48: Antarctica, Climate, Culture…And Lots Of Penguins

Earth Day 2024 was this past Monday April 22nd! In honor of our one and only Earth, Dean brings Tom (and us) along with him on his recent excursion to Antarctica in this episode, where he walked among thousands of non-tap-dancing penguins and giant calving glaciers on the warmest day ever recorded there to-date. Specifically, Dean details his conversations on his Antarctic journey with global climate leader Christiana Figueres on how cultural “DNA” underlies the US-American case, the Asian case, and the Latin American case for addressing climate change. As Dean writes in his July 2023 Substack article about this: “To ignore culture’s role in how we advocate for climate and the environment ensures a protracted struggle, even with all the best science, and the best negotiations. However, when we understand culture, and leverage that understanding in the strategic service of global goals, like climate, we accelerate the success we need to have. When it comes to climate, in the limited time we have left, we cannot afford to overlook or ignore the cultural advantage.” ***Subscribe to Dean’s Substack here to read the whole July 2023 article titled “Climate & Culture”, plus check out Dean’s “Culture’s Consequences” articles, CultureQuizzes, and much much more!*** Have a cultural question or episode idea? Reach out on X/Twitter & Facebook (@OopsCultureShow) or by email at [e-mail]. Music: “Little Idea” – Bensound.com

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
- Well, here we are talking about really

(00:02):
relevant things in the world.
- Oh my God, that sounds so serious.
- Well, .- But here we are.
But we're, but we werehere just last night.
We went out to dinner. Actually.
- We did go, we did go out todinner last night. Yeah. It
- Was a lovely, I had a lovely- Time.
It was very, very nice. The food was good.
The company was meh. Oh, .
- Ah. Oh,
- I didn't realize that.
Explain words. What? I thoughtthe company was delightful.

(00:24):
- Well, no, I uh, I kid, I kid,
the company was smart and funny. Well, it
- Wouldn't go that far.
- Okay. I agree. Um, um, yeah.
We were out there and to knew,
had noticed something aboutthat night. What was it?
- It was a freezing cold night.
- It was very cold.- Yes. I was also there.

(00:44):
And , I noticed that, uh, Dean,
you were wearing a coat that
- Had a little, uh, of many colors.
A no, actually many colors.Oh, actually just one
- Coat.
We were calling you Joe, I believe
- We're now Yeah.
We're gonna list all the colors now. Yeah.
Um, no, it was, it wasan orange coat. Right.
And it looked very warm
and it had a little insigniathat said an Antarctica
- On it.
Right, right. So I wasvery intrigued. Yeah.

(01:05):
Bo both my wife and I werewearing our Antarctica jackets,
which are jackets that are given
to you if you go on thiscruise to Antarctica.
And, um, it's part of it
because the, um, the companywisely doesn't want anybody
to freeze the death they
- Take.
Are they orange? So they won't lose you.
- And they are orange.So that against the, the

(01:26):
- Ice. Yeah. Stand,
- Stand out. Sure. Thatmakes a lot of sense. Yeah,
- Absolutely. A lot of sense. Right.
- Because you are literallywalking on, on the continent
of the Antarctica and it's vast,
- Uh, yeah.
- Vast beyond, beyond words. Yeah.
And there are no people,
there are no towns, there are no cities.

(01:47):
There are penguins and seals, birds,
- , right. At ice.
- And scientists.
Those are the only people onAntarctica, essentially. Right.
Yeah. Um, from all over the world who have
to communicate with each other.
And so therein is an issue ofculture, which really anybody
who goes to Antarctica is going
to view the experiencethrough their own life.

(02:08):
And my life has to deal with culture
because this is after all,
- Oops. Your culture
- Is- Showing.
- And I'm Dean Foster.- And I'm Tom Peterson.
And with us in studio today, we also have

(02:31):
- Torin . That's me.
- Welcome. Torin.- Hi. Hey. That's my name
- Who invited- . I'm having fun.
- And we're talking about,okay. We're talking about Orange
Jackets and Antarcticaand Yes, it's interesting.
And culture. And for me,it's kind of interesting
because you talk about culture in a place
where there really isn'ta culture except Right.

(02:52):
The human population isvery few and far between.
They're in research stations
and they're scientistsfrom all over the world
who have to communicate with each other.
So I guess there's a culturalelement to that is in my work,
I'm always trying, Tom. Sure. There
- Is.
I can't see how they couldavoid it. Right, right.
That would, you're goingto have, you know, there's,

(03:14):
and I've heard people talk about this.
I'm not a scientistand, uh, not even close.
So, but it is a, thereis a culture in science
and a way of doing things.
Certainly there is a scientificmethod that is universal in,
uh, in the, in the sense of the planet.
It's universal among scientists,

(03:34):
but not where they come from.
Right. And I mentioned that
was like astronauts as well, right.
Impacted that. I wouldthink so. Countries Sure.
And spending close, waita minute, are close.
Are there astronauts inAntarctica? Yes. Well, actually
- Maybe we actually did somework many years back, um,
on one of the Mars missions, um,
- On the continent there?
- No, not in Antarctica. Thiswas in the United States.

(03:56):
Um, teams that were working from
- Russia.
Oh, you did some work with Russian
- And American teams.
Uhhuh , yeah.Who were having to work on,
on the Mars Mission together.
Yeah. Yeah. Um, so we did the
cross-cultural support on that.
Oh, mm-Hmm. .And, and yes, the, the need for
that kind of understanding, uh,
in the scientific researchcommunity is great.
Mm-Hmm. . Sure.Mm-Hmm. . So we
could have gone down to Antarctica to do

(04:17):
that, which would've been lovely.
'cause then someone would've been actually
paying me to make thetrip. Right. But that
- Didn't happen. No,
- .
So there I am in Antarctica,in my orange jacket, so
that I stand out against the snow so
that they don't lose me.
And Good. And my wife probably good. Yeah.
And about, uh, 30 other people. Okay.
And, um, you, you,

(04:39):
I understand you can fly into Antarctica,
but that's not typically theway most of the time you do it.
So you took a boat, youhave to take a ship.
So you, you, uh, we flew downfrom New York to Buenos Aires
and from Buenos Aires tous, which is the ccb ah,
tiara del Tiara del Fuego.
- Oh, that's- Cool. And the furthest south southern
point in the Americas.

(04:59):
And that's Cape Horn. Mm-Hmm.. Mm-Hmm.
right there.Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. And then you get
on a ship, and for two
or three days you sail acrossdays, the Drake passage Wow.
To Antarctica.
And you, and you wake up that morning
and the sun is shining,
and you open the, theship's window of your cabin,
and you see this other continent. Mm.
- Yeah.- Which for all intents

(05:20):
and purposes, doesn'tbelong there in my mind
as I'm looking at it, becauseI was just at the southern
most point of the earth. Mm.
- Mm-Hmm. or,so you thought or Land's end.
- Yeah. Land's end. Yeah.But it wasn't, yeah.
There's yet more to come. Were
- You able to walk around- On the continents?

(05:40):
Yes, absolutely. So the, the,the ship, um, docks as close
to land as it possibly can.
Mm. And then you go out in zodiacs
that are kind of like these dinghy.
- Yeah. The inflatable crafts. Inflatable
- Crafts.
And the zodiacs go between theship and the actual land. Mm.
So, uh, it was quite aremarkable moment for me,

(06:01):
uh, emotional, really.
When you step out of that, um, zodiac
and you put your foot ontothe continent of Antarctica.
Yeah. It's, it was, it was a,it was a very moving moment.
I'm not quite sure why, exceptthat I was there. Uh, me.
- Well,- That's fascinating.
- And the penguins,- You, could you
comprehend where you were?

(06:23):
Was it, was it star so stark that it was,
or not stark maybe is not the right word,
but was it the, was there an ability?
I'm only saying that in the sense that it,
sometimes in my experiencewhen I've gone somewhere
different, it has been,it's been almost a, um,
an interesting aspect of my,of, of my adapting to it, in

(06:45):
that it, it suddenlydoesn't seem that different.
It just seems it's anotherspace that I'm in. I
- Think you're raisinga very important point.
Okay. Yes. Because I thinkone of my initial reactions,
and you can have many mm-Hmm.
, you know, Ithink you don't wanna filter
these different feelings out,
and they can be overwhelming a little bit.
But one of many feelingsreactions I had was,

(07:05):
uh, oh, this is not so different.
I've been in cold places,I've seen mountains before.
I've seen strikingsunshine before. Mm-Hmm.
, uh, I've even seen
penguins before in the zoo.
Um, so it's not so different.
I think we tend to want tosee similarities in order
to be able to encompass the experience.
Sure. We have to relate itto something that know that's

(07:26):
- Point. Sure. Right.
- Are you walking on ice
or are you walking on more land dirt?
- Well, it depends. Whatare you able to walk on?
I mean, there, there's gravelactually, uh, like a, like,
like a beach head, uh, okay.
Where you're walking on land.
Um, but then the gravel very,very quickly becomes ice.
- I see. But there's enoughthere where you could walk.
I, 'cause I assume that's whereyou were probably walking.

(07:46):
- Yes. That's where thedingy pulls in. Okay.
And but literally within yardsof that, you're on ice. Yeah.
- Because then that's more,you know, familiar ground,
somewhat than ifyou're having to go walk
- On this.
There's, there's some length
glacier now. Yeah. You mean? Yeah. Yeah.
- Right. And, and so I tended,as you described Tom, to try
to see similarities there,I think in order to, um,

(08:08):
minimize the, uh, the reality Mm.
- Of being the overwhelming aspects of it,
- Of being in a place so far away.
- Sure. And well, it's interesting too
because we do relate that,because you can even say
that if you listen tothe, the feed back to
the Earth from the first people
who walked on the moon, right.

(08:28):
Neil Armstrong, buzz Aldrin,when they were their,
their first things are, and I'm,
and sure there's an aspect that science
and stuff like that that goes with that.
But they are then comparing it to
what they know about the earth.
Hmm. You know, he's talkingabout the, the depth, the depth
of the dust, similar towhen he gives some examples
and stuff like that as he is going around

(08:49):
because it's familiar.
'cause this, this is otherworldly,
- It is otherworldly- .
And, and, and that wouldappear to be too I, yeah.
- Only is, is, um, I, I think it's hard
to do if not terrifying.
Mm-Hmm. So you wanna relate it to things
that you make you feel comfortable. Sure.
- Right. Yeah. And relate to it. Right.
- And then the, and then apenguin walks up to you, .

(09:12):
And then I'm reminded, oh, this is very
- Probably different.
This is pretty different. Thisis, yeah. Did you have, um,
maybe scientists there
or sort of experts to guide you through
- What you were seeing?
We did. We were on a remarkable, um, trip.
And, um, there were, uh,experts and scientists with us.
And, um, on thisparticular trip we had, uh,

(09:34):
Christiana Es, who is, uh,a foremost climate expert.
And so there was a lot ofemphasis in this trip on the whole
issue of climate and climate change
and how it affects Antarctica
and subsequently the rest of the world.
Uh, Christiana in fact,led the, um, un, um,
climate talks, the Paris Treaty,

(09:56):
that was the first big Paris treat
- Treaty.
Oh, interesting. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.
That's a big deal. That, that
- Yeah.
That first big agreementmany years. But other
- Than that, she'd done . Yeah.
- And she spoke abouther, that whole experience
and how culturally fraught that was.
Oh my goodness. Yeah. Wow. And,
- Um, in a way still is.
Yeah. It's very much still is
- .
And, and, and I remember avery interesting conversation

(10:17):
about the cultural issues of getting
climate awareness
and climate change policies put in place
based on culture.
And that if we can take the,
the cultures that areinvolved in this issue,

(10:38):
which is all cultures in the world,
and leverage the cultural preferences for
how they feel about climate change Mm-Hmm.
We can use culture as a lever
for getting it adopted more quickly.
Right. In other words, my thinking was
that there are certain culturesthat would get on board

(10:59):
with climate with what we needto do about climate change.
If we appeal to what,
what their culture values,if we try to appeal to
what the culture doesn't value,it's gonna turn them off.
So Yeah. What do, um,what's gonna juice Americans
to get behind climate change policies?

(11:22):
Sure. What's gonna juice Chinese to get
behind climate change policies?
Mm. And my thinking was that we've got
to emphasize two differentthings when we're talking
to these two different groups,
because what's gonna juicethem is gonna be different Mm.
Based on their culture. Mm.
- And it's gonna be different. And,
and, uh, it would seemto me that it's going

(11:42):
to be even different ifyou've gotta sell this
to a public as a whole.
Within those cultures,
those cultures aren'tthe same all throughout.
Right. They have have theirown idiosyncrasies, at least
within large countries especially,
but even in small countries.
Right. So you've got, you'vegotta juice not only the,

(12:02):
the overall culture,but you've gotta be able
to juice enough of thosein individual pieces
Right. Within those cultures.
- Right. And, and- Other than that, it's not hard. Right.
- And this has to cascadedown from leadership and from
and from elites who, who advocate.
Right. Right. But howdo you advocate for it?
And, and the point is that inthe US it's gotta be advocated

(12:23):
around individual benefitand corporate benefit
and economic benefit. And
- Even the idea to makeit, to, to get to the point
where you get these peoplethinking that there is a,
there is a reason to, areal reason to pay attention
to this that they will benefit from.

(12:45):
Right. A self benefit.Yeah. Uhhuh .
And in the US as you'retalking about the culture,
since it's an individualist society,
or at least believes this,then in, in doing so,
you're gonna have toWhat's in it for me? Yeah.
- It's the bottom line. Yeah.
Where do I make the, where, where,
- Where the, is thisreally going to impact me?
I don't feel it on adaily basis. So look at
- What's been happening in terms of, uh,

(13:06):
social policy development from this.
In the US we get thiscell, which is based on,
there's a green opportunity here.
Mm-Hmm. But it's gotta be agreen economic opportunity.
Mm-Hmm. forcorporations and for individuals.
Right. Right. In, and it's gotta be green.
I'm sorry. It's gotta be economic.

(13:26):
- It's gotta be an opportunity,and it's gotta be an
opportunity that is, doesn'tcome wrapped in a threat.
- And, and it's often, itwould be almost impossible
to think of it in anyother terms for us culture.
Um, but yeah.
That isn't the sell point for a lot
of Asian cultures. Mm.
- Right- Now, China

(13:47):
and the US are pretty muchthe two big players on when it
comes to this climate issue.
Mm-Hmm. . Sohow are we gonna sell it
in China is biggest
- Emitters. Yeah.
- It, and so this,
because we've got a societybased on this whole notion
that almost doesn't exist in the us
and in fact in the US it's,it's looked at in many ways

(14:07):
as anathema, but the wholenotion of doing things
for collective good.
- Yeah. Right.- And now that doesn't mean you,
that's, I mean, we don't do that at all.
That doesn't mean China's awhite knight and the US isn't.
Right. You know what we're saying.
We all know how that gets corrupted.
And we all know in anautocratic society like China,

(14:29):
it gets very much corrupted.
Mm. But the cell has tobe based on that notion
of collective good.
Mm-Hmm. . Andso that you, you just going
to have to, uh, advocate forthis in a very different way.

(14:51):
So we presented, um, basicallythis theoretical framework
for thinking about howculture impacts the adoption
of climate change initiatives.
Hmm. And, um, of course, they have to go
through the political filtersof the economic filters
of all of these nations.
Uh, and, and those arereal hard realities.
They are, I mean, the wholenotion that a lot of, um,

(15:14):
nations that are, that areimpacted first by climate change
of the least cause of it.
Mm-Hmm. . And so
how do we create some equity around that?
Right. Yeah. Big politicalproblems. Mm-Hmm. .
But, but stepping back from that,
what we were looking at solelywas the issue of, um, how do,
how do we come up with a, a, a theoretical

(15:39):
roadmap for dealing with, withthe cultural, uh, adoption
of the whole idea of culture change
and climate, uh, of thewhole idea of climate change.
Yeah. Um, and then we evenspoke about Latin America. Mm.
Okay. Where, okay, we've got Brazil,
you know, the lungs of the world.
There's the Yeah.There's the Amazon jungle
and or Amazon is.

(16:00):
And so how do we deal with
adopting these ideas in Brazil?
And at the time, uh,
we had Bolsonaro who was in charge Mm-Hmm.
. And he was,he was denying the whole
existence of climate change.
Right. But we knew that thatwas just a political moment,
and that that did now disappear.
Right. Mm-Hmm. .Um, so in Latin America,

(16:21):
the cultural requirements for adoption of
of climate change initiatives are
different in Latin America.
Culturally, the issue overthe centuries has always been
aligning yourself within groups and outgroups.
Okay. And if a countrycould make it a look
as if the ingroup wasnow advocating for this,

(16:45):
then, and, and make itso that people would, um,
find benefit in aligningwith a particular group, that
that would be a verypowerful, uh, way of getting,
getting climate changeinitiatives adopted.
So it was a fascinating, interesting trip.
And we wrote up this theoretical roadmap
and we presented it to the penguins.

(17:06):
- Okay. And what did the Penguins say?
Well, they had a lot to sayabout this. Oh, okay. Did they?
I'm sure, yes. They, they'reannoying. I find them annoying.
. They like the squawk. It.
They, and they think they're cool
'cause they, they'realways formally dressed.
They, yeah. I know. You know,
the bow ties though, chill out.
I like the bow tie aspect.Just chill out. Penguins. It,
- It's remarkable howrefined they look Yeah.

(17:26):
And how much they stink. Mm-Hmm. Yeah.
The, the two just were dichotomy.
They, they were a dissonancein my right. Sure.
Because as your, as yourzodiac approach, the shore,
- I've had people saythat about me, actually.
- Especially when you're in
- A tuxedo.
Absolutely. Which you oftenare. Yeah. Yeah. A lot. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. . But, you know, know it.

(17:49):
It's, I I do anotherquestion about the Penguins.
Um, in, in your experience, vast as it is
with Penguins, did the p Yes.
With the penguins did, could they tap dance?
- Oh, they did. Yeah.
You could, you can give them any tune
you want. Yeah, sure. And
- They, yeah.
- Did you film Happy Feet? Thesequel to Happy Feet there?
- ? Yeah. Well, doc,could you work on that? Yeah.

(18:10):
- Here's the thing about that. Not so
- Happy Feet, another sequel, you know,
because that's the, that's the, that's the
not so Happy Feet, the climate
- Change. So Happy Feet.
- Oh. Video is the not so happy Feet,
- Actually.
So to that I did wanna,so, okay. I have two
- Questions.
Oh, we've got an actual cultural aspect.
- This, that know, well,not, not really on this one.
Well, I guess sort of,um, did you see effects
of climate change in
- Antarctica?
- Absolutely. Did you? Okay. Yeah.
In fact, it was very ironicthat the very first day

(18:32):
that we stepped out onto the ice, uh,
and encountered a penguin colony of, I,
I would say's tens of thousands of
- Pens. Really? Oh my God. Oh,
- Wow.
Um, it's not individual.
Interesting about thepenguins is that from an
an anthropomorphicperspective, um, it's easy to

(18:55):
see them as creatures in tuxedos and,
and waddling around cat dancing
and tap cute, cute as hell and cute.
It and all of that. we're
anthropomorphizing, youknow, these creatures.
Absolutely. And they're really birds.
And they're not livingcollectively, uh, in a society.
We tend to, uh, overlaythat perception on them

(19:18):
because we humans do.
- Right.- They are living with each other, not
because there is, um,a society of behavior
that has built up.
'cause they're birds, theydon't, for the same reason
that birds will clusterin a bush, in a tree,
it's merely for protection. Oh,

(19:39):
- Well, that's what I was gonna say.
It's one of the, but it that still, safety
and security is one ofthe blocks of the pyramid.
Right. Of what we
- See.
But a very fundamental one.There's very, very fundamentals.
There's no societystructures and rules. You're
- Not getting beyond that. Right. Yeah.
- Yeah. So they're not cooperating
with each other in any wayother than to be near each other
so that there's 10,000 ofthem when the operation

(19:59):
- Of survival.
- Really? When- Yes. And survival of the species. Right.
- When the, when the, the sewers,
which are these huge birds, uh,
almost prehistoric lookingthings come swooping in
and to scoop up the penguins.
Yes. Yes. The baby penguins
- The babies. Yeah. Yeah.
- So, um, there's tens of thousands
of them living in these colonies.

(20:19):
Wow. But there's no socialstructure to these colonies.
There's no hierarchy. There'snothing like that. Hmm.
And, uh, and because they've,they've rarely see humans.
Hmm. Yeah. When we land
and step onto, onto land,we're now walking amongst them.
And they have, they have made their paths.

(20:39):
They make these littlepaths through the colonies,
and so you walk on their paths.
Sure. Um, and you have to be careful
because they know no fear.
Mm. Interesting. Yeah. Theydon't know humans can hurt them.
Right. And so they don'twalk away from you. Yeah.
Some walk up to you.
Um, and they're all walkingon the path with you.

(21:02):
- Mm-Hmm. Right, right.
- So we're all using the pathMm-Hmm. That they made. Right.
Well, to get from pointA to point B. Yeah.
And you're being escorted,or at least surrounded by
and accompanied by penguins. Yeah.
- Wow. Yeah. Very weird, I would think.
But did, how long did it take for,

(21:24):
and I, I do believe thereactually is some, some sort
of cultural aspect of this.
How long did it take
before that seemed somewhat normal?
, I guess. How longwere you doing it too? Because,
- Yeah.
Well, I was only in Antarcticafor about a week. Okay.
And every day we would go on the ice.
At the end of the day, you take the,

(21:45):
the zodiac back to the ship.
- Did, but did you acclimateat all acclimate, so to speak,
to the, to, to the ,to the surroundings, yes.
To the, I wish I could say Idid that on purpose, .
I know you did. It's Let'sgo with that. Yeah. Yeah.
It's to, to the, to tothe procedure, to the idea
that these things are going to be there
and that they're going to walk with you

(22:06):
and, and stuff like that.
- On the one hand, uh, it, it, it,
it became more comfortable Right.
As we became more knowledgeable of
what we were encounteringUhhuh .
But on the other hand, itbecame more mysterious too.
- Okay. Because,- Uh,
- Explain that a littlemore. Yeah. See more of
- It.

(22:27):
Because as we, as we went every day,
we learned more about Mm-Hmm.
What being an Antarctica was. Sure. Okay.
And so one day, you know, thefirst day you get familiar
with the penguins at thisvery superficial level.
And the next day, maybe a little bit more.
Uh, but then you learn also
as the days go on aboutthese strange other things.
See, we're walking, uh, down a path

(22:49):
and o over over a crest.
Mm-Hmm. . And wehear this phenomenal crashing.
What's an iceberg calving?
- Ah, yeah. Breaking off. Okay.
For those that don't know the term. Yes.
- Right. Yeah. And thesound is like nothing I
can imagine. Oh,
- Imagine.
Yeah. Sure.
- And we were supposed to bein our zodiacs at one point,

(23:13):
uh, in a particular cove.
And, uh, we were in the zodiacs,
and then we had to turnback as quickly as we could.
Mm. Because one of the, the sheer side
of a glacier was calving.
Mm huh.
And when that side cameinto the water, it was going
to create basically a tidal wave.

(23:34):
Sure. Wow. And we had toget out. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
So we, we had to hustle back to the ship
as fast as we could.
- Huh. Well, the fact and thefact that your guides weren't
- Aware this was gonna happen,maybe, I dunno, suggest
- They were aware of it.
- Yeah. Were they Okay.I just was wondering,
is this something unusual
because of climatechange was happening more
- Frequently?

(23:54):
Is that happening more frequently?
- Yeah. Oh, to your originalquestion, the day that we, uh,
first day we landed
and stepped onto the ice,uh, was the warmest day ever
recorded in Antarctica?
Oh. And although those, thosewonderful orange jackets
that we were wearingdid keep us very warm.
It was too warm. I had to unzip it. Wow.
- Yeah. Wow.- Yeah.

(24:16):
- Yeah. That's not great.
- Every day that westayed there, there were,
there were more things to learn.
And by the time we left, werealized there was so much more
to know than what we, thanthan what we had learned.
Mm-Hmm. . So themystery kept compounding, um,

(24:36):
again, on the, on the zodiacs, going back
to the ship in one particularday, we had to really get back
to the ship quickly, becausethese winds were coming up.
Mm-Hmm. . And these are winds
that are only in Antarctica,
because they have to do with the fact
that the glaciers can be a certain height.
And the temperature betweenthe top of the glacier

(24:57):
and the bottom of the glacieris so distinctly different
that it creates this wind.
And once this wind comesup, um, it, um, it,
it's very, it's hurricane force.
- Wow. Yeah. - So you gottaget out of the way fast. Wow.
So these kinds of thingswe were encountering over
and over again, so thatmysteries only got bigger.

(25:18):
Mm. And the strangenessof the place overcame
my sense of familiarity,
which I realized at the beginning was a
defense mechanism. Yeah,
- Sure. You
- Wanted to feel more comfortable in
order, in order to feel comfortable.
- And, and to some degree,I think you probably, that,
that allows you to, in the beginning, to,
to drop the defenses somewhatand start to look around.

(25:40):
Right. And then you take inthings like you're talking
about, and then thatbecomes more, um, well,
whatever the impact isgonna be ,
- You become aware of howstrange and different, it
- Could be strange or frightening,
depending on where you are.
And in that case, I can see how
that very much could be like that. Yeah.
- Huh. Um, Dean, can I ask,
so this is my, my second question of

(26:00):
- The two.
No, you can't. Oh, I'm sosorry. So let's move on. Oh.
- Uh, but , uh, thankyou, uh, before
before we wrap up.
Um, you mentioned earlierabout sort of ingroup,
outgroup dynamics
- For Latin America, America
- In particular, and how thatcould influence the, you know,
the dynamics of, um, climate change, uh,

(26:22):
dealing with climate change,
- The uptake of solutions.
- Yeah. Can you talk, I,I just, you know, I know
that obviously in anyculture, in any society,
there is in groups outgroups.
Um, can you talk more about what
that looks like in Latin America?
- In particular? In Latin America,
it's been a major themethroughout Latin American history.
Okay. So, so there wouldalways be, uh, you know,
the indigenous peoples ofLatin America, Inca, Maya, um,

(26:47):
um, Aztec.
And then suddenly overnight, this,
this ingroup right now is deposed.
Right. And another ingroup comes in. Yeah.
And it start, it starts this process.
Uh, Latin American historyhas always been about the,
the right versus the left.
Mm-Hmm. But very extreme versions.
So if you were, if the right was in power

(27:07):
and you remember the right, you benefited.
Mm. And then, um, over time,for various reasons, uh,
the power shifts and it goes left.
I see. And then suddenlyyou have to become a member
of the left in order to be to,to get the benefits of the,
of the next decade of years.
It's sort of these extremes,
but it's always the swing between extremes

(27:28):
and extremes representedby different groups.
Hmm. And, uh, it, there hasnever been, it's been very hard
to do nation buildingin Latin America Mm-Hmm.
Because of this where we canall feel like we're all members
of one group called the Nation.
Yeah. You know? And that nation is exists
for me, for all of us.
Yeah. Uh, that's been amajor theme in Latin America,

(27:49):
- You know?
And that's so interesting because to
what we were saying earlierabout it being a more
individualistic society inAmerica, in the US America,
um, yeah.
It just makes me think ofthere could, from what you're,
from your theory to the penguins,
it sounds like you areproposing that this effort
of focusing around addressingclimate change could help
to unify the different partiesin throughout Latin America.

(28:11):
Whereas I, I, I think Ifeel like here in making
that argument of like, let'scome together as one earth,
that for a lot of folks couldbe like, well, that's nice,
but that's not enough for me.
- It's okay to come together.That's very interesting.
As long as you're comingtogether to what I believe
- It's what I believe and
how does it benefit meeconomically and in other ways.
Absolutely. But yes,economically for sure. Um,
- Well, the kumbaya aspect ofgetting people on board, uh,

(28:34):
join my group because it'sgonna represent more people
and it's gonna benefit more of us.
Yeah. Um, yeah.
There is a kumbaya aspect to it,
but at the same time,that has a lot of power
and in Latin America appealingto people based on that idea.
Yeah. That we can all be in this together
and benefit all more than just a handful

(28:56):
that are benefiting now that has a lot
of power in Latin America. Mm-Hmm.
- That's, that's an important thing
to know if you're in the middle of trying
to make people understandwhat is, what is happening to,
and, and why it's happening.
Right. Um, in,
in a thing like climatechange, ab absolutely.
It, it's very important.
By the way, I believe there'sbeen several different types

(29:18):
of species who have beeneliminated from this planet due
to circumstances in some cases.
Oh goodness. Far beyond their control,
but just circumstances thatin, in, in all of those cases,
really beyond their control.
Yeah. But in, but it,
'cause no one's really comealong that has been able
to contribute to that with the exception
of us Oh yeah.

(29:38):
Of humans. Oh, yeah. And,and being able to do that.
So you get a, you get a,
- Well, it's like we're talking about,
- It's a totally different game
- With trends earlier, right.
With the idea of yes, thereare chase in the earth,
however you look from theindustrial revolution on Yeah.
All these species havegone extinct and climb
- In the air even in that smallperiod at a time. Hottest,
- Hottest month ever hottest month ever.
Ever. You know, it's like, okay.
Trends are very clearly pointed towards,

(29:59):
there's something inaddition going on here.
Yeah. We urgently needaddress. Um, how do we do it?
That's the question. Yeah. We're
- We, and we were talkingabout just one way
of addressing it, thecultural issue, addressing it.
Yeah. Yeah. Clearly there'sa whole lot of certainly
- Gotta do it.
Certainly. I don't know. And, and
I, but that's very interesting.
But I don't, and that's, that's an,
that's an interestingthing too, in the sense
that I don't think thatwe are necessarily needing

(30:22):
to address the problem in a cultural way,
but we need to address ourability to manage the problem.
Definitely. In a cultural, it
- Feels like it has to start there.
- It has to be there.- Like,
like we talk about, we're not gonna do it.
We talk about real, it kindof has to start there. Yeah.
- Yeah. Well, I was, youknow, my position is always
that you, you gotta get the culture right
or else that nothing elseis gonna happen. Right?

(30:44):
- Yeah. You think there'sa cultural aspect to this?
- I think there's a cultural piece to
- This unbelievable.
You know, why there's acultural aspect to this
- Because oops,- Your culture
- Showing- Smell ya

(31:06):
before you run off and disappear back into
your own cultures.
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(31:28):
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