Mastering Gun Safety with Expert Insights, Part 2

In this compelling episode, Jim O'Brien reunites with his good buddy Denis Haynes to finally wrap up their crucial discussion on gun safety. After nearly a year since their first chat, they dive back into the critical rules that every gun owner should know and practice. From Jeff Cooper's top four safety commandments to the NRA's guidelines and even the golden rules for handling firearms, Jim and Denis leave no stone unturned.

Listeners will find themselves engrossed as the duo covers a myriad of scenarios, from range safety and hunting protocols to the do's and don'ts of gun shops. They also touch on the importance of gun maintenance and cleaning, emphasizing that a clean gun is a safe gun. And for those with children, they delve into the NRA's Eddie the Eagle program, ensuring even the youngest members of the household know what to do if they encounter a firearm.

Whether you're a seasoned shooter or new to the world of firearms, this episode promises valuable insights and practical advice, all delivered with a mix of seriousness and camaraderie. Tune in and make sure you're equipped with the knowledge to handle guns safely and responsibly.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Music.

(00:11):
Hello and welcome to another episode of The Self-Initiative Project Podcast.
I'm your host, Jim O'Brien. Episode 10, we finally get back around to continuing
on the topic of gun safety.
Part 2, we've got Denis Haynes back with us, my good buddy back with us,
to continue the discussion of gun safety again. How are you, Denis?

(00:33):
Hey, Jim. Thank you for having me back. This has been a long time coming.
We said we were going to immediately have Part 2, And here we are almost a year
later, finally getting around to wrapping up the discussion of gun safety.
Finally, at last. So good times. Yeah. So in our first part,
I think we primarily covered Jeff Cooper's top four gun safety rules.

(00:57):
And so just real quick before we get into tonight's topics, because we've got
some other rules to cover.
And, you know, we joked around some last time, I think, about the redundancy.
You know, and I say it a lot too, redundancy, redundancy, redundancy, right?
So across these different, depending on the source of the gun safety rules that
we talk about, there are some overlaps.

(01:19):
There is some redundancies, but that's okay.
So Jeff Cooper's four rules, number one, we're just going to breeze through
these as a recap. Number one is all guns are always loaded.
You treat every gun as if it was loaded at all times.
And like I've said before, that kind of of sets the precedence in my mind for the rest of these.
But number two is never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.

(01:44):
Always be aware of the business end of that barrel and where it's pointing and
make sure it's pointing at not at anything you don't want to shoot intentionally
or accidentally or otherwise.
Number three, keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target
and you're ready to shoot.
Self-explanatory, fingers should be off the trigger and outside the trigger guard.

(02:06):
And last but not least, number four, be sure of your target and what's around it.
In other words, don't take the shot unless you're sure you've got a clear shot
and there's nothing behind that target that you're going to hit that you're
not meaning to hit. Do you have anything to add to that?
No, I think you hit it spot on. You know, being familiar with the rules myself,
you know, the third rule, keep your finger off the trigger, I think is most important.

(02:28):
And, you know, we see a lot of stories on the news and even in television where
a lot of accidental discharges is primarily because someone had their finger
on the trigger when they're not ready to pull the trigger. And it causes an accidental discharge.
Absolutely. And, you know, I think we briefly touched on that in the first podcast.

(02:48):
And, you know, part one of gun safety was actually the very first podcast that
we ever did, the self-initiative project.
So that's kind of exciting in and of itself. But I remember us talking about
the trigger and, you know, it seems like in Hollywood and on TV and the movies,
whatever, anytime somebody is handling a firearm,

(03:09):
whether a good guy or a bad guy, their finger seems to be more oftentimes than
not on the trigger, even when they're not shooting, even when they're just holding
or carrying the firearm with them, their fingers always on the trigger.
So you make an excellent point.
Keep that, you know, some of the guys say, keep the booger picker off the bang switch.
And I couldn't agree more. That's an important one for sure.

(03:31):
You know, Jim, I have to say, I'm a big zombie guy, right?
And one of my favorite movies is World War Z. Brad Pitt, right?
Yes, Brad Pitt. The scientist that was supposed to save the world because he
knew what was going on, when they got into the heat of it, he got scared,

(03:52):
turned around and ran away, had his firearm,
his pistol out, and tripped and fell.
On because his hand was on his finger was on the trigger he shot
himself in the head yeah yeah i thought i
thought i thought you don't follow gun safety at all
just just the basic yeah that that happened so i and in in fairness there have

(04:15):
been some shows and you know i'm not going to name show names or anything like
that but there have been some shows in more recent past where if i I were honest,
I can say that some have done a better job in depicting the proper way of handling.
In other words, you see the finger off the triggers.
But by and large, more often times than not, I can't tell you how many scenes...

(04:41):
Even going back to that famous, you know, the debate is, is it a Christmas movie?
Is it not a Christmas movie? But that big high dollar action Christmas movie
that we just watched again over the holidays, even in that movie,
they've got their fingers on the trigger, even when they're not shooting and
they're just walking around carrying the firearms.

(05:02):
So, yeah, certainly important to keep your finger off the trigger until you're
ready to shoot and you're sure of your target.
It. So there's some other list of rules and I want to breeze through a couple
of sets of these and you'll see the similarities, the overlap,
the redundancy, whatever you want to call.
And one of those, and this is more complete. So Jeff Cooper kind of came up with those four.

(05:23):
If you follow those four, it'll kind of keep you out of the trouble,
out of trouble the rest of the time. And I completely agree.
And it's certainly the four that I think it's safe to say you and I subscribe
to certainly, but the, the other lists are a little longer.
There's typically 10 to 12 overall rules.
And I think it's important to cover these just so you understand there are some
others that you should think about and be aware of.

(05:45):
The first set, and just going to cover these real quickly, feel free to interrupt
me and highlight something that stands out to you.
But the first set of rules, there's 12, and they're actually called the 12 golden
rules for safe gun handling.
And I'm not a hundred percent certain of the origin of these other than you can find them.
And anytime you do research on a mag tech, as in mag tech ammunitions website comes up all the time.

(06:11):
If somebody wants to chime in later and comment or send us an email and let
us know what the origin is, that's great.
I think actually the NRA is kind of borrowed or copied some of these for their
own, but the 12 golden rules for safe gun handling are one,
always treat the gun as if it was loaded to always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.

(06:33):
Three, always keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready
to shoot for always keep the gun unloaded until you are ready to use it.
And I think that's a, you know, that's a good, good one to stop on because I
understand what they're saying there.
You know, if you're not using your guns, especially in, you know,

(06:54):
if you're not carrying or not planning to use it in a self-defense scenario,
you're hunting or you're target shooting, then it's a good, I think you would agree,
it's a good idea to keep that gun unloaded until you're actually ready to use it.
Yeah, I think if any of these were controversial, it would be number four amongst

(07:14):
the gun community, right?
Because based on what you're doing with your weapon, if you're carrying,
do you necessarily not want to keep around loaded in the chamber?
So we've talked about this before. I think the Israelis do not keep around chambered,
right? So they train to chamber around before pulling the trigger.

(07:35):
So I think, you know, that one should take that rule in perspective to what
they're applying it to. Yeah.
I personally, on my carry weapon, I keep around loaded in the chamber. Absolutely.
My home defense weapons have around in the chamber.
I know that if my
loved ones had to pick up a weapon and engage

(07:58):
they're probably not going to be in clear
mind under the stress to route to to uh chamber around and that's just one thing
they one less thing they have to worry about or even load the even load the
firearm in the first place right like you can't keep unloaded weapons around
the house and expect to not only get to them in time,

(08:18):
but load them in order to use them to defend yourself. So you're right.
Contextually, I think in hunting or just going to the range and shooting,
you know, your fun guns, so to speak, or your hunting guns, I think this rule makes a lot of sense.
Number five, never point the gun at anything you don't intend to destroy.

(08:40):
Number six, be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
Number seven learn the mechanical and
handling characteristics of the gun you're using i
think that's a great one right you know they like
a lot of things and of course men have a horrible time with it i know i do you
know read the instructions before you attempt this thing right and so you know

(09:01):
when you purchase a firearm it comes with a manual you may not read the entire
thing cover to cover but you probably should right because there's a lot of
pointers in there there's a lot of safety tips, a lot of warnings.
You learn how to break down the weapon correctly and put it back together.
They'll briefly touch upon, not necessarily gun safety rules per se,

(09:21):
but they'll touch upon how to use that particular weapon, you know,
is it a striker fire versus having a hammer, et cetera. So it's a good idea to read that manual.
And so, you know, that manual and that information contained in that manual
helps you begin to get familiar with the mechanical and handling characteristics

(09:42):
of the gun you're using, right?
I agree. And again, you have to follow the previous rules before that because
we've all known people trying to become familiar with a gun and the gun is loaded
and they have an accidental discharge.
But when you're getting to know your weapon, first thing is make sure it's unloaded.

(10:03):
But I think it's very important that you handle a weapon that you plan on carrying
or even going to the range and shooting, you know, often you should become very
familiar with it, you know, play with it, break it down, make sure it's safe,
put it in your hand, dry fire it, you know, it should become second nature.
Yeah, absolutely. And you bring up an excellent point too.

(10:25):
And we'll talk more about this on some of the other subjects that we plan on
covering in this podcast, but when you're learning that weapon for the first time.
You know, you mentioned making sure that that firearm is clear and free of ammunition.
100% agree, but I'd take it a step further. There shouldn't even be any ammunition in the area, right?

(10:46):
You're playing with this gun, as you say. You're taking it apart, possibly.
You're learning, you know, if it's a hammer, if it's got a hammer,
you're learning how that hammer works, what the trigger reset's like,
where the manual safety is.
If it does have an external safety, you know, all those things.
You're maybe inserting the magazine and taking it back out again,
racking the slide, you know, becoming familiar with that mechanical device,

(11:10):
because at the end of the day, that's what it is.
And you want to become familiar with it before you shoot it for the first time.
Ammo shouldn't even be introduced into the area that you're playing,
so to speak, with that firearm.
And I think that's a good policy to follow.
Number eight, I think this is a good one, too. And it's, you know,

(11:32):
we can talk about this one at length, but just real quickly here,
always use the proper ammunition.
You know, the general rule is a smaller caliber weapon cannot shoot a larger
caliber bullet, larger caliber ammunition.
There are some instances, for example, if you have an AR that's a 5.56 caliber,

(11:55):
you can also shoot .223, but you can't shoot 5.56 out of a .223.
You'd blow it up because it's not set for those pressures.
It's not designed to shoot 5.56.
So in some cases, a larger caliber weapon can shoot a lower caliber bullet,
but you can't shoot a larger caliber out of a smaller. And the same,

(12:17):
for example, is the .357 Magnum pistol, for example.
Yeah, you can shoot a .38 Special out of a .357 Magnum, but you certainly can't
shoot a .357 Magnum out of a .38 Special.
So when you're becoming familiar with your firearms, be certain what ammo it
shoots and know what you can and cannot shoot out of it.

(12:39):
Yeah, I think that's very important because there are some weapons out there
that, you know, can shoot multiple types of ammunition and you should know what they are.
Absolutely. Number nine, be sure the barrel is clear of obstructions before loading and shooting.
You know, when I get a new gun, I have a habit,
and sometimes I don't do it, but I generally have a habit of at least shining

(13:02):
a light down that barrel even before I get it to the range to make sure there
hasn't been some cotton ball or some sort of cardboard something lodged in the end of that barrel.
I'm actually pretty rigorous about following this
one and I think it becomes even more important if you're
outdoors especially hunting if you were to trip and
fall or drop your firearm on the

(13:23):
ground or in the mud or in the swamp you know whatever it
is you want to make sure that barrel is clear of obstructions because that can
be bad news if you were to fire that weapon and that barrel have something in
it blocking it up number 10 if your gun fails to fire when the trigger is pulled
Hold your shooting position for several seconds,

(13:44):
then with the muzzle pointed in the safe direction. Very important.
Carefully unload the gun. This is another one that I think trips some folks up.
A lot of times, you know, for center-fired weapons that have a primer,
they hit light primer strikes by the firing pin.
You know, it doesn't necessarily discharge the bullet the first time.

(14:04):
And so, you know, they may try again a couple of times before they just figure
the bullet, you know, the ammo is a dud and they throw it away.
But and it becomes even more important with center with rim fired ammunition,
sorry, rim fired ammunition like your 22 longs and shorts, et cetera.
Because with rim fires you can get what

(14:27):
they call hang fires where the firing pin hits
the rim like it should but the powder
doesn't charge doesn't discharge like it
should and 22s especially
have been known for hang fires in other words the firing
pin hits the rim nothing happens and
then a few seconds later bang the bullet goes

(14:48):
off so i know when i was growing up learning to
shoot 22s at camp they'd tell us if we ever had
a misfire in other words you know the we pulled
the trigger the firing pin hit we were to keep
that barrel pointed down range for 30
seconds to allow that powder time to ignite if it was going to and then after

(15:09):
that you know pull the bolt back or eject around or whatever and you know at
that point you could assume it was a dud but i think it's important to remember
that when your bullet doesn't go bang when you pull the trigger
just give it a few seconds keep that barrel pointed in a safe direction give
it a minute because it may have a delayed uh it it may go off in a delayed fashion

(15:30):
and that wouldn't be good for anybody well listen i think jim you said you went to camp yeah right.
Shoot, I grew up in the South Bronx in the 70s, so I guess that was kind of
a camp. That was camp, right?
22s in the street, right? Let's
see, number 11, don't rely on the gun's safety to keep it from firing.

(15:51):
You know, this was, I think, on yours and my NRA basic pistol instructor test is,
you know, even when a firearm, whether it be a pistol or a rifle,
even if it has an external safety switch on it and you've got it on safe,
those mechanical safeties are never 100 percent or you should never,

(16:15):
ever assume they're 100 percent certain.
Because at the end of the day, it's a mechanical device subject to failure.
And so the safety is there for peace of mind, but there's never 100% guarantee with them.
I think, you know, one of Cooper's quotes that I remember is,
safety happens between your ears and not in your hand.

(16:36):
Yeah. And I think that's to this, right? You have to be conscious of safety.
Absolutely. And you made that point in the first podcast. And I think it's an
important one. It's really what goes on upstairs between your ears, right?
And, you know, regardless of what state the firearm's in, it's always ultimately
up to the handler of that firearm to handle it safely.

(16:58):
And number 12 is be aware of your surroundings when handling guns so you don't
trip or lose your balance and accidentally point and or fire the gun at anyone or anything.
And I think that's just a matter of you know Trying not trying to be less clumsy
if you have a tendency to be clumsy and you have a firearm This goes back to

(17:19):
why you know, especially if you're out hunting why it's important to keep that firearm.
Unloaded or especially on safe if it has a external safety, so when accidents
do happen like you trip and fall and,
Additional accidents are less likely to happen, but again, being extra careful

(17:39):
and being aware of where that muzzle is pointing is especially key.
One thing I want to mention, I'm sorry, go ahead. Not that I agree.
Well, good. You should. Good.
One thing I want to mention talking about out of the 12 golden rules,

(17:59):
number 10, if the gun fails to fire when the trigger is pulled,
holding your shooting position for several seconds.
Tied to that, there's a condition that occurs, and you typically don't see it
in factory ammunition so much, although it's possible, but you see it more in
remanufactured or reloads.
There's a there's a an occurrence

(18:21):
called squibs and this is when you
pull the trigger the firing pin hits the
primer for example but the
you know the gun doesn't sound right the
gun makes a pop or a very soft quiet bang
and maybe you think it shot but it

(18:41):
didn't our or it didn't and shoot
regularly and so what a squib is is when
you pull the trigger the cartridge you know
the the powder burns in the cartridge and it actually fires the bullet but it
shoots it at a very low velocity because there's something went wrong inside
the casing right and and it's probably due to a very low amount of powder compared

(19:06):
to what should be in there and so what happens is
that bullet actually doesn't even make it out of the end of the barrel.
It gets lodged inside the barrel.
And so if you're not really paying attention, you can follow that shot up because
everything up to that point seems normal.
The shell may even eject, right?
But if you shot that second shot after that squib occurrence,

(19:29):
you're likely to have a gun blow up in your hands because that second bullet
wants to get out of that barrel like it always does.
And if there's a squib bullet stuck inside that bullet, that's bad news.
So that's a rare thing. It doesn't happen often.
It typically happens with remanufactured ammo or reloads, but that is something to be aware of.

(19:52):
Yeah, it is. I think black powder also is common.
But yeah, so, you know, that's back to knowing your ammunition, right?
And being familiar with the weapon and how the ammunition that you're firing
should react once you pull the trigger, right? For a novice,
they probably wouldn't know that.
So, you know, it's good that they at least read up and become familiar before

(20:15):
they just go out to the range or even out to a field and start using a weapon
that they're not familiar with and the ammunition that they're using,
right? You should be familiar with both.
Well, you know, it's especially an issue because, you know, remanufactured or
reloaded ammunition is typically a lot less expensive than first,
you know, first quality factory ammunition.

(20:36):
And so that makes it very appealing, even for the first time shooter.
And they may not know of that concept and be aware of that concept because it's
not necessarily something mentioned in the firearms manual, for example.
And unless you've heard that or stumbled upon it before you went to shoot,
you may not know to look out for that.
If you've bought thousands of rounds of remanufactured ammo.

(20:59):
You need to be aware of the squib and what to do in that case.
And so, you know, to that end, what you should do is immediately stop,
unload that weapon, unchamber any round that you may have chambered after that,
and then you're going to have to get that stuck bullet unlodged somehow.
And so, yeah, certainly a good point to know, which is why I wanted to mention it here.

(21:25):
So just real quickly, covering the NRA's rules, and again, you're going to see
some overlap, redundancies, some themes here, and I think that's good,
but just to cover the basics.
And the NRA is a big organization, so a lot of times you'll hear those rules
come up as much or more than anyone else's.
The first one is always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.

(21:47):
We've heard that one. Keep seeing that one. That's key, because if something
did happen and there was a negligent discharge or an accidental discharge,
then as long as that muzzle's pointed in a safe direction, no one's going to get hurt, hopefully.
Always keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
We've heard that one a few times.
Always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use, and I think for the NRA, that's probably,

(22:13):
Probably a good one. I get the sense that the NRA is more competition,
fun target shooting, hunting than it is tactical self-defense oriented.
I mean, they have some things for home defense and some self-defense,
but I think by and large and historically the NRA has been leaning more towards

(22:33):
the target, the fun shooting, the hunting. So that makes sense.
And so that's their top three. And then after that, they have some others and
some of these are really good. So again, some overlap.
Know your target and what's beyond it.
Know how to use the gun safely. And I think that's a following these gun safety
rules we're talking about.

(22:54):
And in addition to anything you've picked up on or learned online about your
firearm or in its manual be sure the gun is safe to operate again I think that's
making sure the barrel is clear of obstructions keeping your firearms clean etc.
On that one right because I think that's a good one to talk about it a little

(23:18):
bit because you know you get a lot of guys that get at hand-me-down guns,
their grandfather's gun, his father's gun, an old World War II gun,
or some loop, something that's been in storage for who knows how long, right?
They finally get their hands on it, and the first thing they want to do is go out and shoot it.
And they're not even sure if the gun's operational. And I think that I think

(23:40):
that's important, you know, that before you do something like that,
take it to an armorer, get it checked, or, you know, at least inspect the gun yourself.
You know, make sure it has the proper maintenance, put some oil in it.
How many times I've had people come to the range and have a gun that was given
to them and the thing is rusty, it's dried out and they shoot it and it doesn't operate correctly.

(24:03):
And we spend more time just trying to get it in a condition that it will fire,
right, than they do shooting it. Actually shooting it, yeah.
So I think that's important here. That's an excellent point.
Yeah, those old surplus weapons is another one that you'll see a lot of.
And certainly we've seen our share of hand-me-down weapons or,

(24:26):
you know, things that have been willed to children, etc. So, yeah, absolutely.
Take it to the armor. It's a little extra precaution goes a long way towards safe shooting for sure.
This one we've seen again and again.
Use only the correct ammunition for your gun. This one's important,
especially when you're shooting on the range in a lot of situations,

(24:46):
wear eye and ear protection as appropriate.
Again, in a self-defense situation, yeah, if you're in your safe room in your
home, which we've talked about in another podcast, but you might have some hearing
protection that you might have time to get to.
But certainly when you're shooting at a range, whether it's indoor or outdoor,
you want to make certain that you have eye and ear protection on your eyes and

(25:11):
ears. And the good news is they're most any range is going to enforce that rule.
If they enforce nothing else, they're going to make sure you have your eyes
and ears on before you go out to shoot.
This one's a big one that we've talked about, and I'm surprised how many people do try.
Unfortunately, it doesn't happen that often, but I have seen it happen multiple times.

(25:32):
Never use alcohol, over-the-counter drugs, or prescription drugs.
And I would add to the list illegal drugs, especially before or while shooting.
And that's a big one. You know, it's funny.
When I was a kid and in that same summer camp, we used to have to go through the 10 or so NRA rules.

(25:53):
And I remember when we got to this one, the rule that they taught us,
which was a variance of this, is never mix alcohol and gunpowder together.
And I always thought, you know, being the 12 year old, I thought they literally
meant don't mix alcohol and gunpowder together.
I don't know. I don't know why. But now I get it. Like, you don't want to be

(26:18):
drunk when you're shooting.
You don't want to be high when you're shooting. You know, a lot of the,
even the over-the-counter drugs, sinus medicines and stuff, or NyQuil,
you know, they have a tendency to make some people loopy.
So, choose another time to go shoot, certainly, if you're under the influence of anything.
Absolutely. And I think we've both experienced range safety officers where we've

(26:39):
had to make a decision on whether someone is intoxicated or,
you know, smells like alcohol.
And now they should be on the range, right? And that's more common than people think. Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. So I've seen it a few times. I've been in the booth.
I've gone into the booth with folks and there's a strong smell of alcohol.

(27:00):
And I've also been on the range where there's a strong smell of weed.
And, you know, the, the, the gun range folks should be cognizant and paying
closer attention to those that come in smelling like it, if nothing else.
So that's the top rules for the NRA. That's the 10.
You know, they talk about cleaning your weapons, which we're going to talk about

(27:22):
some here in this podcast as well.
And some, you know, paying attention to additional safety precautions.
You know, you bring up the fact that we've both served as volunteer range safety
officers at a range and what they mean by at least what I take it to mean when
they talk about following additional safety precautions,

(27:43):
you know, is every every gun range has a standard set of operating procedures
that they want people to follow and and abide by.
And so, you know, when you go to the range, be sure you know what that range's safety rules are.
If they do have additional safety rules or any safety rules at all that they
want you to pay special attention to, they'll generally post them somewhere for you.

(28:08):
So take a moment, read over that list, and more importantly,
follow what's on that list.
I agree. As I should.
Say again? I said I agree as I should. Right, as you should.
So that's a good segue talking about RSO and following any additional safety

(28:29):
rules that a range may have.
Let's talk about range safety. What should I do when I go to shoot?
And again, it doesn't really matter if it's indoor or outdoor.
It's just safety rules that I should be following, things that I should be cognizant of.
And then we can also talk about some of the things we've seen firsthand as range

(28:50):
safety officers as well. But just real quick, going through the list here.
So, you know, the first rule is following, certainly following Jeff Cooper's top four.
But, you know, following the 12 golden rules, certainly. Don't come to the range drunk.
Know your weapons. Be at least familiar with them ahead of time.

(29:10):
Ask questions. Get training and be prepared to handle those firearms safe.
And to that point, number two is know and follow all the ranges shooting rules,
all the rules that that particular range may have in place for itself.
And they're generally all the same.
They're generally just the basic firearm safety rules. rules,

(29:35):
but they'll also have other things like when it comes to kids,
young children, you shouldn't have them beyond arm's length at all times, those sorts of things.
So be aware of those and follow them.
If there is a range master or a range safety officer, as Dennis and I have both
been, listen and do what they say.

(29:56):
Those guys are there to monitor, keep an eye over everything at all times and
if they tell you to do something just follow it you can ask them questions or
debate with them after you're through shooting or after they're off duty but
in that moment in time just know that they're trying to keep the place as safe
as possible for you they're not trying to be.
Tough on you or anything like that they're just trying to be keep the place

(30:21):
safe and keep you and anybody that you're shooting with safe absolutely and
that's a big one in our books right because we've both been there and done it.
So, you know, we appreciate when people do abide by what we tell them.
This is a big one for me and something that I saw all the time at the range
and still continue to see.

(30:43):
Uncase, encase your guns in the shooting, at the shooting bench,
inside your booth, inside your aisle, whatever you want to call it,
and not behind the safety line.
Don't do it at the table, at the counter, at the bench, back behind.
I know you're going to come in with bags. Take your bag into your booth,
into your aisle, put it up on the deck.

(31:04):
Take out whatever firearms you're going to shoot. Put them up on the table that's
in the aisle in your area, in your booth, and then take your bags back to the table.
Stop getting your weapons out back there.
And more importantly, don't load and unload your weapons at those tables or
anywhere outside the booth or the aisles, for that matter.

(31:25):
And I know you and I have both seen a lot of that.
That makes me real nervous when I'm on a range and I hear a slide go forward
and they're not on the line. That makes me real nervous. Yeah, absolutely.
And for that matter, when you're shooting at the range yourself,
you need to be aware of what's going on behind you at all times because you
never know when someone's loading and unloading their firearms behind you.

(31:48):
They shouldn't be, but some ranges aren't as strict as monitoring safe environment
as they should. And a lot of times folks do what they do.
And so you're responsible for yourself ultimately.
So take a few minutes and be aware of what's going on behind you.
That rule works both ways.
This is another one. Always keep the barrel pointed downrange.

(32:09):
I can't tell you how many times I've seen barrels, muzzles, the business end
of the barrel, flagging everybody, pointing at everybody in the range outside
the booth, outside the aisle.
So keep that barrel pointed downrange. Go ahead.
I think that's more common in new shooters. I think I've seen that where a new

(32:29):
shooter has shot, hit the target, gets excited, turns around and starts facing
everyone excited with the gun, flagging and waving the gun,
finger on the trigger, and they're not even conscious of what's going on. Yeah.
Yeah. No, it's something to be aware of. You know, that finger off the trigger
and making sure that muzzle's pointed in a safe direction,

(32:51):
meaning when you're at the range shooting, safe direction means downrange towards
the target, not back out towards the shop, and certainly not back out behind
you where everyone else is.
Always keep the gun on safe until you intend to shoot. Well,
yes, guns have some guns have external safeties and certainly that's extra step of precaution.

(33:13):
Like we talked about earlier, they're not 100 percent.
The keeping the gun on safe ultimately has to do with the user and what's between
your ears and being cognizant that they're following.
I'll say those top four rules.
Always wear ear and eye protection when shooting.
Well, that goes without saying. And again, most ranges are going to enforce

(33:36):
that if they enforce nothing else.
And this is one that we see violated on YouTube all the time.
Never shoot at water or hard surfaces.
It's just, and this is obviously pertaining more towards outdoor ranges,
but this is one that just happens too much.
I see too many idiot videos on YouTube. the guy is shooting multiple rounds

(34:01):
just as fast as they can pull the trigger into a body of water.
One word, people, ricochet. Where are those bullets ending up?
Right. So, you know, I think you would agree with me on most of these,
but having worked on occasion for a little over a year and a half on a volunteer

(34:22):
basis at a local range that you and I have shot a lot at,
I would have to say these are the things that I've seen the most that I would
caution people to be most cognizant of when they're at the range shooting.
Watching that muzzle, we talked about that.
Only loading and unloading your firearms in the shooting booth,

(34:45):
in the shooting stall, and not on the tables, not at the chairs,
not behind the firing line.
Keeping your finger off the trigger. I've seen that a whole lot.
I was actually not working as an RSO.
I was there shooting with another buddy of mine one day and was back at a table
loading my magazine to shoot.
And I had a woman approach me. She came straight out of her booth,

(35:10):
her and her boyfriend or husband.
I don't remember which. It doesn't matter. There were new shooters.
I think had gotten a Groupon deal or something. And she came out of the booth
with a loaded HK pistol with her finger on the trigger headed straight towards me. And...
I came close to having a diamond ring on my hand when she did that because I

(35:35):
had no idea what her intent was.
But she didn't know how to put the gun on safe because her and her husband wanted
to take a break. She was quote unquote done shooting.
And she just came out of the booth with a loaded gun and her finger on the trigger
pointed, you know, heading, making a beeline towards me.
And so I made eye contact with her without even looking. I reached down,

(35:57):
I took the firearm out of her hand, and I walked her back in the booth,
and I gave her explicit instructions not to ever do that again.
And I showed her how to operate the firearm on a basic level and wished them
well, and hopefully they made it home safe.
But keeping your finger off the trigger as well as being aware of where that
muzzle's pointing is key.

(36:18):
And, you know, as a range safety officer, what we say goes.
And if you don't like it, you can always leave. You're not above following the basic safety rules.
So I just wanted to add that to the end of the range safety discussion.
You got anything to add to that?
I think I remember you telling me a story also about a gentleman that was taking

(36:41):
his weapon out of the case behind the fire line on the bench and wasn't sure
if he had a round in the weapon and pulled the trigger and ended up having a
round in the weapon and it went off.
I think you told me he shot his girlfriend's purse or something and went into the wall. Yeah.
The guy, quote unquote, could not remember if the pistol was loaded or not.

(37:03):
And to test whether or not it was loaded, he just decided that it was best if
he pulled the trigger to see.
And when he did, fortunately, the barrel, and I don't think because he was being
overly cautious, I just think it was luck.
But fortunately, he was not pointing the barrel at his two friends that were

(37:24):
with him, and it wound up shooting one of his friend's purses,
her purse, and it went into the wall.
So she lost a perfectly good leather purse, but that's better than one of the
three of them getting hurt, I suppose.
But yeah, see all kinds of nonsense, working a range. So it's important that we follow these rules.

(37:45):
I think it's safe to say.
So i'm not a hunter i don't hunt i haven't
shot and killed any animals since
i was a kid i used to hunt when i was younger but went a different way but i
think it's important we cover the topic of hunting safety and i know you hunt
some so just to breeze through these and again number one is following those

(38:10):
top safety rules i think those set you up mostly for success us.
I think this is a good one, especially in the spirit of being an RSO.
When hunting in a group, always pick one or more people to act as a safety officer for that trip.
And I think that's an excellent idea. Put somebody in charge of safety.
Make sure they're overseeing what everyone's doing. Make sure no one's pointing

(38:33):
the barrel at their buddy accidentally or just apathetically.
I think apathy plays as much of a role as not paying attention.
I agree. I've been on some trips, in particular, quail hunting.
An open field, four or five guys walking the lane and, you know,
the dog flushing the birds.

(38:54):
And, you know, for us, luckily we did follow this rule and someone was standing
behind us. He wasn't engaging.
He was watching to make sure everyone else was being safe.
And a lot of times you get someone that'll fly, come across their lane,
right? Instead of staying in their sector of fire. And that's important.
So, you know, one of my rules is, I typically won't hunt with people I'm not

(39:17):
familiar with or know, right?
To go hunt with, But like, you know, if someone said, hey, you want to go hunt
with me and I'm not familiar with how they are safety-wise, right,
I'm very reluctant in doing so.
Yeah, it's probably a good personal policy to have.
And you mentioned this, and that segues into another rule that's important is,

(39:39):
you know, when you're hunting, especially in groups of two or more,
you need to know where everyone is out in the range, out in the field.
And so it's important that you communicate where you're going,
where you are, and you're sure not to aim in anyone's direction, right?
That can save a lot of heartache because you don't want to be shooting across

(40:00):
the field where your buddy is and him be shooting back across the field in your direction.
So it's important you communicate that, you stay where you say you're going
to be, and if you do move, you communicate that and you're not shooting in a
direction where you know or think your buddies may be.
Well, a good way of doing that too, again, going out to the field and especially

(40:22):
in a field that I've not been in. I've been in South Georgia hunting pig before.
And, you know, I like to go out the day before the day, the morning of early
and walk where we're going to go and, you know, establish where everyone's going
to be set up at. So I know my zone of fire and everyone else's zone of fire.
So we're not, like you mentioned, not firing back into an area where we know someone may be.

(40:43):
And that's very important, right? So, again, it's important to be familiar with
the terrain that you're going to be hunting in.
Yeah, that's a very good point. And I think it's awesome that you go out and
do a pre-check of the area and get familiar with it ahead of time because that just helps.
This is where the keeping your gun on safe rule really comes in.

(41:04):
I think hunting is especially important, especially when you're in groups and
you might be out there trudging through the woods together. Keep your firearms on safe.
Most hunting rifles that I'm
aware of all have external safeties and while nothing's a hundred percent.
Having that firearm unsafe, it's not a tactical situation.

(41:26):
Bambi's not going to be jumping out to mug you from behind a tree.
You're not trying to go on a split seconds notice.
You've got time to flip that safety off when the time does come to shoot.
It's not like you're shooting a whole lot when you're out hunting anyway.
You're waiting to make a kill shot. You're not shooting 20, 30 rounds,

(41:48):
you know, a box of 50 downrange to target practice like you are at the range.
You're shooting sometimes nothing, no shots.
So keeping that gun on safe, the safety engaged until you need it is important
when you're out hunting.
I agree. I definitely agree. And to be honest with you, when I'm hunting and

(42:10):
I'm in a hide and I have a bolt-action rifle, a lot of times I don't even chamber
a round until I'm ready to fire.
Yeah, good policy to have. Again, there's no urgency.
It's not tactical. It's not self-defense. It's not concealed carry.
It's okay if you don't chamber that round until you come into that field of

(42:30):
big, beautiful bucks or whatever, or hogs, whatever it is you're trying to kill.
Some of these are still pretty good.
Never climb over anything with a loaded gun in your hand or on your person.
You know, if you're by yourself, just go ahead and put your rifle through to
the other side on the ground or prop it up on the fence.

(42:52):
Again, you want to make sure it's on safe.
There may not even be a round chambered,
doesn't really need to be a round chambered when you're hunting.
If you're with a partner, hold their firearm for them, let them go over the
fence or under the fence, whatever through the fence,
hand them their firearm and then hand them your firearm and then you go through that fence.

(43:18):
Don't try going through a fence or climbing a tree into your tree stand with a loaded weapon.
And so I would extend this to say that when you're going up into your tree stand,
don't don't hoist your firearm up loaded, unload it, put it on safe,
then bring it up with you. Right.
But don't carry it on your back loaded and certainly don't cross or go through

(43:40):
or under a fence with with your firearm.
Get it to the other side and then go through. room.
Absolutely. You should, you should not be climbing any type of obstacle out
in the field with a loaded weapon around in the chamber.
Right. So, you know, I don't think I've experienced that now.
I've, you know, climbed up in the heights before and I make sure, you know.

(44:04):
All according to what weapon I may have at the time, if it's an assault rifle I may have with
me for whatever reason you know magazines out both
blocks of the rear and you know get where
i need to go and then when i get up there you know
usually any good hunter is going to be in
the hide well before he thinks the game's coming so he

(44:24):
can make as much noise as he needs but once he's settled in you know some time
goes by you know it really won't make a difference but the last thing you want
to do is climb over friends climb up into a hide with the with a round in the
chamber because just because it's unsafe if the weapon happens to fall does
not mean it's not going to go off.
Absolutely. And there's been some accidental discharges, we know,

(44:48):
with firearms, even with safeties on.
That firing pin gets released and hits that primer and it doesn't even necessarily
require the trigger to be pulled.
Old going back and we've talked about this one previously but you know if you trip or fall,
check your weapon make sure it's still in good working condition and most importantly

(45:10):
make sure that barrel is free of obstructions if by chance it were clogged and
you weren't paying attention and were to pull the trigger because you thought
you had the shot of your life on that 20 point buck,
and your barrel was clogged of mud or whatever, rocks, and you pulled the trigger,

(45:31):
you'd have a bad day on your hand.
It is likely that gun's going to blow up, the barrel's going to blow up,
and at very least, scare you to death, probably hurt you pretty bad, and it could kill you.
So if you do fall, first of all, be situationally aware, pay attention,
try to reduce your clumsiness.

(45:54):
But if you do fall, don't just assume your firearm's fine, especially if you know you did drop it.
Pick it up, inspect it, make sure it's in good working order.
But most importantly, make sure that barrel is free of obstruction.
Absolutely. You know, hunting, I don't think I've gone through terrain or had
a situation where I had a chance of getting debris or anything down my barrel.

(46:20):
I'm not saying that it can't happen, but in the service, being in the field,
that happened quite often.
It was second nature for us to clear the weapon and make sure that the bore
was clear before we fired.
A lot of times we had a round in the chamber, so empty the chamber, drop the magazine,

(46:45):
knock the weapon, check the bore, and reload before you before you engage because
you're right if you don't do that and you pull the trigger you're more apt to
hurt yourself and the folks around you absolutely and so you know if you are
super clumsy or you know accidents do happen you trip on that slippery route.

(47:06):
Whatever it is that caused you maybe to fall down be sure you're in control of that weapon,
Be sure that that barrel remains pointing in a safe direction and not towards
your buddy or anything you don't want to shoot.
To your point, if you're carrying it unloaded, then it's less of an issue.

(47:28):
And if it's on safe, that's even better. But at the end of the day,
a gun barrel only needs to be pointing in a safe direction.
And so when you fall, it's important.
It's just like if you're carrying an axe, you know, I learned in the Boy Scouts,
when you're carrying an axe and you trip and fall, you need to be aware of where
that axe blade is and, you know, pay attention to that at all times because

(47:53):
you don't want to wind up falling on the axe blade.
Well, the same applies to the guns, right?
You don't want to fall and the barrel of the gun wind up pointing straight at your buddy's head.
And the last one is, you know, the short version is, is when in doubt, don't take the shot.
And you know this goes back to the
basic rules be sure of your target and what's beyond

(48:14):
it you know if you're not sure your buddy's not on the
field across from the 20 point buck that you're
trying to take the shot at then you don't need to be taking the shot
i think you talked about a story when you
were hunting once where you weren't you you heard and
you were pretty sure there was something out ahead of you but
because you couldn't see clearly what it was you
weren't going to just shoot and so i think

(48:37):
that's a important to remember when you're out hunting too
you if you don't know what you're shooting at
or you are are you're not sure what's beyond what you're shooting at or if you
know that something that's beyond what you're shooting at shouldn't get shot
then you shouldn't take the shot and that's uh oh yeah the story was we We were

(49:00):
out pig hunting, and, you know,
we're out down by the 20,
and, you know, there shouldn't be anything else out there other than, you know, game.
And it was dusk, and I saw several figures come through my scope,
and I had to be pig, but I wasn't 100% sure.
And I did not take the shot until my buddy was able to.

(49:23):
It just so happened he was walking up and had a green light,
and he was able to illuminate the area, and then I took the shot,
right? Right. And, you know, most hunters won't do that.
I can tell you that right now. They probably would have taken that shot,
but I'm just a little bit more cautious.
You know, everything told me that 95 percent sure is probably,
you know, something I could do that some wild pig or something.

(49:45):
But in my gut, I just could not pull that trigger. Yeah.
Yeah. It's better safe than sorry.
So this next topic I think is important because we're all talking about guns.
Well, you got to get a gun at some point, so you got to go look at them.
You're hopefully going to buy one or n number of firearms before it's over with.
I have a couple myself. I've done this a few times.

(50:08):
Gun safety is just as important at the gun shop as it is anywhere else.
And as a matter of fact, it's kind of a fine line between safety and etiquette
because Because everyone in that
shop potentially stands in the way of you really trying out that weapon.
And so you've got to be very conscientious about where you're pointing a weapon in the gun shop,

(50:31):
being sure that you're not pointing the muzzle at someone when you're checking
it out, especially when you're dry firing and testing out the trigger.
And you also want to show some etiquette, have some respect for the persons
working behind the counter as well.
So this is my list of gun safety rules for the gun shop.

(50:55):
And, of course, the top four rules apply always because even an unloaded gun
should be treated as though it was loaded.
First of all, make sure any firearm that you're going to be handling in a gun shop is empty.
If it's a revolver, you know, you're going to be opening up the cylinder,

(51:15):
making sure there's no rounds in the cylinder.
If it's a semi-automatic, you're going to drop the magazine or at least at the
very least pull the slide back and ensure the magazine doesn't have any rounds
and that there's no rounds in the chamber.
If it's a rifle, you're going to make sure there's no rounds in the chamber
and or the magazines out of it as well.
Well, and, you know, as we were talking about earlier, and I joke about often

(51:41):
redundancy is your friend.
I said that before. And so, you know, there's going to be a lot of handling
of firearms back and forth between people in a gun shop.
The person behind the counter is going to hand you a gun.
You may hand the you're going to hand the gun back to the person behind the
counter. But before that, you may pass the gun off to your buddy that's shopping

(52:03):
with you or looking with you, and then he's going to give it either back to
you or back to the person behind the counter.
And so this is where redundancy, this is one area where redundancy comes in, and it's important.
So what you should expect as a shopper when you go into a gun shop and you want
to look at pistols, rifles, whatever, is that person behind the counter should

(52:24):
ensure that that weapon is clear.
They're going to open the bolt, they're going to pull back the slide,
they're going to open up the cylinder and make sure there's no ammunition in
that gun before they hand it off to you.
When you get that gun, you're going to make sure that you're cognizant of where
that barrel is, where that muzzle is at all times, and that you don't flag anyone.

(52:46):
And by flagging, we mean pointing that gun at anyone. Right.
And, you know, that ties over to the trigger, right?
A lot of times you want to test the trigger pull on a firearm to see what it
feels like, to see what the travel is, to see what the reset is,
to see what it feels like when it goes click, when the firing pin goes click,

(53:09):
and then what the reset feels like when you let it go again.
Again, you need to make especially sure of where that muzzle is and ensure you're
not pointing at anything or anyone, especially in the gun shop,
that you're not wanting to shoot.
Plus, other people in the shop never appreciate it when you point a gun at them.

(53:29):
The redundancy comes in because when I pass that firearm either back to the
person behind the counter or to my buddy, I'm going to check even though I quote
unquote know that weapon's unloaded, I'm going to check, and I always do,
I'm going to check briefly to see and make sure that firearm still is unloaded
before I pass it to the next person.

(53:51):
And even though we know that weapon's unloaded, it's just courtesy.
It's just courtesy. They've done it for you. You do it to them to show them
that you're conscientious and that you're safety-oriented,
you're safety minded and that's where the redundancy
comes in and then the last one i'm gonna say and
then you can add what you want dennis is never unholster your firearm in a gun

(54:15):
shop unless you've gotten permission you've asked and gotten permission to do
so they kind of take offense to that and you may not have the sort of response
that you like if you were to unholster your firearm without asking first.
I agree. And a lot of gun stores now have that in there, that all firearms need

(54:36):
to be holstered, right, or in some sort of container or something when entering the store.
And I think that just puts everyone at a peace of mind, right,
rather than someone coming in with a pistol in their hand.
I think you might be greeted differently if you do that. Yeah. Bad news.

(54:58):
And so, you know,
That's a short list. Of course, you're following all gun safety rules at all
times, especially those four, right?
But those are kind of the ones that pop into my head when I'm in a gun shop
and I'm looking at weapons.
But, you know, part of that is the flip side of the coin, right?
And part of gun shop safety is being aware of what others are doing around you, right?

(55:24):
And And sometimes that may mean that you need to step back or forward out of
the way of someone that's not keeping an eye of where the muzzle of the firearm
that they're handling is.
And, you know, safety is always the responsible, you know, it's always the responsibility
of you that it's on both ends. Right.

(55:46):
So you always need to be situationally aware and paying attention to others
because, you know, The cat that's up at the counter checking out the new spring-filled
pistol. I don't know why he'd be doing that.
Spring-filled pistol, he may not be even aware that the muzzle of that pistol
is pointing right at you.
And you're just standing at the counter eyeballing the Glocks next to him.

(56:10):
So it's your job to pay attention to that and know, hey, you've got the option
to either confront him and say, hey, be mindful of the muzzle of that gun.
Gun or, you know, just go ahead and take the effort yourself to back up out
of the way and then maybe decide to tell, tell them to pay better attention to what they're doing.

(56:31):
But you know, the, the onus is on you at the end of the day,
a gun safety. And so it works both ways.
You just had to go there with spring full and clock, didn't you?
They're both great guns. They really are. Yeah.
So let's talk about kids for a minute, Right. And we said at the beginning,
I think I said, I know I said at the beginning of my very first podcast when

(56:54):
we first talked about gun safety.
I said, you know, the cool part, the interesting part of this discussion on
gun safety is it applies not just to the gun community,
but also for the gun opposition, right?
Those that don't want guns, those that want to limit guns, those that don't

(57:16):
have anything to do with guns.
It applies across the board because, especially as a parent or otherwise,
you kind of need to know what to do.
You need to know, even if you're not handling the firearm directly yourself,
you kind of need to know how to go about handling them or telling someone how

(57:36):
to handle them appropriately.
So gun safety affects us all and we should all know how to do it.
So I say that for those that may otherwise think that this doesn't apply to
them, but it really does.
And so I say that because part of safe gun ownership is teaching children what to do.

(57:59):
And when they get old enough, how to handle a gun safely.
And of course, at that point, the normal gun safety rules apply.
But what happens to really young children or children that know nothing about
guns yet because their parents don't have anything to do with them or maybe
just haven't discussed it with them yet?

(58:21):
Or what happens when a family that's not a proponent of guns has a friend stay
over, has their children stay over at a friend's house that maybe does have
guns in the house? What should they do?
What should they do? What do you tell them? and so
you know instead of thinking through this i just

(58:41):
defaulted to the nra program i think it's fantastic
for what it is and again if you got a kid old enough to
be learning about guns or handling guns then it's
not going to apply to them but i think for super young children or for children
who's never gonna learn about guns directly because their parents don't want
anything to do with them i think this program's great and so the nra has a program

(59:05):
called eddie the eagle Have you ever heard of this before?
Yeah. So it's basically, well, it is three simple steps.
Number one is stop. If a child comes across a gun, they should just stop, freeze in their tracks.
Number two is do not touch. Whatever you do, there's no reason for you to touch that firearm.

(59:27):
You've seen it. You stop. You don't touch it.
And you go get an adult and tell them. And then hopefully they'll know what to do.
Well, this podcast benefits those that wouldn't otherwise know what to do,
because if they listen to this, then those adults that that child goes and tells
will hopefully know what to do.

(59:47):
But it's important that they don't touch the gun, especially if they don't know
what they're doing, if they haven't learned about firearms yet.
And that goes for the group of kids, too, right? Because sometimes peer pressure comes into play.
But I think that's a pretty good program.
Yeah, I think so. So, you know, it's great to teach the kids,

(01:00:08):
but I think further steps of prevention is if you know that you have children,
especially children that are not your own, in your home and you have guns out,
which a lot of homes do for home protection, that you put them up.
I can tell you right now that any time I have, yes, especially when children

(01:00:29):
are in the house, I put my guns in the safe. I don't even want to take a chance about it.
Whether the kid will or will not touch, I don't care. I don't want to take a chance.
Of all the news stories that touch me the most is those where you hear these young kids, brothers,
sisters, cousins, happen to come across a weapon and they shoot a family member

(01:00:53):
because they found a gun and they want to see how it worked.
And that could be avoided simply by locking that gun up. Right.
Good gun ownership. I think that's I think that's the priority there first.
And then second, teaching the children about, you know, how to what to do if
they see a gun. Yeah, that's an excellent point.

(01:01:14):
You know, that's kind of like there's three steps for the kids to follow.
There's really one step in that scenario for the adults to follow.
And that's when kids are around.
Keep your guns locked up. And that would prevent all kinds of all kinds of things.
So while we're on the subject of kids and guns, a lot of times,
more often than not, the question comes up, well, when should I talk to my kids?

(01:01:41):
And there's not a particular age to begin that discussion, I don't think.
I think parents know their children best.
If they're going to introduce guns to their children, they know best likely when they can do that.
Hopefully the child is showing some signs of maturity and willingness to follow

(01:02:01):
rules and instructions.
But beyond that, it's really up to the parents to figure out what's best.
But to your point again, yeah.
Locking up your firearms is the go-to safety rule to follow for adults when
there's children around.
Yeah, I agree. And I think that age can be a guideline on determining when it's

(01:02:25):
best to introduce your child to a gun if that's what you intend to do.
But I think you hit it on the nose when you said that maturity,
I think maturity plays a big role because I've seen some nine-year-olds that
are a lot, you know, mature and willing to take instruction and, you know, understand.
And I've seen 14-year-olds, 15-year-olds, not so much.

(01:02:47):
Yeah. You know, I wouldn't trust them with a gun. Right.
I think the first time that I ever shot, I know it was with my dad and my mom's dad, my granddad.
I think I was nine years old was the first time I shot.
I think I shot 22s and a 12 gauge, believe it or not.

(01:03:08):
That's funny because although I told you I was raised in the South Bronx,
the first time I shot a weapon was in the Marine Corps. And it was like a drug to me.
Yeah. Once I got into it, I was like, oh, I have to have this.
It's a lot of fun. It's not all
about self-defense and tactical this and tactical that and use for intent.

(01:03:32):
It's a lot of fun. I find it to be stress relieving. It's a lot of fun to shoot
targets and challenge yourself.
There's an element of bonding.
I think you and I have a great time shooting. I know as an RSO,
I actually enjoyed watching other people shoot and enjoy the activity,

(01:03:54):
the sport, whatever you want to call it.
Yeah, it could be a drug of sorts. It can be addictive for sure.
I mean, even today, although we're not actively RSOing, I find myself stepping
back from the line and kind of observing what's going on with other folks.
And, you know, talking with people about guns and give them some pointers.

(01:04:15):
And, you know, what people are doing is it's a community.
Yeah, it is a community. Yeah, definitely. Definitely.
And we want to make it a safe community. Just a random safety rule.
I don't know if you want to call it a safety rule. I just call it a safety no-no.
And, you know, we've even seen and heard some high-ranking political figures

(01:04:37):
that clearly don't know what they're talking about even offer it as a suggestion.
And that's warning shots or just shooting guns into the air and we see a lot of.
Let's say third world groups, individuals shooting guns wildly into the air
at celebration of weddings and parties or just intimidation tactics.

(01:04:59):
And again, we've had high ranking political officials here stateside suggest
that to scare off bad guys, you just fire a shot in the air,
a warning shot off in the air.
Well, warning shots are generally illegal.
So that they're more probably

(01:05:20):
more often than not ineffective of scaring off
any bad guy and serving any such purpose but the
most important reason if the law wasn't enough to keep you from doing it is
that everything that goes up most must come down and there's actually been a
lot of people killed from stray bullets you know not knowing what's beyond your

(01:05:42):
target and shooting anyway can get kids.
We've seen kids killed in the news, right?
We've heard stories of that, but you know, if you shoot a bullet or a bunch
of buckshot in the air, it's got to come down.
And I'm not going to debate trajectory and velocity of buckshot versus lead

(01:06:02):
bullets coming back down after having fired a warning shot, but those bullets
have to come down somewhere.
And when they do, they're going to get, they're going to hit and they're going to hit hard.
And I was always amazed because I shot a lot of .22 growing up,
target practice and hunting.
And I was always amazed that a .22 long rimfire has a range.

(01:06:24):
Of course, it'd have to be ideal, but it has a range of up to a mile and a half.
A mile and a half away, a .22 can reach. A .22 hollow point can go to a mile and a half away. way.
So, you know, imagine walking down the street and suddenly getting killed because

(01:06:44):
some idiot a mile and a half away shot his 22 off in the air or shot and missed
a squirrel in the tree and it came down and killed you.
So warning shots, shooting guns in the air are not as fun as it may seem, it's not a good ideal.
It's illegal most everywhere, so far as I know. And I'm,

(01:07:08):
you could wind up hurting if not killing someone in doing so.
So just as a sidebar, safety tip there, no warning shots, no shooting guns in the air, please.
Well, that's back to do not pull the trigger unless you intend to destroy your target, right?
So if you're shooting the gun in the air, you have no idea what the target is.

(01:07:30):
Absolutely. Or what's beyond any target you would be shooting at. That's correct.
So a last part, we're almost done here, but the last thing that I wanted to
talk about is cleaning your weapon and the safety around that.
It's my opinion that a clean weapon is a safe weapon, or at least a safer weapon.

(01:07:52):
So I think cleaning a weapon, having a clean gun is the right thing to do and
certainly a safe thing to do.
It has to do with keeping that firearm in good working order and you know when
you clean your firearm it gives you an opportunity a really good opportunity
to get familiar with it too,

(01:08:12):
and you know cleaning and having a clean firearm a clean weapon better ensures
that when you do pull the trigger it actually works and goes bang when the time
comes so there's a lot of reasons.
As to why you should clean your gun.
When I was growing up and when I first started shooting, and I know when I got

(01:08:34):
my first .22, which I think it was Christmas of when I was 13, a long time ago,
I was taught, and it seemed like it was kind of an industry thing too,
that you should come home and clean your weapon after every single time you
shoot it, regardless of how many rounds you put through it.
And so, you know, regardless of whether or not you follow that rule or not,

(01:08:57):
the idea is that you should keep your firearm clean.
And so I admit I own it. I don't clean my guns every single time I come home from the range.
You know, a lot of my firearms that I have, I know will continue to shoot for
several, several hundred rounds before shutting down due to being dirty.
With that being said, I don't let them go indefinitely. I do keep them clean,

(01:09:21):
especially ones that I carry, concealed carry, for personal defense reasons.
But keeping your gun is part of keeping it being safe, in my mind.
Yeah, and even if you don't do a thorough cleaning, you should at least punch
the bore, wipe it down, get the carbon off of it, right?
Yeah. It's just good for the gun. You don't necessarily have to do a detailed

(01:09:43):
cleaning after every shoot.
But at a minimum, I keep a rag in my range bag.
And before I put any of my weapons back into the case or, you know,
the sleeve that I have it in, I wipe it down, you know, slide up,
wipe it out, make sure it's clear and then put it, put it away.
Right. That's at a minimum. You should be doing that. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

(01:10:07):
And, you know, as far as safe handling of the firearm, when you're actually
cleaning it is before you start to clean.
And I know here recently I read or saw a story online, something about the fact
a guy had shot himself or someone sitting around him nearby because he didn't
check the weapon before he went to clean it and pulled the trigger or something.
But you need to ensure that that weapon is clear, unloaded.

(01:10:31):
The cylinder's empty if it's a revolver the chamber's empty if it's a rifle
the bolt back whatever the case may be the semi-automatic the semi-automatic
rifle or pistols the magazines remove the bolts back the slides back you need
to make sure that weapon is free and clear of ammunition.
And I take it a step further, and I would suggest there's actually three cases

(01:10:56):
for this, but I recommend cleaning the firearm in a completely separate room for where your ammo is.
Or if you clean in a different room, leave your ammo wherever it was, right?
Don't have the ammo even in the vicinity of where you're cleaning that firearm.
You can't use the firearm anyway when you're cleaning it, so it's not like you need the ammo.

(01:11:19):
Just do it in a separate room so i
think there's three cases for separating ammo
as in you being in a totally different space
from where the ammo is again does it
seem like overkill yeah but with safety and firearms they're not toys i argue
there is no overkill there is need for redundancy and there is no overkill i

(01:11:43):
would say that when you're first get a firearm and you're getting familiar with
it, there's no reason to have ammo nearby.
Unless you're at the range getting ready to shoot it and getting familiar with
shooting it, there's no reason to have ammo nearby.
Don't have ammo. Play with that gun. Follow the manual.
Make sure you're getting some sense of how that weapon performs operationally.

(01:12:06):
When you're cleaning that firearm, when you get home from shooting it the first
time, you should clean it just to help you further get familiar with it.
But again, Again, leave the ammo wherever the safe is or wherever you lock it all up at.
And then lastly, when you dry fire, there's benefits to dry firing,
which we can talk about another time, but there's benefits to dry fire practice with your firearms.

(01:12:29):
And you certainly shouldn't have ammo in the same room where you're dry firing
to eliminate any chance of there being an accident with live ammo.
One of the things and cleaning the weapon
is that people should be familiar with
the solvents right that they're using you know
again just like your ammo that you're using if you're going to

(01:12:49):
clean your weapon familiar with the proper solvents to use right do your research
do what you can use on your weapon if it's chrome plated or nickel plated whatever
it is that you're doing and you got plastic grips you know make sure that whatever
you're using to clean your weapon should be used to clean that particular weapon.
Just don't, you know, I'm honest with you, again, back in the service,

(01:13:13):
we were playing weapons with soap and water, right?
But, you know, I'm oiling it down too, right? But that's extreme.
So just become familiar with the proper cleaning tools for your particular weapon.
Yeah, that's important. And I think on those same lines, I would extend safety
to include ventilation because we know a lot of solvents, to your point,

(01:13:37):
that are used to clean firearms are very caustic.
They can stink up the place. Those fumes are not good.
And so a lot of those cleaners and cleaner lubricant protectants,
CLPs as they call them, solvents, they'll warn you to use only in well-ventilated areas.

(01:14:00):
But how many of us go outside to clean?
Well, we probably don't. But you do need to be cognizant that some of that stuff
is pretty strong and has some pretty toxic fumes at times.
At the same time, there's some alternatives that do not, but that's a good point.
That all comes back to the safety elements of cleaning your firearm.

(01:14:24):
Yep, absolutely. You know, in the cleaning, I just thought about this too.
Lubricants. You see, I think we've seen folks come out, buy a weapon brand new.
It's got the shipping grease on it, and they just go right into firing a weapon.
And I think it's important that,
again, you would just make sure that your weapon's lubricated properly.

(01:14:46):
I think if I was to see a malfunction in the range, I would say third to half
of it is probably because the weapon's not well-maintained and mostly because it's dry.
I think that's important, right? So in cleaning your weapon and maintaining
your weapon, make sure that you have the proper lubricants on there.

(01:15:08):
I'm thinking back through the experiences that just comes up to mind.
No, absolutely. And that just plays into that part of why keeping a clean weapon
is important is because it does allow it to perform optimally in the way that it's supposed to.
And lubricant certainly plays a big role into that.

(01:15:30):
That yep so yeah we've
talked about the rules we've talked about firing range
safety rules gun shop safety rules hunting safety
rules rules that even small children should be able to follow or be aware of
and what parents need to know more than likely and then you know the the importance

(01:15:50):
of cleaning and the safety around that i think it was a good discussion yeah
me too i i'm excited Excited that we finally got through the rest of this.
You know, it's good that we covered in detail those first four because they are so important.
You know, again, I said it in the first podcast, the treat all guns as if they
were loaded at all times.

(01:16:11):
It just sets the precedence for everything else.
But it's good to do a deep dive and understand that there are others that need
to be accounted for and that you should follow.
And that, you know, there's a place for redundancy. there's
a place for folks that aren't supporters of guns
to be familiar with gun safety rules and

(01:16:32):
you know the importance of upkeep and keeping
your your firearms clean and maintained all plays
a role in safety but going back to what
you said or i should give credit to cooper is
that you know safety is ultimately what happens between
your two ears and i couldn't agree more over that and i think that's a great

(01:16:54):
note to end on yeah well thank you for having me Jim. I appreciate it Denis
i appreciate it uh thanks thanks for doing this again uh now that we now we
can say we're finished up with gun safety finally at last and uh maybe we can
do something in the future.
Music.