January 25, 2024 • 36 mins
With next month marking 10 years since Russia's invasion and annexation of Crimea in Ukraine, and 2 years since the start of the current war there, we will continue to keep Ukraine & Ukrainians in our ears, hearts, and minds with this special reissue of our “For Ukrainians, the sunflower is an incredibly powerful symbol” episode from April 2022. 🇺🇦 Slava Ukraini 🇺🇦 Stay well & stay strong, dear listeners - and stay tuned for new episodes of Oops, Your Culture's Showing! in the coming months.
Dean and Tom are back to talk about the use and importance of symbols across cultures, otherwise known as “going the full Robert Langdon” (you know, the main protagonist in Dan Brown’s novels). Being the super symbologists they are, Dean and Tom decipher what iconic symbols have to tell us about the Russian invasion of Ukraine, while also decoding symbols that have arisen from other conflicts, such as in Hong Kong, the United States, and more. (For more on protest symbols in Russia, here is the April 15, 2022 episode of the Rough Translation podcast from NPR.)
Have a cultural question or episode idea for Dean and Tom? Reach out on Twitter and Facebook (@OopsCultureShow) or by email at oopscultureshow@gmail.com.
Music: “Little Idea” – Bensound.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
- Okay, we are rolling.
And you're making banging noises
over there. For some reason,
- I'm keeping myself awake.
- I'm not sure. Wow.
- I'm sticking myself with a poker. Nice
-.
Well, here we are in thestudio, and, and, um,
and first of all, we're, we're glad
to be back in the studio.
We're glad to be back recording again.
(00:21):
We've taken a littlehiatus and we are back.
And, um, so, uh, anyway, that's, that's,
I'm Tom Peterson and
- Dean Foster. And
- We have Torin withus today, our producer.
Hello. Hey, we're allto, we're all in studio.
Sorry, I didn't mean to stepon your, uh, hello there, Dean.
You didn't, I didn't. No.Oh, I tried to.
(00:43):
Um, all right.
Well, so we've been trying to figure out
what the heck we should talkabout in this, in this podcast.
And, um, and I'm thinking weshould talk about something
that is, um, currently notorious
the symbols of, well,
I'm not talking aboutan instrument in a band.
I'm talking about, uh, yeah.Thank you,. Thank you.
(01:05):
Simple section came to life.
- Actually, we can I geta range shot? We probably,
that we meet.
We'll need that from timeto time.. Yeah.
- Yeah. Okay. I'm all over it.
I played percussion in highschool, so I'm all over it.
Got a snare drum available.I, I do actually. Not
- Far from your Nice, how about a penny
whistle? Very nice.
- I don't, I'll find it though.Penny whistle. Remember her?
- I, I think I dated herin the seventh grade.
- In the seventh grade. It'salways the seventh grade.
(01:26):
Interesting. That was a busy year for you.
- Oh, it was a very busy year.
- Yeah. Seventh grade afterthat was all downhill. Uh oh.
Well, um, yeah, no, it's not,
not symbols like you crash inan, in a band or an orchestra,
but, uh, symbols like,uh, symbology, like, um,
what Dan Brown has made a lotof money writing about. Oh,
- Well, you know, this is,there's a cultural piece to this,
(01:49):
- By the way, Mr. Brown,if you would like to, uh,
contact us, we will, wewill put you on the podcast.
Probably. Um,,I'm sorry, Dean. There's
- A cultural piece to this.
Is there? That's amazing.
The culture has its symbols there,
and there are cultural symbols
for everything all around the world.
It's probably one of themost, uh, unique aspects
of just being human.
(02:09):
The humans have beencreating symbols since,
since, since the dawn. Maybe even
- The dawn.
- Even the dawn might be it.
Even the words that you andI are using right now Yes.
Are symbols. They're justnothing but symbols. There's
- Nothing but symbols.
They lead to pictures,visualizations, uh, actions. Exactly.
- Things like that. Or themeaning of a word, you know, is,
is, is is the symbol of the meaning.
(02:31):
- You get, you have to- The word the symbol
of the, of its of its own. Meaning.
- The symbol means nothing at its own.
People have to give something
to it in order for it tomean something. Exactly.
- You know, this is semi- Well, we
summed that up quickly,didn't we? This is,
- We didn't, can I and everybody?
No, we just opened the door. Oh, we
- Could somebody shut the door.
It's killing the sound in here.
- This is what we, this is semiotics.
(02:51):
The, the whole, excuse me, a whole field
of linguistics, and I think
- You can take something for that.
Now,,
- Some people would I pick- Local pharmacist
- and Well, you know,
there's an interestingVV very fascinating.
- We'll be the judge of that,
- Uh, phenomenon.
I think it's, I think it'scalled semantic satiation.
(03:12):
Semantic. S satiation you
- Say, easy for you to say. And,
- And it proves that theword is merely a vehicle
for symbolizing the conceptthat the meaning stands
for of the word.
Like here's the, here'sthe phenomenon. Okay.
If you say a word over
and over and over and over and over again,
(03:33):
- It loses its meaning. It
- Loses its meaning, and you just hear the
sound of the word and the sound, and
- You can't even rememberhow to spell it. Right.
- And the word becomesvery weird. Right. Right.
That's right. Like if I sayweird, weird, weird, weird,
weird, weird, weird, weird.
This is semantic satiation.
- He does that again. Hithim with the poker. Okay.
My poker, yeah. It, but it
- A weird, it prove, it proves the fact
(03:54):
that the word is just the symbol.
Right. For the meaning behind the word.
- Right. Uhhuh. It's, yeah.
- So how - Does this, no one'sarguing with you,.
- I'm not looking for an argument,
but if you want an argument,
- Stop fighting you and me outside.
He a oh look, is not good..
(04:15):
Or maybe it's really good. We're not sure.
- So what's the cultural piece to this?
- I don't know. That's your game.
- Cultures use symbols all the time.
- Yeah. Okay.
So, so, so give me a, give mean idea of what you might use
a symbol for in a culture.
Why would a culture use a symbol? Well,
- Well, the, that, that,
(04:35):
- Because it seems like anindirect way of communicating.
- That's right. And so where are
the, where's the benefit of that?
- It has to be, I don'tknow, again, to be a benefit.
Think that's his job,isn't it? I think so.
- Okay. Many times whatit does is it allows you
to say something or infer,well imply something.
Mm-Hmm. withoutactually having to say it.
Because actually saying itis gonna get you into big
(04:57):
sru, big trouble
-.
Thank you for interpreting.
- It's - A small part of theaudience out there,.
- So if you can't say itdirectly, Uhhuh,
you use a symbol that implies it.
- Hmm. Ah,- Right.
So, you know, one of thethings that comes to mind,
and we've, we've had, we'vediscussed this in other,
(05:17):
other episodes, is hand gestures.
This is the most obvious symbol. Okay.
If you, if you don't saysomething, you, you can't, you,
I'm not responsible for having said it,
but I indicated it with, with a gesture.
Mm-Hmm, sure.
And we're all familiar with the
scatological ge hand gestures. Sure.
- Some are acceptableand some are far less
- Acceptable.
And the fact that the samegesture might have different
meanings in different cultures.
Right. And I think wediscussed this in previous,
(05:40):
I think we have discuss Mm-Hmm.
. Yep. Well, the same thing.
So that, that's a,that's one of the reasons
to avoid associationof guilt with something
that's going to get you in trouble.
- Right. - Okay. You know,so you say it, it's a code.
Yeah. It's a code.
Now the trouble withcodes is that you have
to understand the code in order to be able
(06:00):
to interpret it the way the sender meant.
Right. So unless I'm alsopart of that information,
if I'm a member of the sametribe, if I'm a citizen
of the same country, if I'mon the same side of an issue
as you are, I probably know the code.
Mm-Hmm.. But ifI'm not, I'm outside of that.
(06:22):
Yeah. And, and being outsideof it is good for the insiders
'cause they're not gonna getin trouble with the outsiders.
Mm. But being on the, on theoutside is also not so good
for the code, because it means
that not everybody understands it.
- I have no idea what sideI'm on now., .
Am I in, am I out? I think I'm outside.
I, I think you right now.Yes. Uh, am I, yeah. Okay.
(06:43):
. Well, let get thatdoor open and let me back in.
There's a lot, there's,there's a coated message.
There's a lot that'snot coded at all. .
I, I, I hate to say this,
but I think I actuallyfollowed you on that.
Yeah. For those of youlistening, I, if I were you,
I'd rewind and and goback at it again. Uh, just
- And just listen again.
Yeah. And listen again
(07:04):
and listen again until all thewords lose and mean, and then
- Speed it up, up sothat dean sounds like a
chipmunk, if that's even better.
Okay. It'll look like we have a,
a billion listeners, so please go ahead.
. Listen, many timeswe don't Hold on. What just
- So, so many things arecodes how we dress as a code.
Okay. How we wear our hair is a code hair.
(07:24):
And is remarkable for its coding.
Really for the oh, forthe message that it sends.
The way, the way we choose towear our hair hairstyles, it,
it's coated, uh, to indicate whether
or not you are of acertain group or Oh sure.
Or not of a certain group ofthe colors that we use to dress
(07:46):
with, the colors thatwe use to identify our,
our identity or associationwith a particular group.
Uhhuh.Mm-Hmm. , um,
throughout history.
Mm-Hmm., we've got tons
and tons of different examples of this.
I mean, I think back tothe, uh, what was it?
The War of the Roses in England
and the 14th century, 14th,15th, hundreds, you had the war
of the roses, the white rose.
(08:07):
Right. And the red rose. Right.
And so everybody knows whichsides you're on, you know?
Right. Mm-Hmm.symbols are like emotions.
Symbols are to society as to emotions are
to individuals.
They're shortcuts to
understanding something.
In other words, individualemotions through evolution
(08:30):
gave us the, uh, ability to
feel something in response
to a particular situationwhich allowed us action.
Mm-Hmm. to deal
with. And you can to deal with that,
- It becomes, you can group feel it at
that point, and you'repart of that group. Right.
- And that, well, that'swhere culture comes in. Right.
Okay. Right. But even pre culture, just
as when we were Neanderthals Mm-Hmm.
(08:50):
the whole idea. But you
- Were a Neanderthal. Go ahead.
- I have, I have 6% Neanderthal.
- I, you, we you had to tell us that,
or we knew that. We know
- Pretty much.
And I think, I think I thinkthe average is like four,
- 4%.
Is that right? Uh, well,
I wondered why you were always walking
around picking up berries
and things like thatand eating them. Don't
- Short sell the Neanderthals.
(09:12):
- Well, I'm, I did I I actuallyshortell them some of my,
uh, some of my stock.
Yeah, you sold, it was, it was a
- Big deal. You sold it the wrong
- Time.
They're pretty stupid. You know,
they don't know the stock
exchange. Yeah, that's probably fine.
- Then it went up, right,
-.
That's right. It went upimmediately.. Yep.
Smart move on my part.Yeah. Well done. Oh, well.
- Well, so emotions are, are shortcuts
to giving us information as to what
(09:32):
to do in a particular situation.
Mm-Hmm. insteadof having to intellectually
try to figure out, oh,what's the best thing for me
to do given this situation?
Mm-Hmm. ouremotions give us action. Mm-Hmm.
Now sometimes it, we act on our emotions
and it doesn't solve the problem.
It makes the problem worse.We is why we've developed
intelligence subsequent
(09:53):
to the evolutionarydevelopment of emotion.
Mm-Hmm.symbols do the same thing.
- Yeah. Yeah.- They are shortcuts to all of us
inside the tribe,identifying with the tribe
and everybody outsidethe tribe saying, whoops,
they're on the inside andI'm on the outside, or Right.
They're part of them andnot part of me. Yeah.
(10:13):
- So if, let me see if Ican take this in a direction
that goes to if, if it's a,if it's a very visible one,
not ones that you're tryingto do as a subterfuge
of some kind to getaway with something or,
or to overthrow somethingor anything like that, but,
but a very obvious form of symbolism,
(10:36):
then we could look atnational flags. Yeah,
- Exactly.
That. There's a perfect exampleof a s of symbols. Right.
Okay. Yeah. And,
and the, you, let's take a look at the
current situation with Ukraine.
Okay. Right. The colors ofthe Ukrainian flag. Yellow and
- Blue, I- Think blue.
Yes. Right. It flew outta my mind
for a second. I wasthinking of the fact that
(10:56):
- Should be a neanderthal partof his in the mind.
- Took over, we had just gonethrough, it went berries.
We, we just gone through,through Easter and Passover
and I, I went to a SAPassover Seder, um, last week.
And they had the egg, which is a symbol,
a very ancient symbol on the,of the, on the Passover plate.
Uhhuh of therebirth of spring. Right.
(11:19):
Um, and, but the host
of the Seder died the Easteregg, the Ukrainian colors.
Mm. Ah, because it's a,
because it is a, a holidayof festival of freedom. Mm.
- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.- Alright.
So those colors, um, the blue is the sky,
it's the symbol for the sky.
And the yellow is thesymbol of the sunflower. Oh.
Which grows all overthe U Ukraine. Oh, okay.
(11:41):
And, um, these two forces,these two natural forces
create what is fundamentally,I think, part of the reason
for the current situation.
Because the Ukraine hasalways been the breadbasket
of Russia, if not theworld, Uhhuh.
So it's been the farmland,not only sunflowers,
(12:02):
but the, but wheat and allsorts of things would be grown
and produced in Ukraine.
Mm-Hmm.. And without it,
because it's so far southgeographically than Russia
so much further south than Russia.
Geographically, if you comparethe production in the Ukraine
of food with the productionof, of food in Russia
(12:23):
to the north, it, it, it,
it vastly overwhelms the Russian numbers.
Russians have been basicallysurviving on Ukrainian food,
on Ukrainian sunflowers,on Ukrainian wheat.
Yeah. And so the colorsthat are used in the symbols
of Ukraine represent this.
Hmm. And if you understandthe power of these symbols,
(12:44):
you know, Ukrainians under,
for them the sunflower isincredibly powerful symbol.
Mm-Hmm., um, you know,
you look at the symbols in Russia, uh,
a powerful symbol in Russiathat I think is iconic
to understanding Russianculture is the matrika doll.
The doll within the doll. Withinthe doll. Within the doll.
(13:05):
Right. Right. Nesting doll.The nesting doll. Mm-Hmm.
. That's right. And so you,
why is this iconicallysymbolic of Russian culture?
Because I think one of theessentials things you need
to understand aboutRussian culture I is, is
that there's always thissuperficial outer shell,
and it hides an inner shell,which hides an even fruit,
(13:28):
a deeper inner shell,which hide, which hides an,
and the, the, the baby
inside the deepest partis very, very fragile.
Mm-Hmm. And very, very weak. Mm-Hmm.
And needs to be protected Mm-Hmm.
By these levels, layers and layers
and layers that keep going tothe out, out and out and out.
(13:52):
Sure. So the blustery overthe top, super emotional,
um, bombastic, rhetorical outside.
- Yeah.- The threatening outside the,
the, the, the use of the weapons, the,
the constant threats. Mm-Hmm.
-. Yeah.- This is all an out
(14:14):
an exterior cover
- Hmm.
To protect that inner,inner creature body. That's
- Whatever, that's what'sdriving it. Yeah. Yeah.
- Right.- Huh.
- You, we look at Russia.Russia is a very large country.
There's gotta be, as there isin other large countries in
(14:36):
the United States, China, others,
there's gonna be differences across there.
Moscow is a, is is a far more western, uh,
city than much of the rest of the country,
- Geographically. It is, yes.
- Yeah. And, um, so is it d do and,
and I, I don't know, maybeit's not easy to know this
because it is still Russiaand it's somewhat secretive,
(14:59):
but across the country, isthere a reason to believe
that there's a, is there adisconnect from the, the forces
that are running things nowand making these decisions?
Is there a, is there, uh, that is,
and is it symbolizedin any way in, in that,
or is that just another, um,is that just another enigma
of Russia that we reallydon't know much about?
(15:21):
- Well, you know, vast,vast lands within Russia are
super underpopulated.
Mm-Hmm. And we're looking at
tundra, we're looking at Mm-Hmm.
You know, um, a a a lotof just vast land area,
but not too many people.
Right. And then there are other areas
where there's lots and lots of people.
Right. Yes. Right. Okay.
Um, I think your pointis well taken, Tom, you,
(15:43):
you do have Moscow, um, trying very hard
to keep this vast empire within an empire.
Mm-Hmm., there'sthe Mareska doll again. Yeah.
Uh, even within Russiaas a nation state today,
it's Ru Moscow still hasdifficulty controlling
every part of that landmass.
(16:05):
And the, the, the fear always is that
somebody somewhere is gonnabreak away from our control.
Mm-Hmm.. Andso we've gotta, we've really
gotta maintain a lot of control.
And therefore it's, it's anatural crucible for autocracy.
Mm-Hmm.recognize that, that never,
ever in the history of Russiahave there been any moments
(16:30):
of democracy except veryshort-lived sparks here and there.
Hmm. Just before, during, andjust after the revolution.
Mm-Hmm. And the Civil War.Mm-Hmm..
But, but it's inconsequential really,
because they went straightfrom feudalism and cism Mm-Hmm.
. Right, right.To to, to basically communism.
Right. To basically gangsterism,
(16:50):
which is what we have today.
Right? Mm-Hmm..Yeah. So there's no tradition
whatsoever for, for any kind,
for holding anything togetherother than OO other than
steely autocracy. Mm-Hmm..
- Right.- So, to your point Y yes.
Moscow is fearful that it willal that it will lose control
of what's going on within its realms.
(17:12):
Mm-Hmm. andsees the current situation as,
as proof the failure ofthe Soviets, the collapse
of the Soviets as proofthat without this kind
of steely autocracy, they arein fact going to collapse.
Hmm. And, and,
and the evidence of that for them is
that the West is out therecircling around, ready
(17:33):
to take advantage of anysituation where they can, uh,
they can undermine the authority
of the Russians in that re in the region.
Mm-Hmm. andUkraine represents that. Mm-Hmm.
, because the majority
of the people in the Ukraine voted, voted
to be part of the west.Right? Mm-Hmm..
- Right, - Right. So Russiacan simply not allow that.
Mm-Hmm.. Mm-Hmm.
(17:53):
, um, you know,the symbols of, of, of the,
of Czars Russia was the two-headed eagle.
And still, it's still on the Russian,
it's still the Russian,uh, state seal, I think.
Hmm. Okay. So the eagle isalways looking east to make sure
that everybody there isunder the control of Moscow.
Yeah. And also west Yeah.
(18:14):
To make sure that the westdoesn't do anything to, to,
to stop us from maintainingthese, the hard grip
that we need to have over thelands, over which we should
over the lands, over whichin which there are Russians.
- Sure. Alright. So
- Symbols, A double-headed eagle. Right.
- Double-headed eagle.There we go. Yeah. Which co
- Code of arms of Russia- Coat of arms of Russia.
(18:36):
- Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Theproducer finally did something.
You're welcome. That's good. But
- It's interesting now thatthe, the symbol, this idea
of symbols during this timeof war with Ukraine Mm-Hmm.
is, is becoming a code, this
becoming coded languagefor which side you are on.
- Hmm. Right. So whatare some of those symbols
(18:57):
that we're seeing that are, um,
showing us both sides, I guess?
- Well, you know, I thinkabout both sides, I think.
Yeah. The, the Russian Z
- Yeah. Yeah. I've seen
- That.
Where does that come from? I don't under,
I've never seen the etymology of
- It.
I don't know. I'm not,I'm not sure. I mean,
I can take a look, but I remember
hearing it was sort of unknown.
- Right. It's not like aWorld War Z reference. Is it?
It could be, it could be,
it could be a theory. Yeah.
(19:18):
- I'll take a look. Ithink it is not entirely
- Sure. Okay.
- So that's being used tosymbolize support for the war.
- Right, right, right.
- But the need for coded symbol symbolism,
if you are against the war,particularly in Russia Right.
Is absolutely powerful.
So I've been hearing about different codes
(19:40):
that have developed toindicate by Russians
who do not support the war,that they are not, uh, you know,
uh, of supporting the,the supporting Moscow
or Putin I should say, butthey're against the war.
Um, Russians are very proud
of the contributions they'vemade to, to the world.
And Russian culture hasbeen, um, in many aspects
(20:05):
of Russian cultural literature,the arts particularly,
and I think of ballet, becomesymbols of Russian, uh,
contributions to the world.
Sure. They're very proud of the ballet.
- Sure. Yeah. They should
- Be Tchaikovsky's Great ballet.
Mm-Hmm. Swan Lake. Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm.
is used
and has been used historically in Russia,
- But I remember hearing that- Yeah.
In, in many different ways.
(20:27):
Politically, it becameused as a symbol, as a tool
for the fact that the government,
whenever one of theleaders died, and the, and,
and the decision makersin Moscow didn't know
who the next leader was gonna be.
Right. They played SwanLake on state media.
And so every time you heardSwan Lake being played, it meant
(20:49):
that government catastrophe has happened.
, somebody, uh, our,our, our great leader has died,
and we're awaiting the,the next, the next news as
to who's gonna be running the country.
Ah. And so the ballet
and the symbol of theballet dancer has been used
by those against the war as a statement
(21:11):
that the government is in trouble.
Okay. And we're, and we'regoing to have to change
that government, or thatgovernment needs to change.
Ah, okay. Or will change.
- So is it being used now? I
- Believe so.
I think the pro protestorshave been doing that. Okay.
Now, because of the, uh,very punitive new laws
that have come down whereyou, you're not supposed
(21:33):
to protest the war.
Right. In Russia. Right.
Um, those who are protestingthe war are getting rounded
up and, and jailed.
Mm-Hmm.. Yes. So I,
I think I was reading aboutprotestors who instead
of showing up, um, with protest signs,
no war, they were showingup with signs that said no,
(21:53):
first letter of the Russian word for war.
And then the remaining lettersindicated by an asterisk.
- Oh.- Uh, okay.
- It, the remaining relic letters. Yeah.
- Right. Okay. I heardthis. Yeah. On a podcast.
There was a podcast from NPR,
rough translation. That was, that's
- Right.
That's right. Yeah. Yeah.Well, of course, you know, the,
the Russian securityforces are looking, so,
(22:16):
so this is an education for them.
Mm-Hmm. And then they go, they have
to reinterpret whateverthe code is as to whether
or not it's worthy of an arrest.
So they're learningwhatever the new code is.
And the trick is, ofcourse, to try to learn
that code faster than anybody else does.
Right. And before it becomes,
before it becomes, thenyou move on, then you,
(22:37):
you force them to move on.
But anyway, and everyculture's got its symbols.
I mean, torn, you werein Hong Kong Yeah. Um,
- A few years ago. A
- Few years ago.
During the, during the,the, the, the strikes, the
- Protests, yeah.
The protest that werehappening there. Yeah.
When you were talkingabout colors as symbols,
I was remembering myfriend who I was visiting
who would live there for manyyears, was saying how, um, red
as symbolized pro Beijing,which makes sense.
(22:59):
Um, yellow symbolized pro, um, democracy
and blue represent pro-police.
So it was similar to pro-Chinawith the authorities.
- And didn't the protestsinitially start, um,
with the symbol of the umbrella?
- Yes. Right. And yeah,
it was the umbrella movement. Mm-Hmm.
-. Right. And why was the
umbrella chosen as this?
I don't remember as thissymbol. Yeah.
(23:19):
- But I could look it up.- Please do.
- I'll. But yes, itwas, yeah, that's right. Yeah.
And so those are verypowerful symbols. Symbols.
And like you're talking about folks,
when they saw the certaincolors, and it would be
outside different restaurantsand be, and people's clothes,
and they knew, okay, these are folks
that I can relate to. And,
- But, but let me justjump in for a second.
Or I'm wondering, I'm, I'm wondering if
(23:40):
with the symbols like that,then depending on where the,
where we, where it goes, where everybody,
where everything goes, what, what
- Happens?
You mean how this conflictworks out with Ukraine,
- This conflict or any conflictover in the past, ah, with,
depending on where it ends up.
And, and of course that'san ongoing conflict
with Hong Kong also,
and where, so where it, whereit ends up, those symbols
(24:03):
can at some point become iconic
and become part of theculture in some ways, right?
- Yes, absolutely. And then they become
institutionalized as Yeah.
Usually the victor's symbols.
- Exactly. That's what I'm saying. Yeah.
That, that they would havethose as, as something that,
and I'm wondering if it's afailure if those symbols just go
by the wayside and, and
(24:25):
or get put over here in the, in the file
that says symbols not tobe used in the near future.
- Absolutely. These usuallybecome taboo. Yeah. Or
- Get outlawed overnight.
The swastika. Yeah. Ly outlawed.
- The swastika wasnothing more than just a,
an ancient Hindu symbol. Right,
- Right, right.
It's been used before, of course.
- Sure. And then it becamecorrupted by the Nazis.
(24:45):
By the Nazis. Right. And then it became
verboten. I mean, you can't do
- It. No, you can't.
- Absolutely not. So thesymbol itself has no meaning
whatsoever, but it's the meaning
that the symbol represents what
- You apply to it. Precisely.
- Yes. And that's what culture does.
Culture says, I'm gonna givethis symbol a meaning. Yes.
And that's where it suddenlybecomes very, very powerful.
(25:05):
- Sure. - So, I remember now,my friend did tell me this,
so umbrellas were popular in the protest
because they could be used to protect,
people could protectthemselves against tear
gas being fired by the police.
- Ah.- They served a purpose,
and then they can assemble from that.
Right. Very interesting. Um,the z by the way, in Russia,
so it, there are theoriesthat's not clear,
but there were Zs put onthe Russian military tanks
(25:26):
to avoid friendly fire.
And so it's believed that it just came.
And then it just really, the Z
- Stood out.
So the Z was saying justit's us, not them. Mm-Hmm.
. And so leaveus alone. Why wouldn't
- They use this R
- So again, purpose, I dunno,,
but it seemed to serve a purpose.
And so then it justbecame a symbol for Yeah,
- That's a good question.
I I it may have meant somethingelse also within all of that
(25:47):
- Could Yeah.
That it seems to be unclear. Yeah.
- Yeah. We don't know atthis stage. Yeah. Huh. Well,
- Why are we talkingabout symbols and culture?
- Why,- Because, oops,
- Your culture's showing.
Yeah. We decided to wait tillthe end to do it this time.
(26:08):
forgot about that. Oh, wow.
You know what, you know what also,
- Oops.
Something else is showing too. Yeah.
- Forget, there certainly is a lot a lot's
showing something sticking outta here.
We just sue into theconversation. Oh, man.
- Well, well, we areof a certain generation
and we are of at least,at least I out Well speak
(26:29):
- For yourself of Yeah,- Exactly.
And, you know, what were thecultural symbols in our gen?
Because in my generation, Ican vividly remember the, the,
the, the, the confusion
and the, um, intensity of the sixties.
- Well, there's onemajor one that was there
- And there, and thatwas driven by symbols.
- Yeah. There was a lot. But there was one
that was the predominant one.
(26:50):
There was one Which one wasthe peace sign? The peace sign.
Yeah. And that, I mean, thatwas the one that was, that was,
I think was the dominant one. And, and
- The peace sign, by the way was what?
Because it's not universal.
- What do you mean with what in
- The us?
What was the peace sign?
- Oh,- Was it a hand gesture? Was it a
- No?
Well, yeah, it was a hand gesture.
And it was a, it wasa drawn circle with a,
(27:14):
um, a
- A disarmament si symbol.
- Yeah. But it's a lot of discussion.
Again, you go back to, we'retalking about the z there's a
lot of discussion on where that, where
that sign inside the circle.
Mm-Hmm.comes from some people.
It's the foot of a dove.
Um, some people, oh, there's,
there's a few different things.
It really doesn't matter. All it matters
(27:34):
is what you were talking about before.
What it means now. Does it meanthat's a symbol? Yes. Yeah.
What does it mean?Because a lot of people,
when we were growing up,there was a lot of people
that sign meant, uh,things they did not like.
Sure. They were, they wereafraid of Mm-Hmm..
And that they did not like them.
And then you can look back atit in kind of the quaint way
of looking at the sixtiesand the early seventies
(27:54):
and think it's a, isn't that cool?
But it really, honestly,at that time, it was
so far from just being cool.
Sure. It meant a lot. And itmeant a lot on both sides.
Sure. Um, and it was a lot ofbroad, a lot of pushback on
that and a lot of dislike Sure.
About the peace sign as well.
I and the, and the hand figure of the,
of the right V two fingersup towards other people.
(28:16):
Towards, towards you. Yes.
- It has to be, it has to be palm out
- Saying two. Yes.
- Palm in is a whole, well, in- England that
- Was a problem- In Britain.
Yes. In, in the United States,it would, nobody cared.
But in, in here it was. But itwas that, anyway, two beers.
That is the peace sign. It's,it's the, uh, it's Right.
But it should be palm out. It'slike showing the number two
like that with your palmtoward whoever Churchill's
- Showing V for victory.
(28:38):
Right? Yes. It was from Churchill.
- Yes. 'cause if he did itthe other way, it was, uh,
which he probably did to Hitler also.
. Right. And if youdon't know what that means,
that means you haven't gonethrough all of our podcasts back
to a prior episode.
You've gotta go back to the beginning
- With the hand- Gestures and,
and check out the hand gestures.
Here's a hint that has nothing to do
with the Japanese toilet.
(28:59):
Okay? Mm-Hmm. There you go.
-.
- But as far as we know, asfar as we know,, um,
- Well, I remember as going through, um,
hearing it back then in the sixties.
Yeah. Um, the peace sign,the disarmament sign
that I think you were referring to,
which looks like the, the dove's foot.
(29:20):
- Yes. The, the mm-Hmm.
The dove's foot pointing
down, I guess you could say. Mm-Hmm.
- Yeah. That was, I I thinkoriginally used in Britain back
in the fifties, even before the sixties.
Yeah. Uh, during the beginningsof the disarmament movement,
Uhhuh and BertrandRussell was actually one
of the, uh, leaders of that
- Movement.
Disarmament, you're talkinglike missiles and things like
- That. Yes. Nuclear
- Disarm started.
Yeah. So it started to build up after,
(29:41):
after World War ii, right? Mm-Hmm.
-. Right. And so, um, the,
the ver the vertical sign wasthe missile, the vertical.
Right. Okay. And then, uh,
it was basically an an an Anto D mm-Hmm.
symbolsuperimposed over the missile.
- Okay. And - Okay. Yeah. Sothat, that's what, anyway,
(30:01):
- That's, that's a possibility
to what's an, an D What is that?
- Anto d you know, inEurope, the road signs
where you can't enter, it's a circle.
Do not enter, do not enter diagonal slash
Gotcha. Do not enter, except it
- Doesn't go all the way across. And I
- Use the French version.
- Wow. What a show off.
You know what part problem,you know, what we're, we,
(30:23):
we're gonna have to talkmore about this. Can
- We go here?
- No, no, no, no, no.
, which is clearly they use
that a lot in France. That's
- French for No, that's- Right.
Is that what that was? Yeah.
love it when he spit French.
I know. I love it. That'sgreat. You know,.
But look, I clearly,
there's another episodein this because, well,
(30:44):
- You know, we've just beendiscussing symbols and,
and I guess because of currentevents, Ukraine Yeah, yeah.
We, we started discussing,discussing symbols of protest.
Right. Uhhuh. But there's symbols of
so many things. Right? Well,
- Sure.
Right. Well, and, and,
and I mean, there's lots ofdifferent movements, which,
which cross borders and, and are,
and are approach to many different ways,
(31:05):
which is another area wecan get into at some point,
because you've got, uh,we can talk about the,
what's happened in the UnitedStates as far as things like,
uh, different movements, uh,whether it has to do with race,
or it has to do with gender,
or it has to do with, uh, uh, uh, choice
or any of those types things.
Sure. Yep. And, and any of those things.
And they're gonna havesymbols with them, which,
(31:26):
which they will find very powerful.
And again, others willfind disturbing. Right.
For what, whatever race, depending on what
- I'm, I'm gonna, I'mgonna go way out there.
- Oh, here he goes and- Say that everything, whoa.
Everything we do, every wordwe say, every gesture we make,
every article of clothingthat we put on, every color
that we choose, every, everypiece of food that passes
(31:47):
through our lips, everything we do,
every decision we makein every given movement
has all been pre-programmedin our, through our culture.
Is there free will? Yes.
And we can talk about the role
of free will in culture, but you're
- Blowing my mind.
But,
- But that's how much we are coded
(32:07):
and to some degree,controlled by our culture.
Mm-Hmm. Yeah. So,
- Oh, I've got a story about that.
- Okay. Coding as a symbol,
not the winter coating. Yes. But coding
- Or coding on a computer.
-. Right. Or codingon a computer. Right. Right.
- Now, which that one's and zeroes
- From your generation, that's
(32:27):
what you would think. Right. I'm
- Millennial, so that's- Okay.
So all coding in general, yes.
All of human activity is a code.
I'm sending you signals about
so many things just sittinghere opposite you talking about
- This.
And I'm a little disturbed by it.
-, we can't lookyou in the eye. I could
- Say very disturbed, but, um, yeah, sure.
(32:50):
Okay. Well, you can go out on
that limb right there,and you can say that.
And I'm gonna go home and I'm going
to pull the sheets over my head
and I'm never going to move again.
- And that's a code forsomething. Oh, it is. Damn. Yeah.
- Oh, got me again,.Just when I thought I was, I'll
- Buy that.
- I'll buy it. He pulled me back
- In-.
- And what you do underthose sheets is a code.
- All right. Now we're moving out.
(33:11):
Definitely don't hear about That's, it's
time to wrap it out. I
- Meant how you sleep.
- Oh, of course. Of course you do. Sure.
Uhhuh. Sure.Mm-Hmm. , thanks
for ruining it for everyone. I
- Mean, what directionare you facing? That's,
- That's according to, and Wow.
Oh my goodness. Well, you know,
- I'm in the group of notwanting to hear more about that.
- No. People are phoning inright now, actually. Insane.
(33:32):
No, we are taking calls. We're not,
we're not even broadcasting live.
Oh. So, okay. But people are
knowing this is happening. I to get
- Our number, but if you'd like to comment
- Yes.
If you, we, we do have ways you can get
- All us just yell,yelling at your phone or
whatever you're using to listen to
- This.
Just scream us We'll, your window, we'll
- Hear in.
And if you wanna, if you wanna find out
what direction Tom sleeps in, um, just let us know.
- I've actually, I've put acamera up in my room. Oh, no.
(33:55):
And, um, I'm going online now, dear.
So you'll be able to see me dear, dear.
And, uh, now that aloneshould be a symbol of just
absolute dread and fear right
- There.
Yeah. We need coating to
make sure that never gets out there,
- Right?
Yes. In a coat, maybe. Yeah.
- Lots of coating,- Lots of coats.
Just pile 'em up on top of me, please.
We beg you when All right.
Look at, we're gonna wrap this one up and,
(34:15):
but we'll revisit symbols
and, uh, maybe makesure at some point Yeah.
Maybe the whole drum kit atsome point.. Oh yeah.
Sorry, I forgot. Thank,yeah, thanks a lot.
They're taking a break.He got one job. Gosh.
Actually was taking one freaking
job. They should really stop
- Smoking. It's
- Not good for, I thoughthe, I thought he was asleep
facing the other direction.
- Put Mylas away and- Oh my gosh.
(34:35):
Well, Dean Foster, it'sgreat to be back in studio
with you again and, uh, terrific.
Terrific. And yeah, thank Well, terrific.
You're saying that aboutyourself or, uh, yes.
- And, and it's nice tohave you here too. Oh,
- Great.
Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot.
There's a symbol on that, butwe'll leave it alone for now.
That was code and, um,. .
It wasn't coded at all.It was pretty blatant.
It was pretty actually. Yeah.
(34:57):
Um, and Torin grad,good to have you here too.
Thank you. And, uh,
I'm Tom Peterson since nobodyelse wants to say my name.
And, uh, by the way, oops.
Your culture's showing smell ya.
(35:22):
Okay, listen, the way toget hold of us is, oops.
Culture show@gmail.com, andour Twitter handle is, oops.
Culture show. Whetherthis is the first episode
or the third episode,
or whatever episodethat you've listened to,
you should really subscribe.
That's the best way to go.
Really, honestly, I knowwhat I'm talking about.
Alright, so just subscribe through iTunes
(35:45):
or through wherever youget your podcasts from.
Subscribe. Thank you.
- Okay, we are rolling.
And you're making banging noises
over there. For some reason,
- I'm keeping myself awake.
- I'm not sure. Wow.
- I'm sticking myself with a poker. Nice
-
Well, here we are in thestudio, and, and, um,
and first of all, we're, we're glad
to be back in the studio.
We're glad to be back recording again.
(00:21):
We've taken a littlehiatus and we are back.
And, um, so, uh, anyway, that's, that's,
I'm Tom Peterson and
- Dean Foster. And
- We have Torin withus today, our producer.
Hello. Hey, we're allto, we're all in studio.
Sorry, I didn't mean to stepon your, uh, hello there, Dean.
You didn't, I didn't. No.Oh, I tried to
(00:43):
Um, all right.
Well, so we've been trying to figure out
what the heck we should talkabout in this, in this podcast.
And, um, and I'm thinking weshould talk about something
that is, um, currently notorious
the symbols of, well,
I'm not talking aboutan instrument in a band.
I'm talking about, uh, yeah.Thank you,
(01:05):
Simple section came to life.
- Actually, we can I geta range shot? We probably,
that we meet.
We'll need that from timeto time.
- Yeah. Okay. I'm all over it.
I played percussion in highschool, so I'm all over it.
Got a snare drum available.I, I do actually. Not
- Far from your Nice, how about a penny
whistle? Very nice
- I don't, I'll find it though.Penny whistle. Remember her?
- I, I think I dated herin the seventh grade.
- In the seventh grade. It'salways the seventh grade.
(01:26):
Interesting. That was a busy year for you.
- Oh, it was a very busy year.
- Yeah. Seventh grade afterthat was all downhill. Uh oh.
Well, um, yeah, no, it's not,
not symbols like you crash inan, in a band or an orchestra,
but, uh, symbols like,uh, symbology, like, um,
what Dan Brown has made a lotof money writing about. Oh,
- Well, you know, this is,there's a cultural piece to this,
(01:49):
- By the way, Mr. Brown,if you would like to, uh,
contact us, we will, wewill put you on the podcast.
Probably. Um,
- A cultural piece to this.
Is there? That's amazing.
The culture has its symbols there,
and there are cultural symbols
for everything all around the world.
It's probably one of themost, uh, unique aspects
of just being human.
(02:09):
The humans have beencreating symbols since,
since, since the dawn. Maybe even
- The dawn.
- Even the dawn might be it.
Even the words that you andI are using right now Yes.
Are symbols. They're justnothing but symbols. There's
- Nothing but symbols.
They lead to pictures,visualizations, uh, actions. Exactly.
- Things like that. Or themeaning of a word, you know, is,
is, is is the symbol of the meaning.
(02:31):
- You get, you have to- The word the symbol
of the, of its of its own. Meaning.
- The symbol means nothing at its own.
People have to give something
to it in order for it tomean something. Exactly.
- You know, this is semi- Well, we
summed that up quickly,didn't we? This is,
- We didn't, can I and everybody?
No, we just opened the door. Oh, we
- Could somebody shut the door.
It's killing the sound in here.
- This is what we, this is semiotics.
(02:51):
The, the whole, excuse me, a whole field
of linguistics, and I think
- You can take something for that.
Now,
- Some people would I pick- Local pharmacist
-
there's an interestingVV very fascinating.
- We'll be the judge of that
- Uh, phenomenon.
I think it's, I think it'scalled semantic satiation.
(03:12):
Semantic. S satiation you
- Say, easy for you to say. And,
- And it proves that theword is merely a vehicle
for symbolizing the conceptthat the meaning stands
for of the word.
Like here's the, here'sthe phenomenon. Okay.
If you say a word over
and over and over and over and over again,
(03:33):
- It loses its meaning. It
- Loses its meaning, and you just hear the
sound of the word and the sound, and
- You can't even rememberhow to spell it. Right.
- And the word becomesvery weird. Right. Right.
That's right. Like if I sayweird, weird, weird, weird,
weird, weird, weird, weird.
This is semantic satiation.
- He does that again. Hithim with the poker. Okay.
My poker, yeah. It, but it
- A weird, it prove, it proves the fact
(03:54):
that the word is just the symbol.
Right. For the meaning behind the word.
- Right. Uhhuh
- So how - Does this, no one'sarguing with you,
- I'm not looking for an argument,
but if you want an argument,
- Stop fighting you and me outside.
He a oh look, is not good.
(04:15):
Or maybe it's really good. We're not sure.
- So what's the cultural piece to this?
- I don't know. That's your game.
- Cultures use symbols all the time.
- Yeah. Okay.
So, so, so give me a, give mean idea of what you might use
a symbol for in a culture.
Why would a culture use a symbol? Well,
- Well, the, that, that,
(04:35):
- Because it seems like anindirect way of communicating.
- That's right. And so where are
the, where's the benefit of that?
- It has to be, I don'tknow, again, to be a benefit.
Think that's his job,isn't it? I think so.
- Okay. Many times whatit does is it allows you
to say something or infer,well imply something.
Mm-Hmm.
Because actually saying itis gonna get you into big
(04:57):
sru, big trouble
-
Thank you for interpreting.
- It's - A small part of theaudience out there,
- So if you can't say itdirectly, Uhhuh
you use a symbol that implies it.
- Hmm. Ah,- Right.
So, you know, one of thethings that comes to mind,
and we've, we've had, we'vediscussed this in other,
(05:17):
other episodes, is hand gestures.
This is the most obvious symbol. Okay.
If you, if you don't saysomething, you, you can't, you,
I'm not responsible for having said it,
but I indicated it with, with a gesture.
Mm-Hmm, sure.
And we're all familiar with the
scatological ge hand gestures. Sure.
- Some are acceptableand some are far less
- Acceptable.
And the fact that the samegesture might have different
meanings in different cultures.
Right. And I think wediscussed this in previous,
(05:40):
I think we have discuss Mm-Hmm.
So that, that's a,that's one of the reasons
to avoid associationof guilt with something
that's going to get you in trouble.
- Right. - Okay. You know,so you say it, it's a code.
Yeah. It's a code.
Now the trouble withcodes is that you have
to understand the code in order to be able
(06:00):
to interpret it the way the sender meant.
Right. So unless I'm alsopart of that information,
if I'm a member of the sametribe, if I'm a citizen
of the same country, if I'mon the same side of an issue
as you are, I probably know the code.
Mm-Hmm.
(06:22):
Yeah. And, and being outsideof it is good for the insiders
'cause they're not gonna getin trouble with the outsiders.
Mm. But being on the, on theoutside is also not so good
for the code, because it means
that not everybody understands it.
- I have no idea what sideI'm on now.
Am I in, am I out? I think I'm outside.
I, I think you right now.Yes. Uh, am I, yeah. Okay.
(06:43):
There's a lot, there's,there's a coated message.
There's a lot
I, I, I hate to say this,
but I think I actuallyfollowed you on that.
Yeah. For those of youlistening, I, if I were you,
I'd rewind and and goback at it again. Uh, just
- And just listen again.
Yeah. And listen again
(07:04):
and listen again until all thewords lose and mean, and then
- Speed it up, up sothat dean sounds like a
chipmunk, if that's even better.
Okay. It'll look like we have a,
a billion listeners, so please go ahead.
- So, so many things arecodes how we dress as a code.
Okay. How we wear our hair is a code hair.
(07:24):
And is remarkable for its coding.
Really for the oh, forthe message that it sends.
The way, the way we choose towear our hair hairstyles, it,
it's coated, uh, to indicate whether
or not you are of acertain group or Oh sure.
Or not of a certain group ofthe colors that we use to dress
(07:46):
with, the colors thatwe use to identify our,
our identity or associationwith a particular group.
Uhhuh
throughout history.
Mm-Hmm.
and tons of different examples of this.
I mean, I think back tothe, uh, what was it?
The War of the Roses in England
and the 14th century, 14th,15th, hundreds, you had the war
of the roses, the white rose.
(08:07):
Right. And the red rose. Right.
And so everybody knows whichsides you're on, you know?
Right. Mm-Hmm.
Symbols are to society as to emotions are
to individuals.
They're shortcuts to
understanding something.
In other words, individualemotions through evolution
(08:30):
gave us the, uh, ability to
feel something in response
to a particular situationwhich allowed us action.
Mm-Hmm.
with. And you can to deal with that,
- It becomes, you can group feel it at
that point, and you'repart of that group. Right.
- And that, well, that'swhere culture comes in. Right.
Okay. Right. But even pre culture, just
as when we were Neanderthals Mm-Hmm.
(08:50):
- Were a Neanderthal. Go ahead.
- I have, I have 6% Neanderthal.
- I, you, we you had to tell us that,
or we knew that. We know
- Pretty much.
And I think, I think I thinkthe average is like four,
- 4%.
Is that right? Uh, well,
I wondered why you were always walking
around picking up berries
and things like thatand eating them. Don't
- Short sell the Neanderthals.
(09:12):
- Well, I'm, I did I I actuallyshortell them some of my,
uh, some of my stock.
Yeah, you sold, it was, it was a
- Big deal. You sold it the wrong
- Time.
They're pretty stupid. You know,
they don't know the stock
exchange. Yeah, that's probably fine.
- Then it went up, right,
-
That's right. It went upimmediately.
Smart move on my part.Yeah. Well done. Oh, well.
- Well, so emotions are, are shortcuts
to giving us information as to what
(09:32):
to do in a particular situation.
Mm-Hmm.
try to figure out, oh,what's the best thing for me
to do given this situation?
Mm-Hmm.
Now sometimes it, we act on our emotions
and it doesn't solve the problem.
It makes the problem worse.We is why we've developed
intelligence subsequent
(09:53):
to the evolutionarydevelopment of emotion.
Mm-Hmm.
- Yeah. Yeah.- They are shortcuts to all of us
inside the tribe,identifying with the tribe
and everybody outsidethe tribe saying, whoops,
they're on the inside andI'm on the outside, or Right.
They're part of them andnot part of me. Yeah.
(10:13):
- So if, let me see if Ican take this in a direction
that goes to if, if it's a,if it's a very visible one,
not ones that you're tryingto do as a subterfuge
of some kind to getaway with something or,
or to overthrow somethingor anything like that, but,
but a very obvious form of symbolism,
(10:36):
then we could look atnational flags. Yeah,
- Exactly.
That. There's a perfect exampleof a s of symbols. Right.
Okay. Yeah. And,
and the, you, let's take a look at the
current situation with Ukraine.
Okay. Right. The colors ofthe Ukrainian flag. Yellow and
- Blue, I- Think blue.
Yes. Right. It flew outta my mind
for a second. I wasthinking of the fact that
(10:56):
- Should be a neanderthal partof his in the mind.
- Took over, we had just gonethrough, it went berries.
We, we just gone through,through Easter and Passover
and I, I went to a SAPassover Seder, um, last week.
And they had the egg, which is a symbol,
a very ancient symbol on the,of the, on the Passover plate.
Uhhuh
(11:19):
Um, and, but the host
of the Seder died the Easteregg, the Ukrainian colors.
Mm. Ah, because it's a,
because it is a, a holidayof festival of freedom. Mm.
- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.- Alright.
So those colors, um, the blue is the sky,
it's the symbol for the sky.
And the yellow is thesymbol of the sunflower. Oh.
Which grows all overthe U Ukraine. Oh, okay.
(11:41):
And, um, these two forces,these two natural forces
create what is fundamentally,I think, part of the reason
for the current situation.
Because the Ukraine hasalways been the breadbasket
of Russia, if not theworld, Uhhuh
So it's been the farmland,not only sunflowers,
(12:02):
but the, but wheat and allsorts of things would be grown
and produced in Ukraine.
Mm-Hmm.
because it's so far southgeographically than Russia
so much further south than Russia.
Geographically, if you comparethe production in the Ukraine
of food with the productionof, of food in Russia
(12:23):
to the north, it, it, it,
it vastly overwhelms the Russian numbers.
Russians have been basicallysurviving on Ukrainian food,
on Ukrainian sunflowers,on Ukrainian wheat.
Yeah. And so the colorsthat are used in the symbols
of Ukraine represent this.
Hmm. And if you understandthe power of these symbols,
(12:44):
you know, Ukrainians under,
for them the sunflower isincredibly powerful symbol.
Mm-Hmm.
you look at the symbols in Russia, uh,
a powerful symbol in Russiathat I think is iconic
to understanding Russianculture is the matrika doll.
The doll within the doll. Withinthe doll. Within the doll.
(13:05):
Right. Right. Nesting doll.The nesting doll. Mm-Hmm.
why is this iconicallysymbolic of Russian culture?
Because I think one of theessentials things you need
to understand aboutRussian culture I is, is
that there's always thissuperficial outer shell,
and it hides an inner shell,which hides an even fruit,
(13:28):
a deeper inner shell,which hide, which hides an,
and the, the, the baby
inside the deepest partis very, very fragile.
Mm-Hmm. And very, very weak. Mm-Hmm.
And needs to be protected Mm-Hmm.
By these levels, layers and layers
and layers that keep going tothe out, out and out and out.
(13:52):
Sure. So the blustery overthe top, super emotional,
um, bombastic, rhetorical outside.
- Yeah.- The threatening outside the,
the, the, the use of the weapons, the,
the constant threats. Mm-Hmm.
-
(14:14):
an exterior cover
- Hmm.
To protect that inner,inner creature body. That's
- Whatever, that's what'sdriving it. Yeah. Yeah.
- Right.- Huh.
- You, we look at Russia.Russia is a very large country.
There's gotta be, as there isin other large countries in
(14:36):
the United States, China, others,
there's gonna be differences across there.
Moscow is a, is is a far more western, uh,
city than much of the rest of the country,
- Geographically. It is, yes.
- Yeah. And, um, so is it d do and,
and I, I don't know, maybeit's not easy to know this
because it is still Russiaand it's somewhat secretive,
(14:59):
but across the country, isthere a reason to believe
that there's a, is there adisconnect from the, the forces
that are running things nowand making these decisions?
Is there a, is there, uh, that is,
and is it symbolizedin any way in, in that,
or is that just another, um,is that just another enigma
of Russia that we reallydon't know much about?
(15:21):
- Well, you know, vast,vast lands within Russia are
super underpopulated.
Mm-Hmm. And we're looking at
tundra, we're looking at Mm-Hmm.
You know, um, a a a lotof just vast land area,
but not too many people.
Right. And then there are other areas
where there's lots and lots of people.
Right. Yes. Right. Okay.
Um, I think your pointis well taken, Tom, you,
(15:43):
you do have Moscow, um, trying very hard
to keep this vast empire within an empire.
Mm-Hmm.
Uh, even within Russiaas a nation state today,
it's Ru Moscow still hasdifficulty controlling
every part of that landmass.
(16:05):
And the, the, the fear always is that
somebody somewhere is gonnabreak away from our control.
Mm-Hmm.
gotta maintain a lot of control.
And therefore it's, it's anatural crucible for autocracy.
Mm-Hmm.
ever in the history of Russiahave there been any moments
(16:30):
of democracy except veryshort-lived sparks here and there.
Hmm. Just before, during, andjust after the revolution.
Mm-Hmm. And the Civil War.Mm-Hmm.
But, but it's inconsequential really,
because they went straightfrom feudalism and cism Mm-Hmm.
Right. To basically gangsterism,
(16:50):
which is what we have today.
Right? Mm-Hmm.
whatsoever for, for any kind,
for holding anything togetherother than OO other than
steely autocracy. Mm-Hmm.
- Right.- So, to your point Y yes.
Moscow is fearful that it willal that it will lose control
of what's going on within its realms.
(17:12):
Mm-Hmm.
as proof the failure ofthe Soviets, the collapse
of the Soviets as proofthat without this kind
of steely autocracy, they arein fact going to collapse.
Hmm. And, and,
and the evidence of that for them is
that the West is out therecircling around, ready
(17:33):
to take advantage of anysituation where they can, uh,
they can undermine the authority
of the Russians in that re in the region.
Mm-Hmm.
of the people in the Ukraine voted, voted
to be part of the west.Right? Mm-Hmm.
- Right, - Right. So Russiacan simply not allow that.
Mm-Hmm.
(17:53):
of Czars Russia was the two-headed eagle.
And still, it's still on the Russian,
it's still the Russian,uh, state seal, I think.
Hmm. Okay. So the eagle isalways looking east to make sure
that everybody there isunder the control of Moscow.
Yeah. And also west Yeah.
(18:14):
To make sure that the westdoesn't do anything to, to,
to stop us from maintainingthese, the hard grip
that we need to have over thelands, over which we should
over the lands, over whichin which there are Russians.
- Sure. Alright. So
- Symbols, A double-headed eagle. Right.
- Double-headed eagle.There we go. Yeah. Which co
- Code of arms of Russia- Coat of arms of Russia.
(18:36):
- Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Theproducer finally did something.
You're welcome. That's good. But
- It's interesting now thatthe, the symbol, this idea
of symbols during this timeof war with Ukraine Mm-Hmm.
becoming coded languagefor which side you are on.
- Hmm. Right. So whatare some of those symbols
(18:57):
that we're seeing that are, um,
showing us both sides, I guess?
- Well, you know, I thinkabout both sides, I think.
Yeah. The, the Russian Z
- Yeah. Yeah. I've seen
- That.
Where does that come from? I don't under,
I've never seen the etymology of
- It.
I don't know. I'm not,I'm not sure. I mean,
I can take a look, but I remember
hearing it was sort of unknown.
- Right. It's not like aWorld War Z reference. Is it?
It could be
it could be a theory
(19:18):
- I'll take a look. Ithink it is not entirely
- Sure. Okay.
- So that's being used tosymbolize support for the war.
- Right, right, right.
- But the need for coded symbol symbolism,
if you are against the war,particularly in Russia Right.
Is absolutely powerful.
So I've been hearing about different codes
(19:40):
that have developed toindicate by Russians
who do not support the war,that they are not, uh, you know,
uh, of supporting the,the supporting Moscow
or Putin I should say, butthey're against the war.
Um, Russians are very proud
of the contributions they'vemade to, to the world.
And Russian culture hasbeen, um, in many aspects
(20:05):
of Russian cultural literature,the arts particularly,
and I think of ballet, becomesymbols of Russian, uh,
contributions to the world.
Sure. They're very proud of the ballet.
- Sure. Yeah. They should
- Be Tchaikovsky's Great ballet.
Mm-Hmm. Swan Lake. Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm.
and has been used historically in Russia,
- But I remember hearing that- Yeah.
In, in many different ways.
(20:27):
Politically, it becameused as a symbol, as a tool
for the fact that the government,
whenever one of theleaders died, and the, and,
and the decision makersin Moscow didn't know
who the next leader was gonna be.
Right. They played SwanLake on state media.
And so every time you heardSwan Lake being played, it meant
(20:49):
that government catastrophe has happened.
and we're awaiting the,the next, the next news as
to who's gonna be running the country.
Ah. And so the ballet
and the symbol of theballet dancer has been used
by those against the war as a statement
(21:11):
that the government is in trouble.
Okay. And we're, and we'regoing to have to change
that government, or thatgovernment needs to change.
Ah, okay. Or will change.
- So is it being used now? I
- Believe so.
I think the pro protestorshave been doing that. Okay.
Now, because of the, uh,very punitive new laws
that have come down whereyou, you're not supposed
(21:33):
to protest the war.
Right. In Russia. Right.
Um, those who are protestingthe war are getting rounded
up and, and jailed.
Mm-Hmm.
I think I was reading aboutprotestors who instead
of showing up, um, with protest signs,
no war, they were showingup with signs that said no,
(21:53):
first letter of the Russian word for war.
And then the remaining lettersindicated by an asterisk.
- Oh.- Uh, okay.
- It, the remaining relic letters. Yeah.
- Right. Okay. I heardthis. Yeah. On a podcast.
There was a podcast from NPR,
rough translation. That was, that's
- Right.
That's right. Yeah. Yeah.Well, of course, you know, the,
the Russian securityforces are looking, so,
(22:16):
so this is an education for them.
Mm-Hmm. And then they go, they have
to reinterpret whateverthe code is as to whether
or not it's worthy of an arrest.
So they're learningwhatever the new code is.
And the trick is, ofcourse, to try to learn
that code faster than anybody else does.
Right. And before it becomes,
before it becomes, thenyou move on, then you,
(22:37):
you force them to move on.
But anyway, and everyculture's got its symbols.
I mean, torn, you werein Hong Kong Yeah. Um,
- A few years ago. A
- Few years ago.
During the, during the,the, the, the strikes, the
- Protests, yeah.
The protest that werehappening there. Yeah.
When you were talkingabout colors as symbols,
I was remembering myfriend who I was visiting
who would live there for manyyears, was saying how, um, red
as symbolized pro Beijing,which makes sense.
(22:59):
Um, yellow symbolized pro, um, democracy
and blue represent pro-police.
So it was similar to pro-Chinawith the authorities.
- And didn't the protestsinitially start, um,
with the symbol of the umbrella?
- Yes. Right. And yeah,
it was the umbrella movement. Mm-Hmm.
-
umbrella chosen as this?
I don't remember as thissymbol
(23:19):
- But I could look it up.- Please do
- I'll
And so those are verypowerful symbols. Symbols.
And like you're talking about folks,
when they saw the certaincolors, and it would be
outside different restaurantsand be, and people's clothes,
and they knew, okay, these are folks
that I can relate to. And,
- But, but let me justjump in for a second.
Or I'm wondering, I'm, I'm wondering if
(23:40):
with the symbols like that,then depending on where the,
where we, where it goes, where everybody,
where everything goes, what, what
- Happens?
You mean how this conflictworks out with Ukraine,
- This conflict or any conflictover in the past, ah, with,
depending on where it ends up.
And, and of course that'san ongoing conflict
with Hong Kong also,
and where, so where it, whereit ends up, those symbols
(24:03):
can at some point become iconic
and become part of theculture in some ways, right?
- Yes, absolutely. And then they become
institutionalized as Yeah.
Usually the victor's symbols.
- Exactly. That's what I'm saying. Yeah.
That, that they would havethose as, as something that,
and I'm wondering if it's afailure if those symbols just go
by the wayside and, and
(24:25):
or get put over here in the, in the file
that says symbols not tobe used in the near future.
- Absolutely. These usuallybecome taboo. Yeah. Or
- Get outlawed overnight.
The swastika. Yeah. Ly outlawed.
- The swastika wasnothing more than just a,
an ancient Hindu symbol. Right,
- Right, right.
It's been used before, of course.
- Sure. And then it becamecorrupted by the Nazis.
(24:45):
By the Nazis. Right. And then it became
verboten. I mean, you can't do
- It. No, you can't.
- Absolutely not. So thesymbol itself has no meaning
whatsoever, but it's the meaning
that the symbol represents what
- You apply to it. Precisely.
- Yes. And that's what culture does.
Culture says, I'm gonna givethis symbol a meaning. Yes.
And that's where it suddenlybecomes very, very powerful.
(25:05):
- Sure. - So, I remember now,my friend did tell me this,
so umbrellas were popular in the protest
because they could be used to protect,
people could protectthemselves against tear
gas being fired by the police.
- Ah.- They served a purpose,
and then they can assemble from that.
Right. Very interesting. Um,the z by the way, in Russia,
so it, there are theoriesthat's not clear,
but there were Zs put onthe Russian military tanks
(25:26):
to avoid friendly fire.
And so it's believed that it just came.
And then it just really, the Z
- Stood out.
So the Z was saying justit's us, not them. Mm-Hmm.
- They use this R
- So again, purpose, I dunno,
but it seemed to serve a purpose.
And so then it justbecame a symbol for Yeah,
- That's a good question.
I I it may have meant somethingelse also within all of that
(25:47):
- Could Yeah.
That it seems to be unclear. Yeah.
- Yeah. We don't know atthis stage. Yeah. Huh. Well,
- Why are we talkingabout symbols and culture?
- Why,- Because, oops,
- Your culture's showing.
Yeah. We decided to wait tillthe end to do it this time.
(26:08):
You know what,
- Oops.
Something else is showing too. Yeah.
- Forget, there certainly is a lot a lot's
showing something sticking outta here.
We just sue into theconversation. Oh, man.
- Well, well, we areof a certain generation
and we are of at least,at least I out Well speak
(26:29):
- For yourself of Yeah,- Exactly.
And, you know, what were thecultural symbols in our gen?
Because in my generation, Ican vividly remember the, the,
the, the, the confusion
and the, um, intensity of the sixties.
- Well, there's onemajor one that was there
- And there, and thatwas driven by symbols.
- Yeah. There was a lot. But there was one
that was the predominant one.
(26:50):
There was one Which one wasthe peace sign? The peace sign.
Yeah. And that, I mean, thatwas the one that was, that was,
I think was the dominant one. And, and
- The peace sign, by the way was what?
Because it's not universal.
- What do you mean with what in
- The us?
What was the peace sign?
- Oh,- Was it a hand gesture? Was it a
- No?
Well, yeah, it was a hand gesture.
And it was a, it wasa drawn circle with a,
(27:14):
um, a
- A disarmament si symbol.
- Yeah. But it's a lot of discussion.
Again, you go back to, we'retalking about the z there's a
lot of discussion on where that, where
that sign inside the circle.
Mm-Hmm.
It's the foot of a dove.
Um, some people, oh, there's,
there's a few different things.
It really doesn't matter. All it matters
(27:34):
is what you were talking about before.
What it means now. Does it meanthat's a symbol? Yes. Yeah.
What does it mean?Because a lot of people,
when we were growing up,there was a lot of people
that sign meant, uh,things they did not like.
Sure. They were, they wereafraid of Mm-Hmm.
And that they did not like them.
And then you can look back atit in kind of the quaint way
of looking at the sixtiesand the early seventies
(27:54):
and think it's a, isn't that cool?
But it really, honestly,at that time, it was
so far from just being cool.
Sure. It meant a lot. And itmeant a lot on both sides.
Sure. Um, and it was a lot ofbroad, a lot of pushback on
that and a lot of dislike Sure.
About the peace sign as well.
I and the, and the hand figure of the,
of the right V two fingersup towards other people.
(28:16):
Towards, towards you. Yes.
- It has to be, it has to be palm out
- Saying two. Yes.
- Palm in is a whole, well, in- England that
- Was a problem- In Britain.
Yes. In, in the United States,it would, nobody cared.
But in, in here it was. But itwas that, anyway, two beers.
That is the peace sign. It's,it's the, uh, it's Right.
But it should be palm out. It'slike showing the number two
like that with your palmtoward whoever Churchill's
- Showing V for victory.
(28:38):
Right? Yes. It was from Churchill.
- Yes. 'cause if he did itthe other way, it was, uh,
which he probably did to Hitler also.
that means you haven't gonethrough all of our podcasts back
to a prior episode.
You've gotta go back to the beginning
- With the hand- Gestures and,
and check out the hand gestures.
Here's a hint that has nothing to do
with the Japanese toilet.
(28:59):
Okay? Mm-Hmm. There you go.
-
- But as far as we know, asfar as we know,
- Well, I remember as going through, um,
hearing it back then in the sixties.
Yeah. Um, the peace sign,the disarmament sign
that I think you were referring to,
which looks like the, the dove's foot.
(29:20):
- Yes. The, the mm-Hmm.
The dove's foot pointing
down, I guess you could say. Mm-Hmm.
- Yeah. That was, I I thinkoriginally used in Britain back
in the fifties, even before the sixties.
Yeah. Uh, during the beginningsof the disarmament movement,
Uhhuh
of the, uh, leaders of that
- Movement.
Disarmament, you're talkinglike missiles and things like
- That. Yes. Nuclear
- Disarm started.
Yeah. So it started to build up after,
(29:41):
after World War ii, right? Mm-Hmm.
-
the ver the vertical sign wasthe missile, the vertical.
Right. Okay. And then, uh,
it was basically an an an Anto D mm-Hmm.
- Okay. And - Okay. Yeah. Sothat, that's what, anyway,
(30:01):
- That's, that's a possibility
to what's an, an D What is that?
- Anto d you know, inEurope, the road signs
where you can't enter, it's a circle.
Do not enter, do not enter diagonal slash
Gotcha. Do not enter, except it
- Doesn't go all the way across. And I
- Use the French version.
- Wow. What a show off.
You know what part problem,you know, what we're, we,
(30:23):
we're gonna have to talkmore about this. Can
- We go here?
- No, no, no, no, no.
that a lot in France. That's
- French for No, that's- Right.
Is that what that was? Yeah.
love it when he spit French.
I know. I love it. That'sgreat. You know,
But look, I clearly,
there's another episodein this because, well,
(30:44):
- You know, we've just beendiscussing symbols and,
and I guess because of currentevents, Ukraine Yeah, yeah.
We, we started discussing,discussing symbols of protest.
Right. Uhhuh. But there's symbols of
so many things. Right? Well,
- Sure.
Right. Well, and, and,
and I mean, there's lots ofdifferent movements, which,
which cross borders and, and are,
and are approach to many different ways,
(31:05):
which is another area wecan get into at some point,
because you've got, uh,we can talk about the,
what's happened in the UnitedStates as far as things like,
uh, different movements, uh,whether it has to do with race,
or it has to do with gender,
or it has to do with, uh, uh, uh, choice
or any of those types things.
Sure. Yep. And, and any of those things.
And they're gonna havesymbols with them, which,
(31:26):
which they will find very powerful.
And again, others willfind disturbing. Right.
For what, whatever race, depending on what
- I'm, I'm gonna, I'mgonna go way out there.
- Oh, here he goes and- Say that everything, whoa.
Everything we do, every wordwe say, every gesture we make,
every article of clothingthat we put on, every color
that we choose, every, everypiece of food that passes
(31:47):
through our lips, everything we do,
every decision we makein every given movement
has all been pre-programmedin our, through our culture.
Is there free will? Yes.
And we can talk about the role
of free will in culture, but you're
- Blowing my mind
But,
- But that's how much we are coded
(32:07):
and to some degree,controlled by our culture.
Mm-Hmm. Yeah. So,
- Oh, I've got a story about that.
- Okay. Coding as a symbol,
not the winter coating. Yes. But coding
- Or coding on a computer.
-
- Now, which that one's and zeroes
- From your generation, that's
(32:27):
what you would think. Right. I'm
- Millennial, so that's- Okay.
So all coding in general, yes.
All of human activity is a code.
I'm sending you signals about
so many things just sittinghere opposite you talking about
- This.
And I'm a little disturbed
-
- Say very disturbed, but, um, yeah, sure.
(32:50):
Okay. Well, you can go out on
that limb right there,and you can say that.
And I'm gonna go home and I'm going
to pull the sheets over my head
and I'm never going to move again.
- And that's a code forsomething. Oh, it is. Damn. Yeah.
- Oh, got me again,
- Buy that.
- I'll buy it. He pulled me back
- In-
- And what you do underthose sheets is a code.
- All right. Now we're moving out.
(33:11):
Definitely don't hear about That's, it's
time to wrap it out. I
- Meant how you sleep.
- Oh, of course. Of course you do. Sure.
Uhhuh
for ruining it for everyone. I
- Mean, what directionare you facing? That's,
- That's according to, and Wow.
Oh my goodness. Well, you know,
- I'm in the group of notwanting to hear more about that.
- No. People are phoning inright now, actually. Insane.
(33:32):
No, we are taking calls. We're not,
we're not even broadcasting live.
Oh. So, okay. But people are
knowing this is happening. I to get
- Our number, but if you'd like to comment
- Yes.
If you, we, we do have ways you can get
- All us just yell,yelling at your phone or
whatever you're using to listen to
- This.
Just scream us We'll, your window, we'll
- Hear in.
And if you wanna, if you wanna find out
what direction Tom sleeps in
- I've actually, I've put acamera up in my room. Oh, no.
(33:55):
And, um, I'm going online now, dear.
So you'll be able to see me dear, dear.
And, uh, now that aloneshould be a symbol of just
absolute dread and fear right
- There.
Yeah. We need coating to
make sure that never gets out there,
- Right?
Yes. In a coat, maybe. Yeah.
- Lots of coating,- Lots of coats.
Just pile 'em up on top of me, please.
We beg you when All right.
Look at, we're gonna wrap this one up and,
(34:15):
but we'll revisit symbols
and, uh, maybe makesure at some point Yeah.
Maybe the whole drum kit atsome point.
Sorry, I forgot. Thank,yeah, thanks a lot.
They're taking a break.He got one job. Gosh.
Actually was taking one freaking
job. They should really stop
- Smoking. It's
- Not good for, I thoughthe, I thought he was asleep
facing the other direction.
- Put Mylas away and- Oh my gosh.
(34:35):
Well, Dean Foster, it'sgreat to be back in studio
with you again and, uh, terrific.
Terrific. And yeah, thank Well, terrific.
You're saying that aboutyourself or, uh, yes.
- And, and it's nice tohave you here too. Oh,
- Great.
Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot.
There's a symbol on that, butwe'll leave it alone for now.
That was code and, um,
It wasn't coded at all.It was pretty blatant.
It was pretty actually. Yeah.
(34:57):
Um,
Thank you. And, uh,
I'm Tom Peterson since nobodyelse wants to say my name.
And, uh, by the way, oops.
Your culture's showing smell ya.
(35:22):
Okay, listen, the way toget hold of us is, oops.
Culture show@gmail.com, andour Twitter handle is, oops.
Culture show. Whetherthis is the first episode
or the third episode,
or whatever episodethat you've listened to,
you should really subscribe.
That's the best way to go.
Really, honestly, I knowwhat I'm talking about.
Alright, so just subscribe through iTunes
(35:45):
or through wherever youget your podcasts from.
Subscribe. Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
Introducing… Aubrey O’Day Diddy’s former protege, television personality, platinum selling music artist, Danity Kane alum Aubrey O’Day joins veteran journalists Amy Robach and TJ Holmes to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation. Join them throughout the trial as they discuss, debate, and dissect every detail, every aspect of the proceedings. Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise, as only she is qualified to do given her first-hand knowledge. From her days on Making the Band, as she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be the opposite of the glitz and glamour. Listen throughout every minute of the trial, for this exclusive coverage. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial, an iHeartRadio podcast.
Betrayal: Season 4
Karoline Borega married a man of honor – a respected Colorado Springs Police officer. She knew there would be sacrifices to accommodate her husband’s career. But she had no idea that he was using his badge to fool everyone. This season, we expose a man who swore two sacred oaths—one to his badge, one to his bride—and broke them both. We follow Karoline as she questions everything she thought she knew about her partner of over 20 years. And make sure to check out Seasons 1-3 of Betrayal, along with Betrayal Weekly Season 1.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.