December 26, 2024 • 40 mins
It’s a holiday-filled time of year and a heavy travel time across cultures, dear listeners; as such, we’ve been receiving your questions about how not to be the “ugly American (or fill in your country of choice) tourist” while traveling abroad. On this Boxing Day, Dean and Tom pause their gifting to unpack fears about this, and then to wrap up practical advice about it into a festive 40-minute episode! Plus: A holiday-themed Wordplay to shepherd us into 2025. Enjoy your holidays, thank you for listening, and we’ll be back soon with new episodes in the new year!
***Subscribe to Dean’s Substack here for Dean’s “UGLY (Fill in Your Country of Choice) TOURISTS.” article, plus CultureQuizzes, “Culture’s Consequences” articles, and much more!***
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Hosts: Dean Foster & Tom Peterson
Audio Production: Tom Peterson & Torin Peterson
Music: “Little Idea” – Bensound.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Boxing Day today. It's Boxing Day? I think
it is. My boxing gloves. Yeah. I don't
have any boxes with me. Because I wear
the boxing gloves to to built to to
wrap up the presents. Why why is it
called Boxing Day?
I don't know.
What I feel so much. I've had so
many different I don't think there's a definitive
version of No. There's no definitive and I've
(00:21):
asked my British friends, and I get all
different different answers as well. Yeah. But no
surprise there.
If you knew them the way I knew
them.
Your your particular friends or the Brits as
a whole? No. My particular friends. I see.
Okay. That's that's good. We just unalienated
an entire island. One one explanation is that
it had to do back in the Victorian
(00:41):
days. If you were of the of the
wealthy class, you would give boxes of gifts
the day after
Christmas
to these house servants. That is what I'm
reading here on on Britannica. Yeah. On second,
we have Britannica. But then I also heard
that it was the day that things got
boxed up
after the Christmas celebration day. Oh, okay. And
(01:01):
celebrations. Uh-huh.
So I'm not sure exactly, but but if
you get enough meanings for whatever the
even even if if they're not correct,
we call it Boxing Day. Well,
enjoy, I guess.
Is it is it a joyful thing? Then
there are those 5 people who simply wake
up that day and say, let's go out
(01:22):
and just have a boxing match. Yeah. Yes.
You should wear the boxing gloves coming from.
There you go. That's what I do. Good.
Every year on December 26th.
Excellent. Yes. It's a, but there's also other
celebrations going on around this time of the
year. It is a laboratory time of year.
It is holiday rich
time. Yes.
Mhmm. And longer and shorter ones that that
(01:43):
take over several days and or basically an
eve going into the actual holiday,
of various around various different reasons. Whatever they
whatever they are, whatever you're celebrating,
have a very healthy, happy, safe
holiday. Yes.
And And it's a it's a heavy travel
time, right, with all the celebrating going on.
(02:03):
Certainly. It can be. There is a lot
of travel. Of course, everybody is traveling. Not
everybody, but a lot of people take their
holidays at at this time. And holidays are
very culturally
related.
And right? Am I wrong with that? You're
giving me a look like I just fell
from Mars or something. Culturally related. Culturally related.
What does that mean? Is that like their
in laws?
Wow.
(02:24):
Wow. Holidays as in laws. Wow. It's
like it's like they're coming at me from
all sides. Yeah.
But we think we understand what you mean.
We think we we think we do, you
blithering idiot.
You mean to say that there is a
cultural piece to this. Well
(02:44):
Oh, is there? Well, why is this?
Oops.
Your culture show.
Well, I'm already ticked off at both of
you here. I'm sorry. So I'm sorry. No.
I apologize.
No. I you don't need to apologize. Oh,
okay. Then I take it back. Well, good.
(03:06):
Because it's not sincere. And we're listening
for family celebrating. We're listening now to Tom
Peterson,
my co host, and And Torin, our producer
I guess. Just go off on their own.
I'll be back in about 5 minutes. Okay.
Alright. You guys have a break. Dean Foster
who's supposed to know what the heck we're
talking about.
(03:29):
But we we've decided, no. Don't need him
anymore. Nope. Okay. We're fine.
No. No. We need him and watch him.
Of course, we need him. He's the lifeblood
of this entire podcast
for us. Buying this? I I No. Just
keep saying what you're saying. I think you
have raised an important issue, which we should
take a look at now. Oh, okay. Thank
you for for raising this. Yes. Certainly. People
are traveling. Certainly. They're crossing cultures. Yes. There
(03:51):
you go. And one of their their key
concerns, at least I've I've heard some from
some people. Yeah. And and and it's been
a concern that's been brought to me by
a lot of folks Okay.
Is they don't want to be perceived as
the,
in this case, for many of them, the
quote, unquote ugly American Yes. When they're abroad.
Uh-huh. Okay. Yeah. Because they're at least recognizing
(04:13):
that their behavior may be seen in ways
that is not,
appropriate in the place that they are going
to. Right. I I worry about that. Yeah.
And that it is so that it is
going to be negatively
impact those around them in whatever culture they've
gone into. Right. Right.
It's not not that it's just being kind
(04:34):
of casually observed, but that it's it's actually
something that is not going to be received
well at all. Well, it's due to a
level of ignorance you're bringing in your own
cultural mores and not wanting to And kind
of implying them upon Right. That culture. Right.
Exactly. Exactly. In in expectation that yours, it's
the it the idea being the American, the
the kind of
stereotypical thing would be the American going into,
(04:56):
let's say, France
and going in and and expecting everyone in
France to speak English. Sure. Or any or
any And if or any country. I'm just
using an example. And and and and, like
and then yelling
at a louder voice speaking slower and louder
in order to get them to understand, which,
of course, is nonsense.
Right. Right. That that would qualify very strongly
(05:19):
as an ugly American at that point, but
it's not just Americans who do this kind
of thing. Yeah. I think I think anybody
who goes to into a particular culture with
an ignorance of
of what that culture is all about
can be perceived as, quote, unquote, ugly. If
you if you travel somewhere and you don't
understand the culture and don't know what the
(05:40):
expectations are about behavior Mhmm. You will inevitably
break some of those taboos, and you'll be
perceived as, quote, unquote, ugly. I don't think
Americans have a lock on this at all.
Right. You know, I think Sure. I think
throughout history,
we've seen this issue of of
either
through some form of tourism
(06:02):
or historically, actually, some other reasons for cultures
to be
visited upon exploitation
Right. Mainly Right. War and and invasion. Mhmm.
The other side is always seen as ugly
because they don't understand the culture that they're
now interacting with. Right. And and in some
cases, don't care to understand. In many cases,
(06:24):
don't care to. Yeah. I think the fact
that there is a level of concern about
this where people go, I don't want I
don't wanna be perceived this way. What do
I do to not be perceived this way?
It's kind of an admission of awareness. It's
a positive. And I I can I can
see it as a positive thing? I think
if you go in not even knowing that
or not even caring Not caring. Yeah. Is
(06:45):
even an issue, that maybe my behavior won't
be received well. Not knowing is an initial
thing. I think that not caring to make
any adaptions
adaptations
so that you can
adjust to whatever the other culture is. Whatever
the reason for this story not to insult
people Right. Things like that. Respect. I I
think whatever the reason for this sensitivity, and
(07:05):
there is there is a good outcome to
this. Because by raising awareness Mhmm. Then we
can come up with a solution. Sure. Right?
Yep. And and the solution simply stated is
know before you go. Yes. And try to
know as much as you can about the
culture that you're going into so that there
will be you'll be aware of the fact
that there may be certain behaviors that for
(07:26):
you are fine
that may not be seen that way in
the place where you are.
But
but also and and and I and I
wanna make this point because it's a cultural
point.
Wait a minute. Hold on. Hold on. Ring
the bell. It's a cultural point. There we
go. Okay.
I think this expression culture bell. This is
(07:47):
an expression of I don't wanna be seen
as ugly. Therefore, what do I do?
And the fact that it's an expression that's
been
that it's been expressed by U. S. Americans
mainly
is an interesting cultural phenomenon. Okay. Yes. Okay.
Say more. Because
(08:08):
Americans
as a cultural phenomenon
want to be liked.
Now and this is not necessarily
the case in other cultures. Gotcha. Okay. We
have a high level of needing to be
liked. Okay. And and there's a cultural reason
for this. I'm not talking about the psychology.
I'm talking about the cultural sociology of this.
(08:29):
There
you know, one of one of the things
we talk about when we talk about
differences in cultures is that there's all cultures
are fruity in some way, but some are
coconuts and some are peaches. Mhmm. Mhmm. You
know, and
the
the American is the peach
where there is this
assumption that
even though we might be different, we're really
(08:51):
all the same. So we make it real
easy to build a relationship upfront when you
start with somebody. It's easy to bite into
the peach. No. I mean, sweet. Gotcha. And
and and and fuzzy and enticing.
Yeah. Right.
And only after you eat away at it
a little bit do you get to the
hard pit Yeah. Center. Yeah. And that's not
so easy to crack. You're really not getting
(09:12):
to the very depths Right. Of the culture.
A lot of cultures are just the opposite.
They're the coconuts. Right.
It's hard right up front until you get
till you plug away and put in the
time and make the effort, then you crack
the shell. And then once you're in there,
it's soft and warm and and delicious and
delicious. Right? Okay.
And and so if you're a peach,
(09:34):
what you want to do is give out
the impression
that you're a likable guy. You know,
and how do you and likability
is often premised on similarity
that
That we're really all the same
unless you dig deep enough, then
you're gonna discover my differences.
The coconut says, We're not all the same,
(09:56):
and here are my differences right up front.
And you're gonna have to prove yourself to
me before I'm gonna even give you any
of the sweet stuff that's on the inside.
This need for likability
can be connected to the historical and cultural
origins of the culture
in the US.
And and and I'm not,
disparaging this in any way. I think this
(10:18):
is can be very charming, and we can
use this cultural fact about us,
us meaning US Americans, to to endear ourselves
to others,
particularly when we understand where we're coming from,
when we when we look for likability,
and
and when we understand that we may be
in a culture where this isn't as important
(10:39):
to them.
Mhmm. It's important to you. Right. Right. To
me,
but not to them. Right. Yes.
And that's key. Right? I think that is
key. Having that curiosity to know what's going
on outside of yourself.
Outside of yourself. Right. So maybe it's there's
not such an innocent motive for it. But
at the end of the day, it's good
to know that US Americans feel this way
(11:00):
and want a level of of More and
more. They're tying we're tying into that feeling
that you're talking about, that likability.
I think, in in in the global,
aspect.
And I think that's something that isn't necessarily
that's been there.
And but also the the world is it's
a different place than it was almost x
number of years ago. Yes. So much more
(11:22):
interconnected.
Yes. And it's much easier to have contact
with other cultures
and other people Much easier. From without going
anywhere.
And and so you have that, and it's
also easier to travel
for the most part. Mhmm. Okay? It's it's
easier to travel around
so that you are now getting things where
(11:44):
your people are getting out there and seeing
more of it. I think I don't know
the numbers to this. We can probably find
them. But I would guess that the percentage
of people who travel outside of their their
of our our home in the United States,
the United States culture
outside of that, across the borders into other
countries,
is larger now than it's probably ever been.
(12:05):
Yeah. I I I think that's tourism is
the world's largest industry. I would imagine it
probably is. Yes. When you think of all
the ramifications of tourism. Right. All the aspects
of it. It. So and when you're and
it's interesting in the sense that because we
can communicate across oceans,
across continents
in in a in a in a in
a speed at the speed of light now,
(12:26):
and we can do that without leaving our
culture,
it becomes a little different aspect than maybe
the one of, okay, I've flown to China.
Therefore, it is as a as a citizen
of the United States from the from the
US culture, it is my responsibility
to understand the Chinese culture and maybe the
regional Chinese culture because it will be different.
(12:48):
It's a very large country in different areas
of the country. To understand that and try
to be sensitive to it and and treat
it with respect. That already is a remarkable,
advancement, I think. I think it is. Taking
that step. Yes. Right? Now the the For
whatever the reason. If it's for likability or
for whatever the reason. Right. Well, sure. And
I think
(13:08):
you make a very, very strong point, I
believe, in the idea of of of
we want to feel
good about ourselves. We want others, the people
there, to feel good about us.
And that is gonna be to likability. It's
going to be self esteem.
However,
we can bring some people in who know
more about that. But never regardless,
(13:29):
it's something that is very important to us,
I think, in the US quite often. Yeah.
I think it is. And it's translating that
way more now than I think it ever
has been. I I think there's there's also
a darker motive to this, and and that
motive is fear.
Mhmm. Yeah. Sure. Now the question becomes, what
are you afraid of? Mhmm. Mhmm. Alright. And
and in the in the past, before there
(13:50):
was, I think, this awareness of of the
issue,
which is now on the table, and we've
been talking about it,
in in the past, the fear was dealt
with by making
this uncomfortable
feeling
that I have
the fault of the other. Oh, yeah. Right.
So yeah. So if I can if I
I'm I'm now in a place that I
(14:12):
don't understand
Right. Which is making me uncomfortable Mhmm.
But it's not my fault.
I'm not gonna I'm not going to take
on the responsibility of of making it. So
I'm gonna do what I want. I displace
it on the people I am now in.
So that that's the old colonial
that results in the colonial Very much. Very
much. Very much. Systems. Right? Very much. And
(14:33):
it's often the result of encountering peoples
basically because of war and exploitation. Right. Right.
Right. And and justify trying to justify it,
all the horrible things that that means Yeah.
By saying, well, they're uncivilized.
They deserve it. We're bringing a higher level
of living to you. Exactly. Right. Right. Right.
It happens to be. Yes. I'm I'm righteous.
(14:54):
You're pagan. Whatever. Right. So
if you can displace your
fear
on them, you don't have to go any
further. And it and it and it justifies
get the efforts. It justifies your behavior. Absolutely.
Yeah. Yes. And then there's sort of the
opposing fear. Right.
And and I think the the real fear,
though, before it gets displaced
(15:14):
is the fear that you have about
being uncomfortable
with something and with people who are different.
Mhmm. And
if you own that fear and
and and then
unpack that Mhmm.
And try to understand what's making me uncomfortable.
What is it that I need to do?
(15:35):
What is it that I need to know?
What
is it that I need to do? What
is it that I need to know? Now
that's an inner journey that most people aren't
willing to take. Mhmm.
Because because it means,
at the end of the day, admitting that
I don't know
what I should know in order to be
in this place. Mhmm.
And that's taking responsibility for it. Right. Right?
(15:58):
And most people don't wanna do that. No.
They don't. I'd rather I'd rather shift it
off onto the other person. Even within cultures,
there's an aspect of that,
because of of the the differences within that.
So when you get into something where there's
a significant difference in cultures
You mean, like, within a particular country? Yeah.
Uh-huh. I think I I I think if
(16:18):
we really look at I mean, the United
States is a large country.
China is a very large country, Russia, so
on and so forth, Brazil.
These are very massive areas,
But you get down to Geographically large. Exactly.
Right. But you get down to even smaller
geographically smaller countries
where you would think there's not that many
differences. There's still differences there. Right. And so
(16:38):
but you so if those things are going
to impact you, at some point, they're going
and and it's much less likely that you're
going to recognize
what you're doing
to within that particular country,
or that particular region,
that you are creating a problem for yourself
quite often. I mean, if you're we're talking
(16:59):
we've talked business. We're talking
travel for holidays, travel for vacation.
But travel for business,
this it's vital. And if you're coming around
and if you're paying attention to this
podcast, there's a good chance you've come around
to more the way of thinking that you're
talking about. That you that you want to
be part of of that culture in the
(17:20):
sense you wanna recognize it, and you don't
wanna insult it. You want to be aware
of the differences
and so on. But and and I think
that actually happens. Are you aware that there's
differences between this portion of the country and
that portion of the country? Right. You're it's
really important talking about a very important issue,
Tom, which I think is, you know, gonna
come up time and time again no matter
how we look at these issues that we
(17:42):
explore in this podcast,
which is the differences in cultures within
the
boundaries of that geography. Yes. And and the
the phenomenon, really fascinating thing is that
every single culture
has these intracultural
differences. Sure.
Big ones. Geographically, it's easier to see in
(18:02):
a big, big geography. Sure. But even little
ones.
I mean, North
Northern Britain and Southern. I was about to
say we've got North Italy and South. North
Italy. Definitely. The North South divide is all
around the world. Everywhere. By the way, if
you if you don't know or you don't
remember, we've talked about it in a couple
of podcasts, so go back and listen to
those. And and in some countries, it's the
(18:22):
east and west divide, which is more Sure.
Or maybe all all 4. Or all 4.
Yes. Or 3. And then there's 2. And
then you dig deeper, and then there's everywhere,
there's an urban and rural difference. Right. Right.
And there are differences between
Everywhere. Generations
over 40 and under 30.
And, you know, the list goes you can
slice and dice any one culture
(18:43):
in lots of different ways. Don't need, and
I think this is a point I've heard
you make in the past, But this is
you don't need to be bound up
by concerns. And again, I think people listening
to a podcast like this would be more
apt to want to be able to understand
other cultures. Well, so I think this is
really important. That's that's the question I wanna
get to is whether you're traveling, you know,
(19:04):
from the south to north, north to south
of a country or traveling to a different
country, and you have that and I do
think many people have that what I would
what I think of is a very healthy
fear of, wanna make sure I'm traveling to
this place of being respectful,
and really being able to build connections with
others, which I might cut up completely if
I say something or do something that's gonna
(19:24):
be considered really gauche and unacceptable.
So that you mentioned in terms of tips,
Dean, know before you go. Right? So do
your research as much as you can. As
much as you can. But, obviously, there's elements
you're just even reading books or looking online,
you're just not gonna know about until you're
in in a certain place. Right? So to
that, like But pause to that for a
second. The good news in this is that
there's tons of information out there. There's a
(19:44):
lot out there. Right. Yep.
Yep. Yes. So for things that come up
in the moment,
what are your what are your thoughts? What
are your insights on, okay, I just learned
that this is something I should be respecting
or doing that I didn't realize before. How
to how to make that adjustment? Right? So
you can avoid being the ugly fill in
the count fill in the country of choice.
Yeah. I mean, deal with your discomfort Mhmm.
(20:06):
And and admit it.
First, you know, the way you deal with
the problem is admit it first. You gotta
admit, I got a problem. Mhmm. Then you
can take the 12 steps. Right.
But the first step is I got a
problem. Yeah. Yeah. And it's yours, and you
gotta own it. So
I mean, something as simple as just saying
to the person across the table who,
(20:26):
you know, that you're talking with,
Hey,
what just happened?
Help me unpack this because
and you can do this in a humble
way where you you are already
gathering forgiveness
by putting it right out there and saying,
you know, I'm not from your country,
(20:47):
so I really don't know very much. There's
nothing wrong with that. That's absolute truth, you
know? And
and and what the other person is saying
in their head when they hear you say
that, they're
saying, that's right because I don't know much
about your country either. Yeah. And now you're
building that connection. Right. Yep. Right. Yep. And
so just get that out there and say,
(21:08):
you know, what just happened? Because just explain
to me. I don't know how things work
here. Right. You know? And then explain your
what it is that's making you feel funny.
Did did that have a certain meaning that
I heard it this way, but how did
you hear it? You know? And that makes
a lot of sense because I think the
less communication is
(21:28):
happening, the more assumptions, presumptions,
everything. Absolutely. Right. Yes. So let's just be
open to say, I you know, I'm
not here. Please walk me. You know, I
wanna I wanna learn about the culture, and
that's gonna be, I think, probably, you know,
99 out of a 100 times taken with
gratitude. Yeah. I mean, did I just make
a mistake? I just said something and everybody's
laughing. Yeah. Yeah. And are they laughing at
(21:50):
me?
Did I just say something fun? You know,
like, what is it?
I that's happened to me. I mean, faux
pas are built around. Right. Which we've talked
about. Right? Right. Exactly. And everybody So, like,
your,
pena is is the story right now? In
Europe,
yes, I think it I think that's what
I called him.
And it turned out I called him Mr.
Penis in front of 500 people.
(22:12):
And I said, of course, I didn't know.
Right. Yep.
Right. But but you were very open about
it. And and not of and I think
to be. Yeah. And there's a very real
that because what we're talking you talked about
fear. The fear of making a mistake
can be as harmful to this Mhmm. As
the fear, or the the fear of not
letting on
(22:33):
or in feeling like you just have to
apply your knowledge in your way, and it's
up to them to figure it out. Right.
If you don't wanna feel that fear, the
the logical step is to to shut that
down and make it everybody else's way. Right.
Yeah. And it's and and it and the
thing is too, and I I don't think
I think this is correct,
(22:55):
but it's
you're not going to regardless of what country
you're in or what culture you're in, you
are not going to always find someone, although
I think you're much more likely to with
the lines of communication like we're talking about,
asking for assistance, asking for help, a certain
humility on your part about all of this
and keeping it open, you won't always get
(23:15):
the communication back from the other person.
That is going because people are individuals. We're
all humans. And so we're all so it's
gonna be people who are gonna difficulty from
the other side as well. It's not they're
all not just gonna open their arms,
but they're all going to have a sense
of you trying. Mhmm. Right. Yeah. And I
And that's
going to end up being positive. It may
(23:37):
not be to the level that you are
anticipating, expecting, hoping for,
but it it can still be effective
even if you don't get, you know, the
a giant hug, first of all. Hugs may
not be something that's in that color. It
may not be the way you expect it.
Because you may be the outer shell of
the coconut at that point. To your to
your point, Tom, whenever that's happened, it changes
(23:59):
the atmosphere
instantly.
Sure. It really does. In a positive way.
In a very everybody relaxes.
Right. It's like you're not living in your
own in your own bubble of fear or
your own bubble of uncertainty.
And neither
side has to worry about making a mistake.
And to and and to your point, you
used a very important word which is humility.
(24:20):
If you go into this with the knowledge
that there are these gonna be these differences,
and
and I'm going to take responsibility for how
I react with them,
that means you go in with a respect
for
however they're behaving.
If you go in and can't have can't
find that respect for however they're behaving,
(24:41):
that means that you're not dealing with your
fear. Right. Right.
But but if you go in knowing that
their behavior may be different from mine, and
I just need to understand that Mhmm. Then
then you're owning that responsibility.
And and and that just changes the complete
atmosphere. Like, I don't know how you do
it. Please help me understand what this means.
(25:03):
Mhmm. I'm not judging it.
I'm
I'm just asking. Mhmm. It the atmosphere completely
changes.
It's been my experience that that happens. Sure.
Sure. And then everything just relaxes.
Mhmm. And it it's also
so tell me if this is what I'm
what I'm hearing. Because what I'm getting out
of it is
if I travel into this other culture
(25:24):
and I take the time to understand some
things about them, I I can't absorb everything.
I didn't grow up in this culture, but
I can I can bring a certain
recognition
of it with me? I can fool them
into thinking I really care.
Yes. That's pretty much it. Isn't it? Just
just fake it till you make it. And
I can take them. Don't actually care at
(25:44):
all. No. No. No.
Just be exploitative. I'm an American. Just be
a jerk. I'll I'll use I'll use a
very important word in the US culture. It
gives you freedom.
There you
go. Yes. Let's put that on a flag
and win. The freedom to be a jerk.
Yeah. Do we really know what that means?
Alright. Yeah. I mean, you once you once
you know and you and you make your
(26:04):
choice based on real knowledge Yeah. You know
Hey. You're free to do whatever you want,
but you are free. But you know what
the consequences are gonna be. Better believe it.
Dean, I I I think it's a fair
assumption to believe that, you know, wherever you're
going, you're obviously doing your research beforehand and
(26:26):
you're being, you know, humble and Are you
talking about Dean specifically now? Specifically. Okay. Being
humble and honest when, you know, may not
know something and you're open to learning and
all that. Have you been in situations where
those around you maybe have not been doing
that as much and you've sort of had
you've tried to kinda facilitate that situation. Oh,
yeah. Of course. That's exactly what
what
(26:46):
what is the the more common situation
that I'm often going into places and dealing
with people
who don't make
it's not their job to make sense out
of culture. That's my job. Mhmm. Yeah. Right.
Right? That's not most people's job. Right. Sure.
Most people's job is just to, I don't
know, work the counter or Do whatever they're
supposed to do that day. Factory. You know?
(27:06):
Right. Right. So they're just,
they're not working from this place of what
does this culturally mean? Right. Right.
They don't have to. It's and they shouldn't,
really.
But
so often,
one of the big complaints I get with
folks who are having cultural issues
in particular locations is, look, I've done my
(27:29):
homework, and these people aren't meeting me halfway.
You know? Why haven't they done their homework
too? Mhmm.
And my answer is
and, you know, why is life unfair?
Right. Yeah. I mean Yeah.
Yeah.
First of all, you're Wait. It's not going
like you planned? Right. There's a shock. As
you would. Yes. Your expectation that people are
(27:50):
going to be as
tuned into this issue as you are
is the mistake.
Most people are not, and most people don't
care to be.
And if you're certainly working somewhere,
that's your job is not to get them
to to
to be as
aware of this as you are. Your job
is to
get your job done. Mhmm. Yeah. Right. And
(28:13):
make sure that that that at the end
of a day, there's a profit, you know,
in in the afternoon. In the long run.
Yeah. Which means it doesn't really matter whether
they ever get it or not. Right. It
means you have to take responsibility
so that you can get what you need
to get in this situation.
Yes. And if that means
(28:33):
being more likable
or being less unlikable
or knowing how to negotiate better with them
because you understand their culture or how to
run the meeting better because they're gonna be
more comfortable,
then do it. Right. Right. Right. But that's
the reason to do it. Sure. You know,
I'll be honest on you. It's it I
I will also
(28:54):
I wanna relate to a couple of of,
incidences that that I experienced
in,
again, France. I'm picking up France today. But,
it is it it was we spent some
time there. And,
when we first arrived,
I,
a a friend of the person that I
(29:14):
was dealing with there came and picked us
up at the airport,
in in Paris and was driving us to
their home, which we were gonna be living
in. And,
so I'm doing this, and I'm weak in
French.
And so I wanted to
practice my French
on this ride back, and,
(29:34):
everyone else is pretty much just trying to
get over the chat Stay awake. Yeah. And
and so As soon as you get in
the back seat of a car after a
long transatlantic
trip.
Yep. And and but so I'm trying to
do this, and and the gentleman who picked
this up desperately wanted to practice his English.
Oh, that's sweet. Yeah. Yeah. And and I
and so I'm going along, and then finally
(29:55):
I thought, okay. I I you know, he's
coming out of his way to pick us
up. It's like, I I would really like
to try to converse in French, but it's
okay. Okay. Let's so we we did talk
spoke in English
and,
with that. Now so there was that where
I I felt like, oh, okay. I have
to I have to go in his way
because otherwise, it's I I I think it's
(30:17):
gonna be disrespectful. Also, it didn't force me
to speak French for a while, so maybe
there was a personal thing there. But, so
not long after that, it was thing there.
But,
so not long after that, we it was
a small town right outside of Paris, and
and there was a train station very close
that that went right into commuted right into
the center of Paris. So,
went down to buy tickets. Okay. Small town.
(30:39):
What can you anticipate? My total anticipation is
no one's speaking English. Everybody's speaking French, which
pretty much was true.
Get to the window
and start to talk to them, and the
young lady who's behind the window
wants to speak English. Sure. So okay.
Okay.
Does she wanna speak English to practice her
English, or does she wanna speak English not
(31:00):
to endure your massacre of the French? Yes.
A little of both. Yeah. Probably both. Yes.
Very, very likely with my French.
So it she's so here we go. So
I'm kind of thinking too. There's a selfish
part of this, of course. I'm thinking, good.
Because then I can make myself
known better because I have much larger vocabulary
(31:21):
in English than I do in French. So
I'm and I'm trying to sort out the
French train system.
And,
so here we go. Well, it turns out
we have the wrong tickets. At in the
long run, it turns out we have the
wrong tickets.
And so the next day,
I go back, and there she is.
And I started out by saying,
(31:43):
and she was like See you play. Yeah.
See you play.
And she was and she kind of smiled
and nodded and everything, and I explained the
ticket problem.
And as again, you know, god gosh knows
what I said, but,
she seemed to understand. The omelet will be
ready on Tuesday. Yes. Exactly.
(32:05):
If I was fortunate enough to get that
together. Yes.
And,
and by the way, the omelet was great.
Oh my god.
And and and so I, you know, and
I kept making my way through because it
it my brain said, look, she's going to
have more ability to give to figure out
what I really want and what I'm really
heading for in her language.
(32:25):
So I was hoping.
And, turned out, yes. That's exactly what happened.
But it was an interesting lesson
in kind of giving giving to that person
in in true. It just exactly what you're
talking about. I'm gonna give it up from
my end
to to to hopefully get what I want.
Oh, guess what? That didn't work.
(32:46):
Now let's go my direction.
Okay? Which was really kinda her direction because
she was the one whom that was her
native language. It was French. But but she
had wanted something for herself and and in
giving it to her. Now I could have
walked her through the window, had a totally
different person who had no English and didn't
care to. Well, you know, individual there are
individuals in every culture, so you never know
(33:06):
the person
who you the issues that that maybe maybe
maybe they grow up grew up as an
Anglo Anglophone even though they're French. Who knows?
Right. Right. Right.
But in general,
this plan that you have Yeah. And this
plan that everyone should have
should be based on some awareness of the
of the particular
(33:26):
orientation of the culture that you're in. Yes.
Right. Yes. Independent of the individual that you
wind up speaking. Right. Because you can always
adjust to the individual. And you're going to
have to. Right. That's the reality of it.
It's but that's no different than what you
do daily throughout your life. That's right. You're
just doing it in a culture you're very
comfortable with most of the time. So you
don't think about it. Right? It's not a
(33:46):
conscious thing. It's a subconscious. And what I
heard you saying over and over in that
story is you were trying to put yourself
in the other person's mind Yes. In their
in their shoes. Yes. Right? And I think
that's the key, is that is that empathy
aspect. And you may not be able to
do that
successfully as you might hope. Sure.
And I knew that. All the time in
life. Therefore, I knew how to say in
French, my French is very, very bad. Right.
Right. And I would start off with that
(34:06):
to go to your point, Dean, about the
about the the humility
and and, you know, letting and I've learned
to do that in several languages
on in travel because it is something and
not even in travel, in around the this
the United States too. Well, shorter travel. In
and around the United States when you run
into different people from different countries
(34:27):
here who are maybe not even from different
countries, but from con peep from people who
speak primarily
Spanish in their home or whatever it happens
to be. Whatever their first language might be.
Yeah. And and and trying to speak a
little bit of their language of them. I'm
better at Spanish than I am at French.
But I know how to say my Spanish
(34:47):
is very, very bad. And because
I'm not fluent in any of those languages,
but I can get by better in Spanish
than I can in Spanish. I think there's
very little danger in being humble. Right. And
and, ultimately, it gives you a greater
far greater advantage. Yes. And I think too,
from your story and to what you were
saying, Dean, I think if you really are
very scared about being the ugly, filling your
(35:10):
your country of choice, American, or whatever it
might be, keep in mind that many people
will give you grace. Right? Yes. That if
you are, you know, trying to speak your
French and you might be butchering it, you
know, that they might speak with you in
English. Right? That may be because they wanna
practice your English, but they also might be
saying, okay. I realize that, you know, this
person could be able to communicate. It could
be much easier. And I can communicate in
English. So let's just And at the end
(35:30):
of the day That's okay. And at the
end of the day, if you're trying to
conduct a business transaction,
look. We're gonna be here till 4 o'clock
if we continue like this. Right. Or we
can just make this nice, quick, and easy.
Yeah. So let's just do it the easy
way. But don't if yeah. So don't be
afraid that, you know, the person is gonna
you know? I mean, this could happen, but
I think most people will, you know, give
you that grace to not say, oh, well,
(35:52):
this person's, you know, speaking horrible French. I'm
just going to ignore them after that. I'll
go I'll go even one better, and I
think it's been my experience that
that most people really enjoy explaining their culture
to you Mhmm. If they suddenly see somebody
in front of them who's interested. Mhmm. Yes.
You know? Yes. Yeah. And and then you'll
you'll just learn a whole lot. Look. I
(36:12):
mean, you have to take the situation by
situation. Right. Is the ticket booth clerk gonna
do this? No. Right. But Right. But maybe
somebody you meet, you know, on the street
at a cafe who you're having a nice
conversation with
would go that distance and explain things to
you. Mhmm. And it's been my experience that
more people will do that
than not. Yeah. Nice. Because they really want
to oh, here's somebody who's interested in my
(36:34):
culture.
I will I will tell them things. Nice.
Nice. Yes. Certainly. Certainly. Invite them in too.
And and I'm I am going to
wrap
this up Okay.
And, with and put a bow on it.
Okay. Oh.
Oh, I see. Word play. Word play. Word
play.
A b e a u. A a
(36:55):
That'd be interesting. It would.
I'm I'm doing it as our,
our gift to the listener. Wow. Look at
you. You're on fire. You bet, baby.
And in saying at this holiday season
that it is a,
that that really
what we've been talking about in this particular
podcast, I think,
(37:16):
is what we've been dealing with and hearing
from from Dean
over all these podcasts for the last several
years now. And, if you're joining if you're
new to us, either brand new or
or you've only been around for a few
episodes, I I encourage you to please go
back and and subscribe and and and be
part of what we're doing because we're we're
(37:36):
trying to help people more and more,
get to understand the world
that we're in and be able to work
and play in it at as high a
level as we possibly can. Mhmm. You agree?
Absolutely. Yeah. Right. I mean, we're at a
point, an inflection point, I think, in human
society Yep. Where we have no choice but
to do that in order to survive. Yes.
(37:57):
This is this is a vital survival
issue. Yes.
And to step on to that a little
farther, I think the the,
because of what we spoke about a little
while ago, the communication lines being open to
literally instantaneous around the world. Mhmm. You you
need to understand that when you are communicating
with other cultures. Yes. If it's a Zoom
(38:19):
call or it's a or it's just audio
or whatever it happens to be, or you're
you're or you're chatting on something where it's
written, there has to be an understanding. That
person is not necessarily,
probably not,
coming from the same
background
that you're coming from. Right. And and you've
gotta you've gotta be able to give and
take Stay aware. Be bold. Directions. Do your
(38:40):
homework as much as you can. Yes. And
then that ugliness
doesn't doesn't rear it That's not ugly. On
the head. No. Yeah. There's nothing ugly about
it. No. Right. Right. Right. It it
On a practical level, it's absolutely essential. Yeah.
Day to day for our own individual success.
Yes. And on a survival level of the
species Yeah. It's great. It varies more so
now than ever in the history of the
(39:01):
planet. Human relations. Yes. That's right.
And with that being said, I think we
understand that it is that important because
oops,
your culture show.
Smell
you.
(39:25):
Before you run off and disappear back into
your own cultures,
let me give you some information about something
we really want you to know, and that's
how to get hold of us.
Give us your questions, your comments, anything along
those lines by email.
It's oops
culture show atgmail.com.
And be sure to follow us on whatever
(39:47):
social media you use at oops culture show.
Thanks.
Boxing Day today. It's Boxing Day? I think
it is. My boxing gloves. Yeah. I don't
have any boxes with me. Because I wear
the boxing gloves to to built to to
wrap up the presents. Why why is it
called Boxing Day?
I don't know.
What I feel so much. I've had so
many different I don't think there's a definitive
version of No. There's no definitive and I've
(00:21):
asked my British friends, and I get all
different different answers as well. Yeah. But no
surprise there.
If you knew them the way I knew
them.
Your your particular friends or the Brits as
a whole? No. My particular friends. I see.
Okay. That's that's good. We just unalienated
an entire island. One one explanation is that
it had to do back in the Victorian
(00:41):
days. If you were of the of the
wealthy class, you would give boxes of gifts
the day after
Christmas
to these house servants. That is what I'm
reading here on on Britannica. Yeah. On second,
we have Britannica. But then I also heard
that it was the day that things got
boxed up
after the Christmas celebration day. Oh, okay. And
(01:01):
celebrations. Uh-huh.
So I'm not sure exactly, but but if
you get enough meanings for whatever the
even even if if they're not correct,
we call it Boxing Day. Well,
enjoy, I guess.
Is it is it a joyful thing? Then
there are those 5 people who simply wake
up that day and say, let's go out
(01:22):
and just have a boxing match. Yeah. Yes.
You should wear the boxing gloves coming from.
There you go. That's what I do. Good.
Every year on December 26th.
Excellent. Yes. It's a, but there's also other
celebrations going on around this time of the
year. It is a laboratory time of year.
It is holiday rich
time. Yes.
Mhmm. And longer and shorter ones that that
(01:43):
take over several days and or basically an
eve going into the actual holiday,
of various around various different reasons. Whatever they
whatever they are, whatever you're celebrating,
have a very healthy, happy, safe
holiday. Yes.
And And it's a it's a heavy travel
time, right, with all the celebrating going on.
(02:03):
Certainly. It can be. There is a lot
of travel. Of course, everybody is traveling. Not
everybody, but a lot of people take their
holidays at at this time. And holidays are
very culturally
related.
And right? Am I wrong with that? You're
giving me a look like I just fell
from Mars or something. Culturally related. Culturally related.
What does that mean? Is that like their
in laws?
Wow.
(02:24):
Wow. Holidays as in laws. Wow. It's
like it's like they're coming at me from
all sides. Yeah.
But we think we understand what you mean.
We think we we think we do, you
blithering idiot.
You mean to say that there is a
cultural piece to this. Well
(02:44):
Oh, is there? Well, why is this?
Oops.
Your culture show.
Well, I'm already ticked off at both of
you here. I'm sorry. So I'm sorry. No.
I apologize.
No. I you don't need to apologize. Oh,
okay. Then I take it back. Well, good.
(03:06):
Because it's not sincere. And we're listening
for family celebrating. We're listening now to Tom
Peterson,
my co host, and And Torin, our producer
I guess. Just go off on their own.
I'll be back in about 5 minutes. Okay.
Alright. You guys have a break. Dean Foster
who's supposed to know what the heck we're
talking about.
(03:29):
But we we've decided, no. Don't need him
anymore. Nope. Okay. We're fine.
No. No. We need him and watch him.
Of course, we need him. He's the lifeblood
of this entire podcast
for us. Buying this? I I No. Just
keep saying what you're saying. I think you
have raised an important issue, which we should
take a look at now. Oh, okay. Thank
you for for raising this. Yes. Certainly. People
are traveling. Certainly. They're crossing cultures. Yes. There
(03:51):
you go. And one of their their key
concerns, at least I've I've heard some from
some people. Yeah. And and and it's been
a concern that's been brought to me by
a lot of folks Okay.
Is they don't want to be perceived as
the,
in this case, for many of them, the
quote, unquote ugly American Yes. When they're abroad.
Uh-huh. Okay. Yeah. Because they're at least recognizing
(04:13):
that their behavior may be seen in ways
that is not,
appropriate in the place that they are going
to. Right. I I worry about that. Yeah.
And that it is so that it is
going to be negatively
impact those around them in whatever culture they've
gone into. Right. Right.
It's not not that it's just being kind
(04:34):
of casually observed, but that it's it's actually
something that is not going to be received
well at all. Well, it's due to a
level of ignorance you're bringing in your own
cultural mores and not wanting to And kind
of implying them upon Right. That culture. Right.
Exactly. Exactly. In in expectation that yours, it's
the it the idea being the American, the
the kind of
stereotypical thing would be the American going into,
(04:56):
let's say, France
and going in and and expecting everyone in
France to speak English. Sure. Or any or
any And if or any country. I'm just
using an example. And and and and, like
and then yelling
at a louder voice speaking slower and louder
in order to get them to understand, which,
of course, is nonsense.
Right. Right. That that would qualify very strongly
(05:19):
as an ugly American at that point, but
it's not just Americans who do this kind
of thing. Yeah. I think I think anybody
who goes to into a particular culture with
an ignorance of
of what that culture is all about
can be perceived as, quote, unquote, ugly. If
you if you travel somewhere and you don't
understand the culture and don't know what the
(05:40):
expectations are about behavior Mhmm. You will inevitably
break some of those taboos, and you'll be
perceived as, quote, unquote, ugly. I don't think
Americans have a lock on this at all.
Right. You know, I think Sure. I think
throughout history,
we've seen this issue of of
either
through some form of tourism
(06:02):
or historically, actually, some other reasons for cultures
to be
visited upon exploitation
Right. Mainly Right. War and and invasion. Mhmm.
The other side is always seen as ugly
because they don't understand the culture that they're
now interacting with. Right. And and in some
cases, don't care to understand. In many cases,
(06:24):
don't care to. Yeah. I think the fact
that there is a level of concern about
this where people go, I don't want I
don't wanna be perceived this way. What do
I do to not be perceived this way?
It's kind of an admission of awareness. It's
a positive. And I I can I can
see it as a positive thing? I think
if you go in not even knowing that
or not even caring Not caring. Yeah. Is
(06:45):
even an issue, that maybe my behavior won't
be received well. Not knowing is an initial
thing. I think that not caring to make
any adaptions
adaptations
so that you can
adjust to whatever the other culture is. Whatever
the reason for this story not to insult
people Right. Things like that. Respect. I I
think whatever the reason for this sensitivity, and
(07:05):
there is there is a good outcome to
this. Because by raising awareness Mhmm. Then we
can come up with a solution. Sure. Right?
Yep. And and the solution simply stated is
know before you go. Yes. And try to
know as much as you can about the
culture that you're going into so that there
will be you'll be aware of the fact
that there may be certain behaviors that for
(07:26):
you are fine
that may not be seen that way in
the place where you are.
But
but also and and and I and I
wanna make this point because it's a cultural
point.
Wait a minute. Hold on. Hold on. Ring
the bell. It's a cultural point. There we
go. Okay.
I think this expression culture bell. This is
(07:47):
an expression of I don't wanna be seen
as ugly. Therefore, what do I do?
And the fact that it's an expression that's
been
that it's been expressed by U. S. Americans
mainly
is an interesting cultural phenomenon. Okay. Yes. Okay.
Say more. Because
(08:08):
Americans
as a cultural phenomenon
want to be liked.
Now and this is not necessarily
the case in other cultures. Gotcha. Okay. We
have a high level of needing to be
liked. Okay. And and there's a cultural reason
for this. I'm not talking about the psychology.
I'm talking about the cultural sociology of this.
(08:29):
There
you know, one of one of the things
we talk about when we talk about
differences in cultures is that there's all cultures
are fruity in some way, but some are
coconuts and some are peaches. Mhmm. Mhmm. You
know, and
the
the American is the peach
where there is this
assumption that
even though we might be different, we're really
(08:51):
all the same. So we make it real
easy to build a relationship upfront when you
start with somebody. It's easy to bite into
the peach. No. I mean, sweet. Gotcha. And
and and and fuzzy and enticing.
Yeah. Right.
And only after you eat away at it
a little bit do you get to the
hard pit Yeah. Center. Yeah. And that's not
so easy to crack. You're really not getting
(09:12):
to the very depths Right. Of the culture.
A lot of cultures are just the opposite.
They're the coconuts. Right.
It's hard right up front until you get
till you plug away and put in the
time and make the effort, then you crack
the shell. And then once you're in there,
it's soft and warm and and delicious and
delicious. Right? Okay.
And and so if you're a peach,
(09:34):
what you want to do is give out
the impression
that you're a likable guy. You know,
and how do you and likability
is often premised on similarity
that
That we're really all the same
unless you dig deep enough, then
you're gonna discover my differences.
The coconut says, We're not all the same,
(09:56):
and here are my differences right up front.
And you're gonna have to prove yourself to
me before I'm gonna even give you any
of the sweet stuff that's on the inside.
This need for likability
can be connected to the historical and cultural
origins of the culture
in the US.
And and and I'm not,
disparaging this in any way. I think this
(10:18):
is can be very charming, and we can
use this cultural fact about us,
us meaning US Americans, to to endear ourselves
to others,
particularly when we understand where we're coming from,
when we when we look for likability,
and
and when we understand that we may be
in a culture where this isn't as important
(10:39):
to them.
Mhmm. It's important to you. Right. Right. To
me,
but not to them. Right. Yes.
And that's key. Right? I think that is
key. Having that curiosity to know what's going
on outside of yourself.
Outside of yourself. Right. So maybe it's there's
not such an innocent motive for it. But
at the end of the day, it's good
to know that US Americans feel this way
(11:00):
and want a level of of More and
more. They're tying we're tying into that feeling
that you're talking about, that likability.
I think, in in in the global,
aspect.
And I think that's something that isn't necessarily
that's been there.
And but also the the world is it's
a different place than it was almost x
number of years ago. Yes. So much more
(11:22):
interconnected.
Yes. And it's much easier to have contact
with other cultures
and other people Much easier. From without going
anywhere.
And and so you have that, and it's
also easier to travel
for the most part. Mhmm. Okay? It's it's
easier to travel around
so that you are now getting things where
(11:44):
your people are getting out there and seeing
more of it. I think I don't know
the numbers to this. We can probably find
them. But I would guess that the percentage
of people who travel outside of their their
of our our home in the United States,
the United States culture
outside of that, across the borders into other
countries,
is larger now than it's probably ever been.
(12:05):
Yeah. I I I think that's tourism is
the world's largest industry. I would imagine it
probably is. Yes. When you think of all
the ramifications of tourism. Right. All the aspects
of it. It. So and when you're and
it's interesting in the sense that because we
can communicate across oceans,
across continents
in in a in a in a in
a speed at the speed of light now,
(12:26):
and we can do that without leaving our
culture,
it becomes a little different aspect than maybe
the one of, okay, I've flown to China.
Therefore, it is as a as a citizen
of the United States from the from the
US culture, it is my responsibility
to understand the Chinese culture and maybe the
regional Chinese culture because it will be different.
(12:48):
It's a very large country in different areas
of the country. To understand that and try
to be sensitive to it and and treat
it with respect. That already is a remarkable,
advancement, I think. I think it is. Taking
that step. Yes. Right? Now the the For
whatever the reason. If it's for likability or
for whatever the reason. Right. Well, sure. And
I think
(13:08):
you make a very, very strong point, I
believe, in the idea of of of
we want to feel
good about ourselves. We want others, the people
there, to feel good about us.
And that is gonna be to likability. It's
going to be self esteem.
However,
we can bring some people in who know
more about that. But never regardless,
(13:29):
it's something that is very important to us,
I think, in the US quite often. Yeah.
I think it is. And it's translating that
way more now than I think it ever
has been. I I think there's there's also
a darker motive to this, and and that
motive is fear.
Mhmm. Yeah. Sure. Now the question becomes, what
are you afraid of? Mhmm. Mhmm. Alright. And
and in the in the past, before there
(13:50):
was, I think, this awareness of of the
issue,
which is now on the table, and we've
been talking about it,
in in the past, the fear was dealt
with by making
this uncomfortable
feeling
that I have
the fault of the other. Oh, yeah. Right.
So yeah. So if I can if I
I'm I'm now in a place that I
(14:12):
don't understand
Right. Which is making me uncomfortable Mhmm.
But it's not my fault.
I'm not gonna I'm not going to take
on the responsibility of of making it. So
I'm gonna do what I want. I displace
it on the people I am now in.
So that that's the old colonial
that results in the colonial Very much. Very
much. Very much. Systems. Right? Very much. And
(14:33):
it's often the result of encountering peoples
basically because of war and exploitation. Right. Right.
Right. And and justify trying to justify it,
all the horrible things that that means Yeah.
By saying, well, they're uncivilized.
They deserve it. We're bringing a higher level
of living to you. Exactly. Right. Right. Right.
It happens to be. Yes. I'm I'm righteous.
(14:54):
You're pagan. Whatever. Right. So
if you can displace your
fear
on them, you don't have to go any
further. And it and it and it justifies
get the efforts. It justifies your behavior. Absolutely.
Yeah. Yes. And then there's sort of the
opposing fear. Right.
And and I think the the real fear,
though, before it gets displaced
(15:14):
is the fear that you have about
being uncomfortable
with something and with people who are different.
Mhmm. And
if you own that fear and
and and then
unpack that Mhmm.
And try to understand what's making me uncomfortable.
What is it that I need to do?
(15:35):
What is it that I need to know?
What
is it that I need to do? What
is it that I need to know? Now
that's an inner journey that most people aren't
willing to take. Mhmm.
Because because it means,
at the end of the day, admitting that
I don't know
what I should know in order to be
in this place. Mhmm.
And that's taking responsibility for it. Right. Right?
(15:58):
And most people don't wanna do that. No.
They don't. I'd rather I'd rather shift it
off onto the other person. Even within cultures,
there's an aspect of that,
because of of the the differences within that.
So when you get into something where there's
a significant difference in cultures
You mean, like, within a particular country? Yeah.
Uh-huh. I think I I I think if
(16:18):
we really look at I mean, the United
States is a large country.
China is a very large country, Russia, so
on and so forth, Brazil.
These are very massive areas,
But you get down to Geographically large. Exactly.
Right. But you get down to even smaller
geographically smaller countries
where you would think there's not that many
differences. There's still differences there. Right. And so
(16:38):
but you so if those things are going
to impact you, at some point, they're going
and and it's much less likely that you're
going to recognize
what you're doing
to within that particular country,
or that particular region,
that you are creating a problem for yourself
quite often. I mean, if you're we're talking
(16:59):
we've talked business. We're talking
travel for holidays, travel for vacation.
But travel for business,
this it's vital. And if you're coming around
and if you're paying attention to this
podcast, there's a good chance you've come around
to more the way of thinking that you're
talking about. That you that you want to
be part of of that culture in the
(17:20):
sense you wanna recognize it, and you don't
wanna insult it. You want to be aware
of the differences
and so on. But and and I think
that actually happens. Are you aware that there's
differences between this portion of the country and
that portion of the country? Right. You're it's
really important talking about a very important issue,
Tom, which I think is, you know, gonna
come up time and time again no matter
how we look at these issues that we
(17:42):
explore in this podcast,
which is the differences in cultures within
the
boundaries of that geography. Yes. And and the
the phenomenon, really fascinating thing is that
every single culture
has these intracultural
differences. Sure.
Big ones. Geographically, it's easier to see in
(18:02):
a big, big geography. Sure. But even little
ones.
I mean, North
Northern Britain and Southern. I was about to
say we've got North Italy and South. North
Italy. Definitely. The North South divide is all
around the world. Everywhere. By the way, if
you if you don't know or you don't
remember, we've talked about it in a couple
of podcasts, so go back and listen to
those. And and in some countries, it's the
(18:22):
east and west divide, which is more Sure.
Or maybe all all 4. Or all 4.
Yes. Or 3. And then there's 2. And
then you dig deeper, and then there's everywhere,
there's an urban and rural difference. Right. Right.
And there are differences between
Everywhere. Generations
over 40 and under 30.
And, you know, the list goes you can
slice and dice any one culture
(18:43):
in lots of different ways. Don't need, and
I think this is a point I've heard
you make in the past, But this is
you don't need to be bound up
by concerns. And again, I think people listening
to a podcast like this would be more
apt to want to be able to understand
other cultures. Well, so I think this is
really important. That's that's the question I wanna
get to is whether you're traveling, you know,
(19:04):
from the south to north, north to south
of a country or traveling to a different
country, and you have that and I do
think many people have that what I would
what I think of is a very healthy
fear of, wanna make sure I'm traveling to
this place of being respectful,
and really being able to build connections with
others, which I might cut up completely if
I say something or do something that's gonna
(19:24):
be considered really gauche and unacceptable.
So that you mentioned in terms of tips,
Dean, know before you go. Right? So do
your research as much as you can. As
much as you can. But, obviously, there's elements
you're just even reading books or looking online,
you're just not gonna know about until you're
in in a certain place. Right? So to
that, like But pause to that for a
second. The good news in this is that
there's tons of information out there. There's a
(19:44):
lot out there. Right. Yep.
Yep. Yes. So for things that come up
in the moment,
what are your what are your thoughts? What
are your insights on, okay, I just learned
that this is something I should be respecting
or doing that I didn't realize before. How
to how to make that adjustment? Right? So
you can avoid being the ugly fill in
the count fill in the country of choice.
Yeah. I mean, deal with your discomfort Mhmm.
(20:06):
And and admit it.
First, you know, the way you deal with
the problem is admit it first. You gotta
admit, I got a problem. Mhmm. Then you
can take the 12 steps. Right.
But the first step is I got a
problem. Yeah. Yeah. And it's yours, and you
gotta own it. So
I mean, something as simple as just saying
to the person across the table who,
(20:26):
you know, that you're talking with,
Hey,
what just happened?
Help me unpack this because
and you can do this in a humble
way where you you are already
gathering forgiveness
by putting it right out there and saying,
you know, I'm not from your country,
(20:47):
so I really don't know very much. There's
nothing wrong with that. That's absolute truth, you
know? And
and and what the other person is saying
in their head when they hear you say
that, they're
saying, that's right because I don't know much
about your country either. Yeah. And now you're
building that connection. Right. Yep. Right. Yep. And
so just get that out there and say,
(21:08):
you know, what just happened? Because just explain
to me. I don't know how things work
here. Right. You know? And then explain your
what it is that's making you feel funny.
Did did that have a certain meaning that
I heard it this way, but how did
you hear it? You know? And that makes
a lot of sense because I think the
less communication is
(21:28):
happening, the more assumptions, presumptions,
everything. Absolutely. Right. Yes. So let's just be
open to say, I you know, I'm
not here. Please walk me. You know, I
wanna I wanna learn about the culture, and
that's gonna be, I think, probably, you know,
99 out of a 100 times taken with
gratitude. Yeah. I mean, did I just make
a mistake? I just said something and everybody's
laughing. Yeah. Yeah. And are they laughing at
(21:50):
me?
Did I just say something fun? You know,
like, what is it?
I that's happened to me. I mean, faux
pas are built around. Right. Which we've talked
about. Right? Right. Exactly. And everybody So, like,
your,
pena is is the story right now? In
Europe,
yes, I think it I think that's what
I called him.
And it turned out I called him Mr.
Penis in front of 500 people.
(22:12):
And I said, of course, I didn't know.
Right. Yep.
Right. But but you were very open about
it. And and not of and I think
to be. Yeah. And there's a very real
that because what we're talking you talked about
fear. The fear of making a mistake
can be as harmful to this Mhmm. As
the fear, or the the fear of not
letting on
(22:33):
or in feeling like you just have to
apply your knowledge in your way, and it's
up to them to figure it out. Right.
If you don't wanna feel that fear, the
the logical step is to to shut that
down and make it everybody else's way. Right.
Yeah. And it's and and it and the
thing is too, and I I don't think
I think this is correct,
(22:55):
but it's
you're not going to regardless of what country
you're in or what culture you're in, you
are not going to always find someone, although
I think you're much more likely to with
the lines of communication like we're talking about,
asking for assistance, asking for help, a certain
humility on your part about all of this
and keeping it open, you won't always get
(23:15):
the communication back from the other person.
That is going because people are individuals. We're
all humans. And so we're all so it's
gonna be people who are gonna difficulty from
the other side as well. It's not they're
all not just gonna open their arms,
but they're all going to have a sense
of you trying. Mhmm. Right. Yeah. And I
And that's
going to end up being positive. It may
(23:37):
not be to the level that you are
anticipating, expecting, hoping for,
but it it can still be effective
even if you don't get, you know, the
a giant hug, first of all. Hugs may
not be something that's in that color. It
may not be the way you expect it.
Because you may be the outer shell of
the coconut at that point. To your to
your point, Tom, whenever that's happened, it changes
(23:59):
the atmosphere
instantly.
Sure. It really does. In a positive way.
In a very everybody relaxes.
Right. It's like you're not living in your
own in your own bubble of fear or
your own bubble of uncertainty.
And neither
side has to worry about making a mistake.
And to and and to your point, you
used a very important word which is humility.
(24:20):
If you go into this with the knowledge
that there are these gonna be these differences,
and
and I'm going to take responsibility for how
I react with them,
that means you go in with a respect
for
however they're behaving.
If you go in and can't have can't
find that respect for however they're behaving,
(24:41):
that means that you're not dealing with your
fear. Right. Right.
But but if you go in knowing that
their behavior may be different from mine, and
I just need to understand that Mhmm. Then
then you're owning that responsibility.
And and and that just changes the complete
atmosphere. Like, I don't know how you do
it. Please help me understand what this means.
(25:03):
Mhmm. I'm not judging it.
I'm
I'm just asking. Mhmm. It the atmosphere completely
changes.
It's been my experience that that happens. Sure.
Sure. And then everything just relaxes.
Mhmm. And it it's also
so tell me if this is what I'm
what I'm hearing. Because what I'm getting out
of it is
if I travel into this other culture
(25:24):
and I take the time to understand some
things about them, I I can't absorb everything.
I didn't grow up in this culture, but
I can I can bring a certain
recognition
of it with me? I can fool them
into thinking I really care.
Yes. That's pretty much it. Isn't it? Just
just fake it till you make it. And
I can take them. Don't actually care at
(25:44):
all. No. No. No.
Just be exploitative. I'm an American. Just be
a jerk. I'll I'll use I'll use a
very important word in the US culture. It
gives you freedom.
There you
go. Yes. Let's put that on a flag
and win. The freedom to be a jerk.
Yeah. Do we really know what that means?
Alright. Yeah. I mean, you once you once
you know and you and you make your
(26:04):
choice based on real knowledge Yeah. You know
Hey. You're free to do whatever you want,
but you are free. But you know what
the consequences are gonna be. Better believe it.
Dean, I I I think it's a fair
assumption to believe that, you know, wherever you're
going, you're obviously doing your research beforehand and
(26:26):
you're being, you know, humble and Are you
talking about Dean specifically now? Specifically. Okay. Being
humble and honest when, you know, may not
know something and you're open to learning and
all that. Have you been in situations where
those around you maybe have not been doing
that as much and you've sort of had
you've tried to kinda facilitate that situation. Oh,
yeah. Of course. That's exactly what
what
(26:46):
what is the the more common situation
that I'm often going into places and dealing
with people
who don't make
it's not their job to make sense out
of culture. That's my job. Mhmm. Yeah. Right.
Right? That's not most people's job. Right. Sure.
Most people's job is just to, I don't
know, work the counter or Do whatever they're
supposed to do that day. Factory. You know?
(27:06):
Right. Right. So they're just,
they're not working from this place of what
does this culturally mean? Right. Right.
They don't have to. It's and they shouldn't,
really.
But
so often,
one of the big complaints I get with
folks who are having cultural issues
in particular locations is, look, I've done my
(27:29):
homework, and these people aren't meeting me halfway.
You know? Why haven't they done their homework
too? Mhmm.
And my answer is
and, you know, why is life unfair?
Right. Yeah. I mean Yeah.
Yeah.
First of all, you're Wait. It's not going
like you planned? Right. There's a shock. As
you would. Yes. Your expectation that people are
(27:50):
going to be as
tuned into this issue as you are
is the mistake.
Most people are not, and most people don't
care to be.
And if you're certainly working somewhere,
that's your job is not to get them
to to
to be as
aware of this as you are. Your job
is to
get your job done. Mhmm. Yeah. Right. And
(28:13):
make sure that that that at the end
of a day, there's a profit, you know,
in in the afternoon. In the long run.
Yeah. Which means it doesn't really matter whether
they ever get it or not. Right. It
means you have to take responsibility
so that you can get what you need
to get in this situation.
Yes. And if that means
(28:33):
being more likable
or being less unlikable
or knowing how to negotiate better with them
because you understand their culture or how to
run the meeting better because they're gonna be
more comfortable,
then do it. Right. Right. Right. But that's
the reason to do it. Sure. You know,
I'll be honest on you. It's it I
I will also
(28:54):
I wanna relate to a couple of of,
incidences that that I experienced
in,
again, France. I'm picking up France today. But,
it is it it was we spent some
time there. And,
when we first arrived,
I,
a a friend of the person that I
(29:14):
was dealing with there came and picked us
up at the airport,
in in Paris and was driving us to
their home, which we were gonna be living
in. And,
so I'm doing this, and I'm weak in
French.
And so I wanted to
practice my French
on this ride back, and,
(29:34):
everyone else is pretty much just trying to
get over the chat Stay awake. Yeah. And
and so As soon as you get in
the back seat of a car after a
long transatlantic
trip.
Yep. And and but so I'm trying to
do this, and and the gentleman who picked
this up desperately wanted to practice his English.
Oh, that's sweet. Yeah. Yeah. And and I
and so I'm going along, and then finally
(29:55):
I thought, okay. I I you know, he's
coming out of his way to pick us
up. It's like, I I would really like
to try to converse in French, but it's
okay. Okay. Let's so we we did talk
spoke in English
and,
with that. Now so there was that where
I I felt like, oh, okay. I have
to I have to go in his way
because otherwise, it's I I I think it's
(30:17):
gonna be disrespectful. Also, it didn't force me
to speak French for a while, so maybe
there was a personal thing there. But, so
not long after that, it was thing there.
But,
so not long after that, we it was
a small town right outside of Paris, and
and there was a train station very close
that that went right into commuted right into
the center of Paris. So,
went down to buy tickets. Okay. Small town.
(30:39):
What can you anticipate? My total anticipation is
no one's speaking English. Everybody's speaking French, which
pretty much was true.
Get to the window
and start to talk to them, and the
young lady who's behind the window
wants to speak English. Sure. So okay.
Okay.
Does she wanna speak English to practice her
English, or does she wanna speak English not
(31:00):
to endure your massacre of the French? Yes.
A little of both. Yeah. Probably both. Yes.
Very, very likely with my French.
So it she's so here we go. So
I'm kind of thinking too. There's a selfish
part of this, of course. I'm thinking, good.
Because then I can make myself
known better because I have much larger vocabulary
(31:21):
in English than I do in French. So
I'm and I'm trying to sort out the
French train system.
And,
so here we go. Well, it turns out
we have the wrong tickets. At in the
long run, it turns out we have the
wrong tickets.
And so the next day,
I go back, and there she is.
And I started out by saying,
(31:43):
and she was like See you play. Yeah.
See you play.
And she was and she kind of smiled
and nodded and everything, and I explained the
ticket problem.
And as again, you know, god gosh knows
what I said, but,
she seemed to understand. The omelet will be
ready on Tuesday. Yes. Exactly.
(32:05):
If I was fortunate enough to get that
together. Yes.
And,
and by the way, the omelet was great.
Oh my god.
And and and so I, you know, and
I kept making my way through because it
it my brain said, look, she's going to
have more ability to give to figure out
what I really want and what I'm really
heading for in her language.
(32:25):
So I was hoping.
And, turned out, yes. That's exactly what happened.
But it was an interesting lesson
in kind of giving giving to that person
in in true. It just exactly what you're
talking about. I'm gonna give it up from
my end
to to to hopefully get what I want.
Oh, guess what? That didn't work.
(32:46):
Now let's go my direction.
Okay? Which was really kinda her direction because
she was the one whom that was her
native language. It was French. But but she
had wanted something for herself and and in
giving it to her. Now I could have
walked her through the window, had a totally
different person who had no English and didn't
care to. Well, you know, individual there are
individuals in every culture, so you never know
(33:06):
the person
who you the issues that that maybe maybe
maybe they grow up grew up as an
Anglo Anglophone even though they're French. Who knows?
Right. Right. Right.
But in general,
this plan that you have Yeah. And this
plan that everyone should have
should be based on some awareness of the
of the particular
(33:26):
orientation of the culture that you're in. Yes.
Right. Yes. Independent of the individual that you
wind up speaking. Right. Because you can always
adjust to the individual. And you're going to
have to. Right. That's the reality of it.
It's but that's no different than what you
do daily throughout your life. That's right. You're
just doing it in a culture you're very
comfortable with most of the time. So you
don't think about it. Right? It's not a
(33:46):
conscious thing. It's a subconscious. And what I
heard you saying over and over in that
story is you were trying to put yourself
in the other person's mind Yes. In their
in their shoes. Yes. Right? And I think
that's the key, is that is that empathy
aspect. And you may not be able to
do that
successfully as you might hope. Sure.
And I knew that. All the time in
life. Therefore, I knew how to say in
French, my French is very, very bad. Right.
Right. And I would start off with that
(34:06):
to go to your point, Dean, about the
about the the humility
and and, you know, letting and I've learned
to do that in several languages
on in travel because it is something and
not even in travel, in around the this
the United States too. Well, shorter travel. In
and around the United States when you run
into different people from different countries
(34:27):
here who are maybe not even from different
countries, but from con peep from people who
speak primarily
Spanish in their home or whatever it happens
to be. Whatever their first language might be.
Yeah. And and and trying to speak a
little bit of their language of them. I'm
better at Spanish than I am at French.
But I know how to say my Spanish
(34:47):
is very, very bad. And because
I'm not fluent in any of those languages,
but I can get by better in Spanish
than I can in Spanish. I think there's
very little danger in being humble. Right. And
and, ultimately, it gives you a greater
far greater advantage. Yes. And I think too,
from your story and to what you were
saying, Dean, I think if you really are
very scared about being the ugly, filling your
(35:10):
your country of choice, American, or whatever it
might be, keep in mind that many people
will give you grace. Right? Yes. That if
you are, you know, trying to speak your
French and you might be butchering it, you
know, that they might speak with you in
English. Right? That may be because they wanna
practice your English, but they also might be
saying, okay. I realize that, you know, this
person could be able to communicate. It could
be much easier. And I can communicate in
English. So let's just And at the end
(35:30):
of the day That's okay. And at the
end of the day, if you're trying to
conduct a business transaction,
look. We're gonna be here till 4 o'clock
if we continue like this. Right. Or we
can just make this nice, quick, and easy.
Yeah. So let's just do it the easy
way. But don't if yeah. So don't be
afraid that, you know, the person is gonna
you know? I mean, this could happen, but
I think most people will, you know, give
you that grace to not say, oh, well,
(35:52):
this person's, you know, speaking horrible French. I'm
just going to ignore them after that. I'll
go I'll go even one better, and I
think it's been my experience that
that most people really enjoy explaining their culture
to you Mhmm. If they suddenly see somebody
in front of them who's interested. Mhmm. Yes.
You know? Yes. Yeah. And and then you'll
you'll just learn a whole lot. Look. I
(36:12):
mean, you have to take the situation by
situation. Right. Is the ticket booth clerk gonna
do this? No. Right. But Right. But maybe
somebody you meet, you know, on the street
at a cafe who you're having a nice
conversation with
would go that distance and explain things to
you. Mhmm. And it's been my experience that
more people will do that
than not. Yeah. Nice. Because they really want
to oh, here's somebody who's interested in my
(36:34):
culture.
I will I will tell them things. Nice.
Nice. Yes. Certainly. Certainly. Invite them in too.
And and I'm I am going to
wrap
this up Okay.
And, with and put a bow on it.
Okay. Oh.
Oh, I see. Word play. Word play. Word
play.
A b e a u. A a
(36:55):
That'd be interesting. It would.
I'm I'm doing it as our,
our gift to the listener. Wow. Look at
you. You're on fire. You bet, baby.
And in saying at this holiday season
that it is a,
that that really
what we've been talking about in this particular
podcast, I think,
(37:16):
is what we've been dealing with and hearing
from from Dean
over all these podcasts for the last several
years now. And, if you're joining if you're
new to us, either brand new or
or you've only been around for a few
episodes, I I encourage you to please go
back and and subscribe and and and be
part of what we're doing because we're we're
(37:36):
trying to help people more and more,
get to understand the world
that we're in and be able to work
and play in it at as high a
level as we possibly can. Mhmm. You agree?
Absolutely. Yeah. Right. I mean, we're at a
point, an inflection point, I think, in human
society Yep. Where we have no choice but
to do that in order to survive. Yes.
(37:57):
This is this is a vital survival
issue. Yes.
And to step on to that a little
farther, I think the the,
because of what we spoke about a little
while ago, the communication lines being open to
literally instantaneous around the world. Mhmm. You you
need to understand that when you are communicating
with other cultures. Yes. If it's a Zoom
(38:19):
call or it's a or it's just audio
or whatever it happens to be, or you're
you're or you're chatting on something where it's
written, there has to be an understanding. That
person is not necessarily,
probably not,
coming from the same
background
that you're coming from. Right. And and you've
gotta you've gotta be able to give and
take Stay aware. Be bold. Directions. Do your
(38:40):
homework as much as you can. Yes. And
then that ugliness
doesn't doesn't rear it That's not ugly. On
the head. No. Yeah. There's nothing ugly about
it. No. Right. Right. Right. It it
On a practical level, it's absolutely essential. Yeah.
Day to day for our own individual success.
Yes. And on a survival level of the
species Yeah. It's great. It varies more so
now than ever in the history of the
(39:01):
planet. Human relations. Yes. That's right.
And with that being said, I think we
understand that it is that important because
oops,
your culture show.
Smell
you.
(39:25):
Before you run off and disappear back into
your own cultures,
let me give you some information about something
we really want you to know, and that's
how to get hold of us.
Give us your questions, your comments, anything along
those lines by email.
It's oops
culture show atgmail.com.
And be sure to follow us on whatever
(39:47):
social media you use at oops culture show.
Thanks.
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