November 19, 2019 • 31 mins
National Adoption Month continues! This episode features a special live taping of Inside Out LGBT Radio. Activist, author, and trans-racially adopted adult child of LGBTQ+ parents, Tony Hynes, hosts a powerful and honest discussion about trans-racial adoption, ethics, and adoptee experiences. He is joined by Schai, adopted internationally by a white single parent, and Beth, a white adoptive parent to two children of color. This powerful and raw conversation is not to be missed.
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Episode Transcript
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Emily (00:04):
November is National Adoption Month.
On the last episode we mentionedthe wonderful writer, activist
(00:25):
and educator, Tony Hynes.
He recently was a guest host onInside Out LGBT Talk Radio
discussing interracial andtran-sracial adoption.
For this episode of OutspokenVoices, we have some highlights
from that really, reallyfantastic discussion.
Enjoy.
Tony (00:45):
Welcome to Inside Out LGBT Radio.
Inside Out LGBT Radio is broughtto you live every single Tuesday
from 2:00 PM to 3:00 PM Easternstandard time here on WPFW which
is 89.3 FM here on the EastCoast and the Washington D.C.
Area and we can also be streamedalive by going to
(01:06):
www.wpfwfm.org.
Inside Out LGBT Radio show is aprogram that looks at everything
from pop culture to politics inanything that falls in between
and we look at that through anLGBTQ+ lens.
I'm your host for today's show,Tony Hynes, and we'll be joined
later by Schai Schairer, aninterracial adoptee, spoken word
(01:29):
artist, and criminal justicereform advocate.
As well as Beth Wheeler, apsychotherapist, licensed
clinical social worker,diversity trainer and mom to two
African American boys.
In today's topic, we are here totalk about adoption and more
specifically interracialadoption, a practice that refers
to parents adopting children atdifferent rates from their own,
(01:51):
but as widely defined today isthe practice of white parents
adopting minority children.
The first recorded case ofinterracial adoption took place
in 1948 at the time a whitecouple took an African American
infant in the foster careadopting her when she was nine.
In America where Jim Crow lawsstill personified race relations
in the country, interracialadoption was a rare and
(02:13):
potentially dangerous processboth for minority children and
the parents who dared to adoptthem.
However, in the next decade, thepractice would rise
exponentially as white adoptiveparents became more comfortable
adopting babies who did notshare their skin complexion.
Still, the babies they did adoptoften came from outside of the
United States and if they wereminorities, they were often from
(02:35):
Asian countries.
Adopting children from adifferent cultural background
originated for a variety ofreasons, but began increasing in
popularity due to therestricting of available white
orphans coupled with the rise oforphaned Korean children after
the Korean war.
This phenomenon allowed whiteadoptive parents to tap into the
unique difference that came withbeing an interracial adoptive
parent while avoiding the stigmathat came with adopting an
(02:58):
African American or otherminority child.
Despite the rising rates ofinternational adoptions,
domestic adoption of minoritychildren in the fifties and
sixties was still a relativelyrare occurrence.
Among the earliest examples ofintentional domestic interracial
adoption was the Indian AdoptionProject, which happened between
1958 and 1967.
(03:20):
The project was a collaborationbetween the Bureau of Indian
Affairs and the Child WelfareLeague of America and was
designed to remove any childrenfrom their families on
reservations in an effort toassimilate them into mainstream
society.
In both domestic andinternational interracial
adoption during the era, thegoals were often to produce a
colorblind home that wouldnurture an environment in which
(03:42):
adoptees left behind the customsand identity of their
pre-adoptive homes in favor ofadopting the ideologies,
identities and customs of theirwhite adoptive parents.
After Loving vs Virginia madeinterracial marriage in the
United States legal in 1967,interracial adoptions of African
American and minority childrenstarted to become more common
then in the adoption world.
(04:03):
By 1972 the rising numbers ofAfrican Americans adopted into
white homes caught the attentionof the National Association of
Black Social Workers, who cameout against the practice stating
that they were taking a"vehementstand against the placement of
black children in white homesfor any reason".
Calling interracial adoptionunnatural artificial,
unnecessary and proof thatAfrican-Americans continued to
(04:26):
be assigned"shadow status".
In the following decades,several adoption agencies would
follow the lead of the NABSW,making it more difficult for
white adoptive parents to adoptAfrican American children.
Many prospective white parentswere upset by the proclamation
and its subsequent impactasserting that they were being
racially discriminated againstby certain agencies who shared
(04:47):
that sentiment of the NABSW.
As a result, the MultiethnicPlacement Act of 1994 and it's
followup, the Inter-ethnicPlacement Act of 1996, outlawed
preferential placements andadoption practices on the basis
of race and other factors.
Today, 40% of adoptive childrenare of a different race, culture
or ethnicity than both of theiradoptive parents or their sole
(05:09):
parent if there's only oneparent in the household.
Same sex couples, unable toadopt during the first recorded
cases of interracial adoption,comprise a substantial
percentage of interracialadoption parents today.
In fact, same sex couples aresix times more likely to adopt
than heterosexual partners,culminating in the creation of
many homes that are bothinterracial and same-sex headed
(05:30):
households.
The infusion of LGBTQ familiesinto the interracial adoption
conversation has produced newconversations around the
intersecting identities ofchildren growing up in these
homes as well as the live livesof parents who deal with the
roadblocks, discrimination andeveryday occurrences that come
with being a same sex parentswho minority child.
We're joined by Shai Schairer aninterracial adoptee and criminal
(05:53):
justice reform advocate andfounder of F.I.S.T, an
organization devoted tohighlighting the plight of women
in the criminal justice system.
And Beth Wheeler, a licensedclinical social worker,
psychotherapist, diversitytrainer and mom to two African
American boys.
Thank you both for being heretoday.
(06:13):
So Schai, I like to start withyou.
Can you take us through a bit ofyour journey?
Schai (06:19):
So I was adopted from Haiti in 1989 by a single white
mother.
Then in 1994 we adopted mylittle brother who was also from
Haiti.
So it was just the two of us whogrew up in the same house with
my mom and then life was prettynormal I guess for an adoptee.
(06:45):
And then when I turned 26, mybrother found me through
ancestry DNA.
And so then things startedgetting a little weird to say
the least.
Tony (06:59):
Can you go into more detail about that weird part?
Schai (07:03):
It kind of made me realize how much I hadn't really
been dealing with when it cameto my adoption and the trauma
that I hadn't really tackledwhen it came to my adoption.
It basically solidified the factthat like, I already knew that
there was a void and itbasically highlighted that for
(07:23):
me.
Like growing up I would alwayssay, mom, something is missing.
Someone is missing.
There's somebody out there andshe didn't have any information
for me so she couldn't doanything about it.
But my brother finding me justbasically highlighted that.
And basically it showed me thatthe politics of adoption are
(07:43):
just crap, because we're fullsiblings, potentially twins, but
our paperwork and our birthrecords are completely
different.
So that goes to show that therewas somebody in the industry in
the situation that completelydiscombobulated everything and
(08:04):
made it impossible.
We weren't supposed to find eachother.
You know what I mean?
We weren't supposed toreconnect.
And the fact that somebody,whether it was for money, what
it was for moral purposes,whatever their reason was, the
fact that somebody had that muchcontrol over two people's lives
who had absolutely no say inwhat was going on in their life.
(08:24):
I feel like that's, that's alittle crazy.
Tony (08:29):
Crazy in what way?
Schai (08:32):
When it comes to the adoption, I don't believe
siblings should be separated,period.
Right.
And then, God forbid they'retwins, they definitely shouldn't
be separated.
So the fact my brother and Iwere separated and granted like
I love the mom I grew up with.
I love my mom to death.
(08:52):
I love his parents.
He loves his parents, you know?
But the fact that we wereseparated and we didn't get the
chance to spend that timegrowing up together, we were
robbed of that and we shouldn'thave been robbed at that.
So that part is crazy.
Tony (09:03):
Right, right.
And how do you think that hasshaped your experience as an
adult now as an adult who's aninterracial adoptee as well?
Schai (09:13):
Well it's kind of jaded my perception on interracial
adoption.
I'm not gonna sit here and say Idon't agree with adoption as a
whole, but I don't agree withthe politics behind it at all.
And I think people need to takemore into account about adoptees
and I don't think that's goingon.
I think adoptive parents and whoare usually white people are
(09:36):
made to look like saviors whenthey should be made to look like
parents.
And I feel like adoptees aremade it look like hopeless
victims when like at the end ofthe day, like I didn't need to
be saved, you know, I justneeded to be loved and who's to
say I wouldn't have been equallyas loved in Haiti?
Like who's to say that?
Like, my birth mom didn't evenwant to get me up.
(09:56):
We don't know.
So it's like there's certainthings that I feel like need to
be fixed within the system ofadoption.
Tony (10:06):
What would you say to people who say that you're kind
of lucky to be able to be in theUnited States and not have to
grow up with your birth parentsfrom Haiti who might've been
going through difficult times?
Schai (10:20):
I think that I would tell them to check their privilege
because what is lucky, you knowwhat I mean?
Like, yeah, don't get me wrong.
Like the financial aspect.
Yes, I'm beyond blessed.
My mother has afforded me everyopportunity possible.
I got an excellent education.
(10:41):
I'm living my dream by buildingmy own business, fighting for
women within the correctionalfacilities.
I'm able to be a comfortable,dominant lesbian.
I probably wouldn't have beenable to do in Haiti.
Right.
But still, not being able togrow up in Haiti, I got stripped
of my culture.
There are two languages that Ihave no idea how to speak.
(11:07):
I didn't choose this life.
This life was chosen for me andthat's not necessarily fair.
I'm not saying that my mom waswrong in adopting me.
I'm saying that the system waswrong and how they went about
things.
Tony (11:19):
Thank you.
Thank you for sharing that.
Beth.
I wanted to move on to you aswell.
What was your journey like, bothto adoption and also also in
general, if you feel comfortablementioning some of those things?
Beth (11:38):
Well, first of all, I just want to say I will never ever
tire of having the privilege oflistening to adoptees to speak.
I feel like this is first ofall, an honor that you asked me
and a privilege.
I get to be here with the two ofyou.
And I've learned more fromadoptees and from the few first
(12:05):
and birth families that havebeen able to speak.
And I've been able to hear aboutwhat it is to parent across race
and what it is to parent anadoptee, than I've learned
anywhere else in the world.
So I will always sit and bequiet and listen because there's
so much for me to learn.
So that's the first thing I haveto say.
The journey.
(12:25):
So I came out when I was 16.
Don't worry, I'm not going to goall through all those years
because I'm 52 now.
So that would be a long time.
When I finally realized that Ireally wanted kids, I knew that
it was gonna take some planningand preparation because being a
single sex family, the questionis how do you get that sperm and
(12:49):
make a baby happen?
So we went to Rainbow FamiliesDC and at the time it was
lesbian services and did theirMaybe Baby class, which helped
us learn what we needed to knowto biologically have a child.
We tried, I tried to getpregnant for a number of years
and even though intellectually Iwanted to adopt, in my body I
(13:11):
wanted to be able to be pregnantand see what that was like.
I didn't even care if it was myown kid.
I just wanted to feel what itwas like to be pregnant.
That did not come to pass.
So after doing some grieving ofthat, my partner and I at the
time decided that we would movetowards adoption.
At the time we moved to workwith an organization that then
(13:32):
also asked us the question, areyou open to adopting across
race?
And we had big, hugeconversations about that as two
white women, would we do justiceto raising kids of color?
Is it even fair for us to raisekids of color?
Who are we to think that wecould do that?
And in the end, after doing alot of reflection, we thought,
(13:53):
well, we were willing to do thework to be as conscious as we
possibly could be.
And so we then said, okay, wellwe'd rather have a kid being
raised in a white household ofconscious parents than
non-conscious parents.
And so we then made the choiceto adopt and then we did all of
the process of what it takes toadopt domestically.
(14:15):
We wanted to adopt domesticallybecause we want it to be out as
a couple and we didn't want tolie about who we were.
And at that time, internationaladoption, in most of the places
you had to only have one personadopt.
You couldn't be a couple thatwas the same sex couple.
So we weren't willing to dothat.
So we adopted domestically andwe also were open to adopting
(14:39):
kids of color.
And we also knew that we didn'tneed to go anywhere else.
We could be here.
There are plenty of kids thatneed homes here.
So then we went through theprocess and we, after about a
year and a half of waiting, webrought our first son home and
he's now 12 and then after aboutanother year and a half or two
(15:02):
in that process, we did theprocess again and then we
brought our second child homethree years later.
So he's now nine.
Tony (15:10):
Excellent.
And what's something you wouldtell to people who haven't
adopted that you think theymight want to know about
adopting from the parent side ofit and what that's like for
someone who hasn't necessarilythought about the process?
Beth (15:32):
Well, I think there's a few things.
One is that just as Schai wastalking, one of the things I,
you know, I wanted to have ababy and um, I knew that
adoption was complex.
I had no clue how complex itwas.
And I also had no idea that Iwas actually participating in,
in, in an industry that oftenserved and was made to serve
(15:54):
adoptive parents, particularlywhite adoptive parents at the
expense of, and sometimes harmto people of color, first
families and adoptees.
So I don't think I really had acomprehension of the systemic
nature of adoption and the kindof white supremacist nature of
how it was created.
(16:16):
So what I would say topre-adoptive parents is you have
to know that you're gettinginvolved in an industry and that
in that process you have to payattention to if you're going to
adopt, who are you using forthat adoption process?
How ethical is thatorganization?
Are they really serving theneeds of first and birth
(16:38):
families and adoptees?
Or are they really focusing onyour needs?
And if they're really focusingon your needs, they're not doing
the right job.
That really it's about the needsof the first and birth family
and the adoptee to be born.
And I think the other thing I'velearned a lot from first mothers
that I've spoken to is that inmy mind I was like, Oh well
(16:59):
they're making this choice.
And many first families andfirst mothers that I've spoken
to said they didn't really feellike they had much of a choice
or later they realize that theyweren't given all the
information that they needed tomake a solid decision.
So they felt somehow coercedinto it or moved into it because
(17:20):
of lack of information.
And that piece, I didn't knoweither.
So I would just say be reallywatchful of the organizations
that you're working with andmake sure that they're doing
justice to the triad.
Tony (17:33):
What are signs that you saw when you were adopting that
told you that the organizationsor organization that you were
working with was one of theorganizations that got it, that
understood some of the thingsthat you're talking about.
Beth (17:48):
The first thing that we did of course, we were more
selfishly oriented at the time,as most people I think are
before they have children, wewere thinking about ourselves,
but we liked the organizationthat we went to because they
were really good in dealing withLGBT families.
And we wanted to make sure thatwhoever the first mother was
that was gonna choose us,ideally she would be counseled
(18:13):
appropriately about LGBTfamilies.
So we originally went to thatorganization for that reason.
We also knew that they weregoing to be speaking with first
mothers and first fathers ifthey were present around
different kinds of families.
And that we wanted an openadoption and we wanted a
relationship if at all possible.
So we also were very clear thatwe wanted to have some kind of
(18:36):
dynamic relationship if she wasat all willing to have a
relationship with us, not tohave a closed situation where
our child wouldn't be able tohave access to her or to their
first family.
So we knew that thisorganization was open to that
and was going to be willing tohave that conversation and see
if it was at all possible.
(18:58):
The other thing I would also sayto pre-adoptive parents is to do
your own work around your ownracial identity, particularly
white adoptive parents aboutyour own experience, who you are
as a white person, what's yourexperiences across race and
really ask yourself some veryhonest questions about what kind
(19:22):
of work you are doing or arewilling to do for the sake of
yourself and for your children.
Tony (19:28):
I'm going to switch it over to Schai in direct response
to that.
Schai, what do you think whiteadoptive parents need to be
doing to prepare themselves tohave minority children?
Schai (19:39):
I think actually Beth really tackled that pretty well.
I think adoptive parents need tobe honest with themselves and
really check themselves andreally have the real
conversation with themselves andwith family members and with
their community.
Is this something I can take on?
Because it's not easy.
(20:00):
It's not.
And if you're not ready to deal,like I feel like a lot of white
parents and white adoptiveparents adopt because they're
fascinated with black culture,right?
Because let's be real blackculture's amazing, right?
But they want the positives ofblack culture and they don't
understand black culture is alsovery ugly.
You know what I'm saying?
Like black culture also has verydark, dark things about it.
(20:23):
Like black depression, blackmental health period, like
across the board, right.
Black masculinity, blackfemininity.
That's not, those aren't theugly parts.
Don't get me wrong.
Those are not the ugly parts,but those are still very intense
parts and they can be ugly partsof it.
You know what I'm saying?
Beth (20:44):
I was just thinking, Schai, with that, because of
racism I think and because ofwhite supremacy it becomes that
shadow side that some of thosethings are seen as negative or
not so great.
It's really because of racismand what racism puts on black
people.
Schai (21:02):
Yeah, I would agree with that.
Tony (21:03):
Schai as an adoptee, what are some things that you think
adoptees face growing up thatpeople who are not at adoptees
and might not feel growing up?
Schai (21:13):
So I was kind of prepared for this, but I wasn't prepared
for this.
Like this might get a littleemotional right here.
I feel like love is not enough.
You know what I mean?
Like, like I'm tired of hearingadoptive parents in general
saying, Oh, but I love you.
(21:37):
I've given you everything that Icould give you.
Love is not enough.
You know, like I need to feelemotionally safe.
I need to know that even when Iact my worst, you're not gonna
give up, give me up, you know,cause I'm going to push you and
I'm gonna push you again.
I'm gonna push you even harder.
I need to know that every singletime you're going to come back
and love me stronger, becausesomebody has already given up on
me once, you know what I mean?
(21:57):
And so like I need you to watchhow you word things.
Like there's certain things thatyou just do not say to an
adoptee.
I don't care how old we get.
I don't care how experienced weare, there's just certain things
you do not say to an adoptee.
Tony (22:13):
And do you have an example of that for listeners at home?
Schai (22:16):
Like, you should feel lucky that you were adopted.
You should feel lucky somebodytook you in.
Like when people tell me that Ishould feel lucky or I'm not
appreciative of my adoptiveparents or anything like that.
Like what do you mean I'm notappreciative?
Why should I be appreciative?
I didn't ask for this.
What do I owe them?
(22:37):
I don't owe my mother anything.
You know what I'm saying?
The only thing she owed me wasto love me and to show me that
she would never give up on me.
And that she would protect me.
No, what I'm saying, I don't oweher anything.
I was a kid.
I didn't ask to be adopted.
Beth (22:58):
You know what I was thinking about, Schai, was when
you were talking about you don'towe your adoptive mom anything.
I think a lot of times what I'veheard adoptees say, and you
actually as well, I've heard yousay is the bind that you've
often felt yourself in ofloyalty of mixed loyalty.
(23:18):
Like is it okay for me to lovemy adoptive parents and miss my
biological parents?
Can I talk about my biologicalparents with my adoptive
parents?
Is it going to upset them?
And the level and the number ofadoptees that I've heard speak
about this problem and dilemmaof feeling like they need to
(23:41):
take care of their adoptiveparents.
And you know, I think that's ofwhat I heard you saying just
now.
Schai (23:47):
That's so important.
And like I feel like adopteesare oftentimes, they're loyal to
a fault.
And they look out for otherpeople before they look out for
themselves.
And they will emotionally gointo past the cup being dry.
The couple who have cracks in itand adoptees are still going and
(24:10):
going and going and just likebegging people to love them and
really showing up with the bestthat they have.
So in all of my relationships,with my relationship with my
mom, with like intimaterelationships, I'm always like,
all I need is your emotionalsafety.
I just need to know I'memotionally safe with you.
(24:30):
I don't need the financialsafety, I don't need the
physical safety.
I can protect myself, but I needto know that emotionally I am
safe with you because I feellike that's something adoptees
never really received.
Tony (24:40):
And what is emotional safety?
Schai (24:42):
Like for example, like I was saying earlier, I need to
know that you're not gonna getmad at me and you're just going
to roll out.
You know what I mean?
Adoptees have that hugeabandonment issues.
And don't get me wrong, likewhen it comes to intimate
relationships, somerelationships just don't work
out, you know?
But I'm talking about like theminor stuff, the petty stuff.
Beth (25:02):
I just want to add as a parent, my kids both in
different ways, all kids test usas parents.
That's just what they do.
That's what they're supposed todo.
But part of the challenge isthat what I see is that my kids
test and they test to see if I'mgoing to stick around.
So to what you're saying, thereare a number of experiences
(25:23):
where my kids will say certainthings.
Well, if you were my birthmother, then dot, dot, dot, or
if you were black dot, dot dotand I think they're looking and
testing to see, number one, ifI'm going to stick around and
number two, how am I going torespond and am I going to freak
out or am I going to go rightthere into that conversation
with them?
Which I will do because I needto make sure that they know I'm
(25:46):
there and I'm not goinganywhere.
And I also need to understandthat at the core of adoption is
loss.
And as an adoptive parent, Icannot ignore that, as much as I
want to.
Somebody's joy is somebodyelse's loss and pain and that's
kind of at the root of adoption.
So for me, my joy of having mychildren is their birth mother's
(26:11):
pain and their pain of nothaving their biological mom.
Tony (26:15):
I think that that's a great point.
I think that this is an examplefor both adoptees and for
adoptive parents of what goes onwhen you're growing up as an
adoptee in your relationship toyour birth family sometimes.
And you might not feel connectedto them in some way.
And in other ways you might feelconnected to them in negative
ways that makes you feel badly,not just about your birth
(26:37):
parents per se, but about thegroup that they're attached to
as well racially.
And what do you do with thatitself and how do you combat
some of those negative feelingswithin yourself?
Not only about your birthfamily, but about groups of
people as well.
I think for, for adoptiveparents out there, and for
people that are thinking ofadopting, it's important to
(27:02):
remember first and foremost thatadoptees stories are their
stories and their narrativesfirst and foremost.
And is that their stories startbefore they ever step in the
home with their adoptiveparents.
And so the traumas that they'rebringing with them into their
(27:24):
new households are things thatare part of their identities.
And so it's important for us tohonor that as professionals, as
parents, as communities, butalso to recognize that there's
not blame necessarily onadoptive parents for that
(27:45):
trauma.
That there's not blame on birthmothers and birth fathers for
that trauma.
The trauma is just somethingthat simply exists and we have a
choice to make.
When that trauma happens, wehave the choice to address it.
We have the choice to deflectfrom it and we have the choice
to ignore it.
(28:05):
And I think we know which choiceout of those three is going to
help our kids.
And then our adults the most.
And I think this is what thisconversation is, is trying to
address in that way.
So I wanted to move on and toget, Beth and Schai, your final
thoughts on interracial adoptionin general.
(28:29):
Do you think from what we'vediscussed here from your lives,
is interracial adoptionsomething that is a positive or
negative as experienced orneither?
And should interracial adoptionbe a practice that continues?
Schai (28:48):
I personally do not necessarily agree with
interracial adoption.
And it is because like I saidearlier when we first started
the show, that I feel like whiteparents are put on a pedestal
that they don't deserve to beon, and the system does not
provide the parents the adequatetools needed to raise these
(29:12):
black children.
And I feel like black kids,whether they be interracial,
international or domestic, Ifeel like they're stripped of a
culture that they can never getback.
And, um, so for those reasons, Idon't necessarily agree with an
interracial adoption.
Beth (29:31):
I think I would say that in an ideal world, children
would be raised with theirbiological parents.
Given the fact that we live in aracist, classist, we can think
of every IST exists.
This system exists.
So therefore, how do you becomethe best possible interracial
adoptee family and what's thework that has to be done?
(29:55):
So I agree that ideally it wouldbe same race adoption if there
was adoption needed at all.
And if there is the need forinterracial adoption, I would
say, white parents do your work,do your work on race, do your
work on class, do your work onsexuality, do your work on
everything that exists so thatyou can do the work on behalf of
(30:19):
yourself and for your childrenso they can be as healthy with
as greatest self esteem aspossible.
November is National Adoption Month.
On the last episode we mentionedthe wonderful writer, activist
(00:25):
and educator, Tony Hynes.
He recently was a guest host onInside Out LGBT Talk Radio
discussing interracial andtran-sracial adoption.
For this episode of OutspokenVoices, we have some highlights
from that really, reallyfantastic discussion.
Enjoy.
Tony (00:45):
Welcome to Inside Out LGBT Radio.
Inside Out LGBT Radio is broughtto you live every single Tuesday
from 2:00 PM to 3:00 PM Easternstandard time here on WPFW which
is 89.3 FM here on the EastCoast and the Washington D.C.
Area and we can also be streamedalive by going to
(01:06):
www.wpfwfm.org.
Inside Out LGBT Radio show is aprogram that looks at everything
from pop culture to politics inanything that falls in between
and we look at that through anLGBTQ+ lens.
I'm your host for today's show,Tony Hynes, and we'll be joined
later by Schai Schairer, aninterracial adoptee, spoken word
(01:29):
artist, and criminal justicereform advocate.
As well as Beth Wheeler, apsychotherapist, licensed
clinical social worker,diversity trainer and mom to two
African American boys.
In today's topic, we are here totalk about adoption and more
specifically interracialadoption, a practice that refers
to parents adopting children atdifferent rates from their own,
(01:51):
but as widely defined today isthe practice of white parents
adopting minority children.
The first recorded case ofinterracial adoption took place
in 1948 at the time a whitecouple took an African American
infant in the foster careadopting her when she was nine.
In America where Jim Crow lawsstill personified race relations
in the country, interracialadoption was a rare and
(02:13):
potentially dangerous processboth for minority children and
the parents who dared to adoptthem.
However, in the next decade, thepractice would rise
exponentially as white adoptiveparents became more comfortable
adopting babies who did notshare their skin complexion.
Still, the babies they did adoptoften came from outside of the
United States and if they wereminorities, they were often from
(02:35):
Asian countries.
Adopting children from adifferent cultural background
originated for a variety ofreasons, but began increasing in
popularity due to therestricting of available white
orphans coupled with the rise oforphaned Korean children after
the Korean war.
This phenomenon allowed whiteadoptive parents to tap into the
unique difference that came withbeing an interracial adoptive
parent while avoiding the stigmathat came with adopting an
(02:58):
African American or otherminority child.
Despite the rising rates ofinternational adoptions,
domestic adoption of minoritychildren in the fifties and
sixties was still a relativelyrare occurrence.
Among the earliest examples ofintentional domestic interracial
adoption was the Indian AdoptionProject, which happened between
1958 and 1967.
(03:20):
The project was a collaborationbetween the Bureau of Indian
Affairs and the Child WelfareLeague of America and was
designed to remove any childrenfrom their families on
reservations in an effort toassimilate them into mainstream
society.
In both domestic andinternational interracial
adoption during the era, thegoals were often to produce a
colorblind home that wouldnurture an environment in which
(03:42):
adoptees left behind the customsand identity of their
pre-adoptive homes in favor ofadopting the ideologies,
identities and customs of theirwhite adoptive parents.
After Loving vs Virginia madeinterracial marriage in the
United States legal in 1967,interracial adoptions of African
American and minority childrenstarted to become more common
then in the adoption world.
(04:03):
By 1972 the rising numbers ofAfrican Americans adopted into
white homes caught the attentionof the National Association of
Black Social Workers, who cameout against the practice stating
that they were taking a"vehementstand against the placement of
black children in white homesfor any reason".
Calling interracial adoptionunnatural artificial,
unnecessary and proof thatAfrican-Americans continued to
(04:26):
be assigned"shadow status".
In the following decades,several adoption agencies would
follow the lead of the NABSW,making it more difficult for
white adoptive parents to adoptAfrican American children.
Many prospective white parentswere upset by the proclamation
and its subsequent impactasserting that they were being
racially discriminated againstby certain agencies who shared
(04:47):
that sentiment of the NABSW.
As a result, the MultiethnicPlacement Act of 1994 and it's
followup, the Inter-ethnicPlacement Act of 1996, outlawed
preferential placements andadoption practices on the basis
of race and other factors.
Today, 40% of adoptive childrenare of a different race, culture
or ethnicity than both of theiradoptive parents or their sole
(05:09):
parent if there's only oneparent in the household.
Same sex couples, unable toadopt during the first recorded
cases of interracial adoption,comprise a substantial
percentage of interracialadoption parents today.
In fact, same sex couples aresix times more likely to adopt
than heterosexual partners,culminating in the creation of
many homes that are bothinterracial and same-sex headed
(05:30):
households.
The infusion of LGBTQ familiesinto the interracial adoption
conversation has produced newconversations around the
intersecting identities ofchildren growing up in these
homes as well as the live livesof parents who deal with the
roadblocks, discrimination andeveryday occurrences that come
with being a same sex parentswho minority child.
We're joined by Shai Schairer aninterracial adoptee and criminal
(05:53):
justice reform advocate andfounder of F.I.S.T, an
organization devoted tohighlighting the plight of women
in the criminal justice system.
And Beth Wheeler, a licensedclinical social worker,
psychotherapist, diversitytrainer and mom to two African
American boys.
Thank you both for being heretoday.
(06:13):
So Schai, I like to start withyou.
Can you take us through a bit ofyour journey?
Schai (06:19):
So I was adopted from Haiti in 1989 by a single white
mother.
Then in 1994 we adopted mylittle brother who was also from
Haiti.
So it was just the two of us whogrew up in the same house with
my mom and then life was prettynormal I guess for an adoptee.
(06:45):
And then when I turned 26, mybrother found me through
ancestry DNA.
And so then things startedgetting a little weird to say
the least.
Tony (06:59):
Can you go into more detail about that weird part?
Schai (07:03):
It kind of made me realize how much I hadn't really
been dealing with when it cameto my adoption and the trauma
that I hadn't really tackledwhen it came to my adoption.
It basically solidified the factthat like, I already knew that
there was a void and itbasically highlighted that for
(07:23):
me.
Like growing up I would alwayssay, mom, something is missing.
Someone is missing.
There's somebody out there andshe didn't have any information
for me so she couldn't doanything about it.
But my brother finding me justbasically highlighted that.
And basically it showed me thatthe politics of adoption are
(07:43):
just crap, because we're fullsiblings, potentially twins, but
our paperwork and our birthrecords are completely
different.
So that goes to show that therewas somebody in the industry in
the situation that completelydiscombobulated everything and
(08:04):
made it impossible.
We weren't supposed to find eachother.
You know what I mean?
We weren't supposed toreconnect.
And the fact that somebody,whether it was for money, what
it was for moral purposes,whatever their reason was, the
fact that somebody had that muchcontrol over two people's lives
who had absolutely no say inwhat was going on in their life.
(08:24):
I feel like that's, that's alittle crazy.
Tony (08:29):
Crazy in what way?
Schai (08:32):
When it comes to the adoption, I don't believe
siblings should be separated,period.
Right.
And then, God forbid they'retwins, they definitely shouldn't
be separated.
So the fact my brother and Iwere separated and granted like
I love the mom I grew up with.
I love my mom to death.
(08:52):
I love his parents.
He loves his parents, you know?
But the fact that we wereseparated and we didn't get the
chance to spend that timegrowing up together, we were
robbed of that and we shouldn'thave been robbed at that.
So that part is crazy.
Tony (09:03):
Right, right.
And how do you think that hasshaped your experience as an
adult now as an adult who's aninterracial adoptee as well?
Schai (09:13):
Well it's kind of jaded my perception on interracial
adoption.
I'm not gonna sit here and say Idon't agree with adoption as a
whole, but I don't agree withthe politics behind it at all.
And I think people need to takemore into account about adoptees
and I don't think that's goingon.
I think adoptive parents and whoare usually white people are
(09:36):
made to look like saviors whenthey should be made to look like
parents.
And I feel like adoptees aremade it look like hopeless
victims when like at the end ofthe day, like I didn't need to
be saved, you know, I justneeded to be loved and who's to
say I wouldn't have been equallyas loved in Haiti?
Like who's to say that?
Like, my birth mom didn't evenwant to get me up.
(09:56):
We don't know.
So it's like there's certainthings that I feel like need to
be fixed within the system ofadoption.
Tony (10:06):
What would you say to people who say that you're kind
of lucky to be able to be in theUnited States and not have to
grow up with your birth parentsfrom Haiti who might've been
going through difficult times?
Schai (10:20):
I think that I would tell them to check their privilege
because what is lucky, you knowwhat I mean?
Like, yeah, don't get me wrong.
Like the financial aspect.
Yes, I'm beyond blessed.
My mother has afforded me everyopportunity possible.
I got an excellent education.
(10:41):
I'm living my dream by buildingmy own business, fighting for
women within the correctionalfacilities.
I'm able to be a comfortable,dominant lesbian.
I probably wouldn't have beenable to do in Haiti.
Right.
But still, not being able togrow up in Haiti, I got stripped
of my culture.
There are two languages that Ihave no idea how to speak.
(11:07):
I didn't choose this life.
This life was chosen for me andthat's not necessarily fair.
I'm not saying that my mom waswrong in adopting me.
I'm saying that the system waswrong and how they went about
things.
Tony (11:19):
Thank you.
Thank you for sharing that.
Beth.
I wanted to move on to you aswell.
What was your journey like, bothto adoption and also also in
general, if you feel comfortablementioning some of those things?
Beth (11:38):
Well, first of all, I just want to say I will never ever
tire of having the privilege oflistening to adoptees to speak.
I feel like this is first ofall, an honor that you asked me
and a privilege.
I get to be here with the two ofyou.
And I've learned more fromadoptees and from the few first
(12:05):
and birth families that havebeen able to speak.
And I've been able to hear aboutwhat it is to parent across race
and what it is to parent anadoptee, than I've learned
anywhere else in the world.
So I will always sit and bequiet and listen because there's
so much for me to learn.
So that's the first thing I haveto say.
The journey.
(12:25):
So I came out when I was 16.
Don't worry, I'm not going to goall through all those years
because I'm 52 now.
So that would be a long time.
When I finally realized that Ireally wanted kids, I knew that
it was gonna take some planningand preparation because being a
single sex family, the questionis how do you get that sperm and
(12:49):
make a baby happen?
So we went to Rainbow FamiliesDC and at the time it was
lesbian services and did theirMaybe Baby class, which helped
us learn what we needed to knowto biologically have a child.
We tried, I tried to getpregnant for a number of years
and even though intellectually Iwanted to adopt, in my body I
(13:11):
wanted to be able to be pregnantand see what that was like.
I didn't even care if it was myown kid.
I just wanted to feel what itwas like to be pregnant.
That did not come to pass.
So after doing some grieving ofthat, my partner and I at the
time decided that we would movetowards adoption.
At the time we moved to workwith an organization that then
(13:32):
also asked us the question, areyou open to adopting across
race?
And we had big, hugeconversations about that as two
white women, would we do justiceto raising kids of color?
Is it even fair for us to raisekids of color?
Who are we to think that wecould do that?
And in the end, after doing alot of reflection, we thought,
(13:53):
well, we were willing to do thework to be as conscious as we
possibly could be.
And so we then said, okay, wellwe'd rather have a kid being
raised in a white household ofconscious parents than
non-conscious parents.
And so we then made the choiceto adopt and then we did all of
the process of what it takes toadopt domestically.
(14:15):
We wanted to adopt domesticallybecause we want it to be out as
a couple and we didn't want tolie about who we were.
And at that time, internationaladoption, in most of the places
you had to only have one personadopt.
You couldn't be a couple thatwas the same sex couple.
So we weren't willing to dothat.
So we adopted domestically andwe also were open to adopting
(14:39):
kids of color.
And we also knew that we didn'tneed to go anywhere else.
We could be here.
There are plenty of kids thatneed homes here.
So then we went through theprocess and we, after about a
year and a half of waiting, webrought our first son home and
he's now 12 and then after aboutanother year and a half or two
(15:02):
in that process, we did theprocess again and then we
brought our second child homethree years later.
So he's now nine.
Tony (15:10):
Excellent.
And what's something you wouldtell to people who haven't
adopted that you think theymight want to know about
adopting from the parent side ofit and what that's like for
someone who hasn't necessarilythought about the process?
Beth (15:32):
Well, I think there's a few things.
One is that just as Schai wastalking, one of the things I,
you know, I wanted to have ababy and um, I knew that
adoption was complex.
I had no clue how complex itwas.
And I also had no idea that Iwas actually participating in,
in, in an industry that oftenserved and was made to serve
(15:54):
adoptive parents, particularlywhite adoptive parents at the
expense of, and sometimes harmto people of color, first
families and adoptees.
So I don't think I really had acomprehension of the systemic
nature of adoption and the kindof white supremacist nature of
how it was created.
(16:16):
So what I would say topre-adoptive parents is you have
to know that you're gettinginvolved in an industry and that
in that process you have to payattention to if you're going to
adopt, who are you using forthat adoption process?
How ethical is thatorganization?
Are they really serving theneeds of first and birth
(16:38):
families and adoptees?
Or are they really focusing onyour needs?
And if they're really focusingon your needs, they're not doing
the right job.
That really it's about the needsof the first and birth family
and the adoptee to be born.
And I think the other thing I'velearned a lot from first mothers
that I've spoken to is that inmy mind I was like, Oh well
(16:59):
they're making this choice.
And many first families andfirst mothers that I've spoken
to said they didn't really feellike they had much of a choice
or later they realize that theyweren't given all the
information that they needed tomake a solid decision.
So they felt somehow coercedinto it or moved into it because
(17:20):
of lack of information.
And that piece, I didn't knoweither.
So I would just say be reallywatchful of the organizations
that you're working with andmake sure that they're doing
justice to the triad.
Tony (17:33):
What are signs that you saw when you were adopting that
told you that the organizationsor organization that you were
working with was one of theorganizations that got it, that
understood some of the thingsthat you're talking about.
Beth (17:48):
The first thing that we did of course, we were more
selfishly oriented at the time,as most people I think are
before they have children, wewere thinking about ourselves,
but we liked the organizationthat we went to because they
were really good in dealing withLGBT families.
And we wanted to make sure thatwhoever the first mother was
that was gonna choose us,ideally she would be counseled
(18:13):
appropriately about LGBTfamilies.
So we originally went to thatorganization for that reason.
We also knew that they weregoing to be speaking with first
mothers and first fathers ifthey were present around
different kinds of families.
And that we wanted an openadoption and we wanted a
relationship if at all possible.
So we also were very clear thatwe wanted to have some kind of
(18:36):
dynamic relationship if she wasat all willing to have a
relationship with us, not tohave a closed situation where
our child wouldn't be able tohave access to her or to their
first family.
So we knew that thisorganization was open to that
and was going to be willing tohave that conversation and see
if it was at all possible.
(18:58):
The other thing I would also sayto pre-adoptive parents is to do
your own work around your ownracial identity, particularly
white adoptive parents aboutyour own experience, who you are
as a white person, what's yourexperiences across race and
really ask yourself some veryhonest questions about what kind
(19:22):
of work you are doing or arewilling to do for the sake of
yourself and for your children.
Tony (19:28):
I'm going to switch it over to Schai in direct response
to that.
Schai, what do you think whiteadoptive parents need to be
doing to prepare themselves tohave minority children?
Schai (19:39):
I think actually Beth really tackled that pretty well.
I think adoptive parents need tobe honest with themselves and
really check themselves andreally have the real
conversation with themselves andwith family members and with
their community.
Is this something I can take on?
Because it's not easy.
(20:00):
It's not.
And if you're not ready to deal,like I feel like a lot of white
parents and white adoptiveparents adopt because they're
fascinated with black culture,right?
Because let's be real blackculture's amazing, right?
But they want the positives ofblack culture and they don't
understand black culture is alsovery ugly.
You know what I'm saying?
Like black culture also has verydark, dark things about it.
(20:23):
Like black depression, blackmental health period, like
across the board, right.
Black masculinity, blackfemininity.
That's not, those aren't theugly parts.
Don't get me wrong.
Those are not the ugly parts,but those are still very intense
parts and they can be ugly partsof it.
You know what I'm saying?
Beth (20:44):
I was just thinking, Schai, with that, because of
racism I think and because ofwhite supremacy it becomes that
shadow side that some of thosethings are seen as negative or
not so great.
It's really because of racismand what racism puts on black
people.
Schai (21:02):
Yeah, I would agree with that.
Tony (21:03):
Schai as an adoptee, what are some things that you think
adoptees face growing up thatpeople who are not at adoptees
and might not feel growing up?
Schai (21:13):
So I was kind of prepared for this, but I wasn't prepared
for this.
Like this might get a littleemotional right here.
I feel like love is not enough.
You know what I mean?
Like, like I'm tired of hearingadoptive parents in general
saying, Oh, but I love you.
(21:37):
I've given you everything that Icould give you.
Love is not enough.
You know, like I need to feelemotionally safe.
I need to know that even when Iact my worst, you're not gonna
give up, give me up, you know,cause I'm going to push you and
I'm gonna push you again.
I'm gonna push you even harder.
I need to know that every singletime you're going to come back
and love me stronger, becausesomebody has already given up on
me once, you know what I mean?
(21:57):
And so like I need you to watchhow you word things.
Like there's certain things thatyou just do not say to an
adoptee.
I don't care how old we get.
I don't care how experienced weare, there's just certain things
you do not say to an adoptee.
Tony (22:13):
And do you have an example of that for listeners at home?
Schai (22:16):
Like, you should feel lucky that you were adopted.
You should feel lucky somebodytook you in.
Like when people tell me that Ishould feel lucky or I'm not
appreciative of my adoptiveparents or anything like that.
Like what do you mean I'm notappreciative?
Why should I be appreciative?
I didn't ask for this.
What do I owe them?
(22:37):
I don't owe my mother anything.
You know what I'm saying?
The only thing she owed me wasto love me and to show me that
she would never give up on me.
And that she would protect me.
No, what I'm saying, I don't oweher anything.
I was a kid.
I didn't ask to be adopted.
Beth (22:58):
You know what I was thinking about, Schai, was when
you were talking about you don'towe your adoptive mom anything.
I think a lot of times what I'veheard adoptees say, and you
actually as well, I've heard yousay is the bind that you've
often felt yourself in ofloyalty of mixed loyalty.
(23:18):
Like is it okay for me to lovemy adoptive parents and miss my
biological parents?
Can I talk about my biologicalparents with my adoptive
parents?
Is it going to upset them?
And the level and the number ofadoptees that I've heard speak
about this problem and dilemmaof feeling like they need to
(23:41):
take care of their adoptiveparents.
And you know, I think that's ofwhat I heard you saying just
now.
Schai (23:47):
That's so important.
And like I feel like adopteesare oftentimes, they're loyal to
a fault.
And they look out for otherpeople before they look out for
themselves.
And they will emotionally gointo past the cup being dry.
The couple who have cracks in itand adoptees are still going and
(24:10):
going and going and just likebegging people to love them and
really showing up with the bestthat they have.
So in all of my relationships,with my relationship with my
mom, with like intimaterelationships, I'm always like,
all I need is your emotionalsafety.
I just need to know I'memotionally safe with you.
(24:30):
I don't need the financialsafety, I don't need the
physical safety.
I can protect myself, but I needto know that emotionally I am
safe with you because I feellike that's something adoptees
never really received.
Tony (24:40):
And what is emotional safety?
Schai (24:42):
Like for example, like I was saying earlier, I need to
know that you're not gonna getmad at me and you're just going
to roll out.
You know what I mean?
Adoptees have that hugeabandonment issues.
And don't get me wrong, likewhen it comes to intimate
relationships, somerelationships just don't work
out, you know?
But I'm talking about like theminor stuff, the petty stuff.
Beth (25:02):
I just want to add as a parent, my kids both in
different ways, all kids test usas parents.
That's just what they do.
That's what they're supposed todo.
But part of the challenge isthat what I see is that my kids
test and they test to see if I'mgoing to stick around.
So to what you're saying, thereare a number of experiences
(25:23):
where my kids will say certainthings.
Well, if you were my birthmother, then dot, dot, dot, or
if you were black dot, dot dotand I think they're looking and
testing to see, number one, ifI'm going to stick around and
number two, how am I going torespond and am I going to freak
out or am I going to go rightthere into that conversation
with them?
Which I will do because I needto make sure that they know I'm
(25:46):
there and I'm not goinganywhere.
And I also need to understandthat at the core of adoption is
loss.
And as an adoptive parent, Icannot ignore that, as much as I
want to.
Somebody's joy is somebodyelse's loss and pain and that's
kind of at the root of adoption.
So for me, my joy of having mychildren is their birth mother's
(26:11):
pain and their pain of nothaving their biological mom.
Tony (26:15):
I think that that's a great point.
I think that this is an examplefor both adoptees and for
adoptive parents of what goes onwhen you're growing up as an
adoptee in your relationship toyour birth family sometimes.
And you might not feel connectedto them in some way.
And in other ways you might feelconnected to them in negative
ways that makes you feel badly,not just about your birth
(26:37):
parents per se, but about thegroup that they're attached to
as well racially.
And what do you do with thatitself and how do you combat
some of those negative feelingswithin yourself?
Not only about your birthfamily, but about groups of
people as well.
I think for, for adoptiveparents out there, and for
people that are thinking ofadopting, it's important to
(27:02):
remember first and foremost thatadoptees stories are their
stories and their narrativesfirst and foremost.
And is that their stories startbefore they ever step in the
home with their adoptiveparents.
And so the traumas that they'rebringing with them into their
(27:24):
new households are things thatare part of their identities.
And so it's important for us tohonor that as professionals, as
parents, as communities, butalso to recognize that there's
not blame necessarily onadoptive parents for that
(27:45):
trauma.
That there's not blame on birthmothers and birth fathers for
that trauma.
The trauma is just somethingthat simply exists and we have a
choice to make.
When that trauma happens, wehave the choice to address it.
We have the choice to deflectfrom it and we have the choice
to ignore it.
(28:05):
And I think we know which choiceout of those three is going to
help our kids.
And then our adults the most.
And I think this is what thisconversation is, is trying to
address in that way.
So I wanted to move on and toget, Beth and Schai, your final
thoughts on interracial adoptionin general.
(28:29):
Do you think from what we'vediscussed here from your lives,
is interracial adoptionsomething that is a positive or
negative as experienced orneither?
And should interracial adoptionbe a practice that continues?
Schai (28:48):
I personally do not necessarily agree with
interracial adoption.
And it is because like I saidearlier when we first started
the show, that I feel like whiteparents are put on a pedestal
that they don't deserve to beon, and the system does not
provide the parents the adequatetools needed to raise these
(29:12):
black children.
And I feel like black kids,whether they be interracial,
international or domestic, Ifeel like they're stripped of a
culture that they can never getback.
And, um, so for those reasons, Idon't necessarily agree with an
interracial adoption.
Beth (29:31):
I think I would say that in an ideal world, children
would be raised with theirbiological parents.
Given the fact that we live in aracist, classist, we can think
of every IST exists.
This system exists.
So therefore, how do you becomethe best possible interracial
adoptee family and what's thework that has to be done?
(29:55):
So I agree that ideally it wouldbe same race adoption if there
was adoption needed at all.
And if there is the need forinterracial adoption, I would
say, white parents do your work,do your work on race, do your
work on class, do your work onsexuality, do your work on
everything that exists so thatyou can do the work on behalf of
(30:19):
yourself and for your childrenso they can be as healthy with
as greatest self esteem aspossible.
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