October 14, 2025 • 20 mins
What does it take to break into foreign policy—and thrive in the “last three feet” of U.S. diplomacy? In this episode, we sit down with Vasu Vaitla, a Georgetown adjunct-associate professor whose career spans the U.S. Department of State, the United Nations, NGO Initiatives of Change, and the U.S. Air Force.
Vasu shares practical advice for students and professionals seeking careers in foreign affairs, whether through government, NGOs, or multinational organizations. From classroom insights to field-tested strategies, this conversation is a must-listen for anyone looking to serve at the intersection of policy, people, and purpose.
🔗 Learn more about Vasu Vaitla: Georgetown Faculty Profile
🎶 Featuring a sample of Georgetown’s fight song—drums courtesy of the Chicago Bears.
One CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association, spotlighting voices from the frontlines of diplomacy, development, and defense. Feedspot ranks us among the top 10 foreign policy podcasts—see why at Feedspot’s Foreign Policy Rankings.
📬 Contact the show: CApodcasting@gmail.com
🌐 Visit us: civilaffairsassoc.org
Aspiring to serve in the “last three feet” of diplomacy? 🎙️ In this episode of #OneCAPodcast, Georgetown’s Vasu Vaitla shares actionable advice for launching a career in foreign policy—from the classroom to the field. Whether you're eyeing the #ForeignService, NGOs, or multilateral organizations, this is your roadmap to impact.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Welcome to the ONE CA podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines.
ONE CA is a product of the CivilAffairs Association and brings
in people who are current or former military diplomats,
development officers, and field agents to discuss their
experiences on ground with a partner nation's people and
leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone
interested in working the last three feet of Foreign Relations.
(00:27):
To contact the show, e-mail us at ca.podcasting@gmail.com or
look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at
www.dubbacivilaffairsassoci.org.I'll have those in the show
notes. Please welcome Vasu Vaitla, a
Georgetown adjacent professor ofinternational affairs and
experience in making foreign policy, directing capacity
(00:48):
building programs and in intelligence analysis.
He has worked at the US Department of State, United
Nations and the NGO Initiatives of Change.
Basu has also served at the US Air Force and has a PhD in
global affairs, a master's in international politics and a
bachelor's in political science.I've been teaching at Georgetown
(01:10):
for five or six years as an adjunct assistant professor on
theory and practice of International Security in the
School of Foreign Services Security Studies program.
What I was bringing to the students was a practitioner's
view and linking it to theory. But honestly, some of the
discussions in class ended up informing some of the briefings
that I did at State. There's one story that I share
(01:31):
with the students in which two days before a briefing that I
had to Secretary Blinken, we were talking about the
democratic peace theory, and that discussion actually changed
the way that I framed it to Secretary Blinken.
Of course, you don't talk theoryto principals, even if they're
very heady and very interested in it.
But when the issues of democracydid come up, the discussions in
(01:54):
class certainly inform how I ended up presenting it.
Because you've seen it from the military standpoint, you've seen
it from the NGO standpoint, you've seen it from the
diplomatic standpoint. Exactly.
Before I came to state, I workeda couple years at the United
Nations, worked a couple of years in a international, a non
government organization, a peacebuilding organizational called
(02:16):
Initiatives of Change. And I also had about 10 years of
experience in the US Air Force, 5 active duty, couple of years
in the California Air National Guard, and a couple of years in
the Air Force. So it's the sum total of all
those different kinds of experiences in public, in semi
public institutions that ends upinforming how international
(02:38):
theory actually unfolds in practice and how practice is
actually happens. I'm actually going into the next
semester thinking about how do Iactually frame all the changes
that are happening right now, changes that even scholars are
trying to make sense out of. And what's changing is not only
the way US foreign policy is conducted, that is, whether
(03:01):
we're going to choose retrenchment or internationalism
as a grand strategy, but it's also about the global system.
Is this transitioning to a clarity in which the United
States retains its position, or is it a unit polarity organized
under China that's uncertain? Is it going to be a bipolar
system between the US and China or will it transition to a multi
(03:23):
polar system across countries onvarious issues?
So there's a lot of really uncertain time.
And so the big caveat being thatskills of the past may or may
not match future demands. So what am I going to convey to
the students coming into this class?
And I think there is a way to prepare for the uncertainty.
(03:44):
I'm thinking about Maya Angelou.I think she said something to
the effect of you may not control all the events, but you
can decide not to be reduced by them.
And it is about embracing that uncertainty.
And a key part of this is what Eric Hoffer, the American
philosopher, said about dealing with complexity in a time of
drastic change. It's the learners who inherit
(04:06):
the future. So this is about how one moves
through uncertainty. And at the end of the day, for
me, that's about resilience, notjust reacting to uncertainty,
but it's about cultivating, I think, yourself and your network
well in advance of the situationthat you're going to confront.
But of course, the $1,000,000 question that everybody asks,
well, how do you go about doing it?
(04:26):
It's for me, resilience is a function of capacities plus
relationships. So in this changing times, how
does one find the right capacityand the right relationships?
How does one find the edge, especially in compared to other
people and compared to AI actually right?
So valued trade skills, so to speak.
(04:47):
Exactly. And the thing that Ioffer my
students in the past, which I think holds for the future, is
to triangulate between the subject, a region and a
technical skill. And what I mean by that is sort
of the capacities may be specific to a career field as
well as a person's particular family or financial situation.
(05:07):
But one common requirement is always be learning Mahatma
Gandhi. Live as if you were going to die
tomorrow, but learn as if you were going to live forever.
And it's not just about be goingto university and getting a
graduate degree, but it's by learning, by reflecting,
listening, you know, attending as many think tank events,
taking as many internships, evenif they're not in core topic as
(05:31):
possible. The idea being to let yourself
evolve as times also change. But also keeping an ear on what
skills people keep asking you for, because that's probably
what you're better at than a lotof the stuff you're going to
learn. Absolutely right.
What is the job market asking for?
But I think that's where the relationships part comes in.
But on the capacity side of it, the way that I end up framing it
(05:54):
is if you pick a subject that you're really passionate about
and apply it to a region, whether it's North America or
sub-Saharan Africa or the Gulf or South Asia or East Asia or
the Indo Pacific, whatever it is.
So if peace and conflict is my passion, South Asia and Indo
Pacific is the area that I'm really interested in.
(06:14):
And then a technical skill, whether it's to be an analyst or
whether it's to be a lawyer or whether it's to be interested in
sports and sports diplomacy, whether it's to be a coder or a
artificial intelligence, whatever it is to have a
technical skill. Your skill layer.
Exactly right. But the idea being that when you
have those combinations, you mayget a job along one or two of
(06:38):
those areas of expertise. As you graduate over the next 10
years, it's likely that you're going to end up in a position
where you're going to apply for all three of those specialties.
And what are the chances that somebody else at work is going
to have the same kind of specialties?
Probably rare. So that actually makes you
unique and it's that creativity that people will want.
(07:00):
But the added advantage of this is it may also help us be a
little bit of AI proof in the near term anyways because you
are bringing combination of things to the table plus real
world experience that AI may notbe of the duplicate right away.
AI does not extrapolate well, doesn't forecast well because it
(07:20):
doesn't have real world ability to test its ideas.
And that's really the value is tell AI inside robots going
around testing theory. People are going to still need a
job that are creative and bring new ideas and practices into the
world and then apply the AI to show how it models against other
concepts. Yeah.
(07:42):
And one of the challenges that AI will have is the same
challenge that a lot of analystshave had in quantifying conflict
and war. If we're talking about
international relation, is the data sets too small, meaning
that we call these things war and conflict, But each situation
is very, very diverse. Each one is not a perfect
analogy for the next situation. This actually was what the
(08:05):
devil's a lot of policy makers as well, because they're wanting
historical examples to use as analogies to deal with the
current situation, and nothing in history perfectly aligns.
I look for leaders intent or find out what their behavior
patterns are. You can kind of see what's the
driver racial hatred, gaining power for money.
(08:27):
Or is it that this person didn'tcare, but another nation propped
him up, said hey, you want to beruler or do whatever we tell
you? Yeah.
Right. So I get what you're saying, but
we struggle because sometimes weproject onto our or nation
counterparts that are in conflict or preparing for
conflict what we think it shouldbe.
(08:48):
Yeah. And then we model our counter
conflict negotiations or engagements or leverage on that
model and it often pulse flat. Yep.
It's a mirroring bias, isn't it?Oh yeah, Yep.
And it's fundamental to how we end up making mistakes, butting
your head up against the wall. Why don't they see it the same
(09:09):
way that we do? And in the absence of
familiarity, we end up relying on rational actor models when in
reality there are other things that are also driving other
people's decision, even our own decision.
Even across interagencies, we often assume that everybody's
being rational, but in reality they're driven by their
organizational interests, their standard operating procedures or
(09:32):
persons specific policy interests versus individual
interests. They want to make a name for
themselves for the next big promotion and that's driving
them. Or they're actually calculating
trade-offs between different national interests, and they may
not be providing enough insight to you to give you the
understanding of what's binding them to a certain position.
It sounds like your classes go through a lot of these different
(09:56):
windows of thought going to other concepts and how they're
applied as you're working with them on this and you're talking
to them about trade skills versus.
Area Focus. You also mentioned resilience,
but when I heard resilience and you briefly mentioned networks,
I think of it more as. Being.
Prepared for the opportunity. Absolutely.
(10:18):
Sometimes I see resilience as being bulletproof against the
conditions around you, whereas the learner is the first person
to gain the future, but the opportunist is also like there
next to him and I think they're very similar in a lot of ways.
Absolutely. Resilience isn't just surviving
the moment, it is actually preparing yourself to take
(10:39):
advantage of the moment to come out better than you were before.
And so that triangulation of subject region and the technical
skill, that's sort of the capacity part.
I think it's common across a range of social sciences.
The other part of that resilience formula is the
relationships, and these are thenetworks that you're absolutely
(11:00):
talking about. I think in my early 20s,
somebody did tell me this field of political science that
Washington, DC, 40% what you know and 60% who you know.
And I think I ended up doing thereverse of that just because I
love the issue that. Is a balance, but I don't think
it's that heavily weighted. Think it's 40% who you know, 60%
(11:22):
what you know. Because if you show up with who
you know and you can't do the job.
Exactly. But that relationship part is
critically important to what yousaid, to create those moments in
which opportunities do present themselves, and it's people that
end up presenting those opportunities.
Well, the other thing is figuring out how to get people
to connect with you and be real connections.
(11:43):
Not just the sales bots who are people who just clicked and
build up their network so they can say they know 30,000 people
and then sell products through it, but to actually have
substantive connections. Absolutely be ideal is to be
able to work with people becauseat the end of the day, when we
talk about things like relationships and networks, as
you point out, a lot of them canjust be your friends or friends
(12:06):
of friends that you happen to beconnected to.
But it's not necessarily that they trust you enough to put
their reputation and their resources, money literally in
some cases on the line by givingyou an opportunity.
So the key variable here when we're talking about
relationships and networks is trust.
Why should the person trust you and how much should they trust
(12:27):
you? An example of when I came out to
American University for my master's, it was 911 happened.
And it so happened that a formerintelligence community member
was one of my professors. And they said, hey, I know
you're still in the Air Force Reserves and you've got a
clearance. The State Department needs some
(12:49):
help. Do you want to go over?
And he got me an internship there.
So to your point about being at the right time, right place, but
having built expertise in things, becoming trusted, well,
having a. Clearance, that's a trade skill
that's very important around here.
That's. Right.
And having that got me my first taste at the State Department.
(13:11):
Now, at the same time, you always need a plan, and my plan
was eventually to work at the State Department, but it's also
important to take the detours detour.
I ended up taking. Actually it was my second year
of grad school and I actually went up to New York because NGO
initiatives have changed who I had interned with before.
(13:33):
When I was an undergrad. I went through a conflict
resolution program with them in Switzerland and got to know
them. In fact, it was a professor that
was teaching there that actuallybrought me out from California
to do grad school at American University.
Once again, the power of sort ofrelationships and the power of
taking a risk because it was a program on conflict resolution.
(13:54):
And what I was really interestedin was actually nuclear
deterrent strategy, which is sort of a lingering interest of
mine. But my career has really evolved
into being about asymmetric conflict.
This is terrorism, insurgencies,and peacemaking.
So in other words, it's civil and uncivil society is what I've
become sort of an expert at. But all that to say is that that
(14:17):
relationship brought me out to American University of
Washington, DC, where on September 11th, I happened to be
in the right class. I had the trust of my professor
who got me this internship at the State Department that had an
urgent need. And because I was a veteran, I
was still in the Air Force Reserves, and I had that
clearance. They were quick to bring me on
board, but Despite that, I took this position in New York
(14:40):
because it was an opportunity tostart a new office that was
going to be their representationto the UN.
And I worked there for a couple of years and I participated in a
project there that was engaging different parts of the UN.
And over the course of those twoyears, those people got to know
me and trust me. And that's how I ended up as a
consultant and a fellow at the UN for a couple of years.
(15:02):
So once again, it was through actually working and building
that trust. And then after a couple of
years, I ended up taking a year off to finish my dissertation.
I couldn't do it working full time.
And then that's when I applied to the State Department, right?
But. People already knew you there,
which made it a lot easier to get your application through
actually. It was in a completely different
(15:23):
part of the State Department. It was removed for five or six
years, so I didn't even have a reference in the Political
Military Bureau anymore. We lost.
All that heat. Lost all that heat and it's a
great point that you can make because I did not do a good job
of keeping those relationships because at state, like in many
places, people move all the time, but you're in their memory
if you can keep it fresh and if you can keep it connected and.
(15:45):
Also, on your resume have in that state time probably did
make a difference even though you came in cold.
Excellent point because I think people are often choosy about
where they want to take an internship because they
envisioned themselves working there.
That's not the point. The point is to get your foot in
the door to build those relationships and get exposure
(16:08):
to things that you may never work again but will certainly
inform you and your work in the future no matter what you do.
So I am a fan of broad experiences because I have seen
a difference at the policy making table at the State
Department and in the NSC where you have people coming right out
(16:28):
of school with little field experience.
You can also tell the differencebetween people who have served
in other places who have understood the field they have.
Scars they have. Scars exactly right and they
bring a different perspective and it's a valuable perspective
plus. They handle stress differently,
they handle people differently. But is there any other thoughts
(16:49):
on your triangle of skills and knowledge?
Yeah. They talked about resilience in
terms of capacities and relationship, talked about the
uncertainty of becoming foreign policy environment, but then
embracing that uncertainty. Anything else that would help?
Yeah. Go far into the field when we're
(17:10):
talking about international affairs, whether it's a local
community organization that's doing related, kind of like if
you're working on a farm, farm related issues that does have a
relationship with our international relations on
agricultural issues. It's about framing it.
So any kind of a experience is applicable.
(17:31):
It's a matter of framing. The other option is to go
overseas if you can afford it and get that field experience
and hopefully your interest is in a place where the cost of
living is cheap enough for you to be able to afford or for them
to be able to afford you. It's not just about Washington.
You can get international relations experience anywhere in
the country. It ends up becoming how you end
(17:53):
up framing that experience and its relevance to international
relations or going overseas. I've.
Known people who did internshipsin Africa for NGOs which was
excellent. Also I was talking to someone
about options for foreign policy, national relationships
(18:14):
and I said hey, start researching these multinational
organizations like OECD or ASEANor ECO WAS.
They'll have conferences. Attend.
The conferences that. Means that you're involved,
you're a delegate, and pretty soon that will build up your
resume as well. Yeah.
Be open to detours. Work with a plan that allow for
(18:36):
flexibility. I think President Eisenhower
said. Plans are worthless, but
planning is everything because it gives you a goal to strive to
but be open to detours. Until you get punched in the
face. Oh no.
That was Mike Tyson. Mike Jason.
That was Mike. Well, it's an even better one,
right? John Lennon?
I like the one that John Lennon has.
It's just life is what happens when you're busy making other
(18:56):
plans. So between Eisenhower, John
Lennon and Mike Tyson, there is some valuable guidance here.
But cool, unless you have something else you want to add,
I think this was a solid interview in terms.
Of because the environment is changing so fast, I focused a
lot of my thinking and comments on resilience and we mostly
(19:18):
talked about professional resilience, but it is built on
emotional, mental and financial resilience.
My approach to that, I've sort of re expanded my meaning.
Your family. If you put time and energy into
nurturing the cousins and friends as if they were your
nuclear family, I think you'll find all of a sudden that you
have a community supporting you because they'll feel like you
(19:40):
have their back as well. This is about resilience and
thinking creatively. Well, terrific.
I appreciate it. Fantastic.
Thanks, Jack. Thanks for listening.
If you get a chance, please likeand subscribe and rate the show
on your favorite podcast platform.
Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an
episode, e-mail us at ca.podcasting@gmail.com.
(20:04):
I'll have the e-mail and CA Association website in the show
notes. And now, most importantly, to
those currently out in the field, working with a partner
nation's people or leadership toforward US relations, thank you
all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host.
Stay tuned for more great episodes one CA podcast.
Welcome to the ONE CA podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines.
ONE CA is a product of the CivilAffairs Association and brings
in people who are current or former military diplomats,
development officers, and field agents to discuss their
experiences on ground with a partner nation's people and
leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone
interested in working the last three feet of Foreign Relations.
(00:27):
To contact the show, e-mail us at ca.podcasting@gmail.com or
look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at
www.dubbacivilaffairsassoci.org.I'll have those in the show
notes. Please welcome Vasu Vaitla, a
Georgetown adjacent professor ofinternational affairs and
experience in making foreign policy, directing capacity
(00:48):
building programs and in intelligence analysis.
He has worked at the US Department of State, United
Nations and the NGO Initiatives of Change.
Basu has also served at the US Air Force and has a PhD in
global affairs, a master's in international politics and a
bachelor's in political science.I've been teaching at Georgetown
(01:10):
for five or six years as an adjunct assistant professor on
theory and practice of International Security in the
School of Foreign Services Security Studies program.
What I was bringing to the students was a practitioner's
view and linking it to theory. But honestly, some of the
discussions in class ended up informing some of the briefings
that I did at State. There's one story that I share
(01:31):
with the students in which two days before a briefing that I
had to Secretary Blinken, we were talking about the
democratic peace theory, and that discussion actually changed
the way that I framed it to Secretary Blinken.
Of course, you don't talk theoryto principals, even if they're
very heady and very interested in it.
But when the issues of democracydid come up, the discussions in
(01:54):
class certainly inform how I ended up presenting it.
Because you've seen it from the military standpoint, you've seen
it from the NGO standpoint, you've seen it from the
diplomatic standpoint. Exactly.
Before I came to state, I workeda couple years at the United
Nations, worked a couple of years in a international, a non
government organization, a peacebuilding organizational called
(02:16):
Initiatives of Change. And I also had about 10 years of
experience in the US Air Force, 5 active duty, couple of years
in the California Air National Guard, and a couple of years in
the Air Force. So it's the sum total of all
those different kinds of experiences in public, in semi
public institutions that ends upinforming how international
(02:38):
theory actually unfolds in practice and how practice is
actually happens. I'm actually going into the next
semester thinking about how do Iactually frame all the changes
that are happening right now, changes that even scholars are
trying to make sense out of. And what's changing is not only
the way US foreign policy is conducted, that is, whether
(03:01):
we're going to choose retrenchment or internationalism
as a grand strategy, but it's also about the global system.
Is this transitioning to a clarity in which the United
States retains its position, or is it a unit polarity organized
under China that's uncertain? Is it going to be a bipolar
system between the US and China or will it transition to a multi
(03:23):
polar system across countries onvarious issues?
So there's a lot of really uncertain time.
And so the big caveat being thatskills of the past may or may
not match future demands. So what am I going to convey to
the students coming into this class?
And I think there is a way to prepare for the uncertainty.
(03:44):
I'm thinking about Maya Angelou.I think she said something to
the effect of you may not control all the events, but you
can decide not to be reduced by them.
And it is about embracing that uncertainty.
And a key part of this is what Eric Hoffer, the American
philosopher, said about dealing with complexity in a time of
drastic change. It's the learners who inherit
(04:06):
the future. So this is about how one moves
through uncertainty. And at the end of the day, for
me, that's about resilience, notjust reacting to uncertainty,
but it's about cultivating, I think, yourself and your network
well in advance of the situationthat you're going to confront.
But of course, the $1,000,000 question that everybody asks,
well, how do you go about doing it?
(04:26):
It's for me, resilience is a function of capacities plus
relationships. So in this changing times, how
does one find the right capacityand the right relationships?
How does one find the edge, especially in compared to other
people and compared to AI actually right?
So valued trade skills, so to speak.
(04:47):
Exactly. And the thing that Ioffer my
students in the past, which I think holds for the future, is
to triangulate between the subject, a region and a
technical skill. And what I mean by that is sort
of the capacities may be specific to a career field as
well as a person's particular family or financial situation.
(05:07):
But one common requirement is always be learning Mahatma
Gandhi. Live as if you were going to die
tomorrow, but learn as if you were going to live forever.
And it's not just about be goingto university and getting a
graduate degree, but it's by learning, by reflecting,
listening, you know, attending as many think tank events,
taking as many internships, evenif they're not in core topic as
(05:31):
possible. The idea being to let yourself
evolve as times also change. But also keeping an ear on what
skills people keep asking you for, because that's probably
what you're better at than a lotof the stuff you're going to
learn. Absolutely right.
What is the job market asking for?
But I think that's where the relationships part comes in.
But on the capacity side of it, the way that I end up framing it
(05:54):
is if you pick a subject that you're really passionate about
and apply it to a region, whether it's North America or
sub-Saharan Africa or the Gulf or South Asia or East Asia or
the Indo Pacific, whatever it is.
So if peace and conflict is my passion, South Asia and Indo
Pacific is the area that I'm really interested in.
(06:14):
And then a technical skill, whether it's to be an analyst or
whether it's to be a lawyer or whether it's to be interested in
sports and sports diplomacy, whether it's to be a coder or a
artificial intelligence, whatever it is to have a
technical skill. Your skill layer.
Exactly right. But the idea being that when you
have those combinations, you mayget a job along one or two of
(06:38):
those areas of expertise. As you graduate over the next 10
years, it's likely that you're going to end up in a position
where you're going to apply for all three of those specialties.
And what are the chances that somebody else at work is going
to have the same kind of specialties?
Probably rare. So that actually makes you
unique and it's that creativity that people will want.
(07:00):
But the added advantage of this is it may also help us be a
little bit of AI proof in the near term anyways because you
are bringing combination of things to the table plus real
world experience that AI may notbe of the duplicate right away.
AI does not extrapolate well, doesn't forecast well because it
(07:20):
doesn't have real world ability to test its ideas.
And that's really the value is tell AI inside robots going
around testing theory. People are going to still need a
job that are creative and bring new ideas and practices into the
world and then apply the AI to show how it models against other
concepts. Yeah.
(07:42):
And one of the challenges that AI will have is the same
challenge that a lot of analystshave had in quantifying conflict
and war. If we're talking about
international relation, is the data sets too small, meaning
that we call these things war and conflict, But each situation
is very, very diverse. Each one is not a perfect
analogy for the next situation. This actually was what the
(08:05):
devil's a lot of policy makers as well, because they're wanting
historical examples to use as analogies to deal with the
current situation, and nothing in history perfectly aligns.
I look for leaders intent or find out what their behavior
patterns are. You can kind of see what's the
driver racial hatred, gaining power for money.
(08:27):
Or is it that this person didn'tcare, but another nation propped
him up, said hey, you want to beruler or do whatever we tell
you? Yeah.
Right. So I get what you're saying, but
we struggle because sometimes weproject onto our or nation
counterparts that are in conflict or preparing for
conflict what we think it shouldbe.
(08:48):
Yeah. And then we model our counter
conflict negotiations or engagements or leverage on that
model and it often pulse flat. Yep.
It's a mirroring bias, isn't it?Oh yeah, Yep.
And it's fundamental to how we end up making mistakes, butting
your head up against the wall. Why don't they see it the same
(09:09):
way that we do? And in the absence of
familiarity, we end up relying on rational actor models when in
reality there are other things that are also driving other
people's decision, even our own decision.
Even across interagencies, we often assume that everybody's
being rational, but in reality they're driven by their
organizational interests, their standard operating procedures or
(09:32):
persons specific policy interests versus individual
interests. They want to make a name for
themselves for the next big promotion and that's driving
them. Or they're actually calculating
trade-offs between different national interests, and they may
not be providing enough insight to you to give you the
understanding of what's binding them to a certain position.
It sounds like your classes go through a lot of these different
(09:56):
windows of thought going to other concepts and how they're
applied as you're working with them on this and you're talking
to them about trade skills versus.
Area Focus. You also mentioned resilience,
but when I heard resilience and you briefly mentioned networks,
I think of it more as. Being.
Prepared for the opportunity. Absolutely.
(10:18):
Sometimes I see resilience as being bulletproof against the
conditions around you, whereas the learner is the first person
to gain the future, but the opportunist is also like there
next to him and I think they're very similar in a lot of ways.
Absolutely. Resilience isn't just surviving
the moment, it is actually preparing yourself to take
(10:39):
advantage of the moment to come out better than you were before.
And so that triangulation of subject region and the technical
skill, that's sort of the capacity part.
I think it's common across a range of social sciences.
The other part of that resilience formula is the
relationships, and these are thenetworks that you're absolutely
(11:00):
talking about. I think in my early 20s,
somebody did tell me this field of political science that
Washington, DC, 40% what you know and 60% who you know.
And I think I ended up doing thereverse of that just because I
love the issue that. Is a balance, but I don't think
it's that heavily weighted. Think it's 40% who you know, 60%
(11:22):
what you know. Because if you show up with who
you know and you can't do the job.
Exactly. But that relationship part is
critically important to what yousaid, to create those moments in
which opportunities do present themselves, and it's people that
end up presenting those opportunities.
Well, the other thing is figuring out how to get people
to connect with you and be real connections.
(11:43):
Not just the sales bots who are people who just clicked and
build up their network so they can say they know 30,000 people
and then sell products through it, but to actually have
substantive connections. Absolutely be ideal is to be
able to work with people becauseat the end of the day, when we
talk about things like relationships and networks, as
you point out, a lot of them canjust be your friends or friends
(12:06):
of friends that you happen to beconnected to.
But it's not necessarily that they trust you enough to put
their reputation and their resources, money literally in
some cases on the line by givingyou an opportunity.
So the key variable here when we're talking about
relationships and networks is trust.
Why should the person trust you and how much should they trust
(12:27):
you? An example of when I came out to
American University for my master's, it was 911 happened.
And it so happened that a formerintelligence community member
was one of my professors. And they said, hey, I know
you're still in the Air Force Reserves and you've got a
clearance. The State Department needs some
(12:49):
help. Do you want to go over?
And he got me an internship there.
So to your point about being at the right time, right place, but
having built expertise in things, becoming trusted, well,
having a. Clearance, that's a trade skill
that's very important around here.
That's. Right.
And having that got me my first taste at the State Department.
(13:11):
Now, at the same time, you always need a plan, and my plan
was eventually to work at the State Department, but it's also
important to take the detours detour.
I ended up taking. Actually it was my second year
of grad school and I actually went up to New York because NGO
initiatives have changed who I had interned with before.
(13:33):
When I was an undergrad. I went through a conflict
resolution program with them in Switzerland and got to know
them. In fact, it was a professor that
was teaching there that actuallybrought me out from California
to do grad school at American University.
Once again, the power of sort ofrelationships and the power of
taking a risk because it was a program on conflict resolution.
(13:54):
And what I was really interestedin was actually nuclear
deterrent strategy, which is sort of a lingering interest of
mine. But my career has really evolved
into being about asymmetric conflict.
This is terrorism, insurgencies,and peacemaking.
So in other words, it's civil and uncivil society is what I've
become sort of an expert at. But all that to say is that that
(14:17):
relationship brought me out to American University of
Washington, DC, where on September 11th, I happened to be
in the right class. I had the trust of my professor
who got me this internship at the State Department that had an
urgent need. And because I was a veteran, I
was still in the Air Force Reserves, and I had that
clearance. They were quick to bring me on
board, but Despite that, I took this position in New York
(14:40):
because it was an opportunity tostart a new office that was
going to be their representationto the UN.
And I worked there for a couple of years and I participated in a
project there that was engaging different parts of the UN.
And over the course of those twoyears, those people got to know
me and trust me. And that's how I ended up as a
consultant and a fellow at the UN for a couple of years.
(15:02):
So once again, it was through actually working and building
that trust. And then after a couple of
years, I ended up taking a year off to finish my dissertation.
I couldn't do it working full time.
And then that's when I applied to the State Department, right?
But. People already knew you there,
which made it a lot easier to get your application through
actually. It was in a completely different
(15:23):
part of the State Department. It was removed for five or six
years, so I didn't even have a reference in the Political
Military Bureau anymore. We lost.
All that heat. Lost all that heat and it's a
great point that you can make because I did not do a good job
of keeping those relationships because at state, like in many
places, people move all the time, but you're in their memory
if you can keep it fresh and if you can keep it connected and.
(15:45):
Also, on your resume have in that state time probably did
make a difference even though you came in cold.
Excellent point because I think people are often choosy about
where they want to take an internship because they
envisioned themselves working there.
That's not the point. The point is to get your foot in
the door to build those relationships and get exposure
(16:08):
to things that you may never work again but will certainly
inform you and your work in the future no matter what you do.
So I am a fan of broad experiences because I have seen
a difference at the policy making table at the State
Department and in the NSC where you have people coming right out
(16:28):
of school with little field experience.
You can also tell the differencebetween people who have served
in other places who have understood the field they have.
Scars they have. Scars exactly right and they
bring a different perspective and it's a valuable perspective
plus. They handle stress differently,
they handle people differently. But is there any other thoughts
(16:49):
on your triangle of skills and knowledge?
Yeah. They talked about resilience in
terms of capacities and relationship, talked about the
uncertainty of becoming foreign policy environment, but then
embracing that uncertainty. Anything else that would help?
Yeah. Go far into the field when we're
(17:10):
talking about international affairs, whether it's a local
community organization that's doing related, kind of like if
you're working on a farm, farm related issues that does have a
relationship with our international relations on
agricultural issues. It's about framing it.
So any kind of a experience is applicable.
(17:31):
It's a matter of framing. The other option is to go
overseas if you can afford it and get that field experience
and hopefully your interest is in a place where the cost of
living is cheap enough for you to be able to afford or for them
to be able to afford you. It's not just about Washington.
You can get international relations experience anywhere in
the country. It ends up becoming how you end
(17:53):
up framing that experience and its relevance to international
relations or going overseas. I've.
Known people who did internshipsin Africa for NGOs which was
excellent. Also I was talking to someone
about options for foreign policy, national relationships
(18:14):
and I said hey, start researching these multinational
organizations like OECD or ASEANor ECO WAS.
They'll have conferences. Attend.
The conferences that. Means that you're involved,
you're a delegate, and pretty soon that will build up your
resume as well. Yeah.
Be open to detours. Work with a plan that allow for
(18:36):
flexibility. I think President Eisenhower
said. Plans are worthless, but
planning is everything because it gives you a goal to strive to
but be open to detours. Until you get punched in the
face. Oh no.
That was Mike Tyson. Mike Jason.
That was Mike. Well, it's an even better one,
right? John Lennon?
I like the one that John Lennon has.
It's just life is what happens when you're busy making other
(18:56):
plans. So between Eisenhower, John
Lennon and Mike Tyson, there is some valuable guidance here.
But cool, unless you have something else you want to add,
I think this was a solid interview in terms.
Of because the environment is changing so fast, I focused a
lot of my thinking and comments on resilience and we mostly
(19:18):
talked about professional resilience, but it is built on
emotional, mental and financial resilience.
My approach to that, I've sort of re expanded my meaning.
Your family. If you put time and energy into
nurturing the cousins and friends as if they were your
nuclear family, I think you'll find all of a sudden that you
have a community supporting you because they'll feel like you
(19:40):
have their back as well. This is about resilience and
thinking creatively. Well, terrific.
I appreciate it. Fantastic.
Thanks, Jack. Thanks for listening.
If you get a chance, please likeand subscribe and rate the show
on your favorite podcast platform.
Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an
episode, e-mail us at ca.podcasting@gmail.com.
(20:04):
I'll have the e-mail and CA Association website in the show
notes. And now, most importantly, to
those currently out in the field, working with a partner
nation's people or leadership toforward US relations, thank you
all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host.
Stay tuned for more great episodes one CA podcast.
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