June 18, 2019 • 33 mins
All parents hear some challenging or confusing questions from their kids at some point. For LGBTQ+ parents and caregivers, the questions can be a bit trickier. How do some parents navigate answering potentially triggering questions with honesty, care, and a dash of humor? Two parents and a queerspawn discuss the funny, random, and probing things kids in LGBTQ+ families say.
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Episode Transcript
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Emily (00:03):
I am an adult queerspawn who was made by my lesbian mom
(00:25):
and a sperm donor.
Growing up I knew our family wasdifferent and that the way that
I was conceived was not the sameas my friends.
I loved my family and I knew thescientific basis about how
babies were made, but there wasa lot left out by my parents.
So, as kids do, I filled in thegaps and just made up stuff in
(00:47):
my head.
And that is to say, only when Iwasn't boldly explaining what a
sperm donor was to my newfriends at age seven, much to
the shock of their parents.
I remember the stories that Imade up, like how I pretended my
donor was trying to send mesecret messages.
I know many other queerspawnhave similar stories.
(01:10):
I wanted to talk about thisexperience with some parents who
know the other side of toughquestions or funny creativity
from queerspawn, from kids withLGBTQ parents.
With me are Allan and Sam.
Allan Barsky lives in southFlorida with his husband Greg,
daughter Adelle, and their dogTippy.
(01:31):
Dr Barsky teaches conflictresolution, social work
practice, and professionalethics courses at Florida
Atlantic University.
The family enjoys participatingin theater, music, travel,
silliness, and social action.
Sam Skye is an art therapist andlicensed professional counselor,
living with his partner and twochildren in Portland, Oregon.
(01:52):
Sam works in private practicewith LGBTQ+ people of all ages
specializing in supportingindividuals through gender
exploration and transition.
Sam is currently working on achildren's book for youth
considering puberty blockers andplanning a summer arts camp for
gender diverse kids inelementary school.
So welcome Allan and Sam.
(02:13):
I'm going to start by asking thequestion that I ask everybody as
we get started.Who is in yourfamily and how was your family
formed?
Allan (02:26):
Sure.
In our household it is myself,my husband Greg, my daughter
Adele, and our dog Tippy.
Often when strangers ask usquestions like, where did you
get her, talking about ourdaughter, we will tell them that
we found her in the bakery aisleat Publix and the conversation
(02:47):
goes from that.
So sometimes people will askintrusive questions out of the
blue and sometimes we'll justkinda joke around.
And when we get to know peoplewe will explain that our
daughter was born throughsurrogacy.
We had a surrogate to give birthto our daughter and she's a
wonderful woman who we stillhave a relationship with.
Our family sees her on anongoing basis.
We also have an anonymous eggdonor who we have never met.
Sam (03:19):
My family consists of myself, my wife, Megan, and our
two kids, Jude and Sage.
Sage is eight years old and usesthey/them pronouns and Jude is
almost two.
I was Sage's natal parent, so Iwas pregnant with Sage, and Sage
calls me Papa.
Sage was conceived with theirother dad who I was married to
(03:45):
at the time.
His name is Jay.
We divorced when Sage was stillan infant and Megan and I met
when Sage was around three yearsold.
We've been together for sixyears and we've been married for
(04:05):
three.
Megan is Jude's natal parent andwe conceived Jude through ICI at
home with help of my brother,who was our donor.
Emily (04:18):
Okay.
And what are some of yourfavorite things to do as a
family?
Sam (04:22):
Our family loves to go on adventures together.
We travel a lot.
Last year we spent a monthtraveling through Germany.
When we're not doing that biggeradventure stuff, we just like to
have play dates and there areconstantly kids in our house
just having fun or watchingmovies.
Emily (04:43):
Great.
And Allan what are some of yourfavorite things to do with the
family?
Allan (04:47):
We live in south Florida, so going to the beach and
swimming sometimes in out pool,and board games.
We also enjoy travel and beingactive in our communities.
Emily (05:02):
Great.
So this episode I really wantedto talk about two sides of some
of the really interesting thingsthat kids say.
What is in their brain, whatthey're going through, what
they're thinking about.
We know that kids say somepretty hilarious things.
(05:22):
Look on Twitter or Facebook andyou'll find parents sharing
great things, articles orlisticles about it.
Is there anything that sticksout in your mind of some of
those like real gems ofparticularly funny things your
kiddos have said that surprisedyou?
Allan (05:44):
Our daughter, Adele, has come home from school a few
times and told us that she hadto explain sex education to kids
as early as pre-k andkindergarten.
She said"kids were askingquestions but they didn't even
understand what sperm was."
Emily (06:02):
Yep! Has she ever told you like what she's telling
them?
Is she getting it right?
Is she accurate?
Allan (06:11):
Yeah, well she's fifteen now so hopefully it's accurate!
But even back then we werealways very open about
biological connections and howshe was born so all of that just
came very naturally to her.
What was interesting was fromwhat was normal and natural to
(06:35):
her, she was surprised thatfriends didn't understand this
or that.
A lot of times kids will say,'yeah, but who's your mom' and
she explains that she has twodads.
That can get tiresome whenyou're a young person, answering
the same question over and over.
Especially when the peopleasking don't really believe what
you're saying.
Emily (06:57):
Totally.
And Sam do any particularlyinteresting or funny stuff from
your kiddos come to mind?
Sam (07:04):
When Sage was pretty young, when I transitioned, they were
probably three or so, justbarely old enough for us to
explain it to them, it had to bevery simplistic.
We were talking about takinghormones for medical transition,
(07:25):
what testosterone does, thatsort of thing.
They started calling it beardmedicine, which I thought was
very cute label for whattestosterone is and still to
this day they refer to it asbeard medicine.
Recently we were all out to eatas a family.
There was this little boysitting next to us with his dad,
(07:46):
and he looked over, he was maybefive or so, he looked over at
Sage and in this mean tone said'do you have a dad?
Because it doesn't look like youdo.' We just didn't have any
idea what to say because he wasa little kid and he was with his
parent and his parent lookedmortified.
Anyway, so we just went back toeating and kind of laughed
(08:07):
because A) it's hilariousbecause Sage actually has two
dads.
And B) Sage was just so sweet.
They came over and looked at me,gave me a hug and held my
shoulders, They were like,'Iknow you're my dad.
You're a manly man.' Which Ijust thought was very sweet.
Not normally something I woulduse as a label for myself in any
(08:27):
way, but just a really sweetmoment.
Emily (08:31):
Yeah.
And I have to say, I really dothink that kids with LGBTQ+
parents or caregivers, can beespecially surprising or
creative or funny because, asyou've both mentioned, we're
given age appropriateinformation about our families,
(08:52):
how we came to be in a familyand how other people might
perceive our family.
But a lot of our peers are notgiven even that age appropriate
information.
So kids fill in the gaps.
I love that shock sometimes thatother kids can experience.
I mean I have no memory of thisbut my best friend's mom tells
(09:14):
the story now of when I had justI moved to a new town, she was
meeting me as her daughter's newfriend for the first time and
was driving us.
She tuned out a little bit andwhen she tuned back in, she
says, I was in the back seatexplaining what a sperm donor
was to her daughter at ageseven.
She was like, what is happening,although she played it cool.
To me that was what I did.
(09:37):
I had to talk about that all thetime.
Why wouldn't I talk about havinga sperm donor?
That is my every day.
I actually put a call out onsocial media to ask for other
stories from folks.
So I just want to share a few ofthem, and then we can talk about
them a little bit.
The first one is:"We've alwaysbeen very open about how babies
(10:07):
are made in our house.
When I was preparing to be asurrogate, we were also open
with our kids about thatprocess.
We were hanging out with theintended parents and our son who
was almost five at this pointturns to the dad and very
seriously asks,'have you alreadytaken the sperm of your body to
(10:29):
put it in my mom?
And the intended dad's face gotbright red.
Then he backed away slowly."Which is a story I just love.
Like sometimes we know thescience but we don't know all of
the science or exactly how itworks.
Somebody else shared that,"whenmy kiddo made his first friend
(10:52):
at Family Week in Provincetown,he said,'you have two dads?
I don't even have one dad!"Family Week in Provincetown is
the largest gathering of LGBTQfamilies in the world.
So I just love that.
Have you noticed your kidsfilling in some of those gaps in
(11:16):
knowledge or have you heard themtalking biology that they kind
of know but don't all the wayknow?
Sam (11:25):
Yeah, I can definitely speak to that.
With our second kid, Jude, we'vebeen really open about that
whole process.
In my professional work, I'veseen that the research suggests
that transparency is really thebest approach.
(11:47):
A developmentally appropriatetransparency, right?
So we've been talking about thata lot, but also when you're that
age, like five, six, even nowwith an understanding the
science behind it, it'scomplicated.
Jude came to be because mybrother was the donor and my
brother is gay, which issomething that Sage knows,
(12:08):
although I think they still kindof totally don't fully
understand the concepts ofsexual identity, which is
totally fair when you're eight.
So we were talking about it andjust trying to understand
Steven's role as a donor.
And they described Steven asJude's straight uncle, which I
think is their way of trying toexplain like the reproduction
science.
(12:31):
It was just such an interestingterm to apply.
So that was kind of an exampleof that for me.
Emily (12:37):
Allan, do you know of your daughter filling in any of
those gaps in information there?
Allan (12:48):
Yeah, I knew that sometimes she's just got a good
sense of humor about it.
She was in a science class and ateacher pulled out a Petri dish
and she goes,'oh my mom'.
We sometimes get phone callsfrom well-meaning parents, who
they say, I'm not sure how I'msupposed to handle this, I'm
(13:10):
getting certain questions.
And Family Equality had somematerials that we gave to
teachers and other parents andthere are other books and
videos, so that was reallyhelpful.
So I think it's, it's actually agood thing you don't want to
always put on your kids.
You are in charge of informingother families about how LGBT
families can be constructed.
(13:31):
But it is a role that our kidsare taking.
Emily (13:34):
Absolutely.
Especially with our peers.
You know, in those conversationswhen adults aren't always
present, it's happening.
It is also true that kids canask questions or say things that
can feel surprising or shockingor sometimes hurtful to parents,
without the kids intending tonecessarily be hurtful.
(13:56):
I as I grew older, I think Istill felt pretty comfortable
asking some of those questions.
And part of that was definitelykudos to my parents for telling
me if I wanted to talk about mydonor, it's okay.
They were open to it.
But that's hard to do sometimesand it can be really hard for
some folks.
Yeah.
Does that seem true to you aswell?
Allan (14:20):
So I think when Adele was younger, she knew that she had
the surrogate mom who gave birthto her.
And that was kind of sufficientand more recently she's thinking
more and understanding moreabout her biological mother.
She's wanting to get in touchwith her.
And so, we had a writtenagreement through the fertility
(14:41):
clinic.
So we actually have tried topursue that but it does get a
little bit more challenging toask some more questions as she
gets older.
But it really fits their stageof development, she wants to
know where she's coming from.
I can really understand that.
So I want to be supportive ofthat and help her through it.
(15:03):
But at the same time you're notable to get in contact with the
biological mom.
Sam (15:13):
Yeah.
Allan, what you're saying reallyresonates with me in terms of
using understanding ofdevelopment to help separate
yourself from any questions thatcould feel potentially hurtful.
Or we might translate them inour adults minds and feel like
they are almost judgmental orsomehow against our family
(15:34):
structure.
For me, using that lens ofsaying, well this is just my
kid's process and how theybecome the full-grown version of
themselves and develop their ownstories and narratives about
their life.
So it empowers me to pushthrough anything that might kind
of touch on more sensitivesubjects for me.
(15:55):
As an example, because Sage wasso young, they are kind of
forgetting some of the originaldetails of my life before I
transitioned.
And so they recently asked whatmy old name was before I changed
it.
And it really bothered me.
I mean, I want so badly to livethis fantasy that my name and my
(16:17):
identity were always mine and toput the past away because
fundamentally things like sayingmy old name makes me feel
dysphoric.
But as a parent, I really feltlike it was important to be
honest.
This is Sage's history too.
And I think it's important forthem to be able to integrate and
organize their memories.
All of us are constantlywriting, rewriting, and
(16:39):
reprocessing our life stories.
So I feel like it's my duty tosupport my children in that
work.
And practically speaking, Sageis going to need to know my old
name anyway.
So I just sort of told them inthat moment, but also reflected
very gently that that wasn't theright name for me and it doesn't
really feel good to reflect onor talk about very much.
Allan (17:04):
A slightly different take on it- you asked about questions
that kids ask.
Sometimes it's the adults thatmake things the most awkward.
So we'll have well-meaningfamily and they'll say, oh I can
be your mom, I feel bad becauseAdele doesn't have a mom.
Most of the times she doesn'tfeel bad that she doesn't have a
(17:25):
mom.
But there are occasions whensomething will come up, there's
a mother-daughter event or GirlScouts or something, then I will
gladly participate in all ofthat.
But sometimes it feels awkwardcause you're the odd person out
again and we work with Adele tohelp her with the words that she
can use to explain.
And there are actually timeswhen she'll actually say to one
(17:46):
of her friend's mom,'you're likea mother to me'.
So there are those expectationsand as Sam was saying there are
those narratives out there andyou're trying to fit in.
So thankfully we live in an agewhere there are more diverse
narratives, but still thepredominant narrative is a mom
and dad.
Emily (18:07):
Sam, do you have things that you've done, or as
professionals just advice forfolks, of how do you handle that
in a way that makes kids feelfeel comfortable and safe asking
(18:29):
questions, while still feelinggood about that happening for
yourself.
That is something that I justsee so often coming up in social
media- parents sharing, my kidasked about this or asked why
don't I have a mom?
Or what if this person was mydad?
And that the adults can feelthat in a way that I think most
(18:52):
kids are not even aware of.
Kids are not actually feelingsome loss or a sense of my
family is not enough.
It's just kids being kids orbeing creative or other outside
people asking about it.
So I am interested then inadvice for how to handle that as
(19:12):
the adult in the situation.
Sam (19:14):
For me it's having a lot of of support.
So recognizing that I like goingto therapy for myself, having
good friends, friends who are,when possible, in similar
situations in terms of beingtrans, being parents, being
somewhere in there.
So that I can work through thosethings without my kid in the
(19:37):
room and I can feel more readyand prepare to put my reactivity
to the side and just address theneed of the child that's in
front of me.
That's really for me, one of themost helpful things.
And I'm also not afraid to tryto buy time and just say, you
know, you're asking some reallygood questions.
(19:59):
I'm going to think on that andcome back to you.
Which isn't always the mostsatisfying to them in the
moment, but sometimes I justneed a little bit of time to
think about how I want to comeat this specific question.
And also, if it's specificallytriggering for me in one way or
another, to allow myself to calmdown a little and come at it
from a less emotional place.
Allan (20:23):
Sam is right on in terms of, if now isn't right moments
because you're triggered, you'retired or angry or whatever, come
back to it at a different time.
We've been lucky in southFlorida, we helped develop and
participated in social groupsfor LGBT parents and their kids.
(20:44):
We were thinking that this willbe good for kids, they'll be
able to talk about issue.
But our kids would get togetherand then just be kids.
And it was the parents who wouldtalk about how do you handle
this question?
It is good to have other parentsto talk to.
But everyone's child isdifferent.
Sam (21:04):
I find that being around other people going through
similar stuff helps you todiscover the things that you
didn't know, that weren't evenon your radar.
And they bring it up and you go,"oh right, yeah, that's
something I didn't even thinkabout.
But now that you bring it up,yes, I can totally resonate with
that or think about thissolution and this different
angle." I feel like even evenhearing Alan talk, thinking
(21:27):
about the idea of bringing booksin the classroom, that's such a
great idea.
And one of those things that isa solution that wasn't on my
radar, so absolutely great thingto do.
Emily (21:40):
What do you think brings on those questions from kids?
You've talked sometimes aboutdevelopment and my experience, I
definitely think it came fromquestions from peers.
But I'm really curious, asprofessionals working with
families and working in therapyand psychology, what is it that
(22:02):
brings on those questions fromkids?
Sam (22:05):
Oh well that fear coming up in the adult, to me definitely
speaks to what we've beentalking about- how adults can
oftentimes filter questionsthrough their own lens, which
often can be a lens that has alot of insecurity.
Like, is this the right kind offamily?
Am I doing this?
Is this okay?
Is my kid going to be okay?
(22:26):
Maybe that's some internalizedphobia stuff that we're
processing as parents as we'rebuilding these families.
To your other point, I thinkthat really those questions for
the kids oftentimes are justbecause they're curious and
trying to figure out their storyor from peers, which has been my
personal experience.
(22:46):
So this year Sage started in a new school, which has been
awesome for them and so manyways, but in terms of gender
equity is pretty regressive.
And so almost all the familiesare really classic cis, hetero
nuclear families with a stay athome mom who's devotes tons of
time at the school.
That is not in any way, shape orform close to our reality.
(23:08):
So that's been bringing up a lotof kind of jealousy and
curiosity for Sage.
And then a lot of their peersdoubted that I'm Sage's natal
parent.
And even when Sage goes toexplain it and says, yeah, my
Dad, Sam was pregnant with me.
They still don't believe itbecause in their minds there's
no way that a dad could ever bepregnant.
(23:29):
And even if they try to sharethe details of how that works
scientifically, it just doesn'treally resonate.
And Sage just wants to play andhave fun and be respected.
That's kind of their main goalin life.
So I try to remember with all ofthese questions or concerns that
come up that they just want tobe a kid.
Allan (23:50):
Looking back, I came out rather late in life for some
reason.
I had imagined that once I cameout to everyone, I wouldn't have
to come out again.
And then you realize you'reconstantly coming out.
I think that's kind of the samething with the kids and having
these discussions when they meetnew people and it could be their
(24:10):
parents or their teachers orother adults.
They get these questions andthen they're kind of forced into
answering them and they have tochoose what way that they want
to answer them.
We had a situation when Adelewas in a religious school and
had a well-meaning teacher.
Around Mother's Day the teacherwas having all the do cards in
Hebrew.
And my daughter is like, I don'thave a mother.
(24:36):
The teacher said, well, you haveto do one because of course you
have a mother.
So she had to explain it.
When you can preempt thoseproblems when kids are younger
and talk to the adults, that'sgreat, but you won't always be
there to protect your kids fromthose situations and
fortunately/unfortunately,they'll figure out how to deal
with them.
Emily (24:56):
How do you decide on the timing of what to share?
Do you wait for maybe a hint ofa question?
Do you just front load thatinformation so that they have
those tools?
And how do you determine what isage appropriate?
Is that just gut instinct?
(25:17):
Is that reading books?
Is that talking to peers?
Sam (25:21):
Gosh, I have a lot of reactions to this question.
It's a great one.
In terms of understandingdevelopment, it doesn't hurt at
all to do some reading and tounderstand some formal models of
child development just to havethat in your back pocket.
But obviously every kid is sodifferent.
(25:41):
And observing your child andspending time with them, playing
with them, just hanging out, isa great way to start doing some
calculations of your own aboutwhere your kid's at and their
coping abilities.
As you start noticing thestrengths that they do have, you
(26:05):
can think about how to reinforcethem or if you notice some gaps,
how to fill that in a little bitso that they're able to take
care of themselves even ifthey're in a situation and they
can't quite explain it or copewith it.
They have some personal skillsto deal with it.
To some degree, I feel like theclassic'good enough' parenting
(26:28):
is what we can offer.
We're not going to get itperfect.
There's going to be some thingswhere we share too much or too
little and we don't quite get itright.
But as time goes on, you getchances to do this over.
We're constantly rehashing this,reapproaching it and finding the
right sweet spot in terms oflike getting ahead of things.
(26:52):
I often talk about sharing ourlogic brains.
We have this fully developedprefrontal cortex that a lot of
young people haven't quitegotten to.
So as adults, we're able to say,let's talk this through for a
minute.
Let's imagine a scenario andlet's think of some ideas about
how we might want to deal withit.
You're lending your ability tologic and map out some potential
(27:17):
realities and then working withthem to talk about some extra
information or possiblesolutions.
Allan (27:24):
Our daughter was born 12 weeks early.
So as prepared as we were,having a daughter born 12 week
early, we weren't so prepared.
I think from that point in time,we got very much into let's be
on top of things.
Let's be ahead of things.
So we were probably talking toAdele about different issues
(27:46):
before she really needed to.
The best guide is if the childis old enough to ask the
question, then they are oldenough to hear the answers.
So we've tried to find what's anappropriate answer and sometimes
scientific, physiologicalexplanations are really not what
they're looking for.
There's a joke about some childcomes home to their parents and
(28:11):
is crying.
The parents ask,'what's wrong,what's wrong?''Well, you know,
the kids said something and Ididn't understand one of the
words and they were making funof me.''Well what do they say?'
'They said they found a condomon the veranda.' So the parents
start explaining what condomsare.
And the child says,'No, I knowwhat conoms are, what's a
veranda?' So you have the checkwhat they want to know.
(28:32):
And sometimes it's more involvedthan what you expect.
Try to do your best to havethese conversations and
sometimes it'll be awkward ornot be the best thing.
But you'll have otheropportunities to correct it.
Emily (28:48):
I think that's such a good point.
The both of you have made thatno one's going to be a perfect
parent.
Parents put so much work intoeither bringing kids into the
family and coming out throughany kind of process.
There's often so much work donehaving that kid and we've worked
(29:09):
so hard to be a fully presentparent or to be a parent in the
first place, that you want to doit right.
And there's just a million waysto do it right.
And a million ways to do itwrong.
And everyone does have a comboof the two and that's okay.
I often will share comments andI see people writing on social
media things that I would do.
(29:30):
Like, my kiddo is playing thatthey have a dad that he's a spy
or a secret agent, and that'swhy he's not around.
And the parents are thinking,what does this mean?
What's wrong?
What am I doing wrong?
Of course I don't know theanswer, there is no answer.
But from my experience, theanswer is nothing.
(29:53):
You're not doing anything wrong.
I loved my family, I felt verysafe at home.
I had loving adults in my lifeand I still pretended that my
sperm donor was trying to sendme secret messages and he was
actually a prince who was tryingto reach me to invite me to live
in his castle.
And it's not that I didn't havea happy house, I just was a
(30:14):
dramatic kid and loved the dramaof that idea.
So that would honestly be myanswer.
Sometimes kids are just beingkids and it's totally healthy to
be having these conversations orquestions.
For parents who are hearing someof these tougher questions or
questions that they perceive asbeing a little sensitive or are
(30:38):
challenging for them as aparent, what advice do you have
for them?
Sam (30:43):
Well, like I had mentioned before, my advice generally is
to be developmentally,appropriately transparent and
try to figure out your kid'scoping skills and abilities and
reinforce those.
Just give them the truth to theextent that they can cope with
it as far as you're able toassess.
(31:03):
Really just being very concreteand specific and what's in front
of them, what's in there, what'sactually in their life that
they're experiencing, ratherthan sort of getting onto our
adult tangents and thinking inthese big terms.
Most of the time I feel likekids tend to be really concrete.
(31:25):
It's really about what's infront of them.
That's what I've felt has beenmost effective for us in our
family.
Allan (31:38):
Parents sometimes feel like they have to be perfect
because they're being judgedmore.
Adele was growing up in an agewhere same-sex marriage was not
legal.
And in Florida adoption was notlegal by gay and lesbian parents
and so on.
We had to prove that we were asgood parents as everyone else.
And I think there's still someof that.
(31:58):
I think partly it's just tellingourselves to do our best and our
kids are going to be fantasticand in some ways they're
actually going to haveadvantages from the families
that we are creating.
I am an adult queerspawn who was made by my lesbian mom
(00:25):
and a sperm donor.
Growing up I knew our family wasdifferent and that the way that
I was conceived was not the sameas my friends.
I loved my family and I knew thescientific basis about how
babies were made, but there wasa lot left out by my parents.
So, as kids do, I filled in thegaps and just made up stuff in
(00:47):
my head.
And that is to say, only when Iwasn't boldly explaining what a
sperm donor was to my newfriends at age seven, much to
the shock of their parents.
I remember the stories that Imade up, like how I pretended my
donor was trying to send mesecret messages.
I know many other queerspawnhave similar stories.
(01:10):
I wanted to talk about thisexperience with some parents who
know the other side of toughquestions or funny creativity
from queerspawn, from kids withLGBTQ parents.
With me are Allan and Sam.
Allan Barsky lives in southFlorida with his husband Greg,
daughter Adelle, and their dogTippy.
(01:31):
Dr Barsky teaches conflictresolution, social work
practice, and professionalethics courses at Florida
Atlantic University.
The family enjoys participatingin theater, music, travel,
silliness, and social action.
Sam Skye is an art therapist andlicensed professional counselor,
living with his partner and twochildren in Portland, Oregon.
(01:52):
Sam works in private practicewith LGBTQ+ people of all ages
specializing in supportingindividuals through gender
exploration and transition.
Sam is currently working on achildren's book for youth
considering puberty blockers andplanning a summer arts camp for
gender diverse kids inelementary school.
So welcome Allan and Sam.
(02:13):
I'm going to start by asking thequestion that I ask everybody as
we get started.Who is in yourfamily and how was your family
formed?
Allan (02:26):
Sure.
In our household it is myself,my husband Greg, my daughter
Adele, and our dog Tippy.
Often when strangers ask usquestions like, where did you
get her, talking about ourdaughter, we will tell them that
we found her in the bakery aisleat Publix and the conversation
(02:47):
goes from that.
So sometimes people will askintrusive questions out of the
blue and sometimes we'll justkinda joke around.
And when we get to know peoplewe will explain that our
daughter was born throughsurrogacy.
We had a surrogate to give birthto our daughter and she's a
wonderful woman who we stillhave a relationship with.
Our family sees her on anongoing basis.
We also have an anonymous eggdonor who we have never met.
Sam (03:19):
My family consists of myself, my wife, Megan, and our
two kids, Jude and Sage.
Sage is eight years old and usesthey/them pronouns and Jude is
almost two.
I was Sage's natal parent, so Iwas pregnant with Sage, and Sage
calls me Papa.
Sage was conceived with theirother dad who I was married to
(03:45):
at the time.
His name is Jay.
We divorced when Sage was stillan infant and Megan and I met
when Sage was around three yearsold.
We've been together for sixyears and we've been married for
(04:05):
three.
Megan is Jude's natal parent andwe conceived Jude through ICI at
home with help of my brother,who was our donor.
Emily (04:18):
Okay.
And what are some of yourfavorite things to do as a
family?
Sam (04:22):
Our family loves to go on adventures together.
We travel a lot.
Last year we spent a monthtraveling through Germany.
When we're not doing that biggeradventure stuff, we just like to
have play dates and there areconstantly kids in our house
just having fun or watchingmovies.
Emily (04:43):
Great.
And Allan what are some of yourfavorite things to do with the
family?
Allan (04:47):
We live in south Florida, so going to the beach and
swimming sometimes in out pool,and board games.
We also enjoy travel and beingactive in our communities.
Emily (05:02):
Great.
So this episode I really wantedto talk about two sides of some
of the really interesting thingsthat kids say.
What is in their brain, whatthey're going through, what
they're thinking about.
We know that kids say somepretty hilarious things.
(05:22):
Look on Twitter or Facebook andyou'll find parents sharing
great things, articles orlisticles about it.
Is there anything that sticksout in your mind of some of
those like real gems ofparticularly funny things your
kiddos have said that surprisedyou?
Allan (05:44):
Our daughter, Adele, has come home from school a few
times and told us that she hadto explain sex education to kids
as early as pre-k andkindergarten.
She said"kids were askingquestions but they didn't even
understand what sperm was."
Emily (06:02):
Yep! Has she ever told you like what she's telling
them?
Is she getting it right?
Is she accurate?
Allan (06:11):
Yeah, well she's fifteen now so hopefully it's accurate!
But even back then we werealways very open about
biological connections and howshe was born so all of that just
came very naturally to her.
What was interesting was fromwhat was normal and natural to
(06:35):
her, she was surprised thatfriends didn't understand this
or that.
A lot of times kids will say,'yeah, but who's your mom' and
she explains that she has twodads.
That can get tiresome whenyou're a young person, answering
the same question over and over.
Especially when the peopleasking don't really believe what
you're saying.
Emily (06:57):
Totally.
And Sam do any particularlyinteresting or funny stuff from
your kiddos come to mind?
Sam (07:04):
When Sage was pretty young, when I transitioned, they were
probably three or so, justbarely old enough for us to
explain it to them, it had to bevery simplistic.
We were talking about takinghormones for medical transition,
(07:25):
what testosterone does, thatsort of thing.
They started calling it beardmedicine, which I thought was
very cute label for whattestosterone is and still to
this day they refer to it asbeard medicine.
Recently we were all out to eatas a family.
There was this little boysitting next to us with his dad,
(07:46):
and he looked over, he was maybefive or so, he looked over at
Sage and in this mean tone said'do you have a dad?
Because it doesn't look like youdo.' We just didn't have any
idea what to say because he wasa little kid and he was with his
parent and his parent lookedmortified.
Anyway, so we just went back toeating and kind of laughed
(08:07):
because A) it's hilariousbecause Sage actually has two
dads.
And B) Sage was just so sweet.
They came over and looked at me,gave me a hug and held my
shoulders, They were like,'Iknow you're my dad.
You're a manly man.' Which Ijust thought was very sweet.
Not normally something I woulduse as a label for myself in any
(08:27):
way, but just a really sweetmoment.
Emily (08:31):
Yeah.
And I have to say, I really dothink that kids with LGBTQ+
parents or caregivers, can beespecially surprising or
creative or funny because, asyou've both mentioned, we're
given age appropriateinformation about our families,
(08:52):
how we came to be in a familyand how other people might
perceive our family.
But a lot of our peers are notgiven even that age appropriate
information.
So kids fill in the gaps.
I love that shock sometimes thatother kids can experience.
I mean I have no memory of thisbut my best friend's mom tells
(09:14):
the story now of when I had justI moved to a new town, she was
meeting me as her daughter's newfriend for the first time and
was driving us.
She tuned out a little bit andwhen she tuned back in, she
says, I was in the back seatexplaining what a sperm donor
was to her daughter at ageseven.
She was like, what is happening,although she played it cool.
To me that was what I did.
(09:37):
I had to talk about that all thetime.
Why wouldn't I talk about havinga sperm donor?
That is my every day.
I actually put a call out onsocial media to ask for other
stories from folks.
So I just want to share a few ofthem, and then we can talk about
them a little bit.
The first one is:"We've alwaysbeen very open about how babies
(10:07):
are made in our house.
When I was preparing to be asurrogate, we were also open
with our kids about thatprocess.
We were hanging out with theintended parents and our son who
was almost five at this pointturns to the dad and very
seriously asks,'have you alreadytaken the sperm of your body to
(10:29):
put it in my mom?
And the intended dad's face gotbright red.
Then he backed away slowly."Which is a story I just love.
Like sometimes we know thescience but we don't know all of
the science or exactly how itworks.
Somebody else shared that,"whenmy kiddo made his first friend
(10:52):
at Family Week in Provincetown,he said,'you have two dads?
I don't even have one dad!"Family Week in Provincetown is
the largest gathering of LGBTQfamilies in the world.
So I just love that.
Have you noticed your kidsfilling in some of those gaps in
(11:16):
knowledge or have you heard themtalking biology that they kind
of know but don't all the wayknow?
Sam (11:25):
Yeah, I can definitely speak to that.
With our second kid, Jude, we'vebeen really open about that
whole process.
In my professional work, I'veseen that the research suggests
that transparency is really thebest approach.
(11:47):
A developmentally appropriatetransparency, right?
So we've been talking about thata lot, but also when you're that
age, like five, six, even nowwith an understanding the
science behind it, it'scomplicated.
Jude came to be because mybrother was the donor and my
brother is gay, which issomething that Sage knows,
(12:08):
although I think they still kindof totally don't fully
understand the concepts ofsexual identity, which is
totally fair when you're eight.
So we were talking about it andjust trying to understand
Steven's role as a donor.
And they described Steven asJude's straight uncle, which I
think is their way of trying toexplain like the reproduction
science.
(12:31):
It was just such an interestingterm to apply.
So that was kind of an exampleof that for me.
Emily (12:37):
Allan, do you know of your daughter filling in any of
those gaps in information there?
Allan (12:48):
Yeah, I knew that sometimes she's just got a good
sense of humor about it.
She was in a science class and ateacher pulled out a Petri dish
and she goes,'oh my mom'.
We sometimes get phone callsfrom well-meaning parents, who
they say, I'm not sure how I'msupposed to handle this, I'm
(13:10):
getting certain questions.
And Family Equality had somematerials that we gave to
teachers and other parents andthere are other books and
videos, so that was reallyhelpful.
So I think it's, it's actually agood thing you don't want to
always put on your kids.
You are in charge of informingother families about how LGBT
families can be constructed.
(13:31):
But it is a role that our kidsare taking.
Emily (13:34):
Absolutely.
Especially with our peers.
You know, in those conversationswhen adults aren't always
present, it's happening.
It is also true that kids canask questions or say things that
can feel surprising or shockingor sometimes hurtful to parents,
without the kids intending tonecessarily be hurtful.
(13:56):
I as I grew older, I think Istill felt pretty comfortable
asking some of those questions.
And part of that was definitelykudos to my parents for telling
me if I wanted to talk about mydonor, it's okay.
They were open to it.
But that's hard to do sometimesand it can be really hard for
some folks.
Yeah.
Does that seem true to you aswell?
Allan (14:20):
So I think when Adele was younger, she knew that she had
the surrogate mom who gave birthto her.
And that was kind of sufficientand more recently she's thinking
more and understanding moreabout her biological mother.
She's wanting to get in touchwith her.
And so, we had a writtenagreement through the fertility
(14:41):
clinic.
So we actually have tried topursue that but it does get a
little bit more challenging toask some more questions as she
gets older.
But it really fits their stageof development, she wants to
know where she's coming from.
I can really understand that.
So I want to be supportive ofthat and help her through it.
(15:03):
But at the same time you're notable to get in contact with the
biological mom.
Sam (15:13):
Yeah.
Allan, what you're saying reallyresonates with me in terms of
using understanding ofdevelopment to help separate
yourself from any questions thatcould feel potentially hurtful.
Or we might translate them inour adults minds and feel like
they are almost judgmental orsomehow against our family
(15:34):
structure.
For me, using that lens ofsaying, well this is just my
kid's process and how theybecome the full-grown version of
themselves and develop their ownstories and narratives about
their life.
So it empowers me to pushthrough anything that might kind
of touch on more sensitivesubjects for me.
(15:55):
As an example, because Sage wasso young, they are kind of
forgetting some of the originaldetails of my life before I
transitioned.
And so they recently asked whatmy old name was before I changed
it.
And it really bothered me.
I mean, I want so badly to livethis fantasy that my name and my
(16:17):
identity were always mine and toput the past away because
fundamentally things like sayingmy old name makes me feel
dysphoric.
But as a parent, I really feltlike it was important to be
honest.
This is Sage's history too.
And I think it's important forthem to be able to integrate and
organize their memories.
All of us are constantlywriting, rewriting, and
(16:39):
reprocessing our life stories.
So I feel like it's my duty tosupport my children in that
work.
And practically speaking, Sageis going to need to know my old
name anyway.
So I just sort of told them inthat moment, but also reflected
very gently that that wasn't theright name for me and it doesn't
really feel good to reflect onor talk about very much.
Allan (17:04):
A slightly different take on it- you asked about questions
that kids ask.
Sometimes it's the adults thatmake things the most awkward.
So we'll have well-meaningfamily and they'll say, oh I can
be your mom, I feel bad becauseAdele doesn't have a mom.
Most of the times she doesn'tfeel bad that she doesn't have a
(17:25):
mom.
But there are occasions whensomething will come up, there's
a mother-daughter event or GirlScouts or something, then I will
gladly participate in all ofthat.
But sometimes it feels awkwardcause you're the odd person out
again and we work with Adele tohelp her with the words that she
can use to explain.
And there are actually timeswhen she'll actually say to one
(17:46):
of her friend's mom,'you're likea mother to me'.
So there are those expectationsand as Sam was saying there are
those narratives out there andyou're trying to fit in.
So thankfully we live in an agewhere there are more diverse
narratives, but still thepredominant narrative is a mom
and dad.
Emily (18:07):
Sam, do you have things that you've done, or as
professionals just advice forfolks, of how do you handle that
in a way that makes kids feelfeel comfortable and safe asking
(18:29):
questions, while still feelinggood about that happening for
yourself.
That is something that I justsee so often coming up in social
media- parents sharing, my kidasked about this or asked why
don't I have a mom?
Or what if this person was mydad?
And that the adults can feelthat in a way that I think most
(18:52):
kids are not even aware of.
Kids are not actually feelingsome loss or a sense of my
family is not enough.
It's just kids being kids orbeing creative or other outside
people asking about it.
So I am interested then inadvice for how to handle that as
(19:12):
the adult in the situation.
Sam (19:14):
For me it's having a lot of of support.
So recognizing that I like goingto therapy for myself, having
good friends, friends who are,when possible, in similar
situations in terms of beingtrans, being parents, being
somewhere in there.
So that I can work through thosethings without my kid in the
(19:37):
room and I can feel more readyand prepare to put my reactivity
to the side and just address theneed of the child that's in
front of me.
That's really for me, one of themost helpful things.
And I'm also not afraid to tryto buy time and just say, you
know, you're asking some reallygood questions.
(19:59):
I'm going to think on that andcome back to you.
Which isn't always the mostsatisfying to them in the
moment, but sometimes I justneed a little bit of time to
think about how I want to comeat this specific question.
And also, if it's specificallytriggering for me in one way or
another, to allow myself to calmdown a little and come at it
from a less emotional place.
Allan (20:23):
Sam is right on in terms of, if now isn't right moments
because you're triggered, you'retired or angry or whatever, come
back to it at a different time.
We've been lucky in southFlorida, we helped develop and
participated in social groupsfor LGBT parents and their kids.
(20:44):
We were thinking that this willbe good for kids, they'll be
able to talk about issue.
But our kids would get togetherand then just be kids.
And it was the parents who wouldtalk about how do you handle
this question?
It is good to have other parentsto talk to.
But everyone's child isdifferent.
Sam (21:04):
I find that being around other people going through
similar stuff helps you todiscover the things that you
didn't know, that weren't evenon your radar.
And they bring it up and you go,"oh right, yeah, that's
something I didn't even thinkabout.
But now that you bring it up,yes, I can totally resonate with
that or think about thissolution and this different
angle." I feel like even evenhearing Alan talk, thinking
(21:27):
about the idea of bringing booksin the classroom, that's such a
great idea.
And one of those things that isa solution that wasn't on my
radar, so absolutely great thingto do.
Emily (21:40):
What do you think brings on those questions from kids?
You've talked sometimes aboutdevelopment and my experience, I
definitely think it came fromquestions from peers.
But I'm really curious, asprofessionals working with
families and working in therapyand psychology, what is it that
(22:02):
brings on those questions fromkids?
Sam (22:05):
Oh well that fear coming up in the adult, to me definitely
speaks to what we've beentalking about- how adults can
oftentimes filter questionsthrough their own lens, which
often can be a lens that has alot of insecurity.
Like, is this the right kind offamily?
Am I doing this?
Is this okay?
Is my kid going to be okay?
(22:26):
Maybe that's some internalizedphobia stuff that we're
processing as parents as we'rebuilding these families.
To your other point, I thinkthat really those questions for
the kids oftentimes are justbecause they're curious and
trying to figure out their storyor from peers, which has been my
personal experience.
(22:46):
So this year Sage started in a new school, which has been
awesome for them and so manyways, but in terms of gender
equity is pretty regressive.
And so almost all the familiesare really classic cis, hetero
nuclear families with a stay athome mom who's devotes tons of
time at the school.
That is not in any way, shape orform close to our reality.
(23:08):
So that's been bringing up a lotof kind of jealousy and
curiosity for Sage.
And then a lot of their peersdoubted that I'm Sage's natal
parent.
And even when Sage goes toexplain it and says, yeah, my
Dad, Sam was pregnant with me.
They still don't believe itbecause in their minds there's
no way that a dad could ever bepregnant.
(23:29):
And even if they try to sharethe details of how that works
scientifically, it just doesn'treally resonate.
And Sage just wants to play andhave fun and be respected.
That's kind of their main goalin life.
So I try to remember with all ofthese questions or concerns that
come up that they just want tobe a kid.
Allan (23:50):
Looking back, I came out rather late in life for some
reason.
I had imagined that once I cameout to everyone, I wouldn't have
to come out again.
And then you realize you'reconstantly coming out.
I think that's kind of the samething with the kids and having
these discussions when they meetnew people and it could be their
(24:10):
parents or their teachers orother adults.
They get these questions andthen they're kind of forced into
answering them and they have tochoose what way that they want
to answer them.
We had a situation when Adelewas in a religious school and
had a well-meaning teacher.
Around Mother's Day the teacherwas having all the do cards in
Hebrew.
And my daughter is like, I don'thave a mother.
(24:36):
The teacher said, well, you haveto do one because of course you
have a mother.
So she had to explain it.
When you can preempt thoseproblems when kids are younger
and talk to the adults, that'sgreat, but you won't always be
there to protect your kids fromthose situations and
fortunately/unfortunately,they'll figure out how to deal
with them.
Emily (24:56):
How do you decide on the timing of what to share?
Do you wait for maybe a hint ofa question?
Do you just front load thatinformation so that they have
those tools?
And how do you determine what isage appropriate?
Is that just gut instinct?
(25:17):
Is that reading books?
Is that talking to peers?
Sam (25:21):
Gosh, I have a lot of reactions to this question.
It's a great one.
In terms of understandingdevelopment, it doesn't hurt at
all to do some reading and tounderstand some formal models of
child development just to havethat in your back pocket.
But obviously every kid is sodifferent.
(25:41):
And observing your child andspending time with them, playing
with them, just hanging out, isa great way to start doing some
calculations of your own aboutwhere your kid's at and their
coping abilities.
As you start noticing thestrengths that they do have, you
(26:05):
can think about how to reinforcethem or if you notice some gaps,
how to fill that in a little bitso that they're able to take
care of themselves even ifthey're in a situation and they
can't quite explain it or copewith it.
They have some personal skillsto deal with it.
To some degree, I feel like theclassic'good enough' parenting
(26:28):
is what we can offer.
We're not going to get itperfect.
There's going to be some thingswhere we share too much or too
little and we don't quite get itright.
But as time goes on, you getchances to do this over.
We're constantly rehashing this,reapproaching it and finding the
right sweet spot in terms oflike getting ahead of things.
(26:52):
I often talk about sharing ourlogic brains.
We have this fully developedprefrontal cortex that a lot of
young people haven't quitegotten to.
So as adults, we're able to say,let's talk this through for a
minute.
Let's imagine a scenario andlet's think of some ideas about
how we might want to deal withit.
You're lending your ability tologic and map out some potential
(27:17):
realities and then working withthem to talk about some extra
information or possiblesolutions.
Allan (27:24):
Our daughter was born 12 weeks early.
So as prepared as we were,having a daughter born 12 week
early, we weren't so prepared.
I think from that point in time,we got very much into let's be
on top of things.
Let's be ahead of things.
So we were probably talking toAdele about different issues
(27:46):
before she really needed to.
The best guide is if the childis old enough to ask the
question, then they are oldenough to hear the answers.
So we've tried to find what's anappropriate answer and sometimes
scientific, physiologicalexplanations are really not what
they're looking for.
There's a joke about some childcomes home to their parents and
(28:11):
is crying.
The parents ask,'what's wrong,what's wrong?''Well, you know,
the kids said something and Ididn't understand one of the
words and they were making funof me.''Well what do they say?'
'They said they found a condomon the veranda.' So the parents
start explaining what condomsare.
And the child says,'No, I knowwhat conoms are, what's a
veranda?' So you have the checkwhat they want to know.
(28:32):
And sometimes it's more involvedthan what you expect.
Try to do your best to havethese conversations and
sometimes it'll be awkward ornot be the best thing.
But you'll have otheropportunities to correct it.
Emily (28:48):
I think that's such a good point.
The both of you have made thatno one's going to be a perfect
parent.
Parents put so much work intoeither bringing kids into the
family and coming out throughany kind of process.
There's often so much work donehaving that kid and we've worked
(29:09):
so hard to be a fully presentparent or to be a parent in the
first place, that you want to doit right.
And there's just a million waysto do it right.
And a million ways to do itwrong.
And everyone does have a comboof the two and that's okay.
I often will share comments andI see people writing on social
media things that I would do.
(29:30):
Like, my kiddo is playing thatthey have a dad that he's a spy
or a secret agent, and that'swhy he's not around.
And the parents are thinking,what does this mean?
What's wrong?
What am I doing wrong?
Of course I don't know theanswer, there is no answer.
But from my experience, theanswer is nothing.
(29:53):
You're not doing anything wrong.
I loved my family, I felt verysafe at home.
I had loving adults in my lifeand I still pretended that my
sperm donor was trying to sendme secret messages and he was
actually a prince who was tryingto reach me to invite me to live
in his castle.
And it's not that I didn't havea happy house, I just was a
(30:14):
dramatic kid and loved the dramaof that idea.
So that would honestly be myanswer.
Sometimes kids are just beingkids and it's totally healthy to
be having these conversations orquestions.
For parents who are hearing someof these tougher questions or
questions that they perceive asbeing a little sensitive or are
(30:38):
challenging for them as aparent, what advice do you have
for them?
Sam (30:43):
Well, like I had mentioned before, my advice generally is
to be developmentally,appropriately transparent and
try to figure out your kid'scoping skills and abilities and
reinforce those.
Just give them the truth to theextent that they can cope with
it as far as you're able toassess.
(31:03):
Really just being very concreteand specific and what's in front
of them, what's in there, what'sactually in their life that
they're experiencing, ratherthan sort of getting onto our
adult tangents and thinking inthese big terms.
Most of the time I feel likekids tend to be really concrete.
(31:25):
It's really about what's infront of them.
That's what I've felt has beenmost effective for us in our
family.
Allan (31:38):
Parents sometimes feel like they have to be perfect
because they're being judgedmore.
Adele was growing up in an agewhere same-sex marriage was not
legal.
And in Florida adoption was notlegal by gay and lesbian parents
and so on.
We had to prove that we were asgood parents as everyone else.
And I think there's still someof that.
(31:58):
I think partly it's just tellingourselves to do our best and our
kids are going to be fantasticand in some ways they're
actually going to haveadvantages from the families
that we are creating.
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