125: US Election Special

Ian, Helen, Adam and Andy discuss the vote-a-geddon about to happen in the USA, and back on this side of the pond uncover the great history of political punch-ups. 

Episode Transcript

Maisie (00:00):
Page 94, the Private Eye Podcast

Andy (00:03):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Page 94.
My name is Andrew Hunter Murray, and I'mhere in the Private Eye office with Helen
Lewis, Adam MacQueen and Ian Hislop.
We are here to discuss everythingthat's happened since the last edition
of the magazine was published, andwe're gonna be talking about what's
coming up shortly, starting with.
The American election.
If you haven't noticed, there's one on.

(00:23):
And, we are very lucky because we havein the room with us today a reporter
and journalist who has actually been inthe USA very recently, unlike 98% of the
British commentators on the election,

Helen (00:36):
who just re-watched the West Wing box set.

Andy (00:38):
Exactly.
Helen, you've been there,you've been living it.

Helen (00:40):
I have, I've been at, the Atlantic.
My other gig asked me whichswing state I would like to drive
across, and I said, Pennsylvania.
So I've been to a Trump rally.
I've been to a Harris rally.
I've been to a Tim Waltz event in themiddle of a field with some pumpkins where
they said you could take a pumpkin home.
And I had to explainthat journalistic ethics.
So you did stop.

Adam (00:58):
Sorry, I misunderstood.
You just said.
Drive across Pennsylvania.
Yeah, I know.
See how long it takes you.

Helen (01:03):
Actually, they laughed at me because quite a bit
of it I did on the Amtrak.
I took a five hour train journey.
Lovely.
From Harrisburg to, yeah, to Pittsburgh.

Andy (01:10):
is that laughable?
Is that

Helen (01:12):
It is to Americans.
'cause they think when you pop out toget a snack for a five hour drive, why
you, why are you treating this likeit's an epic voyage across the far east.
I see.

Andy (01:20):
So we, thought we better treat this as a kind of town
hall event before the election.
You're gonna be answeringall our questions.
Yes.
so would anyone like toleap in first, of all,

Adam (01:29):
tell me about the Trump rally.
what's, what's that actually like?
How long did he talk for?

Helen (01:34):
Oh, 90 minutes.
I can see why people leave because itis, it, the, I've just written this.
I, but like the experience to mereplicates, sometimes when you're
really sleepy late at night and you'rewatching TV in a drama and you're just
nod off a bit and then you'll wakeup in a minute and they're in Venice.
That's exactly how it feels totry and listen to a Trump speech.
You're just n not off.
And he'll be talking about fracking andthen you'll come to, and he is talking

(01:56):
about, something like he covered,how much he hates Whoopi Goldberg,
who I said something mean about him.
And, he said, 'and I once bookedher to do a comedy set at Mar A

Lago (02:05):
filthy mouth, filthy mouth!'
And you're like, why are we here?
Why am I getting reviews of WhoopiGoldberg's comedy from the 1990s?
And it's, a real check.
It makes sense weirdly,if you let it wash over.
It's a bit like a sort of.
Magic eye painting, right?
You just have to step back and let youreyes on focus and you get the vibe.
But on the sentence level,it makes no sense at all.

Adam (02:26):
What, are they for?
is it literally just to hearhim do a rambling speech?
That's the entire function of the whole

Helen (02:31):
thing's, but it's like going to a WWE event or a concert like
I, I found it quite reminiscent.
The other thing it most remindedme of this year is going to a
Taylor Swift concert because you'vegot people with their families.
People queue up for hours outside.
They've got, instead of friendshipbracelets like you would have if you're
a swifty, they've got MAGA hats, right?
People have signs.
There's a carnival less kind of thing.

(02:51):
There's loads of merchandise.

Adam (02:53):
So his fundraising as well, presumably, is it the mech and stuff?

Helen (02:56):
No.
'cause it's all bootleg merch, right?
It's all people who've badly screedprinted that picture of him with his
fist from the assassination attempt,and they're trying to sell him for $10.
People want

Ian (03:04):
to go to share an event.
Yeah.
someone said to me, he keeps sayingthat he's a standup comedian and he
does stand up and they say, no, heisn't because standup comedian A has to
be funny, and B, there has to be somesense during the 90 minutes that you've
had, some sort of coherent experience.
I'm still baffled.

(03:25):
Yeah.
what, were the low lightsand the highlights?

Helen (03:29):
there's a point.
He does do a standup sort of improvthing because he does a free association.
So at one point he started talkingabout how he'd been to Iowa
and he liked Iowa and he justwent, I love Iowa, I love corn.
And it was just like, that was what hismemory, like his mental Rolodex retrieved.
I input Iowa output, what's in Iowa corn.
So it's

Andy (03:45):
like a very bad, whose line is it anyway, right?

Helen (03:47):
Yeah.
Effectively it had, that kind of vibe.
Who's

Andy (03:49):
lie is it?
Anyway, there you go.
Thank you.

Helen (03:52):
and then there's all these people who do warmups who are trying
to essentially do impressions of him,which is a very peculiar and an extremely
embarrassing thing for all of them.
Vivek Ramaswamy was there that night.
Who's the...

Andy (04:04):
he wasn't the running to be the vice president of at one point?
Yeah.
He ran in the primary and, he'sa biotech investor and I, yeah,
I described him in the magazineas being a podcast in human form.
That's, he just will turn up andtalk about anything at any point.
You'd be

Adam (04:16):
a bit disappointed though, 'cause some people get Kid Rock, some people get.
Hulk Hogan and you get Vivek.
That's

Helen (04:22):
he, at least I say this for Vivek, it was a type five.
Some people, ramble just by

Adam (04:27):
comparison with Trump.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you,

Helen (04:30):
the doors open at 3:00 PM in the afternoon and Trump
doesn't come on until seven 30.
So it's a, I'm just tryinga marathon, trying to

Adam (04:37):
translate this into slightly parial terms, but can you imagine
anyone wanting to wait four hoursto hear Keir Starmer give a speech?
It's just,

Helen (04:44):
I just think the Americans are much more enthusiastic people than we are.

Ian (04:47):
Just,

Helen (04:48):
yeah.

Ian (04:48):
So it's a collective thing.
What you mean generally about politics,

Helen (04:51):
about everything, about just small things in their long
lives, about the concept ofgetting dressed up and going out.
there's just a

Ian (04:57):
Yeah,

Helen (04:57):
but definitely about politics.
I think British people regard enthusiasmin politics as innately suspicious.
religion too, right?
Actually, yeah.
there's a lot of, there's a strainof you about us evangelical.
Christian, I grew up in the Catholicchurch and there was a deep suspicion of
those kind of like Alpha Course peopleor the evangelical people who would
fall to the floor and speak in tongues.

(05:17):
This was seen to be a bit, a bitmuch, we all like God, a bit much,

Ian (05:21):
I kept thinking of Halloween, which seems to be an event that's
got nothing to do with All Hallowseven, or indeed anything else.
it's a chance to dress up and feel partof something or other and watching the

Andy (05:34):
big orange face.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
It's a Trump rally.
is it a bit like Labour live?
I say this to you as someone who hasbeen reporting on Labour politics, do
you remember Labour had that kind of oneday, what was, it was one day festival.
It was

Adam (05:47):
the Corbyn Glastonbury

Andy (05:48):
wasn't exactly after Corbyn had played Glastonbury to greater a claim.
And he did have a number of massiverallies in the run up to the 2017
and 19 elections, and hundreds ofthousands of people came along to them.
And then Labour life was an attempt topiggyback on that Glastonbury thing.

Helen (06:01):
I went to a Corbyn rally in the, union chapel.
It was the very first one.
It was packed to the rafters andeverybody started seeing the red flag.
And it was, and that was amoment when I really thought,
wow, something's happening.

Adam (06:11):
He came to my hometown, St.
Leonards On Sea and, packed out thelocal park to the extent that someone was
climbing over the railings and trying toget in and match to impale themselves.
That's how much people wantedto see him at the time.

Ian (06:21):
Wow.
But this is directly contraryto your theory about British
people are not very bothered by.
Politics and find enthusiasm for it.
Embarrassing.
perhaps Glastonbury wasthe end for enthusiasm.
Yes.
Oh, Jeremy Corbyn and everyone think,oh no, we, no, we can't do this.
This is just too, it'sembarrassing, isn't it?
Yes.

Andy (06:39):
unless they're a Davian.
They do resolutely, nonpoliticalthings, which is probably, he might
be Britain's Trump, He turns up,makes a bit of a wally of himself.
Everyone says they're get empty Seeds.
Yeah.

Ian (06:49):
and.
At the end of this 90 minutes inwhich you are half asleep and some
people have left, presumably the bulkof the crowd think this is the sort
of person we'd like to be president.

Helen (07:00):
I think there's a real difference in Trump support.
There is a hardcore of supporters whoreally love it properly fall, maga.
And then I think the other big block ofpeople in this election are relatively
low information voters who, not lowengagement voters, who think that Biden
put the country on the wrong track andthink that they were richer under Trump.
Because if you remember, he handed outchecks literally with his signature on.

(07:20):
And inflation in the US hasn't been asbad as it has been here, but it was.
prices did go up.
So I think there's a,there's two dynamics.
There's some people who really love theMAGA stuff and there's other people who
think the economy was better for me, mytaxes were lower under Trump, and are
willing to ignore all the other stuff.
They either think it's a lie ora media confection, or they think
it's not that big a deal and it'soverblown and it's, it's compared to

(07:44):
the stuff that he did, they just seemas a normal Republican politician.

Ian (07:48):
Can, I bring up the F word at this point?
Because Does it matter thateveryone's calling him a fascist?

Helen (07:53):
I don't, the funny thing is that the polling shows that it is a,
it is the least good of the, Democratarguments in terms of persuading people.
but then lots of people have historically.
Voted for fascism.
This is not a thing thathas never happened before.
people, Victor Ban said, I'man illiberal democrat, and
people voted for him in Hungary.
and then what tends to happen is theelections get less and less democratic.

(08:15):
And, people become, more andmore disillusioned with it.
But then they don't havea chance to, rethink.
But I'll be

Ian (08:20):
reading this Sinclair Lewis book, which is called, it Couldn't
Happen Here in 1935, which is aboutan American president who gets voted
in and then becomes a dictator.
and he is an absolute fascist, andit's a brilliant prescient read.
by the time this podcast is out, itmay be just of historic interest, but
no more, it may be current offense,but he said, when fascism arrives

(08:43):
in America, it will come wrappedup in the flag and carrying across.
Do you get a sense of that?

Helen (08:49):
I don't think that's true.
I think it's arrived in a clanwig of making funny jokes.

Ian (08:54):
This is Mussolini time, isn't it?
Who, was called the clown?
Hitler was the serious one.
Mussolini, no, he was a joke.
And until he wasn't.

Helen (09:02):
there was a Madison Square Garden rally on Sunday night and that
one would be the one where I, I'malways really hesitant about using
these words or making comp, comparisonsbetween Israel and the actions of,
the war shall get all those things.
'cause I think you just get stuckon having that argument rather
than arguing about the substance.
But I did watch that MadisonSquare Garden rally and think.
this is a, bad business.

(09:23):
So there was, not just the usualenemies of the people, stuff about
understatement, but there was Trumpand other speakers explicitly calling
for mass deportations and it's never.
Said how these would be accomplished.
But there are a huge number ofundocumented people in America,
often with American citizen children.
because you get American citizenshipif you're born in the us The only

(09:45):
way in order to do this would beto set up an enormous police and
paramilitary state and go door to door,dragging people out of their homes.

Andy (09:52):
is it remotely in the same way that he promised to build a
big, beautiful wall and peoplecheered and then he didn't do it.
is it.
Does anyone seriouslythink it's going to happen?
Or do people just like the idea andthey're willing to count on and it

Helen (10:03):
People then say, what he's actually saying is that he would
be tough on the border and hewould restrict immigration, right?
they mentally downgrade it to alevel that is palatable to them.
All, they think it'sa rhetorical flourish.

Ian (10:15):
it is a slight change in American politics.
Say, bring me your huddledmasses and I'll deport them all.
that's new, isn't it?

Helen (10:21):
It's been a year zero in the Republican party, right?
If you think about the fact thatnobody from its history is on his
side, it's like there was a kindof terrible event that happened.
So John McCain previous.
Presidential candidate died hating him.
George W.
Bush won't come out and, campaign for him.
Mitt Romney, former Republican,, presidential candidate, voted to impeach
him and has now retired from public life.

(10:42):
Essentially.
His former vice president,Mike Pence, he tried to kill
so he's not stumping for him.
Kamala Harris is able to send out BarackObama, still a popular politician,
Michelle Obama, even more popular.
Bill Clinton has been doing events inthe South where he's still quite popular.
he, she has these surrogates from a,an idea of what the Democratic Party's
tradition and achievements were.

(11:02):
But Trump has succeeded bytrashing the institutions of the
Republican party and its personnel.
One of the most popular lineswhen he, I went to rally, which
was wild to me, was him saying.
I didn't, I, I'm the firstAmerican president for 70 years
who didn't start any wars.
In fact, I ended a war quote.
I beat isis, which was good ofhim to do that in his downtime.
But that, to somebody who came ofage as I did, like in the Iraq war

(11:24):
era where everybody hated George A.
Bush for being a kind of haw.
The fact that's where the, now, theRepublican party is, and that Dick
Cheney the great architect of the IraqWar is now voting for Harris is just it.
There's been a complete fundamentalreset in American politics that he's
accomplished because of that kindof cult of personality round him.

(11:45):
I'm not sure if he loses what'sleft of the Republican party.
Where they go from that.
That's a, I also think he, even if he doeslose, he will never concede that he lost,

Andy (11:55):
obviously.
there was some good pollingdone this morning that was about
who, how many Americans believewho would or wouldn't concede.
Quite a lot of people think Trump wouldn'tconcede if he lost, but there is a small
core of, I think it's 11% who believethat Harris wouldn't concede if she
lost, but Trump would concede if he did.
And you think.
Really,

Helen (12:14):
I'd like to play those people at poker.
course that's quiteeasy to take money off.

Andy (12:17):
so what about the Harris event then?
What was that?

Helen (12:19):
the thing, the funny thing about that was it was just really normal.
the Trump event was boring in thiscompletely surreal and bizarre way,
but the Harris event was slightly eh.
Isn't it?
yeah, they, they copied a trick fromthe Democratic National Convention,
which they had DJs beforehand.
So you get a, of sports arena full ofpeople bopping away to Dancing Queen

(12:40):
and like Sweet Dreams Are Made Of This.

Ian (12:42):
It's like all weddings.
she can't escape.
ABBA, I

Helen (12:45):
She walked onto Beyonce's Freedom and then gave a really, there
was a terrible bit where she said,why are we, why won't we go back?
her, slogan is, we won't go back.
Why won't we go back?
Because we're going forward.
Oof.
And I thought, yes, that's thekind of cliche that soothes
me, that this is, that's

Adam (13:00):
fantastically meaningless, isn't it?
That's beyond even.
Yes, we can.
That's just, yeah.

Helen (13:05):
I thought one of the things that's interesting is that the Republicans
have been trying to claim, there'sno grassroots enthusiasm for her.
it's all the media proppingher up, blah, blah, blah.
But Erie, where I wentto the Harris rally and.
Reading where I went to the Trump rally,both have 95,000 people that live there.
So the towns of equal size, ifanything, erie's harder to get to.
And the Erie rally was packed, whereasthe Trump rally actually, they'd had

(13:25):
to section off the back stalls andquite a bit of the, the floor space.
It wasn't it was only full for the camerasbecause they'd rigged it to look that way.
So Trump lying about the figure.
I know you turn up to events.
This is extraordinary.

Andy (13:39):
And the kind of tone of coverage in the UK has very much been that the,
air has gone out of the Harris souffle.

Helen (13:47):
Based around an incredibly small, within the margin of error tightening of
the polls in the last couple of weeks.
Okay.
they're essentially where theywere when she, had enormous bounce
after taking over from Biden.
People genuinely did think Biden was tooold and, at that point it was a Trump
landslide that every, everybody, includingthe Trump campaign was planning for.
She then had an enormous boost and hascoasted downwards as you would expect

(14:09):
from independence finally breaking oneway or the other, whatever it might be.
And she hasn't.
She's run a very tightand competent campaign.
She hasn't done that manymainstream media appearances.
As I said, when I swatch at theCNN Town Hall, and the answers
are quite vague and waffly, right?
She's not an Obama levelinspirational visionary.
She's a competent technocrat who,doesn't make you think I preferred

(14:34):
this in the original German.
I'm not surprised about that.
But the thing is, it comes downessentially to seven swing states.
Anybody who tells you they think theyknow what's gonna happen is lying, right?
Because it, it is matter of, Ithink Joe Biden won Pennsylvania
last time by 80,000 votes.
So you know it we'll have all thiscommentary afterwards about what it
tells us about the State of America.

(14:56):
It's redundant because we already knowwhat it tells about the state of America.
It's that a race between these twopeople is essentially tied, right?
And then you can be Trump and youcan still get 47% of the electorate
in America think that's the bit

Ian (15:09):
we don't understand from the coverage over here because as
you say at the moment, everyonethinks, oh, Trump's gonna win.
He's gonna win.
it's just too depressing for words.
the whole of America must be mad.
which isn't a very rational.
analysis of what's going on there.
But there is gen, genuine bafflementthat someone can come out, say

(15:30):
what he says and people don't care.
this is a really basic question, but why

Helen (15:35):
I think you can't discuss it without the media environment.
And I've always been slightlyskeptical of the idea that kind of
media gives people their marchingorders and then they just her off.
But if you look at America, and I think.
Adam, I'd be really interested inyour take on this because I think
it's what some people are attemptingto recreate here is a kind of Marvel
cinematic extended universe whereyou never have to hear anything that.

(15:56):
Contradicts yourpreconceptions even slightly.
So that's an alliance between themainstream news channels, the influencers,
the podcasters, this hermetic universe.
I met this Trump voting couplefrom Florida who were on holiday
who said, we're voting Trump.
I think we were much more respectedabroad when he was president.
And I went slightly unprofessionally, no.

(16:17):
And I just thought, ofcourse you don't know that.
How, where is this if you are watching?
Fox all day.
You are just, that information willsimply never reach you, and your
information has been so tightly curated.
And I think that's thepoint of polarization.
It's why I feel verylucky in Britain to have.
A spread of news outlets and a BBC,which is obliged when it puts Nigel
Farage on to also put someone fromthe Labour party on question time.

(16:40):
I just think whatever happens,you are exposed to a wider range
of opinions here than you are

Adam (16:44):
the thing he's done that has been very clever, has been to just say
to people, you don't trust the media.
The media just lie to you, and,that has been adopted wholesale.
And people can now live throughsocial media, whatever, in their
own sort of ghettoized area and justget the news that appeals to them..

Ian (17:00):
But there's me watching it thinking.
Now, who was the first person whosaid, don't trust the mainstream media?
Oh, yes, it was Bels.
it's not new this broach, but I,

Adam (17:08):
suppose you're right, Andy, there is a certain sort of authority
that comes from the fact that he'sstanding up there at a lectern on
stage and delivering it that way.
he's, as you said, he's avoiding debates.
He's avoiding questioning exceptby fairly friendly people.
But even the, the Joe Rogan interviewthat, that's just come out, he's
very deft at avoiding the question.

Helen (17:24):
Yeah.
And then tries to get him onto the subjectof whether or not in the second term he
would declassify the alien, information,which obviously Joe Rogan is mad for.
'cause he's obsessed with, aliens.
you mean

Ian (17:35):
outer space aliens?
not illegal alien alienscome in trying to work,

Helen (17:39):
perceiving whatever it was, operations in prison.
Yeah, I think you areentirely right about that.
I.
I and also I think there has been acertain boiling frog aspect, but there's
always a bump for the fact when there'sthe first presidential debate, if it's
a new person, an incumbent versus achallenger, there's always a bump for
the challenger because at the, finally,at that point, it's oh, they're standing
on a podium next to the president,like that they could be president.

(18:00):
These people are of equal worth.
And I think a similar thingis true that because someone's
standing behind a podium.
You go, oh, that's obviouslyeverything he does is presidential.
'cause he's doing president.
I remember Sienna Miller sayingthis about UPS skirting, right?
Which is, if you had 10 men chasinga 19-year-old down the street trying
to look up a skirt, everyone wouldgo, that's obviously disgusting

(18:20):
when they've got a camera intheir hands for a period of time.
Everyone was like, that's the pursuitof journalism that's got to be allowed.
And I think there's a similar kind of.
he's behind a podium, so it's

Adam (18:30):
okay.
You frame the right as you said aboutKamala, what, whatever the completely
anodized, meaningless phrase was, butif you say it to a cheering crowd behind
a podium, you can just say Absolutely.
With the right intonation, people will go,oh, this is the bit right clap, isn't it?

Helen (18:41):
Yeah.
that's, what you've learned thefirst time you go on question time,
which is just that if you say itwith enough gusto, people will
applaud and you realise the terriblepower that you hold in your hands.
The secrets out.
. I suppose while we're on, media,we should talk about the, various
endorsements that the Havel haven't been.
'cause two big newspapers havefailed to endorse anybody.

(19:02):
Yeah.
The LA Times, which is run by, PatrickSoon-Shiong who is a billionaire.
And then the Washington Post, which is runby Jeff Bezos of, Amazon and incredible
midlife crisis fame have both, have bothdeclined to endorse at the last minute.

Andy (19:16):
Jeff Bezos, one of very few people whose yacht has its own yacht.
Doesn't also have,

Helen (19:22):
his, it has his, fiance, a bust of his fiance on the front of it.
Eh, as well.

Ian (19:27):
It does,
The figurehead.
Yeah.
Wow.
Yeah.
And does it matter?
That these two mainstream mediaoutlets, don't endorse the president.

Helen (19:38):
I, think, should we fight all this, Adam?
'cause I,

Adam (19:40):
so I'm gonna come in with, we won't surprise you.
My usual take on the Americanmedia, which is, oh, for God's
sake, get over yourselves.
You pompous self importantbunch of lunatics.
No one cares what you think.
the idea that, I just love the idea thatreaders of the Washington Post, oh, no.
who am I gonna vote for them?
I haven't had my instructions.
the idea that this will changeabsolutely anyone's mind.

(20:00):
I, I did this rant, didn't I?
Ahead of our own election when,when Kirstan was desperately causing
the Murdoch papers, this exercise.
Oh, it's just the pompousness.
I sort, I just think over here,journalists, we can be incredibly
pompous, but mostly we knowour place and we know we don't.
That the difference, it's this,idea that the, the Washington
Post will speak its mind.
The LA Times will speak its mind.

(20:21):
Democracy dies in darkness.
They won't mind as long asthey can find the crossword.
Most of them it's fine.

Andy (20:29):
it's again, it's the pop star endorsement thing is
very, it is pretty alien here.
Taylor Swift endorsing or.
Kid Rock on the other side.
Yes.
He'd

Ian (20:39):
forgotten the days when Andrew Lloyd Weber would say, look, if there
isn't a Tory government, I'll go abroad.
And we all thought,ah, there's also a cost

Andy (20:49):
he made.
Did it happen in the, didit happen in the sixties?
Did it happen with, did theTROs endorse Alec Douglas Hume?
did that was Herman Hermit Okay, sorry.

Adam (20:57):
Harold Wilson was desperate to be photographed with the Beatles.
Okay.
That is fair.
He personally presented themwith their mbs, I think.
there's amazing photo shoot, which.
It comes back to me now.
Jeffrey Archer somehow managed to gethimself involved with as well, didn't he?
He did.
So

Ian (21:11):
yeah.
All of the great publicity though.
He has now endorsed Kamala Harris,which I thought was, oh no, one of
the, one of the worst but domes then

Helen (21:20):
we really are.
The Beatles wrote a whole, one, one of theweirdest Beatles songs is Tax Man, which
is them complaining about their tax rates.
That was the sort of politicalintervention basically.
Yes.
I

Ian (21:28):
mean that the Labour tax rise is very current.
No one likes them, butI think that's unfair.
I think there have beencelebrity endorsements, but.
Presumably Taylor Swift matters

Helen (21:40):
I think there's an interesting thing that two sets of endorsements
are interesting for the Democrats.
One is the celebrities, and TaylorSwift is incredibly popular.
and, and, also she just might increase,get out the vote among young people
who are reluctant to vote, right?
Just by increasing turnout.
She, that might be aninfluential endorsement.
And then there's all of the, Starsof Puerto Rican descent who appear
to be extremely angry about the, TonyHinchcliffe comedian's comments at

(22:04):
Madison Square Garden, including BadBunny, who I'm sure you're intimately
familiar with, and JLo, who youactually probably have heard of.
But, it's, not good to have that moodmusic of like people that you like.
Or endorsing someone else.
But they've also done the thing whichKeir Starmer did, which has caught
Republican, he didn't call Republicans,but he courted Tories, right?
They've wanted to reduce the costof defection in identity terms.

(22:26):
So it's like Kamala Harris has done eventswith Liz Cheney, former Congresswoman
daughter of Dick Cheney, because it's,there's a kind of whole Republicans
for Harris and a whole line that is.
You don't have to be aDemocrat to vote for Harris.
You just have to be a patriot.
go back to voting Republican after this,but this one election, we need you.
And so I think those endorsements areinteresting because a lot of people think,

(22:46):
neocons endorsing you is quite repulsive.
That's not where the zeitgeist is now.
But the counterpoint to that is seeing thepeople cross the floor might help other
people feel that they can, do the same.

Ian (22:56):
And,
when those senior military figures endorseKamala Harris and say, don't vote Trump.
even though I was,
head of staff or I was in charge of theArmy at the time, don't vote for him.
Does that matter?
Is that the equivalentof a younger influencer?
Will that get old peoplethinking, my God, the head of
the Army thinks he's a fascist?

Helen (23:18):
I met some moderate Republicans, as they would've described
themselves, who just thought it washe, that Trump had betrayed what
they saw as conservative values.
And that is a caucus of voted here.
Nikki Haley got did all rightin the primary of everybody.
She did best by being an old fashionedinternationalist, sane Republican and
not doing the cultural stuff at all.
So that caucus does still exist.

(23:39):
On the right.
It has been thoroughly marginalisedby the Republican party, but I think
there are people who do think, whydid I identify as a Republican?
It's because I believe in lowtaxes, but also institutions
and the military and the police.
The weirdest sign that I saw in thewhole time driving across was in the
rural areas, which was a Trump signthat said, I'm voting for the felon.

(23:59):
And I've just been thinking about thatever since because it doesn't match up
with, the hatred of the defund the police.
As a slogan, all the peoplewho during the Black Lives
Matter protests had pro-Police.
Ones that said, blue Lives matter.
And yet you get to this stage wherepeople who simultaneously would say
that they love the police and themilitary and the rule of law also
love that Donald Trump has stuck twofingers up at those institutions by

(24:21):
becoming an now convicted criminal.

Andy (24:23):
Yes, I'm struggling with that one too, but it's

Adam (24:25):
also the same people who are saying, what's it.
Awful.
politically led persecution of poor Donaldwho were at the rallies chanting, lock her
up about Hillary Clinton, weren't they?
Yeah.
there is, you people are perfectlycapable of holding to completely
contradictory views at the same time.

Helen (24:38):
Yeah.
And to Harris's great credit, peoplestarted chanting, lock him up at her
rally, and she held up her hands and said.
Let's the, let the courts deal with that.
Let, we are just gonna deal withthe election in November and this
is what I mean, it's, such, andthat sense from now, that's a lot

Adam (24:50):
less fun than actually getting to chant lock at lock.
that would be fun at a rally guy.

Helen (24:54):
Yeah, but that's, what I mean is this, you have this bizarre situation in
which one people are running it, what isa recognizably normal political campaign?
And some people are doing whatis half a very professionally run
campaign at its headquarters and itsad spend and then half this kind of.
mad, chaotic drama but it's

Adam (25:10):
not totally unlike what's happened over here, has it, that we have this,
form of conservatism now in a few days,we'll know whether it's Kemi Badenoch, or
Robert Jenrick that are leading it, butneither of them are coming from mainstream
conservative with a small C, arethey, we had this mad situation
where people like Jacob Rees Mogghave, been presenting themselves as
the anti-establishment candidate.
And Boris Johnson is incredibly successfulat coming basically just smashing

(25:33):
things up and acting unconstitutionallyand provoking parliament and being
knocked down by the courts and things.
And then now we're all talkingabout leaving the ECHR.
we've gone to quite anextreme on that side.
That's a long way from your sortof mainstream, old fashioned
conservative in that way.
And name

Ian (25:47):
is now embarrassing 'cause there is.
Almost nothing they want to conserve.
the disruptor party, would do better,but I presume that's the same, you
detach yourself from the old party aswith the Republicans and you do well.

Helen (25:59):
Yeah, I think it's a difference between a conservative party and
a radical right party and wheneverelse you wanna call it, I would say
that probably general and Badnockare more from the radical right than
they are from, Burkeian conservatism.
And it was traditional that whathappened in a Tory leadership election
post Cameron, is you have one sortof middle of the road person and
then one more fire breathing person.
And we go always, we go for LizTruss over Rishi Sunak, right?

(26:21):
We go, yeah.
And, that now, no, there's noteven a kind of the Nando's mild
option is no longer available.
It's just two different grades of spicy.

Andy (26:29):
But Adam, you study the endorsement thing a lot and you probably know
more individual endorsements thanI would say just about anyone in
the just a lot of who's endorsed,

Adam (26:40):
who I know

Andy (26:40):
when The Guardian went Lib Dem, so you,

Adam (26:42):
I know

Andy (26:43):
when the Independent said, let's have another coalition.
Oh.
So there is something in, maybe inthat it doesn't matter to individual
voters, but the fact that papersmight be declining to provide a.
An endorsement.
'cause they're nervous that of retributionif Trump wins or if a billionaire
proprietor says, I want to keep him sweet.
I, think in this case matter,

Adam (27:01):
it is significant, isn't it?
Because, Patrick Soon-Shiong,is not just a newspaper owner.
He is got biotech and, AI firm startupsand all sorts of things that have got
contracts within the healthcare sectorin America and could be affected.
Jeff Bezos.
Amazon.
if they decide to stop cracking down onthe way that Amazon treat their tax bill,
then that, that could be interesting.
But more to the point, he's gotBlue Origin as well, isn't he?

(27:22):
'cause they all end upin space, don't they?
All of these billionaires, that'swhat they then start, must they
start spending their money on.
but I mean that, that's largely,contracts with, the American
Defence Department and things.
So there, there are direct obviousways that their businesses could be
damaged by a vengeful, president, suchas we know Trump is promising to be.

Helen (27:45):
Yeah.
And he's explicitly saidthat's what he wants to do.
He said that there was a, a commentmade on a podcast about the fact 'I'm
gonna be watching Mark Zuckerberg' ofMeta, Facebook 'very closely, and if
he does anything wrong, I'm gonna, I'm,I'm gonna, I'm gonna see him in jail.'
I think there has, so the tech leadershave all started phoning him up.
He was recounting both on Rogan andthe most recent rally, how under Pekin,
Google had phoned him up and said howwell the McDonald's stunt had done.

(28:08):
He claimed it was themost Google thing ever.
And I thought, I think it's probablypornography actually Donald.
But well done.
And, but clearly they've all the techguys, this, the tech elite, like the
tech workforce is still, I think,donating more to a Democrat, but there
is a now a cadre of people who think,God, we better suck up to this guy.
Do you

Ian (28:25):
think that.
Trump has seen the latest privateeye cover with because I felt
that finished him off really interms of an anti endorsement.
surely, it's all over for him now.
Yeah,

Helen (28:38):
I dunno how he can recover.
What was it?
Donald McDonald.
Donald McDonald.
I enjoyed that a lot.
And I think mu Elon Musk is, theinteresting counter example to that,
which is one of the reasons he has goneall in on Trump, is it he thinks Trump
will just give him regulatory abilityto build rockets and not get in his way.
But the funny thing about both himand Peter Thiel, who is the founder of
Paler and, a big investment, venturecapitalist is that they're both

(29:02):
all with the height of capitalism.
We are these are Randian superman andboth of them really depend heavily on.
Government contracts, it's gonnahealth data and things like that,
and surveillance technologies and ai,everyone's obviously puts AI in it because
it means that people give you more money,but they, but Department of Defense
contracts for both of them are absolutely,they, they're lifeblood, so they don't

(29:22):
actually like competition all that much.
Musk came on stage and said.
So the, us I can't, the US budget issomething like, say 6.4 trillion a year.
And someone, and the guy who wasintroducing him said, how much do
you reckon you could cut out of that?
And he went, I reckon theDepartment of Government efficiency
Doge could cut out 2 trillion.
And it was like, oh, okay.

(29:43):
I, look forward to seeing you try.
But if people had to think aboutwhat that actually means in practice.
If you say, I'm sorry, we'rejust gonna, we're gonna shut
the roads, you have to know.
In order to cut that kind of figure,it would be immensely unpopular.
So people are allowed to get awaywith saying insane wild things, right?
With no then drill down.
In America that has completely gone.

(30:03):
The idea that things you say atpolitical rally have in some way to be
tethered to reality is O is so over,

Adam (30:09):
and yet here all we are hearing about is, well, Labour may have broken
and manifesto commitment dependingon how you define working people.

Helen (30:15):
And the equivalent would be ki star.
We going out and saying, Ijust, I've decided that we're
no longer gonna have bees.

Ian (30:23):
Look, we can't let Helen get away with this podcast without a prediction.
Yes, surely.
Yeah.

Helen (30:29):
I just feel like I'm the weight of a thousand humiliating sons
of being asked to do predictions.
I am gonna, I'm gonna say I'm notgonna make a prediction, but I'm
gonna say that I find myself morethan people in Britain that I talk to
optimistic about Harris for two reasons.
She is sneakily aheadin the polling still.
She's not dropped behind in thepolling and the early vote returns.

(30:51):
Look.
Good for her.
'cause lots of people, mail inballots or do in person early voting.
I think there might very well be a bigturnout among women who are driven by
the Dobbs decision to overturn, the Fed.
The constitutional right to abortion,and you probably don't hear as much from
those women because they don't spendall their time on ex screaming at you.

(31:12):
But like middle-aged women are quitereliable as a block at doing things.
They say they do.
Whereas 18-year-old men are lessreliable, I would say, at doing things
on a particular day at a particular time.
So I think I'm probably, I'm, Ithink I'm more optimistic about a
Harris victory, which is my personalendorsement, just in case anyone.
Oh wow.
Okay.
Has been waiting.
I think she'd probably did better at it.

Ian (31:34):
New I,

Adam (31:35):
will make a prediction.
I'll make a very confident prediction.
I think that most readers of the LATimes and Washington Post will manage
to cast a vote for Kamala Harris anyway.
Good.
Without being told what to do.

Helen (31:46):
But basically, yeah, about 250,000 people can swing it in either direction.
So there is no clear winner inthe way somebody who's head.
Head and we, none of it.
The polls are trustworthy becausethey've all tried to readjust what they
felt were mistakes they made last time.
And we don't know they that.
They drastically undercountedthe Democrats in the midterms
in 2022, and they drasticallyundercounted Trump supporters in

(32:07):
its previous, in 2016, for example,so that the polls have been wrong.
and if you think about the polls forthe UK election we were having MRPs that
said the Tories were gonna be on 50.
Yeah.
And then actually what happenedthere is not only were maybe those
statistically their methods wrong,but also the pole dramatically
tightened in the last couple of dayswhen the, to switched their message
to, please don't hurt us that badly.

(32:28):
We know we're going to losewhat we'd like to still survive.
so I'm afraid you, you're gonnahave to just, they call it the polar
coaster, which is that you can justcheck the polls every single day
and kind of worry yourself to death.
I've

Ian (32:39):
read a headline saying, election in Georgia, rigged by, Russians.
And then I realised it was not Georgia.
It was the country Georgia.
Love the Georgia.

Adam (32:49):
You had the wrong Georgia on your mind.

Andy (32:50):
we should probably turn to a bit more.
That was just magnificent.
We should probably turn to some, someBritish politics because, Britain
has, is capable of producing worldleading headlines as well, actually is.
that one

Helen (33:02):
about the cheese theft was the only one that really broke
through to me when I was in America.

Andy (33:05):
that was fantastic.
but there was also over the weekend,Helen, so you might have been, it
might have been on the red eye at thispoint, back from the, Caucasus, not
the Caucasus, that's the other Georgia.
Anyway, Labour MP Mike Amesburywas, suspended from the Labour
Party after there was someCCTV footage released of him.

(33:26):
Supposedly punching a man to theground and punching him a bit
more while he was on the ground.
He has lost the Labour whip.
is being investigated by thepolice, so obviously we shouldn't.
Say too much in either direction,but it might be a fun opportunity
for a little look back at politicalpunch up in previous years.
It's the sub Judas say quiz.
That's it.

(33:47):
So You are only gonna be quizzed rightnow on punch up that have already happened
and that have been totally litigated.

Adam (33:53):
Yes.
Good.
Anything

Andy (33:54):
you say is safe.
Hooray.
Mike Hansbury did say when he waselected, reelected this year, I'm
gonna fight for all my constituents.
Eventually he was gonnaalso be fighting with, yeah.
Okay.
now you remember the story of Eric Joyce,who pled guilty to attacking, four people
in the House of Commons Bar in 2012.

(34:17):
Yes.
Yes.
And there was, and he was

Ian (34:18):
entirely different 'cause he was attacking other MPs They weren't members
of the public to much lesser crime.

Andy (34:23):
Firstly, can anyone tell me what kind of event he was at?

Helen (34:26):
cliche was like the Temperance League or something.
It wasn't

Ian (34:31):
fundraiser for the AA

Adam (34:33):
Quaker meeting.

Andy (34:34):
It was a Oh, you're so close.
In the sound of it.
It was a karaoke night.
Ah, yes.
the opposite of, asidefrom Quaker meeting.
I don't say anything either,is what is the similarity?
no, he said there were toomany Tories in the bar and and
that was, why he lashed out.
It was one of the reasons.
Anyway,

Helen (34:51):
The Eric Joyce punch is known in Westminster Law as the
punch that changed politics.
Because it was his deselection in Falkirkthat led to the, if you remember, Len
McCluskey trying to get his very closeassociate to that seat, which led to the
reader of the Labour rules, which ledto the change of the Labour Leadership
election rules, which meant you onlyhad to get nominated by a certain number
of MPs and then you're on the ballot.
Which is what got JeremyCorbyn elected Labour leader.

(35:13):
Yeah.
And then Labour, not complainingstrongly enough to remain in the EU is
attributed by many to not activatingthose voters and thereby us doing Brexit.
And there is a, it's a bus fly of faith.
isn.
It isn't it?
Direct line from Eric Joyce's karaokeaddled fist to, us leaving the EU.

Andy (35:30):
Superb.
Can't fault it.

Adam (35:31):
That's what happens.
Very Joyce.
Floating like a butterflyand stinging like a bee.
Yes.
Wow.
Oh,

Andy (35:36):
excellent.
now let's go to another political punchup with a butterfly effect, actually too.
This is a great one.
We go to Rhyl In 2001the press got punched.
this was Labour's reelectioncampaign, as it were.
It's so 2001 and Prescott's a formerboxer, so yes, that makes a difference.
He was professional and actually didn'the start out doing cabaret on ships.

(35:58):
He was a ship steward.
He a steward.
Steward.
Not cabaret.
He, sorry.
You're absolutely right.
He did not do cabaret.
I've really written, he wasserving gin and tonic, which gave
Tory members a lot of chances forsnobbery, for most of his career.
Is that
Okay.
he was walloped with an egg andthen immediately lashed out.
John Lancaster, the writer has a theoryabout the butterfly effect of this one.

(36:20):
Ah, can anyone tell mehow John Prescott's punch.
Changed the course of historyin terms of the Iraq war

Ian (36:29):
was Prescott anti, and therefore, after this, his opinion was discounted.

Andy (36:34):
Not bad.
it's about how he hit the farmer whohad walloped him with an egg, right?

Adam (36:40):
Wasn't

Andy (36:41):
it?
Left hook

Helen (36:42):
that discredited un weapons detectors.
Somehow

Andy (36:46):
standing behind that farmer was Hans Blix.
No, it was, the, now that, one's good.
This is John Lanchester's theory, so puttongs of caution around it, but basically.
Lancaster reckons that he hit withhis left Prescott 'cause that was
the hand closest to the farmer.
Whereas if he'd hit with his right, hemight well have broken this guy's jaw.
Being a former boxer, which mighthave hospitalized him and meant
he actually probably would'vehad to step down as it was.

(37:08):
It was Blair said.
John is John.
John is John.
Yeah.
now if he'd had to stand down,Blair might have had to appoint
a new deputy leader of the party.
Probably one who'd had less clout withthe Labour left, which might have meant
that when Blair had his big vote on thewar in 2003, he would've had less support
from Labour backed benches, which mighthave meant he'd lost it, which might have
meant that Britain didn't get involved.

(37:28):
it's not a slam dunkbutterfly, but I quite like it.
Who would he have appointed then?
Unclear.

Helen (37:35):
If he'd ended up with Robin Cook as the deputy leader, then it
would've been quite a different, whothen had, then resigned from that role.
Maybe that would've changed.

Andy (37:45):
Forough.
What was Prescott's nickname,which predated the punch up, but
proved very apt in the event of it.
it was two Jags.
'cause

Ian (37:52):
he owned

Andy (37:53):
two Jaguars.

Ian (37:54):
Yes.

Andy (37:54):
And then he was known as Two Jabs.
Yeah,

Ian (37:56):
that's it.
Slightly inaccurately.
'cause he only hid him one.

Andy (38:00):
that was one of his nicknames.
But there's another nickname.
He had Bruiser.
Oh, you're so close.
If I say that Blair was nicknamed Bambi.
Thumper.
Brilliant.
Thumper.
That was his, other nickname.
now why in the early nineties didAlistair Campbell punch Michael White,
political editor of The Guardian?

Adam (38:20):
Oh, I know this.
It was because Michael White said it wasa good thing that Robert Maxwell had died.

Ian (38:25):
No.
He told a joke.
He told a joke about it.
I think the joke goes.
Something along these lines.
I've worked out the punch line.
What, is in the sea?
going, Bob.
And the answer was adrowning Robert Maxwell.
Yep.
it's not the most tasteful joke ever.

Helen (38:40):
But beloved podcaster, Alistair Campbell was so offended on Robert
Maxwell, presumably at that point.
Not yet, no.
Well-known pension frauds toRobert Maxwell when he was the

Adam (38:47):
man who saved The Mirror.
Great eulogies beingpaid to him everywhere.
And it was about fourdays later that went.
all that stuff that was in private eye.
He actually might not have beensuch a great guy after all.
And they discovered the 450 millionhole in The Mirror's pension funds.
And well, Campbell was politicaleditor of the Mirror at the time.
He was indeed.
So

Helen (39:03):
that's,
like punching someone over sort ofJimmy Saville's honor and then having
to go update regarding the punch.
You can now punch me back'cause I need to withdraw that.

Andy (39:10):
Look.
You've all been very impressiveback to the nineties.
We're gonna go even further back now.
Which MP and eventual Prime Ministerowed their first front bench job
to their predecessor, kickingsomeone down a flight of stairs?

Helen (39:22):
Adam looked so confident when you said, we're gonna go a bit further
back in history, but now it looks tense.
How?
How much further back?

Andy (39:28):
30 odd years.

Helen (39:29):
oh, I was going like,

Adam (39:31):
was itra bit the younger, Is it Giles Brandreth?
The answer to most of yourquestions is Giles Brandreth.

Ian (39:37):
Griff?
No, I think that's poor

Andy (39:41):
and this person's pre.
Alright, I'm gonna give you another clue.
Alan Clark.
Yeah.
This person's predecessor was, a chapcalled Sir Walter Bromley Davenport,
Tory MP for Nutsford at the time.

Adam (39:50):
Wow.
Gosh, they know how to pickhim in Nutsford, don't they?
So then they got Neil Hamilton,and then they got George Osborne.
Wow.

Andy (39:56):
okay.
Shall I tell you what happened?
Yeah, Right soon after the war.
Walter Broley Davenport, saw anunfamiliar person leaving the House
of Commons just at the time of athree line whip, like compulsory vote.
Challenged him, shouted after him.
The person kept on going.
so Walter kicked him down the stairswhen this guy refused to stop.
Anyway, the person, so Walterwas in the whips office.

(40:17):
The person he kicked down the stairsturned out to be the Belgian ambassador,
and the Consequ vacancy in the whipsoffice was filled by a young Edward Heath.
Oh
wow.
That is good.
Not Walter...
Probably not the kicking down the stairs,the ambassador, just the, information.
There you go

Helen (40:34):
Again.
I just feel like kicking the Belgianambassador down the stairs is a
Private Eye phrase in the making.
Yes,

Andy (40:40):
finally we can't have a punch up, political quiz without a, brief
mention of the UKIP, Stephen Wolf, MikeHook and Barney in 2016 in Brussels.
With what headline did PrivateEye sensitively cover this
story in the jokes pages?
Ian, I'm looking at you asyou probably wrote this joke.
Yeah.
And I'm thinking,

Ian (40:57):
I can't remember.

Helen (40:58):
Was it a pun on UKIP?

Andy (41:00):
No, it wasn't.
That would've been good.
Should I tell you?
Yeah.
Meeting Breaks Out AtUKIP Fight F Classic.
That was Nick Newman's joke.
I remember it.
Very good.
It was.
you're all winners.
You all did marvelously.
There you go.
that's it for this episode of Page 94.
Thank you very much for listening.
We'll be back again in afortnight with another one.

(41:21):
Until then, if you, wantto get more, Page 94.
Go and listen to the other episodesor go and get a copy of the magazine.
private-eye.co.uk...
subscriptions are availableand reasonably priced.
Until then, thank you verymuch to Helen, Adam, and Ian.
Thank you to you for listening andthank you as always to Matt Hill
of Rethink Audio for producing.
Bye for now.