Supporting Trans Pregnancy

Family Equality believes everyone deserves to grow and sustain their family. That includes transgender people who want to have biological children. Two trans dads share their pregnancy journeys. 

Episode Transcript

Emily (00:05):
Are you a member of the Trans Community who is
considering parenthood?

(00:25):
Are you already a parent?
Are you an ally who wants tosupport the community?
Family equality believes thateveryone deserves to grow and
sustain their family.
We recently released a newFamily Building for the Trans
Community Guide that inspired meto talk to two t rans p arents
who have shared their pregnancyjourneys in various ways and

(00:46):
their paths to parenthood.
So I'm very excited today totalk to T ristan Reese and J
esse Fluetsch.

(02:14):
So to get us started then, we,you both talked a little bit
about this in your b io's, but Iwould love to know more about
who is in your family and howwas it formed.

Jesse (02:25):
Yeah, I'd love to.
And thanks for inviting me totalk about my family.
I love talking about my familyand my cute little baby.
My husband Rick and I met at theUniversity of Utah Queer Student
Union nine years ago.
And we got married six yearsago.
We decided to have a baby.

(02:48):
It's something we talked aboutbefore we got married.
When I was younger, I didn't seemyself ever wanting to get
pregnant or have a biologicalchild.
But that changed.
And about two years ago westarted the process of getting
off testosterone and trying toconceive.

(03:10):
Our family is Daddy Jesse, DaddyRick and baby Naomi.

Emily (03:14):
Wonderful.
And Tristan, who is in yourfamily and how was it formed?

Trystan (03:19):
Yeah, well who is in my family is me, and I am Daddy,
and then my partner Biff, who isDada, and then we have our big
kids(that's what we call them)Haley and Riley.
They are nine and 11.
And then we have baby Leo andhe's two.
And how was it formed?
Well, Biff and I became parentsovernight to little Haley and

(03:41):
Riley when they were just oneand three, when Biff's sister
found herself unable to care forthem in the ways that they
needed.
So they came to stay with us fora little while and that little
while turned into a long while,which turned into forever.
And and our illegal adoption ofthem became final in 2015 and
Leo is biologically my child andBiff's child and I gestated and

(04:07):
gave birth to him in 2017.

Emily (04:09):
And why did you decide that pregnancy was a way that
you wanted to grow your familyand what for you went into
making that decision?

Trystan (04:26):
For us, adoption was extraordinarily difficult.
I think any way that you becomea parent has its own challenges.
And I think becoming a parentreally suddenly with no
preparation and then having togo through many legal hurdles to

(04:46):
secure adoption.
It wasn't as straightforward aswe'd signed up and we got a
placement.
It was just way more complicatedthan that.
And so between the emergencyguardianship, the legal
guardianship, the termination ofparental rights and the
adoption, it was a lot.
It was a lot for us to gothrough though.
There were a lot of years whentruly at any point these kids
could have been taken away fromus and put back in a really

(05:08):
dangerous situation.
All it would've taken was onehomophobic social worker and
that would've been it for us.
And it's really scary whenyou're already a marginalized
person.
Giving over that much power andcontrol to strangers is
terrifying.
And so I knew that I wanted tohave a bigger family.
I talked to my partner about it.
He agreed.
We wanted to have more kids andwe wanted to have the experience

(05:30):
of becoming parents, not in atime of crisis.
And to be honest with you, notat the expense of somebody else
having their family torn apart.
I mean, that is an extremelydifficult situation to be in for
everyone involved.
We were curious about what itwould look like to do it on our

(05:51):
own, um, or to DIY it, I guess.
And I know of transgender menwho've had babies and so it
wasn't something that was new ordifferent to me.
And I'm a nerd.
So I dug into the data and Ilooked at the research and I was
like, oh yeah, science agrees.
This is not an extraordinary orexceptional thing to do.

(06:11):
Bodies are amazing.
And this is totally somethingthat people do and can do and
have done and will continue todo.
So we decided to do it.

Emily (06:19):
And Jesse, why your particular path to to
parenthood?
What went in for you to makingthat decision?

Jesse (06:26):
Well, when I was a younger transgender person, when
I was a teenager, I never sawmyself having a biological
child.
And looking back on that, Irealize now that that was about
me being miserable and hatingmyself and not wanting to create

(06:48):
someone who would be miserableand hate themselves.
So it took me hormonallytransitioning and socially
transitioning and becominghappier and more mentally
healthy before it's somethingthat I could even see as a
possibility.
And while I was growing up andgoing through my transition,

(07:09):
simultaneously there were transmen in the news who were
pregnant and giving birth.
And when I was hearing aboutthis, it seemed strange to me at
first and it wasn't something Icould relate to having that
desire.
Frankly, it wasn't until mynephew was born and I saw my

(07:31):
sister-in-law right after thebirth holding him and the bond
between them was beautiful.
And I knew immediately that Iwanted that.

Emily (07:46):
Thank you both.
What are some of the things thenthat you wish you had known
before starting that journey?

Jesse (07:54):
I think when I was younger, when I was first
transitioning, everyone was toldthat testosterone would make
them infertile.
And that's not true.
And I wish that the doctors hadbetter information and that that

(08:14):
information had beendisseminated properly.
I know people who have hadunplanned pregnancies while on
testosterone.
And I wish that I had known howsupportive people in my life
would be.
I was scared.
I was scared that my familywould judge me or think I was

(08:35):
putting our baby at risk.
They were shocked when theyfound out I was pregnant and
that Rick and I were having abiological child, but they were
very, very happy for us.

Trystan (08:49):
The misinformation is really rough and it comes from a
lot of different sides.
There are many reasons whythere's misinformation.
I don't know that there hasnecessarily been a huge desire

(09:12):
from the academic and medicaland scientific community to
really study trans fertility.
I'm not blaming any oneparticular person, but it just
hasn't been a top priority.
Most people don't know this, butthe use of hormones for
transition purposes, that's anoff label use.
So those hormones are notcreated for transition purposes.

(09:34):
They're created for cisgendernon-transgender women who are
going through menopause and needestrogen.
They're created fornon-transgender men who have low
testosterone.
They weren't even made for us.
Luckily for us, there areamazing LGBTQ+ academics who've
studied the longitudinal effectsof hormones on our bodies.
We know a lot of that, butthat's not what it was made for

(09:56):
and that's not what it wastested for.
Our providers have made someassumptions based on other data
that they have that just isn'ttrue for us.
And so it's hard to unlearn allof those things.
I too was told that testosteronewould make me infertile and I'd
never be able to have a child,which I didn't care about at the

(10:16):
time cause I just wanted totransition.
But I think that informationtrickles out and then everyone
just assumes that A) you can'thave a baby and then B) you
certainly wouldn't want tobecause that's the thing that
women do.
And if you're trans and you'resupposed to hate your body,
you're supposed to not want todo anything that would be in any
way associated with femininity.
So it's can be very confusing topeople.

(10:37):
But I think like Jesse, I havean extraordinary amount of
privilege and had a lot ofpeople who were supportive
around me.
One of the surprising things isin the like pregnancy and
fertility world, a lot of theassumption is that it is the job
of the person who's going to getpregnant to know all the things.
And that's usually a woman.
And then it is not the job ofthe person who is not getting

(10:59):
pregnant to know literallyanything.
And that's usually the husband.
And so I think a lot of thepeople in those worlds kind of
assume that men are idiots.
I mean, I was treated like anidiot a lot.
Even after Leo was born, alactation consultant, first of
all, she came in and my partnerwas holding the baby instead of
me.
I was resting, I had just givenbirth and she was like, oh well,

(11:21):
well is this a strange turn ofevents?
Which was so weird.
I guess normally it's the personwho gives birth that's holding
the baby and not the partner.
It was so weird.
And she was like, Oh, I'mworried about the sound that
he's making when he's feeding.
And I was like, Oh, do you thinkhe might have a tongue tie?
And she's like, you know what atongue tie is?
I was like, yeah, I read like 15books on pregnancy and

(11:43):
childbirth.
I'm in like 12 Facebook groups.
Yeah, I know what a tongue tieis.
It was weird being treated likea man in a space where men are
not usually engaged in theprocess.
So it was very confusing topeople in that realm.
But once they saw like, yeah, weknow what we're doing, we
already have two kids and theyhave survived our parenting this
long, so I think we'll be fine.

Emily (12:05):
Yeah.
Did you also experience some ofthose like expectations of what
parenthood means for men andwomen and how people just
perceive that being so radicallydifferent?

Jesse (12:16):
I'd say I've experienced it more after the birth of
Naomi.
Every group I go into, everyparenting group, every play
group, I'm the only man.
Not only am I the only queerperson and the only trans
person, but I'm the only dad.
And by the way, these aren'tcalled mom groups.
They're called parent groups,but they're not.

(12:39):
I think when people see me withmy baby, they assume that I'm
doing something some kind ofspecial duty or something out of
the ordinary when this is oureveryday life.

Emily (12:55):
Yeah, that's really interesting.
And I can imagine frustratinglyfrequent in a lot of those
interactions.
You've both mentioned thoseearly stages of transition and
some of the information,especially about fertility that
that doctors were sharing withyou.
Family Equality's FamilyBuilding for the Trans Community

(13:16):
Guide starts by encouragingpeople to consider reproductive
options and desires beforestarting any medical transition.
Just now that there's moreinformation too for folks to be
considering.
So Trystan, you mentioned this alittle bit, but could you talk a
little bit more about whybecoming a biological parent

(13:36):
really didn't factor into yourtransition and how did that
maybe change over time.

Trystan (13:49):
Yeah, I mean well there are two answers to that
question.
One is the personal answer andone is what the data shows.
I'm going to start with what thedata shows because that is 100%
reflected in my experience.
So there are several studiesthat are about fertility
preservation and which is themedical process of preserving
reproductive material prior totransitioning either trans

(14:10):
masculine- if you're atransgender man or a non-binary
person who was assigned femaleat birth- or trans feminine- a
transgender woman or someonewho's nonbinary who was assigned
male at birth.
So you can preserve yourfertility before you transition
for a variety of reasons.
But just in case your fertilityis going to be impacted by your
transition.
And in some cases it really is.

(14:31):
What the data shows us is thatthe vast majority of transgender
people do not preserve theirfertility before transitioning.
And there's a few reasons forthat.
For trans youth, by and large,they just say they don't ever
want to be parents or they wantto adopt.
That is far and above the reasonwhy they do not preserve their

(14:51):
fertility.
Not cost.
And not that they don't want topostpone their transition- you
do kind of have to pause yourtransition to go through a
fertility process.
That was not even in the topfive.
They were like, yeah, who wantsto be a parent?
Okay.
Cause they're like 17 years oldand when I was 20, 21, 22, first

(15:12):
transitioning, hell no Icouldn't think about ever
becoming a parent.
There's an overlap I thinkbetween what I was hearing from
Jesse and similarly I just neverthought about being transgender
and being a parent.
I didn't know anyone who was atransgender parent.
I didn't know anyone who wastransgender and married and had

(15:34):
a family.
I didn't know any trans peoplewho were in healthy
relationships period.
So I was like, why would I eventhink about that?
So when they said this'll causesterility, I was like, no
problem.
Give me that beard juice.
And I signed on the line and Ididn't care.
And I think that's a big part ofwhat we see in the data- that a
lot of trans youth aren'tthinking about that.
But it's really important tojuxtapose that against what we

(15:57):
see when we're in the researchof trans adults.
So about 78% of trans adultsregret not preserving their
fertility prior to transition.
A majority of trans adults wishthat they had preserved their
fertility.
And so for me, those are tworeally important pieces of
information.
Trans youth don't want to havekids, trans adults wish that

(16:20):
they had the opportunity to havekids.
And I think that that poses ahuge and really important
question to the trans community.
How are we talking to transyoung people about their
possibilities for the future?
How are we helping trainproviders on how to have these
conversations in a way thatrespects their autonomy as full,

(16:40):
whole, complete people, but alsounderstands that
developmentally, most youngpeople aren't thinking about
fertility and we want them tohave those options, all the
options available to them whenand if they ever become ready.
So, that's what keeps me up atnight.
Thinking about all the transpeople that come to me at
conferences, at workshops on thestreet and literally just start

(17:02):
crying because they'vetransitioned to the point where
they can't have biological kids.
And until they heard my story,they had no idea that that was
even possible.
They didn't think they weregonna live long enough to have
kids.
They didn't think anyone waswith ever going to love them,
that they'd eever have a job.
All the things that I didn'tbelieve and now they actually
have outlived those fears andthey want to have the kind of

(17:23):
life where they can share itwith other people in a family as
part of that and now they can't.

Emily (17:26):
I love that like holistic look to caring for younger
people now and that it isn'tjust a matter of medical
information.
It's also health, workplaceprotections, educational
opportunities, housing,security.
It is such a holistic thing foranybody to be deciding to become

(17:49):
a parent, or feeling like theyhave the tools that they need
and the resources and thesecurity and safety that they
need to be to be parenting in ahealthy way.
That's so universal.
But it is especially important,uniquely important for the trans
community.

(18:10):
Jesse where did parenthood andthoughts of parenthood either
biologically or adoption factorinto your life?

Jesse (18:18):
Well, first of all I really appreciate what Trystan
was saying.
The kids that I work with are 14and under and some of them have
already gone through their natalpuberty, but others have put it
on hold, and they would have togo through that puberty now in
order to do fertilitypreservation.

(18:40):
And none of them care.
They do not see themselveshaving biological children.
And this is with having seen meand me talking to them about my
experience and bringing my babyto group.
Unlike Trystan, I always wantedto be a parent.
I just didn't want to have abiological child and it took me

(19:02):
growing up and it took metransitioning and becoming
happier and healthier andcomfortable in my own skin for
me to consider using my body tobecome a parent.
The whole experience of carryingmy baby and growing her inside
my own body feels redemptive inthat it's been difficult for me

(19:24):
to be me to be a person with amale gender identity in this
body.
But in the end I'm glad I havethis body because without it I
wouldn't have Naomi and she'sbeautiful and I love being a
dad.

Trystan (19:41):
This is another perfect place to throw in some more
numbers and data, which is thatwhen you look at the experiences
of trans identified peoplewho've been through pregnancy,
about a third share Jesse'sexperience about their own
discomfort or dysphoria withtheir body actually lessening
throughout the process ofpregnancy and postpartum.

(20:04):
And I know it soundscounterintuitive, but I'm so
glad that you shared that.
It's exactly what Jesse said,it's redemptive.
Like here I have this body thatI may have had complicated
feelings about my whole life,but now it's doing something so
good.
It's doing something positive.
It's creating life, it'snourishing a baby.
And so that's one example of howit can go.

(20:25):
The other third of people saythat they are discomfort and
gender dysphoria lessens.
About a third stay the same.
That was me.
I got pregnant and I was like,this is cool.
Weird.
For me I was just like scienceand so I didn't experience any
heightened or lesseneddysphoria.
It was just the same.
It was like, here's my body isdoing this cool thing, Rad.

(20:46):
And then about a third doexperience heightened dysphoria.
So it is very emotionally,psychologically difficult for
them to see their body changingin a way that some people might
consider to be more in alignmentwith a more feminine body shape.
I of course don't see it thatway.
So there's a variety ofexperiences in the end.

(21:10):
The data really bears that out.

Emily (21:12):
Shifting a little bit then.
I would love to hear yourthoughts on some of the ways
that partners, family members,and community members supported
you in the prenatal and alsoreally importantly in that
postpartum experience.

Trystan (21:28):
My partner and I had a bit of a stumbling block because
I just hadn't communicated tohim like this is what I need
from you.
This is what allyship is goingto look like to me throughout
this process.
And the one incident that Ispecifically remember was we had
an ultrasound technician who wasfine when she was giving me the
ultrasound and when I left theroom in my absence, she used the

(21:51):
wrong pronouns for me when shetalked to my partner.
And for some reason that I don'tunderstand, he decided to share
that with me when I came out ofthe bathroom.
Which pro tip number one, justdon't tell us.
If it doesn't happen, if wedon't hear it.
No need to tell us that.
But anyways, he told me, Oh, theultrasound technician called you
'she' when you were in thebathroom.
And I was like, are you serious?

(22:12):
And so then we went into the tothe next meeting, which is with
the OB who oversees the wholedepartment.
And I told him, your ultrasoundtechnician used the wrong
pronouns for me.
And my expectation is that thenext time I come back in, you'll
have given her all the supportshe needs to make sure that that
doesn't happen again.
And if you need a recommendationfor somebody you can hire to

(22:33):
train your staff so this doesn'thappen to anyone ever again, I'm
happy to give you the name ofsomeone that you can pay to do
that.
Then my partner jumps in therewith like, oh, but we
understand, most people who getpregnant are women and it's
probably just habit.
And we know that you guys don'tmean to.
And I was like, okay, if we'redoing good cop, bad cop, I get

(22:53):
to be good cop.
You're bad cop.
That's how allyship works inthis situation.
That's how I want it to work.
But I realize, okay, I didn'tmake that clear.
And so when we left I was like,so I don't want you to make
excuses for people when I'mdoing the brave and hard work of
holding them accountable for theways in which they are not
showing up for us in the waythat we deserve.

(23:15):
Don't really need you toundercut me in that.
And he was like, oh my gosh, I'mso sorry.
I thought I was making iteasier.
I was like, no problem, butmoving forward, this is what I
want from you.
You handle it.
So yeah, that was a big learningthat we had and I would give to
other people, which is just likereally do some intentional
thinking.
What do I want?
What do I need?
What do I want to handle?

(23:36):
What do I want other people tohandle?
And ask for help a billiontimes.
Never be ashamed or embarrassed.
The worst they can say is no.
No one is ever going to beoffended that you were like,
Hey, I just had a baby.
Can you come and make me sometea?
Hey, would you by any chance tobe able to do a sleepover and
feed the baby overnight so I canget a solid eight hours of sleep

(23:58):
one night?
Maybe they can't do it, but noone's ever going to be mad at
you for asking them that ever.
They're going to be mad at youwhen two years later you're
like, yeah, I had really badpostpartum depression from not
sleeping and no one helped.
They're going to be like, fool,why didn't you call me?
I would've loved to help.
People really want to help.
They really want to show up.
I found that in medical spaces,finding that cool person and

(24:20):
then saying like, Hey, I had ahard time with this other
person.
Can you, can you deal with them?
People want to do to be inallyship, they want to show up
for you.
So I think just asking for whatyou need and taking yes for an
answer when people say that theywant to help.

Jesse (24:34):
I think that the best advice anyone gave me about what
to do pre and post partum wasnever say no when someone offers
to help.
I was very fortunate that therewere a lot of people there to
help me, including of course mypartner.
Tristan, I think what youbrought up about what allyship
looks like is important becausewhen you're say in labor you

(25:01):
can't advocate for yourself orcan't do it very effectively.
And I know that when I was inlabor it meant the world to me
to have my partner there and tohave my mom there and to have my
doula there who's queer.
They were all advocating for mewhen I was in no position to do

(25:24):
that.
They were correcting people'spronoun usage.
They were making sure that wewere both called dads, as well
as advocating for just pregnancystuff that everybody faces.
But you know, when we're trans,there's a lack of cultural
competency sometimes and ourallies, whether they be family
members or friends or hiredprofessionals, can help fill

(25:48):
that gap and advocate for uswhen we aren't in the position
to do that for ourselves.

Emily (25:54):
That's actually a perfect segue.
Thank you Jesse.
A while back we put out a callout for some questions from
folks on social media.
Kim on Instagram is a socialworker and was wondering what
other resources would be helpfulfor trans parents to have access
to?
So what were some of those otherresources that you either

(26:15):
accessed or just what you thinkwould be important to have more
competency and allyship in thosebroader social resources?

Jesse (26:26):
Well, one resource that I accessed while I was pregnant
was a government program forpregnant women.
And I'm really glad that I hadaccess to that.
We were going through a periodof low income when I got
pregnant.
I was very happy to be pregnant,but I was also worried because

(26:47):
the timing wasn't ideal.
So I think it's really importantthat that all the resources in
our community that are forexpectant parents are accessible
to trans people.
You know, we are more likelythan cisgender people to be low
income and we need to be able toaccess those resources.

(27:09):
It can be a little daunting toconstantly be applying for
resources that are for womenthat have women and mother and
the title.
And you just have to do that toget what you need.

Trystan (27:23):
There's one really great study out of the UK which
really looks at the medicalexperiences of trans gestational
parents.
And they really pulled out thatthere are three main areas of

(27:43):
psychological care during theprocess that need to be in
place.
One is that there is a placewhere the person is having their
identity affirmed.
So they're being called by theirright pronouns, are being called
by their right name.
All of that.
Next is a place where someonecould have their pregnancy
affirmed.
So they need to be able to talkabout their pregnancy.

(28:05):
They need a place where they canask, is this normal?
Is this usual?
What should I expect?
All of that.
And then finally they need asense of physical and
psychological safety.
You just cannot feel like youare under attack.
That is going to have rippleeffects throughout all other
aspects of your life, includingwell into postpartum.

(28:25):
Ideally people have all three ofthese things all the time, but
we don't live in that world.
And so what we see is that sometrans parents, especially those
who have not taken hormonesprior to becoming pregnant, they
actually choose to allow theworld to see them as a cisgender
woman.
And in that way, they're able tohave their pregnancy affirmed.
They're able to get supportaround their pregnancy and

(28:46):
they're able to feel safe.
But unfortunately then they arenot having their identity
affirmed.
And so that can be reallypsychologically challenging for
people.
Some people choose to go stealthas a cisgender man and not tell
most people that they'repregnant, which is great.
They have their gender identityaffirmed, they're much safer.
But then you have so many fewerpeople to talk to about actually

(29:08):
being pregnant.
You don't get to sit at thefront of the bus even if you
feel super nauseous.
And those things seem small, butthey really do add up in terms
of cutting you out of the accessthat our society has created for
helping make pregnancy a littleeasier for people.
Or you can out and proud as atrans pregnant person as I was,
which means that your identityis affirmed, your pregnancy is

(29:28):
supported, but you are reallyunsafe.
So you can't really have allthree of those things.
But I think any program, anykind of supportive systems
should be thinking about thosethree aspects.
And ideally all three of themare.
And so when you go into aclinic, no matter what kind,
whether it's a federal thing ora doula's office or a midwifery

(29:49):
clinic or a birthing center orwhatever, does every person's
have their identity, theirgender affirmed?
Are they supported in theirpregnancy?
And are they going to feel safe?
And I think if you apply thatlens to all of your work, right
action comes from that.
Family Equality has now builtseveral programs to help

(30:11):
providers be better at providingthose three things to the people
that they support.
Over 1,200 providers around thecountry have gone through at
least one of our online trainingmodules dedicated to helping
them learn more about how to besupportive of the LGBTQ+
community in general as they'refamily building.
And then specifically transpeople who are going through
fertility processes.

(30:32):
But that's a tiny drip in theocean of providers.
To fill in the gap, I thinkabout two other things.
One, I think about supportivepeople, professional support,
people such as doulas.
I do a doula trans birthtraining because I think doulas
are a great way to bridge thatgap while we're waiting for the
providers to catch up.
Let's get some people in therewho can help do that sort of

(30:54):
bridging so that people who arein labor don't have to do it.
And then I think the third thingis I'm thinking more and more
intentionally about what does itmean to actually build the
resiliency and self advocacyskills of the trans community?
Specifically so that we havehealed our wounds around medical
trauma, around our identities,around our bodies.
So we're better able to show upin those medical spaces and say,

(31:18):
I don't like the language you'reusing.
I want you to fix your form.
Please don't use that word whenyou talk to me.
I want you to do this instead.
We need to have some of thoseself-advocacy skills while we're
waiting for providers to catchup.
And not everyone can afford adoula or has access to one in
their community.
I think all three things need tobe happening.
So those are the sort of threebig things that I'm thinking

(31:40):
about and working on when itcomes to making sure that people
have the support they need.

Emily (31:43):
Amazing.
Thank you both so much.
Any other final thoughts forlisteners?

Jesse (31:50):
You know, we need support, we need love, we need
resources just like everybodyelse, but we also, we need to be
treated with respect and we needto be seen as whole people.

Trystan (32:05):
I think what I usually share with any LGBTQ+ person who
wants to become a parent is tohold tight to your vision of
having a family.
And hold lightly to how you'regoing to get there.
Because there are so manymysteries in the human body.
It may not happen for youbiologically.
The world may have a differentplan for you and there may be a

(32:29):
kid sitting in foster care orsitting in a group home right
now who in a way is waiting foryou.
I just saw a show last night onNetflix where there's an
adoptive parent and he's talkingto his grown daughter and he
says, you know, even though Iwasn't there when you were born,
I was always your dad.

(32:50):
And I'm an adoptive parent and Ifeel that way about my kids too.
Even if you've lost that abilityor it doesn't happen for you in
that way, a family will happenif you want it to.
And there will never be a timewhen you look at your kids and
you're like, you know, I wish Ihad had different kids.
No, no, no.
You will always say, oh, ofcourse.

(33:12):
Of course.
And thank God you're here.