Tag-Team Pregnancy

Some LGBTQ+ parents take turns carrying a pregnancy as they grow their family. What’s that experience like when shared by partners? How can partners support one another as their choices and paths differ? Moms Hideko and Cherie share their stories and advice on everything from being first-time parents to bonding as the non-biological parent. 

Episode Transcript

Emily (00:04):
If you've listened to other outspoken voices episodes,
you've heard stories about allsorts of different paths to

(00:27):
Parenthood and family formation.
One experience that we haven'tyet explored is when more than
one parent chooses to carry apregnancy in the same family.
We know each person's pregnancy,birth and postpartum journey is
totally unique.
So what's the experience likewhen shared by partners?
How can partner support oneanother as their choices and

(00:51):
paths can also be so different?
So with me to talk about theirexperiences are Cherie and
Hideko.

(02:02):
Would you tell us more about whois in your family and how it was
it formed?

Hideko (02:07):
Our family's a family four lovely women like myself,
my wife, Cheri, and Yuki who isnine and Kaya who is about to be
six.
We each carried one of ourchildren.

Cherie (02:25):
Hideko went first and was both the gestational and
biological parent to Yuki andthen I went second and I'm also
gestational and biologicalparent to Kaya.

Emily (02:38):
What are some things that you like to do as a family?

Cherie (02:43):
A lot of times we like to just hang out around the
house and watch TV or movies orplay games.
We like to travel and we don'tdo a lot of far traveling, but
just small trips, like localcamping trips or going up to
Lake Tahoe.

Emily (02:55):
What are some of the major things that went into your
decision to grow your family inthe way that you did?
What factors?
Financial, medical, timing, theimportance of biological or not
or not connections, cultural,all of those things?

Hideko (03:14):
I think I always knew I wanted to carry and have
children.
I am older than Cherie and sowhen it came to timing, age was
a really big factor for mydecision.
And so it was probably around 36maybe when I really started to

(03:35):
think seriously about it.
And Cherie and I met probablyvery shortly after I was even
thinking about wanting to have achild.
And so yeah, that was part ofour interesting timeline and
journey as we met each other.
I had already been thinking thatI wanted to get pregnant and
wanted to have children.
So, maybe because of our agedifference, it was definitely on

(03:57):
my mind quite a bit prior to useven meeting.

Cherie (04:01):
Right.
Whereas for me, I also knew thatI wanted to have kids, but
because I was younger I was notyet thinking about it.
And so in that sense it madethings very easy in our decision
making process.
But there was no question aboutwho would go first.
I think the more difficult partwas about deciding when, because
we were at the start of ourrelationship already talking

(04:22):
about bringing children to themix.

Emily (04:24):
That that sounds like that was coming up really early
in your relationship.

Cherie (04:29):
We ended up having a lot of conversations about it.
We discussed various things-like if Hideko decided that she
wanted to have a kid, was Igoing to be all in and decide to
co-parent?
We explored different options.
But in the end, ultimately Iknew that I wouldn't be able to
be in a relationship, acommitted relationship with her

(04:50):
when she has a child and notalso be 100% that child's parent
.
So we made the decision to waituntil I was ready.

Hideko (04:59):
Yeah.
Well we had been in arelationship for about two years
long distance and when Cheriemoved up to San Francisco, we
moved in together.
It was probably only a yearliving together before I started
trying.
We went in and started lookingat donors and sperm banks and
going to that whole process.

Emily (05:20):
And what was that particular process like for you?
How did you choose to go aboutchoosing a donor?

Speaker 3 (05:26):
I think that we had to explore different options.
But decided that we wanted touse a sperm donor from a sperm
bank, someone that we didn'tknow.
And also try and find a donorthat is willing to be known,
which means that at the age of18 the children can receive the

(05:49):
contact information of thedonor.

Hideko (05:51):
We talked about a lot of options and what we came down to
really was that we wanted toexplore sperm banks and find an
anonymous donor.
I think the most challengingpart for us was in looking at
both of our identities.
We were both Japanese Americanand we were trying to think, do
we try and find some part of thedonor that is Japanese, which

(06:15):
it's really pretty rare to findeven a mix of that.
And meanwhile, when we go intothe office and we look at all
the options, there are binders,stacks and stacks of binders, of
donor profiles that are white.
And at one point we were like,well, would we be okay with

(06:35):
that?
Cherie is biracial.
So we definitely consideredmaybe finding a white donor.
That was the largest school tochoose from.
And so as we were trying to siftthrough, we had pulled out
several profiles, but thensomewhere in that process we
decided that we really wanted toprioritize using a Japanese

(06:56):
American sperm donor, whichbasically took our pool from
hundreds down to two JapaneseAmerican donors that were
willing to be known.
Actually it was very easy in theend because we had to choose one
of two.

Emily (07:12):
You both had at that point thought about potentially
wanting to both be a natalparents, both carry at some
point.
I know sometimes sperm bankswill encourage people to
purchase sperm from a particulardonor with the thought of
planning ahead for siblings andfor multiple insemination
attempts.

(07:32):
Was that something that alsofactored in the first time or
did you take it one step at atime?

Cherie (07:39):
We did a little bit of both.
I think that we purchased enoughsperm to help us get through a
couple of rounds and then wewaited because Hideko got
pregnant and we wanted to seethat pregnancy through and have
our first child.
And happily it worked out and wewent ahead and purchased more
sperm for kiddo number two.

Emily (08:04):
The thought processes that then have to go into the
planning.
That is so much far down theroad thinking that you have to
be planning for and financiallypreparing for to store sperm.
That's not simple as there'ssome big conversations to be
having as you're going throughsomething that is exciting and

(08:25):
scary with just trying to getpregnant for the first time.
To be thinking that far ahead,was that both exciting and scary
or maybe more one than the otherfor you both?

Hideko (08:36):
Yeah, I'd say it's definitely exciting and scary
and you're right, there's a lotof work that goes into it.
A lot of thoughts, a lot of timeand energy and resources and we
had to be strategic in ourdecision making around how much
could we afford and how manyattempts could we afford.
And how much emotional energyand time could we prepare

(09:00):
ourselves for.
We are really fortunate in howquickly both of us were both
able to get pregnant.
Of course that helped us outfinancially because we actually
ended up having bought morevials and reserved them after
Cherie was pregnant.
And we kept them for a long timeas just a possibility, an option

(09:22):
of whether or not we were goingto have a third.
And that's expensive cause thatwent on for years.
Just keeping it and paying forit being frozen and reserved for
us.
And only recently did we finallylet go of it.
And that was also emotional.
I mean this has just been a longextended, drawn out conversation

(09:42):
of will we or won't we have athird child.
If we decided that we did, thenour first choice would be to use
the same sperm donor that weused for our first two, which is
why we were holding onto it forso long.
I know that was really hard todecide, but ultimately it was
also very financial.
We were paying money multipletimes a year to keep this sperm.

Emily (10:04):
I do want to then ask, since you both carried one of
your kiddos, you had twodifferent birth experiences and
journeys.
Would you each talk more aboutyour experiences and the choices
and what felt right for you?

Hideko (10:21):
I went first because of my age.
And at the time I was working ina school that had insurance and
we chose a hospital that wasclose to us and that was covered
by insurance.
And we did the whole tour andfelt like, okay, this seems
nice.
We didn't do many other tours,but maybe both of us were just

(10:44):
in a mindset that we were goingto do a hospital birth and that
was just the norm.
But ultimately we decided thatthis was what was financially
viable for us at the time.
So I'll try and keep this brief.
I had a very great, easy ninemonths pregnancy and then I went
in to the doctors at one pointto just do my regular heartbeat

(11:08):
checks and such.
And it was past my due date atthat point.
So Yuki did not want to comeout, that's the very main thing
that overlays this whole story.
And so they felt like my fluidswere low.
Heartbeat seemed weak at times.
So they wanted to induce me andthey took me in and admitted me
right then and there.
I was not packed for that day.
I was packed to go swimming atmy mom's house.

(11:29):
So it was a bit of a shock andwe got ready and they took me in
and did many, multipleinterventions to get my labor
started.
It went on and on for literallythree days.
And it was really not working.
And so at one point, there iseven a scare that maybe the

(11:51):
heartbeat had dropped and shewas sitting on her chord or
something and we are almostbeing rushed to a C-section.
It was a scary process.
It was emotional.
And then we reversed thedecision cause things were back
to normal and so it was a longprocess.
It took about four days for herto finally come out and the

(12:12):
pushing and everything waspretty traumatic as well.
I think that lasted for many,many hours.
And I forgot to mention, duringthat process I ended up getting
an epidural, because the painand all of the Pitocin.
It was really a painful laborfor me.
That would be the of shortversion of my horror story.

Cherie (12:33):
I just want to mention that I'm a birth and postpartum
doula now, but I wasn't at thetime.
So neither of us really knewmuch about the process.
I mean we took the classes, weread books, we watched videos
and even then, I think goingthrough that process we felt
completely unprepared.

(12:56):
Overwhelmed.

Emily (12:57):
Hideko, you mentioned trauma a few times.
So Cherie, when you were thenexperiencing your own pregnancy
and preparing for your ownlabor, having been the support
person for your partner, how didthat inform some than your own
decision making for yourself andwhat you wanted in a labor

(13:22):
experience?

Cherie (13:23):
Yeah.
Well I think that it had a lotto do with the decisions that we
made the second time around.
After Hideko's birth experience,we had a lot of those'what if'
questions come up for us.
But it led me to do a lot moreresearch, read a lot more books,
and talk to more people who havemade different choices in their

(13:43):
pregnancies.
Throughout that process wediscussed various options, but
ultimately decided to attempt ahome birth with midwives.
And so we went through a verydifferent preparation process.
We took a six-week longhomebirth specific childbirth
course.
We hired a team of doulas.

(14:04):
We worked very closely with ourhome birth midwife, who would
come to our home and do prenatalvisits with us.
And we rented a tub for theapartment.
And just really prepared for abirth without pain medication
and really focused on what wewould need to feel supported at

(14:25):
home.

Hideko (14:26):
I want to back up a little bit just to talk about
the financial piece, becausethat was a very significant
factor in us having theprivilege and resources the
second time to be able to afforda home birth, which is
significantly more expensivethan a hospital birth.
So where we were financially atthat time, we were able to

(14:47):
support that decision, which isa really huge factor and a
privilege that we recognize.

Cherie (14:52):
Yes.
I also had a really prettyenjoyable pregnancy I would say.
And both of our kids came late,well beyond their due dates.
I was about 41 weeks when I wasstarting to get a little anxious
and also knowing that you can'tactually have a home birth after

(15:15):
42 weeks.
Midwives aren't able to attendyour birth at home after 42
weeks, so you would thentransfer to the hospital.
So with a deadline here and amedical induction in the near
future, we started doing a lotof home induction techniques.
There were several days oftrying all sorts of methods to

(15:37):
get things going.
The thing that I do rememberthough is that I felt very not
alone during this period.
My doula and my midwife wasalways in contact with us if we
needed some suggestions oradvice or just encouragement.
It was really nice to know thatI could be home and feel safe.
They were making sure that babywas okay and my vitals were good

(16:01):
so that I could stay at home foras long as everyone felt
comfortable.
And then once things did startmoving along, my water broke
spontaneously, it's all justkind of hazy.
There are things that I don'tremember about it that other
people have told me about.

(16:23):
I remember being here.
I remember Yuki coming by atsome point and hearing her feet
pattering down the halls.
She was pretty unphased by thefact that I was moaning and the
other room, which was alsoreally fun.
It's kind of impressive.
But I think that it was areally, really nice birth.

Emily (16:43):
Those are some very different ways you talk about
those different experiences.
Cherie, you're now a doulayourself.
How did the birth of your kidsfactor into your doula work now?

Cherie (16:56):
It definitely influenced my decision to become a doula.
I say that my interest in birthwork started back when Hieko was
pregnant, though I had no ideaat the time that I would go into
it professionally.
Like I said, I loved watchingbirth videos, reading and

(17:18):
learning.
It just all that seems sofascinating.
The human body can grow a humanand change shape.
And just going through thisprocess of ourselves, it was
very clear to me that one, a lotof people don't know that much
about pregnancy and birth untilthey're finding themselves in
that situation where they'repregnant, expecting and

(17:40):
realizing that they're going tohave to give birth.
And that was just a strangephenomenon.
I think that knowing that howcommon child birth is, it's
happening all over the world forthousands of years, yet it's
still a mystery.
We don't talk about it in ourculture.
We don't see it.
We don't help our relatives givebirth in our home.

(18:02):
We don't have that hands onexperience.
We don't have the grandmothersand those family members who
have that ancestral knowledgethat is passed on.
And so because we've become sodisconnected from it, we're
walking through this path alonewhen we don't need to be.
We shouldn't have to be.
It is something that we could besharing.

(18:24):
So I think that that was a bigpart of it was just that I want
people to not feel alone whilethey're going through
infertility journey orpregnancy, the birth, and then
the postpartum period.
Postpartum should be a time whenpeople are feeling held and
heard and supported.
And so that's why I wanted to dothis work.

(18:46):
I think there's a lot of n eed,especially in a place like San
Francisco.
There's a lot of people here whodon't have family nearby, who
don't have the support that theyshould have.

Emily (18:56):
And for anyone who's unfamiliar, could you just
explain what is a doula?
And what is a doula's role inthe birth experience?

Cherie (19:04):
Most generally a doula is a support person.
And there's lots of differentkinds of doulas.
So in this case I'm a birth andpostpartum doula, which is
somebody that supports anindividual or a family as
they're going through thisprocess of pregnancy and birth
and postpartum.
We support families withevidence-based information and

(19:24):
connect with local resources.
We do a lot of emotional supportand normalizing of the process.
And then hands-on coaching andcare.
There's a lot of education thathappens.Then in the actual labor
we're doing things like makingsure that people are staying

(19:45):
hydrated, helping when they'reready to go in the bathroom.
Changing positions and gettingrest when they can.
A lot of encouragement and thenalso massage, counter pressure
and things like that.
And then in the postpartum, weare there for making that
transition to welcoming thisbaby into your home as soon as

(20:07):
possible.
So it could be coaching aroundnewborn care, like how to soothe
a baby or diaper and swaddle.
Also making sure that whoeverjust gave birth is recovering
well and taking care ofthemselves, making sure the
family has food, and making surethat little things around the
house are taken care of for themso that they don't have to worry

(20:28):
about those things and they canreally focus on recovery and
bonding with baby.
Those are some of the thingsthat we help with.
We're not medical careproviders, which is really
important to distinguish.
We're not there to diagnose orprescribed treatments or
anything like that.

Emily (20:44):
I want to switch a little bit.
Something that I read and hearfrom people in LGBTQ+ spaces
frequently is the difference inthe experience between a
gestational and thenon-gestational parent in a

(21:04):
family.
And frequently I'm readingpeople who are sharing concerns
about if they're thenon-gestational parent in
particular, they have concernsabout how they will feel, how
they'll bond with their child,how they'll be perceived by
others as a parent if they donot give birth.
Did you have those conversationsor concerns or worries about one

(21:30):
of you being a gestational andnon-gestational parent to your
kids?
And did any of those feelingschange over time?

Cherie (21:37):
Yeah, definitely.
Hideko went first and I was anon-gestational and
non-biological parent.
I definitely had concerns abouthow I would bond with the baby
and would our relationship withthis baby be the same knowing
that we both identify asmothers, but having different

(22:00):
connections to each child.
I think I was very protective inthe immediate postpartum with
our first because since I'm notbiologically related to this
child at all, my concern waswhat sets me apart to this child
from anybody else that's in theroom.
Like one of our friends wants tohold the baby and it's like, Oh

(22:23):
but you hold the baby then willyou bond the same way?
It sounds ridiculous now, but itwas some really big stuff for me
at the time.
And I think those thingsdefinitely fade over time.
I don't think there was ever ananswer about what to do.
I think what we've come torealize is that our
relationships with our kids arenot the same and that's okay.

(22:47):
That's the way it's meant to be.
I still think about itsometimes.
It's never completely gone away.
But overall I think that itreally helps to learn to love
them in our own ways and knowthat they're gonna love us in
their own ways.

Hideko (23:05):
That's a great way to put it.
Yeah, we were definitelyintentional about and had many
conversations regarding itbecause we really wanted to not
just let nature take its courseand have the child who was born
through one parent have thatimmediate physical bond, which I
think is in some waysundeniable, it's going to be

(23:26):
there for most.
I'm not saying it happens to allthat.
But it was definitely there.
One of the things that I shouldmention is that I had a little
trouble with the breastfeedingand so three months into trying
and doing that, I ended upswitching to pumping in order to

(23:47):
provide breast milk to Yuki.
And I did that for nine monthsand it was brutal and I was
willing to make that sacrifice.
But the great thing that cameout of that was that Cherie was
unable to bottle feed as much asI was bottle feeding Yuki.
Sometimes maybe even more.
Cherie would allow me to sleepat night and that would allow

(24:10):
her to get a bottle and thenfeed at night.
And I didn't have to be the oneto wake up to do that.
I think one of the silverlinings there is that she really
did get to hold and feed Yuki asmuch as I did in those formative
years.
With you and Kaya, you ended upbreastfeeding longer than I did

(24:30):
and I think there's always goingto be that bond that they're
going to have as well.
We talked a little bit about ourroles and who we are as their
parents.
I think we do take on differentroles and they come to us for
different things and we havedifferent strengths that we have
as parents.
And so we play on thosestrengths and we really try and

(24:51):
keep it equal.
We don't want to create adynamic that makes it really
easy for our kids to favor oneof us over the other.
They're going to favor one of usover the other when it comes to
like, who do I go to when I wantto put a Lego set together, who
do I want to go to if I needhelp with my homework or I'm
having a problem with my friendsor if I want to kick a soccer
ball around and go for a bikeride?

Emily (25:12):
Cherie, you mentioned that Yuki was in the house for a
period while you were laboringand so was somewhat aware of
something going on.
How do you talk about yourfamily with your kids and their

(25:33):
own personal stories?
Do you have any tips for anybodywho's starting this journey or
struggling on how to broach someof those topics of who carried
and and donors?

Cherie (25:53):
I think that we have adopted the philosophy of trying
to share as much age appropriateinformation as possible from as
early as possible.
For me, anything I can do toavoid having a big talk where we
have to disclose someinformation that is new to them

(26:15):
is really key for us.
And I love using books to talkabout things with kids, like all
sorts of things.
So that's definitely somethingthat we've done.
And also just using photos andstories, family stories.
We have definitely talked withthem from a very early age about
who gave birth to them andthey've seen pictures of us both

(26:36):
pregnant.
Kids are very curious and theyask questions but they also move
on from things very quickly.
So a lot of this has been reallyeasy to talk about and it's been
kind of a a non-issue.
There's a couple of books that Ireally like and that we've used
talk kind of about how ourfamily was formed.
And one of them is called Zak'sSafari and it's a story of that

(27:00):
a young boy tells about hisconception story.
Basically he has two moms andthey use the sperm donor and
made a baby.
And that's very similar to ourstory.
So it made it really easy for usto kind of introduce the concept
in really nice like kid friendlyterms.
And then another book that Ireally love is What Makes a Baby

(27:20):
by Cory Silverberg.
And that's a great one to talkabout where babies come from and
how they're made.

Emily (27:28):
I love that.
It being in an age-appropriate,ongoing conversation rather than
a moment of a big reveal, whichmakes it all feel more steady
and natural and familiar for thekids.
And then for you, you're workingup to some big moment that then

(27:49):
puts stress or worry on to you.
I think that's so smart.

Cherie (27:54):
Another thing that's really important for us as a
family is to, as much aspossible, try and make
connections with other familiesthat look like ours and also
just families that don't looklike ours outside of the norm.
We have a pretty close group offriends that all identify as
lesbians and they have kids andso we try to stay connected with

(28:15):
them.
The kids are about the same ageand sometimes we'll meet up at
the park or go camping together.
But it's really nice for them tonot be the only one that has two
moms or doesn't have a dad orthings like that.
That's been definitely somethingthat we're always trying to do
too.

Emily (28:32):
Fantastic.
Any final thoughts?
Any final advice for thoughtsfor parents out there, for
future parents out there?

Cherie (28:44):
In thinking about the journeys that we took and the
concerns that we had aboutbonding with our children and
different relationships, I wouldjust say that being conscious
and being open about what'scoming up for you throughout the
process is really key.
And then being able tocommunicate with your partner
openly about it.
And sometimes it's just sayingit out loud.

(29:06):
Just being able to say somethingto the other adult but not
acting on it in front of yourchild.
Sometimes all you need is tolike be acknowledged and be sad
about it, but also rememberingthat it's not an intentional
thing a child doing.

(29:27):
And at the end, like I wassaying earlier, just really
defining the things that workfor you and your kid and really
working on that one-on-onerelationship.

Hideko (29:36):
You see why I love her?
I think only last words I wouldsay would just be talk with
people.
There are so many differentstories and so many experiences
and sometimes it can be dauntingbecause you go into a
comparative frame of mind aroundit and you just don't know what
your experience is going to be.
Knowledge is power and I thinkhaving had more knowledge at our

(29:59):
disposal, we might've madedifferent decisions, if we had
had some of the resourcesavailable.
I'm glad we were able to shiftafter my birth experience and
then Cherie was able to have adifferent one and our second
child be allowed a differentexperience.