October 24, 2024 • 44 mins
Are Burma and Myanmar the same place? How long does a zat pwe last? Why are only foreigners allowed into a certain garage in Mandalay? In this episode, Dean and Tom travel along Myanmar’s central river, the Irrawaddy, to answer these very questions, all the while observing Buddhist temples and pagodas, holding hands with new friends, and donning a mustachioed purple t-shirt. They also seek to build bridges across a river of differences - and despite Producer Torin having just mixed river metaphors while writing this description, he (foolishly) continues his literary journey for one more sentence. In closing: Join us for this episode’s journey to and through Myanmar; you won’t soon forget it.
***Subscribe to Dean’s Substack here for all of Dean’s CultureQuizzes, “Culture’s Consequences” articles, and much more!***
Have a cultural question or episode idea? Reach out on X/Twitter & Facebook (@OopsCultureShow) or by email at oopscultureshow@gmail.com.
Hosts: Dean Foster & Tom Peterson
Audio Production: Tom Peterson & Torin Peterson
Music: “Little Idea” – Bensound.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Bob Hope and Bing Crosby did a whole
bunch of what they used to refer to
as road The road movies. Yeah. They were
all done in Los Angeles, I believe. I'm
pretty sure. Okay. But they all were supposedly
going to some relatively exotic or very exotic
location.
And they got into all sorts of problems,
and there was a love interest, which would
usually fought back and forth between the 2.
(00:21):
And then there would be a resolution usually
that neither one would get the love interest.
Uh-huh. And I'm probably really over summarizing, but
that was it. But they were very, very
popular, and they they made several of them.
This is back in the forties or 19
forties. I would say the forties, maybe the
early fifties. Fifties. Yeah. Yeah. Mhmm. Somewhere in
there. Well, The Road to Mandalay. I remember
that title. Yes. The Road to Mandalay is
definitely one. That was one of them. And
(00:42):
Mandalay is in is in Burma. Was was
in Burma at the time and now is
in It's still in Burma. Oh, okay. Yeah.
It's it's the north it's the main northern
city in Myanmar.
Okay. Except we refer to it generally now
as Myanmar. Right?
This is complicated. Okay. Well, then maybe we
should talk about this. Well, you know, why
don't we? Because there's probably a cultural aspect
(01:04):
to it. Right? Who who knows? Well, let's
investigate that because
Dean Foster,
we're here talking with you about that. And
I'm Tom Peterson, and we're here with Torren
again Hi.
And our producer, and we're all here to
play,
oops,
your culture
(01:25):
showin'.
So Burma,
Myanmar
are not 2 different places. They are the
same place. Correct? They are. They are the
same place, but we're talking about terms that
have been politicized.
Yes. And and and there and one of
the reasons this is interesting. We're talking about
We'll be the judge of that. Go ahead.
(01:46):
Is
you always are. Right? And everybody who's listening
always is. They should be. Right. If they're
paying attention, are you paying attention? I was
I was very fortunate to travel to Myanmar
slash Burma Uh-huh. In that very small window
that opened up where both the United States
government
and the Burmese government
(02:06):
allowed visitors
to go in. And I I think this
was back
in the in the early part of Obama's
administration.
I'm I'm having I'm not very good with
dates, so I I but I but in
the back of my mind, I was coming
up with this this
realization that I was approaching the anniversary
of making this extraordinary trip Mhmm. Which happened,
(02:30):
so I would say this is about 12
years ago. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Which happened, I
think,
around the same time that I that I
I was working in,
in Bangkok. Mhmm. I I had worked in
Bangkok and so
I was able to,
attach at this little side tour from Thailand
to to Burma. Oh. And, and then we
(02:53):
went from Burma to Laos and Cambodia. It
was an so it turned out to be
quite an extraordinary,
trip. And I'm sorry, Dean. Just to quickly,
interrupt and and ask. I don't mean to
interrupt. I do. There it goes. But this
is the time we're missing. Is just west
of Thailand,
just to put it place it geographically.
It's between between Thailand and India, actually. Ah,
(03:14):
okay. Can you That's helpful. Can you give
here here's a quick quiz for you. Okay?
A little visualization
map quiz.
Can you take us from India
through along there, like your trip?
What are the countries right along there? I'm
just thinking this way people out there who
may not be all that familiar with the
geography can kinda place it. Part yeah. When
(03:35):
getting over to Cambodia, Vietnam, that area over
there, what's in between
these things? Okay. So you've got India to
the west, and that's South Asia.
Right. And then you have Southeast, what's commonly
known as Southeast Asia Yep. Which are the
countries of Indochina,
like Vietnam, Cambodia,
Laos,
and Thailand. Mhmm. And Burma is right in
(03:58):
between
Southeast Asia and South Asia. Okay. Okay. And
that's actually been part of the issues that
the Burmese
and the Myanmar Government has been struggling with
for
centuries,
in fact.
So back to the back to the you
know. Are we Southeast Asian, or are we
South Asian
Heavily influenced by Hindu culture to the West
(04:22):
and Indian culture to the West. Mhmm.
And also, heavily influenced by
Indochinese
culture to the East and Chinese culture. Yeah.
And so,
they it's been difficult for them to establish
their own identity, and hence, whatever country was
there, oftentimes
throughout history was fragmented
(04:44):
and was more
aligned
not with its neighboring
identities, but rather with their own small regional
identity. So creating a nation there
was always a difficult thing because these different
tribes and different minorities
that lived together in the geography of Burma
(05:04):
were always fighting with each other. Right. And
and then you had co then you had
European
colonialists coming in and carving it up as
well based on these regional
differences that that they had. So they played
the, the alliances
to their own benefits. Mhmm. And it was
mainly the Britain the British. The British coming
in there in all in but now let
(05:25):
me ask you this then. Is the
and and I don't know if you know
this or not because it's it's not necessarily
it's somewhat cultural, but,
cultural maybe for other areas.
The the British came in and had a
great deal of influence, but the They colonized
the entire area. Okay. Right. And and then
then World War 2, especially,
(05:46):
World War 2 had an impact many places
around the world. The Middle East had a
a major impact there as to how we
construct how it was ended up being constructed.
Right. Where would how were these countries made,
which is which was the funky thing of,
like, a woman really drawing lines on a
map. Yeah. And and so did Burma,
was that impacted by that type of influence
(06:09):
in in, I I would say, more recent
times?
Yes. Although I think the I think that
they Meaning like World War 2 on, that
kind of thing. The the geography of the
of Burma, the actual borders of Burma had
been established prior to World War 2. They
had and remained that way, basically. Pretty much.
Okay. But those were probably made by the
British influence of I now
(06:30):
I I think the British had some influence,
but I think it was also determined
more primarily
by the the constant feuding between the different
minority groups within Burma. So there was kind
of an established
regions of that they each control, let's say.
Exactly. Exactly. Not an uncommon thing around the
planet. But Now the the political issue between
(06:51):
the name, Burma and Myanmar, is that the
the majority
of the people in Burma
are Burmese,
and they they see themselves as members of
that ethnic group. Okay. But there are many,
many other ethnic groups within that country. Right.
Right. Sure. And they always were fighting with
each other historically over the centuries.
(07:13):
And,
when
the generals took over, the current dictatorship of
the military Uh-huh. And this goes back to
the
19th,
well when the British left actually. Right, okay.
And it's been pretty much enforced
for the most part since then. Right.
(07:36):
When they came over, one of the things
they did back in the eighties was to
endear themselves with world,
opinion, which at the time was very much
against,
the the military
dictatorship.
Right.
They changed the name of the country from
Burma, which they felt was colonialist
because it because it didn't recognize all the
(07:58):
other groups
in Burma,
and that seemed to be a pattern with
a lot of colonial
exploitation
that you identified one group, and you called
that name the name of the country, that
group,
or or you gave that group special privileges
at the expense of all the other groups,
and that seemed to be a very colonial
(08:18):
pattern around the world. Sure. So the Burmese
government,
a dictatorship, a military dictatorship,
said we're gonna change the name from Burma
so that we can include all these other
groups Right. And call it Myanmar, which interestingly
in the Burmese language Yeah.
Is how you refer to
Burma.
It's Okay. It so it's simply a linguistic
(08:41):
Sure. It's it's basically just looping around on
itself. Yeah. It's a it's a linguistic What
a privilege.
Such a brilliant political move. Move. Right? Yeah.
Right?
And so it seems to be anti colonial,
but it's anti colonial with the end result
being we're you you We're still doing the
colonial. We're gonna keep us in charge. Right.
(09:01):
Right. Because it's about really got to power.
Yeah. Well, of course. Exactly. Yeah. So the
US government, I think, technically still, I'm I'm
not sure. But but up until very recently,
if they changed it,
referred always and was very careful to refer
to the to the to the country as
Burma. Mhmm.
Because they didn't wanna be affiliated with the
oppressive regime Sure. That was Interesting. Right. So
(09:23):
the anticolonial
twisting that goes on. Right? Interesting. Once again,
gets us to the the conclusion that humans
are very odd,
just very, very odd. I would say that's
true. Uh-huh. Yes. Yes. We are. Yeah. Yeah.
That's interesting, Dean. That all ties into I
I will admit I know
too little about Burma, Myanmar, and that ties
(09:44):
into what I know from more recent times
around,
the human rights abuses against the Rohingya
and Right. You know, Muslim Rohingya in in
Myanmar. Yeah. So as you go The conflicts
between the ethnic groups. Right. I mean, if
you take away national borders
and just look at the ethnicities
across the entire region from India right on
(10:06):
through
to Southeast Asia into Indonesia Hold hold on
hold on a second. Is it an option
to take away national borders? Well I mean,
I didn't realize that there is. Academic exercise.
Oh,
okay. Okay. And if you just look at
the ethnicities hoping there for a moment. At
the ethnicities, you have you have the influence
of the all of these groups very fluid,
(10:26):
you know, influencing each other over the centuries.
Sure. And so the Rohingya Wouldn't that be
wonderful? Go ahead. The Rohingya were
basically Muslim and and very close to India,
and they were always marginalized by the Hindus
in India and by the Buddhists in
Southeast Asia and the Burmese.
(10:47):
So they were always marginalized in that re
in where they were in their homeland, actually.
And,
most recently
most recently that reemerged
in when the Burmese, in an effort to
again try to try to create this unified
nation Mhmm.
(11:09):
Only under a terrible military dictatorship Right. Right.
Basically sacrificed the Rohingya.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you have And
played
come in and lead and for a few
years. Right? And had been an advocate for
human rights and democracy.
And I know I remember in the in
the States, in the US,
(11:30):
a lot of feelings that not enough Suu
Kyi wasn't doing enough to address the abuses
against the Rohingya.
And then in, I think, 2021, I wanna
say That's right. The dictatorship
just, you know, decided she had
sit cited some crimes, and now she is
in jail and is no longer in power.
I mean, the twists and turns of politics
Yeah. Here and and just human nature. I
(11:52):
mean, she wasn't the god that obviously so
many believed her to be.
At first in her career, she started out
as this human rights advocate. Nobel Peace Prize
winner. Nobel Peace Prize winner. Right? And and
then as it turns out, when she had
the opportunity to take political power, I mean,
she was basically imprisoned by the, by the
(12:14):
military
for,
oh, I think it was over 10 or
15 years. Long time. And then when things
opened up a little bit, when that window
happened
and she was able to take back
political control, she was always
the immensely popular leader of the people, and
when they had the opportunity to put her
(12:34):
in power again, she did,
and
once she took power,
then the issues that were always under the
surface in Burma
emerged again. Mhmm.
And she had to become
I guess I I'm not using this as
an apology,
but as a but as an explanation Right.
(12:54):
Some some way that I don't know. I
don't I have no information. Speculating as to
what you're saying. You know,
when you have political power, you have to
start to deal with realpolitik.
And I think,
one of the ways she was able to
maintain power and control was to suddenly start
to play these different ethnicities against each other,
which was a historic way of managing things
(13:17):
in Burma.
I'm not saying that's what she did and
I'm not saying it was right or wrong,
but it's an interpretation. It's a speculation. And
it's a pretty common I'm I'm sorry. Go
ahead. And and so she you know, she's
a human being who
did what she thought she had to do.
Right. Yeah. It's it's just yeah. It's
that's the the little that I know about
(13:37):
essentially about Myanmar. So I'm interested to sorry.
But I Well, you know, she comes from
your experiences there personally. Yeah. She comes from
Aung San Suu Kyi Suu Kyi. You know,
her father was the liberator of Burma against
the Brits. Mhmm. And he was assassinated.
Okay. See, I didn't know this. Okay. He
was assassinated,
and,
she was she spent her years,
(14:00):
in Britain,
and and she was educated in Britain. And
she married a British
guy.
And,
so she was very much at of the
elite
in both Burma and in the west in
many ways. She was a diplomat. She was
of that class,
and,
(14:20):
and her story, of course, is one of
great sacrifice.
Once her husband was assassinated
and and Burma did become independent,
and she had a life. She married the
British fellow, and they had 2 kids, I
believe.
She had to return. And she returned Right.
And she returned to lead, basically, a,
(14:43):
an an independence movement against the military and
to try to turn Burma into a democratic
nation. Right. Which, unfortunately, all too often does
not does not last Much harder than people
ever Some may have. Ever imagined.
Interrupted you earlier in terms of your your
(15:03):
travels to to So I had this wonderful
opportunity to try to experience something about this
nation that was absolutely closed. Yeah. You know?
Sure. Right? Couldn't visit,
couldn't go. And there we were in Southeast
Asia, and we were in Thailand, and we
took a short plane trip and plopped us
into Yangon. Mhmm. And
Formerly Rangoon? Rangoon. Okay. Rangoon. People might know
(15:24):
that. It's a former capital. Yes. Former capital.
In the south,
where the
really where,
the the plains people are. Mhmm. As as
you go north, it becomes more mountainous Mhmm.
And you get up to the border with
China.
But that's mountainous and fairly remote and lots
of different minorities scattered about in different hills
(15:44):
and valleys. Mhmm.
But as you go further south down by
Rangoon Yangon,
it's it's Burmese. It's essentially Burma. Okay. Right?
And the plane lands there and we get
out and we have have no idea what
to expect. I mean, just getting the visa
was an interesting experience.
How so?
(16:06):
We had to.
We had turned in our passport. He stroked
out on us. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm trying
to remember how it was. Yeah. Yeah. We
had to give up our passports to to
the Burmese representative. There was no Burmese representative
in the U. S. I think we had
to give it to the Swiss
to Switzerland, and they represent the Swiss. Of
(16:26):
course. Yeah. It was complicated. And for,
like, several months, we didn't have passports, which
for me was deadly because we were traveling
an enormous amount at the time. Right.
But, anyway, they they gave us back the
passports. We we land, and I remember getting
out into this
this, suddenly, we're in a different not only
(16:46):
a different land, but a different time zone,
a different time period.
Oh, oh, okay. It felt as if we
landed on the on the jungle's airstrip Uh-huh.
In the middle of nowhere. So you've gone
back in time is basically Back in time.
Yeah. And we get out of the plane.
Be interesting. And we walk up to a
Quonset hut. Mhmm. And there are these officials,
with, you know, big guns as always the
(17:07):
case in these countries.
And,
we had to turn over our passports once
again and wait an hour until they all
got stamped, and then they were all returned
to us. Mhmm. And we met our handler,
the person who was gonna be
taking us through
Rangoon, and we
were driven into the city and checked into
the
into into these into our hotel, which was
(17:30):
the best hotel
in the city, but it was very dilapidated,
very rundown.
Okay. And here we were in this,
this place that was redolent of of old
British colonialism
Oh, okay. Uh-huh.
Along with
incredible
Buddhist temples.
It just it's been the most Buddhist place
(17:52):
I've ever been Okay. In that
the people are extraordinarily,
tuned into
many of the
the ethics and the ethos of Buddhism Mhmm.
From the average guy on the street to
the priest in the temples.
And,
(18:13):
it struck me,
ironically, as this incredibly peaceful place
with, you know, where everyone is blissed out
and kind of smiling all the time. Uh-huh.
And nobody is overtly
aggressive or assertive
in their personal behavior. Uh-huh. Everything is
(18:34):
behind the screen of
peaceful balance. Uh-huh.
And yet it is an extraordinarily
oppressive place. Right.
And everyone is walking around
unable to say anything Right.
For fear of
basically
(18:54):
being taken off and hauled away and never
to be seen again. Right. Okay. Sure. Yeah.
So did you did you feel that there
was
that you were controlled in a way that
there was security all around? Oh, absolutely. Was
restricted. We could not walk
walk around the corner from the hotel without
being accompanied by our by our person. Okay.
(19:15):
Wow. Yeah.
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And
Where were you able to
venture out to given given those restrictions? Well,
we couldn't in in Rangoon itself. And I'm
sorry. How long were you there? I I
think we were there for almost 2 weeks.
Okay. Well, that's a good amount of time.
There's a lot to see in Burma. Uh-huh.
Okay? So, you know, Rangoon is the capital,
(19:36):
and what we did, our itinerary took us
really. Right?
Yangon still. I Thank you. Oh, no. They
did. The,
the the Tatmadaw, the military just moved Yeah.
The capital officially. Taw, I think, is the
capital, but it was a former capital. Yeah.
Yeah. But who knows? It's just
the town that they built up. Yeah. Administrative.
Administrative
center. Yeah. Center. Right.
(19:57):
Yangon is still the Cultural?
Cultural and also economic to the degree that
there's an economy. Okay. Sure. Interesting. Okay. Very,
very poor country. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. But rich in
in natural resources. I mean, China has the
Chinese are basically running the country now. They've
taken over. Oh, interesting. Okay. And they're they're
right on the Chinese border in the north.
(20:18):
Okay. And that's where all the poppies are.
That's where all the
that's where all so all of the opium
during the the days of the opium war
Right. Were was grown in the
the the northern portion. Triangle Yeah. Of China
and Burma.
And that's where the that's where heroin,
the world's heroin comes from. Much of it
(20:39):
anyway.
And And is that is that the economy
now? Well, yes. Much of it. And you
knew it even then Uh-huh. Okay. When we
were there. And then and also tremendous natural
resources. I mean, rubies
and precious stones.
The world's
a a significant percentage of the world's stones,
unfortunately, come from Burma. Right. Right. Okay. That's
(21:02):
become a
political issue around Of course it does. Sure.
The trade of these gems.
And it's always been this way. So it's
always been a place of interest for big
global powers,
but itself unable to really
turn itself into a nation state of of
any But as in in most cases, and
(21:23):
I'm not trying to put words in your
mouth, I'm but I'm trying to read from
what you're saying that
it's like so many other cases in around
the world where you have small countries that
can be taken advantage of by large Global
powers. Global powers of either political or corporate
Right. Powers, maybe both,
taking advantage of of their resources as opposed
(21:44):
to
the individuals who actually are there. Right. Right.
Okay. We couldn't talk about any of this,
any of the politics. Yeah. We were told
that you cannot talk about In other words,
there might be a knock on our door
here. I was about to say, are we
are we okay? No. No. No. When we
were there. I'm sorry. Someone to start the
car for us? There. Oh, I see. Okay.
Okay.
I'm I'm breathing again. It's alright. And if
(22:05):
you ask any and if you ask any
questions, you know, while we were there that
really would were it were not to be
asked. Borderline questions. Yeah. This very evasive you
got a big smile and an evasive answer
that didn't mean anything, and then they changed
the subject. That could be Washington, DC. So
but
Right. And you couldn't talk to people on
(22:26):
the street without without your without that guy
standing next to you. Right. I was gonna
say the consequences may be a little more
severe. For them.
A little bit. Let's hope. We're asking those
types of questions. I don't really hope. No.
Never mind. And and and if you and
if you put somebody in the position of
having to answer that kind of a question,
you're really endangering their lives. Know they're not
allowed to say a single name. Right. Right.
(22:47):
Right. And so and so they sure. Everyone's
at risk. But that's got to but that's
got to take us just kinda jumping back
into your experiences
and and the overall cultural aspects.
If you're living in any anywhere, and you
feel like if you say the wrong the
wrong thing,
then that is going to potentially put you
in jail. It's potentially going to put you
(23:08):
someplace where you might be there for a
very long time in a very difficult situation.
It's going to put you somewhere where you
never come back from. Right. Those kinds of
aspects, those are frightening.
And and so it's got to have almost
an immediate impact But the greater on the
culture. But the greater
concern, actually, is the danger that you're putting
(23:29):
the local people in by simply asking If
you are there
and and going in that direction and trying
and and leading them even just out of
curiosity because you're more likely more likely thing
is that you're privileged enough to get in
and get out with your Right. Right. Right.
But these people have to endure this Understand
that when you're there. Risk. If you're there,
you gotta understand that. That's a good point.
(23:50):
Yeah. And and I did in,
up in Mandalay.
Mhmm. So our our our because I because
I encountered
there
some local people that I was able to
speak with. Is that more in the north
than the mountains? That's in the north. Okay.
That's in the mountains. Okay. That became the
hill country of the British colonial elite. Okay.
Where they would retreat from the heat
(24:12):
and the tropics of the south. Oh, sure.
And and Mandalay was also the center of,
it was Mandalay and Bagan, actually. Okay. The
the cent which are 2 two cities very
near each other. The center of the ancient
imperial kingdom of
of of Pagan. Mhmm. We say p a
g a n,
(24:33):
but they pronounce it Bagan.
Bagan. Okay. No distinction between p's and b's.
The b's and b's. Yes. Right.
And when the Brits came, it became used
in English as pagan. Pagan. Because that So
any any
society that was non Christian Uh-huh.
Was pagan.
Interesting. I was gonna ask if that's where
(24:53):
that came from. Yeah. Well, it it saves
time from trying to understand someone else, you
know, if you can just label them and
move on. Non Christian. There's just pagan. There
you go. Yeah. Sure. Okay. And And it's
lesser. Yes. So this was the site from
the 9th cent I believe the 9th or
10th century onward
of a great kingdom, the the great,
pre colonial kingdom in Burma
(25:14):
of of Pagan.
Mandalay developed as the northern commercial center of
the of the country. Mhmm.
So Mandalay is a good sized city, but
it's in the north, and there's a river
that connects the 2,
Yang,
Rangoon and Mandalay
slash Bagan.
Mhmm. The river is the Irrawaddy. Okay.
(25:35):
One of the major rivers of of Southeast
Asia,
and,
it starts in the Himalayas in India. Mhmm.
Okay?
We had the immense privilege
of taking a
take to of going down the Irrawaddy
from Rangoon to Mandalay.
(25:56):
Mhmm. Wow. Interesting. And we spent our days
on the river
going up to Mandalay.
Now
on the way up,
we stopped in these little river towns. Mhmm.
Nothing much to see. The country is extraordinarily
poor,
but these little river towns
(26:16):
told a lot about and you could get
off and talk to the people.
And I remember one night Except you did
you still even in these little river towns,
you still had to be cautious for them
because
of what you might say and what they
might say? Yes. Absolutely true. Right. Still even
in those more remote areas. Right. But on
the boat, we didn't have a handler. Not
that I was aware of. Okay. And when
(26:38):
we got off the boat, we could walk
on our own. Okay.
And one night after dinner, we got off
on the boat in this little town, and
we discovered that they were having a poi.
And a poi is a,
Burmese,
entertainment.
And most poise I think they call them
zapuise, actually.
(26:59):
Most poise start in the evening, and they
go all night long, and they last until
the sun rises. Nice. And it brings
everybody in the town together. And these are
planned things, or they go on as they
develop throughout the throughout the night? Do you
know? What? No. I don't I don't know
how planned the
the whole play is.
(27:20):
They have different
performers lined up. Yeah. So I guess there
is a plan to it. And there is
a there is a master of ceremonies,
usually a man and a woman. Okay. And
they talk with each other back and forth,
and they banter a lot. And there's puppet
shows. There's singing. There's a dance thing. Variety
show of some form that goes on for
many hours. Right? Many hours. Exactly. It's it's
(27:42):
it's it's Ed Sullivan all night long. That's
incredible.
Right. That's a that's an old variety show
for those of you who are not
95 years old.
Uh-huh. And it's like like we are. Yeah.
Yeah. Alright. And will a play be done
for a special occasion? Or But but also
for not special occasion. Nice. Nice. Yeah. That
sounds great. So we suddenly
(28:03):
Hold hold on one just one second. Is
there but is there a is there a
underlying purpose
to when
this thing happens? Yes. There can be. In
other words, it can be around a religious
ceremony Okay. Buddhist
calendar date. Mhmm. Well, we just haven't done
one in a while. Or that too. Okay.
Right. From a way. Yeah. Yeah. And so
we're getting off the boat, and we're walking
through this little dockside area, and then,
(28:26):
we were approached
the the we were approached by lots of,
young women Mhmm.
With probably all sorts of things
in Let's let's let's see where this leads.
Alright. Alright. Again, this is the terrible dilemma
of of course Of course. Of
foreign situations.
Right. Yeah. Obviously. But interestingly,
(28:48):
just as a point aside, they were wearing,
this white makeup, which looked like,
white smudges on their cheekbones and their foreheads.
And,
all the women and girls were wearing this,
and we learned that this is called Tanaka.
Mhmm. Okay. And it's a Uh-huh. It it's
a form of cosmetics.
So it it supposedly
(29:09):
makes you look more beautiful. Yes. But it's
also it has lots of functions. It keeps
your skin
good nice and moisturized
Okay. And it's a sunscreen.
Oh, okay. Oh, okay. Alright. Multipurpose.
Yeah. Right.
And so we were kind of intrigued by
that. Yeah. And, and
and we were guided.
We we heard this noise and and and
(29:30):
but it sounded joyous.
And they took us into the play. And
this is after sunset.
And because we were absolutely the only Westerners
there Uh-huh. And there were thousands of local
people Wow. We were treated as royalty suddenly
Really? Overnight.
Okay.
And
literally overnight.
(29:51):
Yeah. Yeah. And,
we were taken pretty close to the stage,
which was all lit up. And they were
also,
like,
torches
all throughout so that you could kind of
see where you were.
And we were given kind of what we
felt was a seat of honor really on
these
and,
(30:11):
through through it throughout the time that we
were there and we were all we were
there for several hours. Yeah. You know, it's
all in Burmese, so we understood nothing. Mhmm.
But we were fascinated by what we were
experiencing. Mhmm. Sure. Right? Yeah. And I remember
this fellow
sidled up to us, next to us, and
he started using whatever English he had, and
(30:33):
he obviously
had learned some English. Okay. Yeah.
And he was a local guy and
we chatted in that very
earnest
and charming way where
everything you say is acknowledged as wonderful
and everything they say is is acknowledged as
(30:53):
wonderful because we're all making
an effort to overcome
and to cross
Mhmm. A river of differences
Mhmm. That is so deep Yes.
Profoundly cultural and linguistic
and class.
Right.
And so I find myself in those circumstances
(31:13):
developing
a genuine,
almost visceral affection
for for the relationship Mhmm.
Very quickly. And we had to leave eventually.
And I remember sitting there and at one
point in in in the Burmese way, he
took my hand and he held my hand
(31:35):
for a long, long time as we were
watching this performance. Mhmm. And it was time
for us to leave, and
we got up.
I thanked him
for inviting us and for treating us the
way he did. Mhmm.
And his response was,
when you go home,
don't forget about us.
(31:56):
Interesting.
Tell the world we're here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
I will never because they feel like they
were on the other side of the moon.
I will never forget those words. Sure. Well,
I felt like I was on the other
side of the moon. But you could go
back to the side where the sun shines.
Right. I was privileged enough to do that.
Absolutely. Right. Yeah.
(32:16):
And it that's that's that's very powerful. You
mentioned something, though, in the in the course
of that
where you said in the Burmese way, he
took your hand.
Can you give a can because we don't
have cameras. Can you give a a a
a definition of that more specifically? We were
sitting side by side, and he just took
my hand. Hold on. But in in there's
not a specific way or anything. He just
(32:37):
took your hand for a period of time.
That if 2 men do that in many
parts of the world, it means something else.
United States. It could mean something else. Sure.
Meant nothing but friendship.
Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. Wonderful story. I think,
yeah. And it and it to me, it
it goes to show that there are these
rivers of differences, right, that you're all waiting
(32:57):
through. At the same time, there's not only
the commonality of we're getting together and celebrating
and it's joyous and we're, you know, this
communal experience that we see
happening in lots of different ways across all
different countries and cultures, but also just that
desire to be seen in that case,
right, and also to connect. Right? To hold
hands and be together physically, but also to
(33:18):
learn from one another. Actually, making of you
being there, and you're excited to be there
and building those bridges. An actual physical
connection Yeah. Right. As well as a kind
of a spiritual one. Yeah. The most important
one. Very much so. I think there's there's
a lot to be learned for people of
reaching out
to understand the other person regardless.
(33:39):
I mean, there are obviously
lines you can draw about how people treat
people, but nonetheless,
if when when those factors don't come into
play,
the extremes,
you can
that that reaching out
has a has a real impact
emotionally,
spiritually
on on the people involved.
(34:00):
I have to say that because I've been
privileged enough to to go so many places
and to do this this kind of work,
that I've learned to evaluate,
situations where I might actually be in danger
because I don't want to be naive about
the fact that -Sure. -there are there are
agendas out there in the world that can
(34:21):
endanger me. Mhmm.
And,
regardless of of how open and willing I
am to
to to be in certain situations, I I
could be foolish enough also to endanger myself
if I weren't savvy.
So I'm always kind of evaluating
how open do I be,
(34:42):
or how much do I trust
this situation,
And I have to say that I've
after all after all of this, I come
down on the side of
know as much as you can before you
go so that you don't put yourself in
harm's way. Yes. Definitely.
(35:04):
But if you decide to go based on
that,
you are always safer trying to reach across
that river. Mhmm. Mhmm. And that and that
the similarities
will will always overcome the differences
if you stay open and knowledgeable
about where you are. Yes. Yeah. And I
felt very safe at that point. Yeah. I
(35:25):
really do.
We continued our journey from,
mid Irrawaddy,
onto
up to the north to the Mandalay, and
hence, I'm wearing the shirt Right.
That of the Moustache Brothers.
This is a t shirt that I got
(35:45):
in the garage of the house of the
mustache brothers who lived in Mandalay.
Uh-huh. And the mustache brothers
were 3 guys. I think right now, they're
just 2 of them. Yeah. I think one
of them died.
3 guys who got themselves into serious trouble
with the deal with the military.
Really? Because they would start putting on shows,
(36:09):
that were basically subversive and
and were anti military. Yeah. Anti Yeah. And
they were on the
the first show that they did in their
house,
in the garage, in Mandalay,
no. The first show was in Rangoon, actually.
They were invited by Aung San Suu Kyi.
Oh, okay. And they did and they did
(36:30):
their performance. They're performers. They're jugglers and clowns.
And it's a comedy. Right? Is that is
that the root? Yeah. It's a comedy. Balu
Zah. Those are the 2 brothers' names, I
think, if I'm reading your shirt correctly. Corporal
Lau, I think. There's another
one. Yeah. So,
she invited them to put on the show,
to do their show for her. Okay.
She was subsequently,
(36:51):
I think, later that year, arrested.
They were shut down.
Yeah. They were put in prison Oh, wow.
For, I think, 7 years. Wow.
And then they
were released when things started to open up
a little bit again. Okay. And they were
given rights to perform their show
only in their garage
(37:12):
in Mandalay
and only to foreigners.
Interesting.
Okay. Every
Really to foreigners.
Every night
I can I can see? They play to
a, quote, unquote, full house, which is about
25 people in Yeah. In the garage. Sure.
That's right. And when we went to Mandalay,
we bought tickets Yeah. When we when we
went, and it's all foreigners. Yeah. Yeah. There
(37:34):
are no locals. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I'm not
even sure
control and power. I'm I'm not even sure
locals would want to go because they wanted
the danger. Dangerous. Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
And I I remember sitting there. The show's
in English
because it's all foreigners. Right. And so one
could say it's a it was the most
unusual
touristic show I've ever been to
(37:56):
because, you know, you can go anywhere in
the world and you can get a you
can sit down in a, like, a club
and see the tourist show of the local
dancing. Sure. Yes. Of a tourist show of
how to do tango in Buenos Aires. Right.
Right. Yep. Yep. And and the place is
full of just tourists. Yeah. And it's fun
Yeah. To some degree. Right? But this was
(38:18):
political dissent Yeah. Uh-huh.
In
Burma. Yeah.
Same. And
and it was and it was a tourist
show, but it was kind of edgy. Right.
Sure. And they were allowed to do this
only because this was the the deal between
them and the junta. Yeah. Right. So you're
not influencing the locals.
(38:38):
No. Right. Their power isn't being
isn't put at risk is how they're looking
at it. Right. Sure. And and the what's
interesting to me with that also is that
it's saying,
we don't believe you will have enough impact
Sure. On the foreigners Mhmm. To to to
have a any kind of global reaction Oh,
we don't even care. To who we were.
Right. Right.
(38:58):
So but the local people, that could drive
up, descent. Yeah. And that is a much
more real thing for the existing government. I
remember one of their jokes, and and the
show itself was kind of, like,
a little bit stale at times, and and
other times it was like, woah.
This is am I gonna be in trouble
here when I walk out of here?
(39:19):
You know? And every now and they said,
we may have visits by the local police.
Mhmm. You know, that's okay. Yep. Everything everybody's
gonna be cool. It's it's alright. Uh-huh. So
we're all kinda sitting there waiting to see
who shows up. It's gonna happen. Yeah. Yeah.
Nobody did. Right. Right. We were there that
night anyway. Right. And,
I remember one of the jokes he said.
He said, and please, as visitors to Myanmar,
(39:41):
please don't steal. He said, because the government
doesn't like the competition.
Nice. Very good. Very, very good.
Well but that's fascinating.
The,
by the by the way, for those of
you who don't know, mustache
would be the way we basically would be
pronouncing
mustache. And they do have sort of outsides
(40:04):
mustaches. They do. They do. Uh-huh. What does
it say where the two sentences that are
on the bottom? Shirt that Dean is wearing
right now. Yeah.
If you have not seen our dancing,
they do dancing. They do a a lot
of,
slapstick comedy. Uh-huh. You cannot say you have
been to Mandalay. There you go. Okay. Well,
you can say you've been there. Yes. I've
(40:24):
been there. I've not seen the dancing, so
I have nothing. Cannot say that. Nope. Nope.
But I'd like to go. Yeah. Yeah. See
it. There's very large pictures of the 3
gentlemen on the T shirt too there. It's
very fascinating. It's a bunch of shirts. They
all have mustaches. Yeah. So that's the
or moustaches
is if we if we choose.
Alright. Well, great.
Very interesting. I I think so too. I
(40:45):
think
I've I know I've learned a lot today,
and that's that's saying something for this podcast.
Oh, I thought you just you just know
everything. It's No. No. No. What I'm saying
is that we've we've actually taught somebody something
here today. Oh, good. Well, we, Dean Yeah.
I was gonna say really. Dean has done
it. Yeah. I just wanna add that we
sat here going, oh, yeah. What? Cool. We
(41:07):
were And I grew a mustache, by the
way. No. I can't. During during it. When
we were on when we left Mandalay and
got back on the boat Mhmm. And we
had to go back down
river again. We were I believe we were
going downriver to Bagan. Okay.
Bagan is one of the most
spiritual
iridescent places I've ever been. Mhmm. It's
(41:27):
it's absolutely
quiet.
There are 10
well, there were
when Bagan was the capital of of,
of the Empire
back in the Middle Ages.
There were over 10,000
pagodas.
Wow. And there are still today, I think,
something like 25100.
(41:49):
Wow. Wow. And you walk a plane
and you just walk amongst these pagodas. Woah.
Over 2,000
of them.
Wow. It is the most remarkable place. Yeah.
Wow.
Very interesting. Spectacular. And and, honestly, something we
may need to investigate
farther,
but not today. Not today? No. No. But
(42:12):
just keep that picture in mind of all
of this because it's wow. May may may
you may you have peaceful visions.
Mhmm. Toren, thank you for your,
insights
in in this today and for your, involvement.
Dean,
a a wonderful podcast, in my opinion. I
think, very, very insightful. Yeah. Well, thank you.
And, it was a fantastic trip, but it's
(42:34):
something that was I was, again, very privileged
to make and and,
pleased that we were able to take advantage
of it. Except I was told on the
boat when I put my hand in the
river Mhmm. To remove my hand as quickly
as possible because the most poisonous snakes
in the world were in that river. Oh
my. They didn't want me to Well, that
(42:54):
was nice of them because that could've been
kind of interesting to walk right to the
other realm. Happens. Yeah. Let's see what happens
to this You would've been really spiritual at
that point. Exactly. Yeah. Then you certainly would
not have forgotten your your time there. There
we go. But fortunately have it anyway. Fortunately,
he got his hand out of the water,
and he is his hand. He's still Dean
Foster. I'm still Tom Peterson. But I put
(43:15):
my foot in my mouth. Well Well, what
else is there? That is not new. Not
news.
And we're here because
Oops. Oops.
Your culture show.
Smell?
Yeah.
(43:37):
Before you run off and disappear back into
your own cultures,
let me give you some information about something
we really want you to know, and that's
how to get hold of us.
Give us your questions,
oopscultureshow@gmail.com.
And be sure to follow us on whatever
(43:59):
social media you use at oopscultureshow.
Thanks.
Bob Hope and Bing Crosby did a whole
bunch of what they used to refer to
as road The road movies. Yeah. They were
all done in Los Angeles, I believe. I'm
pretty sure. Okay. But they all were supposedly
going to some relatively exotic or very exotic
location.
And they got into all sorts of problems,
and there was a love interest, which would
usually fought back and forth between the 2.
(00:21):
And then there would be a resolution usually
that neither one would get the love interest.
Uh-huh. And I'm probably really over summarizing, but
that was it. But they were very, very
popular, and they they made several of them.
This is back in the forties or 19
forties. I would say the forties, maybe the
early fifties. Fifties. Yeah. Yeah. Mhmm. Somewhere in
there. Well, The Road to Mandalay. I remember
that title. Yes. The Road to Mandalay is
definitely one. That was one of them. And
(00:42):
Mandalay is in is in Burma. Was was
in Burma at the time and now is
in It's still in Burma. Oh, okay. Yeah.
It's it's the north it's the main northern
city in Myanmar.
Okay. Except we refer to it generally now
as Myanmar. Right?
This is complicated. Okay. Well, then maybe we
should talk about this. Well, you know, why
don't we? Because there's probably a cultural aspect
(01:04):
to it. Right? Who who knows? Well, let's
investigate that because
Dean Foster,
we're here talking with you about that. And
I'm Tom Peterson, and we're here with Torren
again Hi.
And our producer, and we're all here to
play,
oops,
your culture
(01:25):
showin'.
So Burma,
Myanmar
are not 2 different places. They are the
same place. Correct? They are. They are the
same place, but we're talking about terms that
have been politicized.
Yes. And and and there and one of
the reasons this is interesting. We're talking about
We'll be the judge of that. Go ahead.
(01:46):
Is
you always are. Right? And everybody who's listening
always is. They should be. Right. If they're
paying attention, are you paying attention? I was
I was very fortunate to travel to Myanmar
slash Burma Uh-huh. In that very small window
that opened up where both the United States
government
and the Burmese government
(02:06):
allowed visitors
to go in. And I I think this
was back
in the in the early part of Obama's
administration.
I'm I'm having I'm not very good with
dates, so I I but I but in
the back of my mind, I was coming
up with this this
realization that I was approaching the anniversary
of making this extraordinary trip Mhmm. Which happened,
(02:30):
so I would say this is about 12
years ago. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Which happened, I
think,
around the same time that I that I
I was working in,
in Bangkok. Mhmm. I I had worked in
Bangkok and so
I was able to,
attach at this little side tour from Thailand
to to Burma. Oh. And, and then we
(02:53):
went from Burma to Laos and Cambodia. It
was an so it turned out to be
quite an extraordinary,
trip. And I'm sorry, Dean. Just to quickly,
interrupt and and ask. I don't mean to
interrupt. I do. There it goes. But this
is the time we're missing. Is just west
of Thailand,
just to put it place it geographically.
It's between between Thailand and India, actually. Ah,
(03:14):
okay. Can you That's helpful. Can you give
here here's a quick quiz for you. Okay?
A little visualization
map quiz.
Can you take us from India
through along there, like your trip?
What are the countries right along there? I'm
just thinking this way people out there who
may not be all that familiar with the
geography can kinda place it. Part yeah. When
(03:35):
getting over to Cambodia, Vietnam, that area over
there, what's in between
these things? Okay. So you've got India to
the west, and that's South Asia.
Right. And then you have Southeast, what's commonly
known as Southeast Asia Yep. Which are the
countries of Indochina,
like Vietnam, Cambodia,
Laos,
and Thailand. Mhmm. And Burma is right in
(03:58):
between
Southeast Asia and South Asia. Okay. Okay. And
that's actually been part of the issues that
the Burmese
and the Myanmar Government has been struggling with
for
centuries,
in fact.
So back to the back to the you
know. Are we Southeast Asian, or are we
South Asian
Heavily influenced by Hindu culture to the West
(04:22):
and Indian culture to the West. Mhmm.
And also, heavily influenced by
Indochinese
culture to the East and Chinese culture. Yeah.
And so,
they it's been difficult for them to establish
their own identity, and hence, whatever country was
there, oftentimes
throughout history was fragmented
(04:44):
and was more
aligned
not with its neighboring
identities, but rather with their own small regional
identity. So creating a nation there
was always a difficult thing because these different
tribes and different minorities
that lived together in the geography of Burma
(05:04):
were always fighting with each other. Right. And
and then you had co then you had
European
colonialists coming in and carving it up as
well based on these regional
differences that that they had. So they played
the, the alliances
to their own benefits. Mhmm. And it was
mainly the Britain the British. The British coming
in there in all in but now let
(05:25):
me ask you this then. Is the
and and I don't know if you know
this or not because it's it's not necessarily
it's somewhat cultural, but,
cultural maybe for other areas.
The the British came in and had a
great deal of influence, but the They colonized
the entire area. Okay. Right. And and then
then World War 2, especially,
(05:46):
World War 2 had an impact many places
around the world. The Middle East had a
a major impact there as to how we
construct how it was ended up being constructed.
Right. Where would how were these countries made,
which is which was the funky thing of,
like, a woman really drawing lines on a
map. Yeah. And and so did Burma,
was that impacted by that type of influence
(06:09):
in in, I I would say, more recent
times?
Yes. Although I think the I think that
they Meaning like World War 2 on, that
kind of thing. The the geography of the
of Burma, the actual borders of Burma had
been established prior to World War 2. They
had and remained that way, basically. Pretty much.
Okay. But those were probably made by the
British influence of I now
(06:30):
I I think the British had some influence,
but I think it was also determined
more primarily
by the the constant feuding between the different
minority groups within Burma. So there was kind
of an established
regions of that they each control, let's say.
Exactly. Exactly. Not an uncommon thing around the
planet. But Now the the political issue between
(06:51):
the name, Burma and Myanmar, is that the
the majority
of the people in Burma
are Burmese,
and they they see themselves as members of
that ethnic group. Okay. But there are many,
many other ethnic groups within that country. Right.
Right. Sure. And they always were fighting with
each other historically over the centuries.
(07:13):
And,
when
the generals took over, the current dictatorship of
the military Uh-huh. And this goes back to
the
19th,
well when the British left actually. Right, okay.
And it's been pretty much enforced
for the most part since then. Right.
(07:36):
When they came over, one of the things
they did back in the eighties was to
endear themselves with world,
opinion, which at the time was very much
against,
the the military
dictatorship.
Right.
They changed the name of the country from
Burma, which they felt was colonialist
because it because it didn't recognize all the
(07:58):
other groups
in Burma,
and that seemed to be a pattern with
a lot of colonial
exploitation
that you identified one group, and you called
that name the name of the country, that
group,
or or you gave that group special privileges
at the expense of all the other groups,
and that seemed to be a very colonial
(08:18):
pattern around the world. Sure. So the Burmese
government,
a dictatorship, a military dictatorship,
said we're gonna change the name from Burma
so that we can include all these other
groups Right. And call it Myanmar, which interestingly
in the Burmese language Yeah.
Is how you refer to
Burma.
It's Okay. It so it's simply a linguistic
(08:41):
Sure. It's it's basically just looping around on
itself. Yeah. It's a it's a linguistic What
a privilege.
Such a brilliant political move. Move. Right? Yeah.
Right?
And so it seems to be anti colonial,
but it's anti colonial with the end result
being we're you you We're still doing the
colonial. We're gonna keep us in charge. Right.
(09:01):
Right. Because it's about really got to power.
Yeah. Well, of course. Exactly. Yeah. So the
US government, I think, technically still, I'm I'm
not sure. But but up until very recently,
if they changed it,
referred always and was very careful to refer
to the to the to the country as
Burma. Mhmm.
Because they didn't wanna be affiliated with the
oppressive regime Sure. That was Interesting. Right. So
(09:23):
the anticolonial
twisting that goes on. Right? Interesting. Once again,
gets us to the the conclusion that humans
are very odd,
just very, very odd. I would say that's
true. Uh-huh. Yes. Yes. We are. Yeah. Yeah.
That's interesting, Dean. That all ties into I
I will admit I know
too little about Burma, Myanmar, and that ties
(09:44):
into what I know from more recent times
around,
the human rights abuses against the Rohingya
and Right. You know, Muslim Rohingya in in
Myanmar. Yeah. So as you go The conflicts
between the ethnic groups. Right. I mean, if
you take away national borders
and just look at the ethnicities
across the entire region from India right on
(10:06):
through
to Southeast Asia into Indonesia Hold hold on
hold on a second. Is it an option
to take away national borders? Well I mean,
I didn't realize that there is. Academic exercise.
Oh,
okay. Okay. And if you just look at
the ethnicities hoping there for a moment. At
the ethnicities, you have you have the influence
of the all of these groups very fluid,
(10:26):
you know, influencing each other over the centuries.
Sure. And so the Rohingya Wouldn't that be
wonderful? Go ahead. The Rohingya were
basically Muslim and and very close to India,
and they were always marginalized by the Hindus
in India and by the Buddhists in
Southeast Asia and the Burmese.
(10:47):
So they were always marginalized in that re
in where they were in their homeland, actually.
And,
most recently
most recently that reemerged
in when the Burmese, in an effort to
again try to try to create this unified
nation Mhmm.
(11:09):
Only under a terrible military dictatorship Right. Right.
Basically sacrificed the Rohingya.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you have And
played
come in and lead and for a few
years. Right? And had been an advocate for
human rights and democracy.
And I know I remember in the in
the States, in the US,
(11:30):
a lot of feelings that not enough Suu
Kyi wasn't doing enough to address the abuses
against the Rohingya.
And then in, I think, 2021, I wanna
say That's right. The dictatorship
just, you know, decided she had
sit cited some crimes, and now she is
in jail and is no longer in power.
I mean, the twists and turns of politics
Yeah. Here and and just human nature. I
(11:52):
mean, she wasn't the god that obviously so
many believed her to be.
At first in her career, she started out
as this human rights advocate. Nobel Peace Prize
winner. Nobel Peace Prize winner. Right? And and
then as it turns out, when she had
the opportunity to take political power, I mean,
she was basically imprisoned by the, by the
(12:14):
military
for,
oh, I think it was over 10 or
15 years. Long time. And then when things
opened up a little bit, when that window
happened
and she was able to take back
political control, she was always
the immensely popular leader of the people, and
when they had the opportunity to put her
(12:34):
in power again, she did,
and
once she took power,
then the issues that were always under the
surface in Burma
emerged again. Mhmm.
And she had to become
I guess I I'm not using this as
an apology,
but as a but as an explanation Right.
(12:54):
Some some way that I don't know. I
don't I have no information. Speculating as to
what you're saying. You know,
when you have political power, you have to
start to deal with realpolitik.
And I think,
one of the ways she was able to
maintain power and control was to suddenly start
to play these different ethnicities against each other,
which was a historic way of managing things
(13:17):
in Burma.
I'm not saying that's what she did and
I'm not saying it was right or wrong,
but it's an interpretation. It's a speculation. And
it's a pretty common I'm I'm sorry. Go
ahead. And and so she you know, she's
a human being who
did what she thought she had to do.
Right. Yeah. It's it's just yeah. It's
that's the the little that I know about
(13:37):
essentially about Myanmar. So I'm interested to sorry.
But I Well, you know, she comes from
your experiences there personally. Yeah. She comes from
Aung San Suu Kyi Suu Kyi. You know,
her father was the liberator of Burma against
the Brits. Mhmm. And he was assassinated.
Okay. See, I didn't know this. Okay. He
was assassinated,
and,
she was she spent her years,
(14:00):
in Britain,
and and she was educated in Britain. And
she married a British
guy.
And,
so she was very much at of the
elite
in both Burma and in the west in
many ways. She was a diplomat. She was
of that class,
and,
(14:20):
and her story, of course, is one of
great sacrifice.
Once her husband was assassinated
and and Burma did become independent,
and she had a life. She married the
British fellow, and they had 2 kids, I
believe.
She had to return. And she returned Right.
And she returned to lead, basically, a,
(14:43):
an an independence movement against the military and
to try to turn Burma into a democratic
nation. Right. Which, unfortunately, all too often does
not does not last Much harder than people
ever Some may have. Ever imagined.
Interrupted you earlier in terms of your your
(15:03):
travels to to So I had this wonderful
opportunity to try to experience something about this
nation that was absolutely closed. Yeah. You know?
Sure. Right? Couldn't visit,
couldn't go. And there we were in Southeast
Asia, and we were in Thailand, and we
took a short plane trip and plopped us
into Yangon. Mhmm. And
Formerly Rangoon? Rangoon. Okay. Rangoon. People might know
(15:24):
that. It's a former capital. Yes. Former capital.
In the south,
where the
really where,
the the plains people are. Mhmm. As as
you go north, it becomes more mountainous Mhmm.
And you get up to the border with
China.
But that's mountainous and fairly remote and lots
of different minorities scattered about in different hills
(15:44):
and valleys. Mhmm.
But as you go further south down by
Rangoon Yangon,
it's it's Burmese. It's essentially Burma. Okay. Right?
And the plane lands there and we get
out and we have have no idea what
to expect. I mean, just getting the visa
was an interesting experience.
How so?
(16:06):
We had to.
We had turned in our passport. He stroked
out on us. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm trying
to remember how it was. Yeah. Yeah. We
had to give up our passports to to
the Burmese representative. There was no Burmese representative
in the U. S. I think we had
to give it to the Swiss
to Switzerland, and they represent the Swiss. Of
(16:26):
course. Yeah. It was complicated. And for,
like, several months, we didn't have passports, which
for me was deadly because we were traveling
an enormous amount at the time. Right.
But, anyway, they they gave us back the
passports. We we land, and I remember getting
out into this
this, suddenly, we're in a different not only
(16:46):
a different land, but a different time zone,
a different time period.
Oh, oh, okay. It felt as if we
landed on the on the jungle's airstrip Uh-huh.
In the middle of nowhere. So you've gone
back in time is basically Back in time.
Yeah. And we get out of the plane.
Be interesting. And we walk up to a
Quonset hut. Mhmm. And there are these officials,
with, you know, big guns as always the
(17:07):
case in these countries.
And,
we had to turn over our passports once
again and wait an hour until they all
got stamped, and then they were all returned
to us. Mhmm. And we met our handler,
the person who was gonna be
taking us through
Rangoon, and we
were driven into the city and checked into
the
into into these into our hotel, which was
(17:30):
the best hotel
in the city, but it was very dilapidated,
very rundown.
Okay. And here we were in this,
this place that was redolent of of old
British colonialism
Oh, okay. Uh-huh.
Along with
incredible
Buddhist temples.
It just it's been the most Buddhist place
(17:52):
I've ever been Okay. In that
the people are extraordinarily,
tuned into
many of the
the ethics and the ethos of Buddhism Mhmm.
From the average guy on the street to
the priest in the temples.
And,
(18:13):
it struck me,
ironically, as this incredibly peaceful place
with, you know, where everyone is blissed out
and kind of smiling all the time. Uh-huh.
And nobody is overtly
aggressive or assertive
in their personal behavior. Uh-huh. Everything is
(18:34):
behind the screen of
peaceful balance. Uh-huh.
And yet it is an extraordinarily
oppressive place. Right.
And everyone is walking around
unable to say anything Right.
For fear of
basically
(18:54):
being taken off and hauled away and never
to be seen again. Right. Okay. Sure. Yeah.
So did you did you feel that there
was
that you were controlled in a way that
there was security all around? Oh, absolutely. Was
restricted. We could not walk
walk around the corner from the hotel without
being accompanied by our by our person. Okay.
(19:15):
Wow. Yeah.
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And
Where were you able to
venture out to given given those restrictions? Well,
we couldn't in in Rangoon itself. And I'm
sorry. How long were you there? I I
think we were there for almost 2 weeks.
Okay. Well, that's a good amount of time.
There's a lot to see in Burma. Uh-huh.
Okay? So, you know, Rangoon is the capital,
(19:36):
and what we did, our itinerary took us
really. Right?
Yangon still. I Thank you. Oh, no. They
did. The,
the the Tatmadaw, the military just moved Yeah.
The capital officially. Taw, I think, is the
capital, but it was a former capital. Yeah.
Yeah. But who knows? It's just
the town that they built up. Yeah. Administrative.
Administrative
center. Yeah. Center. Right.
(19:57):
Yangon is still the Cultural?
Cultural and also economic to the degree that
there's an economy. Okay. Sure. Interesting. Okay. Very,
very poor country. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. But rich in
in natural resources. I mean, China has the
Chinese are basically running the country now. They've
taken over. Oh, interesting. Okay. And they're they're
right on the Chinese border in the north.
(20:18):
Okay. And that's where all the poppies are.
That's where all the
that's where all so all of the opium
during the the days of the opium war
Right. Were was grown in the
the the northern portion. Triangle Yeah. Of China
and Burma.
And that's where the that's where heroin,
the world's heroin comes from. Much of it
(20:39):
anyway.
And And is that is that the economy
now? Well, yes. Much of it. And you
knew it even then Uh-huh. Okay. When we
were there. And then and also tremendous natural
resources. I mean, rubies
and precious stones.
The world's
a a significant percentage of the world's stones,
unfortunately, come from Burma. Right. Right. Okay. That's
(21:02):
become a
political issue around Of course it does. Sure.
The trade of these gems.
And it's always been this way. So it's
always been a place of interest for big
global powers,
but itself unable to really
turn itself into a nation state of of
any But as in in most cases, and
(21:23):
I'm not trying to put words in your
mouth, I'm but I'm trying to read from
what you're saying that
it's like so many other cases in around
the world where you have small countries that
can be taken advantage of by large Global
powers. Global powers of either political or corporate
Right. Powers, maybe both,
taking advantage of of their resources as opposed
(21:44):
to
the individuals who actually are there. Right. Right.
Okay. We couldn't talk about any of this,
any of the politics. Yeah. We were told
that you cannot talk about In other words,
there might be a knock on our door
here. I was about to say, are we
are we okay? No. No. No. When we
were there. I'm sorry. Someone to start the
car for us? There. Oh, I see. Okay.
Okay.
I'm I'm breathing again. It's alright. And if
(22:05):
you ask any and if you ask any
questions, you know, while we were there that
really would were it were not to be
asked. Borderline questions. Yeah. This very evasive you
got a big smile and an evasive answer
that didn't mean anything, and then they changed
the subject. That could be Washington, DC. So
but
Right. And you couldn't talk to people on
(22:26):
the street without without your without that guy
standing next to you. Right. I was gonna
say the consequences may be a little more
severe. For them.
A little bit. Let's hope. We're asking those
types of questions. I don't really hope. No.
Never mind. And and and if you and
if you put somebody in the position of
having to answer that kind of a question,
you're really endangering their lives. Know they're not
allowed to say a single name. Right. Right.
(22:47):
Right. And so and so they sure. Everyone's
at risk. But that's got to but that's
got to take us just kinda jumping back
into your experiences
and and the overall cultural aspects.
If you're living in any anywhere, and you
feel like if you say the wrong the
wrong thing,
then that is going to potentially put you
in jail. It's potentially going to put you
(23:08):
someplace where you might be there for a
very long time in a very difficult situation.
It's going to put you somewhere where you
never come back from. Right. Those kinds of
aspects, those are frightening.
And and so it's got to have almost
an immediate impact But the greater on the
culture. But the greater
concern, actually, is the danger that you're putting
(23:29):
the local people in by simply asking If
you are there
and and going in that direction and trying
and and leading them even just out of
curiosity because you're more likely more likely thing
is that you're privileged enough to get in
and get out with your Right. Right. Right.
But these people have to endure this Understand
that when you're there. Risk. If you're there,
you gotta understand that. That's a good point.
(23:50):
Yeah. And and I did in,
up in Mandalay.
Mhmm. So our our our because I because
I encountered
there
some local people that I was able to
speak with. Is that more in the north
than the mountains? That's in the north. Okay.
That's in the mountains. Okay. That became the
hill country of the British colonial elite. Okay.
Where they would retreat from the heat
(24:12):
and the tropics of the south. Oh, sure.
And and Mandalay was also the center of,
it was Mandalay and Bagan, actually. Okay. The
the cent which are 2 two cities very
near each other. The center of the ancient
imperial kingdom of
of of Pagan. Mhmm. We say p a
g a n,
(24:33):
but they pronounce it Bagan.
Bagan. Okay. No distinction between p's and b's.
The b's and b's. Yes. Right.
And when the Brits came, it became used
in English as pagan. Pagan. Because that So
any any
society that was non Christian Uh-huh.
Was pagan.
Interesting. I was gonna ask if that's where
(24:53):
that came from. Yeah. Well, it it saves
time from trying to understand someone else, you
know, if you can just label them and
move on. Non Christian. There's just pagan. There
you go. Yeah. Sure. Okay. And And it's
lesser. Yes. So this was the site from
the 9th cent I believe the 9th or
10th century onward
of a great kingdom, the the great,
pre colonial kingdom in Burma
(25:14):
of of Pagan.
Mandalay developed as the northern commercial center of
the of the country. Mhmm.
So Mandalay is a good sized city, but
it's in the north, and there's a river
that connects the 2,
Yang,
Rangoon and Mandalay
slash Bagan.
Mhmm. The river is the Irrawaddy. Okay.
(25:35):
One of the major rivers of of Southeast
Asia,
and,
it starts in the Himalayas in India. Mhmm.
Okay?
We had the immense privilege
of taking a
take to of going down the Irrawaddy
from Rangoon to Mandalay.
(25:56):
Mhmm. Wow. Interesting. And we spent our days
on the river
going up to Mandalay.
Now
on the way up,
we stopped in these little river towns. Mhmm.
Nothing much to see. The country is extraordinarily
poor,
but these little river towns
(26:16):
told a lot about and you could get
off and talk to the people.
And I remember one night Except you did
you still even in these little river towns,
you still had to be cautious for them
because
of what you might say and what they
might say? Yes. Absolutely true. Right. Still even
in those more remote areas. Right. But on
the boat, we didn't have a handler. Not
that I was aware of. Okay. And when
(26:38):
we got off the boat, we could walk
on our own. Okay.
And one night after dinner, we got off
on the boat in this little town, and
we discovered that they were having a poi.
And a poi is a,
Burmese,
entertainment.
And most poise I think they call them
zapuise, actually.
(26:59):
Most poise start in the evening, and they
go all night long, and they last until
the sun rises. Nice. And it brings
everybody in the town together. And these are
planned things, or they go on as they
develop throughout the throughout the night? Do you
know? What? No. I don't I don't know
how planned the
the whole play is.
(27:20):
They have different
performers lined up. Yeah. So I guess there
is a plan to it. And there is
a there is a master of ceremonies,
usually a man and a woman. Okay. And
they talk with each other back and forth,
and they banter a lot. And there's puppet
shows. There's singing. There's a dance thing. Variety
show of some form that goes on for
many hours. Right? Many hours. Exactly. It's it's
(27:42):
it's it's Ed Sullivan all night long. That's
incredible.
Right. That's a that's an old variety show
for those of you who are not
95 years old.
Uh-huh. And it's like like we are. Yeah.
Yeah. Alright. And will a play be done
for a special occasion? Or But but also
for not special occasion. Nice. Nice. Yeah. That
sounds great. So we suddenly
(28:03):
Hold hold on one just one second. Is
there but is there a is there a
underlying purpose
to when
this thing happens? Yes. There can be. In
other words, it can be around a religious
ceremony Okay. Buddhist
calendar date. Mhmm. Well, we just haven't done
one in a while. Or that too. Okay.
Right. From a way. Yeah. Yeah. And so
we're getting off the boat, and we're walking
through this little dockside area, and then,
(28:26):
we were approached
the the we were approached by lots of,
young women Mhmm.
With probably all sorts of things
in Let's let's let's see where this leads.
Alright. Alright. Again, this is the terrible dilemma
of of course Of course. Of
foreign situations.
Right. Yeah. Obviously. But interestingly,
(28:48):
just as a point aside, they were wearing,
this white makeup, which looked like,
white smudges on their cheekbones and their foreheads.
And,
all the women and girls were wearing this,
and we learned that this is called Tanaka.
Mhmm. Okay. And it's a Uh-huh. It it's
a form of cosmetics.
So it it supposedly
(29:09):
makes you look more beautiful. Yes. But it's
also it has lots of functions. It keeps
your skin
good nice and moisturized
Okay. And it's a sunscreen.
Oh, okay. Oh, okay. Alright. Multipurpose.
Yeah. Right.
And so we were kind of intrigued by
that. Yeah. And, and
and we were guided.
We we heard this noise and and and
(29:30):
but it sounded joyous.
And they took us into the play. And
this is after sunset.
And because we were absolutely the only Westerners
there Uh-huh. And there were thousands of local
people Wow. We were treated as royalty suddenly
Really? Overnight.
Okay.
And
literally overnight.
(29:51):
Yeah. Yeah. And,
we were taken pretty close to the stage,
which was all lit up. And they were
also,
like,
torches
all throughout so that you could kind of
see where you were.
And we were given kind of what we
felt was a seat of honor really on
these
and,
(30:11):
through through it throughout the time that we
were there and we were all we were
there for several hours. Yeah. You know, it's
all in Burmese, so we understood nothing. Mhmm.
But we were fascinated by what we were
experiencing. Mhmm. Sure. Right? Yeah. And I remember
this fellow
sidled up to us, next to us, and
he started using whatever English he had, and
(30:33):
he obviously
had learned some English. Okay. Yeah.
And he was a local guy and
we chatted in that very
earnest
and charming way where
everything you say is acknowledged as wonderful
and everything they say is is acknowledged as
(30:53):
wonderful because we're all making
an effort to overcome
and to cross
Mhmm. A river of differences
Mhmm. That is so deep Yes.
Profoundly cultural and linguistic
and class.
Right.
And so I find myself in those circumstances
(31:13):
developing
a genuine,
almost visceral affection
for for the relationship Mhmm.
Very quickly. And we had to leave eventually.
And I remember sitting there and at one
point in in in the Burmese way, he
took my hand and he held my hand
(31:35):
for a long, long time as we were
watching this performance. Mhmm. And it was time
for us to leave, and
we got up.
I thanked him
for inviting us and for treating us the
way he did. Mhmm.
And his response was,
when you go home,
don't forget about us.
(31:56):
Interesting.
Tell the world we're here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
I will never because they feel like they
were on the other side of the moon.
I will never forget those words. Sure. Well,
I felt like I was on the other
side of the moon. But you could go
back to the side where the sun shines.
Right. I was privileged enough to do that.
Absolutely. Right. Yeah.
(32:16):
And it that's that's that's very powerful. You
mentioned something, though, in the in the course
of that
where you said in the Burmese way, he
took your hand.
Can you give a can because we don't
have cameras. Can you give a a a
a definition of that more specifically? We were
sitting side by side, and he just took
my hand. Hold on. But in in there's
not a specific way or anything. He just
(32:37):
took your hand for a period of time.
That if 2 men do that in many
parts of the world, it means something else.
United States. It could mean something else. Sure.
Meant nothing but friendship.
Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. Wonderful story. I think,
yeah. And it and it to me, it
it goes to show that there are these
rivers of differences, right, that you're all waiting
(32:57):
through. At the same time, there's not only
the commonality of we're getting together and celebrating
and it's joyous and we're, you know, this
communal experience that we see
happening in lots of different ways across all
different countries and cultures, but also just that
desire to be seen in that case,
right, and also to connect. Right? To hold
hands and be together physically, but also to
(33:18):
learn from one another. Actually, making of you
being there, and you're excited to be there
and building those bridges. An actual physical
connection Yeah. Right. As well as a kind
of a spiritual one. Yeah. The most important
one. Very much so. I think there's there's
a lot to be learned for people of
reaching out
to understand the other person regardless.
(33:39):
I mean, there are obviously
lines you can draw about how people treat
people, but nonetheless,
if when when those factors don't come into
play,
the extremes,
you can
that that reaching out
has a has a real impact
emotionally,
spiritually
on on the people involved.
(34:00):
I have to say that because I've been
privileged enough to to go so many places
and to do this this kind of work,
that I've learned to evaluate,
situations where I might actually be in danger
because I don't want to be naive about
the fact that -Sure. -there are there are
agendas out there in the world that can
(34:21):
endanger me. Mhmm.
And,
regardless of of how open and willing I
am to
to to be in certain situations, I I
could be foolish enough also to endanger myself
if I weren't savvy.
So I'm always kind of evaluating
how open do I be,
(34:42):
or how much do I trust
this situation,
And I have to say that I've
after all after all of this, I come
down on the side of
know as much as you can before you
go so that you don't put yourself in
harm's way. Yes. Definitely.
(35:04):
But if you decide to go based on
that,
you are always safer trying to reach across
that river. Mhmm. Mhmm. And that and that
the similarities
will will always overcome the differences
if you stay open and knowledgeable
about where you are. Yes. Yeah. And I
felt very safe at that point. Yeah. I
(35:25):
really do.
We continued our journey from,
mid Irrawaddy,
onto
up to the north to the Mandalay, and
hence, I'm wearing the shirt Right.
That of the Moustache Brothers.
This is a t shirt that I got
(35:45):
in the garage of the house of the
mustache brothers who lived in Mandalay.
Uh-huh. And the mustache brothers
were 3 guys. I think right now, they're
just 2 of them. Yeah. I think one
of them died.
3 guys who got themselves into serious trouble
with the deal with the military.
Really? Because they would start putting on shows,
(36:09):
that were basically subversive and
and were anti military. Yeah. Anti Yeah. And
they were on the
the first show that they did in their
house,
in the garage, in Mandalay,
no. The first show was in Rangoon, actually.
They were invited by Aung San Suu Kyi.
Oh, okay. And they did and they did
(36:30):
their performance. They're performers. They're jugglers and clowns.
And it's a comedy. Right? Is that is
that the root? Yeah. It's a comedy. Balu
Zah. Those are the 2 brothers' names, I
think, if I'm reading your shirt correctly. Corporal
Lau, I think. There's another
one. Yeah. So,
she invited them to put on the show,
to do their show for her. Okay.
She was subsequently,
(36:51):
I think, later that year, arrested.
They were shut down.
Yeah. They were put in prison Oh, wow.
For, I think, 7 years. Wow.
And then they
were released when things started to open up
a little bit again. Okay. And they were
given rights to perform their show
only in their garage
(37:12):
in Mandalay
and only to foreigners.
Interesting.
Okay. Every
Really to foreigners.
Every night
I can I can see? They play to
a, quote, unquote, full house, which is about
25 people in Yeah. In the garage. Sure.
That's right. And when we went to Mandalay,
we bought tickets Yeah. When we when we
went, and it's all foreigners. Yeah. Yeah. There
(37:34):
are no locals. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I'm not
even sure
control and power. I'm I'm not even sure
locals would want to go because they wanted
the danger. Dangerous. Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
And I I remember sitting there. The show's
in English
because it's all foreigners. Right. And so one
could say it's a it was the most
unusual
touristic show I've ever been to
(37:56):
because, you know, you can go anywhere in
the world and you can get a you
can sit down in a, like, a club
and see the tourist show of the local
dancing. Sure. Yes. Of a tourist show of
how to do tango in Buenos Aires. Right.
Right. Yep. Yep. And and the place is
full of just tourists. Yeah. And it's fun
Yeah. To some degree. Right? But this was
(38:18):
political dissent Yeah. Uh-huh.
In
Burma. Yeah.
Same. And
and it was and it was a tourist
show, but it was kind of edgy. Right.
Sure. And they were allowed to do this
only because this was the the deal between
them and the junta. Yeah. Right. So you're
not influencing the locals.
(38:38):
No. Right. Their power isn't being
isn't put at risk is how they're looking
at it. Right. Sure. And and the what's
interesting to me with that also is that
it's saying,
we don't believe you will have enough impact
Sure. On the foreigners Mhmm. To to to
have a any kind of global reaction Oh,
we don't even care. To who we were.
Right. Right.
(38:58):
So but the local people, that could drive
up, descent. Yeah. And that is a much
more real thing for the existing government. I
remember one of their jokes, and and the
show itself was kind of, like,
a little bit stale at times, and and
other times it was like, woah.
This is am I gonna be in trouble
here when I walk out of here?
(39:19):
You know? And every now and they said,
we may have visits by the local police.
Mhmm. You know, that's okay. Yep. Everything everybody's
gonna be cool. It's it's alright. Uh-huh. So
we're all kinda sitting there waiting to see
who shows up. It's gonna happen. Yeah. Yeah.
Nobody did. Right. Right. We were there that
night anyway. Right. And,
I remember one of the jokes he said.
He said, and please, as visitors to Myanmar,
(39:41):
please don't steal. He said, because the government
doesn't like the competition.
Nice. Very good. Very, very good.
Well but that's fascinating.
The,
by the by the way, for those of
you who don't know, mustache
would be the way we basically would be
pronouncing
mustache. And they do have sort of outsides
(40:04):
mustaches. They do. They do. Uh-huh. What does
it say where the two sentences that are
on the bottom? Shirt that Dean is wearing
right now. Yeah.
If you have not seen our dancing,
they do dancing. They do a a lot
of,
slapstick comedy. Uh-huh. You cannot say you have
been to Mandalay. There you go. Okay. Well,
you can say you've been there. Yes. I've
(40:24):
been there. I've not seen the dancing, so
I have nothing. Cannot say that. Nope. Nope.
But I'd like to go. Yeah. Yeah. See
it. There's very large pictures of the 3
gentlemen on the T shirt too there. It's
very fascinating. It's a bunch of shirts. They
all have mustaches. Yeah. So that's the
or moustaches
is if we if we choose.
Alright. Well, great.
Very interesting. I I think so too. I
(40:45):
think
I've I know I've learned a lot today,
and that's that's saying something for this podcast.
Oh, I thought you just you just know
everything. It's No. No. No. What I'm saying
is that we've we've actually taught somebody something
here today. Oh, good. Well, we, Dean Yeah.
I was gonna say really. Dean has done
it. Yeah. I just wanna add that we
sat here going, oh, yeah. What? Cool. We
(41:07):
were And I grew a mustache, by the
way. No. I can't. During during it. When
we were on when we left Mandalay and
got back on the boat Mhmm. And we
had to go back down
river again. We were I believe we were
going downriver to Bagan. Okay.
Bagan is one of the most
spiritual
iridescent places I've ever been. Mhmm. It's
(41:27):
it's absolutely
quiet.
There are 10
well, there were
when Bagan was the capital of of,
of the Empire
back in the Middle Ages.
There were over 10,000
pagodas.
Wow. And there are still today, I think,
something like 25100.
(41:49):
Wow. Wow. And you walk a plane
and you just walk amongst these pagodas. Woah.
Over 2,000
of them.
Wow. It is the most remarkable place. Yeah.
Wow.
Very interesting. Spectacular. And and, honestly, something we
may need to investigate
farther,
but not today. Not today? No. No. But
(42:12):
just keep that picture in mind of all
of this because it's wow. May may may
you may you have peaceful visions.
Mhmm. Toren, thank you for your,
insights
in in this today and for your, involvement.
Dean,
a a wonderful podcast, in my opinion. I
think, very, very insightful. Yeah. Well, thank you.
And, it was a fantastic trip, but it's
(42:34):
something that was I was, again, very privileged
to make and and,
pleased that we were able to take advantage
of it. Except I was told on the
boat when I put my hand in the
river Mhmm. To remove my hand as quickly
as possible because the most poisonous snakes
in the world were in that river. Oh
my. They didn't want me to Well, that
(42:54):
was nice of them because that could've been
kind of interesting to walk right to the
other realm. Happens. Yeah. Let's see what happens
to this You would've been really spiritual at
that point. Exactly. Yeah. Then you certainly would
not have forgotten your your time there. There
we go. But fortunately have it anyway. Fortunately,
he got his hand out of the water,
and he is his hand. He's still Dean
Foster. I'm still Tom Peterson. But I put
(43:15):
my foot in my mouth. Well Well, what
else is there? That is not new. Not
news.
And we're here because
Oops. Oops.
Your culture show.
Smell?
Yeah.
(43:37):
Before you run off and disappear back into
your own cultures,
let me give you some information about something
we really want you to know, and that's
how to get hold of us.
Give us your questions,
oopscultureshow@gmail.com.
And be sure to follow us on whatever
(43:59):
social media you use at oopscultureshow.
Thanks.
Popular Podcasts
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
Introducing… Aubrey O’Day Diddy’s former protege, television personality, platinum selling music artist, Danity Kane alum Aubrey O’Day joins veteran journalists Amy Robach and TJ Holmes to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation. Join them throughout the trial as they discuss, debate, and dissect every detail, every aspect of the proceedings. Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise, as only she is qualified to do given her first-hand knowledge. From her days on Making the Band, as she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be the opposite of the glitz and glamour. Listen throughout every minute of the trial, for this exclusive coverage. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial, an iHeartRadio podcast.
Betrayal: Season 4
Karoline Borega married a man of honor – a respected Colorado Springs Police officer. She knew there would be sacrifices to accommodate her husband’s career. But she had no idea that he was using his badge to fool everyone. This season, we expose a man who swore two sacred oaths—one to his badge, one to his bride—and broke them both. We follow Karoline as she questions everything she thought she knew about her partner of over 20 years. And make sure to check out Seasons 1-3 of Betrayal, along with Betrayal Weekly Season 1.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.