July 2, 2019 • 35 mins
Each person who grows their family through pregnancy has their own journey. Something not as often discussed, the emotional, physical, and personal challenges postpartum.
The research is still growing, but that show patterns in how the pregnancy, birth, and postpartum journey uniquely impacts bi+ people. In this episode we discuss personal experiences, the findings of the research, and what we can do together to support bi+ folks.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Emily (00:00):
Before the episode starts, I just want to let you
know that this episode containssome frank discussions about
birth and birthing trauma andpostpartum depression and
psychosis.
If this is not something thatyou are comfortable listening
to, we just suggest that youlisten to one of our other great
(00:21):
episodes and just skip this onefor everyone else.
Enjoy the episode.
Each person who grows theirfamily through pregnancy has
(00:50):
their own journey, the ups anddowns of the two week wait,
navigating health insurance andmedical care and sometimes the
not as often discussed,emotional, physical, financial
and personal challenges.
The research is still growingbut we are seeing patterns in
how the pregnancy, birth, andthen postpartum journey uniquely
(01:13):
impacts bi+ people.
To discuss their ownexperiences, some of the
findings of the research, andwhat we can do together to
support bi+ folks, I have withme, Allison and Ann Marie.
Allison Coleman is the owner andfounder of Syler pregnancy and
family planning, which providesvirtual and in-person wellness
(01:34):
services to people who aretrying to conceive and currently
pregnant.
Allison has a bachelor's degreein psychology and master's
degree in social work.
Allison is openly bisexual and awife, mother of a two and a half
year old son Tyler.
Anne Marie Backstrom is a youngqueer mom, bisexual femme, and
political organizer living inthe Pacific northwest with her
(01:56):
daughter, her partner and theirfurry and feathered friends.
Anne Marie sits on the NARALPro-Choice Oregon PAC, is an
active member of Basic RightsOregon's Fierce Parents of
Transgender Youth Committee, andhas worked hard to e nsure that
prochoice and pro-LGBTQchampions have been elected up
(02:17):
and down the ballot in Oregon.
I'll start with t he questionthat I like to ask all guests.
Who is in your family and howwas it formed?
Allison (02:40):
So my family was formed via pregnancy.
I got pregnant on January 28,2016 I'll never forget that day
and gave birth to my son onOctober ninth of that year and
he was conceived by my spouseand I.
Anne Marie (03:04):
My journey to parenting and motherhood was
actually kind of interesting.
I'm a young mom.
I gave birth to my daughter whenI was 19 years old.
I grew up in a very religioushousehold that wasn't very
affirming of my bisexuality.
I got married young and we hadour wonderful, wonderful child
(03:26):
back in 2010.
My ex-husband and I, weseparated shortly after, but
we're able to co- parent reallywell.
And through the years I've haddifferent partners.
I've had relationships withpeople of many genders.
But through my advocacy andqueer rights, I actually ended
up meeting my life partner,Dominic, through my volunteer
(03:50):
work with Basic Rights Oregon.
So my family includes myself, myalmost nine year old daughter,
my partner, and my ex-husband.
And we just kind of all blend ittogether.
Emily (04:02):
Fabulous.
And what are some of yourfavorite things to do as a
family?
Anne Marie (04:09):
Both my partner and my ex-husband and my daughter
are very into video games.
So video gaming culture issomething that we definitely
engage in.
We're also very lucky.
I live in Portland, Oregon.
We have such a vibrant socialjustice community.
We have a vibrant queercommunity.
And with my daughter being trans, and myself being bisexual, we
(04:31):
really plug into a lot of queeradvocacy and events.
I'd say that we're just a verytypical family, but that blended
family and activism all blendedin.
Allison (04:45):
My son is young, he just turned two and a half, so
he's obsessed with Dora.
He's just a lot of fun.
He's so curious about everythingand I just love spending time
with him.
Emily (04:59):
Would talk some more about that journey to
parenthood.
Was it a long journey?
Was it something that you hadplanned for a long time?
Any sort of big experiences ortakeaways through that journey
(05:20):
to becoming a parent?
Allison (05:22):
My pregnancy honestly inspired me to start my own
companies.
I always knew I wanted to be amother.
When my spouse and I gotmarried, we want to wait a
little bit.
I was already in my thirties, soI didn't want to wait too long,
(05:46):
but you know, I wanted to enjoythe marriage.
After we had been married forabout a year, that's when we
started trying.
It just took several months.
I'm so thankful for acupuncture.
I started acupuncture and waspregnant really quick after that
happened.
So I was very thankful for that.
My pregnancy actually wentreally well.
(06:07):
I was very healthy, veryconscientious.
I don't know if I'll go into it,but my birth was quite
challenging, honestly, for myson and for all of us and led to
different things postpartum.
Anne Marie (06:27):
Like I said, briefly, I grew up in a family
that was really religious, thatwas not affirming of my queer
identity.
I always knew I wanted to be amom, just like you, Allson.
But it was kind of thisexpectation.
I had dated women primarily inhigh school, but then I met my
(06:49):
now ex-husband and we fell inlove and like many women in my
family, I got married right at18 out of high school and we got
pregnant pretty soon after.
People are always surprised, butwe did plan our pregnancy and I
was a little nervous in mypregnancy.
I am neurodivergent, so Istruggled ADHD and mental
(07:12):
illness my entire life.
I'm recovered from anorexia.
So I had a rough and challengingpregnancy just to stay healthy.
But I was so excited.
I was so excited to be pregnantand to meet my kiddo.
I was so excited to get on thispodcast because just like you
(07:33):
said, Allison, my pregnancy wasthis awesome, amazing
experience.
But when it came to birth andthe postpartum period, I didn't
feel prepared well for how myqueerness would affect me.
And also this idea of just thebirth and postpartum being
difficult and having challengescome up.
So that's how I grew my familyand my partner and I, down the
(07:58):
road, we're thinking of growingour family again.
I'm 28 and we're looking at itfrom this different perspective
and I feel just very blessed tohave gone the route that I did
back when I was 18 and 19 andnow be planning potentially for
another baby in the next fewyears and all the joy that can
come with that.
Emily (08:16):
Family Equality recently created a guide for bi+ people
in different sex relationships.
Though the research is limited,we're seeing the suggestion that
(08:37):
bi+ people who have children inthe context of different sex
relationships may be more likelyto experience depression and
anxiety symptoms in thepostpartum period.
Right now the speculation isthat during that transition to
parenthood, there is that lossof identity around sexual
orientation and a feeling ofdisconnection from the LGBTQ+
(08:59):
community.
There's not tons of research,but that's what we're starting
to really see.
And I would love to think aboutthat and unpack that together.
First is that speculation thatbi+ people who have kids in a
different sex relationship mightexperience that disconnection
(09:21):
from the LGBTQ+ community.
Does that feel relevant to you?
Is that any part of yourexperience?
Anne Marie (09:30):
Definitely.
I've had this experience.
I was married and then we got adivorce and we were
co-parenting.
And before meeting my currentpartner who is a cis-het man, I
dated people across variousgenders.
I've definitely noticed my owninternalized bi-phobia or my
(09:53):
connection with my own queernessand the qeer community really
change over the years dependingon if I'm in a relationship with
a woman or if I'm in arelationship with someone like
my current partner.
Through my pregnancy, givingbirth and postpartum, I felt a
very deep loss of my queeridentity.
My ex-husband, my daughter'sfather, was always wonderful and
(10:16):
has always affirmed myqueerness, but I think
especially in my religiousfamily, it was kind of this idea
of, oh, Anne Marie is straightnow.
Anne Marie got married and had ababy.
That phase of her life, it'sover.
And I didn't quite know where Ifit in pregnancy and the
postpartum period with the queercommunity.
I had my queer friends, but whenI would go to events, I saw
(10:38):
families that had a differentroute to pregnancy and growing
their family than I did.
And I always felt like I wasstraddling between these two
worlds of being a young marriedmom, married to a man, and also
being a very queer woman andapproaching my identity in
parenting as a queer woman.
(10:58):
There was this loss and alsothis sense of privilege and it
was hard to grapple with thatbecause with my ex-husband, and
now with my male partner, I canwalk through the world as a
appearing-straight person.
And I'm also cisgender and I'mwhite and I'm able to just walk
(11:19):
through the world and if I don'twant to claim that I'm queer, I
don't have to.
And when I've been inrelationships with women or
people of other genderidentities, that hasn't been the
case.
Now at 28, I feel a very firmand strong connection to my
queerness and my queercommunity.
(11:40):
But it was a journey.
Allison (11:41):
When I gave birth to my son, I was actually questioning
at the time.
I honestly was questioning formany years, but actually didn't
come out until two years ago.
So it's been quite a journey.
(12:03):
When we transition from being asingle person to a mother,
that's quite a transition rightthere.
And then on top of that I wasquestioning my sexuality and I
was even questioning my careerchoices.
(12:25):
After I gave birth I reallywanted to make that switch from
what I was doing to helping uppeople form their own families.
That was quite a trying time forme.
So, ever since I came out, it'sbeen wonderful.
I live here in the Bay Area andwe're very accepted.
(12:49):
I've received tremendoussupport.
Emily (12:52):
Were there moments where there was a feeling of loss of
identity or where your identitywas disconnected, through the
pregnancy and postpartum?
Was there a difference at all inhow you felt in queer spaces?
(13:19):
How connected you felt?
Anne Marie (13:27):
I've always had very affirming people in my life.
Even though it was rough with myfamily when I was growing up, my
mother has come around andreally learned to accept both me
and my kiddo for who we are.
But I think that there was thisdeep period, especially getting
(13:49):
married and having a baby at 18and 19, where I kind of had this
thought of maybe I can just bestraight in this world.
I was still grappling withreligion.
I don't identify as religiousanymore.
But I had this thought of, I canjust be a good mother, a good
wife, and I don't have to bequeer anymore.
(14:14):
I felt this sense of obligation,not just through my relationship
with religion and my family, butjust in this world.
It was definitely hard and itwas painful.
I mentioned before that I wentinto pregnancy knowing that I'm
neurodivergent and I'm prone topostpartum complications.
(14:36):
But I wasn't prepared for, and Iknow that we'll talk about this
later, was those postpartumoutcomes.
I was prepared for depression.
I was prepared for the babyblues.
Maybe my anxiety would getworse.
But after the birth of mydaughter I went through just
months of postpartum psychosisthat actually landed me in the
(14:56):
hospital.
I think internalized or outsideb i-phobia or homophobia
definitely played a part.
That idea of isolation,isolation from my community,
isolation within myself and myown identity.
What I want for all bisexual newparents, especially queer
(15:22):
parents, to know is that you canhold your identity, whatever
that identity is, and youridentity as a parent.
That they don't have to be inconflict, that they go hand in
hand.
I wish 10 years ago that I hadknown that.
I think would h ave stillstruggled with postpartum
(15:42):
depression and psychosis.
But I think it c ould h ave beeneasier.
Emily (15:48):
I can't imagine queer community spaces have always
been welcoming.
I would love to believe them tobe, but I know that bi-phobia is
real and that includes withinLGBTQ+ spaces.
(16:19):
Have you had challenges i nLGBTQ spaces and have you had
some really wonderfulexperiences that others c an
learn from?
Anne Marie (16:29):
I've definitely had both.
As you mentioned in my bio, I dopolitical organizing work and I
focus on reproductive freedom,queer and Trans rights, and
advocacy.
I definitely noticed when I'mpartnered with a woman or a
(16:49):
person who is not a cis man, Ifelt more, not accepted, but
less hesitant to join in queercelebrations and in queer
spaces.
My partner, he works in queerrights, but he's a straight man.
And I've noticed that even withmy well intentioned allies in
(17:11):
the work that we're doing, Iwill get kind of straight washed
of like, Anne Marie and she'spartnered with Dominic.
And I'm like, yes.
And that's not the whole story.
Regardless of who I'm partneredwith, regardless of my parenting
status, I am still a queerwoman.
I do still face thesechallenges.
(17:31):
You said this too Alison, butjust my confidence has grown so
much and I'm so much more vocalnow as an activist, as a mother.
I'm here and I'm queer and Iwant to use my privilege to help
other people, but I also want tobe seen as who I am.
(17:51):
Making that happen has been sopositive for our family.
I think both for me andespecially after my daughter
came out as trans.
We have this network of queerorganizations and queer
organizers and queer people justbehind us.
And as someone with familymembers that aren't always as
(18:13):
supportive and as affirming,it's been so great.
I really feel like I've beenable to build and grow this
community and I just want allother bisexual or questioning
parents to have the sameexperience and to be welcomed
into the queer community.
I see the work being done,especially here in Portland,
(18:35):
with all the amazing activistsand organizations.
But like you said, there's stillso much more we need to do to
make spaces more inclusivebecause, again, it's like that
straddling of two worlds, youknow.
I'm not quite a straight mom,but I'm also not quite queer
enough and where do we fit in?
Allison (18:58):
There's so much bias from straight people and also
from queer people.
It's like you're being judgedone way or another.
So that's hard, trying to findthat identity.
That's why I think it is hard inthe queer community, you're not
totally fitting in.
But then also we fit inmainstream society because we
(19:27):
live in a patriarchal culture.
I think it makes it hard andjust the different stereotypes
that are out there as well.
Anne Marie (19:35):
And I don't know about you Allison, but as I've
really come to terms with myselfand my queerness, I feel like a
more confident and competentmom.
I feel like I approach mymotherhood in such a different
way than when I had thisnegative self view about my
sexuality.
Emily (19:55):
I know really want to maybe switch a little bit.
You both now alluded to ortalked a little bit about your
pregnancy and birth experienceand then your postpartum
experience.
Would you just share more aboutwhat, what was some of your
birth experience and how youridentity, but also how you got
(20:18):
what you needed from family,friends and also from the
medical community?
Allison (20:32):
So I had to go in and be induced.
I went in for my 40 weekappointment and my gynecologist
said my amniotic fluid was low.
So she's like, you need to beinduced and aren't you ready to
(20:53):
give birth.
What ended up happening was thatit took four days.
They did all of these differentprocedures and then my son
actually almost died, when Istarted receiving Pitocin his
heart rate got significantly lowand I ended up having an
(21:17):
emergency c-section.
So just that whole experience ofbeing in labor for four days
andmy son almost died,thatreally took a toll on me.
So I didn't really actuallyrecognize that I was like
depressed.
(21:38):
I had a very pessimisticattitude about pregnancy.
My friends and family were like,oh, are you going to try again?
I'm like, no, I don't want to gothrough that again.
And honestly the turning pointfor me was my supervisor pulled
(21:59):
me in and she's like, I'm seeingthis big difference in you.
She's like, you know, before youwere pregnant, you were so
excited and passionate and nowyou're a completely different
person.
The only thing I know that'sdifferent is that you had a
baby.
I noticed then my workperformance is going down.
And even with my friends I wasalways just always down and
(22:25):
depressed.
I was like, you know what, Ithink I'm depressed.
So I started seeking therapy andthat was beneficial.
But once I acknowledged it, itreally was a turning point.
Like I said, at that time therewas just a lot going on, not
only with the depression that Iwas experiencing but also
(22:48):
questioning my identity, mybisexuality as well.
And that was a rough patchbecause of all the different
things I was going through.
I'm so thankful for the supportI received and since then it's
been really empowering, beingable to overcome all of that and
be who I am.
(23:08):
Being more confident and selfassured.
Anne Marie (23:11):
Allison and thank you for sharing that.
So I might be a littlestop-and-starty on this one.
It was hard.
I talked about my pregnancyearlier and I mentioned that I
live with neurodivergence.
I'm also a trauma survivor.
(23:33):
So when it came to my pregnancy,I have neurodivergence, but I
also have PTSD and an eatingdisorder and I lived with
depression and anxiety.
So my midwives really preppedme.
I stayed on antidepressantsthrough my whole pregnancy.
They prepped me that postpartumdepression was going to be very
(23:56):
likely and that they would bethere to support me through it.
When it came to birth, I wantedto have a very natural
childbirth.
So we were doing a water birthwith midwives in a hospital
setting.
But nobody prepared me for thefact that my labor could be 36
(24:16):
hours.
It was long.
And it was very scary andtraumatic for me.
Again, just being a traumasurvivor and being a very young
person, I had no idea what toexpect.
My birth was really long and Iwas pushing for almost five
hours.
And I remember they handed me mybaby after this.
(24:36):
I just, I looked at her and shewas so beautiful, but I was just
so out of it.
And I think that whether yourbirth is long and traumatic or
it's another kind of birth,there's just this kind of almost
association of, Oh, wow, there'sthis baby, but I'm exhausted.
I went home and I was preparedto have postpartum depression
(25:00):
and anxiety, but nobody evertalked to me- and this surprises
me now that I have a degree inpublic health education and I
focus on sexuality studies-nobody prepped me or even told
me the words postpartumpsychosis.
Even though I'd been dealingwith mental health my whole
life.
I definitely heard of psychoticepisodes happening with severe
(25:23):
depression.
I felt really lonely.
My, my husband worked while Istayed at home as a stay at home
mom and he had to work longhours to support our really
young family.
And I found staying home alonewhile all my friends were 18,
19, living their lives, I wasreally lonely.
(25:45):
I was really isolated anddepressed and I didn't even
notice when it slipped into thebaby blues to postpartum
depression to then thatpsychosis.
And it was scary.
I didn't know what to do.
I didn't know who to reach outto for help.
I thought that if I told someonethat I was having these
(26:06):
psychotic symptoms, they wouldtake my baby away or say that I
was a bad mother.
I was really scared.
I thought that it was my fault,that I was doing something
wrong.
I didn't know that this is acondition that can happen after
anyone kid's birth.
So it was hard.
I had my husband there and hewas my support person, but he
(26:27):
couldn't be everything.
No one can be everything.
I just fell deeper and deeperinto that depression and
psychosis.
I relapsed in my eating disorderand it got so bad that
eventually I tried to end mylife.
I spent some time in thehospital after my suicide
(26:49):
attempt and they diagnosed mewith postpartum psychosis and
they helped me.
I got therapy, I got medication.
I got well again and I'm stillhere.
I'm still a mom to my daughterand I'm so thankful.
But I spent her first birthdayin the hospital getting well,
and I firmly believe that somuch of that could have been
(27:12):
prevented if it was talkedabout.
If it was talked about by thecommunity, by my midwives, by
just society as a whole.
I love that we're talking moreabout postpartum depression in
the media and in the world.
We need to be more open aboutit.
I've always been scared to sharethis story cause I'm like, Oh
(27:34):
God, what are these people gonnathink of me as a mother.
But it's real and it happens andI'm here today and I'm safe and
healthy and my child is safe andhealthy.
But, you know, I just wish thatevery parent could get help
before that breaking point orlike you were saying Allison,
before things were getting badat work and at home and
(27:54):
everything just felt sooverwhelming.
It's interesting, through all ofthat, I've really been able to
bond with my kiddo.
My daughter is my best friend.
She's almost nine.
She's the coolest kid I know.
It's been such an incrediblejourney, but I know moving
(28:14):
forward, I want to look atgrowing my family in a very
different way in the future.
If I do choose to have anotherchild, which I think that in the
coming years I will, I don'tknow if I want to be pregnant
myself again.
We've looked into surrogacy,adoption, all these other ways
to grow a family.
(28:35):
And it's interesting in terms ofmy queerness cuz in these queer
parenting spaces, I know a lotof queer parents look to those
options as well.
But it's very different when I'min a same sex relationship and
kind of how that's viewed.
So much goes into not justpregnancy, but those birth
experiences and those postpartumexperiences and we need to be
(28:57):
more open about them.
And I think doubly so forparents that don't fit that
cis-het binary mold of what afamily looks like.
Emily (29:09):
What do you wish you had been alerted to be on the
lookout for that maybe wouldhave helped you realize what was
happening a little bit sooner?
Anne Marie (29:22):
I think for me, I was prepped for the depression
and for my eating disorder, so Iwas able to get treatment.
I relapsed in the eatingdisorder.
I was able to go to a treatmentprogram and get a little better.
But I wish that when my midwivesor parenting classes had sat
down and really talk to me aboutwhat to look for with my mental
illness, I wished that they hadjust said the words, this is
(29:44):
rare, but postpartum psychosisexists in a small amount of
people that have given birth andthis is what it looks like.
I wouldn't have wanted to bescared, like you're going to get
this.
But I wish someone would havejust said the words because when
it was happening, I thought thatI was going crazy.
I thought that I was a badparent.
(30:09):
I didn't know that it couldhappen and it could be tied to
birth and postpartum.
So I really just wish thatsomeone had said something the
way they did with my depressionand with my anorexia.
Emily (30:21):
It's almost like if you don't know what symptoms to be
looking for, then when theyhappen you can't address it and
you can't recognize it and getthat help.
Anne Marie (30:31):
When I went to the hospital and was getting treated
for the psychosis, I brought upthat fear that I was scared that
if I went and told my midwife ormy therapist they were going to
take my baby.
And I was told resoundinglylike, no, we would have
diagnosed you with postpartumpsychosis and we would've helped
you sooner.
And I just, I wish I would haveknown that.
Allison (30:52):
I think our society, not only the medical providers,
but also family, friends, lovedones, should still give that
attention postpartum.
When you're pregnant, everyonegives you attention., They
always want to know how you'redoing, opening doors for you and
(31:15):
all that stuff.
That's how our culture is,because you're pregnant, you get
all this attention.
Even when I would see mygynecologist, I was always
screened for depression andanxiety.
So they always do that, butafterwards it's all about your
(31:36):
baby.
And not to say that that's a badthing, I mean, it's very
important.
It's a innocent baby and youdefinitely need to be taking
care of it.
The mother needs to be takencare of as well.
All that attention should bedevoted to the mother and the
child also.
Emily (31:51):
What advice do you have for bi+ people anywhere in their
parenting journey?
Is there something that you wishyou had known during your own
journey that you might say toany bi+ folks listening?
Anne Marie (32:10):
Oh Man.
There's a lot that I could putin there.
I think first of all, I wouldsay you are bi+ or queer or
however you identify.
You are enough.
You are bi.
You are valid.
You are in our community andyou're a vital part of our
(32:30):
community.
I would say try to not lose thatin yourself regardless of what
your parenting and relationshipstatus looks like.
You are still part of ourcommunity.
Find your people.
(32:51):
Find who your people are andthat can look like many
different things.
I know that my people are bi+and they're queer and they're
active in the queer and transCommunity.
And those are my people.
And I wish that I would've spenttime with those people and been
involved with those people in mypregnancy and postpartum the way
(33:13):
that I am now in my later stagesof parenting.
Don't be afraid to ask for helpand support.
I think that a lot of times whenyou're a new parent, whether
you're a parent who has givenbirth or you're a parent who
hasn't given birth, there's somuch pressure to have all the
answers.
(33:33):
Kids don't come with a'How to'guide.
And so don't be afraid to reachout to your care providers or
your family or your chosenfamily or your friends and say,
Hey, I'm struggling.
I need some support.
Or Hey, I'm not struggling but Idon't want to struggle.
I need some help.
Just remember that yourbi+identity, your queer identity
(33:59):
is not in conflict with youridentity as a parent.
It's just a beautiful, beautifuladdition to it.
Allison (34:05):
My advice is to be a role model being who you are.
That takes confidence.
And you can inspire someoneelse, as well as your baby.
When you're confident with whoyou are, you're setting an
(34:26):
example for your baby because wedon't know if they're going to
end up being queer or thedifferent things they'll go
through.
And they're going to look to youfor that.
So be inspiration.
Be yourself and remember thatyou're setting an example for
the future.
Before the episode starts, I just want to let you
know that this episode containssome frank discussions about
birth and birthing trauma andpostpartum depression and
psychosis.
If this is not something thatyou are comfortable listening
to, we just suggest that youlisten to one of our other great
(00:21):
episodes and just skip this onefor everyone else.
Enjoy the episode.
Each person who grows theirfamily through pregnancy has
(00:50):
their own journey, the ups anddowns of the two week wait,
navigating health insurance andmedical care and sometimes the
not as often discussed,emotional, physical, financial
and personal challenges.
The research is still growingbut we are seeing patterns in
how the pregnancy, birth, andthen postpartum journey uniquely
(01:13):
impacts bi+ people.
To discuss their ownexperiences, some of the
findings of the research, andwhat we can do together to
support bi+ folks, I have withme, Allison and Ann Marie.
Allison Coleman is the owner andfounder of Syler pregnancy and
family planning, which providesvirtual and in-person wellness
(01:34):
services to people who aretrying to conceive and currently
pregnant.
Allison has a bachelor's degreein psychology and master's
degree in social work.
Allison is openly bisexual and awife, mother of a two and a half
year old son Tyler.
Anne Marie Backstrom is a youngqueer mom, bisexual femme, and
political organizer living inthe Pacific northwest with her
(01:56):
daughter, her partner and theirfurry and feathered friends.
Anne Marie sits on the NARALPro-Choice Oregon PAC, is an
active member of Basic RightsOregon's Fierce Parents of
Transgender Youth Committee, andhas worked hard to e nsure that
prochoice and pro-LGBTQchampions have been elected up
(02:17):
and down the ballot in Oregon.
I'll start with t he questionthat I like to ask all guests.
Who is in your family and howwas it formed?
Allison (02:40):
So my family was formed via pregnancy.
I got pregnant on January 28,2016 I'll never forget that day
and gave birth to my son onOctober ninth of that year and
he was conceived by my spouseand I.
Anne Marie (03:04):
My journey to parenting and motherhood was
actually kind of interesting.
I'm a young mom.
I gave birth to my daughter whenI was 19 years old.
I grew up in a very religioushousehold that wasn't very
affirming of my bisexuality.
I got married young and we hadour wonderful, wonderful child
(03:26):
back in 2010.
My ex-husband and I, weseparated shortly after, but
we're able to co- parent reallywell.
And through the years I've haddifferent partners.
I've had relationships withpeople of many genders.
But through my advocacy andqueer rights, I actually ended
up meeting my life partner,Dominic, through my volunteer
(03:50):
work with Basic Rights Oregon.
So my family includes myself, myalmost nine year old daughter,
my partner, and my ex-husband.
And we just kind of all blend ittogether.
Emily (04:02):
Fabulous.
And what are some of yourfavorite things to do as a
family?
Anne Marie (04:09):
Both my partner and my ex-husband and my daughter
are very into video games.
So video gaming culture issomething that we definitely
engage in.
We're also very lucky.
I live in Portland, Oregon.
We have such a vibrant socialjustice community.
We have a vibrant queercommunity.
And with my daughter being trans, and myself being bisexual, we
(04:31):
really plug into a lot of queeradvocacy and events.
I'd say that we're just a verytypical family, but that blended
family and activism all blendedin.
Allison (04:45):
My son is young, he just turned two and a half, so
he's obsessed with Dora.
He's just a lot of fun.
He's so curious about everythingand I just love spending time
with him.
Emily (04:59):
Would talk some more about that journey to
parenthood.
Was it a long journey?
Was it something that you hadplanned for a long time?
Any sort of big experiences ortakeaways through that journey
(05:20):
to becoming a parent?
Allison (05:22):
My pregnancy honestly inspired me to start my own
companies.
I always knew I wanted to be amother.
When my spouse and I gotmarried, we want to wait a
little bit.
I was already in my thirties, soI didn't want to wait too long,
(05:46):
but you know, I wanted to enjoythe marriage.
After we had been married forabout a year, that's when we
started trying.
It just took several months.
I'm so thankful for acupuncture.
I started acupuncture and waspregnant really quick after that
happened.
So I was very thankful for that.
My pregnancy actually wentreally well.
(06:07):
I was very healthy, veryconscientious.
I don't know if I'll go into it,but my birth was quite
challenging, honestly, for myson and for all of us and led to
different things postpartum.
Anne Marie (06:27):
Like I said, briefly, I grew up in a family
that was really religious, thatwas not affirming of my queer
identity.
I always knew I wanted to be amom, just like you, Allson.
But it was kind of thisexpectation.
I had dated women primarily inhigh school, but then I met my
(06:49):
now ex-husband and we fell inlove and like many women in my
family, I got married right at18 out of high school and we got
pregnant pretty soon after.
People are always surprised, butwe did plan our pregnancy and I
was a little nervous in mypregnancy.
I am neurodivergent, so Istruggled ADHD and mental
(07:12):
illness my entire life.
I'm recovered from anorexia.
So I had a rough and challengingpregnancy just to stay healthy.
But I was so excited.
I was so excited to be pregnantand to meet my kiddo.
I was so excited to get on thispodcast because just like you
(07:33):
said, Allison, my pregnancy wasthis awesome, amazing
experience.
But when it came to birth andthe postpartum period, I didn't
feel prepared well for how myqueerness would affect me.
And also this idea of just thebirth and postpartum being
difficult and having challengescome up.
So that's how I grew my familyand my partner and I, down the
(07:58):
road, we're thinking of growingour family again.
I'm 28 and we're looking at itfrom this different perspective
and I feel just very blessed tohave gone the route that I did
back when I was 18 and 19 andnow be planning potentially for
another baby in the next fewyears and all the joy that can
come with that.
Emily (08:16):
Family Equality recently created a guide for bi+ people
in different sex relationships.
Though the research is limited,we're seeing the suggestion that
(08:37):
bi+ people who have children inthe context of different sex
relationships may be more likelyto experience depression and
anxiety symptoms in thepostpartum period.
Right now the speculation isthat during that transition to
parenthood, there is that lossof identity around sexual
orientation and a feeling ofdisconnection from the LGBTQ+
(08:59):
community.
There's not tons of research,but that's what we're starting
to really see.
And I would love to think aboutthat and unpack that together.
First is that speculation thatbi+ people who have kids in a
different sex relationship mightexperience that disconnection
(09:21):
from the LGBTQ+ community.
Does that feel relevant to you?
Is that any part of yourexperience?
Anne Marie (09:30):
Definitely.
I've had this experience.
I was married and then we got adivorce and we were
co-parenting.
And before meeting my currentpartner who is a cis-het man, I
dated people across variousgenders.
I've definitely noticed my owninternalized bi-phobia or my
(09:53):
connection with my own queernessand the qeer community really
change over the years dependingon if I'm in a relationship with
a woman or if I'm in arelationship with someone like
my current partner.
Through my pregnancy, givingbirth and postpartum, I felt a
very deep loss of my queeridentity.
My ex-husband, my daughter'sfather, was always wonderful and
(10:16):
has always affirmed myqueerness, but I think
especially in my religiousfamily, it was kind of this idea
of, oh, Anne Marie is straightnow.
Anne Marie got married and had ababy.
That phase of her life, it'sover.
And I didn't quite know where Ifit in pregnancy and the
postpartum period with the queercommunity.
I had my queer friends, but whenI would go to events, I saw
(10:38):
families that had a differentroute to pregnancy and growing
their family than I did.
And I always felt like I wasstraddling between these two
worlds of being a young marriedmom, married to a man, and also
being a very queer woman andapproaching my identity in
parenting as a queer woman.
(10:58):
There was this loss and alsothis sense of privilege and it
was hard to grapple with thatbecause with my ex-husband, and
now with my male partner, I canwalk through the world as a
appearing-straight person.
And I'm also cisgender and I'mwhite and I'm able to just walk
(11:19):
through the world and if I don'twant to claim that I'm queer, I
don't have to.
And when I've been inrelationships with women or
people of other genderidentities, that hasn't been the
case.
Now at 28, I feel a very firmand strong connection to my
queerness and my queercommunity.
(11:40):
But it was a journey.
Allison (11:41):
When I gave birth to my son, I was actually questioning
at the time.
I honestly was questioning formany years, but actually didn't
come out until two years ago.
So it's been quite a journey.
(12:03):
When we transition from being asingle person to a mother,
that's quite a transition rightthere.
And then on top of that I wasquestioning my sexuality and I
was even questioning my careerchoices.
(12:25):
After I gave birth I reallywanted to make that switch from
what I was doing to helping uppeople form their own families.
That was quite a trying time forme.
So, ever since I came out, it'sbeen wonderful.
I live here in the Bay Area andwe're very accepted.
(12:49):
I've received tremendoussupport.
Emily (12:52):
Were there moments where there was a feeling of loss of
identity or where your identitywas disconnected, through the
pregnancy and postpartum?
Was there a difference at all inhow you felt in queer spaces?
(13:19):
How connected you felt?
Anne Marie (13:27):
I've always had very affirming people in my life.
Even though it was rough with myfamily when I was growing up, my
mother has come around andreally learned to accept both me
and my kiddo for who we are.
But I think that there was thisdeep period, especially getting
(13:49):
married and having a baby at 18and 19, where I kind of had this
thought of maybe I can just bestraight in this world.
I was still grappling withreligion.
I don't identify as religiousanymore.
But I had this thought of, I canjust be a good mother, a good
wife, and I don't have to bequeer anymore.
(14:14):
I felt this sense of obligation,not just through my relationship
with religion and my family, butjust in this world.
It was definitely hard and itwas painful.
I mentioned before that I wentinto pregnancy knowing that I'm
neurodivergent and I'm prone topostpartum complications.
(14:36):
But I wasn't prepared for, and Iknow that we'll talk about this
later, was those postpartumoutcomes.
I was prepared for depression.
I was prepared for the babyblues.
Maybe my anxiety would getworse.
But after the birth of mydaughter I went through just
months of postpartum psychosisthat actually landed me in the
(14:56):
hospital.
I think internalized or outsideb i-phobia or homophobia
definitely played a part.
That idea of isolation,isolation from my community,
isolation within myself and myown identity.
What I want for all bisexual newparents, especially queer
(15:22):
parents, to know is that you canhold your identity, whatever
that identity is, and youridentity as a parent.
That they don't have to be inconflict, that they go hand in
hand.
I wish 10 years ago that I hadknown that.
I think would h ave stillstruggled with postpartum
(15:42):
depression and psychosis.
But I think it c ould h ave beeneasier.
Emily (15:48):
I can't imagine queer community spaces have always
been welcoming.
I would love to believe them tobe, but I know that bi-phobia is
real and that includes withinLGBTQ+ spaces.
(16:19):
Have you had challenges i nLGBTQ spaces and have you had
some really wonderfulexperiences that others c an
learn from?
Anne Marie (16:29):
I've definitely had both.
As you mentioned in my bio, I dopolitical organizing work and I
focus on reproductive freedom,queer and Trans rights, and
advocacy.
I definitely noticed when I'mpartnered with a woman or a
(16:49):
person who is not a cis man, Ifelt more, not accepted, but
less hesitant to join in queercelebrations and in queer
spaces.
My partner, he works in queerrights, but he's a straight man.
And I've noticed that even withmy well intentioned allies in
(17:11):
the work that we're doing, Iwill get kind of straight washed
of like, Anne Marie and she'spartnered with Dominic.
And I'm like, yes.
And that's not the whole story.
Regardless of who I'm partneredwith, regardless of my parenting
status, I am still a queerwoman.
I do still face thesechallenges.
(17:31):
You said this too Alison, butjust my confidence has grown so
much and I'm so much more vocalnow as an activist, as a mother.
I'm here and I'm queer and Iwant to use my privilege to help
other people, but I also want tobe seen as who I am.
(17:51):
Making that happen has been sopositive for our family.
I think both for me andespecially after my daughter
came out as trans.
We have this network of queerorganizations and queer
organizers and queer people justbehind us.
And as someone with familymembers that aren't always as
(18:13):
supportive and as affirming,it's been so great.
I really feel like I've beenable to build and grow this
community and I just want allother bisexual or questioning
parents to have the sameexperience and to be welcomed
into the queer community.
I see the work being done,especially here in Portland,
(18:35):
with all the amazing activistsand organizations.
But like you said, there's stillso much more we need to do to
make spaces more inclusivebecause, again, it's like that
straddling of two worlds, youknow.
I'm not quite a straight mom,but I'm also not quite queer
enough and where do we fit in?
Allison (18:58):
There's so much bias from straight people and also
from queer people.
It's like you're being judgedone way or another.
So that's hard, trying to findthat identity.
That's why I think it is hard inthe queer community, you're not
totally fitting in.
But then also we fit inmainstream society because we
(19:27):
live in a patriarchal culture.
I think it makes it hard andjust the different stereotypes
that are out there as well.
Anne Marie (19:35):
And I don't know about you Allison, but as I've
really come to terms with myselfand my queerness, I feel like a
more confident and competentmom.
I feel like I approach mymotherhood in such a different
way than when I had thisnegative self view about my
sexuality.
Emily (19:55):
I know really want to maybe switch a little bit.
You both now alluded to ortalked a little bit about your
pregnancy and birth experienceand then your postpartum
experience.
Would you just share more aboutwhat, what was some of your
birth experience and how youridentity, but also how you got
(20:18):
what you needed from family,friends and also from the
medical community?
Allison (20:32):
So I had to go in and be induced.
I went in for my 40 weekappointment and my gynecologist
said my amniotic fluid was low.
So she's like, you need to beinduced and aren't you ready to
(20:53):
give birth.
What ended up happening was thatit took four days.
They did all of these differentprocedures and then my son
actually almost died, when Istarted receiving Pitocin his
heart rate got significantly lowand I ended up having an
(21:17):
emergency c-section.
So just that whole experience ofbeing in labor for four days
andmy son almost died,thatreally took a toll on me.
So I didn't really actuallyrecognize that I was like
depressed.
(21:38):
I had a very pessimisticattitude about pregnancy.
My friends and family were like,oh, are you going to try again?
I'm like, no, I don't want to gothrough that again.
And honestly the turning pointfor me was my supervisor pulled
(21:59):
me in and she's like, I'm seeingthis big difference in you.
She's like, you know, before youwere pregnant, you were so
excited and passionate and nowyou're a completely different
person.
The only thing I know that'sdifferent is that you had a
baby.
I noticed then my workperformance is going down.
And even with my friends I wasalways just always down and
(22:25):
depressed.
I was like, you know what, Ithink I'm depressed.
So I started seeking therapy andthat was beneficial.
But once I acknowledged it, itreally was a turning point.
Like I said, at that time therewas just a lot going on, not
only with the depression that Iwas experiencing but also
(22:48):
questioning my identity, mybisexuality as well.
And that was a rough patchbecause of all the different
things I was going through.
I'm so thankful for the supportI received and since then it's
been really empowering, beingable to overcome all of that and
be who I am.
(23:08):
Being more confident and selfassured.
Anne Marie (23:11):
Allison and thank you for sharing that.
So I might be a littlestop-and-starty on this one.
It was hard.
I talked about my pregnancyearlier and I mentioned that I
live with neurodivergence.
I'm also a trauma survivor.
(23:33):
So when it came to my pregnancy,I have neurodivergence, but I
also have PTSD and an eatingdisorder and I lived with
depression and anxiety.
So my midwives really preppedme.
I stayed on antidepressantsthrough my whole pregnancy.
They prepped me that postpartumdepression was going to be very
(23:56):
likely and that they would bethere to support me through it.
When it came to birth, I wantedto have a very natural
childbirth.
So we were doing a water birthwith midwives in a hospital
setting.
But nobody prepared me for thefact that my labor could be 36
(24:16):
hours.
It was long.
And it was very scary andtraumatic for me.
Again, just being a traumasurvivor and being a very young
person, I had no idea what toexpect.
My birth was really long and Iwas pushing for almost five
hours.
And I remember they handed me mybaby after this.
(24:36):
I just, I looked at her and shewas so beautiful, but I was just
so out of it.
And I think that whether yourbirth is long and traumatic or
it's another kind of birth,there's just this kind of almost
association of, Oh, wow, there'sthis baby, but I'm exhausted.
I went home and I was preparedto have postpartum depression
(25:00):
and anxiety, but nobody evertalked to me- and this surprises
me now that I have a degree inpublic health education and I
focus on sexuality studies-nobody prepped me or even told
me the words postpartumpsychosis.
Even though I'd been dealingwith mental health my whole
life.
I definitely heard of psychoticepisodes happening with severe
(25:23):
depression.
I felt really lonely.
My, my husband worked while Istayed at home as a stay at home
mom and he had to work longhours to support our really
young family.
And I found staying home alonewhile all my friends were 18,
19, living their lives, I wasreally lonely.
(25:45):
I was really isolated anddepressed and I didn't even
notice when it slipped into thebaby blues to postpartum
depression to then thatpsychosis.
And it was scary.
I didn't know what to do.
I didn't know who to reach outto for help.
I thought that if I told someonethat I was having these
(26:06):
psychotic symptoms, they wouldtake my baby away or say that I
was a bad mother.
I was really scared.
I thought that it was my fault,that I was doing something
wrong.
I didn't know that this is acondition that can happen after
anyone kid's birth.
So it was hard.
I had my husband there and hewas my support person, but he
(26:27):
couldn't be everything.
No one can be everything.
I just fell deeper and deeperinto that depression and
psychosis.
I relapsed in my eating disorderand it got so bad that
eventually I tried to end mylife.
I spent some time in thehospital after my suicide
(26:49):
attempt and they diagnosed mewith postpartum psychosis and
they helped me.
I got therapy, I got medication.
I got well again and I'm stillhere.
I'm still a mom to my daughterand I'm so thankful.
But I spent her first birthdayin the hospital getting well,
and I firmly believe that somuch of that could have been
(27:12):
prevented if it was talkedabout.
If it was talked about by thecommunity, by my midwives, by
just society as a whole.
I love that we're talking moreabout postpartum depression in
the media and in the world.
We need to be more open aboutit.
I've always been scared to sharethis story cause I'm like, Oh
(27:34):
God, what are these people gonnathink of me as a mother.
But it's real and it happens andI'm here today and I'm safe and
healthy and my child is safe andhealthy.
But, you know, I just wish thatevery parent could get help
before that breaking point orlike you were saying Allison,
before things were getting badat work and at home and
(27:54):
everything just felt sooverwhelming.
It's interesting, through all ofthat, I've really been able to
bond with my kiddo.
My daughter is my best friend.
She's almost nine.
She's the coolest kid I know.
It's been such an incrediblejourney, but I know moving
(28:14):
forward, I want to look atgrowing my family in a very
different way in the future.
If I do choose to have anotherchild, which I think that in the
coming years I will, I don'tknow if I want to be pregnant
myself again.
We've looked into surrogacy,adoption, all these other ways
to grow a family.
(28:35):
And it's interesting in terms ofmy queerness cuz in these queer
parenting spaces, I know a lotof queer parents look to those
options as well.
But it's very different when I'min a same sex relationship and
kind of how that's viewed.
So much goes into not justpregnancy, but those birth
experiences and those postpartumexperiences and we need to be
(28:57):
more open about them.
And I think doubly so forparents that don't fit that
cis-het binary mold of what afamily looks like.
Emily (29:09):
What do you wish you had been alerted to be on the
lookout for that maybe wouldhave helped you realize what was
happening a little bit sooner?
Anne Marie (29:22):
I think for me, I was prepped for the depression
and for my eating disorder, so Iwas able to get treatment.
I relapsed in the eatingdisorder.
I was able to go to a treatmentprogram and get a little better.
But I wish that when my midwivesor parenting classes had sat
down and really talk to me aboutwhat to look for with my mental
illness, I wished that they hadjust said the words, this is
(29:44):
rare, but postpartum psychosisexists in a small amount of
people that have given birth andthis is what it looks like.
I wouldn't have wanted to bescared, like you're going to get
this.
But I wish someone would havejust said the words because when
it was happening, I thought thatI was going crazy.
I thought that I was a badparent.
(30:09):
I didn't know that it couldhappen and it could be tied to
birth and postpartum.
So I really just wish thatsomeone had said something the
way they did with my depressionand with my anorexia.
Emily (30:21):
It's almost like if you don't know what symptoms to be
looking for, then when theyhappen you can't address it and
you can't recognize it and getthat help.
Anne Marie (30:31):
When I went to the hospital and was getting treated
for the psychosis, I brought upthat fear that I was scared that
if I went and told my midwife ormy therapist they were going to
take my baby.
And I was told resoundinglylike, no, we would have
diagnosed you with postpartumpsychosis and we would've helped
you sooner.
And I just, I wish I would haveknown that.
Allison (30:52):
I think our society, not only the medical providers,
but also family, friends, lovedones, should still give that
attention postpartum.
When you're pregnant, everyonegives you attention., They
always want to know how you'redoing, opening doors for you and
(31:15):
all that stuff.
That's how our culture is,because you're pregnant, you get
all this attention.
Even when I would see mygynecologist, I was always
screened for depression andanxiety.
So they always do that, butafterwards it's all about your
(31:36):
baby.
And not to say that that's a badthing, I mean, it's very
important.
It's a innocent baby and youdefinitely need to be taking
care of it.
The mother needs to be takencare of as well.
All that attention should bedevoted to the mother and the
child also.
Emily (31:51):
What advice do you have for bi+ people anywhere in their
parenting journey?
Is there something that you wishyou had known during your own
journey that you might say toany bi+ folks listening?
Anne Marie (32:10):
Oh Man.
There's a lot that I could putin there.
I think first of all, I wouldsay you are bi+ or queer or
however you identify.
You are enough.
You are bi.
You are valid.
You are in our community andyou're a vital part of our
(32:30):
community.
I would say try to not lose thatin yourself regardless of what
your parenting and relationshipstatus looks like.
You are still part of ourcommunity.
Find your people.
(32:51):
Find who your people are andthat can look like many
different things.
I know that my people are bi+and they're queer and they're
active in the queer and transCommunity.
And those are my people.
And I wish that I would've spenttime with those people and been
involved with those people in mypregnancy and postpartum the way
(33:13):
that I am now in my later stagesof parenting.
Don't be afraid to ask for helpand support.
I think that a lot of times whenyou're a new parent, whether
you're a parent who has givenbirth or you're a parent who
hasn't given birth, there's somuch pressure to have all the
answers.
(33:33):
Kids don't come with a'How to'guide.
And so don't be afraid to reachout to your care providers or
your family or your chosenfamily or your friends and say,
Hey, I'm struggling.
I need some support.
Or Hey, I'm not struggling but Idon't want to struggle.
I need some help.
Just remember that yourbi+identity, your queer identity
(33:59):
is not in conflict with youridentity as a parent.
It's just a beautiful, beautifuladdition to it.
Allison (34:05):
My advice is to be a role model being who you are.
That takes confidence.
And you can inspire someoneelse, as well as your baby.
When you're confident with whoyou are, you're setting an
(34:26):
example for your baby because wedon't know if they're going to
end up being queer or thedifferent things they'll go
through.
And they're going to look to youfor that.
So be inspiration.
Be yourself and remember thatyou're setting an example for
the future.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.