact
is gonna be?
I do. We did the math,
and it's not gonna cost $20 a month.
I don't think I can do it
without extreme risk
(41:05):
for under additional $50 a month to provide
HLS. You want just straight
m p four delivery? Yeah. No problem. We
we can do that. I can probably do
that at, an easy probably for $20 additional
month. No no issue.
But HLS,
that's a different animal. And what are the
advantages we're getting?
(41:26):
What's the only advantage
HLS is giving?
Variable playback on demand, not filling the device's
hard drive with media. But yet for fifteen
years,
we've been doing video podcast the traditional way,
and no one's complained.
We've never
(41:46):
never
not one
not one complaint
from a listener
that you're taking up too much storage
in my device?
Not one
ever.
Have we ever had a playback complaint?
Not one
ever
(42:07):
Ever.
So
what if someone caches that content? Say, Todd,
we'll take the m p four. We'll pull
it in. Convert to HLS. We'll cache it.
Hey.
Yay. Let's go.
But send me a signal back that says
that you've
you've played it.
(42:29):
So what is the benefit? The benefit is
only for the listener.
Only and what's the negative? Can't watch HLS
on an airplane.
Can't watch that video while you're 25,000
(42:50):
feet.
Doesn't work.
You have to have an Internet connection.
So
it's all fun and games until you have
to pay the bill.
Yes. Business cost it money. Now why
(43:11):
now why
why does
why does
YouTube
have have this beautiful platform
that
serves
video via HLS?
They own the data center.
They own the fiber.
They own the equipment that's in the racks
(43:33):
at the ISPs.
They do caching,
and they do it at scale. And, essentially
and this is, you know, this is really
being not nice to YouTube, but they pay
for electricity
and maintenance
and
upgrades.
Almost all that other stuff
(43:55):
is almost zero.
But yet YouTube has never said how much
money they've made. You don't know if YouTube
is profitable.
They're pushing people to subscribe
because delivery of this stuff is not cheap
if you don't
own
the infrastructure.
They can do this because they own
(44:16):
the infrastructure.
So
I think it's great. I like what the
podcast standards project is doing. I like the
discussion that's happening out there right now. I
like the reactions.
But
(44:37):
is it really
feasible
for me to spend a lot of money
for something that is gonna go in a
small number of apps? I'm sounding like Rob
Walsh again
at this point.
Can I be ready if YouTube flips the
(44:59):
switch? I mean, not YouTube. Apple flips the
switch and makes
video a first class citizen again? Oh, for
sure.
But I'm already supporting
Apple Podcasts with video.
And let's just be frank, I know some
people are saying, you gotta give the apps
a chance.
Yeah. We we we are.
(45:20):
But as a podcast host,
I was willing to go out and build
the features that needed the chicken first.
Really was.
But I just don't think that
anyone is really truly ready.
(45:44):
Just watch my video on m p four
in alternate enclosure.
Same experience. Listener doesn't know the difference.
They really don't.
Never seen anyone complain.
So if the Podcasting two point o app
support HLS,
great. Then let's see then let me look
(46:05):
in my let's start adding the alternate enclosure
m p fours to, and we'll see
how many people actually use that feature in
that show listing.
We'll see
then. Because, again,
you gotta think about
the reward here
for video. I know we need to support
(46:26):
video, but guess what? We already do.
Video podcasting is fully supported in open podcasting
today.
My contention is you do not need HLS.
But, boy, it sounds sexy.
(46:49):
So let's fix the problem
by supporting something that is not supported
in Apple Podcasts.
Oh.
The how oh, Apple Podcasts supports video?
Apple TV?
You mean I watch the show on Apple
TV? Yes.
(47:13):
It's not YouTube.
So I I think
you guys see where I'm going here.
So
I'm just coming at this from the reality.
Again, the reality
(47:34):
oh, what happened here? A reality of a
a hosting provider.
So I got a boost here. Who who
sent the boost? I gotta look.
It came in.
Yes.
Mike says open is a keyword. 1,701
sets. Thank you, Mike.
(47:56):
Again, we're gonna be open even with HLS.
But
I, as a hosting provider doing the math,
can go on risk today
and offering video to any podcaster
that's out there
with a cap.
You're gonna get a cap.
(48:16):
You go over this much
transfer,
you're gonna have to go to pro. I'm
sorry.
Because
I'm not gonna put servers somewhere
that's sitting in a rack that I'm paying
rent for
to serve that media and then run into
an issue when I don't have enough concurrent
(48:37):
connections.
So there there's there's
there's lots of ways to weigh this.
With the CDN right now I have, I
had if they need more concurrent connections, they
spin up more ponies.
I don't have to do that. They do
that. It's all automated.
(48:57):
You think when Joe Rogan drops,
how many concurrent connections do you think are
going on to download his episode?
Hundreds of thousands
of concurrent connection just for his single show
that literally within seconds of his episode dropping.
(49:18):
None of us are Joe Rogan.
But, collectively,
a thousand shows dropping an episode within the
same hour
is the same
effect as Joe Rogan.
Because we know that the first forty eight
excuse me. The first hundred and twenty minutes
of a show posting
(49:39):
is this dramatic,
explosive
automated
download
spike that happens
immediately.
Used to be
used to be
the RSS feed was tied to the Apple
Podcasts
app.
That the RSS feed was actually here
(49:59):
and not at Apple,
so everyone updated
at a different pace.
So
you didn't get this immediate
slam.
And
since the change,
the dramatic upswing in immediate downloads,
(50:21):
or which would be HLS plays,
if they come to that, would be massive
in that first sixty minutes. Well,
I guess not because they wouldn't automatically be
downloading. They'd have to manually click play.
So I might be all wrong here. I
wanna hear from all of you
and whether or not I'm crazy or not.
(50:43):
But let's just
lay the cards where they may lay.
The question I have and I, you know,
hats off to Podbean, hats off to Libsyn.
Where the hell have the rest of you
been
in supporting video podcasting?
Where have you been?
(51:04):
Why haven't you done it?
I'd always amazed me that there's just three
of us.
There's more, correct me.
I I was amazed.
Still amazed
because the margins aren't
(51:25):
bigger.
The margins are much smaller.
And none of us having raised our hosting
prices,
any of us raised our hosting prices ever,
you narrow that margin,
what do you gotta do?
(51:45):
You gotta raise the price.
Is that why other podcast hosts haven't
raised the price of or haven't supported video?
So it's it's it's it's a multifactor thing
here,
And I'm trying to tie this back together.
Number one.
(52:06):
The apps
need to get with it.
We wanna compete with YouTube.
We wanna compete
with Spotify,
the independent podcasting apps have to get with
it.
Number two, we need to remember that you
don't have to do video.
(52:29):
You don't have to.
Audio is fine.
Audio listening audiences are growing.
They're not going away.
Matter of fact, because there's fewer shows creating
content, those are those that are creating content
are now seeing more growth than they've ever
seen.
(52:53):
So I'm hoping
may maybe I'm just talking into the ether
here.
I don't know.
I know that what we will continue to
do is we will continue to be a,
audio first platform for podcasters. We support video.
(53:14):
As a company, we're AI first
leaning in.
We understand the importance of that to make
us more lean and mean.
Everything that has been talked about by the
podcast standards project does align with
preserving
RSS and the open ecosystem.
(53:36):
So that falls in line with the model.
So I guess I'm asking all of you
to weigh in.
What should our priorities be?
Where where do we need where are our
priorities? And I'm gonna go back and say
that we're still not doing enough to support
(53:59):
creators
as a community.
Maybe enough is being done on the monetization
side, but
as
as, Chris Kormosos said, my per Chris Kormosos.
I screw his last name up every time.
Sorry, Chris.
What are what are we doing for the
80 other 85%?
(54:21):
And,
shame on those that have forgotten about those
creators.
So
I'm not gonna go ninety minutes today, but
I will say
that
I'm not gonna guarantee an episode every week,
but I'm gonna try.
(54:41):
And I'm gonna try to continue the mission
at advocacy
of open podcasting.
If this becomes my place to rant, maybe
that's a good thing. I don't know.
And maybe I'm wrong.
And if I'm wrong in these in these
comments, please let me know. Now let me
(55:02):
go back here. We had some comments that
come in.
Randall said the push to video is just
the latest fad in podcast. They mentioned it
will die back down and return to status
quo.
Maybe.
Spotify,
Ugly Face by Randall. Sam said that all
podcasting two apps support HLS today.
(55:25):
They may not they may support HLS, but
they do not all support HLS video. That's
true.
Some only playback the audio from the HLS
stream. Well, again,
until it's a good experience when someone can
flip with the push of a button, I
think we have some ways to go. But,
again,
you can see you they can watch video
(55:46):
with them before.
And
the question is,
really,
why?
Why do we have to go to HLS?
Why?
Because the stream is sexier. We're gonna get
more data.
We're gonna get more information to be able
to monetize.
(56:07):
Is that the reason?
That's some of the stuff I've heard.
Randall says we have a long ways to
go. Oh, I agree.
(56:30):
So
I think I've talked out here.
I'm just trying to think what I missed.
So I'm gonna try to have some guest.
I wanna hear your input.
We've gotten some input already,
but I think we need some listeners
(56:50):
to weigh in.
We need the audience
to tell us
what we're not doing for them.
Isn't that the folks that is most important
for?
If the listeners tell us
chat is more important than video,
or they're able to one click support
(57:13):
a podcaster with revenue is more important than
video,
What do the listeners say?
Shouldn't the listeners be setting our priorities
so that
we make them happy and they wanna listen
to our content on these apps?
(57:37):
Think so.
So maybe that'll be the goal too is
to get some listeners on here, non podcasters.
So they can they can tell us what
they think.
Find out how many are watching on YouTube
and how many are listening on a podcast
app.
Notice we didn't talk about AI today?
(58:02):
So as you can tell, this has been
forefront of my mind.
And, you know, my team has been discussing
it too. We've been having a good discussion
about this. Oh, and by the way, I
did this show on my birthday.
So,
if that doesn't call for dedication,
nothing does.
(58:23):
Alright.
We're gonna get out of here. I say
we. I.
We is those of you on the livestream
and those of you that have been watching
on YouTube.
And, I wanna thank everyone for being here.
Feel free to give Rob an email too.
But I'm
(58:44):
geek new better just do the the the
personal email. Geeknews@gmail.com.
Geek news at Gmail dot com. What do
you wanna hear? What do you who do
you want me to talk to? What do
you want me to cover?
Should we change to the new media show
to the old media show, or what what
should we do?
It's been my pleasure to bring you the
(59:05):
podcast today. I'll be, back here. I'm pretty
sure next Wednesday, same time, same, channel. For
those of you who wanna watch it live
at 03:00,
may have to bring in a sponsor now.
No.
I'm not gonna do that. My GoDaddy sponsor
has been doing very well. As you if
you heard last week on the show, we
we had another good month. So,
(59:26):
but, thank you. And,
yes,
boost, if you
will. And,
send your comments or, again, drop me an
email. We'll cover them in the show. Comment
on the blog. Why not?
At new media show dot com. Please follow.
Alright, everybody. Take care. We'll see you next
week. Bye bye.
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