July 15, 2025 • 22 mins
Today, Rob Boudreau hosts Tedd Lipka and Wes Aniton, both Civil Affairs Lieutenant Colonels in the U.S. Marine Corps Reserves, as they discuss their experiences in Europe and Africa.
---
One CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at CApodcasting@gmail.com or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www.civilaffairsassoc.org
---
Great news!
Feedspot, the podcast industry ranking system, rated One CA Podcast as one of the top 10 shows on foreign policy.
Check it out at:
https://podcast.feedspot.com/foreign_policy_podcasts/
---
Special Thanks to Tatiana Eva-Marie and the Avalon Jazz Band for the sample of Menilmontant. retrieved from https://youtu.be/N4zOi8h-Uds?si=ZMutMnLUOvJKjU5L
#CivilAffairs #ForeignPolicy #MilitaryPodcast #USMC #GlobalAffairs #DiplomacyMatters #InternationalRelations #DevelopmentDiplomacy #FieldAgents #PartnerNation #ListenAndLearn #VoicesFromTheField #FeedspotTop10 #TopPodcast #PodcastCommunity
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome back to the One CA Podcast.
I'm your host, Rob Boudreau, andtoday we're joined by Lieutenant
Colonel W Anaton and Lieutenant Colonel Ted Lipka, both of the
Marine Corps Reserve. W Anaton is a Judge Advocate and
civil affairs officer in the Marine Corps Reserve.
He currently works for the MAGTAF Staff Training Program,
or MSTP, as a Judge Advocate andcivil affairs trainer and his
(00:24):
civilian capacity. He is a deputy general counsel
for a state agency in Maryland. Lieutenant Colonel Lipka is also
with MSTP. He is an artillery officer and
civil affairs officer by reservespecialty and in his civilian
capacity, he is a cybersecurity network engineer for El Paso
County in Colorado. The views expressed by your host
and the participants today are their own and do not represent
(00:45):
the views of the United States government or any of their
components. In addition to being joined by
our guest today, my family has anew puppy and so you may hear
her join us once or twice duringthe podcast.
But with that gentleman, welcometo the program.
Thanks for having me. Yes, excited to be here.
I appreciate that. Let's talk a little bit about
your experiences and civil affairs.
(01:06):
So starting with you, LieutenantColonel Lipka, if you could
share with some of your experiences you had with 4th
Keg. So when I joined 4th Civil
Affairs was in the height of COVID.
So as you might imagine, it was difficult to actually get out
the door and get anything done. And in terms of anything like a
(01:27):
long term annual training type of a deal, I spent a lot of time
in Fourth Civil Affairs supporting the exercises out at
29 Palms, like the MTX, and really trying to preach the
gospel of civil affairs inclusion in those exercises.
(01:48):
Because particularly in the Marine Corps, we're really kind
of operating from a deficit and trying to get people to really
appreciate and integrates civil affairs as a part of the whole
exercise. So every opportunity that I got,
I would go out and try and just drum up business for us and make
(02:08):
sure that Civil Affairs was getting as much inclusion and
acceptance as possible. The one exercise that I got to
go OCONUS or was Resolute Sentinel down in Guatemala where
we were a part of the bed wrap portion of the ongoing evolution
that was down there in 2023. And just a tremendous
(02:33):
opportunity and really enjoyed the opportunity to work with
foreign partners, work with our sister services in executing the
civil affairs mission. That's great.
And you entered MTX? Is that at the Mountain Warfare
Training Center? No.
No, that was actually out of 29 halls.
OK, I misspoke then. Is is that predeployment
(02:54):
training then? No, this was not the large scale
exercise, but one of the larger ones where it was kind of force
on force and the focus of effortwas trying to take over Hidalgo
City out there at 29 Palms. And the different forces would
have to enter the city, identifywho the key leaders were and try
(03:19):
to basically make their case to the police chief or the mayor,
what have you, as to why they should be who the locals were
supporting by the opposing force.
And as civil affairs folks, we were trying to state that
engagement. Got it.
Terrific. And if you can give us a little
(03:41):
more description of how you participated in a civil affairs
capacity with Resolute Sentinel,what can you tell us about that?
There were six rotational themesthat were there for two weeks at
a time and you had a durational team that was responsible or
sort of the macro aspect of whatwas going to occur during the
(04:04):
time that the multinational combined services activity was
taking place. We filled our days largely with
going out into some of these smaller villages and let these
folks know, hey, we're setting up an events here in a couple of
weeks to provide free medical and dental care to the people in
(04:28):
your community. And we hope that you'll spread
the word and we hope that you'llattend.
And the other side of that was going into communities where
those events had already occurred because there were
rotational teams that had gone before us conducted the events.
And so we wanted to speak with the communities and be like,
hey, if we were to do something like this again in your
(04:51):
community, how could we better provide services for you and
kind of collate that informationup to higher?
So they had good situational awareness.
In addition, one of the kind of collateral duties that we
undertook was going to one of the local universities there in
Las Flores and providing Englishclasses.
(05:14):
And the teams before us just putout the word that, hey, these
folks are going to be in the area.
They're willing to help you withyour conversational English.
All you have to do is show up. There's no charge.
There's no strings attached. Just come and practice your
English. And that was pretty rewarding.
When we were meeting with these folks, the sincerity in their
(05:37):
their desire to learn was reallykind of picking back.
It was like, wow. And the types of conversations
they wanted to learn about had real practical application
contrasted with kind of the shotgun approach that I remember
in language classes in high school and college.
Over to you, Wes, if you could. Same request.
(05:58):
Can you tell us about some of the exercises and experiences
that you've been able to participate in there?
I was able to participate in twosignificant exercises when I was
with 4th CAD. The first was Trident Juncture
and then later as a deck commander, I was able to
participate in African Lion. So Trident Juncture was a NATO
(06:18):
exercise where NATO allies are testing their abilities to
defend their populations and territories and deter potential
adversaries and essentially justto enhance their abilities to
work together. In that particular exercise, it
was 2 meth. And from ACA perspective, we
were conducting CA operations and CMO operations on behalf of
(06:42):
two meth. And we were focusing obviously
on the civil dimension, particularly in a manner to make
sure that the civilian population didn't interfere with
our military operations, but also to gain support from the
civil population in all the military activities that we were
doing. Now obviously there was the
(07:03):
exercise component and there wasthe real world component.
And so we were actually working both sides of that.
From an exercise perspective, wewere engaging in two leader
engagements. But also.
We were being mindful how our operation was impacting the
civilian population in real time.
So it was quite a dynamic situation.
(07:24):
We had two teams that were in support of division.
We had another team that was in support of the MIG or the Meth
information group. And then we had a team that was
in support of the Marine Logistics Group.
My team was put in hell, which is the actual name of the town
in Norway. I mean, so we were going out, we
were conducting key leader engagements with the fire
departments, police departments,port and maritime authority
(07:48):
staff, schools. It was really dynamic and
impactful. And I think that we could
provide capabilities, we could provide value.
Any military operation there is going to be a civilian component
there. And if you're going to be
successful, you need to understand the civilian
population. You can understand their
leaders. If you don't, then you're
(08:09):
setting yourself up for potential failure moving
forward. I was then able to participate
in African Lion, which was an incredible experience.
As a matter of fact, I will go as far as to say that my civil
affairs team, who was composed of several senior Marines who
were batteries of civil affairs operations, they said that was
the most impactful exercise for them and that when we were.
(08:31):
In Ghana. And it was one team.
We were alone and unafraid and we were providing civil affairs
academics for the Ghanaian ArmedForces in Tamale and then we
were also conducting a Med cap in the MONGO Ghana and we were
working directly with the US Army Civil affairs team and that
(08:54):
team was truly embedded in Western Africa.
They were there durationally. They had been there for several
months. That family got there.
I think they were had already been there for four months.
So they had really established record there.
They really knew the civil environment.
And so we were really falling inon then and assisting them in
(09:15):
conducting the academic construction to the Ghanaian
Armed Forces and assisting them,supporting them with the Med
cap. But that was during a time when
some of those Western African nations were pulling away from
the US, right? They were kicking out Western
European and and American forces.
And so that exercise was super impactful.
(09:35):
They were incredible. They're super professional and
they have a host of experience in and of themselves.
But they were trying to make a more official academic product
for their armed forces to teach and replicate over time.
Even though they're seasoned, they wanted to make it more
official. And that's why they brought in
the Army and then US supporting the Army.
(09:57):
You talked a little bit about integration with the Meg during
Trident Juncture, So any of yourCA teams have interaction with
the NATO partners? We were solely focused on
working with our Norwegian counterparts, and the Home Guard
was our liaison. And so each of the civil affairs
teams, one with a MIG, one with MLG, you were in different areas
of Norway. And so each of us were working
(10:17):
with different components of theHome Guard.
That's who we were directly working with.
And when you ride in hell, you were immediately attached with a
Home Guard liaison. And they were the ones who were
able to really get us connected with the civil environment.
And so the Home Guard officers were excellent in helping us
navigate the civilian population.
(10:37):
And so once we let them know what we were trying to do, they
would guide it, say here's the contact for the police chief,
here's the contact for the Fire Chief, here's the contact for
any of the port authorities here, the contacts of school
leaders, whole principals. And we contacted them.
And then we created a schedule and just went out and engaged
with them whenever they were available.
(10:58):
And that's how that pretty much worked.
And any time that we weren't able to engage with a key
leader, that's when we would go and do infrastructure
assessments like assess bridges or will we go and assess
cultural sites and take notes onthat to report to hire?
I appreciate that. And Wes, are you familiar with
the NATO SEMIC model of civil military coordination?
(11:19):
Can you speak a little bit to how you may have come into
distinctions between the NATO model and what Marine Corps
civil affairs look like, and howyou're able to bridge those
differences? Yes, I think most of the
differences come down to semantics and not necessarily
how to conduct the operations. When we were working with the
Hung Guard and when they introduced us their simic
(11:40):
components, as we talked and worked together, we realized
that the way that we do civil affairs in the United States
Marine Corps is quite similar tothe way they'd be theirs.
So it was an easy transition. I don't know if that's fully
answering your question, but it was pretty seamless.
It sounds like both sides were fully engaged and really focused
on the mission and getting past the semantical differences.
(12:03):
If we could return to Africa, align your experience with the
Ghanaian forces. It sounds like you're working
with them toward, if I can use the word, better professionalize
their civil affairs. What do their forces look like
compared to ours? They've been engaged in a lot of
military operations, so they arefully functional, fully in days,
extremely competent fighting force, and they have a lot of
(12:25):
experience working with the UN, so they are very tuned in and
they're supremely professional. But yeah, they wanted to create
an actual academic period of instruction to formalize it
because even though they've beendoing it for years, going to
various conflicts in northern and western Africa, those troops
have been all over. It was impressive working with
(12:47):
them and speaking with them because even though we were
given the period of obstruction,I will say 100% that we were
also running for men when we hadour breakout sessions and
talking with them and speaking with them about their
experiences. They were incredibly and truly.
The only difference was, is thatwe have formalized our process,
our training, so it can be replicated and taught to many
(13:08):
different components quickly. It was my understanding that
they didn't quite have that year, that academic structure,
and that's what the US Army was doing over there.
So the Ghanaian Armed Forces, they were incredible to work
with. Ted, if we can return to you,
talk about your transition from functioning in the operational
side, if you will, at 4th CAG and then become MSTP in a
(13:30):
different role as more of a training function.
Can you tell us about what that transition was like and how your
understanding of the mission changed as you made the
transition? As a practitioner of civil
affairs, you're really still trying to proselytize and get
higher to take seriously the civil affairs aspect of the
(13:52):
entire mission. And I don't think there's any
shortage of historical examples that demonstrate the folly of
not seriously considering the civil affairs aspect in the
overall plan of execution. And so civil affairs is as much
of a fire's elements as anythingelse that we might target,
(14:17):
because targeting is more than just taking something out of the
fight. Targeting is identifying what
are the things that we are goingto need to restore as quickly as
possible in order to maintain the whole hearts and minds
aspect of executing our overall mission.
I've been fortunate to have the experience, both from an
(14:40):
artillery's perspective and a similar perspective, of making
sure that those questions could answer.
I'm encouraged by the inroads that the Marine Corps is making
in terms of the information community and how we are
embracing that, adapting that. I really wish that more
(15:03):
consideration would be given to the reserve community in that
perspective. And I understand that it is
difficult for people in the active forces to fully
appreciate what reservists can bring to the fight, completely
understand the perspective of, oh, the weekend warriors, blah,
blah, blah, this and that. Yeah, that's great.
(15:23):
But guess what, 28 days a month we're out there hooking and
jabbing in the real world, learning and executing skills
that have very practical application to what it is that
you are trying to execute in a military environment.
And I harken back to my first appointment in 2003.
(15:44):
There we were. It can't be with Gmail in Kuwait
and we're scrambling to try and restore infrastructure to the
Iraqi people. And I still remember as a Lance
Corporal, staff and CEO's from the active duty forces coming
around to my unit and being like, OK, So what do you guys do
on the outside? We had cops, we had HVAC people,
(16:04):
we had electricians. And they were like, oh, this is
great. And they were making lists and
asking people you could go home in a couple of weeks, but are
you willing to stay and be a part of the effort to help
restore this country to what it was before we toppled Saddam's
regime? At that time, we hadn't found
Saddam, but we had definitely just routed the Iraqi
(16:26):
government. And people were like,
absolutely, because they wanted to be in the fight.
They wanted to contribute. Unfortunately, I think too many
times our active duty brethren overlooked that because their
perspective is so myopic of thisis what we learned in our
initial training, our NCO courses, our staff NCO courses,
(16:47):
etcetera. And so I think the civil affairs
community, particularly in Marine Corps, bears kind of the
brunt of that because we fear what we don't understand.
And so it's on us as syllabary practitioners to better
communicate to people what we can bring to the fight.
Well, Ted, you are preaching to the choir and we appreciate you
(17:09):
reinforcing the multifaceted value that reservists bring to
the Marine Corps civil affairs capability.
Well, I think that brings us to a good transition point to talk
about some lessons learned. So return to you, Wes, if you
could please share a a couple overarching lessons learned,
things you've gleaned from your experience both in an operating
and a training capacity. Truly understanding the
(17:32):
environment that we're in it because we have this
understanding of what civil affairs is and what we do.
We have to understand that it differs depending on the
environment. So you know, when we're going
through the schoolhouse and we're training in the Cags,
oftentimes the mindset is still where we have fat, the Middle
East, Northern Africa, which is very different than if we're
(17:52):
going to ship. Then we're now talking about
Europe because as I was saying earlier, Norway, they've got
their Home Guard, they know all their Ms. do have their major
supply routes. They know all the areas where
they can create dislocated civilian camps, right?
They know all that. So it's the understanding of
when we're working with our NATOallies when we come in there it
(18:16):
is truly support and they were really showing us hey, this is
where you can plug in this is where you can help.
We've got this we've got that ifyou can add value to what we've
already have in place great. The Western African nations,
their militaries extremely competent, extremely
professional, super knowledgeable and what I learned
(18:37):
in my time in African Mayan is that we need to do a better job
of the country study. We do this, hello, we're going
to learn about the region that we're going to you, but when we
are going into those other countries and nations like
Central and South America and Western Africa and Northern
Africa, country study really isn't enough.
Like doing the open source research on there.
(18:58):
It's a good start, but it's not going to cut it.
And that's where when we know that we're going to be sending
Marines to one of those countries, starting studying
them months out in a meaningful way, not just Internet search.
The third part of that would be making sure that our people get
to the initial planning conference is actually getting
their feet in the country. Because when I was involved in
(19:20):
African Lion and I was there with one of my Marines, he was a
captain super sharp, and he is of Nigerian descent.
And having him there with me wassuch an incredible resource.
And he was one who truly taught me about our shortcomings when
it comes to really trying to understand the region before we
(19:41):
get there because we're supposedto be civil affairs.
That's our job to really understand it.
He was teaching me about how we are short changing ourselves by
not doing the proper research onthese regions that are truly
foreign to us. It's a very wise.
Counsel, turn to you. Ted, any takeaways from your
experiences you'd like to share with us?
I think my. Greatest experience in civil
(20:04):
affairs has been just kind of the way that I perceive the
world around me in general. I really wondered going into the
community, what was the drill weekend going to look like?
And by and large, I feel like wereally did maximize our time on
drill weekends and found ways tocreate some muscle memory on the
(20:29):
skills that you need as a civil affairs practitioner.
And coming from the artillery community, that's generally a
heavy lift because you're talking about, OK, we have to
acquisition ammo and make sure we have the funding, make sure
that there is rounds in the Armory that we can check out,
etcetera. Whereas Civil affairs it's hey,
(20:52):
we can just go out into our community and practice the
skills that we need to be proficient at as civil affairs
practitioners. We can go to a sports arena or a
hospital or an airport and those.
People. In my experience, were more than
(21:12):
willing to meet with us, tell ustheir story, showcase the
capabilities that they had in their facility.
And so I really appreciated the ability to maximize a drill
weekend in that capacity and provide real training to our
Marines rather than trying to tokind of jump through hoops and
(21:34):
just make something up to to justify our existence on a drill
weekend. All right, well.
Terrific. Thank you both for being a guest
on our show today. Separate Videls very much for.
Inviting me. Thanks for listening.
If you get a chance, please likeand subscribe and rate the show
on your favorite podcast platform.
Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an
(21:55):
episode, e-mail us at ca.podcasting@gmail.com.
I'll have the e-mail and CA Association website in the show
notes. And now, most importantly, to
those currently out in the field, working with a partner
nation's people or leadership toforward US relations, thank you
all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host.
(22:16):
Stay tuned for more great episodes one CA podcast.
Welcome back to the One CA Podcast.
I'm your host, Rob Boudreau, andtoday we're joined by Lieutenant
Colonel W Anaton and Lieutenant Colonel Ted Lipka, both of the
Marine Corps Reserve. W Anaton is a Judge Advocate and
civil affairs officer in the Marine Corps Reserve.
He currently works for the MAGTAF Staff Training Program,
or MSTP, as a Judge Advocate andcivil affairs trainer and his
(00:24):
civilian capacity. He is a deputy general counsel
for a state agency in Maryland. Lieutenant Colonel Lipka is also
with MSTP. He is an artillery officer and
civil affairs officer by reservespecialty and in his civilian
capacity, he is a cybersecurity network engineer for El Paso
County in Colorado. The views expressed by your host
and the participants today are their own and do not represent
(00:45):
the views of the United States government or any of their
components. In addition to being joined by
our guest today, my family has anew puppy and so you may hear
her join us once or twice duringthe podcast.
But with that gentleman, welcometo the program.
Thanks for having me. Yes, excited to be here.
I appreciate that. Let's talk a little bit about
your experiences and civil affairs.
(01:06):
So starting with you, LieutenantColonel Lipka, if you could
share with some of your experiences you had with 4th
Keg. So when I joined 4th Civil
Affairs was in the height of COVID.
So as you might imagine, it was difficult to actually get out
the door and get anything done. And in terms of anything like a
(01:27):
long term annual training type of a deal, I spent a lot of time
in Fourth Civil Affairs supporting the exercises out at
29 Palms, like the MTX, and really trying to preach the
gospel of civil affairs inclusion in those exercises.
(01:48):
Because particularly in the Marine Corps, we're really kind
of operating from a deficit and trying to get people to really
appreciate and integrates civil affairs as a part of the whole
exercise. So every opportunity that I got,
I would go out and try and just drum up business for us and make
(02:08):
sure that Civil Affairs was getting as much inclusion and
acceptance as possible. The one exercise that I got to
go OCONUS or was Resolute Sentinel down in Guatemala where
we were a part of the bed wrap portion of the ongoing evolution
that was down there in 2023. And just a tremendous
(02:33):
opportunity and really enjoyed the opportunity to work with
foreign partners, work with our sister services in executing the
civil affairs mission. That's great.
And you entered MTX? Is that at the Mountain Warfare
Training Center? No.
No, that was actually out of 29 halls.
OK, I misspoke then. Is is that predeployment
(02:54):
training then? No, this was not the large scale
exercise, but one of the larger ones where it was kind of force
on force and the focus of effortwas trying to take over Hidalgo
City out there at 29 Palms. And the different forces would
have to enter the city, identifywho the key leaders were and try
(03:19):
to basically make their case to the police chief or the mayor,
what have you, as to why they should be who the locals were
supporting by the opposing force.
And as civil affairs folks, we were trying to state that
engagement. Got it.
Terrific. And if you can give us a little
(03:41):
more description of how you participated in a civil affairs
capacity with Resolute Sentinel,what can you tell us about that?
There were six rotational themesthat were there for two weeks at
a time and you had a durational team that was responsible or
sort of the macro aspect of whatwas going to occur during the
(04:04):
time that the multinational combined services activity was
taking place. We filled our days largely with
going out into some of these smaller villages and let these
folks know, hey, we're setting up an events here in a couple of
weeks to provide free medical and dental care to the people in
(04:28):
your community. And we hope that you'll spread
the word and we hope that you'llattend.
And the other side of that was going into communities where
those events had already occurred because there were
rotational teams that had gone before us conducted the events.
And so we wanted to speak with the communities and be like,
hey, if we were to do something like this again in your
(04:51):
community, how could we better provide services for you and
kind of collate that informationup to higher?
So they had good situational awareness.
In addition, one of the kind of collateral duties that we
undertook was going to one of the local universities there in
Las Flores and providing Englishclasses.
(05:14):
And the teams before us just putout the word that, hey, these
folks are going to be in the area.
They're willing to help you withyour conversational English.
All you have to do is show up. There's no charge.
There's no strings attached. Just come and practice your
English. And that was pretty rewarding.
When we were meeting with these folks, the sincerity in their
(05:37):
their desire to learn was reallykind of picking back.
It was like, wow. And the types of conversations
they wanted to learn about had real practical application
contrasted with kind of the shotgun approach that I remember
in language classes in high school and college.
Over to you, Wes, if you could. Same request.
(05:58):
Can you tell us about some of the exercises and experiences
that you've been able to participate in there?
I was able to participate in twosignificant exercises when I was
with 4th CAD. The first was Trident Juncture
and then later as a deck commander, I was able to
participate in African Lion. So Trident Juncture was a NATO
(06:18):
exercise where NATO allies are testing their abilities to
defend their populations and territories and deter potential
adversaries and essentially justto enhance their abilities to
work together. In that particular exercise, it
was 2 meth. And from ACA perspective, we
were conducting CA operations and CMO operations on behalf of
(06:42):
two meth. And we were focusing obviously
on the civil dimension, particularly in a manner to make
sure that the civilian population didn't interfere with
our military operations, but also to gain support from the
civil population in all the military activities that we were
doing. Now obviously there was the
(07:03):
exercise component and there wasthe real world component.
And so we were actually working both sides of that.
From an exercise perspective, wewere engaging in two leader
engagements. But also.
We were being mindful how our operation was impacting the
civilian population in real time.
So it was quite a dynamic situation.
(07:24):
We had two teams that were in support of division.
We had another team that was in support of the MIG or the Meth
information group. And then we had a team that was
in support of the Marine Logistics Group.
My team was put in hell, which is the actual name of the town
in Norway. I mean, so we were going out, we
were conducting key leader engagements with the fire
departments, police departments,port and maritime authority
(07:48):
staff, schools. It was really dynamic and
impactful. And I think that we could
provide capabilities, we could provide value.
Any military operation there is going to be a civilian component
there. And if you're going to be
successful, you need to understand the civilian
population. You can understand their
leaders. If you don't, then you're
(08:09):
setting yourself up for potential failure moving
forward. I was then able to participate
in African Lion, which was an incredible experience.
As a matter of fact, I will go as far as to say that my civil
affairs team, who was composed of several senior Marines who
were batteries of civil affairs operations, they said that was
the most impactful exercise for them and that when we were.
(08:31):
In Ghana. And it was one team.
We were alone and unafraid and we were providing civil affairs
academics for the Ghanaian ArmedForces in Tamale and then we
were also conducting a Med cap in the MONGO Ghana and we were
working directly with the US Army Civil affairs team and that
(08:54):
team was truly embedded in Western Africa.
They were there durationally. They had been there for several
months. That family got there.
I think they were had already been there for four months.
So they had really established record there.
They really knew the civil environment.
And so we were really falling inon then and assisting them in
(09:15):
conducting the academic construction to the Ghanaian
Armed Forces and assisting them,supporting them with the Med
cap. But that was during a time when
some of those Western African nations were pulling away from
the US, right? They were kicking out Western
European and and American forces.
And so that exercise was super impactful.
(09:35):
They were incredible. They're super professional and
they have a host of experience in and of themselves.
But they were trying to make a more official academic product
for their armed forces to teach and replicate over time.
Even though they're seasoned, they wanted to make it more
official. And that's why they brought in
the Army and then US supporting the Army.
(09:57):
You talked a little bit about integration with the Meg during
Trident Juncture, So any of yourCA teams have interaction with
the NATO partners? We were solely focused on
working with our Norwegian counterparts, and the Home Guard
was our liaison. And so each of the civil affairs
teams, one with a MIG, one with MLG, you were in different areas
of Norway. And so each of us were working
(10:17):
with different components of theHome Guard.
That's who we were directly working with.
And when you ride in hell, you were immediately attached with a
Home Guard liaison. And they were the ones who were
able to really get us connected with the civil environment.
And so the Home Guard officers were excellent in helping us
navigate the civilian population.
(10:37):
And so once we let them know what we were trying to do, they
would guide it, say here's the contact for the police chief,
here's the contact for the Fire Chief, here's the contact for
any of the port authorities here, the contacts of school
leaders, whole principals. And we contacted them.
And then we created a schedule and just went out and engaged
with them whenever they were available.
(10:58):
And that's how that pretty much worked.
And any time that we weren't able to engage with a key
leader, that's when we would go and do infrastructure
assessments like assess bridges or will we go and assess
cultural sites and take notes onthat to report to hire?
I appreciate that. And Wes, are you familiar with
the NATO SEMIC model of civil military coordination?
(11:19):
Can you speak a little bit to how you may have come into
distinctions between the NATO model and what Marine Corps
civil affairs look like, and howyou're able to bridge those
differences? Yes, I think most of the
differences come down to semantics and not necessarily
how to conduct the operations. When we were working with the
Hung Guard and when they introduced us their simic
(11:40):
components, as we talked and worked together, we realized
that the way that we do civil affairs in the United States
Marine Corps is quite similar tothe way they'd be theirs.
So it was an easy transition. I don't know if that's fully
answering your question, but it was pretty seamless.
It sounds like both sides were fully engaged and really focused
on the mission and getting past the semantical differences.
(12:03):
If we could return to Africa, align your experience with the
Ghanaian forces. It sounds like you're working
with them toward, if I can use the word, better professionalize
their civil affairs. What do their forces look like
compared to ours? They've been engaged in a lot of
military operations, so they arefully functional, fully in days,
extremely competent fighting force, and they have a lot of
(12:25):
experience working with the UN, so they are very tuned in and
they're supremely professional. But yeah, they wanted to create
an actual academic period of instruction to formalize it
because even though they've beendoing it for years, going to
various conflicts in northern and western Africa, those troops
have been all over. It was impressive working with
(12:47):
them and speaking with them because even though we were
given the period of obstruction,I will say 100% that we were
also running for men when we hadour breakout sessions and
talking with them and speaking with them about their
experiences. They were incredibly and truly.
The only difference was, is thatwe have formalized our process,
our training, so it can be replicated and taught to many
(13:08):
different components quickly. It was my understanding that
they didn't quite have that year, that academic structure,
and that's what the US Army was doing over there.
So the Ghanaian Armed Forces, they were incredible to work
with. Ted, if we can return to you,
talk about your transition from functioning in the operational
side, if you will, at 4th CAG and then become MSTP in a
(13:30):
different role as more of a training function.
Can you tell us about what that transition was like and how your
understanding of the mission changed as you made the
transition? As a practitioner of civil
affairs, you're really still trying to proselytize and get
higher to take seriously the civil affairs aspect of the
(13:52):
entire mission. And I don't think there's any
shortage of historical examples that demonstrate the folly of
not seriously considering the civil affairs aspect in the
overall plan of execution. And so civil affairs is as much
of a fire's elements as anythingelse that we might target,
(14:17):
because targeting is more than just taking something out of the
fight. Targeting is identifying what
are the things that we are goingto need to restore as quickly as
possible in order to maintain the whole hearts and minds
aspect of executing our overall mission.
I've been fortunate to have the experience, both from an
(14:40):
artillery's perspective and a similar perspective, of making
sure that those questions could answer.
I'm encouraged by the inroads that the Marine Corps is making
in terms of the information community and how we are
embracing that, adapting that. I really wish that more
(15:03):
consideration would be given to the reserve community in that
perspective. And I understand that it is
difficult for people in the active forces to fully
appreciate what reservists can bring to the fight, completely
understand the perspective of, oh, the weekend warriors, blah,
blah, blah, this and that. Yeah, that's great.
(15:23):
But guess what, 28 days a month we're out there hooking and
jabbing in the real world, learning and executing skills
that have very practical application to what it is that
you are trying to execute in a military environment.
And I harken back to my first appointment in 2003.
(15:44):
There we were. It can't be with Gmail in Kuwait
and we're scrambling to try and restore infrastructure to the
Iraqi people. And I still remember as a Lance
Corporal, staff and CEO's from the active duty forces coming
around to my unit and being like, OK, So what do you guys do
on the outside? We had cops, we had HVAC people,
(16:04):
we had electricians. And they were like, oh, this is
great. And they were making lists and
asking people you could go home in a couple of weeks, but are
you willing to stay and be a part of the effort to help
restore this country to what it was before we toppled Saddam's
regime? At that time, we hadn't found
Saddam, but we had definitely just routed the Iraqi
(16:26):
government. And people were like,
absolutely, because they wanted to be in the fight.
They wanted to contribute. Unfortunately, I think too many
times our active duty brethren overlooked that because their
perspective is so myopic of thisis what we learned in our
initial training, our NCO courses, our staff NCO courses,
(16:47):
etcetera. And so I think the civil affairs
community, particularly in Marine Corps, bears kind of the
brunt of that because we fear what we don't understand.
And so it's on us as syllabary practitioners to better
communicate to people what we can bring to the fight.
Well, Ted, you are preaching to the choir and we appreciate you
(17:09):
reinforcing the multifaceted value that reservists bring to
the Marine Corps civil affairs capability.
Well, I think that brings us to a good transition point to talk
about some lessons learned. So return to you, Wes, if you
could please share a a couple overarching lessons learned,
things you've gleaned from your experience both in an operating
and a training capacity. Truly understanding the
(17:32):
environment that we're in it because we have this
understanding of what civil affairs is and what we do.
We have to understand that it differs depending on the
environment. So you know, when we're going
through the schoolhouse and we're training in the Cags,
oftentimes the mindset is still where we have fat, the Middle
East, Northern Africa, which is very different than if we're
(17:52):
going to ship. Then we're now talking about
Europe because as I was saying earlier, Norway, they've got
their Home Guard, they know all their Ms. do have their major
supply routes. They know all the areas where
they can create dislocated civilian camps, right?
They know all that. So it's the understanding of
when we're working with our NATOallies when we come in there it
(18:16):
is truly support and they were really showing us hey, this is
where you can plug in this is where you can help.
We've got this we've got that ifyou can add value to what we've
already have in place great. The Western African nations,
their militaries extremely competent, extremely
professional, super knowledgeable and what I learned
(18:37):
in my time in African Mayan is that we need to do a better job
of the country study. We do this, hello, we're going
to learn about the region that we're going to you, but when we
are going into those other countries and nations like
Central and South America and Western Africa and Northern
Africa, country study really isn't enough.
Like doing the open source research on there.
(18:58):
It's a good start, but it's not going to cut it.
And that's where when we know that we're going to be sending
Marines to one of those countries, starting studying
them months out in a meaningful way, not just Internet search.
The third part of that would be making sure that our people get
to the initial planning conference is actually getting
their feet in the country. Because when I was involved in
(19:20):
African Lion and I was there with one of my Marines, he was a
captain super sharp, and he is of Nigerian descent.
And having him there with me wassuch an incredible resource.
And he was one who truly taught me about our shortcomings when
it comes to really trying to understand the region before we
(19:41):
get there because we're supposedto be civil affairs.
That's our job to really understand it.
He was teaching me about how we are short changing ourselves by
not doing the proper research onthese regions that are truly
foreign to us. It's a very wise.
Counsel, turn to you. Ted, any takeaways from your
experiences you'd like to share with us?
I think my. Greatest experience in civil
(20:04):
affairs has been just kind of the way that I perceive the
world around me in general. I really wondered going into the
community, what was the drill weekend going to look like?
And by and large, I feel like wereally did maximize our time on
drill weekends and found ways tocreate some muscle memory on the
(20:29):
skills that you need as a civil affairs practitioner.
And coming from the artillery community, that's generally a
heavy lift because you're talking about, OK, we have to
acquisition ammo and make sure we have the funding, make sure
that there is rounds in the Armory that we can check out,
etcetera. Whereas Civil affairs it's hey,
(20:52):
we can just go out into our community and practice the
skills that we need to be proficient at as civil affairs
practitioners. We can go to a sports arena or a
hospital or an airport and those.
People. In my experience, were more than
(21:12):
willing to meet with us, tell ustheir story, showcase the
capabilities that they had in their facility.
And so I really appreciated the ability to maximize a drill
weekend in that capacity and provide real training to our
Marines rather than trying to tokind of jump through hoops and
(21:34):
just make something up to to justify our existence on a drill
weekend. All right, well.
Terrific. Thank you both for being a guest
on our show today. Separate Videls very much for.
Inviting me. Thanks for listening.
If you get a chance, please likeand subscribe and rate the show
on your favorite podcast platform.
Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an
(21:55):
episode, e-mail us at ca.podcasting@gmail.com.
I'll have the e-mail and CA Association website in the show
notes. And now, most importantly, to
those currently out in the field, working with a partner
nation's people or leadership toforward US relations, thank you
all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host.
(22:16):
Stay tuned for more great episodes one CA podcast.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!