Exploring the Inner Workings of Fishing: An Insightful Journey with John McMurray

Curious about the inner workings of fishing and the politics that surround it? We promise you an enlightening journey in our latest episode, We delve deeper into the fishing world with the revered John McMurray, dissecting his significant contributions that shaped fishing laws, current regulations, and the potential looming shutdown of the spring striped bass season.

Fishing enthusiasts, brace yourselves as seasoned angler, John McMurray, uncovers the exciting evolution of his fishing charter business! Catch McMurray as he throws light on the transition from casting topwater lures for largemouth bass to venturing into offshore trips. Listen to his tales of the resurgence of bluefin tuna and the adrenaline rush of having them on the hook. The discussion takes an interesting turn as John highlights fishing techniques and popper selection, underlining the importance of setting the hook when a fish strikes. 

As we tie a knot on this captivating episode, we scrutinize the current state of the fishing industry, discussing the increase in fish population from the lower New York Harbor area all the way up to Canada. We navigate through the data recalibration of 2017-2018 and the government-set spawning stock biomass target. Rounding off, John McMurray harks back to his days as a conservationist and charter captain, recounting the impressive shifts in the Northeast's fishing industry over the past three decades and its effect on the striped bass fishery. Join us in this insightful debate on striking the right balance between fishing participation and conservation. Don't miss out on this episode filled with fishing tales and deeper discussions on the industry's future!

Episode Transcript

George Scocca (00:00):
Hello New York Anglers.
This is George Skaka and you'relistening to the New York
Fishing Podcast that would bebrought to you by nyanglercom,
your secret spot online.
I don't talk enough aboutNewYorkAnglercom.
That's my website, which is runby many of the same folks

(00:22):
around the old Norsecom, andit's just a treasure trove of
fishing information which many,many anglers have discovered
here in New York.
So make sure you stop by.
If you don't, I guess you'renot a real angler.

(00:42):
Just remember everything thereis free.
We don't charge a dime foranything.
So just go on there and you'regoing to find articles, fishing
reports, all kinds of greatstuff.
So before we get to our guest,who is a great guest, john
McMurray.
He's a great tuna fisherman,probably one of the better, if

(01:06):
not the best, pop and jig tunacharter operations here in the
Northeast.
He's also a great bassfisherman.
He's a conservationist.
He's been involved for verylong.
I know him forever, so we'llget into that in a little while,
but before we do, I want tobring you an update on the

(01:28):
saltwater fishing license herein New York.
Some of you may not want tolisten to it, so jump to the
next chapter, if you do and youhave an agent.
First of all, if you don't wantto listen, shame on you.
You know, look, this is anissue that's going to affect
everyone and if we unite we canbeat this thing.

(01:50):
We've done it before and we cando it again.
So I just do want to mentionthat the as I'd like to say, and
so it begins.
So a letter went out on October5th.
For the record, today is Sunday, october 8th.

(02:11):
So on October 5th, the EdwardRomain, the town supervisor out
in Brookhaven, who's been aroundfor a long time, carries a lot
away politically sent a letterto Governor Huckle who, thinking
, has no clue what a fish evenis no offense, god, but it just

(02:35):
don't look like the fish in type.
And, regardless of my overallfeelings of Governor Cuomo, you
know he truly cared about us.
Anyhow, he sends this letterstating we're writing to express

(02:57):
our deep concern with therecent actions taken by the DEC
to reintroduce the solar waterfishing license.
This is on behalf of my 500,000residents in the town of
Brookhaven.
So, like I say, and so it begins, there are many other
politicians in the backgroundthat do want to hear from us and

(03:21):
know where we're at.
They're not sold on this.
They know it's just a moneygrab that's really not going to
do much.
It's hard to believe.
Like we don't know, you know.
I mean I'd like to point outone thing that while everyone's
saying it's the DEC and I guessit is the person behind and in
charge of this whole entirething is someone who's retired

(03:46):
from the DEC.
So I kind of don't understand.
You know I got to be missingsomething, but from what I
understand, it's been hired as aconsultant to move this solar
license through.
Why would that be?
Why would it not be coming fromour elected officials, the
people that we elect, to decidewho's going to tax us?

(04:07):
Because you could call this andyou could like.
They say you could put lipstickon a pig, but a pig is a pig.
And let me tell you somethingthis solar water license is a
tax.
No getting around it.
So, look, everyone's going tomake their own decision.
If you look at the facts, please, I do not.

(04:28):
I'm not sending out anydisinformation or misinformation
.
I don't know.
There's so many different wordsthey use now for that term.
I am bringing just the factsperiod and I can tell you right
now.
The facts are a.

(04:49):
We have a MRAC, which is Kind ofunbalanced on the recreational
side.
There's a few folks on therethat have been there like
forever and kind of reminds meof of our government.
There should be term limits.
There's just some people thathave out live their stay on

(05:13):
these boards, so they're nothearing from us, and there's a
few guys on a board or gals,whatever.
Actually, there is a gal onthat board that I really like a
lot, in that we think the sameway.
In any case.
Look, we can beat this thing.
We need to get people vocal.

(05:36):
So visit NYAnglercom.
There's a hit list there, orthere will be on by Tuesday, a
hit list of folks that we needto email and let them know that
we are opposed to assault or tofishing license.
So I'm going to jump right intomy guest, great guy Jomik Murray

(06:00):
.
I've known him for many, manyyears, in fact.
I look I could be wrong aboutthis, but I do believe that I
introduced him, not just myself,but me.
Charlie Wittig, I'm going tosay Willie Young was there at
the time, so was Bill and Nikki.
God bless both of their souls.
I miss them both so much.

(06:24):
You know, though, all thosefolks were there at the time and
we decided to hire JohnMcMurray and let me tell you
what that was for the CCN NewYork, which had just started and
we needed an executive director.
He stepped in from the CoastGuard and he took over and went
running with the thing and wedid really well.

(06:45):
I can't recall I mean I know itsounds like a low number but we
had over 2500 people that werepaying into the CCN New York to
be a member and help us do ourwork, which we really did a
great job in those days.
We got the bunker bill passed,we got the bass bill passed, we
got the black fill blackfishbill passed.

(07:07):
So John had something to dowith all of those and he is here
to talk about tuna fishing,striped bass fishing, and he
also gets into his thoughtsabout the current striped bass
regulations and the potentialfor a possible total shutdown of

(07:34):
the spring striped bass fishery.
Not saying that's happening, butI've been saying for years if
you listen to me or go tomyanglecom, I tell you this was
coming, this and also I give ittwo years, you won't be able to
take a bass out of the water totake a picture.
So some like two predictions.
Anyhow, I'm not going to keepblabbing, we're just going to

(07:57):
jump it over to Captain JohnMcMurray, my good friend and
fishing conservationist andcharter captain.
I'm on the line with one of myold friends and one of my
favorite anglers who really he'sstayed in the game and managed

(08:17):
to make a living out of it.
Many people don't know that Iwas one of the first people to
hire this guy straight out ofthe Coast Guard and we have
forever maintained to be friends.
This is John McMurray, tunafisherman extraordinaire, and

(08:38):
we're here to pick his brain ontuna and whatever else I can get
out of them.
So tell everyone, john first.
Welcome to the show.
And tell all listeners whatexactly I mean.
You're in the charter business.
Talk about your business alittle bit.

Captain John McMurray (08:56):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Thanks for having me, george,and it's interesting to hear
about the CCA stuff.
That must have been 20 yearsago.

George Scocca (09:04):
Oh, yeah, no longer, I think it was yesterday
.

Captain John McMurray (09:07):
Yeah.

George Scocca (09:08):
I know Wow.

Captain John McMurray (09:11):
Well, listen, I guess this is my 20th
year in the charter fishingbusiness.
I guess it had been full timefor about 10 years.
We got three offshore boats,three tuna boats 27 T they're
all contenders a 27 T, a 31 anda 36.
And the tuna thing, of course.

(09:31):
I kind of grew up or startedthis thing on inshore trips and
I've always been kind of aninshore guy, grew up largemouth
fishing and throwing poppers andswimbaits and topwater stuff
for largemouth and that's kindof.

(09:54):
When I came up here in the CoastGuard back in the early 90s
that was my thing.
I liked to throw topwater stufffor bass back in the marsh and
use light tackle and the wholefly fishing thing was just kind
of coming on the scene back then.
And as I grew the businessStriper started a tank way.

(10:14):
Back then they became lessavailable and that kind of
killed that solid fly fishinglight tackle business.
I mean you still get the guys.
It just wasn't something youcould really make a living on.
So I kind of expanded into theoffshore stuff.
Everybody was talking about theresurgence of bluefin tuna,
which, by the way, it was likethe poster child for overfishing

(10:38):
fisheries back then andreasonable management.
I mean, they started to comeback in spades and like, unless
you've been living in a cave,you know that the access we have
to these fish now, compared to10, 15, 20 years ago, is
absolutely extraordinary.
So, yeah, I started venturing alittle farther offshore Back in

(10:59):
2003 or maybe 2004,.
We had a slug of smaller fishthat moved into Ambrose Channel
Right at the Ambrose Light.
I remember we had like eight ornine fish days and it was all
throwing like small poppers andfly gear at them.
They're all like 30, 40 pounds,really fun fish and that kind
of got me hooked.
And you know, I started lookingfor offshore boats.

(11:22):
I got that contender, the 23T,in 2005.
And then I started likeseriously running offshore trips
and I guess what differentiatedme from other guys that did
that was, you know, I kind ofbrought that like tackle thing
over.
I like to throw poppers, I liketo jig the light stuff and it's
not that other people weren'tdoing that, but it kind of I

(11:42):
don't think anybody is reallyrunning charters doing that.
And I started to bring theseinshore guys and striped bass
guys, these fly guys andbringing them out to do that.
And they were like man, holyshit, this is awesome and the
business kind of blew up fromthere.
You know it allowed me to buildand you know I got let go from
Norcross, which I worked therefor over 10 years and by that

(12:04):
time I built the business upenough to where I could just say
, all right, well, guess what?
I'm not looking for another job, I'm just going to do this.
Yeah, you know that gave me alittle bit of a severance to
test it out for a year and I didand it worked and I made enough
money.
And here I am, man, I'm keepinggoing and I got a bunch of guys
that worked for me and, fuckman, between all three boats

(12:24):
would probably do pretty closeto 200, 250 trips a year to
weather.

George Scocca (12:28):
That's a lot of fishing.

Captain John McMurray (12:29):
So, yeah, it's not all tuna, but you know
a lot of it.
Certainly most of our trips andmost of the money comes from
the tuna stuff.

George Scocca (12:37):
All right, we have many listeners who hear
about you know this inshore tunafishery, right?
When I say inshore, I'm talking20 miles.
You know inside of that and youknow there are many greenies,
people that really have littleexperience at tuna fishing, that

(12:57):
are catching some nice bluefin.
I you know I've seen somevideos of guys catching release
and bluefin inshore, but there'sa lot of people like you know
the first, everybody wants toknow where all the fish, right.
So what?
I'm not asking you for yourspots or and we all know there
is no one spot.
But what are you looking for?

(13:19):
Let's say it's money at first,tuna trips a year, right.
So what are you looking for?
You're looking for a certainwater pattern, weather pattern,
bait pattern.

Captain John McMurray (13:32):
So yeah, I mean, with the elephant stuff
where you're running long,you're looking for pretty
specific water temperature andwater color, but with the
inshore bluefin stuff you're notreally looking for any of that.
I mean, I've had those fish inlike 45 degree dirty green water
before, wow, so that reallydoesn't have anything to do with
the bluefin stuff.
What you're looking for like ifI had to boil it down is life,

(13:55):
you know birds Same old, sameold thing, yeah.
Well, it's not like strippers,where you kind of want to find
them busting on the surface.
You're just looking for anysort of life.
You know like it's those storms?

George Scocca (14:07):
That's off shore.

Captain John McMurray (14:10):
Yeah, so there's storm petrol.
We call them tuna, chicks andslicks.
When we're talking about thatinshore fishery right now,
particularly the one wherethey're kind of keyed in on
those squid right, it's allabout slicks.
Man, you find that smooth waterin the birds and you set up
there and you start working itpretty hard.
A lot of people you know justkind of go to like the broadcast

(14:31):
or one of those well-knownspots where they, you know, they
read it on a report somewhere,but it's really it's not about a
specific spot, it's aboutfinding slicks.
Whales are another really goodindicator.
If you got whales A lot of thefish that we caught on that
inshore fishery this year we'rechasing around dolphin and
throwing poppers at dolphin andthey're right under the dolphin.
Wow, really, you know it's kindof any sort of thing that

(14:55):
indicates you know some, there'slife there, some things being
eaten, you know, and you mightnot always find the tuna there,
but you always want to stop andwork it pretty hard and then
move on.

George Scocca (15:06):
So how deep are these fish?

Captain John McMurray (15:08):
I don't recommend just going to a spot
that you heard somewhere,because it's not really the
right.

George Scocca (15:13):
Yeah, that doesn't work by the time you get
there I mean, we're talkingabout bluefin tuna that can swim
pretty much as fast as theywant.

Captain John McMurray (15:20):
Right, right, and you read something on
the interwebs about a bite at acertain area.
By the time you know you getthere, it's probably pretty
spent.

George Scocca (15:29):
So you're looking for when it's bluefin, you're
just looking for life, which iswhat we always did when we went
offshore, even shark, and youknow you look for life and you
kind of set up there so, likeyou kind of, I mean, I don't see
many people or I don't seephotos or videos of many people

(15:52):
doing what you do.
I'm sure they're out there, but, and I have to tell you, you
take that same picture all thetime, but it doesn't get tired.
I can look at every single oneof those things and even though
I kind of look the same, I'mlike wow, look at that fish,
look at the eyeball, look atthis, Look at that.

Captain John McMurray (16:09):
I'm like so you can't do Beautiful fish.
If you could manage to take apicture before they they flop
around and get all bloody andyou lost them off.
They're extraordinarilybeautiful and, like you know, do
you see the guys with like theeight or nine fish lined up on
the deck all gray?
That's kind of not my thing,you know?

George Scocca (16:29):
No, never was, and it's not mine either.

Captain John McMurray (16:32):
Yeah, people got all been out of shape
because I said that was kind ofgross, but it is man, it's ugly
, you got to call it.

George Scocca (16:39):
As you see it, john, we all feel differently
about different things, but we,ultimately, we all want the same
thing, right?
We all want a good fish, yeah,so all right.
So you're so all right.
So you come up.
Let's say now your, how deepare these bluefin?
Anyway, I'm curious, some guysare coming to get them like 40

(17:02):
feet.

Captain John McMurray (17:03):
Yeah, it's a little different every
year.
Well, we had those giants movein man.
They were in 50, 60 feet ofwater, but that's so.
That's not really my thing.
You can't really.
And there's a certain level offish that you could catch on
spinning gear.
Once they get over like 150pounds, 200 pounds, it's like
it's not fun anymore.
After that it's possible, she'snot fun.

(17:24):
But you know, we did that, thatinshore thing, a few times and
I bought 80 wides and all thatgear for that and I got to admit
it's it's pretty fun.
You know, your first time Iwent I'm letting a bunker out
and 30 feet away from the boatexplosion in the water.
It gets ripped out of my hand.

George Scocca (17:41):
Oh, I love that.

Captain John McMurray (17:43):
I love that.
Oh, it's so cool man and we'relooking at, we're looking at
rock away, you know, while thisis happening.
You know I just don't look attrips.
So my kind of my deal is it'sjust spinning gear, the poppers
and the jigs and stuff.
But those fish were 50, 60 feetof water.
This, this 55 to 65 inch classof fish that we had this year,

(18:06):
that was in kind of like 80, 90foot, you know, but it's still
pretty shallow.

George Scocca (18:10):
Oh yeah, it's not like you know.
I got a second place down inFlorida 80, 90 feet.
You're running 60 miles yeah.

Captain John McMurray (18:17):
Yeah, well, we're running 15 to 20
miles, exactly, exactly.
It's pretty cool yeah.

George Scocca (18:24):
So you're looking for life, and what kind of
plugs do you guys use it?
And I'm curious.
But go ahead, keep going, I'msorry.

Captain John McMurray (18:31):
No, it's fine, so well.
Yeah, this kind of relates tothe plug selection thing too.
When we first got those fish, Iwould love to say I found them.
I did, and a friend of minefound them very early, before
anybody knew about any of this,and called me in and we had a
good two or three days wherethey were just crushing poppers.
You know no other boats aroundyou get on, you get on these

(18:53):
slicks and you wouldn't see inbus or anything.
But you know, occasionallyyou'd see one in the distance,
maybe it was a dolphin, maybe itwas bluefin, you don't know.
But you set up on these slicksand you just blind cast poppers
and they were getting absolutelycrushed.
I mean, it was crazy.
We had good three days of thatbefore the fleet found them.
But the poppers that I'm usingand I can't really tell you if

(19:15):
it's this specific popper thatworks so well or if I've just
developed so much faith in it,but it's those Mad Manus cherry
pops or I guess I don't know.
He's changed the name a bunchof times, but they're Mad Manus
and they're the white and Iguess you call the frostbite.
They're white and they glow andthey have the red spots on them

(19:37):
.
It's nothing crazy.
It doesn't look terribly uniqueto me, but I just caught so
many on that particular plug.
I'm afraid to use anything else.
They make another one.
I guess it's called Ghost, youcould see through it.
We caught quite a few on thosethis year.
I think it came out with them acouple of years ago.
It's really just those twopoppers and for a while we're

(19:59):
catching them on stick baits.
But that seems to like you know, that was when we first started
doing this.
Everybody was like no, theydon't eat poppers, they don't
eat poppers, they don't eatstick baits.
But you know, clearly that wasbullshit or it was a case of odd
thing, I guess, because downhere they absolutely, absolutely
hit poppers.

George Scocca (20:18):
So well, I mean, you would think they would.

Captain John McMurray (20:21):
Yeah, right, I think the deal with
stick baits.
You know the sinking ones inparticular, like the gosh what's
the name of those?
The Rhode Island, anyway.
You fish them underneath thewater so the sheer waters don't
get them.
We don't really have that here,so they absolutely murder
poppers.
And man, there's nothing in theworld like seeing a you know

(20:44):
100 pound class or even 150pound class fish crush a popper.
It's like somebody drops apiano in the water and the whole
boat freaks out.
Everybody starts screaming.

George Scocca (20:54):
No matter how many times you see it, it's
still fucking nuts, you know oh,it's got to be because I can
recall well, you know I don't mytuna fishing in my days, but I
mean I'm like I'm no expert, butI have landed a lot of fish and
you know we didn't fish the wayyou are.
But even you know trollinggreen machine, whatever the heck
we were trolling, you know youwould.

(21:15):
If you're always looking right,if you're a real fisherman,
you're not looking anywhereexcept at those freaking baits
for every second and to seethose fish come up and take the
bait.
Or even I'll go down toAlbacore, you know violent,
there's no other way to describe.
Oh my God, they are freakingcraze and they're 100% solid

(21:38):
muscle, you know.

Captain John McMurray (21:39):
And I mean I had one.
One thing that I want listenersto hear and understand very
clearly is that when you get afish to hit that popper and you
freeze like a deer in headlights, it's going to get out.
Every time you got to set thathook, I tell people rip his face
off three times as hard as youcan.
Really, what I don't often tellpeople and I forget to tell

(22:01):
people it's got to real.
While you do it, some peopletry to set the hook and the line
goes slack.
Anyway, sometimes you're fishingall day for these things and
you get one strike and if youfuck that up and you don't set
the hook and I mean you try to,you try not to be these people
are paying you good money to dois you try not to get annoyed at
people, but sometimes you can'thelp it, you know, especially

(22:23):
when it's your own show.

George Scocca (22:24):
So wait, John, hold on.
Have you turned into a grumpyold captain already at this
young?

Captain John McMurray (22:30):
age?
No, man definitely not, butbecause I get yelled at,
sometimes even till today.

George Scocca (22:36):
I'll go on a charter.
What the hell are you doing?

Captain John McMurray (22:40):
I'm sure you saw that video of this guy
screaming at his clients andthat was totally unacceptable.
But on the other hand you kindof understand where the guy was
coming from, you know?
Oh my.

George Scocca (22:52):
God, I have to laugh at that.

Captain John McMurray (22:53):
Yeah, Anyway some people you get on
the boat.
They're really good fishermen.
No, they're doing other ones.
You know, you tell them amillion times not to do
something and they do it.
So you tell them to dosomething, they don't do it.
It's hard not to get angry orannoyed, but anyway, when I do
that and I end up screaming atsomebody, I always apologize
profusely.

George Scocca (23:12):
Yeah, but I got to tell you as the guy yeah well
, you know what, john, as theguy who's been screamed at, ok,
I can tell you, don't get overit.
It's very hard when they getover it.
The time they get over it iswhen they get another fish on.
Then they forgot about all ofthat crap.
And you know what?
I've been one of the bestcaptains.
I mean, I used to fish on aparty boat for Bluefin and it

(23:33):
was crazy back in those days andI fished on the Klondike with
Pete Pearson and he was a maniac.
Right, he'd be up on that flybut he'd be running around a
boat screaming at every singleangler.
I brought my own tackle right.
I brought a 80 pound Y but Ionly had 50 pound test.

(23:56):
So somehow he happens to lookat it.
What the hell is this?
I go.
Well, it's a 80 Y and I got 50pound test.
Back in those days I wassnicking give the fish a chance.
I had no clue that I'd behooking up on these 300 pound,
freaking big eyes and I couldn'teven use my own stuff.

(24:17):
But I get it because when Iswitched his tackle I was
catching him.
I was managing to land them.
So nothing wrong with beatingan old salt, kind of comes with
the game.
So, john, again, when I see yourphotos, I mean I'm not the

(24:37):
biggest Facebooker kind of guy,but I go on there and I'll see
your photos and I'll see whatyou become and how you stayed
with the fishery and how yourespect the fishery.
A lot of people may think yourespect it a little bit too much

(24:57):
.
I don't, but I know whereyou're coming from, I know
you're better than most people.
I'll just put it to you thereoutside.
I mean I know you for thelongest time so I got to ask you
.
So we're talking to my uptunaand we kind of got past that a
little bit.
You know what?
Talk to me a little bit aboutthe yellow pin.

(25:18):
How deep are you going forthose?

Captain John McMurray (25:23):
Sometimes it's 125, 130 feet.
Most of the time it's in that240 foot range.
We had them in between thechannels.
I don't know, gosh, that'strying to figure out what time
of the year it was.
It was this year.
We had them right at the end ofthe channels and barely 100
feet of water.
But that's anomalous, itdoesn't usually happen.

(25:44):
But yeah, it's the same kind ofdeal.
You're looking for life Rightnow.
It's kind of specific to thesquid trawlers.
If you find squid trawlersyou're always behind there.
I mean right now, like lateSeptember into October, is
probably the best the elephantfishing gets.
It's just a matter of gettingweather windows to get to them.

(26:04):
But you have all these squidtrawlers and they're not
terribly hard to find.
You just look at AIS andsometimes they're pretty far,
sometimes you're close but youget right up on them and you
always get on your way with acouple of eyeballs full of
peanut bunker and you get tofind them and you start throwing
them and they come up and youthrow a beer can at them and
they'll eat it.
They get fired up like that.

George Scocca (26:26):
You drop it Like a bluefish, huh.

Captain John McMurray (26:28):
Yeah, yeah, and you know that's going
back to like respecting thefishery.
That's when you could prettymuch clean up.
But I kind of put a cap onseven fish, which again I think
is a lot.
When you're talking about 50 to80 pound fish, it's a lot of me
.
It's a lot and you know,technically they're allowed to
keep three per person.

(26:49):
You know you've got four guyswho talk about 12 fish but you
know what the hell happens toall that fish you got to, you
got to question and the guysthat want to kill all these fish
, it's like they show up withone 65 quart yeti.
You know it's like what theafter you get all the fish, or
try to, I try to shut it down.
Unless somebody can clearlyarticulate you know what they're

(27:10):
going to do with.
Right, I shut it down at sevenfish and even at seven fish, I
end up having to keep a lot andgive them away to my neighbors
or you know like.
Well, you can always call me.

George Scocca (27:21):
I'll try.
I'll try wherever I have to,because I'm buying online half
the time.

Captain John McMurray (27:28):
The whole term limiting out.
It always kind of rub me thewrong way.
Fishing isn't about limitingout and sometimes you know you
go out there and you grind itout all day and you get one fish
out.
But that one fish that's suchan extraordinary experience to
some people that you know itends up being a great trip and
everybody is stoked and I reallyit really rubs me the wrong way
when you get back to the dockand everybody's like how many

(27:50):
did you get?
How many did you get?
Like it's a fucking competition.
You know it's not.
Yeah, you guys to be happy, youknow, and I'm happy with a
handful of fish.
You know, even oneextraordinary fish, that's a
great trip.

George Scocca (28:03):
Yeah, you know, I'm not happy as well.

Captain John McMurray (28:05):
I don't catch shit.
I'm not going to lie to youabout that.

George Scocca (28:07):
Hey look, there's no guarantee, right, it's
fishing and if you're notcatching there aren't.
there aren't a heck of a lot ofpeople there that are catching.
But you know I can relate towhat you said regarding just
that one fish, because you knowI did a lot of flu fishing out
at cholera in that whole areathis year and it was just red

(28:32):
hot.
And then one day we went outand there was.
It was just horrible.
We couldn't even come comeacross a keeper, but there was
one keeper and it was pushingeight pounds and that carried us
for the day.
You know that one fish.

Captain John McMurray (28:47):
Even though we didn't get any other
keepers we kind of didn't care,because we had that one fish.

George Scocca (28:52):
So yeah, that's an extraordinary fish.

Captain John McMurray (28:55):
So a couple years ago, the elephant
we had a lull in the elephantbite and it was a Saturday and
it was flat calm.
Everybody was out and I had thein reach.
So I got a pretty wide networkof guys I communicate with and
you know, I had guys at Picardie, I had guys at Coimbra, I had
guys on the West wall, I hadguys on the East wall.

(29:16):
Nobody was doing shit anywhereand we found some fish at the
Virginia which, as you know, ispretty close, compared you know
where all these guys are running.
We had dolphin there, we haddolphin life and birds and we
stuck on those dolphin all daybecause I knew, you know,
there's nowhere else to go.
I'm not going to go burn fuelto not catch fish somewhere else
.
We chased them around all dayand we had one fish that was

(29:37):
probably, you know, a hair over100 pounds, you know 62, 63
inches.
We had one fish come up infront of a dolphin school and
absolutely just destroy a popperand everybody went fucking nuts
and we landed this thing andeverybody got a photo with it
and we got back to the dock.
That seems like it was.
It was definitely the only fish.

(29:57):
It was caught in my network.
But the point is like it's not.
It wasn't about like how manywe killed, it was about that one
fish and that made the day likeawesome.
I still talk about it.

George Scocca (30:09):
Yeah, yeah, look again I've seen that over and
over where one time you're goingto have that one fish that can
carry today and you're happywith that fish, you know.
So I look, let's.
So we discuss tuna.
I'm going to say, from what Ican see, you're like this seems

(30:31):
to be your space and I knowyou're really good at it and
folks, if you want to get intouch with John, we'll set that
up at the end of the podcast.
But I want to discuss somethingelse.
I'm hoping that you may want totalk about it and it's the
current situation in Stripe Bass.
I mean, you're in the industry,right, and I'm just going to

(30:53):
give you my take real quick.
You know there's got aboutgoing around about shutting this
fishery down.
There were people I spoke with.
Actually, we've been talkingabout this for three years.
We kind of all saw this coming.
I believe it's all based onpoor data and I don't blame any

(31:13):
manager.
You know they get data and thenthey have to respond.
But I'm curious what yourthoughts were the way asmfc
handled the 28 to 31 inch fish.
I'm going to tell you I Ioppose it in for a number of
reasons, in that, if it's anemergency was such an emergency

(31:37):
and they just they gave Chataboats no heads up and they just
kind of shut it down.
And why are all the commercialsallowed to bigger fish If it
was an emergency?
And I'm not going aftercommercials, I'm not making this
a recreational commercial thing.

Captain John McMurray (31:54):
I'm just saying so, yeah, no, I hear
where you're coming from andit's kind of difficult for me to
tiptoe around the subjectwithout burning bridges on one
side or the other.
Got to be honest.
Honestly, dude, I don't reallygive a shit.
So let me, let me just behonest, okay.
Yeah, I've got an extraordinaryfishery in the New York bite,

(32:16):
in the lower New York Harborarea in particular.
It's the last two years thereare more fish around I seen in
20 years, and folks will willsay that that's just specific to
New York.
Well, you know, we're kind ofat the epicenter in the spring,
in the fall and, yeah, maybe alot of those fish are Hudson
fish.
But when you start to look upthe coast it's hard to not

(32:39):
acknowledge that it's not gottenbetter in the last several
years up and down the coast,with the very blatant exception
of the Chesapeake day, that's.
That seems to have completelyshit the bed, and why?
You know, the folks argue thatit's climate change.
I overfishing contributing.
But you know, I think, I thinkthere's some sort of northward

(33:02):
movement of the striped back.
Absolutely, and they're going tofollow the bait I don't have a
lot of science to to prove that,but it just, it's intuitive.
Now, you know, folks will arguethat that the Chesapeake
produces 68% of the coastalstock and you could just look at
a chart and understand why it'shuge.
And then those fish go back tothe natal rivers, and that's to

(33:24):
some extent true.
But, but there's also fish thatgo back to the Hudson and the
Delaware and you know, while thedata doesn't really show it,
those, those fisheries seem tobe more prolific than they were.
And then you work your way upthe coast all the way up to the
Canabac, and certainly theCanabac seems to be producing
more fish.
You go up to the freakingMerrimachie in Canada and that's

(33:47):
, there's a huge spawningpopulation there now.
So so something is happening, Ithink, and in the data, let's
let's be clear about the datahere we're being this target,
this fishing or this spawningstock biomass target that we're
trying to reach, is kind of aside effect of the data
recalibration, which was what2017, 2018.

(34:10):
And we're being asked, and,without getting into too much
detail about that, it showedthat the fishing effort was a
lot higher than they thought andthat so the spawning stock
biomass must be higher than theythought.
So they ended up setting that,that biomass goal, at a pretty
damn high level and some wouldargue almost unattainable,

(34:31):
particularly given the poorrecruitment that's happened in
the Chesapeake.
I mean, when you look at thetime series, we've only achieved
it in four years out of a 40year time series.
You know, and it's possible toachieve, and if we have good
recruitment which we kind ofdon't right now, but it's going
to be really hard to achievethat, and even with that tiny

(34:55):
slot limit that we have rightnow, it's showing that we're not
going to achieve it by thedeadline, which is 2029.
Now, you know, with all that inmind, I do you know, kind of on
and off the record, I guess Ithink you know maybe we're
overreaching with that.
I don't.
I think these people that talkabout a moratorium are fucking

(35:18):
batshit crazy.
You know, you can't.
Just having seen the amount offish, I just can't imagine
shutting it down.
It just doesn't seem warrantedto me.
And, george, I'm not, I'm not akill all guy, I've been a
conservation guy since since youknow me.
But I also think you have to bereasonable in your management.

George Scocca (35:41):
You have to have some access, or else you, or
else you lose people, the peoplethat advocate for it, you know,
because that's a firm believerin exactly what you said by
cutting out or restrictingwrecks from this fishery will
only hurt the fishery.

Captain John McMurray (36:00):
I really believe because, say the
stewards we should be very clearabout one thing here, and
that's that you know the catchand release guys and you know,
to be honest, most of my clientsdon't want to keep strikers.
You know, some do.
I'm not going to argue that.

George Scocca (36:15):
Well, they like to eat them.

Captain John McMurray (36:17):
Yeah, you got it Right, but the discard
mortality accounts for 50% ofthe total mortality.
So these guys who think they'reinnocent by releasing every
fish are not.
And guess what?
When they shut this fisherydown, if they shut it down, if
they do what's called no targetclosures, guess what that means?
It's illegal for you to eventarget them.

(36:37):
So when you go around talkingabout shutting it down in a
moratorium, guess what thatmeans.
You too, buddy.
So you know I'm a littleconcerned about how we're going
to get to this biomass target in2029 without shutting it down.

George Scocca (36:52):
Well, john, let me ask you now isn't, isn't it
kind of like an arbitrary number, that like a number that was
picked, that's like it's doesn'thave to happen by then?

Captain John McMurray (37:04):
Yes, I'm not going to argue that it's not
arbitrary, but it's 10 yearsfrom the time when the stock was
declared over fish.
We have a stock assessment thatsays the stock is technically
below the spawning stock,spawning stock biomass threshold
, it's over fish.
And then the commissionapproves it and that sets the
clock at 10 years.
Now, yeah, it's arbitrary, butif you don't have some sort of

(37:26):
timeline, you know, having saton both the commission and the
council, they will.
They will just put it off andput it off and never achieve it.
So I do understand that 10 yeartimeline, but what I question
really is whether or not we'vemanaged to set this biomass
target too high.
Right and just given, givenwhat I've seen on the water and

(37:47):
what folks see all the way up toMaine.
You know there's there's a lotof fish around and how the hell
are we going to keep fishingmortality at a low level when
there's all these fish around?
It's like that sort ofopportunity drives participation
.
It's more guys are going tofish and there's more fish
around.
So it's it's a fucking bigproblem and it needs to be
figured out before weunnecessarily shut this down.

George Scocca (38:10):
Well, you know, we need that, we need people to
be part of the process, which wedon't have really anymore, you
know, not as many.
It's like kind of down to justlisten, enjoy.

Captain John McMurray (38:24):
I did that shit for for too long, for
15 years.
Me too, and it sucks.
It's like you're banging yourhead against the wall and I'm
not going to say your voicedoesn't matter, you don't
achieve things and certainly youcan do more when you sit behind
the table.
But you know, when you got abusiness to run and kids to
raise and everybody's going tofucking hate you.

(38:46):
Whatever decision you make, oneside's going to hate you and,
believe me, they're very vocalabout it on social media etc.
And they don't.
They don't pull any puncheseither, man.

George Scocca (38:55):
Yeah, I know you were fine for a while.

Captain John McMurray (38:57):
Yeah, so it's hard to find good people to
take on that role and representfishermen and you.
Just it's really difficult tofind the right person.
I understand why, yeah no, I dotoo.

George Scocca (39:09):
Hey, what do you think I didn't know?
You know what I've been through.
So, but it's to me it's justpart of the process.
Most people don't reallyunderstand what's happening.
But there's striped bassfishery.
I've always been an advocate,you know.
I mean I'm a conservation mind,the guy, but at the same time I

(39:30):
want fairness amongst bothsides and we didn't see that in
this case.
They came out, it's anemergency.
They gave you guys when I sayyou guys, I'm going to say to
Charterbone industry like zerotime for you to tell your
clients sorry guys, they justreduced the slot in half.

Captain John McMurray (39:51):
People really got screwed on that and
it's not me particularly,because I don't get a lot of
guys that I mean it'll probablyaffect me a little bit, but not
much, but I couldn't imaginesome of my colleagues are really
gonna.
You know, people fish.
It's different parts of theindustry.
People fish with certain guysis they want to take fish home

(40:12):
and it's going to be pretty damnhard to find fish within that
slot.

George Scocca (40:15):
Well, the more we fish it, the less there are.
It doesn't to me, it doesn'tmake any sense at whatsoever.
And why are we protecting allthese monster fish, the big fish
that are going to die in acouple years?
And we're freaking, killingevery?
Well, we're not killingeverything, we're not killing
many.
And let me ask you do you buythat 9%?

Captain John McMurray (40:36):
I don't buy 9%, release mortality, I
just don't buy it, let me let megive you my opinion, which is
just an opinion, but you knowit's based on the last 20 years
of fishing for these things.
I do think.
I do think probably one in 10,one in 11 fish I release die

(40:57):
like they get gill hooked or guthooked, or it does seem
reasonable to me and it's a lotlower than it is in other
fisheries.
I think bluefish is 10% or 12%or something like that, but it's
just the sheer number of peopletargeting them and releasing
them that makes the overalldiscard mortality so high.

(41:19):
Because when you extrapolatethat 9% across all the guys
fishing for them, then it'sgoing to be significant.

George Scocca (41:25):
Now I know, but I've seen so many studies when I
say so many, like half a dozenthat and one of them was done
here in New York by JohnPellegrino.
He used to run a boat on NorthShore and DEC or ASMFC this year
ago probably when you first gotin here they commissioned him

(41:46):
to do a catch and release, tohelp them with a catch and
release study, and they set up apen somewhere in Huntington Bay
.
They caught a bunch of fish,they threw them in there and
they had a 2% mortality rate.
Every single one of those fishwas caught on a hook and line.

(42:07):
So you know, like they kind ofdon't look to me but they don't
look at all the data, I can seeyou agreeing with it because you
know you got gut hooked fishand people are pulling them.

Captain John McMurray (42:21):
There's been a lot of work at UMass I
think maybe it's in my team, butthey're doing some work on
discard mortality and, you know,nothing has been peer reviewed
yet.
From what I understand, theirnumbers are pretty close to what
we're currently using.
And again just back toanecdotal shit, in my experience
it's like all right, well, yougot the fly guys who are holier

(42:44):
than now and never kill any fishand say they don't got a good
catch.

George Scocca (42:49):
They're cooking.

Captain John McMurray (42:50):
That's not true, because you're
stripping that fly through andthere's that like in between,
when you're pulling you're goingto grab the line.
They'll eat that fly andthey'll get it right in their
gill every time.
Right, I also, when you'refishing plugs and you know, I
went through a phase where I usesingle hooks and I didn't want
to kill all these fish, but youknow you get guys that don't

(43:12):
fish well and you just miss aton of fish.
Yeah, you can't tell me thatyou're going to, even if you
legislate it, that people areonly going to use single hooks
and there's no way to enforce it.
So I do think I mean I'm notgoing to sit here in bullshit
and tell you that the discardmortality isn't significant.
It is.
But I also think it's kind oflike a red herring for managers

(43:34):
Like you can't really addressdiscard mortality.
I mean you could try to dothings like require circle hooks
for bait or J hooks for plugs,but you know, and most people
are going to be compliant, butthat's really not going to make
much of a difference.
You can't even quantify it froma science perspective.
You can't quantify that savings.

(43:55):
It's always going to exist inthe fishery and you can't
address it, in my opinion, isthat you address the things that
you can't you address.
You know the commercial side.
They're killing every fish thatthey catch and it's a drop in
the bucket compared to therecreational side.
My point is you manage targeteddeaths.
You manage killing fish becausethat's the only thing that you

(44:18):
really can manage.
I think all this bullshit withtrying to focus on discards
isn't going to help out at all.
What it is going to do is it'sgoing to put me out of business
If they close down.
You know, april for stripedbass for me, or May.

George Scocca (44:32):
Oh look, John, I'm saying for years, just so
you know, for years that thiswas coming and they were coming
out and they were going tospecifically go after you guys
because those fish are headed tothe Hudson or headed out of the
Hudson and I mean I totallypredict.

(44:53):
I'm going to give you anotherprediction.
I'm going to give it one year,maybe two, where you will not be
able to pull a striped bass outof the water unless it's legal
size.
These people, in no look, it'sin Florida, you can't take a
snowsuit out of the water.

Captain John McMurray (45:11):
I could live with that.
I could live with that, george.
I wouldn't be ideal, becausepeople want photos.
You know if you're catching,release fishing?
People want their Instagram andFacebook pictures, right, right
.
They don't say that they may ormay not fish with me.
But you know I could probablysurvive that.
What I couldn't survive is notargeting.
Because if they tell me I can'ttarget striped bass in April,

(45:32):
may because they're going up toHudson, then you know I can't.
First of all, most people arenot going to be compliant.
You get bored.
They're just going to saythey're fishing for bluefish.
But guy like me can't do that.

George Scocca (45:43):
I can't do that and get away with it.

Captain John McMurray (45:45):
You know those party of guys that have a
fuel day on me if I wasmarketing bluefish trips in
April.
There's no fucking bluefisharound in April, so it's really
going to hurt if it happens and,honestly, everybody keeps
telling me, god, they're notgoing to do that, they're not
going to do that.
Well, I don't see how they'regoing to avoid it.
It's 50% of the mortality andthere are people on the

(46:05):
commission that really want tosee that happen.
They want to see, you know, thewhole year, the now catch
release guys much more includedget punished for this, and
they're not wrong because we'repart of the problem.

George Scocca (46:17):
Yeah, but no, they are.
I'm sorry, they are wrong,because let me tell you
something If you take it allaway from us and we don't care
about that fishery, that fisheryis going to end up 100% in the
hands of the commercialfishermen and we don't want that
happening, right?
So you know?
Let me ask you this question soin fisheries management they

(46:44):
manage by pounds, right?
We don't really care aboutpounds, we care about the
numbers of fish, whereascommercial fishery cares about
pounds.
So are we a lot of X amount ofpounds a year?
I mean, I don't really get howthey're managing our piece of it

(47:08):
.
And you know, like I'veactually seen states that have,
like they have, regs in poundsfor commercials and in inches
for recreation.

Captain John McMurray (47:21):
I'm not sure how that works, and once
you get into the science side ofthings it's kind of like above
my pay grade.
I was never a math guy, yeah,but it does seem kind of silly.
And I know there's folks thathave been asking for that sort
of poundage versus fish methodto be changed.
But I don't know enough aboutit to say something All right.

George Scocca (47:41):
So here's another question.
So again, you probably don'tknow, but I want your take on it
.
So they force, they tell us howgreat circle hooks are right,
and I agree, I'm not disagreeing.
And so they implement circlehooks over the last.
What is this third, fourth year?

(48:01):
And why are we still at 9% bycatch mortality?
Should that be reduced?

Captain John McMurray (48:10):
I touched on this.
I touched on this earlier.
There's no way to quantify thebenefit of gear changes.
There has to be a scientificmethod that allows you to say
we've saved x% on using thisgear type.
And one doesn't exist.

(48:30):
So we could put all these geartype regulations in the books
that we want.
It will not help that 9% numberone bit.
Is it the right thing to do?
Do you want to reduce discards,whether they show up on paper
or not?
Yeah, but let me just saysomething about that circle hook
requirement.
There are no fewer peoplesnagging and dropping now than

(48:54):
they were before.
That requirement, oh yeah.
No look it's unenforceable, sothey're not going to comply, and
if they do get boarded you justsay you're targeting bluefish
or something.
So it's kind of silly.

George Scocca (49:08):
Yeah, look, I always said fisheries
regulations and rules arevoluntary.
You know, when a fisherman goesout, he's a poacher that
doesn't give a shit aboutregulations or sizes, or he's
the kind of guy that's you know,or gal that's going to stick by

(49:30):
the regulations.

Captain John McMurray (49:32):
So the managers would argue that most
people are going to be compliantby nature, and I agree with
that, with something like sizeand bag limits.
But when you talk aboutsomething that most people view
as ridiculous, like no targetclosures or even gear
restrictions, they just won'tcomply, particularly if there's

(49:54):
no repercussions for them notcomplying.
So folks, you know, like MikeLuisi and the Maryland
contingent, will argue yes, wecan implement these no target
closures where you can't even,you know, be out there targeting
for stri bass and and yes, theywill work, but they're just,
there's just no way in my mindthat they would have any

(50:14):
discernible effect on the stribass population.
You just, you just have peoplecontinuing, people are not going
to stop fishing, and she's notgoing to happen.

George Scocca (50:25):
Well, they could ruin it for us, you know, they
could ruin it for me they justdid.

Captain John McMurray (50:31):
The average Joe is it's not going to
reduce fishing mortality at all, so yeah, but it's going to
reduce his participation.
I've made that argument, george, around the table at the
commission and, and you know,people just flat out disagree.
They're like you're wrong.
Data shows that there's Xamount of compliance, but I
think it's bullshit.

George Scocca (50:52):
Yeah, I look.
I think we all know that whereyou're talking about fishing
specifically, there are morefreaking striped bass in there
than there have ever been.
Ever.
And whether that be because ofthe water's warming, more fish
moving out of the bay, I don'tknow why fish would stay in the

(51:13):
chest peak when there's justenough time for them to eat, I
mean nothing.
So so that's why they're kindof moving.
So they come here where you knowwe pass thanks to you, you were
part of it.
We passed that bunker buildback in the days and we are the
envy of the coast and we haveall this life and all these bass

(51:35):
coming in here and we rebuiltthis.
And now they're telling they Imean, they haven't yet, but
there's a good chance they'regoing to tell you you can't
target those fish.
Well, at the same time, you'reprobably aware they're doing PCB
studies to open that section upto the commercial fishery.

(51:55):
So they're going to shut us outand at the same time say, okay,
the PCBs are low enough, let'slet these guys fish commercially
in that area.
And again, I don't want them tomake this recreation or
commercial.
What I'm trying to point out isthat the basis for this whole

(52:18):
idea is wrong.
We have the fish.
The fish are here.
We have more fish than we everhad.
They have some spots where youknow you hear, oh, there aren't
that many, but there aren't thatmany in the 28 to 31 inch size
because we're targeting them all.
Just that makes sense to me.
We're going to wipe out a wholeyear class.
I don't understand that for thelife of me.

Captain John McMurray (52:42):
But anyway, you know the bottom, so
it's.
So a couple of things.
Yeah, I mean it's it's hard tounderstand that small slot and
how it won't just whack like aone solid year class.
But those you know, it's notreally about targeting specific
year classes or reducingmortality on specific year

(53:04):
classes, even though we tried todo that with the last amendment
, amendment seven, where welooked at different scenarios
that would hopefully protectthose 2015s the Chesapeake Bay
2015s, which is a really strongyear class None of them showed
any sort of benefit to theoverall fishery in achieving

(53:26):
that spawning stock biomasstarget by 2029, because they
just shifted effort to otheryear classes.
So that's where that came from.
That was the.
That emergency regulation was away to reduce fishing mortality
in a quick, expedient manner.
Now the commercial thing.
When you talk to EmersonHasbrook, who was the other

(53:50):
commissioner and he's one of theguys, one of the leads for that
study and he's got a goodargument, you know, okay, well,
yes, we're looking at allowingour fishermen to maybe kill more
Hudson fish so they could sellthem, but it's the commercial

(54:11):
guys that have been responsiblefor the overfishing, not the
commercial guys.
The commercial guys are managedon a flat quota and when they
can't kill any more fish.
We're size and bag limits.
So once the effort increases,which is usually the result of
abundance, then you know ourfishing mortality goes through
the roof.

(54:31):
So we should be the ones thathave to shoulder the burden, not
the commercial guys.
And you know it doesn't seemfair, but it also doesn't seem
unfair when you look at it fromEmerson's perspective.

George Scocca (54:42):
No, no, first of all, I'm not saying that.
But don't shut us down and openthem up at the same time,
Because it's pretty obviousyou're shutting us down to open
them up, you know.
And another point, john, you gotto think about is these
regulations didn't only theydon't put something like this

(55:02):
into effect in an emergency justto reduce I don't know bycatch,
take whatever they do it toreduce effort, and that's the
thing that you know.
As an advocate for sportfishermen, it's one thing I
cannot stand when they pull that.

(55:22):
And the bottom line is I knowfor a fact, I've asked so many
anglers that like to take a fishhome.
They're not bass fishermen,they're just not.
I mean, what is that?
Maybe, even if it's just 10%,it is.
You know people like to take abass home to eat.
So you know they're not goingto do it with this lottery slot.

(55:45):
I mean, you know these partyboats.
You know as well as I do theywould.
They would freaking pack inthem for striped bass not
happening now.

Captain John McMurray (55:54):
So I was talking to oh God, what's his
name?
The guy from Capture Pride.

George Scocca (55:59):
Oh, okay, yeah, I can.

Captain John McMurray (56:01):
I can get on that team.
Yeah, ken Haggins, oh, kenny,good guy, really good guy.
So I'm talking to him the otherday and, and he's, you know,
he's very honest, he's like Iknow he does agree with me on
this stuff, which I actuallydon't disagree with him.
A lot of stuff he says.
You know, this is going to killme.
I'm not going to get the guys,but I, you know, when I did talk

(56:22):
to him a few days later he wastelling me that he was booking
up pretty good for those bassshows.
My point is that you know, aslong as there's the opportunity
to kill one, as long as there'sthe chance, I think those people
are still going to go.
But once you, once you starttelling people you can't target
them, then you're fucked.
Man.
Oh, I told him that's going tobe the end, that's going to be
the end of shit.
So that's, that's really what'sgot me real, real worried and

(56:46):
and and again, like a lot of theadvocates for striped bass
conservation keep telling methat's not going to happen.
But you know, I sat around thetable and I'd listened to people
at the hospitality suites talkabout it.
I mean, hopefully the right itdoesn't happen, but it seems
likely to me that it can andwill happen.
Well, at the very least, we'regoing to lose some seasons,

(57:07):
we're going to lose part of theseason.
I think that's, that'sinevitable at the next meeting.

George Scocca (57:11):
And it's going to be the spring season, they're
going to protect those spawners.

Captain John McMurray (57:17):
And the early spring and the late fall.
That's when it peaks for us,and those are the most likely
months to get whacked.

George Scocca (57:24):
That'd be horrible.
I mean that would be a disaster.
That would be.
Like you know, when I startedin the Northeast in 89, you know
you couldn't catch a stripedbass.
And here we are now where thereare more fish than I have ever
heard of or seen.
There are people right now thatthey can't catch a fish under

(57:47):
like 30 pounds.
Imagine you used to look forthe big fish and how you can't
catch anything within that slot.
And you know it's interesting,george.

Captain John McMurray (57:58):
There's.
You remember when you wanted toget a 50, I'm thinking about
Willie Young's gut, oh, I stillwant a 50.
Well, listen to get his 50, hespent a week every year in Block
Island in like mid October,late October, and he was fished
the beach all night to get that50.
He did it for years.
I was probably close to adecade and he finally got his 50

(58:21):
.
Now any jackass with a sea raycould go out, you know, at 10
o'clock and snag a bunker andget a 50.
It's totally changed thefishery as I've seen more 50s
and 60s in the last three yearsand I've seen in my entire life.
Yeah, I mean, it's the size ofthese fish is like.
I've never seen anything like it.
It's not just fish, it's, it'sslot fish.

(58:43):
It's.
It's small fish and there is.
There does seem to be a dearthof schoolies, but otherwise
there's just a way.
Like I said, it's the best fishand I've had in 20 years.
Yeah well, they're sayingthey're on.

George Scocca (58:55):
I think what's happened is like you said, look,
with everything else, I did awhole series on on a podcast on
this.
I mean, things are changing.
The waters are.
I'm not just saying, yeah, thewaters are warming, but the
climate is warming andeverything is changing, fisher
moving out of areas, new fishare moving in.

(59:15):
I mean there's literally atargeted tarpon fishery in
Massachusetts this year.
I'm like what?
People catching freaking tarponup there.
So you know, we're in themiddle of this change, but one
thing is not going to change,and that is that the Hudson
River, I believe, has developedinto the greatest sporting

(59:38):
ground for striped bass on EastCoast, because there's no
commercial take there's nonetting, there's no shit in
there.

Captain John McMurray (59:44):
So anecdotally, it does seem, that
does seem to be the case and andit you know that entire spring
rare in fishery there's got tobe Hudson fish, right.
How could they not be Hudson?
They are but right.
And that fishery seems to begetting better and better every
year.
Absolutely the question thatfishery is under is
extraordinary, but it doesn'tseem to be knocking it down at
all, which is which isinteresting.

(01:00:05):
But you look at the, at thejuvenile abundance indices in
the Hudson River, and they'renot.
They're not a whole lot.
If you draw a line through them, it does appear to be a huge
draw line through them.
It does appear to be on theupswing, but it's, it's not

(01:00:25):
extraordinary Over the over theentire time series, and you
would think that the Hudson isproducing more of the fish, but
it's, it's not really Well, andnow it goes back to.

George Scocca (01:00:36):
you have a lot more faith.
You have a lot more faith inthe numbers than I do, like I
kind of just look at what'shappening and I don't look at
their numbers, and I'm like youknow this fishery is the
greatest fishery ever.

Captain John McMurray (01:00:50):
Yeah, and I think that's how most people
think about things.
But if you start to just, youknow, rely on what people say
and what people experience andyou have no data, then it kind
of allows people to representtheir own interests.
You know, like the data is.
There's no subjectivity, it'sit's the data, and that's kind

(01:01:14):
of like what you in the end andwhen you're making management,
so that's what you got to relyon.
Otherwise it's chaos.

George Scocca (01:01:21):
Now I get that.
But there's just times whereyou look and you see what's
happening.
And then you look at the dataand you're like I don't even in
my mind the Hudson River.
They could keep everything theway it is.
Keep, keep the commercials out,don't be talking with Gilnets,

(01:01:41):
they'll destroy that fish.
It's bad enough with the shadfishermen in there with their
nets, but if you can continue tokeep it the way it is, that
fishery is going to thrive andthrive and thrive.
We have more bait than anyone.
So you know, look, I kind of Iwhen I say I feel bad for the

(01:02:02):
charter industry right now thatthat built up this beautiful
following of striped bassfishermen.
They're teaching etiquette.
My other point is we go on witha 9% catch and release number.
That hasn't changed.
John, I want you to think aboutthis.
That hasn't changed for like 20years.
So are you telling me in thelast 20 years we haven't changed

(01:02:27):
our etiquette, we haven't donemore as anglers to save more
fish?

Captain John McMurray (01:02:32):
You're not going to give us anything, I
mean we're doing more to savethose fish.
People are definitely moreconscious of how they handle and
release fish.
Now, that's an interestingpoint that you thought of.
We're not Don't expect to getrewarded for that.

George Scocca (01:02:48):
No, I know that that's my point, because they
can't find data on it, and mycomplaint I always have I might
have said it before, I'll say itagain is fisheries management
lacks common sense.
They need absolutely somecommon sense in there to say you

(01:03:09):
know what?

Captain John McMurray (01:03:10):
What are we doing?
So the problem with that andI'll just give you a quick
example we sat there at thetable for four fucking hours and
talked about whether or not atube and worm was legal under
the new regulations.
That's how fucking stupid thatsort of thing is.
Like common sense, you know.

(01:03:31):
Let the guys use it.
It's not bait, it's you justtipping them.

George Scocca (01:03:34):
Exactly.
You've never got hooked to fishthat way, ever.
You can't.
It's not talking about it.

Captain John McMurray (01:03:41):
Right, but the problem is you can't
make those sort of common sensedecisions without data to
support them, because if you do,one of the NGOs will come right
in and sue the shit out of you,not necessarily at the
commission, but at the council.

George Scocca (01:03:58):
Right, right, right.

Captain John McMurray (01:03:59):
So I do understand, but yeah, I mean
that conversation in particularwas so frustrating and I think I
made a comment on the recordabout how ridiculous it was, but
it didn't slow it down at all.
You know, these guys who sitthere and talk in circles for
hours, it's terrible.
Drown me nuts, yeah.

George Scocca (01:04:18):
Well, I tell you, look, I'm glad that we got to
talk and it sounds to me notthat you have come around.
I think you've known thesethings all the time and you've
been trying to affect it.

Captain John McMurray (01:04:38):
but now, the fishery is different now.
Like back when we startedfocusing on conserving Strybast,
the fishery was starting toshit the bed and we all saw it
on the water and the data hadn'tmanifested.
Now we have a tremendousincrease.
So, you know, I still considermyself a conservationist and you

(01:05:00):
know, if I don't have thisresource to utilize, it's not
only do I go out of business butI lose my fucking mind, like
I'm addicted to this now.
But if you inch over into oneside of the argument at all, if
you try to take a middle ground,you try to explain to people
what you see on the water andhow maybe this flat limit is

(01:05:24):
gratuitous or an overreach, andcertainly shutting the fishery
down is not necessary.
And you know it might be goodfor the bass but it's not good
for the people who you knowstand up for bass and always
have, and that kind of puts youin the crosshairs for some

(01:05:46):
people and I think it's areflection of just the political
climate in general.
You are everything is sopolarized you either on the left
or on the right and you can'tbe in the middle, or else you
know you're a trader to someone.
Well, I think that's kind ofthe way people are.
Some people might be perceivingme right now as like I thought
he was the conservation guy.

(01:06:07):
Well, yeah, I am, but there's afucking shit ton of fish around
right now.
Do we really need to be talkingabout a closure?
I mean, it's allcounterintuitive and anyway.
I just wanted to explain mythinking and my views on things
now, and they're quite a bitdifferent than they were half a
dozen years ago, and that'sbecause fishery is quite a bit
different.

George Scocca (01:06:26):
Well, that's what I was going to say.
I don't think your views aredifferent.
The fishery is different andyou know what you're speaking,
you're looking at it and you'reseeing it.
I'm glad you have, I mean, Iknow you always have and as far
as you being a conservationist,you don't need to explain that
to anybody because you arePeople know that I mean most.

(01:06:48):
I'm not going to say most, butmany charter captains are
conservationists.
Most want to keep that fisheryalive so they can continue to
work.
And without you folks, you can'tintroduce people to fishing.
So, in my mind, keeping youguys going is very important to
us, very.
And to just shut you down onwhat we would call bad data at a

(01:07:16):
time when there's more fish,all because they don't want you
to catch fish, they're making itso hard for us to catch fish
that you know, look, you had nochoice but to look at it both
ways and I respect you for that.
I always did.
We haven't always agreed onthings, but you and I, we don't
like you probably more in favorof a license than me.

(01:07:37):
Maybe you are, maybe you're not, but that's OK, you know.
So I don't care what side ofthe aisle you're on left or
right, I care about fishingparticipation.
It's all about getting newpeople and fishing.
And in New York it's not really.
Is New York we do.

(01:07:58):
We get in the way of so manydifferent fisheries and once
things start going there'salways cutbacks.
And the way I see it in thisstate is recreational anglers
really are treated as secondclass.
Maybe that's the same up anddown the coast, I don't know,

(01:08:19):
but in this state we are.
You know, think about it.
Go down the coast.
How many states have these hugefishing peers, that they have
educational classes?
They take people out fishing tosee you know what they have to
offer.
We don't have any of that.
So don't feel like you're notbeing conservation minded

(01:08:40):
because you want to continuefishing for striped bass.
We all want to, and if there,were no fish we wouldn't want to
.

Captain John McMurray (01:08:48):
I'm not.
I'm not thinking.
I'm not a conservationistanymore, but I do.
You know, I hear scuttle bloodfrom other people, yeah but you
know, yeah, they don't oh, hewants to keep fish now or he
wants to keep it open, eventhough there's well.

George Scocca (01:09:02):
He wants to keep it open because when he goes out
there it's freaking bass pavedeverywhere and you know, the
only spot that's that's a littleweak and they actually aren't.
It's just slotfish is not for.
But everywhere else there aretons of striped bass, some more
striped bass than maybe I canever recall.
I mean people that don't evenwant striped bass and catching

(01:09:24):
them at times.
They're talking in albies, Isee, and they're getting striped
bass.

Captain John McMurray (01:09:29):
So I was having a discussion with another
charterboat captain a few weeksago and about you know how much
more difficult it is to bookstriped bass trips than it used
to be, and that's because, well,his, his idea, his opinion was
that was because it's so damneasy now, like you go out and
your buddy Joe's C-Ray, like Isaid, at 10 o'clock in catchroom

(01:09:49):
, whereas you know it kind ofneeded a professional when
things weren't as abundant as itwas.

George Scocca (01:09:53):
Right, right, right, yeah, that kind of makes.
That kind of makes some sense.
Well look, john you, you'vebeen around a long time.
I respect everything you'vedone.

Captain John McMurray (01:10:08):
Not as long as you've been Excuse me.
No, I haven't been around aslong as you.

George Scocca (01:10:14):
No, no, no, no, no, that's for sure.
I mean, geez, I've been aroundnow what 30 something years, a
long time, but I'm still here.
This is actually my passion.
I don't really make in fact, Idon't make one dime on it, but
I'm pretty much retired.
So, but you know, I'm sittinghere watching everything that's

(01:10:35):
happening and there's no onedoing anything about it.
I'm going to just get into onething for one minute and I'll
give you an example.
You got these guys that havebeen fishing shark off the beach
like forever, and now there's areg coming in that's going to
seriously restrict them.
And look, I get that many ofthe fish they're targeting are

(01:10:57):
not that they're targeting them,but many of them that are being
caught are protected sharks.
But many of the boaters arecatching sharks or protected
sharks, and so they've beensingled out.
They basically I don't know ifyou know this they're going to
shut them out of the fishery.
They're forcing them to use a12 inch leader for shark.

(01:11:19):
They're not allowed to deploy.
They were deploying with dronesand kayaks and not allowed to
do that anymore.
Well, they're coming close tothis decision, so like we're
being attacked on every angle,and I just see it that way and
remember.
I'm sure you know this, but thebest thing for striped bass,

(01:11:39):
shark and everything else is ifno one fished for them.
That would be the best thing.
Nobody was fishing.
But is that what we want?
I don't think so.

Captain John McMurray (01:11:49):
You know, there's a lot of folks who
constantly use the refrainwhatever's best for the bass.
Well, guess what Whatever'sbest is if nobody touches them
Exactly and I don't think theyare either, but you still hear
it over and over again.

George Scocca (01:12:03):
Yeah, someone always got.
Look, you know, this one I'mgoing to kind of close with in
that and I'm not including youin it because you're kind of
really not in it as much as youwere but we have dinosaurs in
New York that are representingus.
We have people that are sittingin very powerful places when it

(01:12:25):
comes to fisheries decisions,that claim to be speaking for us
and they are.
It's.
Nothing could be further fromthe truth, and I will tell you
we will.
We will start targeting eachboard member on the MRAC and

(01:12:45):
we're going to go after the NCOMcommittee on all these things,
and we're going to start gettinglegislators involved once again
, because we're getting run,we're getting run over and
that's got to change.

Captain John McMurray (01:12:58):
No, it's interesting that if you talk to
anybody on the decision makingside, particularly the
legislative side, they don'twant to touch fisheries because
it's such a contentious issue.
They realize they're going tolose votes one way or the other,
so they just and that's part ofthe reason we don't have a
legislative commissioner at the,at ASMFC right now Nobody wants

(01:13:19):
to buck and touch it.

George Scocca (01:13:21):
So that would be picked by the administration,
right?

Captain John McMurray (01:13:26):
Because I'm thinking yeah, well, so it's
yeah, the Senate and the Ithink the Senate and the problem
with New York is that there'snothing codified about how you
pick a, how you pick alegislative commissioner.
It just, it just kind ofhappens and right now, if I
understand the politicalsituation correctly, is nobody

(01:13:47):
really wants to step up becauseit's so contentious.

George Scocca (01:13:50):
Well, is that something you'd like to do?

Captain John McMurray (01:13:54):
I did it for seven years.
I know I wouldn't throw my, Iwouldn't make a concerted effort
to do it.
But if a legislator were tocome ask me to do it, I would
consider, yeah, but I've youknow with it, dude, I got
absolutely fucking murdered onsocial media for some of the

(01:14:14):
positions that I felt were theright positions to take and I
don't think if I tried to, if Itried to get that position
without being asked I lobbiedfor it I would get skewered
again.
I think I don't think that theywant those guys want me there,
right?
Well, look, I'm working on somethings.

George Scocca (01:14:33):
I've been reaching out.
Well, there's nobody.
And I've been speaking with anumber of key legislators.
See, no one does that.
No one.
They haven't heard from anyone.
I got in touch with the Encon.
The head of Encon committees,the Republican out East I'm
trying to think I can't think ofhis last name, oh my God, I

(01:14:54):
spoke Palombo and really niceguy had no clue that we have
assault water license coming.
So I'm not sure how they'redoing it without talking to the
legislature.
I'm thinking it's got to bepassed through the legislature.
I had no clue about that, noclue about the striped ass
situation, because nobody'stalking to them, no one.

(01:15:16):
So they're wide open.
In fact, I should have one on apodcast next week and
discussing what they can do forus.
So we need to get we need toget the legislators back
involved because, john, you werethere.
What we did was pretty amazing.

(01:15:39):
I mean, the bill that we closedon Striped Bass is still
enforced today, right as far asthe commercial.

Captain John McMurray (01:15:49):
take the bunker bill all those things we
did Absolutely, and I think ifyou have the will and the people
to help out to move the ship ina different direction, in the
right direction, then it'scertainly possible and you could
do it.
It just that doesn't seem toexist right now.

George Scocca (01:16:06):
Yeah Well, people are in for a surprise.
I mean, especially, I got likeabout six months and I'm putting
my last company to bed Afterthat.
Watch out, I'm going to have alot of time, although I will be
in Florida for six months a year.
So I had down there you weretalking about largemouth fishing
.
I had down a couple of weeksand I'm on this gorgeous

(01:16:28):
freaking quarry with hugelargemouth peacock bass.
I love it.
I do whatever, In fact.

Captain John McMurray (01:16:34):
I had skin around there.
That's how I grew up, is doingthat, you know that's.
That's how I got the bug.
I live walking distance fromthe Potomac and from the age of
seven on, I walk down thereevery day with a bag full of
plugs in a big caster.
That was my thing, man.

George Scocca (01:16:50):
Well, look it turned into.
Look, you have a beautifulfamily.
I was joking with you aboutwhat I said.
I think you're looking great.
You're a tough dude man.
You're kind of looking like anold salt, though I don't know
You're like a salty captain.

Captain John McMurray (01:17:05):
I'm feeling pretty old too.
To be honest, I'm not sure howmuch I'm going to be behind that
helm.

George Scocca (01:17:11):
Your son is going to be kicking your ass soon.

Captain John McMurray (01:17:14):
Yeah, I know, I know he's almost there
All right, Johnny.

George Scocca (01:17:18):
Look, it's been really, really good.
Is there anything else you wantto discuss before we close it
out?

Captain John McMurray (01:17:26):
I don't think so man Make sure you tell
people how they could get intouch with you.
Yeah, yeah, it's.
Nyctunacom is my website andthere's a booking calendar there
and everything and my you knowyou find my email address and my
cell number on that on thewebsite also.

George Scocca (01:17:42):
All right, great, all right, john, it's been
really a pleasure.
I always love speaking with youand I wouldn't worry too much
about you know.
Just don't get yourself wrappedin it.
They do it to me.
I don't read it.
Yeah, if I make a post onFacebook, I don't go back for
like a month, so I don't carewhat they say.

Captain John McMurray (01:18:03):
You know what it's like.
You try to ignore it, butpeople keep sending you
screenshots.
But whatever, you got to have athick skin, that's all.
I think my skin's probably alittle thicker now than it was
back then when all that shit wasgoing on, because I just wasn't
prepared for it.
But whatever, man, well looksay hello to the way.
Yeah.

George Scocca (01:18:23):
All right, thanks , george, thanks a lot, and
Johnny.
I get this feeling we're goingto be in touch in the near
future, so but good luck, man.
I hope you have a really goodclose out to the season.

Captain John McMurray (01:18:34):
Thanks, buddy, appreciate it All, right,
pal.

George Scocca (01:18:37):
That wraps up another episode of the New York
Fishing Podcast.
I'd like to thank you all forlistening.
Please remember to hit thatsubscribe button and remember
you can listen to the New YorkFishing Podcast at any place and
any time.
So when you can't watch, besure to listen.
Until next time, folks, I wantto give up before I go.

(01:19:00):
I just want to give a quickshout out to my friends over at
myanglercom.
You know who you are and Iappreciate everything you're
doing over there.
So until next time, folks,tight lines all, and God bless
America.