October 21, 2025 • 20 mins
In this episode of the One CA Podcast, host Danny Joseph sits down with Natacha Ciezki, a foreign affairs consultant and Civil Affairs officer, to explore the critical role of cultural understanding in African engagements.
Drawing from her extensive experience across Sub-Saharan Africa, Natacha shares insights on how local context, historical nuance, and relationship-building shape effective foreign policy and civil affairs operations.
Whether you're a practitioner, policymaker, or curious listener, this conversation offers a compelling look at why cultural fluency isn’t just a soft skill—it’s a strategic necessity
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One CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at CApodcasting@gmail.com, or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www.civilaffairsassoc.org
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Feedspot, the podcast industry ranking system, rated One CA Podcast as one of the top 10 shows on foreign policy. Check it out at: https://podcast.feedspot.com/foreign_policy_podcasts/
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Special Thanks to Ekler for the sample of Polo and Pan from the album Canopee. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5IruTV-LGQ&list=RDf5IruTV-LGQ&start_radio=1
---#africanengagements #civilaffairs #foreignpolicy #strategiccommunication #culturalintelligence #subSaharanAfrica #OneCAPodcast #USStateDepartment #localcontextmatters #publicdiplomacy #crossculturalstrategy #natachaciezki #dannyjoseph #militarydiplomacy #softpower #foreignaffairsofficer #geopolitics #relationshipbuilding #fieldinsights #globalstrategy #ECOWAS
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Hey everybody, I am Danny Zaya Joseph.
Welcome to the One CA Podcast. I'll be your host today.
I'm really excited to introduce a guest and a friend of mine,
Natasha Cieski. She's a governance strategist
and interdisciplinary national security practitioner.
She's got an amazing background,check this out, 14 years of
experience spanning the US Army,Homeland Security, Department of
(00:28):
State. And as if that's not cool
enough, she has a Juris Dr. in international law and APHD in
foreign policy, a doctor and a lawyer on this podcast.
Amazing. And on top of all of this, the
icing on the cake, she's worked in over 20 African countries.
So Natasha, I am stoked to talk to you.
(00:49):
Thank you so much for letting meinterview you.
Thank you for having me. When I was at basic training, I
met this guy from the French Congo.
His name is Moses and he became one of my best friends.
He he taught me some French as well because he said in the
French Congo, he said we speak the most Parisian French.
There's a several guys there from different African countries
came out to me. He's like, Joseph, don't learn
(01:11):
French from any other African here.
Learn only from me because I'll teach you the appropriate
dialect. So here's a funny guy, great
dude. And one thing he told me is when
he spoke with the African American kids who grew up in
like here in the United States, he told me that there was this
tension that he felt in being misunderstood because he said,
(01:33):
yes, I have the same skin color as them.
But when I speak to them, I can feel that there's this kind of
let down that I don't get along with them like they would
expect. And he said I feel a little bit
like, out of place and made him feel isolated.
And so I've felt similar feelings myself growing up, just
even with my own, like, Middle Eastern cousins who are saying
(01:54):
like, hey, you don't act like us.
You act more like you're Americanized or you're not true
to your roots. And there's this sort of
judgement. So when it comes to that kind of
perception within our own cultures and amongst ourselves,
how do you handle that? I experienced it myself.
When I go to sub-Saharan Africa,which is where I'm originally
from, there is a disconnect because I was raised in the
(02:18):
biracial multicultural home. So sometimes I will be told that
I'm acting way more European andthen I go to Europe and then now
I'm acting more African in certain ways, or I'm acting more
American because I am too Americanized.
And I think that it goes both ways is like me as a person.
I have to embrace that because it is the truth.
(02:40):
It's true that there is a difference.
It's true that there is a disconnect.
And I think that the person alsoin identifying that or observing
that also has to take a step back and be like, it's not a bad
thing either. Humility is really what goes a
long way. Entering the space with saying,
hey, this is not about me. It's about the person in front
(03:01):
of me. I am going to choose peace above
everything else. There are a lot of things that
this person does not know about me, and there are a lot of
things that I don't know about this person.
And we don't have to get along either, but we at least have to
give each other dignity and growfrom it so much.
Just having a conversation. We might not be the same
religion, the same color, same brain gang, or we might be from
(03:24):
the same place but have lived truth and realities that are
completely different. And that's completely OK.
Like that's what makes the worlda beautiful place is all our
differences. Humans want to get along.
We're social by nature, but to embrace those differences and
use them as a strength is clearly perceived in how you
conduct yourself. And I think it speaks to your
(03:44):
ability to cross boundaries, a lot of boundaries that would
keep other people out. You're able to move almost
permeably on both sides of it and see multiple perspectives
and carry those perspectives andcommunicate with people in a way
that is very validating for them.
I really appreciate that becausemy situation or my journey is
(04:06):
not necessarily unique. Like I'm sure that there are a
lot of people even within an organization that have probably
experience similar just pathways.
But it's like it takes a long time to get comfortable and come
to your own skin. But when you are always the
other you, I think, develop this, I guess we can call it a
sixth sense of reading the room very fast.
(04:30):
And I'm not talking about watching people's behavior.
I can literally sense an energy shift as I'm walking in.
People don't have to say anything.
They don't even have to necessarily look at me.
But I can feel it. And of course, I look very
different, right? First of all, I'm 61, so it's
not like I can't really go underthe radar.
But because of that, I think that that was a certain point in
(04:52):
my life where I had to decide, OK, am I going to continue this
pursuit of trying to fit in? Or am I just going to be myself
and brace who I am? And then just turn all these
differences into qualities and assets and then things that now
I can tap into and become just needed assets and whatever space
(05:13):
that I'm coming in. So it's like I speak multiple
languages. I have been all over the world.
I have a certain acumen that noteverybody have been able to
develop the way that I have. Well, let me use that and put it
at the service of whatever mission that it is that I
believe in. So I think that that confidence
that you're talking about, that strength, it was definitely a
work in progress for a long time.
(05:35):
But it's definitely freeing and definitely rewarding to be able
to fully embrace it because it helps a lot of people.
There's nothing that makes me feel more fuzzy on the inside
than being able to step into a room where I can tell that
people are maybe getting frustrated or they just hurting
because they feel like nobody ishearing them or seeing them.
(05:57):
And they kind of need that validation and to walk in and be
able to give that to another human being, whether it is one
or a group of people, That to meis always a win.
So when you talk about operationalizing cultural
intelligence, can you expand on the pain point that you
recognized and that you wanted to address?
(06:20):
Africa is a region of the world that is unlike any other.
There is a lot of, I would say, nuances and complexities and
particularly because you have 50plus countries, things are just
always different. And so it makes it strategically
difficult because you cannot come up with a blanket strategy
for the entire continent. We have to dig deep like look
(06:43):
into ethnicities, look into tribal dynamics, look into the
position of the elders of the religious leaders, etc.
So when we read into just data and we just have had this
repeated history of falling short, when we don't look into
the cultures of those countries.And when I look at doctrines and
(07:05):
even the way that we plan our missions is like cultures seem
to be a set aside, like an afterthought.
Where is the way that I look at it is that it should be the
start. It should be at the root of
everything that we do, especially in the African space.
And when I go out and I teach about African culture, I talk to
people about colonization, and that's somehow a topic that is
(07:29):
like really sensitive. And I think that is because
probably of the history of our own country and the way that we
perceive also colonial times. And we try to detach ourselves
as much as we can from that partof history.
But I think that is very important, again, to have that
conversation, like look at how things were prior to
colonization coming through. Then look at how colonial powers
(07:54):
split them, because a lot of tribes get split in different
pieces amongst those colonial boundaries.
For example, I come from the Luba tribe.
Well, believe it or not, the DRC, the border splits my tribe
in half. So my family, we speak Chaluba
in the French, but the other part of the tribe is in Angola.
(08:15):
So they speak Portuguese. They dance different dances, but
we all look alike. So those are things are
important to know because there are wounds associated with that.
There are things that those tribes carry that if you just
read how the laws have been implemented or just about the
system which was brought by the Belgians in the DRC, for
(08:38):
example, you are going to miss all of that.
So that's the reason why I made a conscious decision to write
more about it, to talk more about it, to create Cultural
Intelligence Strategy LLC, to bemore of that voice of saying,
hey, you're missing out on so much.
And those are critical things that especially a civil affairs
(08:59):
forces, we need to know in orderto be successful at whatever it
is that we do, which is literally to embed ourselves
into local populations. So any tips or tricks that
you've developed that you want to see manifested more in this
career field? What have you come up with in
some dicey situations that have allowed you to breakthrough
(09:19):
where others haven't? I'm sure you have some keen
advice on just especially and ifyou want to talk about gender
roles as well, because we're nottalking just cultures, we're
talking to you as a woman cominginto these areas as well.
Is there something you've dealt with, whether it's tone of
voice, your approach to people? I mean, there's, so there's, I
know this is a very complex question, but is there anything
(09:39):
that comes to mind that you said, hey, you know what, that
was actually really beneficial. I need to do that more and
implement that more. When I started witnessing a lot
of those gap coming from the word that I I did or that I do
in the government was actually when I was part of the
peacekeeping training in Mauritania.
(09:59):
At the time, it was the African Contingency Operations training
and assistance to teach human rights.
The Moritanya is actually an Islamic Republic, and that was
my first experience in an Islamic country.
I didn't really know what to expect, but I had prepared
myself just like any U.S. Army soldier would prepare
(10:21):
themselves. So I read about the place of a
woman and in a country like that, what to expect, whether I
need to cover my hair and, you know, the basics of how to greet
people. Had not to offend people.
And what I realized is that whenI get there, none of that theory
really mattered. What really went a long way was
(10:43):
just me being authentic. And I think that we forget that.
Just take the person in front ofyou for who they are, but you
show yourself as who you are too, right.
So perhaps sometimes it just demonstrate that you don't
really know who you are. I don't know, I can presume all
day, but I think that it starts there just being more authentic.
(11:03):
So that was like my first key take away.
Like Natasha, just be you walk in there and then if you have
something in common, say it. Oh my gosh, how many kids do you
have? Oh, I have three.
I'll be like, I have 3-2. Would you have boys, girl?
I have three boys. I have 3 girls.
Oh, it's so natural, like you can talk about so many things,
(11:25):
you don't have to belong to the same world and it doesn't really
matter your rank, especially like now serving as a 30 year
golf. I think that is something that
we are fighting also. But I think that it's like
sometimes when it's necessary, don't be afraid to just speak up
because you have the power to make things better more often
than not. But I think that it's also like
(11:45):
group effort as an organization,like we all really have to 1st
internally come together in order to make things happen when
we are out of our own boundaries.
There's so much keen insight there.
I love jiu jitsu because it helps us on the mats to
challenge our own egos and our own especially like you said,
with the posturing, because that's, that's a primal
response, right? That's a psychological state of
(12:06):
defensiveness. Could be anger, could be a lot
of fear really. I mean, anger could be a
secondary emotion to the fear ofbeing either attacked, fear of
being misunderstood. But a lot of it could just
simply be a perceived threat. Whereas you come in and could
say, look, you're tense over this, but that's not what's
happening. There's a sub context here.
Let me clear that up. And just simply by addressing
it, by labeling it, we learn that in psychology by reframing
(12:28):
it, a lot of that tension will just immediately dissipate
because the brain will then say,oh, okay, my radar system is
really jacked up right now and the the smoke alarms going off
in my brain, but there's no fire.
And so to tell someone that and recenter them then creates
meaningful dialogue. And it's cool that you did that.
Being intentional and being selfaware and also being humble
(12:50):
enough to listen to the people that sometimes can pick up on
things that you are not necessarily realizing.
I've been in situations where I'm understanding my environment
a certain way and then someone else comes in and be like, well,
the reality might not actually be what you perceive.
And then they give you that little background story or that
(13:11):
little piece of information thatyou missed or whatever the case
may be, or body language that you actually did not pick up on
because you're not fully familiar with the culture and
what that actually means. I mean, even I mentioned to you,
I'm a revert, right? So Islam for me was something
very foreign. And it's like what I understand
years after reverting is completely different from what I
(13:33):
thought I knew being a product of primarily like Europe and
America. It's like, Oh my gosh, like I
never understood actually what Islam was about.
And it's just amazing that into the psychology of people and the
undercurrent of why do they act the way that they do?
Why do they make the decisions that they make?
(13:54):
It's just absolutely fascinatingto me.
I would kind of boil down the thesis to your approach to life,
if I could simplify that ways. I'm hearing a lot of challenge
presumptions, but also stay curious, like do both at the
same time. It's kind of a dual prong
approach. So rather than allow someone's
preconceptions or biases or whatever to to stop
(14:15):
conversation, I feel like you doa good job of wanting to
challenge presumptions and go inthere kind of with a clean
slate. Again, going back to that
concept of objectivity, but at the same time doing it with a
sense of curiosity, which I think is a fun way of doing life
really because it's you don't have an agenda.
You're just, there's a sense of openness of, hey, let's let me
look at this and not come at it with a preconceived toolkit of
(14:40):
how I'm going to address this kind of that saying that if all
you have is a hammer, everything's a nail.
And I think you have a fun approach of attacking these
problem sets. Thank you.
I don't ever come out of the house being like, well, I am
going to just talk to one personand here are all the things I
would like to find out about them.
(15:00):
Like that's not how I operate. I just remain open, genuinely
curious. I try not to force anything.
I'm comfortable with silence. You have to get comfortable with
silence. Sometimes there's just nothing
to say. Don't fill the silence.
I think that Africa is perfect to practice those skills and
identify weaknesses because it'slike, I don't know what it is
(15:23):
about. Like the African community, like
people can really smell a lack of authenticity from like miles
away. So I can't even pretend when I'm
over there is either I'm it or I'm not.
If I'm having a bad day, I can'tlie about it.
I just say I'm having a bad day and then someone will say, why
are you having a bad day? The sun is out, the sky is blue.
(15:43):
We have something to eat, something to drink.
Like, there's a lot to be grateful for, and then you laugh
and you keep it on. And that could be a stranger,
right? So yeah, truly remaining open to
that people sense when you are not being genuine about things.
So yeah, I think that is important.
It's just human beings doing life, but as civil affairs
professionals even more. Yeah, very well said.
(16:07):
And as we're we're kind of coming to a close here.
One thing I wanted to say, it's a lot of what you've done, a lot
of your accomplishments clearly comes from the work you've done
personally and privately going back to your roots, going back
to who you were as a young child, noticing your differences
and how you look and your different cultures in the
biracial background and all of that.
(16:27):
So I think yourself work, what you've done privately in your
own life has manifested kind of harvest of fruit, if you will,
that you can gain in a professional arena as well.
But it started with everything you did as your younger self.
And this is coming from my experience too, because as we
overcome our own insecurities, our fears, our uncertainties,
(16:48):
that then becomes our superpowerreally.
And I guess I would ask you, what's your advice to people who
find themselves in a place wherethey're uncomfortable with their
differences? They're they don't know how to
approach life or how to reconcile so many different
scripts that are playing in their mind.
What would you say? And again, I'm assuming it's
going to speak to authenticity, but to those who might feel
(17:10):
alone listening to this right now and who want to have that
confidence and that comfort thatyou have now with themselves,
what's your advice to them? Oh that's a deep question.
I think that there is no real blanket, one-size-fits-all
answer, but I would say that something that you can find in
common amongst people that exudethat confidence or poise or
(17:34):
strength, I think that we were able to take a step back.
When you humble yourself, you become truer not to others, but
to yourself. First identify at what point
does it start to make your stomach feel unsettled?
Or when you start like sweating a little bit or you feel that
nervousness and anxiety about own self and sit there for a
(17:57):
second, like try to identify where is that coming from?
Why do you feel this way? Are there any specific moments
when you feel that way and just identify it and start like
calling it into what it is and knowing yourself 1st?
And I think that in order to do that and do the work that we do
and just be a good human being, you have to start from a place
(18:18):
of humility. Otherwise, you not only do a
disservice to others, but you really do a disservice to
yourself. Beautifully said.
I love that. And one thing I'll say in
closing is what you just offeredup is something that doesn't
rely on having on being a lawyerand a doctor and having all that
education. It's you make it so approachable
(18:39):
and achievable and simple for people that may even look at
your educational background and say I can't achieve that.
I don't have that much knowledgeor academic prowess and what
not, and it's so cool to know that at the heart of it, and
again, this speaks to your passion, it's a very human
element. It's a universal human element
that traverses all these different boundaries in life.
(18:59):
So I just want to say thank you for leading with that.
I think that's a really powerfulapproach because anybody can
grasp it. It's not hidden, it's not
esoteric. It's something that all people
are are capable of utilizing andimplementing in their lives.
Thank you so much. I'm a firm believer that you
attract your tribe and I see thesame qualities in you.
So I think that it was not by coincidence that we connected.
(19:22):
So I definitely appreciate you even making the time to chat
with me on something that I'm super passionate about.
Super rad conversation. It's your second time on the One
CA podcast. And with that, let this
conversation come to a close. I appreciate your kind words.
It's great meeting you and getting to just see you in
practice, putting this all out there in the world.
And with that, all of a tool setto approach the world and solve
(19:44):
other problems on a global scale.
So thanks for all the work that you do.
Thank you, Dan. Thanks folks.
Thanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like
and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast
platform. Also, if you're interested in
coming on the show or hosting anepisode, e-mail us at
californiapodcasting@gmail.com. I'll have the e-mail and
(20:07):
California Association website in the show notes.
And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field
working with a partner, nation'speople or leadership, US
relations. Thank you all for what you're
doing. This is Jack, your host.
Stay tuned for more great episodes one CA podcast.
Hey everybody, I am Danny Zaya Joseph.
Welcome to the One CA Podcast. I'll be your host today.
I'm really excited to introduce a guest and a friend of mine,
Natasha Cieski. She's a governance strategist
and interdisciplinary national security practitioner.
She's got an amazing background,check this out, 14 years of
experience spanning the US Army,Homeland Security, Department of
(00:28):
State. And as if that's not cool
enough, she has a Juris Dr. in international law and APHD in
foreign policy, a doctor and a lawyer on this podcast.
Amazing. And on top of all of this, the
icing on the cake, she's worked in over 20 African countries.
So Natasha, I am stoked to talk to you.
(00:49):
Thank you so much for letting meinterview you.
Thank you for having me. When I was at basic training, I
met this guy from the French Congo.
His name is Moses and he became one of my best friends.
He he taught me some French as well because he said in the
French Congo, he said we speak the most Parisian French.
There's a several guys there from different African countries
came out to me. He's like, Joseph, don't learn
(01:11):
French from any other African here.
Learn only from me because I'll teach you the appropriate
dialect. So here's a funny guy, great
dude. And one thing he told me is when
he spoke with the African American kids who grew up in
like here in the United States, he told me that there was this
tension that he felt in being misunderstood because he said,
(01:33):
yes, I have the same skin color as them.
But when I speak to them, I can feel that there's this kind of
let down that I don't get along with them like they would
expect. And he said I feel a little bit
like, out of place and made him feel isolated.
And so I've felt similar feelings myself growing up, just
even with my own, like, Middle Eastern cousins who are saying
(01:54):
like, hey, you don't act like us.
You act more like you're Americanized or you're not true
to your roots. And there's this sort of
judgement. So when it comes to that kind of
perception within our own cultures and amongst ourselves,
how do you handle that? I experienced it myself.
When I go to sub-Saharan Africa,which is where I'm originally
from, there is a disconnect because I was raised in the
(02:18):
biracial multicultural home. So sometimes I will be told that
I'm acting way more European andthen I go to Europe and then now
I'm acting more African in certain ways, or I'm acting more
American because I am too Americanized.
And I think that it goes both ways is like me as a person.
I have to embrace that because it is the truth.
(02:40):
It's true that there is a difference.
It's true that there is a disconnect.
And I think that the person alsoin identifying that or observing
that also has to take a step back and be like, it's not a bad
thing either. Humility is really what goes a
long way. Entering the space with saying,
hey, this is not about me. It's about the person in front
(03:01):
of me. I am going to choose peace above
everything else. There are a lot of things that
this person does not know about me, and there are a lot of
things that I don't know about this person.
And we don't have to get along either, but we at least have to
give each other dignity and growfrom it so much.
Just having a conversation. We might not be the same
religion, the same color, same brain gang, or we might be from
(03:24):
the same place but have lived truth and realities that are
completely different. And that's completely OK.
Like that's what makes the worlda beautiful place is all our
differences. Humans want to get along.
We're social by nature, but to embrace those differences and
use them as a strength is clearly perceived in how you
conduct yourself. And I think it speaks to your
(03:44):
ability to cross boundaries, a lot of boundaries that would
keep other people out. You're able to move almost
permeably on both sides of it and see multiple perspectives
and carry those perspectives andcommunicate with people in a way
that is very validating for them.
I really appreciate that becausemy situation or my journey is
(04:06):
not necessarily unique. Like I'm sure that there are a
lot of people even within an organization that have probably
experience similar just pathways.
But it's like it takes a long time to get comfortable and come
to your own skin. But when you are always the
other you, I think, develop this, I guess we can call it a
sixth sense of reading the room very fast.
(04:30):
And I'm not talking about watching people's behavior.
I can literally sense an energy shift as I'm walking in.
People don't have to say anything.
They don't even have to necessarily look at me.
But I can feel it. And of course, I look very
different, right? First of all, I'm 61, so it's
not like I can't really go underthe radar.
But because of that, I think that that was a certain point in
(04:52):
my life where I had to decide, OK, am I going to continue this
pursuit of trying to fit in? Or am I just going to be myself
and brace who I am? And then just turn all these
differences into qualities and assets and then things that now
I can tap into and become just needed assets and whatever space
(05:13):
that I'm coming in. So it's like I speak multiple
languages. I have been all over the world.
I have a certain acumen that noteverybody have been able to
develop the way that I have. Well, let me use that and put it
at the service of whatever mission that it is that I
believe in. So I think that that confidence
that you're talking about, that strength, it was definitely a
work in progress for a long time.
(05:35):
But it's definitely freeing and definitely rewarding to be able
to fully embrace it because it helps a lot of people.
There's nothing that makes me feel more fuzzy on the inside
than being able to step into a room where I can tell that
people are maybe getting frustrated or they just hurting
because they feel like nobody ishearing them or seeing them.
(05:57):
And they kind of need that validation and to walk in and be
able to give that to another human being, whether it is one
or a group of people, That to meis always a win.
So when you talk about operationalizing cultural
intelligence, can you expand on the pain point that you
recognized and that you wanted to address?
(06:20):
Africa is a region of the world that is unlike any other.
There is a lot of, I would say, nuances and complexities and
particularly because you have 50plus countries, things are just
always different. And so it makes it strategically
difficult because you cannot come up with a blanket strategy
for the entire continent. We have to dig deep like look
(06:43):
into ethnicities, look into tribal dynamics, look into the
position of the elders of the religious leaders, etc.
So when we read into just data and we just have had this
repeated history of falling short, when we don't look into
the cultures of those countries.And when I look at doctrines and
(07:05):
even the way that we plan our missions is like cultures seem
to be a set aside, like an afterthought.
Where is the way that I look at it is that it should be the
start. It should be at the root of
everything that we do, especially in the African space.
And when I go out and I teach about African culture, I talk to
people about colonization, and that's somehow a topic that is
(07:29):
like really sensitive. And I think that is because
probably of the history of our own country and the way that we
perceive also colonial times. And we try to detach ourselves
as much as we can from that partof history.
But I think that is very important, again, to have that
conversation, like look at how things were prior to
colonization coming through. Then look at how colonial powers
(07:54):
split them, because a lot of tribes get split in different
pieces amongst those colonial boundaries.
For example, I come from the Luba tribe.
Well, believe it or not, the DRC, the border splits my tribe
in half. So my family, we speak Chaluba
in the French, but the other part of the tribe is in Angola.
(08:15):
So they speak Portuguese. They dance different dances, but
we all look alike. So those are things are
important to know because there are wounds associated with that.
There are things that those tribes carry that if you just
read how the laws have been implemented or just about the
system which was brought by the Belgians in the DRC, for
(08:38):
example, you are going to miss all of that.
So that's the reason why I made a conscious decision to write
more about it, to talk more about it, to create Cultural
Intelligence Strategy LLC, to bemore of that voice of saying,
hey, you're missing out on so much.
And those are critical things that especially a civil affairs
(08:59):
forces, we need to know in orderto be successful at whatever it
is that we do, which is literally to embed ourselves
into local populations. So any tips or tricks that
you've developed that you want to see manifested more in this
career field? What have you come up with in
some dicey situations that have allowed you to breakthrough
(09:19):
where others haven't? I'm sure you have some keen
advice on just especially and ifyou want to talk about gender
roles as well, because we're nottalking just cultures, we're
talking to you as a woman cominginto these areas as well.
Is there something you've dealt with, whether it's tone of
voice, your approach to people? I mean, there's, so there's, I
know this is a very complex question, but is there anything
(09:39):
that comes to mind that you said, hey, you know what, that
was actually really beneficial. I need to do that more and
implement that more. When I started witnessing a lot
of those gap coming from the word that I I did or that I do
in the government was actually when I was part of the
peacekeeping training in Mauritania.
(09:59):
At the time, it was the African Contingency Operations training
and assistance to teach human rights.
The Moritanya is actually an Islamic Republic, and that was
my first experience in an Islamic country.
I didn't really know what to expect, but I had prepared
myself just like any U.S. Army soldier would prepare
(10:21):
themselves. So I read about the place of a
woman and in a country like that, what to expect, whether I
need to cover my hair and, you know, the basics of how to greet
people. Had not to offend people.
And what I realized is that whenI get there, none of that theory
really mattered. What really went a long way was
(10:43):
just me being authentic. And I think that we forget that.
Just take the person in front ofyou for who they are, but you
show yourself as who you are too, right.
So perhaps sometimes it just demonstrate that you don't
really know who you are. I don't know, I can presume all
day, but I think that it starts there just being more authentic.
(11:03):
So that was like my first key take away.
Like Natasha, just be you walk in there and then if you have
something in common, say it. Oh my gosh, how many kids do you
have? Oh, I have three.
I'll be like, I have 3-2. Would you have boys, girl?
I have three boys. I have 3 girls.
Oh, it's so natural, like you can talk about so many things,
(11:25):
you don't have to belong to the same world and it doesn't really
matter your rank, especially like now serving as a 30 year
golf. I think that is something that
we are fighting also. But I think that it's like
sometimes when it's necessary, don't be afraid to just speak up
because you have the power to make things better more often
than not. But I think that it's also like
(11:45):
group effort as an organization,like we all really have to 1st
internally come together in order to make things happen when
we are out of our own boundaries.
There's so much keen insight there.
I love jiu jitsu because it helps us on the mats to
challenge our own egos and our own especially like you said,
with the posturing, because that's, that's a primal
response, right? That's a psychological state of
(12:06):
defensiveness. Could be anger, could be a lot
of fear really. I mean, anger could be a
secondary emotion to the fear ofbeing either attacked, fear of
being misunderstood. But a lot of it could just
simply be a perceived threat. Whereas you come in and could
say, look, you're tense over this, but that's not what's
happening. There's a sub context here.
Let me clear that up. And just simply by addressing
it, by labeling it, we learn that in psychology by reframing
(12:28):
it, a lot of that tension will just immediately dissipate
because the brain will then say,oh, okay, my radar system is
really jacked up right now and the the smoke alarms going off
in my brain, but there's no fire.
And so to tell someone that and recenter them then creates
meaningful dialogue. And it's cool that you did that.
Being intentional and being selfaware and also being humble
(12:50):
enough to listen to the people that sometimes can pick up on
things that you are not necessarily realizing.
I've been in situations where I'm understanding my environment
a certain way and then someone else comes in and be like, well,
the reality might not actually be what you perceive.
And then they give you that little background story or that
(13:11):
little piece of information thatyou missed or whatever the case
may be, or body language that you actually did not pick up on
because you're not fully familiar with the culture and
what that actually means. I mean, even I mentioned to you,
I'm a revert, right? So Islam for me was something
very foreign. And it's like what I understand
years after reverting is completely different from what I
(13:33):
thought I knew being a product of primarily like Europe and
America. It's like, Oh my gosh, like I
never understood actually what Islam was about.
And it's just amazing that into the psychology of people and the
undercurrent of why do they act the way that they do?
Why do they make the decisions that they make?
(13:54):
It's just absolutely fascinatingto me.
I would kind of boil down the thesis to your approach to life,
if I could simplify that ways. I'm hearing a lot of challenge
presumptions, but also stay curious, like do both at the
same time. It's kind of a dual prong
approach. So rather than allow someone's
preconceptions or biases or whatever to to stop
(14:15):
conversation, I feel like you doa good job of wanting to
challenge presumptions and go inthere kind of with a clean
slate. Again, going back to that
concept of objectivity, but at the same time doing it with a
sense of curiosity, which I think is a fun way of doing life
really because it's you don't have an agenda.
You're just, there's a sense of openness of, hey, let's let me
look at this and not come at it with a preconceived toolkit of
(14:40):
how I'm going to address this kind of that saying that if all
you have is a hammer, everything's a nail.
And I think you have a fun approach of attacking these
problem sets. Thank you.
I don't ever come out of the house being like, well, I am
going to just talk to one personand here are all the things I
would like to find out about them.
(15:00):
Like that's not how I operate. I just remain open, genuinely
curious. I try not to force anything.
I'm comfortable with silence. You have to get comfortable with
silence. Sometimes there's just nothing
to say. Don't fill the silence.
I think that Africa is perfect to practice those skills and
identify weaknesses because it'slike, I don't know what it is
(15:23):
about. Like the African community, like
people can really smell a lack of authenticity from like miles
away. So I can't even pretend when I'm
over there is either I'm it or I'm not.
If I'm having a bad day, I can'tlie about it.
I just say I'm having a bad day and then someone will say, why
are you having a bad day? The sun is out, the sky is blue.
(15:43):
We have something to eat, something to drink.
Like, there's a lot to be grateful for, and then you laugh
and you keep it on. And that could be a stranger,
right? So yeah, truly remaining open to
that people sense when you are not being genuine about things.
So yeah, I think that is important.
It's just human beings doing life, but as civil affairs
professionals even more. Yeah, very well said.
(16:07):
And as we're we're kind of coming to a close here.
One thing I wanted to say, it's a lot of what you've done, a lot
of your accomplishments clearly comes from the work you've done
personally and privately going back to your roots, going back
to who you were as a young child, noticing your differences
and how you look and your different cultures in the
biracial background and all of that.
(16:27):
So I think yourself work, what you've done privately in your
own life has manifested kind of harvest of fruit, if you will,
that you can gain in a professional arena as well.
But it started with everything you did as your younger self.
And this is coming from my experience too, because as we
overcome our own insecurities, our fears, our uncertainties,
(16:48):
that then becomes our superpowerreally.
And I guess I would ask you, what's your advice to people who
find themselves in a place wherethey're uncomfortable with their
differences? They're they don't know how to
approach life or how to reconcile so many different
scripts that are playing in their mind.
What would you say? And again, I'm assuming it's
going to speak to authenticity, but to those who might feel
(17:10):
alone listening to this right now and who want to have that
confidence and that comfort thatyou have now with themselves,
what's your advice to them? Oh that's a deep question.
I think that there is no real blanket, one-size-fits-all
answer, but I would say that something that you can find in
common amongst people that exudethat confidence or poise or
(17:34):
strength, I think that we were able to take a step back.
When you humble yourself, you become truer not to others, but
to yourself. First identify at what point
does it start to make your stomach feel unsettled?
Or when you start like sweating a little bit or you feel that
nervousness and anxiety about own self and sit there for a
(17:57):
second, like try to identify where is that coming from?
Why do you feel this way? Are there any specific moments
when you feel that way and just identify it and start like
calling it into what it is and knowing yourself 1st?
And I think that in order to do that and do the work that we do
and just be a good human being, you have to start from a place
(18:18):
of humility. Otherwise, you not only do a
disservice to others, but you really do a disservice to
yourself. Beautifully said.
I love that. And one thing I'll say in
closing is what you just offeredup is something that doesn't
rely on having on being a lawyerand a doctor and having all that
education. It's you make it so approachable
(18:39):
and achievable and simple for people that may even look at
your educational background and say I can't achieve that.
I don't have that much knowledgeor academic prowess and what
not, and it's so cool to know that at the heart of it, and
again, this speaks to your passion, it's a very human
element. It's a universal human element
that traverses all these different boundaries in life.
(18:59):
So I just want to say thank you for leading with that.
I think that's a really powerfulapproach because anybody can
grasp it. It's not hidden, it's not
esoteric. It's something that all people
are are capable of utilizing andimplementing in their lives.
Thank you so much. I'm a firm believer that you
attract your tribe and I see thesame qualities in you.
So I think that it was not by coincidence that we connected.
(19:22):
So I definitely appreciate you even making the time to chat
with me on something that I'm super passionate about.
Super rad conversation. It's your second time on the One
CA podcast. And with that, let this
conversation come to a close. I appreciate your kind words.
It's great meeting you and getting to just see you in
practice, putting this all out there in the world.
And with that, all of a tool setto approach the world and solve
(19:44):
other problems on a global scale.
So thanks for all the work that you do.
Thank you, Dan. Thanks folks.
Thanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like
and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast
platform. Also, if you're interested in
coming on the show or hosting anepisode, e-mail us at
californiapodcasting@gmail.com. I'll have the e-mail and
(20:07):
California Association website in the show notes.
And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field
working with a partner, nation'speople or leadership, US
relations. Thank you all for what you're
doing. This is Jack, your host.
Stay tuned for more great episodes one CA podcast.
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