June 26, 2025 • 41 mins
While we're sorry to possibly offend, we're not at all sorry about reissuing our apologies-across-cultures episode, "Sorry?", from June 2019. We hope that you enjoy it, and if you don't, what else can we say but...sorry?
We’re very (not) sorry to say that Dean and Tom are talking apologies across cultures, particularly in the U.K. and East Asia, in this episode. Also, Producer Torin brings in a recent New York Times article about apologetic tweets from British railway companies (sorry if you missed the article), while Dean and Tom chat about how the train system in New York doesn’t seem to want to apologize for anything. (Sorry, New York!)
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Have a cultural question or episode idea? Reach out on X/Twitter & Facebook (@OopsCultureShow) or by email at oopscultureshow@gmail.com.
Hosts: Dean Foster & Tom Peterson
Audio Production: Tom Peterson & Torin Peterson
Music: “Little Idea” – Bensound.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Okay. Well, we're rolling right now. I'm gonna
get that moment of silence here. So,
just sit. Don't make any noise. Okay?
Okay. That's plenty.
You can you can make noise. Is my
heart still alive there? No. I'm sorry. You've
(00:21):
passed away.
We got a good strong It looks like
an EKG. It does, doesn't it? Yeah. It
does. It really does. Or a seismograph.
Right. Well, it is a seismograph,
actually. If the if the wrong guys were
reading the wrong chart and they didn't know
it. Like, if your cardiologist
is reading the seismograph.
Yeah. Yeah.
It's
(00:42):
Wait a minute. You look
you look dead. It's actually In California, though,
you look quite healthy. Really? You you look
pretty good to me, but we just lost
California.
Yep. Oh, well,
okay. So we are going to discuss today
(01:04):
the,
apologies.
Are you apologizing to me for something? I
am. I'm not. Are you sorry about something?
Well, not right. No. I'm not right now.
No. But you were once sorry about something
and then I'm sorry. I'm doing this right
now. That's what I'm sorry for. I'm sorry.
I'm questioning it. Well, okay. But neither of
(01:25):
us are really sorry about any of that.
Not at all. No. It's like what does
that mean? Remember when we've mentioned in the,
in past
podcasts
where we Past podcast. Say that three times
fast. Past podcast.
Thank you.
(01:47):
I thought that was done quite well. Wasn't
it though? Yeah. Wasn't it surprising as well?
I think that was an e flat. Can
we do it in g? I thought it
was in l because it sure sounded like
L to me. Alright. There we go. Okay.
They
I don't have any idea what we were
talking about. Oh, apologies. Sorry about that. See?
(02:08):
But why did you apologize about the apology?
What we've talked about in past
podcasts
Yes. Has been when people will say, I'm
sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. Oh, and
exactly what they mean. If somebody says, I
didn't mean to interrupt, that's exactly what they
mean. Of course it is. But they're saying
they're sorry. So can we
justify that? So the articulation
(02:30):
of the process of deception
makes it okay?
I have no idea what you just said.
He did hide, but it fell great. It
really did sound like it too. Almost like
you knew what you were talking about. No.
No. I I'm sorry if you didn't get
it. It wasn't. Well, obviously, I didn't I
enjoyed it, though. Obviously, I didn't articulate it
as well as I should have. Okay. So
(02:51):
I'm gonna be self deprecation with self deprecating
with my articulation.
Again, now that I believe is is outlawed
in in most of the the the the
articulation.
I think I've lost you completely now. I
was trying to turn it into a Cole
(03:11):
Porter song. Well It didn't happen.
Will, I'm sorry. It's didn't sound like a
Cole Porter song.
Well
okay. But so so of all, I guess
we should just mention that, you're Dean Foster.
Yep. And I'm Tom Peterson.
And we also have Torin with us today.
(03:32):
Hello, Torin. Hello. Talking apologies. And I'm not
sorry about that. Oh, guess what?
Oops. Your culture
show.
Apologies.
And
people who apologize when they don't mean it,
(03:53):
people who apologize
too much
or not enough,
and can that be attributed
to cultures around the world? It is a
very uncomfortable topic.
Why? Because I don't think people are comfortable
with the whole idea of apologizing.
Or maybe they're quite comfortable with it. Or
when that may be a cultural thing. Maybe
(04:14):
in some cultures,
we that's where we default. That's where we
go all the time Mhmm. And it's very
comfortable.
Maybe I'm talking about certain cultures where they
feel very uncomfortable about talking. I'm see, I'm
not comfortable about talking about apologies. I will.
I will. But I'm sorry if I if
I if that's the truth. That's the truth.
(04:35):
Well, that's all we have for today.
So
well,
it's I think you can use an apology
for lots of different reasons. You can evade.
You can
deflect.
You you can say I'm sorry to try
to increase the perception of how humble a
(04:56):
person you are. Okay. There's lots of reasons
why you can say I'm sorry. And I
think people can be very deceptive about it.
Isn't it isn't it often used in a
passive aggressive way? I think that's the point.
You just nailed it. Right. I think there
is a cultural piece to this. Oh, okay.
Okay? Depending on Have we come up with
anything yet that that didn't have a cultural
(05:17):
piece to it? No. There's nothing that doesn't
have a cultural piece to it. I'm saying
that definitively. And if somebody disagrees with me,
I'm sorry.
I think you just defined it right there.
That's an I'm sorry,
parentheses,
you're wrong, close parentheses.
Absolutely.
Yes. See, so there are lots of reasons,
(05:37):
lots of different ways you can apologize and
say I'm sorry, and it depends on what
your intent really is. Sure. Like, on an
individual psychological
level, I mean, I've heard people say
I'm sorry or apologize
about things where it could have meant anything.
You know, it could have meant so many
different things. It may have been sincere. It
(05:59):
may not have been sincere. How many of
us have had or even said,
I'm sorry and didn't really mean it or
have somebody say that to them and you
know they don't mean
it. I've
never done that. Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, well,
I'm sorry too, but I think I've never
done it. I'm
sorry.
(06:20):
Who's
so sorry?
And then there's
who's
sorry
now.
Right. Right. Wait. Hold on. For a minute.
For a minute. If we a couple more
measures and we and we have to pay.
Yeah. Licensing. Licensing is back again. I I
will say this. The licensing guy
is is on duty, like, twenty four hours
(06:40):
a day, seven days a week,
all year long.
It's He's gonna jump on it. He or
she is gonna jump on it. They. Let's
use the pronoun they for that. Okay. I
think it's appropriate. They'll jump on it like
like that. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, let me ask you a question.
Can you and I this is the this
is the softball. This is the easy one.
Okay. We'll start with that. I'm already nervous.
(07:03):
No. No. This is the easy one. Can
you name a country
that would be prone
to
saying I'm sorry or a version of that,
quite often?
There are lots. And and again I didn't
ask for lots.
I asked for one.
(07:25):
What? What is that? But hang on. I
think you should say you're sorry for that.
I'm really sorry.
I have to provide the context for my
answer.
Alright. Two come to mind. Oh, jeez. See?
Alright. The UK
Mhmm. And Japan. But it depends and I'm
using these two. Okay. Such similar cultures. Very
(07:47):
dissimilar.
Right? Yeah. And so depending on who is
receiving
communication from either Britain or Tokyo, let's say
Yeah.
You might not hear it as
an apology as we would term an apology.
Okay.
But that's because both of those cultures
(08:09):
are sounding
apologetic to, let's say, my ear or your
ear as a US American. Yes.
But they're using the apology
for different reasons in different ways.
Okay.
Yeah. Wow. Did you do that all on
one breath?
Standing on one leg. Oh, my goodness. Well
(08:30):
Chewing gum
and rubbing my belly and all at the
same time. Tapping patting the top of your
head too, which was pretty impressive. I don't
know. You didn't do that? No. Okay. Wait.
Let me try to say all of that
again and pat the whole leg. Let's not
do that. No. I'm be doing that immediately.
Sorry. But that's out. Alright. So here's the
thing. Like This is the thing right here.
(08:51):
Okay. Good. We're getting to the thing early
today. Okay.
Go go. No. I'm sorry. I didn't mean
to interrupt. In in Japan,
such a group oriented culture, very powerfully group
oriented. Yes. So
what you do is,
you know, this idea of humility
and humbleness
is is a very highly regarded value. Mhmm.
(09:13):
And one of the much of Asia. Throughout
much of Asia, but I'm using Japan here
as a particular
extreme example. Right. I just thought I'd throw
something in so people would know it. Yes.
Yeah. Yeah. That's all. And and the source
of this is there are many sources for
this. It has to do with Confucianism and
Buddhism and Shintoism
and and and beyond just those religious influences
(09:34):
or philosophies
philosophies of life,
you also have
historical precedents that that
significant group orientation.
There's a lot of reasons for it, but
the result is
that if I'm doing
anything or if I even need to say
something
(09:54):
that in any way I might think
would make you feel uncomfortable
or disappointed
or,
or challenged
in some way, then I can't say it
directly.
And using an apology
upfront
is a great device
for then saying what you need to say.
(10:18):
So
it's a
way of saying, Here's kind of how I
feel, but I'm really, really sorry
if this hurts you or harms you or
makes you uncomfortable in any way.
So the use of an apology is is
is a terrific technique in Japan.
When you say something that advances, let's say,
(10:39):
your agenda in a business meeting or or
even just a casual
meeting on the street,
if you're trying to get something done
and you're not sure how it's gonna be
received by the other person, apologizing
right up front
is a good way to start.
Right? Well, it's not that dissimilar. Right? If
(10:59):
we pass somebody on the street in New
York, I might say, excuse me, or if
I need some help for something, you know,
excuse me, but excuse me, but how do
I get from here to there or would
you know, whatever it is.
But in Japan, you
really want to elaborate on that
and and I'm so so you would rather
(11:20):
say,
I'm so very sorry to bother you, and
I hope this is not an inconvenience.
Almost I'm hearing that almost like someone who
in a in a business situation or in
an office
maybe goes up to a door, taps on
it, and then opens it up, and there's
people in there who are in a meeting,
and says, I'm sorry to bother you, but
(11:42):
and then goes on from there. But you're
saying it's a much more widespread
impact in Japan. Yes. It it it's it's
positively
valued. Mhmm. Okay. Strongly valued.
And and if you don't do it,
you know, you're kind of looked on as
barbaric.
Okay. You're not it's you're not being sensitive
to
how others might feel by your comments. Okay.
(12:06):
Mhmm. Yeah. Now in Britain, you have this
interesting thing where,
coming out of a much more European tradition,
we're not coming out of a Confucian or
a Buddhist
influenced tradition.
It's kind of odd, actually, that you have
this
strong emphasis in Britain on,
(12:26):
oh, I'm sorry.
Mhmm. Excuse me. Mhmm. Pardon.
Right? Mhmm. All of those things. Just sorry.
Sorry. Yeah. Is very common word there. All
the time. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. And
what's the difference between those three things? Sorry,
excuse me,
and pardon.
(12:47):
Mhmm.
There there are very subtle differences. I would
love to hear some from some of our
listeners who might be British who could articulate
that Sure. For us because Sure. You know,
I I think I have an idea, but
I'm not British myself. Right. So I wouldn't
necessarily use these. Yeah. Because we're gonna filter
it as you often say. We're gonna filter
(13:08):
it through our culture to make decisions on
what they mean,
as opposed to the person who's actually been
raised in the culture
defining it. Yeah. I think sorry is sorry,
and then the unsaid part is the parenthesis,
and and it's sorry to bother you Mhmm.
But Mhmm. Close parenthesis. Okay. Right?
(13:29):
Pardon, I think, is the British way of
saying,
say that again?
Yes. Yes.
Which can be used here, but we don't
use it a lot like that. I think
there was a time when it was used
more here like that than it is now.
Here being The US. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And
Yes. Right. And then and then there's excuse
(13:50):
me Mhmm.
Which is,
again, in Britain, my take on that is,
yes, it could be, I'm sorry I said
what I said. But it more likely,
it's a way of asking
for some sort of accommodation.
Mhmm. Like getting past someone
or accidentally bumping into them or something like
(14:12):
that. Yeah. I think that's a that's a
subtle variation
of sorry. Yeah. Yeah. But it says the
use of sorry in a very specific circumstance.
Okay. Right? Mhmm. But both of those are
very different from pardon. Mhmm.
Pardon is say it again. Mhmm. Please. Okay.
In in in your interpretation of the British
(14:34):
use of it. Right? I'm I'm seeing it
that way. Yeah. Well, we should please help
us out a little bit. If you are
British,
let us know what you think about that
because that would be a huge help.
And if you and and if you if
you disagree,
don't start with an apology. Right.
(14:54):
Don't be sorry for disagreeing.
Yeah.
Or or go ahead and be sorry for
disagreeing if if you can't help yourself. Yeah,
of course. Because we don't want you to
fall to our culture anyway. Right. We don't
want you to not contact us because you're
afraid you'll say the wrong thing. We'll give
you a blanket,
you can put in a blanket apology
for whatever you do, and we'll accept it.
(15:17):
Now, unless you don't like what we're doing,
in which case, no. Don't. No. We're not
sorry about it. We're we're not sorry at
all. No apologies.
Here's the thing. Interesting
Wait. I thought we already had the thing.
No. We've got lots of things. Oh. There's
multiple things. We got the all thing right
here. All things for all the people. All
the time. All the time. Considered.
Alright.
(15:37):
So do you remember what the thing is
again? Go ahead. Well,
I do. Oh, that's that's surprising right there.
In a previous episode, we talked about the
ice Icelandic all thing. Oh, yeah. And for
those listeners who don't know or don't remember
Or if you haven't listened to it, go
find the islands of Iceland and Malta
and and listen to that episode. That's right.
(15:59):
Because we talked about the all thing, which
is a unique Icelandic,
but I'm not gonna give it away anymore.
No. That's right. Go listen.
Go listen again. So what was the thing
I was talking about? I have no clue.
Okay. So here's the thing. Oh, here it
is. Okay. Alright. Thought I was gonna get
away, but
Alright. Yes. So
I'm walking down the street in Tokyo. Oh,
(16:20):
okay. No. Right now, you're not. You're no.
And you're in the studio. Setting a scenario.
Oh, and and now you're knocking over your
water glass. That's what that noise was in
the background.
And I'm waiting for I'm sorry. There you
go.
Now now go ahead. Let us see your
thing. Now here's an example of how we
(16:41):
have to be careful about not
overgeneralizing
cultures being similar just because they're near each
other. Right?
Let let me let me take my example
and move from
Tokyo to
Shanghai
or Beijing, China.
(17:01):
And I'm walking down the street and I
bump into somebody. It's crowded. Big cities. Right?
Okay.
Or actually,
somebody
walks down the street and bumps into me.
Okay. Yeah. Sure.
You know, an anonymous,
some a strange a Chinese person. Not that
they're strange.
Wow.
Okay. Now we're in trouble. It's
(17:23):
English
doesn't English is too complicated.
Or maybe I'm not that competent with it,
and I'm sorry. Oh, okay. Well, maybe It's
just my language, and it it I'm losing
it. Let's just assume that the person who
is walking down the street bumps into you.
They're not strange at all. They're
They're not strange
(17:44):
at all. Absolutely together.
They are. And they're in Shanghai,
however. I'm the stranger. I'm the stranger. You
are the in Shanghai, you are the stranger.
And I'm also strange. That's for sure.
I think if you put me up against
most anybody, Chinese or not, I'm gonna be
the strange one. Absolutely.
There's there's no argument happening here. And I'm
(18:06):
not even apologizing
for it. No. And you should apologize for
agreeing with me. Oh, I don't think so.
I'm just
verifying facts. That's all I'm doing. I'm really
sorry. That's not common these days, but I'm
verifying facts. Alright. So here's what happened. Oh,
please. Go ahead. Down the street. In Shanghai.
A
stranger.
Yes. A native A native
(18:29):
of China and Shanghai. Fine.
He's walking to me, bumps right into me.
Yes. Right? And doesn't say anything.
In fact, this happened to a colleague of
mine
in a swimming pool in Beijing. They were
swimming
and a Chinese guy is swimming in the
opposite direction and swims right into him. Okay.
(18:51):
That's under the water. Right? Okay. So you
could say he didn't see him, but he
swam right into him, and
he
jumps up out of the water.
The guy is the swimmer Yeah. And looks
at him and starts laughing.
The the person who bumped into him The
Chinese guy who swam into him. Yes. He's
laughing. He's laughing. Okay.
(19:12):
And so my colleague is like, wait a
minute. That's a fake You just Because your
colleague was from Europe, from The US. He's
an American. Okay. You just swam into me.
You just caused the accident. Yeah. And
I expect an apology. Okay. And instead of
getting an apology, I get you laughing in
my face
over this. Okay. Yeah. Yep. And I'm walking
(19:35):
down the street in Shanghai, and an old
Chinese lady comes
barreling by me. Uh-huh. And I'm obviously in
her way, and she sticks her elbow out
into
my side Uh-huh. And pushes me away. Right.
Right. And I'm going, wait a minute, lady.
Yeah. I'm from New York. I know about
crowds. Yeah. You don't have to stick your
(19:55):
elbow in to my side. No apologies are
happening. No apologies. Nothing. Well, that sounded intentional
right there. If I take the same scenarios,
kind of like that, and I'm on a
street in London,
if I bump into somebody- Oh my gosh.
They'd still be there. They'd still be saying
sorry. We're both standing there saying, I'm sorry.
No, I'm sorry. No, I'm sorry. No, I'm
sorry. Who's fault? Sorry. Who's fault? I'm sorry.
(20:16):
You feel that way.
So
what's going on here culturally?
Because it's Yeah. Yeah. There's something going on.
We have these
in London, if you've been been to a
stranger,
you apologize immediately Yeah. For offending them. Yeah.
And then in China,
(20:37):
why do I even have to apologize to
you if I bump into you? Uh-huh. Well,
you know what? Hang on to that thought
for a because
we've got a little bit of business to
do, and we're gonna take a break. So
I'm sorry to interrupt you,
but we're going to do that. And when
we come back from the break,
you're going to address that.
(20:58):
And,
Thornton's gonna add something
that seems
really hammers home this
this whole idea of the of the Brit,
apology. Well, hammer away.
Well,
alright then. I'm sorry.
(21:20):
While listening to this, you may think, hey.
You know, I wonder well, if you have
a question like that and wanna ask us,
there's a couple ways you can do it.
One would be through email, which is oopscultureshow@atgmail.com.
That's oopscultureshow@gmail.com.
And then there's also our handle on Twitter,
(21:40):
which is oops culture show.
That's
o o p s culture show.
I know. I know. It's not original, but
but it works. Okay?
All you're seeing is the back of that,
elderly Chinese woman moving away from you. Yeah.
Flailing that elbow out to clear her way
(22:01):
So what on other people. What's behind all
this? I don't know. That's why you're here.
Oh, no. I'm now this is called
I'm sorry, which is is kind of what
is that? That's in The US
that's being
I'm sorry because you're so pitiful,
which I believe.
(22:23):
In in China, Asia too, and and to
some degree, similarly in Tokyo. But let's use
the example there. Very group oriented cultures Yeah.
And very relationship based oriented cultures. So if
I have a relationship with you, and the
relationship could be
as simple as somebody, a party introduced me
to you. Right? Then I have an obligation
(22:44):
because I know you, because I've been introduced
to you, because you are somebody to me.
We have some connection.
Therefore, once that happens,
then I am very, very
concerned about your feelings
and apologies
are very, very much a part of how
(23:05):
we get things done. Okay. But until I
have that relationship, you are just an anonymous
number on the street. You mean
obligations to each other. See, in Chinese culture,
Chinese culture for five thousand years ran on
this idea of guanxi,
which is obligations
to take care of each other. So if
(23:27):
we have a business relationship,
then we are very careful with each other.
But until we have guanxi,
I don't know you, you don't know me.
And in some cases, we're fully capable of
actually harming each other until we have a
reason not to.
Now,
therefore,
if I'm walking down the street and you're
(23:47):
blocking my way,
right,
elbow you out of the way. I know
I'm not going to cause you, you know,
terrible harm. Right. And there's no apology necessary
because we don't have any obligation to each
other. Okay. I remember standing on a street
corner in in in Seoul, Korea. Mhmm. And
I step outside of the hotel
room to get a taxi.
(24:07):
And this taxi comes, and as soon as
the taxi pulls up to the curb, these
two other Korean guys
leave the hotel and jump in front of
me and jump into the taxi.
Now, not so dissimilar to the behavior of
a lot of people in a lot of
big cities. And I've seen that happen in
New York too. Right. Yeah. But
(24:29):
but these two guys did it with such
it's okay, you know. Like, I'm not trying
to Is it okay? I'm not
exactly. That's the difference. Yeah. You know, I'm
not trying to get away with something. I
it's not like I know I'm doing something
bad, but I'm gonna get away with it
anyway. Right.
No. This is the way the game is
played. I don't know you. You don't know
(24:50):
me. We don't owe each other anything.
Okay.
So Now, again, you're speaking about that a
little more broadly in the Asian context, or
are you speaking about that specifically about Korea?
South Korea? I I think we're talking about
you'll see evidence of this kind of behavior.
In one way or another? Yes. In places
(25:11):
where
relationships drive
behavior.
Okay. Not rules
and processes. Okay.
Yeah. Or have traditionally.
Now, by the way, most of these places
are intention over this. Yeah. Right? Because they
know that
the the rest of the world might not
subscribe to this way of doing things. Right.
(25:32):
And and so the idea of applying some
sort of
protocol
or etiquette or even
a moral reason
not to do that
is a real consideration to me. Uh-huh. Right.
So not everybody is going to behave this
way, but traditionally,
and in these cultures, these traditions go back
5,000. Right. So they have a lot of
(25:54):
weight. Yeah. Yeah. So so traditionally, though, this
was an acceptable behavior. Right. If I don't
know you,
hey, you know? Sure.
Now once we know each other, then we're
very, very careful about our human relationship. So
does it swing
when you say very, very,
meaning it swings Very much the other way.
Much to the other. And then you get
all these apologies all the time. Okay. But
(26:15):
until that happens Yeah. There's no reason to
apologize.
Yeah. Then you take the flip side, you
go to London,
and and as soon as you, you know,
bump into a stranger,
then you get you're setting off this whole
apology bomb that goes back and Sure. And
so what's that about? You know, why do
we apologize
to strangers?
Uh-huh. Right? And and and then when we
(26:37):
get to know each other,
once we get to know each other, then
we can act much more truthfully with each
other. Right. So the it's it's once the
relationship starts
in
London,
then we can be honest with each other.
Right. But
but until that time, we have to be
very respectful of intruding
(26:59):
on
or or causing any kind of discomfort
to the stranger.
I see what you're saying. Yeah. A Korean
friend of mine said, actually, once he says
it's very strange in the West,
you're you're very, very,
kind with strangers Yes. But not so kind
with the with the people
The closest to you. Yeah. And then in
(27:19):
Korea,
we're
extremely
kind with the people who mean the most
to us.
But why do we care about strangers we
don't know? Right. Right. So there's a logic
to both of these things. Right? Well, it
of some some work
of some kind.
Yeah. Sure. It's it's
(27:40):
that's really interesting. And then why did the
guy the Chinese guy in the pool in
Beijing
slam into the into the western swimmer, and
then come up and laugh at him. Right.
But but but what is exactly what was
the reason? Did did your friend ever find
out what the reason was behind the laughter?
(28:00):
Yeah. Sure. Well, the laughter, that's the cultural
piece. Well, it is. But I'm wondering is
that an embarrassment or Exactly. Okay. The guy
realized he caused an accident and that he
was at fault. Is that what's the reaction?
Alright. So anybody can do that. Right? But
it's about the reaction.
Yeah. Instead of getting an apology,
the more important issue in Chinese culture Mhmm.
(28:22):
Especially since you're a stranger. That's Mhmm. Like
the the
old lady with the with her elbows in
my ribs. Right.
The more important issue with the stranger is
to
make the situation
comfortable because clearly what you did
was you caused you caused the situation to
be uncomfortable.
Yep. You made a mistake. Yeah. So you
(28:44):
lost face.
Okay. And and you caused the the the
the bumpy
to also or the bumper, I don't know,
to also lose face. Maybe the water was
cold.
That may have created the the bumpiness. For
whatever reason. Oh, okay.
So the way to set everything right Uh-huh.
Is to laugh about it. Yeah. Sure. And
(29:04):
please join me in the laughter. No. Okay.
The response
from the western swimmer
should have been
to laugh with him. Right. Okay. No. That's
interesting. That's that's unlike road rage. Right? You're
Yeah. Now then so now let's We're on
the other end of this spectrum. Some of
these other cultures. Right. Let's look at The
(29:25):
US where all you gotta do is Well
get in your car and look at somebody,
and it's like I'm chest bumping you all
the time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now we're in
total confrontation.
Right? Until most of people until you get
out of the car, and then it becomes
a different approach. But if if,
okay. Let's but let's jump back to to
England now
(29:46):
for a because I mentioned
a little earlier that
Torin had this
article, I believe, Torin, that
right? That's right. Yet you
that he read in the New York Times
regarding
trains
and and and primarily England, I think, and
(30:07):
Right. The and apologizing. Oh, I believe I
saw that article. Did you? Because they weren't
running on time, and so Yeah. The Well
well, Tor, what what what fill us in.
Yeah. I was talking about this one railway
company in The UK in particular and how
there had been more schedule changes than usual,
more upgrades
going on than usual. So there were more
complaints coming in to this railway company.
(30:30):
So it sort of started there. The article
began there, but then it generalized a little
bit to talking about the different railway companies
in The UK and saying how,
typically, there's a lot of apologizing going on.
In fact, it was saying for this one
railway company, Great Western,
they will, on average, submit,
or I should say tweet,
(30:50):
so submit on Twitter over 100 apologies
per day.
And there was actually one other UK railway
company that,
tweets out more apologies per day. So this
was not uncommon.
And in fact, there's a website that you
can go to that collects UK Railway apologies
called sorryfortheinconvenience.c0.uk.
So you can go there and see those
(31:11):
apologies for yourself. But it was saying how
great Western has their own social media team.
I think there were six people on the
team where their full time job is to
wait for complaints to come in on Twitter
and to reply to them in real time
and apologize, and to make those apologies as
personal and as warm as possible.
And the article even actually sort of related
back to the last couple of episodes that
(31:32):
that we did because it was mentioning how
just to what, you know, Dean,
you were talking about, where there's a lot
of apologizing going on, generally speaking, in The
UK, and how the word pardon
comes up over 300 times across
all of Shakespeare's plays.
So it connects right back to,
Shakespeare that we were talking about the last
couple of episodes. And and again, this idea
(31:53):
of a lot of apologizing going on in
The UK. Right.
of all, that's an amazing number of of
apologies
in,
for the train people. I mean, I'm thinking
about in in especially in New York with
in in this whole Northeastern
United States region where the train system is
basically one gigantic
(32:15):
disaster
on a regular basis. And
they're talking about all sorts of work being
done, which is a good thing, but it
it's a mess.
And and I nobody's apologizing
for anything. Wait a minute. A public works
project
like
trains
transportation
(32:35):
based on the premise of
individuals giving up their
personal private right to get around in their
own personal private vehicle
isn't working
in The US? I don't know if we
wanna go that far. I think,
(32:55):
yeah. I think that idea is changing, by
the way. But Well, it is. It's gonna
be an evolutionary
process. Yes, I believe.
Unless there's a major thing that happens to
to move it along. We don't we don't
like to give up our own individual things
in The United States. No. That's it. It
it it's a very strongly individualistic
oriented culture. And Yep. Anything that challenges the
(33:17):
individual's right to do whatever they want
as at the expense of and to be
in competition
with the rights of other individuals
Mhmm. Is considered an okay thing Mhmm. Until
it reaches a point where it becomes so
obviously not
not doable.
Great. That's another podcast, and
(33:38):
which which we'll probably get to soon. But,
right now
so before we get away from the article,
the
the the idea
of the it's I almost
hear this as what you were talking about
before, but being used
a little differently. And when I say that,
I mean the
(33:59):
apology
ahead
of this situation.
So that
it it almost sounds like the the greater
use in this kind of in this area
with the trains
is being done because
it may be able to
soften the blow. Mhmm. And then protect those
who
(34:20):
are creating the problems or Yeah. And maybe
not I mean, they may be trying to
do good things, but there's going to be
difficulties, hardships.
It's going to maybe making something that is
used in The UK.
The train system is used extensively.
It's a small island, and getting people around.
I mean, that is where the Industrial Revolution
(34:41):
began historically.
They built the train. And what it is
is a vital,
thriving,
part of London life.
So all of that, along with the regular
train system,
which all of this apologizing
is coming from,
It sounds to me that Don't you think
or am I misreading this? Well,
(35:02):
I think you're right.
I think that,
I don't want to say that
I don't want to imply that there are
people in Britain who wouldn't think
that think cynically
around this and who wouldn't be surprised that,
they were having to make all these apologies
and that they were very disingenuous
with these apologies. Mhmm. I I'm sure there
(35:25):
are lots of folks who would feel that
way and I'm not gonna say that's wrong
because I'm not experiencing
the the fallout the way they would the
way they do.
But at the same time, I think there
is an element to this that is genuine.
Where there where it is coming from a
place
where from a cultural perspective,
(35:46):
we're having to admit that something is wrong.
So it's really there is an honesty to
it, you're thinking. Yeah. I think it's An
obligation
perhaps, A little bit obligatory. Right. And I
think that element
is missing
in the Northeastern trade system. Oh, absolutely.
Mhmm. Where where I, number one, because I
(36:08):
can say it because I am here and
I am experiencing it
can be very cynical about it. Mhmm. Oh,
yes. Because I don't believe
that there is any real sense of apology.
Right. Right. For what's going on or any
real caring
for the consequences of of what this does
(36:29):
to the individual.
Because we don't have that piece built into
our culture. No. In fact,
I'm gonna jump in and say,
again, because of coming from The US and
the Northeastern US,
that
the the idea would be
they're not going to start to apologize
until somebody comes after them
(36:50):
with a problem that they may have caused.
And even then, they'll probably try to get
to defend
it before they revert to,
apologizing. Yeah. Absolutely.
Because the the reasons why the system is
working the way it is
have greater validity
than the consequence
(37:11):
that it's causing a great deal of inconvenience
and suffering. Sure.
And so therefore, it is the way it
is. Yeah. You know? And I think that
missing element
of sincerely
believing that, gee, things are not right, and
we're gonna make it right. And until that
happens,
we're sorry about it. Right. That's just not
(37:33):
baked into The US DNA. Yeah. Yeah.
Well, we're done.
Actually, we we kind of are. But as
you know, it takes us a while to
finish these. There are a lot of other
cultures we need to talk about this whole
thing about apologizing for. Okay.
Not just Well, I'm guessing that we're going
(37:54):
to go and in fact, we we we
will hang on. I'm gonna put my mouth
back on. Hang on. I just fell on
the floor. Let me get it. I'm sorry.
I didn't I didn't okay. We will address
this We will. Numerous times in the future.
We will come back as we will be
doing with other subjects that we've already,
addressed,
(38:14):
that we will be doing in the future
as well. Let's talk about those cultures where
even the hint of an apology Here we
go. Is considered,
we're never gonna do that.
What?
Oh. No. We we you and I will
do that. Oh, I see. Okay. I was
really throwing a lot of quotation marks. I
think our train has left the station now.
(38:35):
That's
so, Torin. Hey. Torin, we wanna thank you
for bringing us the information
on,
on England. Sure. I'm sorry I didn't bring
it around. You don't have to apologize. Okay.
Okay. Okay. Well, by the way, I'm sorry
that we didn't do grammar time in this
episode because I know everyone loves grammar time.
Mhmm. Not grandma time, but grammar time. It's
(38:59):
Everybody feels close to grandma time. Do they?
Don't they? No.
You never met my grandma. Everybody. That's for
sure. Yeah. Okay. It's fine.
We could look into that. Elderly,
people and the relationship in their families throughout
cultures.
Nuclear
families and and and extended families. Are we
(39:19):
having some sort of radiation
going on? Or It's possible.
New
nuclear. You live to a certain age. You
might need some. Yeah.
I will say
thank you, Dean, for Thank you, Tom. For
your insights. Once again, it it's been it's
been stimulating.
(39:39):
Good. I'm I think I'm sorry for using
that word, but it's it's been stimulating. And
if I've
offended you or any of our listeners in
any way,
I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah.
You know what?
Oops.
Your culture's showing.
Sorry.
(40:07):
Smell you. Just wanna bother you one last
time to say we're a brand new podcast
here at Oops Your Culture Showing
and we could really use your help by
subscribing to the podcast.
And not to mention that if if you
hung around this long and and you liked
what you heard, well, this makes it just
easier for you to get the podcast. They'll
(40:28):
pop up for you whenever they're released. So
you can listen to them on your phone
or your computer or however you listen to
them. And it's easy to get too. Just
subscribe using iTunes or wherever you get your
podcast from.
It really isn't hard, and we could really
use your support.
So from all of us here at Oops
(40:49):
Your Culture Showing,
thanks.
Okay. Well, we're rolling right now. I'm gonna
get that moment of silence here. So,
just sit. Don't make any noise. Okay?
Okay. That's plenty.
You can you can make noise. Is my
heart still alive there? No. I'm sorry. You've
(00:21):
passed away.
We got a good strong It looks like
an EKG. It does, doesn't it? Yeah. It
does. It really does. Or a seismograph.
Right. Well, it is a seismograph,
actually. If the if the wrong guys were
reading the wrong chart and they didn't know
it. Like, if your cardiologist
is reading the seismograph.
Yeah. Yeah.
It's
(00:42):
Wait a minute. You look
you look dead. It's actually In California, though,
you look quite healthy. Really? You you look
pretty good to me, but we just lost
California.
Yep. Oh, well,
okay. So we are going to discuss today
(01:04):
the,
apologies.
Are you apologizing to me for something? I
am. I'm not. Are you sorry about something?
Well, not right. No. I'm not right now.
No. But you were once sorry about something
and then I'm sorry. I'm doing this right
now. That's what I'm sorry for. I'm sorry.
I'm questioning it. Well, okay. But neither of
(01:25):
us are really sorry about any of that.
Not at all. No. It's like what does
that mean? Remember when we've mentioned in the,
in past
podcasts
where we Past podcast. Say that three times
fast. Past podcast.
Thank you.
(01:47):
I thought that was done quite well. Wasn't
it though? Yeah. Wasn't it surprising as well?
I think that was an e flat. Can
we do it in g? I thought it
was in l because it sure sounded like
L to me. Alright. There we go. Okay.
They
I don't have any idea what we were
talking about. Oh, apologies. Sorry about that. See?
(02:08):
But why did you apologize about the apology?
What we've talked about in past
podcasts
Yes. Has been when people will say, I'm
sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. Oh, and
exactly what they mean. If somebody says, I
didn't mean to interrupt, that's exactly what they
mean. Of course it is. But they're saying
they're sorry. So can we
justify that? So the articulation
(02:30):
of the process of deception
makes it okay?
I have no idea what you just said.
He did hide, but it fell great. It
really did sound like it too. Almost like
you knew what you were talking about. No.
No. I I'm sorry if you didn't get
it. It wasn't. Well, obviously, I didn't I
enjoyed it, though. Obviously, I didn't articulate it
as well as I should have. Okay. So
(02:51):
I'm gonna be self deprecation with self deprecating
with my articulation.
Again, now that I believe is is outlawed
in in most of the the the the
articulation.
I think I've lost you completely now. I
was trying to turn it into a Cole
(03:11):
Porter song. Well It didn't happen.
Will, I'm sorry. It's didn't sound like a
Cole Porter song.
Well
okay. But so so of all, I guess
we should just mention that, you're Dean Foster.
Yep. And I'm Tom Peterson.
And we also have Torin with us today.
(03:32):
Hello, Torin. Hello. Talking apologies. And I'm not
sorry about that. Oh, guess what?
Oops. Your culture
show.
Apologies.
And
people who apologize when they don't mean it,
(03:53):
people who apologize
too much
or not enough,
and can that be attributed
to cultures around the world? It is a
very uncomfortable topic.
Why? Because I don't think people are comfortable
with the whole idea of apologizing.
Or maybe they're quite comfortable with it. Or
when that may be a cultural thing. Maybe
(04:14):
in some cultures,
we that's where we default. That's where we
go all the time Mhmm. And it's very
comfortable.
Maybe I'm talking about certain cultures where they
feel very uncomfortable about talking. I'm see, I'm
not comfortable about talking about apologies. I will.
I will. But I'm sorry if I if
I if that's the truth. That's the truth.
(04:35):
Well, that's all we have for today.
So
well,
it's I think you can use an apology
for lots of different reasons. You can evade.
You can
deflect.
You you can say I'm sorry to try
to increase the perception of how humble a
(04:56):
person you are. Okay. There's lots of reasons
why you can say I'm sorry. And I
think people can be very deceptive about it.
Isn't it isn't it often used in a
passive aggressive way? I think that's the point.
You just nailed it. Right. I think there
is a cultural piece to this. Oh, okay.
Okay? Depending on Have we come up with
anything yet that that didn't have a cultural
(05:17):
piece to it? No. There's nothing that doesn't
have a cultural piece to it. I'm saying
that definitively. And if somebody disagrees with me,
I'm sorry.
I think you just defined it right there.
That's an I'm sorry,
parentheses,
you're wrong, close parentheses.
Absolutely.
Yes. See, so there are lots of reasons,
(05:37):
lots of different ways you can apologize and
say I'm sorry, and it depends on what
your intent really is. Sure. Like, on an
individual psychological
level, I mean, I've heard people say
I'm sorry or apologize
about things where it could have meant anything.
You know, it could have meant so many
different things. It may have been sincere. It
(05:59):
may not have been sincere. How many of
us have had or even said,
I'm sorry and didn't really mean it or
have somebody say that to them and you
know they don't mean
it. I've
never done that. Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, well,
I'm sorry too, but I think I've never
done it. I'm
sorry.
(06:20):
Who's
so sorry?
And then there's
who's
sorry
now.
Right. Right. Wait. Hold on. For a minute.
For a minute. If we a couple more
measures and we and we have to pay.
Yeah. Licensing. Licensing is back again. I I
will say this. The licensing guy
is is on duty, like, twenty four hours
(06:40):
a day, seven days a week,
all year long.
It's He's gonna jump on it. He or
she is gonna jump on it. They. Let's
use the pronoun they for that. Okay. I
think it's appropriate. They'll jump on it like
like that. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, let me ask you a question.
Can you and I this is the this
is the softball. This is the easy one.
Okay. We'll start with that. I'm already nervous.
(07:03):
No. No. This is the easy one. Can
you name a country
that would be prone
to
saying I'm sorry or a version of that,
quite often?
There are lots. And and again I didn't
ask for lots.
I asked for one.
(07:25):
What? What is that? But hang on. I
think you should say you're sorry for that.
I'm really sorry.
I have to provide the context for my
answer.
Alright. Two come to mind. Oh, jeez. See?
Alright. The UK
Mhmm. And Japan. But it depends and I'm
using these two. Okay. Such similar cultures. Very
(07:47):
dissimilar.
Right? Yeah. And so depending on who is
receiving
communication from either Britain or Tokyo, let's say
Yeah.
You might not hear it as
an apology as we would term an apology.
Okay.
But that's because both of those cultures
(08:09):
are sounding
apologetic to, let's say, my ear or your
ear as a US American. Yes.
But they're using the apology
for different reasons in different ways.
Okay.
Yeah. Wow. Did you do that all on
one breath?
Standing on one leg. Oh, my goodness. Well
(08:30):
Chewing gum
and rubbing my belly and all at the
same time. Tapping patting the top of your
head too, which was pretty impressive. I don't
know. You didn't do that? No. Okay. Wait.
Let me try to say all of that
again and pat the whole leg. Let's not
do that. No. I'm be doing that immediately.
Sorry. But that's out. Alright. So here's the
thing. Like This is the thing right here.
(08:51):
Okay. Good. We're getting to the thing early
today. Okay.
Go go. No. I'm sorry. I didn't mean
to interrupt. In in Japan,
such a group oriented culture, very powerfully group
oriented. Yes. So
what you do is,
you know, this idea of humility
and humbleness
is is a very highly regarded value. Mhmm.
(09:13):
And one of the much of Asia. Throughout
much of Asia, but I'm using Japan here
as a particular
extreme example. Right. I just thought I'd throw
something in so people would know it. Yes.
Yeah. Yeah. That's all. And and the source
of this is there are many sources for
this. It has to do with Confucianism and
Buddhism and Shintoism
and and and beyond just those religious influences
(09:34):
or philosophies
philosophies of life,
you also have
historical precedents that that
significant group orientation.
There's a lot of reasons for it, but
the result is
that if I'm doing
anything or if I even need to say
something
(09:54):
that in any way I might think
would make you feel uncomfortable
or disappointed
or,
or challenged
in some way, then I can't say it
directly.
And using an apology
upfront
is a great device
for then saying what you need to say.
(10:18):
So
it's a
way of saying, Here's kind of how I
feel, but I'm really, really sorry
if this hurts you or harms you or
makes you uncomfortable in any way.
So the use of an apology is is
is a terrific technique in Japan.
When you say something that advances, let's say,
(10:39):
your agenda in a business meeting or or
even just a casual
meeting on the street,
if you're trying to get something done
and you're not sure how it's gonna be
received by the other person, apologizing
right up front
is a good way to start.
Right? Well, it's not that dissimilar. Right? If
(10:59):
we pass somebody on the street in New
York, I might say, excuse me, or if
I need some help for something, you know,
excuse me, but excuse me, but how do
I get from here to there or would
you know, whatever it is.
But in Japan, you
really want to elaborate on that
and and I'm so so you would rather
(11:20):
say,
I'm so very sorry to bother you, and
I hope this is not an inconvenience.
Almost I'm hearing that almost like someone who
in a in a business situation or in
an office
maybe goes up to a door, taps on
it, and then opens it up, and there's
people in there who are in a meeting,
and says, I'm sorry to bother you, but
(11:42):
and then goes on from there. But you're
saying it's a much more widespread
impact in Japan. Yes. It it it's it's
positively
valued. Mhmm. Okay. Strongly valued.
And and if you don't do it,
you know, you're kind of looked on as
barbaric.
Okay. You're not it's you're not being sensitive
to
how others might feel by your comments. Okay.
(12:06):
Mhmm. Yeah. Now in Britain, you have this
interesting thing where,
coming out of a much more European tradition,
we're not coming out of a Confucian or
a Buddhist
influenced tradition.
It's kind of odd, actually, that you have
this
strong emphasis in Britain on,
(12:26):
oh, I'm sorry.
Mhmm. Excuse me. Mhmm. Pardon.
Right? Mhmm. All of those things. Just sorry.
Sorry. Yeah. Is very common word there. All
the time. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. And
what's the difference between those three things? Sorry,
excuse me,
and pardon.
(12:47):
Mhmm.
There there are very subtle differences. I would
love to hear some from some of our
listeners who might be British who could articulate
that Sure. For us because Sure. You know,
I I think I have an idea, but
I'm not British myself. Right. So I wouldn't
necessarily use these. Yeah. Because we're gonna filter
it as you often say. We're gonna filter
(13:08):
it through our culture to make decisions on
what they mean,
as opposed to the person who's actually been
raised in the culture
defining it. Yeah. I think sorry is sorry,
and then the unsaid part is the parenthesis,
and and it's sorry to bother you Mhmm.
But Mhmm. Close parenthesis. Okay. Right?
(13:29):
Pardon, I think, is the British way of
saying,
say that again?
Yes. Yes.
Which can be used here, but we don't
use it a lot like that. I think
there was a time when it was used
more here like that than it is now.
Here being The US. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And
Yes. Right. And then and then there's excuse
(13:50):
me Mhmm.
Which is,
again, in Britain, my take on that is,
yes, it could be, I'm sorry I said
what I said. But it more likely,
it's a way of asking
for some sort of accommodation.
Mhmm. Like getting past someone
or accidentally bumping into them or something like
(14:12):
that. Yeah. I think that's a that's a
subtle variation
of sorry. Yeah. Yeah. But it says the
use of sorry in a very specific circumstance.
Okay. Right? Mhmm. But both of those are
very different from pardon. Mhmm.
Pardon is say it again. Mhmm. Please. Okay.
In in in your interpretation of the British
(14:34):
use of it. Right? I'm I'm seeing it
that way. Yeah. Well, we should please help
us out a little bit. If you are
British,
let us know what you think about that
because that would be a huge help.
And if you and and if you if
you disagree,
don't start with an apology. Right.
(14:54):
Don't be sorry for disagreeing.
Yeah.
Or or go ahead and be sorry for
disagreeing if if you can't help yourself. Yeah,
of course. Because we don't want you to
fall to our culture anyway. Right. We don't
want you to not contact us because you're
afraid you'll say the wrong thing. We'll give
you a blanket,
you can put in a blanket apology
for whatever you do, and we'll accept it.
(15:17):
Now, unless you don't like what we're doing,
in which case, no. Don't. No. We're not
sorry about it. We're we're not sorry at
all. No apologies.
Here's the thing. Interesting
Wait. I thought we already had the thing.
No. We've got lots of things. Oh. There's
multiple things. We got the all thing right
here. All things for all the people. All
the time. All the time. Considered.
Alright.
(15:37):
So do you remember what the thing is
again? Go ahead. Well,
I do. Oh, that's that's surprising right there.
In a previous episode, we talked about the
ice Icelandic all thing. Oh, yeah. And for
those listeners who don't know or don't remember
Or if you haven't listened to it, go
find the islands of Iceland and Malta
and and listen to that episode. That's right.
(15:59):
Because we talked about the all thing, which
is a unique Icelandic,
but I'm not gonna give it away anymore.
No. That's right. Go listen.
Go listen again. So what was the thing
I was talking about? I have no clue.
Okay. So here's the thing. Oh, here it
is. Okay. Alright. Thought I was gonna get
away, but
Alright. Yes. So
I'm walking down the street in Tokyo. Oh,
(16:20):
okay. No. Right now, you're not. You're no.
And you're in the studio. Setting a scenario.
Oh, and and now you're knocking over your
water glass. That's what that noise was in
the background.
And I'm waiting for I'm sorry. There you
go.
Now now go ahead. Let us see your
thing. Now here's an example of how we
(16:41):
have to be careful about not
overgeneralizing
cultures being similar just because they're near each
other. Right?
Let let me let me take my example
and move from
Tokyo to
Shanghai
or Beijing, China.
(17:01):
And I'm walking down the street and I
bump into somebody. It's crowded. Big cities. Right?
Okay.
Or actually,
somebody
walks down the street and bumps into me.
Okay. Yeah. Sure.
You know, an anonymous,
some a strange a Chinese person. Not that
they're strange.
Wow.
Okay. Now we're in trouble. It's
(17:23):
English
doesn't English is too complicated.
Or maybe I'm not that competent with it,
and I'm sorry. Oh, okay. Well, maybe It's
just my language, and it it I'm losing
it. Let's just assume that the person who
is walking down the street bumps into you.
They're not strange at all. They're
They're not strange
(17:44):
at all. Absolutely together.
They are. And they're in Shanghai,
however. I'm the stranger. I'm the stranger. You
are the in Shanghai, you are the stranger.
And I'm also strange. That's for sure.
I think if you put me up against
most anybody, Chinese or not, I'm gonna be
the strange one. Absolutely.
There's there's no argument happening here. And I'm
(18:06):
not even apologizing
for it. No. And you should apologize for
agreeing with me. Oh, I don't think so.
I'm just
verifying facts. That's all I'm doing. I'm really
sorry. That's not common these days, but I'm
verifying facts. Alright. So here's what happened. Oh,
please. Go ahead. Down the street. In Shanghai.
A
stranger.
Yes. A native A native
(18:29):
of China and Shanghai. Fine.
He's walking to me, bumps right into me.
Yes. Right? And doesn't say anything.
In fact, this happened to a colleague of
mine
in a swimming pool in Beijing. They were
swimming
and a Chinese guy is swimming in the
opposite direction and swims right into him. Okay.
(18:51):
That's under the water. Right? Okay. So you
could say he didn't see him, but he
swam right into him, and
he
jumps up out of the water.
The guy is the swimmer Yeah. And looks
at him and starts laughing.
The the person who bumped into him The
Chinese guy who swam into him. Yes. He's
laughing. He's laughing. Okay.
(19:12):
And so my colleague is like, wait a
minute. That's a fake You just Because your
colleague was from Europe, from The US. He's
an American. Okay. You just swam into me.
You just caused the accident. Yeah. And
I expect an apology. Okay. And instead of
getting an apology, I get you laughing in
my face
over this. Okay. Yeah. Yep. And I'm walking
(19:35):
down the street in Shanghai, and an old
Chinese lady comes
barreling by me. Uh-huh. And I'm obviously in
her way, and she sticks her elbow out
into
my side Uh-huh. And pushes me away. Right.
Right. And I'm going, wait a minute, lady.
Yeah. I'm from New York. I know about
crowds. Yeah. You don't have to stick your
(19:55):
elbow in to my side. No apologies are
happening. No apologies. Nothing. Well, that sounded intentional
right there. If I take the same scenarios,
kind of like that, and I'm on a
street in London,
if I bump into somebody- Oh my gosh.
They'd still be there. They'd still be saying
sorry. We're both standing there saying, I'm sorry.
No, I'm sorry. No, I'm sorry. No, I'm
sorry. Who's fault? Sorry. Who's fault? I'm sorry.
(20:16):
You feel that way.
So
what's going on here culturally?
Because it's Yeah. Yeah. There's something going on.
We have these
in London, if you've been been to a
stranger,
you apologize immediately Yeah. For offending them. Yeah.
And then in China,
(20:37):
why do I even have to apologize to
you if I bump into you? Uh-huh. Well,
you know what? Hang on to that thought
for a because
we've got a little bit of business to
do, and we're gonna take a break. So
I'm sorry to interrupt you,
but we're going to do that. And when
we come back from the break,
you're going to address that.
(20:58):
And,
Thornton's gonna add something
that seems
really hammers home this
this whole idea of the of the Brit,
apology. Well, hammer away.
Well,
alright then. I'm sorry.
(21:20):
While listening to this, you may think, hey.
You know, I wonder well, if you have
a question like that and wanna ask us,
there's a couple ways you can do it.
One would be through email, which is oopscultureshow@atgmail.com.
That's oopscultureshow@gmail.com.
And then there's also our handle on Twitter,
(21:40):
which is oops culture show.
That's
o o p s culture show.
I know. I know. It's not original, but
but it works. Okay?
All you're seeing is the back of that,
elderly Chinese woman moving away from you. Yeah.
Flailing that elbow out to clear her way
(22:01):
So what on other people. What's behind all
this? I don't know. That's why you're here.
Oh, no. I'm now this is called
I'm sorry, which is is kind of what
is that? That's in The US
that's being
I'm sorry because you're so pitiful,
which I believe.
(22:23):
In in China, Asia too, and and to
some degree, similarly in Tokyo. But let's use
the example there. Very group oriented cultures Yeah.
And very relationship based oriented cultures. So if
I have a relationship with you, and the
relationship could be
as simple as somebody, a party introduced me
to you. Right? Then I have an obligation
(22:44):
because I know you, because I've been introduced
to you, because you are somebody to me.
We have some connection.
Therefore, once that happens,
then I am very, very
concerned about your feelings
and apologies
are very, very much a part of how
(23:05):
we get things done. Okay. But until I
have that relationship, you are just an anonymous
number on the street. You mean
obligations to each other. See, in Chinese culture,
Chinese culture for five thousand years ran on
this idea of guanxi,
which is obligations
to take care of each other. So if
(23:27):
we have a business relationship,
then we are very careful with each other.
But until we have guanxi,
I don't know you, you don't know me.
And in some cases, we're fully capable of
actually harming each other until we have a
reason not to.
Now,
therefore,
if I'm walking down the street and you're
(23:47):
blocking my way,
right,
elbow you out of the way. I know
I'm not going to cause you, you know,
terrible harm. Right. And there's no apology necessary
because we don't have any obligation to each
other. Okay. I remember standing on a street
corner in in in Seoul, Korea. Mhmm. And
I step outside of the hotel
room to get a taxi.
(24:07):
And this taxi comes, and as soon as
the taxi pulls up to the curb, these
two other Korean guys
leave the hotel and jump in front of
me and jump into the taxi.
Now, not so dissimilar to the behavior of
a lot of people in a lot of
big cities. And I've seen that happen in
New York too. Right. Yeah. But
(24:29):
but these two guys did it with such
it's okay, you know. Like, I'm not trying
to Is it okay? I'm not
exactly. That's the difference. Yeah. You know, I'm
not trying to get away with something. I
it's not like I know I'm doing something
bad, but I'm gonna get away with it
anyway. Right.
No. This is the way the game is
played. I don't know you. You don't know
(24:50):
me. We don't owe each other anything.
Okay.
So Now, again, you're speaking about that a
little more broadly in the Asian context, or
are you speaking about that specifically about Korea?
South Korea? I I think we're talking about
you'll see evidence of this kind of behavior.
In one way or another? Yes. In places
(25:11):
where
relationships drive
behavior.
Okay. Not rules
and processes. Okay.
Yeah. Or have traditionally.
Now, by the way, most of these places
are intention over this. Yeah. Right? Because they
know that
the the rest of the world might not
subscribe to this way of doing things. Right.
(25:32):
And and so the idea of applying some
sort of
protocol
or etiquette or even
a moral reason
not to do that
is a real consideration to me. Uh-huh. Right.
So not everybody is going to behave this
way, but traditionally,
and in these cultures, these traditions go back
5,000. Right. So they have a lot of
(25:54):
weight. Yeah. Yeah. So so traditionally, though, this
was an acceptable behavior. Right. If I don't
know you,
hey, you know? Sure.
Now once we know each other, then we're
very, very careful about our human relationship. So
does it swing
when you say very, very,
meaning it swings Very much the other way.
Much to the other. And then you get
all these apologies all the time. Okay. But
(26:15):
until that happens Yeah. There's no reason to
apologize.
Yeah. Then you take the flip side, you
go to London,
and and as soon as you, you know,
bump into a stranger,
then you get you're setting off this whole
apology bomb that goes back and Sure. And
so what's that about? You know, why do
we apologize
to strangers?
Uh-huh. Right? And and and then when we
(26:37):
get to know each other,
once we get to know each other, then
we can act much more truthfully with each
other. Right. So the it's it's once the
relationship starts
in
London,
then we can be honest with each other.
Right. But
but until that time, we have to be
very respectful of intruding
(26:59):
on
or or causing any kind of discomfort
to the stranger.
I see what you're saying. Yeah. A Korean
friend of mine said, actually, once he says
it's very strange in the West,
you're you're very, very,
kind with strangers Yes. But not so kind
with the with the people
The closest to you. Yeah. And then in
(27:19):
Korea,
we're
extremely
kind with the people who mean the most
to us.
But why do we care about strangers we
don't know? Right. Right. So there's a logic
to both of these things. Right? Well, it
of some some work
of some kind.
Yeah. Sure. It's it's
(27:40):
that's really interesting. And then why did the
guy the Chinese guy in the pool in
Beijing
slam into the into the western swimmer, and
then come up and laugh at him. Right.
But but but what is exactly what was
the reason? Did did your friend ever find
out what the reason was behind the laughter?
(28:00):
Yeah. Sure. Well, the laughter, that's the cultural
piece. Well, it is. But I'm wondering is
that an embarrassment or Exactly. Okay. The guy
realized he caused an accident and that he
was at fault. Is that what's the reaction?
Alright. So anybody can do that. Right? But
it's about the reaction.
Yeah. Instead of getting an apology,
the more important issue in Chinese culture Mhmm.
(28:22):
Especially since you're a stranger. That's Mhmm. Like
the the
old lady with the with her elbows in
my ribs. Right.
The more important issue with the stranger is
to
make the situation
comfortable because clearly what you did
was you caused you caused the situation to
be uncomfortable.
Yep. You made a mistake. Yeah. So you
(28:44):
lost face.
Okay. And and you caused the the the
the bumpy
to also or the bumper, I don't know,
to also lose face. Maybe the water was
cold.
That may have created the the bumpiness. For
whatever reason. Oh, okay.
So the way to set everything right Uh-huh.
Is to laugh about it. Yeah. Sure. And
(29:04):
please join me in the laughter. No. Okay.
The response
from the western swimmer
should have been
to laugh with him. Right. Okay. No. That's
interesting. That's that's unlike road rage. Right? You're
Yeah. Now then so now let's We're on
the other end of this spectrum. Some of
these other cultures. Right. Let's look at The
(29:25):
US where all you gotta do is Well
get in your car and look at somebody,
and it's like I'm chest bumping you all
the time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now we're in
total confrontation.
Right? Until most of people until you get
out of the car, and then it becomes
a different approach. But if if,
okay. Let's but let's jump back to to
England now
(29:46):
for a because I mentioned
a little earlier that
Torin had this
article, I believe, Torin, that
right? That's right. Yet you
that he read in the New York Times
regarding
trains
and and and primarily England, I think, and
(30:07):
Right. The and apologizing. Oh, I believe I
saw that article. Did you? Because they weren't
running on time, and so Yeah. The Well
well, Tor, what what what fill us in.
Yeah. I was talking about this one railway
company in The UK in particular and how
there had been more schedule changes than usual,
more upgrades
going on than usual. So there were more
complaints coming in to this railway company.
(30:30):
So it sort of started there. The article
began there, but then it generalized a little
bit to talking about the different railway companies
in The UK and saying how,
typically, there's a lot of apologizing going on.
In fact, it was saying for this one
railway company, Great Western,
they will, on average, submit,
or I should say tweet,
(30:50):
so submit on Twitter over 100 apologies
per day.
And there was actually one other UK railway
company that,
tweets out more apologies per day. So this
was not uncommon.
And in fact, there's a website that you
can go to that collects UK Railway apologies
called sorryfortheinconvenience.c0.uk.
So you can go there and see those
(31:11):
apologies for yourself. But it was saying how
great Western has their own social media team.
I think there were six people on the
team where their full time job is to
wait for complaints to come in on Twitter
and to reply to them in real time
and apologize, and to make those apologies as
personal and as warm as possible.
And the article even actually sort of related
back to the last couple of episodes that
(31:32):
that we did because it was mentioning how
just to what, you know, Dean,
you were talking about, where there's a lot
of apologizing going on, generally speaking, in The
UK, and how the word pardon
comes up over 300 times across
all of Shakespeare's plays.
So it connects right back to,
Shakespeare that we were talking about the last
couple of episodes. And and again, this idea
(31:53):
of a lot of apologizing going on in
The UK. Right.
of all, that's an amazing number of of
apologies
in,
for the train people. I mean, I'm thinking
about in in especially in New York with
in in this whole Northeastern
United States region where the train system is
basically one gigantic
(32:15):
disaster
on a regular basis. And
they're talking about all sorts of work being
done, which is a good thing, but it
it's a mess.
And and I nobody's apologizing
for anything. Wait a minute. A public works
project
like
trains
transportation
(32:35):
based on the premise of
individuals giving up their
personal private right to get around in their
own personal private vehicle
isn't working
in The US? I don't know if we
wanna go that far. I think,
(32:55):
yeah. I think that idea is changing, by
the way. But Well, it is. It's gonna
be an evolutionary
process. Yes, I believe.
Unless there's a major thing that happens to
to move it along. We don't we don't
like to give up our own individual things
in The United States. No. That's it. It
it it's a very strongly individualistic
oriented culture. And Yep. Anything that challenges the
(33:17):
individual's right to do whatever they want
as at the expense of and to be
in competition
with the rights of other individuals
Mhmm. Is considered an okay thing Mhmm. Until
it reaches a point where it becomes so
obviously not
not doable.
Great. That's another podcast, and
(33:38):
which which we'll probably get to soon. But,
right now
so before we get away from the article,
the
the the idea
of the it's I almost
hear this as what you were talking about
before, but being used
a little differently. And when I say that,
I mean the
(33:59):
apology
ahead
of this situation.
So that
it it almost sounds like the the greater
use in this kind of in this area
with the trains
is being done because
it may be able to
soften the blow. Mhmm. And then protect those
who
(34:20):
are creating the problems or Yeah. And maybe
not I mean, they may be trying to
do good things, but there's going to be
difficulties, hardships.
It's going to maybe making something that is
used in The UK.
The train system is used extensively.
It's a small island, and getting people around.
I mean, that is where the Industrial Revolution
(34:41):
began historically.
They built the train. And what it is
is a vital,
thriving,
part of London life.
So all of that, along with the regular
train system,
which all of this apologizing
is coming from,
It sounds to me that Don't you think
or am I misreading this? Well,
(35:02):
I think you're right.
I think that,
I don't want to say that
I don't want to imply that there are
people in Britain who wouldn't think
that think cynically
around this and who wouldn't be surprised that,
they were having to make all these apologies
and that they were very disingenuous
with these apologies. Mhmm. I I'm sure there
(35:25):
are lots of folks who would feel that
way and I'm not gonna say that's wrong
because I'm not experiencing
the the fallout the way they would the
way they do.
But at the same time, I think there
is an element to this that is genuine.
Where there where it is coming from a
place
where from a cultural perspective,
(35:46):
we're having to admit that something is wrong.
So it's really there is an honesty to
it, you're thinking. Yeah. I think it's An
obligation
perhaps, A little bit obligatory. Right. And I
think that element
is missing
in the Northeastern trade system. Oh, absolutely.
Mhmm. Where where I, number one, because I
(36:08):
can say it because I am here and
I am experiencing it
can be very cynical about it. Mhmm. Oh,
yes. Because I don't believe
that there is any real sense of apology.
Right. Right. For what's going on or any
real caring
for the consequences of of what this does
(36:29):
to the individual.
Because we don't have that piece built into
our culture. No. In fact,
I'm gonna jump in and say,
again, because of coming from The US and
the Northeastern US,
that
the the idea would be
they're not going to start to apologize
until somebody comes after them
(36:50):
with a problem that they may have caused.
And even then, they'll probably try to get
to defend
it before they revert to,
apologizing. Yeah. Absolutely.
Because the the reasons why the system is
working the way it is
have greater validity
than the consequence
(37:11):
that it's causing a great deal of inconvenience
and suffering. Sure.
And so therefore, it is the way it
is. Yeah. You know? And I think that
missing element
of sincerely
believing that, gee, things are not right, and
we're gonna make it right. And until that
happens,
we're sorry about it. Right. That's just not
(37:33):
baked into The US DNA. Yeah. Yeah.
Well, we're done.
Actually, we we kind of are. But as
you know, it takes us a while to
finish these. There are a lot of other
cultures we need to talk about this whole
thing about apologizing for. Okay.
Not just Well, I'm guessing that we're going
(37:54):
to go and in fact, we we we
will hang on. I'm gonna put my mouth
back on. Hang on. I just fell on
the floor. Let me get it. I'm sorry.
I didn't I didn't okay. We will address
this We will. Numerous times in the future.
We will come back as we will be
doing with other subjects that we've already,
addressed,
(38:14):
that we will be doing in the future
as well. Let's talk about those cultures where
even the hint of an apology Here we
go. Is considered,
we're never gonna do that.
What?
Oh. No. We we you and I will
do that. Oh, I see. Okay. I was
really throwing a lot of quotation marks. I
think our train has left the station now.
(38:35):
That's
so, Torin. Hey. Torin, we wanna thank you
for bringing us the information
on,
on England. Sure. I'm sorry I didn't bring
it around. You don't have to apologize. Okay.
Okay. Okay. Well, by the way, I'm sorry
that we didn't do grammar time in this
episode because I know everyone loves grammar time.
Mhmm. Not grandma time, but grammar time. It's
(38:59):
Everybody feels close to grandma time. Do they?
Don't they? No.
You never met my grandma. Everybody. That's for
sure. Yeah. Okay. It's fine.
We could look into that. Elderly,
people and the relationship in their families throughout
cultures.
Nuclear
families and and and extended families. Are we
(39:19):
having some sort of radiation
going on? Or It's possible.
New
nuclear. You live to a certain age. You
might need some. Yeah.
I will say
thank you, Dean, for Thank you, Tom. For
your insights. Once again, it it's been it's
been stimulating.
(39:39):
Good. I'm I think I'm sorry for using
that word, but it's it's been stimulating. And
if I've
offended you or any of our listeners in
any way,
I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah.
You know what?
Oops.
Your culture's showing.
Sorry.
(40:07):
Smell you. Just wanna bother you one last
time to say we're a brand new podcast
here at Oops Your Culture Showing
and we could really use your help by
subscribing to the podcast.
And not to mention that if if you
hung around this long and and you liked
what you heard, well, this makes it just
easier for you to get the podcast. They'll
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you can listen to them on your phone
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them. And it's easy to get too. Just
subscribe using iTunes or wherever you get your
podcast from.
It really isn't hard, and we could really
use your support.
So from all of us here at Oops
(40:49):
Your Culture Showing,
thanks.
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