December 17, 2019 • 31 mins
The options for known vs anonymous vs identity-release sperm/egg donors and the ability to contact donor-siblings have undergone big changes in recent years. Today, we’re are coming across people who share DNA through test companies – sometimes accidentally. To share our own experiences and to dig into the realities and ethics of it all, are two fellow donor-conceived queerspawn – Jamie and Lilly!
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Emily (00:04):
When my mom decided to become pregnant, there were a
(00:26):
few sperm banks and doctors thatwould work with lesbians and
single women.
She chose a local clinic thatused fresh sperm from local
donors, so not frozen or stored.
And the more I learn about theclinic and the whole process,
the more I'm just shocked by howunregulated it was at the time.
For queerspawn like me andtoday's guests, that means that
(00:49):
the whole options of knownversus unknown versus identity
release donors, and our abilityto contact those donors and
donor siblings, have reallyundergone big changes over the
years.
Some websites were createdalmost 20 years ago to help
people with shared DNA, makecontact with one another when
(01:09):
possible.
There was a whole lot ofintention in these sort of
registries and websites at thetime and the way I contacted my
donor.
There was also a lot ofintention involved, but today
we're coming across people whoshare DNA through test companies
- sometimes accidentally.
To share our own experiences andto dig into the realities and
(01:31):
ethics of it all are to fellowdonor conceived queerspawn,
Jamie and Lilly! I'm going toget us started with my first
(02:44):
question for every episode, whois in your family and how was it
formed?
Jamie (02:55):
My family is made up of myself, my biological mother,
Vicky, my younger brother, Joey,who joined our family through
adoption.
And I also have foster sistersthat lived with me while I was a
child and I maintain arelationship with as an adult,
(03:17):
even though we only spent a fewyears living together.
I also have several mothers andmaternal figures in my life
other than my biological mom,some who are with me still and
some who have passed away andthey've played varying degrees
in my life.
One who is kind of important forthe story today is the woman my
(03:40):
mother was with when I was bornand her name is Nancy.
Emily (03:44):
Thank you.
And Lilly, who is in your familyand how was it formed?
Lilly (03:48):
I was born via anonymous sperm donation in 2003 I have an
older brother and a youngersister and essentially four
mothers, so two that were therewhen I was born and then they
split.
And now one has a wife.
So Catherine has a wife, Beth,and Janine has a girlfriend,
Lucy.
Emily (04:08):
And what are the different terms that you like to
use when describing orexplaining your family in terms
of donor and donor siblings?
What terms do you use and why dothose particular terms feel
right for you?
Lilly (04:24):
I call my biological siblings in my family, my sister
and my brother.
But my half siblings around theworld, I consider my
half-siblings, even though wetechnically all have different
fathers, even within my family.
So my"brother" is really onlyhalf my brother and my sister's
only half.
(04:45):
My direct siblings in myhousehold are my brother and
sister and my unknown halfsiblings from the same sperm
donor are my half-siblings.
Emily (04:56):
Thanks.
And what about you Jamie?
What sort of language do youlike to use when describing like
donor relations?
Jamie (05:02):
Well, the siblings that I grew up with are just my
siblings.
Even the foster siblings, that'smy sister.
I would refer to people that areborn through the same donor as
my half-siblings and I tend touse the word donor or donor dad
or dad when referring to thisperson who helped create me.
(05:29):
Occasionally I use biologicalfather.
I don't have any strong feelingsfor or against any of these
terms right now.
Emily (05:37):
I myself use'donor' when I talk about my sperm donor, who
I have been able to contact andhave a relationship with now
after turning 18 and my donorsiblings.
Some of those terms of like whoI just refer to as'sister'
versus donor sibling hasdefinitely changed over time as
our relationships have changedand that's been really
(05:58):
interesting.
But I think my term for my donorhas stayed pretty consistent.
So we're all donor conceived.
What's that like?
What are some of your feelingsabout being donor conceived?
How do you feel today and havethose feelings change over the
years?
Lilly (06:14):
In a word, I would say it's totally whack.
I think over the years I've felta lot of different emotions
towards my family.
So when I was younger, obviouslynaive, don't really understand
what it's like.
I also grew up in Ithaca, NewYork, which is very queer, very
open.
And then when I was six we movedto conservative New Hampshire
(06:37):
where everyone lives in anuclear family.
And so to be different, Irealized my family is not the
normal and I started to kind ofrepress that.
And even my friends, I wouldn'ttell about my family.
So there was a lot of internalhomophobia going on.
But recently as I came out andrealized that I was second
(06:57):
generation queerspawn, I begunto take a large amount of pride
in my family and in theirqueerness.
So that's definitely changedover time.
But it's always been a huge partof my identity, whether I liked
it or not.
Emily (07:11):
But what do you mean when you say being donor conceived is
whack?
Jamie (07:15):
I'd say it's a wrench thrown into your life that you
don't have a choice over and youcan determine how you react to
this wrench.
But there's no way to pretendthat this is not a part of your
life because your parents areinherently a part of your
identity and you can want tohide that and repress that.
But it's really hard to do thatand also be genuine and
(07:38):
vulnerable and real.
Emily (07:40):
And how about you Jamie?
What do you feel now today aboutbeing donor conceived?
How's that changed?
Has that changed over time?
Jamie (07:46):
In the past few years I've really felt like being
donor conceived has played abigger, more prevalent role in
my identity than it did inprevious years.
But it's always been somethingthat I was very interested in
and kind of nostalgic about.
I was a super sentimental kidand I definitely remember
(08:09):
wishing I could find my dad whenI would throw a coin in the
fountain.
But as I got older I definitelywas searching for my donor and
thinking about him.
And I definitely went through aperiod where I was pretty mad
about it.
Not in a overtly aggressive madway, but in a feeling that it
(08:31):
was unfair.
Emily (08:32):
The like having a donor period or having an anonymous
donor?
Jamie (08:35):
Having an anonymous donor.
But I also found some sort ofpower, I think, in being able to
articulate that and use that totalk about how my agency was
taken away at conception andspeaking about it from that
place.
And being able to educate aboutit definitely changed my
(08:58):
relationship to it.
And now I feel, I feel prettysolid about it.
I feel like it's a big part ofmy identity.
I agree with Lily about that.
It's a very big part of myidentity that often gets
downplayed.
So I'm all for bringing it outand highlighting it and talking
about it because I think it'ssomething that needs to be
(09:19):
taught.
Lilly (09:21):
And Lily, would you mind sharing a little bit more about
your own journey of the, thetype of donor that you have?
Have you thought aboutcontacting your donor?
I would love to know a littlebit more about your own
experience.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
Yeah, of course.
So I do have an anonymous spermdonor and over the years, how I
think about it and his existencehas definitely developed and
changed.
But as of recently I did findout his identity via chat forums
and then that was alsocompounded by 23andme genetic
(09:55):
testing, which linked me to him.
But I don't know that I wouldever want to meet him in person
because, as much as it soundschildish, I'm living with this
ideal of- I know his career, Iknow he's a professional, I know
he's intelligent.
And I'm happy right now as ofthis moment, living with the
idea that he can be whatever Iwant.
(10:16):
If I want him to be this perfecthuman with zero flaws, that is
what he is to me.
As of right now, I'm not sure ifI'm ready or want to see his
human flaws, if that would makeme appreciate him more.
But I do have some familymembers that are kind of pushing
for me to try and meet him andsay, Oh, maybe he'll die and I
(10:37):
will never have met my father.
But I don't think that I wouldfeel empty without having a
father figure in my life,because I do have other father
figures, but not my actualfather.
Emily (10:46):
Yeah.
I just relate to both of you somuch.
Jamie- of being a deep feeling,a creative kid.
I did the same thing where Ipretended my donor was writing
me notes and trying to reach mejust because I was creative and
it got some drama in my life.
It was exciting to think about.
(11:09):
And Lilly- similarly confrontingthis, Hey, maybe it's this
famous person and then canactually confronting that and
being like, Oh, it's a realhuman.
This is a real human who hashuman flaws and may have
different desires to get to knowme than I have to know them.
That was really scary.
(11:29):
What about donor's siblings?
I honestly did not think aboutdonor siblings as a possibility
of what contacting my donorcould yield or that they could
be out there.
I don't know why.
I just never thought about itthat much and as I was someone
who was raised an only-child, itstill just didn't cross my mind.
Do you have different feelingsabout then knowing donors
(11:51):
siblings, looking for them,contacting them?
And have any of those feelingschanged over time?
Lilly (11:58):
I do know some of my donor-siblings through Facebook.
I've never met any of them.
My little sister in fact has mettwo of her half-siblings, but
I've never felt much of a desireto meet them because I feel that
if I were to meet them, itwouldn't be as much of a sibling
relationship, as it would justbe a friendship.
(12:19):
And is it worth all the effortto go out there and meet these
people just because they're halfof my DNA, but we have no other
connection?
I'm just not sure what kind ofrole they would end up playing
in my life if I were to meetthese half-siblings.
Emily (12:31):
Yeah, that's totally valid.
What about you Jamie?
Jamie (12:34):
I actually feel pretty differently than that.
I feel that meeting more peopleis just an opportunity to make
more points of connection in theuniverse, so to speak.
And I think that part of thatcomes from the fact that my
mother was not raised by her ownfather and she found her father
(13:00):
and her half siblings when I wasbaby.
So I got to see her connect withher half siblings and this great
connection that they made and italways made me really interested
to think about what my siblingscould be.
(13:20):
I did find someone who I believeto be a sibling, about 10 years
ago, through donor siblingregistry and we did some sort of
testing DNA testing at the time,but because I'm a woman and he's
a man, we needed both of ourmothers to test in order to rule
(13:42):
out the DNA properly.
And his mother's test never wentthrough, though he claims and
she claims that it was sent.
So we never got a hundredpercent conclusive proof.
But everything we were told saidthat yeah, we were siblings and
we went under this assumptionfor about eight years and we met
(14:03):
once and we're Facebook friendsand we would email back and
forth and we had you know, anice acquaintance relationship.
And when 23andme and Ancestrycame out, we discovered that
we're not actually halfsiblings.
But in an interesting twist,both of us believe we found our
(14:26):
donors in the same month.
Different men.
And we believe that we foundthem.
He has attempted contact withhis donor and I have not, mostly
out of my own fear and concernabout what that relationship
(14:46):
will be or not be.
But as it turns out, I have notfound any donor-siblings.
(14:53):
Lily not asking you to speak for any of your siblings at all,
your brother and sister, butyou've mentioned that your
sister has met and has adifferent relationship with a
couple of her donor siblings.
So I'm interested in yourexperience- you may not have
curiosities or may not want tocontact your donor, but do they
feel differently and how dothose conversations then go at
(15:14):
home if you're all sort oftalking about that or thinking
about that together?
Lilly (15:19):
It's interesting, we're all kind of reaching an age
where it's definitely more partof the conversation, where the
sibling rivalries becoming areally close friendship and we
can have these deepconversations about the
struggles that we've faced allbeing donor children.
So until recently I didn't evenrealize, my older brother had
(15:41):
gone through a lot of the samestruggles with identity and not
telling people about our parentsand kind of having to hide that
major part of us.
And I'm also learning from mysister going to meet her
half-siblings that she does havean urge to understand where
she's coming from and theseconnections between her and her
half siblings and how she becamethe person she is.
(16:04):
And I think it's just adifferent drive for each and
every one of us.
I've kind of been up and downwhether I want to meet my donors
and my siblings, my brother hasnever really had a huge urge
that I know of to meet hisbiological relatives versus my
little sister seems to have areally large urge to do that.
So it's just so different foreach and every one of us.
(16:26):
So it's interesting to see thecontrast.
Emily (16:28):
Yeah.
So I'm, I am interested, I wentthrough a formal process of like
requesting information for mydonor from the clinic and had
steps that I could take.
And so it was something that Iwas able to think about and plan
for for a number of years andemotionally prepare myself for.
When we think about anonymousdonors or unknown donors now,
(16:50):
you both have the experiences ofthat no longer necessarily can
remain unknown or anonymousanymore.
I would love your thoughts onwhat these DNA testing sites and
the new technology that's outthere in these websites.
What does that mean for peoplegrowing up now?
Can anybody truly be ananonymous donor anymore?
(17:12):
And is that a good thing?
Lilly (17:13):
I would say that there was a period of my life where I
really hated the fact that I wasdonor conceived and I was doing
all this research, looking intoam I like, messed up because I
had donor parents or gay moms orwhatever.
And I started looking at thesepeople who really heavily
(17:35):
believe that sperm donationshould never be anonymous and
that's something that I stand bytoday.
I'm sure that that opinion willshift a little bit with time,
but as of right now I think thatyou should as a human, have the
right to know your roots andknow why you are the way you
(17:58):
are, what health problems youmight have, and just even have
the name and a face to puttogether as opposed to a blank
in your life, which is a hugepart of your life.
Jamie (18:09):
So I liked what Emily had to say about that.
She had the opportunity to planfor this, to build to this, and
you knew that there was an endgame.
When you turned 18 you had thisoption.
This could be a possibility.
I feel like I grew up verydifferently because I was under
(18:31):
the belief that there was nopossibility and I had to accept
that in order to get through it.
And then DNA testing came alongand I didn't really believe that
it would make a difference.
And I delayed doing it for quitea while because I didn't want
(18:52):
this last possibility to notwork out.
And so when I did do the testingand decided to go whole hog into
it.
And I put this weird deadline onmyself that I had to contact him
before I turned 31 and I didnot.
I wrote most of my letter onFebruary 5th, the day before my
(19:15):
birthday, and then I justcouldn't send it.
But DNA testing changedeverything for many people.
They're working with second andthird cousins and working
backwards.
And I think that is this levelof dedication and perseverance
that many of us have had becausewe continue to think about this
for years.
I joined every registry I couldfind as soon as I had a computer
(19:40):
that worked to go on theinternet and thankfully my mom
was very supportive in all ofthat.
I think that there is no futurefor anonymous donation with the
technology that is now in ourhands.
Emily (19:57):
Yeah, it feels like a lot is just changing just from legal
protections.
I understand the logic for along time of having anonymous
donors was in large part becauseof that muddy uncertainty around
parentage rights and custodyrights and as more and more
people were using surrogates,egg donors, sperm donors, you
(20:20):
know all of that was happening.
There was this belief that wehave to protect ourselves and so
the best way to do that or thequickest way to do that is to
say no contact ever period, signthis contract.
Jamie (20:29):
I think all of that is absolutely true.
I think that anonymous donationplayed a very key part of family
building in the eighties andnineties because there were such
visible examples of the courtssiding against LGBT parents.
(20:51):
I have a really closerelationship with my mom and I
understand why she did it.
It was the only option that wasfeasible at the time.
She wishes that she didn't haveto do it.
She thinks that she should havemade a different choice, but I
(21:11):
know it's the only choice thatshe had.
All I'm saying is that with somany things that have changed
like you were pointing out,there is no need for it anymore.
That is not to say that peoplecan't have ID release donors or
open donors.
I'm specifically talking about100% anonymous donation with no
(21:36):
option to contact in the future.
Emily (21:39):
Lilly, have you talked with your parents about why they
chose or was that the onlychoice available for them for an
anonymous donor?
How are those conversationsgone, cause I know sometimes
those can be kind of tricky tonavigate with parents.
Lilly (21:53):
Unfortunately I really haven't.
I'm not sure the exactmotivation for having an
anonymous donor.
I assume it was probably aconvenience or to ensure that
it's the easiest route withlegalities and such.
I'm not sure how much theyconsidered the long term effects
of the anonymity or if it's evena thought now because there
(22:16):
haven't been enoughconversations, unfortunately.
I'm sure that'll changethroughout life, but it's still
a very fresh thing to be takingcontrol of my identity as
opposed to having everythingbeing done for me.
Everything else has been chosen,from the anonymous donor to
getting to know my father.
It wasn't me who reached out tomy father.
(22:38):
It was my mother who was on allthese registries.
It wasn't within my grasp.
It wasn't something that I wasallowed to try and meet and talk
to people.
So it's very fresh and new to beable to take charge of that.
And so I'm hoping that there wasgood motivation, but who knows.
I'm going to love my parents nomatter what, but maybe there
(23:00):
wasn't enough thoughtbeforehand.
Jamie (23:02):
I like, and I want to build off of what Lilly was just
saying about all of yourdecisions up to a certain point
being made by someone else and Ithink that that is a huge thing
that parents need to thinkabout.
They're not making just adecision about their own
parenting future.
They're making decisions abouttheir child's agency within
(23:28):
their own lives in the future.
Emily (23:30):
I believe that the overwhelming majority of people,
when deciding to become parents,from the beginning want the best
for their kids.
You know, as someone who has asperm donor and was able to
contact him, I'm grateful that Ihad, as Jamie as you're saying,
that agency and that it wassomething I was able to decide
(23:52):
on a nd control.
I think as much as parents, prospective parents are able to
allow that agency and futuredecision making to be in the
hands of their potentialoffspring, I think that's
fantastic when that option isavailable and I think that that
should be pursued as much aspossible.
I think it does get reallyinteresting when we think about
donor siblings and the more muchlooser regulations around
(24:17):
contacting them prior to turning18, than say if you had an open
identity donor.
And similarly if you have aknown donor, there's different
ages a nd different points inone's life in which your parents
kind of make the decision of,where are we going for a play
date?
You know, what family memberwe're g oing t o visit, how
often uncle so-and-so's allowedto visit, things like that.
(24:39):
And at what point that decisionmaking should then be into the
hands of the queerspawn youth tobe determining levels of
relationships, types ofrelationships with donors and
especially donor siblings.
I think it all gets reallycomplicated and every family is
different and every queerspawnis different.
But as much as able to be in theinformed consensual decision
(25:02):
making of the correspondindividual, the better.
Jamie (25:07):
I think that perspective parents need to question
themselves a bit about whattheir motivation is regarding
why they're choosing the type ofdonor that they're choosing.
And I think if people reallyinterrogate their own motives,
we're going to move away fromanonymous donation because I
don't think that any parentwants to take away their kid's
(25:32):
future choice
Emily (25:34):
As queerspawn, I feel like one of the gifts my parents
gave me by being out andchoosing to form the family the
way that they did is that I havea pretty expansive sense of what
is family and who can be familyand the role that biology, in my
experience, does not play inthat, just because of how I was
raised.
(25:54):
And I think that was a step forthem because they were both
raised by married heterosexualparents in a nuclear family.
That was not their experience.
And so creating family in a newexpansive way and allowing
family to be defined expansivelywas new.
I'm the first generation in myfamily experiencing that.
How do you think being donorconceived has colored your own
(26:17):
understanding of of family?
Lilly (26:18):
I think that when you are trying to aim towards this
nuclear family as a model ofwhat is good and what is to be
aimed for, it's such a highstandard and it really closes
you off to the beauty of thepeople around you that aren't
biologically related to you andI've noticed as a correlation
that as I began to accept myfamily for the chaos that it is,
(26:45):
that's when I began to become agood friend and make my friends
into family.
Jamie (26:50):
I don't necessarily see my donor as part of my family
because I've never met him.
Whether we choose to have thatperson in our life is different
from whether it matters that weknow who they are or matters,
(27:12):
that we have the choice to findout who they are.
Emily (27:16):
Any advice for queerspawn listening who are somewhere on
their own journeys?
Any advice for navigating thatjourney for themselves?
Lilly (27:26):
I'd say that it's really easy to get caught up in the
distant what if I find thisperson, what if I form a
connection, this family?
with this person that's sodistant and so mysterious to me.
And I think it's easy to getcaught up in that and forget
about the family that'ssupporting you in this moment
(27:47):
because they are so much moreimportant than this person who
may never be a part of your lifeis.
And as much as much as it willbe awesome, potentially, to have
a good response from this personand maybe introduce them to your
life, the people that arealready in your life are the
ones who you should be liftingup cause they are lifting you up
(28:08):
and that's the family.
Whether it's biological orwhether it's by association,
that's the family that mattersin this moment.
Jamie (28:16):
My advice would be both for queerspawn and their parents
that have used donor conception.
I think that it's reallyimportant to start talking about
these things.
I think transparency is the mostbeautiful thing that you can
bring to your family.
We need to be talking aboutthese things as a family and we
(28:36):
need to be talking about thesethings with our parents because
oftentimes we try to protect ourparents' feelings because it's
something that we've been kindof conditioned to do in order to
protect the queer family andit's absolutely okay for us to
be searching if we want tosearch and not searching if we
(28:59):
don't want to search.
And our parents should be ourbiggest advocates in that they
should be advocating for theirkids to have agency and teaching
their kids to use their agency.
Having these discussions from asearly in age as possible just
brings this into thequeerspawn's story and narrative
(29:22):
about themselves and helps themunderstand their own identities
and the things that they'refeeling.
And we would love to havesomebody to talk to about it who
is nonjudgmental, non shamingand who lets us explore feelings
that we're having.
When my mom decided to become pregnant, there were a
(00:26):
few sperm banks and doctors thatwould work with lesbians and
single women.
She chose a local clinic thatused fresh sperm from local
donors, so not frozen or stored.
And the more I learn about theclinic and the whole process,
the more I'm just shocked by howunregulated it was at the time.
For queerspawn like me andtoday's guests, that means that
(00:49):
the whole options of knownversus unknown versus identity
release donors, and our abilityto contact those donors and
donor siblings, have reallyundergone big changes over the
years.
Some websites were createdalmost 20 years ago to help
people with shared DNA, makecontact with one another when
(01:09):
possible.
There was a whole lot ofintention in these sort of
registries and websites at thetime and the way I contacted my
donor.
There was also a lot ofintention involved, but today
we're coming across people whoshare DNA through test companies
- sometimes accidentally.
To share our own experiences andto dig into the realities and
(01:31):
ethics of it all are to fellowdonor conceived queerspawn,
Jamie and Lilly! I'm going toget us started with my first
(02:44):
question for every episode, whois in your family and how was it
formed?
Jamie (02:55):
My family is made up of myself, my biological mother,
Vicky, my younger brother, Joey,who joined our family through
adoption.
And I also have foster sistersthat lived with me while I was a
child and I maintain arelationship with as an adult,
(03:17):
even though we only spent a fewyears living together.
I also have several mothers andmaternal figures in my life
other than my biological mom,some who are with me still and
some who have passed away andthey've played varying degrees
in my life.
One who is kind of important forthe story today is the woman my
(03:40):
mother was with when I was bornand her name is Nancy.
Emily (03:44):
Thank you.
And Lilly, who is in your familyand how was it formed?
Lilly (03:48):
I was born via anonymous sperm donation in 2003 I have an
older brother and a youngersister and essentially four
mothers, so two that were therewhen I was born and then they
split.
And now one has a wife.
So Catherine has a wife, Beth,and Janine has a girlfriend,
Lucy.
Emily (04:08):
And what are the different terms that you like to
use when describing orexplaining your family in terms
of donor and donor siblings?
What terms do you use and why dothose particular terms feel
right for you?
Lilly (04:24):
I call my biological siblings in my family, my sister
and my brother.
But my half siblings around theworld, I consider my
half-siblings, even though wetechnically all have different
fathers, even within my family.
So my"brother" is really onlyhalf my brother and my sister's
only half.
(04:45):
My direct siblings in myhousehold are my brother and
sister and my unknown halfsiblings from the same sperm
donor are my half-siblings.
Emily (04:56):
Thanks.
And what about you Jamie?
What sort of language do youlike to use when describing like
donor relations?
Jamie (05:02):
Well, the siblings that I grew up with are just my
siblings.
Even the foster siblings, that'smy sister.
I would refer to people that areborn through the same donor as
my half-siblings and I tend touse the word donor or donor dad
or dad when referring to thisperson who helped create me.
(05:29):
Occasionally I use biologicalfather.
I don't have any strong feelingsfor or against any of these
terms right now.
Emily (05:37):
I myself use'donor' when I talk about my sperm donor, who
I have been able to contact andhave a relationship with now
after turning 18 and my donorsiblings.
Some of those terms of like whoI just refer to as'sister'
versus donor sibling hasdefinitely changed over time as
our relationships have changedand that's been really
(05:58):
interesting.
But I think my term for my donorhas stayed pretty consistent.
So we're all donor conceived.
What's that like?
What are some of your feelingsabout being donor conceived?
How do you feel today and havethose feelings change over the
years?
Lilly (06:14):
In a word, I would say it's totally whack.
I think over the years I've felta lot of different emotions
towards my family.
So when I was younger, obviouslynaive, don't really understand
what it's like.
I also grew up in Ithaca, NewYork, which is very queer, very
open.
And then when I was six we movedto conservative New Hampshire
(06:37):
where everyone lives in anuclear family.
And so to be different, Irealized my family is not the
normal and I started to kind ofrepress that.
And even my friends, I wouldn'ttell about my family.
So there was a lot of internalhomophobia going on.
But recently as I came out andrealized that I was second
(06:57):
generation queerspawn, I begunto take a large amount of pride
in my family and in theirqueerness.
So that's definitely changedover time.
But it's always been a huge partof my identity, whether I liked
it or not.
Emily (07:11):
But what do you mean when you say being donor conceived is
whack?
Jamie (07:15):
I'd say it's a wrench thrown into your life that you
don't have a choice over and youcan determine how you react to
this wrench.
But there's no way to pretendthat this is not a part of your
life because your parents areinherently a part of your
identity and you can want tohide that and repress that.
But it's really hard to do thatand also be genuine and
(07:38):
vulnerable and real.
Emily (07:40):
And how about you Jamie?
What do you feel now today aboutbeing donor conceived?
How's that changed?
Has that changed over time?
Jamie (07:46):
In the past few years I've really felt like being
donor conceived has played abigger, more prevalent role in
my identity than it did inprevious years.
But it's always been somethingthat I was very interested in
and kind of nostalgic about.
I was a super sentimental kidand I definitely remember
(08:09):
wishing I could find my dad whenI would throw a coin in the
fountain.
But as I got older I definitelywas searching for my donor and
thinking about him.
And I definitely went through aperiod where I was pretty mad
about it.
Not in a overtly aggressive madway, but in a feeling that it
(08:31):
was unfair.
Emily (08:32):
The like having a donor period or having an anonymous
donor?
Jamie (08:35):
Having an anonymous donor.
But I also found some sort ofpower, I think, in being able to
articulate that and use that totalk about how my agency was
taken away at conception andspeaking about it from that
place.
And being able to educate aboutit definitely changed my
(08:58):
relationship to it.
And now I feel, I feel prettysolid about it.
I feel like it's a big part ofmy identity.
I agree with Lily about that.
It's a very big part of myidentity that often gets
downplayed.
So I'm all for bringing it outand highlighting it and talking
about it because I think it'ssomething that needs to be
(09:19):
taught.
Lilly (09:21):
And Lily, would you mind sharing a little bit more about
your own journey of the, thetype of donor that you have?
Have you thought aboutcontacting your donor?
I would love to know a littlebit more about your own
experience.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
Yeah, of course.
So I do have an anonymous spermdonor and over the years, how I
think about it and his existencehas definitely developed and
changed.
But as of recently I did findout his identity via chat forums
and then that was alsocompounded by 23andme genetic
(09:55):
testing, which linked me to him.
But I don't know that I wouldever want to meet him in person
because, as much as it soundschildish, I'm living with this
ideal of- I know his career, Iknow he's a professional, I know
he's intelligent.
And I'm happy right now as ofthis moment, living with the
idea that he can be whatever Iwant.
(10:16):
If I want him to be this perfecthuman with zero flaws, that is
what he is to me.
As of right now, I'm not sure ifI'm ready or want to see his
human flaws, if that would makeme appreciate him more.
But I do have some familymembers that are kind of pushing
for me to try and meet him andsay, Oh, maybe he'll die and I
(10:37):
will never have met my father.
But I don't think that I wouldfeel empty without having a
father figure in my life,because I do have other father
figures, but not my actualfather.
Emily (10:46):
Yeah.
I just relate to both of you somuch.
Jamie- of being a deep feeling,a creative kid.
I did the same thing where Ipretended my donor was writing
me notes and trying to reach mejust because I was creative and
it got some drama in my life.
It was exciting to think about.
(11:09):
And Lilly- similarly confrontingthis, Hey, maybe it's this
famous person and then canactually confronting that and
being like, Oh, it's a realhuman.
This is a real human who hashuman flaws and may have
different desires to get to knowme than I have to know them.
That was really scary.
(11:29):
What about donor's siblings?
I honestly did not think aboutdonor siblings as a possibility
of what contacting my donorcould yield or that they could
be out there.
I don't know why.
I just never thought about itthat much and as I was someone
who was raised an only-child, itstill just didn't cross my mind.
Do you have different feelingsabout then knowing donors
(11:51):
siblings, looking for them,contacting them?
And have any of those feelingschanged over time?
Lilly (11:58):
I do know some of my donor-siblings through Facebook.
I've never met any of them.
My little sister in fact has mettwo of her half-siblings, but
I've never felt much of a desireto meet them because I feel that
if I were to meet them, itwouldn't be as much of a sibling
relationship, as it would justbe a friendship.
(12:19):
And is it worth all the effortto go out there and meet these
people just because they're halfof my DNA, but we have no other
connection?
I'm just not sure what kind ofrole they would end up playing
in my life if I were to meetthese half-siblings.
Emily (12:31):
Yeah, that's totally valid.
What about you Jamie?
Jamie (12:34):
I actually feel pretty differently than that.
I feel that meeting more peopleis just an opportunity to make
more points of connection in theuniverse, so to speak.
And I think that part of thatcomes from the fact that my
mother was not raised by her ownfather and she found her father
(13:00):
and her half siblings when I wasbaby.
So I got to see her connect withher half siblings and this great
connection that they made and italways made me really interested
to think about what my siblingscould be.
(13:20):
I did find someone who I believeto be a sibling, about 10 years
ago, through donor siblingregistry and we did some sort of
testing DNA testing at the time,but because I'm a woman and he's
a man, we needed both of ourmothers to test in order to rule
(13:42):
out the DNA properly.
And his mother's test never wentthrough, though he claims and
she claims that it was sent.
So we never got a hundredpercent conclusive proof.
But everything we were told saidthat yeah, we were siblings and
we went under this assumptionfor about eight years and we met
(14:03):
once and we're Facebook friendsand we would email back and
forth and we had you know, anice acquaintance relationship.
And when 23andme and Ancestrycame out, we discovered that
we're not actually halfsiblings.
But in an interesting twist,both of us believe we found our
(14:26):
donors in the same month.
Different men.
And we believe that we foundthem.
He has attempted contact withhis donor and I have not, mostly
out of my own fear and concernabout what that relationship
(14:46):
will be or not be.
But as it turns out, I have notfound any donor-siblings.
(14:53):
Lily not asking you to speak for any of your siblings at all,
your brother and sister, butyou've mentioned that your
sister has met and has adifferent relationship with a
couple of her donor siblings.
So I'm interested in yourexperience- you may not have
curiosities or may not want tocontact your donor, but do they
feel differently and how dothose conversations then go at
(15:14):
home if you're all sort oftalking about that or thinking
about that together?
Lilly (15:19):
It's interesting, we're all kind of reaching an age
where it's definitely more partof the conversation, where the
sibling rivalries becoming areally close friendship and we
can have these deepconversations about the
struggles that we've faced allbeing donor children.
So until recently I didn't evenrealize, my older brother had
(15:41):
gone through a lot of the samestruggles with identity and not
telling people about our parentsand kind of having to hide that
major part of us.
And I'm also learning from mysister going to meet her
half-siblings that she does havean urge to understand where
she's coming from and theseconnections between her and her
half siblings and how she becamethe person she is.
(16:04):
And I think it's just adifferent drive for each and
every one of us.
I've kind of been up and downwhether I want to meet my donors
and my siblings, my brother hasnever really had a huge urge
that I know of to meet hisbiological relatives versus my
little sister seems to have areally large urge to do that.
So it's just so different foreach and every one of us.
(16:26):
So it's interesting to see thecontrast.
Emily (16:28):
Yeah.
So I'm, I am interested, I wentthrough a formal process of like
requesting information for mydonor from the clinic and had
steps that I could take.
And so it was something that Iwas able to think about and plan
for for a number of years andemotionally prepare myself for.
When we think about anonymousdonors or unknown donors now,
(16:50):
you both have the experiences ofthat no longer necessarily can
remain unknown or anonymousanymore.
I would love your thoughts onwhat these DNA testing sites and
the new technology that's outthere in these websites.
What does that mean for peoplegrowing up now?
Can anybody truly be ananonymous donor anymore?
(17:12):
And is that a good thing?
Lilly (17:13):
I would say that there was a period of my life where I
really hated the fact that I wasdonor conceived and I was doing
all this research, looking intoam I like, messed up because I
had donor parents or gay moms orwhatever.
And I started looking at thesepeople who really heavily
(17:35):
believe that sperm donationshould never be anonymous and
that's something that I stand bytoday.
I'm sure that that opinion willshift a little bit with time,
but as of right now I think thatyou should as a human, have the
right to know your roots andknow why you are the way you
(17:58):
are, what health problems youmight have, and just even have
the name and a face to puttogether as opposed to a blank
in your life, which is a hugepart of your life.
Jamie (18:09):
So I liked what Emily had to say about that.
She had the opportunity to planfor this, to build to this, and
you knew that there was an endgame.
When you turned 18 you had thisoption.
This could be a possibility.
I feel like I grew up verydifferently because I was under
(18:31):
the belief that there was nopossibility and I had to accept
that in order to get through it.
And then DNA testing came alongand I didn't really believe that
it would make a difference.
And I delayed doing it for quitea while because I didn't want
(18:52):
this last possibility to notwork out.
And so when I did do the testingand decided to go whole hog into
it.
And I put this weird deadline onmyself that I had to contact him
before I turned 31 and I didnot.
I wrote most of my letter onFebruary 5th, the day before my
(19:15):
birthday, and then I justcouldn't send it.
But DNA testing changedeverything for many people.
They're working with second andthird cousins and working
backwards.
And I think that is this levelof dedication and perseverance
that many of us have had becausewe continue to think about this
for years.
I joined every registry I couldfind as soon as I had a computer
(19:40):
that worked to go on theinternet and thankfully my mom
was very supportive in all ofthat.
I think that there is no futurefor anonymous donation with the
technology that is now in ourhands.
Emily (19:57):
Yeah, it feels like a lot is just changing just from legal
protections.
I understand the logic for along time of having anonymous
donors was in large part becauseof that muddy uncertainty around
parentage rights and custodyrights and as more and more
people were using surrogates,egg donors, sperm donors, you
(20:20):
know all of that was happening.
There was this belief that wehave to protect ourselves and so
the best way to do that or thequickest way to do that is to
say no contact ever period, signthis contract.
Jamie (20:29):
I think all of that is absolutely true.
I think that anonymous donationplayed a very key part of family
building in the eighties andnineties because there were such
visible examples of the courtssiding against LGBT parents.
(20:51):
I have a really closerelationship with my mom and I
understand why she did it.
It was the only option that wasfeasible at the time.
She wishes that she didn't haveto do it.
She thinks that she should havemade a different choice, but I
(21:11):
know it's the only choice thatshe had.
All I'm saying is that with somany things that have changed
like you were pointing out,there is no need for it anymore.
That is not to say that peoplecan't have ID release donors or
open donors.
I'm specifically talking about100% anonymous donation with no
(21:36):
option to contact in the future.
Emily (21:39):
Lilly, have you talked with your parents about why they
chose or was that the onlychoice available for them for an
anonymous donor?
How are those conversationsgone, cause I know sometimes
those can be kind of tricky tonavigate with parents.
Lilly (21:53):
Unfortunately I really haven't.
I'm not sure the exactmotivation for having an
anonymous donor.
I assume it was probably aconvenience or to ensure that
it's the easiest route withlegalities and such.
I'm not sure how much theyconsidered the long term effects
of the anonymity or if it's evena thought now because there
(22:16):
haven't been enoughconversations, unfortunately.
I'm sure that'll changethroughout life, but it's still
a very fresh thing to be takingcontrol of my identity as
opposed to having everythingbeing done for me.
Everything else has been chosen,from the anonymous donor to
getting to know my father.
It wasn't me who reached out tomy father.
(22:38):
It was my mother who was on allthese registries.
It wasn't within my grasp.
It wasn't something that I wasallowed to try and meet and talk
to people.
So it's very fresh and new to beable to take charge of that.
And so I'm hoping that there wasgood motivation, but who knows.
I'm going to love my parents nomatter what, but maybe there
(23:00):
wasn't enough thoughtbeforehand.
Jamie (23:02):
I like, and I want to build off of what Lilly was just
saying about all of yourdecisions up to a certain point
being made by someone else and Ithink that that is a huge thing
that parents need to thinkabout.
They're not making just adecision about their own
parenting future.
They're making decisions abouttheir child's agency within
(23:28):
their own lives in the future.
Emily (23:30):
I believe that the overwhelming majority of people,
when deciding to become parents,from the beginning want the best
for their kids.
You know, as someone who has asperm donor and was able to
contact him, I'm grateful that Ihad, as Jamie as you're saying,
that agency and that it wassomething I was able to decide
(23:52):
on a nd control.
I think as much as parents, prospective parents are able to
allow that agency and futuredecision making to be in the
hands of their potentialoffspring, I think that's
fantastic when that option isavailable and I think that that
should be pursued as much aspossible.
I think it does get reallyinteresting when we think about
donor siblings and the more muchlooser regulations around
(24:17):
contacting them prior to turning18, than say if you had an open
identity donor.
And similarly if you have aknown donor, there's different
ages a nd different points inone's life in which your parents
kind of make the decision of,where are we going for a play
date?
You know, what family memberwe're g oing t o visit, how
often uncle so-and-so's allowedto visit, things like that.
(24:39):
And at what point that decisionmaking should then be into the
hands of the queerspawn youth tobe determining levels of
relationships, types ofrelationships with donors and
especially donor siblings.
I think it all gets reallycomplicated and every family is
different and every queerspawnis different.
But as much as able to be in theinformed consensual decision
(25:02):
making of the correspondindividual, the better.
Jamie (25:07):
I think that perspective parents need to question
themselves a bit about whattheir motivation is regarding
why they're choosing the type ofdonor that they're choosing.
And I think if people reallyinterrogate their own motives,
we're going to move away fromanonymous donation because I
don't think that any parentwants to take away their kid's
(25:32):
future choice
Emily (25:34):
As queerspawn, I feel like one of the gifts my parents
gave me by being out andchoosing to form the family the
way that they did is that I havea pretty expansive sense of what
is family and who can be familyand the role that biology, in my
experience, does not play inthat, just because of how I was
raised.
(25:54):
And I think that was a step forthem because they were both
raised by married heterosexualparents in a nuclear family.
That was not their experience.
And so creating family in a newexpansive way and allowing
family to be defined expansivelywas new.
I'm the first generation in myfamily experiencing that.
How do you think being donorconceived has colored your own
(26:17):
understanding of of family?
Lilly (26:18):
I think that when you are trying to aim towards this
nuclear family as a model ofwhat is good and what is to be
aimed for, it's such a highstandard and it really closes
you off to the beauty of thepeople around you that aren't
biologically related to you andI've noticed as a correlation
that as I began to accept myfamily for the chaos that it is,
(26:45):
that's when I began to become agood friend and make my friends
into family.
Jamie (26:50):
I don't necessarily see my donor as part of my family
because I've never met him.
Whether we choose to have thatperson in our life is different
from whether it matters that weknow who they are or matters,
(27:12):
that we have the choice to findout who they are.
Emily (27:16):
Any advice for queerspawn listening who are somewhere on
their own journeys?
Any advice for navigating thatjourney for themselves?
Lilly (27:26):
I'd say that it's really easy to get caught up in the
distant what if I find thisperson, what if I form a
connection, this family?
with this person that's sodistant and so mysterious to me.
And I think it's easy to getcaught up in that and forget
about the family that'ssupporting you in this moment
(27:47):
because they are so much moreimportant than this person who
may never be a part of your lifeis.
And as much as much as it willbe awesome, potentially, to have
a good response from this personand maybe introduce them to your
life, the people that arealready in your life are the
ones who you should be liftingup cause they are lifting you up
(28:08):
and that's the family.
Whether it's biological orwhether it's by association,
that's the family that mattersin this moment.
Jamie (28:16):
My advice would be both for queerspawn and their parents
that have used donor conception.
I think that it's reallyimportant to start talking about
these things.
I think transparency is the mostbeautiful thing that you can
bring to your family.
We need to be talking aboutthese things as a family and we
(28:36):
need to be talking about thesethings with our parents because
oftentimes we try to protect ourparents' feelings because it's
something that we've been kindof conditioned to do in order to
protect the queer family andit's absolutely okay for us to
be searching if we want tosearch and not searching if we
(28:59):
don't want to search.
And our parents should be ourbiggest advocates in that they
should be advocating for theirkids to have agency and teaching
their kids to use their agency.
Having these discussions from asearly in age as possible just
brings this into thequeerspawn's story and narrative
(29:22):
about themselves and helps themunderstand their own identities
and the things that they'refeeling.
And we would love to havesomebody to talk to about it who
is nonjudgmental, non shamingand who lets us explore feelings
that we're having.
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