135: Reform, The Beeb and The House Of Saud

Helen, Adam and Andy reveal what's behind the latest bunfight at Reform UK, mull over how to replace the BBC licence fee, and take a fact-finding tour of Saudi Arabia.

Episode Transcript

Maisie (00:00):
Page 94, the Private Eye Podcast

Andy (00:03):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Page 94.
My name's Andrew Hunter Murray andI'm here in the Private Eye office
with Helen Lewis and Adam McQueen.
The three of us have gathered,

Helen (00:11):
We are a slightly like a cove this week actually, as
we all sit round our radiator.

Andy (00:15):
There's a radiator in between all of us 'cause it's, it's
unseasonably cold in this room.

Adam (00:19):
Do you know what I worked out this week?
I was speculating about our colleagueHelen, and how she finds time to do
everything that she's up to at the moment.
And I thought she must have a time turner.
And I suddenly thought,my God, she is Hermionie.
Oh my.
And, and then very rapidly Ithought, oh my God, I'm Ron Weasley

Helen (00:32):
You are the Ron Weasley of the podcast.

Adam (00:33):
Ian, who is not present this week is definitely Dumbledore, isn't he?
You are.
You are the boy that lived.

Andy (00:38):
I think I'm Neville.
Uh, that's very nice to hear.
But I'm pretty sure I'mNeville long bottom.

Helen (00:43):
I did.
Um, it was a thing that cameup a lot during my adolescence.
I, I used to hang out atthis lovely tattoo shop in
Worcester, run by, uh, Americans.
And they went, oh my God,you're so like Heroni.
Which was adorable.

Andy (00:54):
Did you say you used to hang around a tattoo shop for your adolescents?
Nice.

Helen (00:57):
I had at one point nearly 20 piercings.
We can, we can deal with thison a later on, a later podcast

Andy (01:04):
is a post credits thing rather than an introductory section.
So let me just wrestle us back on course.
And so we're here to talk abouteverything that's happened since the
last edition of the magazine came out.
Uh, one thing that has broken outthat we like to keep an eye on is,
uh, the Reform Party, which completelyunaccountably and unpredictably
has fallen to a bout of infighting.

Helen (01:23):
couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of lad.

Adam (01:25):
like we said, it was going to in that, in that podcast back episode back in
July, straight after the general election.
I think at that point, maybe I saidwe, I, I reckon probably six months
they managed seven and a half nearly.
So,

Andy (01:35):
really surprised when I saw those rats trooping into that sack, I
thought harmony is bound to ensue
and I'm gutted.
So, um,
this is to do

Helen (01:44):
cause of this is Rupert Lowe, who is the MP for Great Yarmouth and
former chairman of Southampton FootballClub, who was elected as a Reform MP.
He gave an interview to Andrew Pierceof the Daily Mail, in which he said a
series of slightly mad things like I'm theOne-Eyed Man and he's the one who comes
out on top in the kingdom of the blind.
You sort of thought, whereare we going with this?
But among them, he also said, uh, we don'twanna be a protest party led by a messiah.

(02:08):
And if Nigel Farage wants to succeed,he needs some good people around him.
And, oh, fire, fire.
I know people are talking aboutme as a potential prime minister,
but it's far too early to betalking about that sort of thing.
And someone who thought it was far tooearly to be talking about that sort of
thing was Nigel Farage because the dayafter the interview came out, um, Lee
Anderson, 30p Lee, he's known in thesepages, uh, who is a Reform MP and Z Yusef.

(02:30):
The, um, chairman of the party revealedthat actually at some previous point,
complaints had been made both aboutRupert Low and about people in his office.
And as a, sadly, as a consequenceof this, while they really looked
into this and gave him really gooddue process, he was going to be
suspended, uh, from the party whip.
Rupert Lowe, perhaps notunreasonably, is uh, decided that

(02:50):
this is sort of a revenge whacking,

Andy (02:52):
it's extraordinary timing they just finally got declaring that
paperwork about all the complaintsabout him after he was read about

Adam (02:58):
But it was amazing on Sunday morning.
'cause Richard Tice, who is,we've named nearly all of the
Reform Reform mps now, haven't we?
Uh, but he went on LauraKuenssberg to say, no, no, no.
It's completely unrelated.
It's just absolutely, you know,any, any claims of bullying or
physical intimidation of absolutelygot to be taken seriously.
Meanwhile, Nigel Faragewriting in the Sunday Telegraph
pretty much said, yeah, yeah,
yeah,
no, totally.
yeah.
Yeah, He's completely out of order.

(03:19):
He is challenging me.

Helen (03:20):
it was like the OJ Simpson book.
If I did it, it was like, ifI had whacked him, then it
would've been very successful.
'cause I'm great.
But there also, it'sa pattern of behavior.
And Nigel Farage's party kept theBrexit party and now Reform is
that anybody who goes against NigelFarage does not last very long.
You know, we talk about these aspopulous parties, but all of them
essentially are Nigel Farage vehicles.

(03:40):
UKIP still exists by the way, but itcollapsed as a, as a force almost.
You know, as soon as NigelFarage left it really

Adam (03:48):
well, not for
the first time, 'cause hestepped down, didn't he?
And then he came back a couple of times,but then it, at one point it did all
seem to just slide out of his graspwhen we had people like Ger Batten and

Helen (03:56):
Oh, Oh, there's gonna be a little quiz on, on some of this later.
Oh yeah.
Look forward to

Adam (04:00):
But

Andy (04:00):
Can I just check Rupert Lowe is, as we say, one of the five.
Yep.
And he's the one who Elon Muskspotted he had leadership potential
on Twitter during January's.
Um, Keir Starmer is apaeoadophile enabler spree
of of tweeting that Rupert Lowe wasthe one who when, Musk and Farage fell
out... Musk said, this is the guy.

Helen (04:20):
Yes.
That's, that's the proximate cause really,of all of this grumpiness is that if
you're Nigel Forage, you think RupertLowe's got a bit too big for his boots.
And if you're Rupert Low, you think NigelFarage is actually a bit of a softie.
So Rupert Lowe, for example, thinksthat we need mass deportations.
He said, you know, we should have, uh,for people who arrive on small boats,
they should be put on an island somewhereand given quotes, minimal food rations.

(04:42):
he's one of those people who revels in theidea of being cruel to illegal immigrants,
not just merely saying, as most ofBritish mainstream politics does now.
We need strong borders and it's fineto be concerned about these things.
So there's a, there's, there'stwo distinct problems here.
One of which is that that type ofvery cruel, overtly populist right
politics has a pretty hard ceilingon it in Britain, and it is much
lower than the amount of votes thatreform got at the last election.

(05:05):
So Nigel Farage, I think is very wellaware of that, that if he pandered too
much to that tendency, he would losepeople who maybe once were labor voters
in those northern seats, for example.
, and you know, then there's justthe kind of, yeah, as you say, the
kind of personality aspect of it.
Rupert Lowe is.
Also another way that he represents,reforms voting base is that
he's a very online baby boomer.
Right?

(05:26):
He just, he tweets a lot or otherposts a lot on x. Ever since this,
this scandal broke, he has been onthere constantly putting out statements
saying, I have actually spoken to them.
My lawyer says this, and thelawyer comes back to him.
He's been backed up online by AndrewBridged potato loving friend of this

Andy (05:41):
property.

Helen (05:43):
You know, these are, this is a kind of distinct, and, and that's
what, as I said before in this podcast,one of the things that dis, you know,
distinguishes Tori supporters from Reformsupporters is that very online ness.
You know, the fact is that If you aresomebody who's aged over 60 and is
spending a lot of time on X, that is theRupert lowest tendency within reform.
But it's not by any means thewhole description of their, their

(06:04):
support and what they could possibly

Adam (06:05):
capture.
And it's also a field that Kemi Badenochhas pretty much got to itself, isn't it?
At the moment?

Helen (06:10):
Bless her.
I, you know, I had a steak sandwichat the weekend and I was trying
to work out whether or not thiswas Kemi Badenoch approved or not.
Steak for lunch, goodsandwich for lunch, bad

Andy (06:19):
Because reform, they're reasonably left winging, aren't they?
On things like economics.
I mean, they, they, they talk alot about nationalizing various

Adam (06:25):
things,
Yeah.
Nationalizing water companies and things.

Helen (06:27):
Another big, big split within reform and, and, and intentions
within the party between the kindof much more thatcherite Reaganite.
That's the natural Farage tendency,which is all about deregulating
the city and wealth creation stuff.
That versus, as you say, the manifestofrom the kind of mid 2010s was very
much, you know, they're not gonna besaying, let's get rid of the triple lock.

(06:47):
You, you know, you people need tole learn to fend for yourselves.
Right.
In certain senses, theyare quite protectionist,

Adam (06:53):
was the, the manifesto that said that people should have to start
dressing up to go to the theater again.
Wasn't it?

Helen (06:57):
And the circle line should be a circle again.
I proved

Andy (07:00):
sorry.
That was in a

Adam (07:00):
That was you kept manifesto.
That was one of the periodswhere Nigel Farage stepped
down and haw was it Lord Ran
or someone to

Helen (07:08):
went on an interview with John Sopel, in which they asked him about
a series of bananas things and he waslike, I'll be honest with you, I haven't,
I didn't say it like this, but heessentially, the line was, I haven't read

Andy (07:15):
it.

Helen (07:16):
Of course I haven't read it.
He I, anyway, I thought itwould be nice given that my main
takeaway about everything relatedto reform is Nigel always wins.
Okay.
I thought it'd be nice to have a littlequiz about people who are sadly no
longer with Nigel or, you know, peoplewho've cycled out of parties that he's
founded even after he's left them.
So

Adam (07:35):
happened

Helen (07:35):
UKIP's 2013 Women in Politics event that led to
Godfrey Bloom leaving the party?
You might not even need the multiple

Andy (07:42):
choice on this.
ding, ding.
ding.
ding.
Go on.
He called them sluts.

Helen (07:45):
He joked that a group of female activists was sluts
for not cleaning behind the

Andy (07:48):
fridge.
That's right.
And he meant that kind of

Adam (07:50):
sluts.
That was what was so magnificent,was the most old fashioned
use of the word slut.
Anyway, it had to be sort of explained
to everyone, no, you shouldbe taking offense, but
in a different way.

Andy (07:59):
Yeah,

Helen (08:00):
In the 2024 general election, what unorthodox campaigning tactic
did Yip leader Lois Perry adopt.
Did she A, change her last name to Brexit?
B hired a bulldog to attend all her eventswith her, or C endorse Nigel Farage,
even though he was in a different party.

Andy (08:16):
I'll go with Bulldog.

Adam (08:18):
No, you see, I think that's the false one.
'cause Andrew Rossendale
famously, but uh, had it tookhis bulldog out in, its in its
union jack coat, didn't he?
So I think that's the red

Andy (08:27):
herring.

Adam (08:27):
I
think the bulldog is the red

Andy (08:28):
herring
Tory mp.

Adam (08:29):
Yeah.
Andrew Rossendale, uh, MP for

Helen (08:32):
in Essex Romford.
He, um, he used to send out constituencyleaflets in which some of his spicier
views were attributed to the Bullock.
The sort de plausible

Adam (08:40):
It wasn't me, it was the

Andy (08:41):
blame the dog.

Adam (08:42):
That's called implausible
deniability,

Helen (08:44):
was like Winston's very worried about illegal migration.
Yeah.
Anyway,

Adam (08:49):
I'm gonna change the name to Brexit.

Helen (08:50):
Of course, it was Shin endorse Nigel Farage, even though he was
in, okay, so Andy's leads one Nil.
Stephen Wolf was notoriously pictured,sparked out on the floor of the
European parliament after an altercationwith an aptly named fellow Kopp.
MEP.
What was the MEP

Adam (09:05):
Buzz.

Helen (09:06):
Alright.
And you don't even needthe multiple choice.
I can give you them if you want,and then you get first go at it.
Jeff, Dan Punchy.
Jeffrey Decker, Mike Hookem or David

Adam (09:17):
Nutter?
It was Mike Hookem.

Helen (09:19):
It was Mike Hooker.
Hook

Andy (09:20):
Mm. And they, they had a fight.
Mano Ill

Helen (09:24):
Mano Mano.
I mano.
Yeah.
That

Andy (09:25):
Yeah.
That was the phrase one of them

Helen (09:26):
Yeah.
Uh, Mike Hookem, uh, over whether or notStephen Wolf was going to try and defect
to the conservatives, would you like toknow what happened next to Steven Wolf?

Adam (09:34):
got taken to

Helen (09:35):
hospital.
Well, yes, that's true.
But he resigned from Kopp in 2016 sayingit become ungovernable without Farage.
Round one.
He later tried to join reform asa candidate, but wasn't accepted.
Thanks to Nikki Sinclair a Kopp, MEP from2090 2010, which unexpectedly woke record.
Does the party hold.

Andy (09:54):
it was sort of both the head and the deputy head of the
party being women first in the uk,

Helen (09:59):
kind of in the right genre.
She was the first Britishtransgender parliamentarian.
Oh.
Would you like to know what happenedto her in, uh, her membership of Yu

Andy (10:06):
resigned and left the party.

Helen (10:07):
She was expelled from the party.
After objected into the extremeviews of the EFD grouping, that
Kopp sat within European parliament.
She then founded the We demanda referendum party, although
it was basically just her.

Adam (10:18):
Okay.
So I
demand
a referendum kinda undertrade descriptions.

Helen (10:23):
Okay.
Which of the following peopleelected as a representative of one
of Nigel Farage's parties did notsubsequently quit or get expelled?
Okay.
Douglas Carswell, mark Reckless.
Nigel Farage, former expressjournalist Patrick O. Flynn,
former leader Suzanne Evans.
Calvin Robinson.
A priest ish.
Carl Benjamin.
A k Sagan of a CAD UKIPleader, Henry Bolton.

(10:45):
Mark Meam.
A K count.
Dan, you could leader Diane.
James,

Andy (10:50):
I've forgotten the question.

Helen (10:51):
One of them is still in the party that they

Andy (10:53):
joined.

Helen (10:53):
Okay.
A party that was at one pointfounded by an LED by Nigel Farage.

Adam (10:57):
I'm gonna go Diane

Helen (10:58):
James.
Oh,

Andy (10:59):
Henry Bolton.

Helen (11:00):
Henry Bolton.
I'm afraid he was no confidence.
Does Uip leader of his girlfriend'sracist text about Meghan Markle?

Adam (11:05):
Yes.
Mm-hmm.

Helen (11:06):
Yes.
Diane James lasted 18 days asleader, own less than half a
trust, and she was then coed.
She left to be an independent,the person who joined pp and is
as of this morning still EU KIPP'slead spokesman Calvin Robinson.
No.

Adam (11:20):
No.
Yeah, you were joking.
When did he join?

Helen (11:23):
He only joined like in the last year or so.
So it's a post Nigel join of Yuki,but he, he joined and he, he stud

Adam (11:30):
but he's living in America, isn't he?

Helen (11:31):
he?
oh,

Adam (11:32):
someone sent me a Crown Crowdfunder to buy my house in America.

Helen (11:34):
Did you

Adam (11:35):
contribute?
Oddly, no.

Helen (11:37):
Douglas Carswell quit in 2017.
Mark Reckless quit uip joinedthe conservative group, left to
be an independent, joined theBrexit party, then joined the
Abolished, the Welsh Assembly Party.
Reason, the Brexit whenachieved, then joined Reform.
Naja Raj has previously discussed.
Quit several times.
Patrick O. Flynn left for the SDP.
In 2018, Suzanne Evans left over.
Gerald Batten appointingTommy Robinson as an advisor.

(11:59):
Carl Benjamin was also adjoined atthe same time as Tommy Robinson.
He was expelled for his extreme views.
Uh, count Dan left after internaldisputes and then most recently ran
for the Scottish Libertarian party.

Adam (12:11):
Tommy Robinson's been, uh, the root of a couple of these, haven't they?
'cause the whole, um, the altercationwith Musk back in January when, when
he said that Rupert Lowe would be abetter leader, that was over, Rupert
Low would be more friendly to TommyRobinson joining, joining the party,
which is obviously is, is is kindathe red line for Nigel Farage, isn't

Helen (12:26):
it?
Yeah.
Can

Adam (12:27):
I

Andy (12:28):
ask you,

Helen (12:29):
Helen?
Yeah.

Andy (12:31):
That
quiz?
Yeah.
What has it
taught us
have we learned that there is areal dearth of talent and only
far is capable of filling thespace on the right and persuading
people that his ideas are decent?
'cause he is very persuasive.
He has attracted millions ofvotes in various elections.
All these other people seemto be absolute no hopers.
Why

Helen (12:51):
I, I'm, I'm really reluctant to go along with the great man theory
of history, but I think if you lookat both Nigel Farage and Donald Trump,
, they matter in historical terms.
I don't think, as you say that theBritish radical right would've got to the
stage that it had without Nigel Farage.
Now if you talk to Dominic Cummings, he'swill say, there's a reason we quarantined
all those people and leave EU and didn'tlet them anywhere near vote leave.
You know, we needed to build abigger coalition, but he's got.

(13:15):
An appeal, which is related tohim being kind of upbeat and
smoking a fag and drinking a pint.
And you know, he's just got apersonality and a kind of charisma
and a style And, you know, he hasoccasional flashes of nastiness.
But I think some of the things that yousee with the, some of the less successful
and more extreme right people on that listis that the nastiness is overly exposed.
Right?

(13:35):
With Farage, there's a kind of bonna

Adam (13:37):
Mm-hmm.

Helen (13:38):
And I think if you'd start just talking about how you wanna
deport people that is in Britain, atleast a kind of losing proposition.
And, and Nigel Farage has always beenvery careful about walking the line
about you just asking questions or sayingwhat legitimate concerns or framing
it as a part of a wider anti-elitism.
And then some of the people who try anddo a Nigel RA's impression just come out
and go, you know, I don't like foreigners.

(14:00):
And people go a bit much.

Adam (14:02):
And that's what's run him into trouble more recently, hasn't it?
'cause you know, this is a manwho was also on the record saying,
you know, Putin is the mostimpressive politician in the world.
And, and, and being very, very much onDonald Trump's side throughout everything

Helen (14:12):
Trump being in the White House this time around and the kind of more unchained
version of Trump is a real problem forhim and indeed for all of Europe's popula.
And Ben Ansel, the, uh, politicalscientist has just written a very
good subset post about this, butbeing tied to Putin is a real problem.
You know, if elites have a go at youand you're a populist politician for
being, you know, chaotic or whateverit might be, or being extreme,

(14:33):
that doesn't necessarily hurt you.
'cause you kind of say, well,you would say that, wouldn't you?
You're just scared of me.
You're scared of people like me.
But being tied to an enemy, aforeign enemy is really bad.
And it's obviously something that, um,Farage is, you know, it's, it's sensitive
to, 'cause he was on Russia today, youknow, he has, tried to kind of triangulate
on the Ukraine war in a way that, theother politicians, you know, kamy bad,

(14:55):
not being an obvious example, have not.
Uh, and that I thinkthat could really, really

Adam (14:59):
is literal political nor shock.
It was what did for Jeremy Corbinin the end wasn't, it was the moment
in 2018 where he appeared to besympathetic to, to Russia and said
that we should send samples of the, ofthe, the poison that was found in, in
bury over to Russia.
Not to
poison put in, but
just say, okay, no, no, no.
Definitely not
mine never seen it

Helen (15:15):
before No.
Yeah.
So I think that's, I think again, that'sanother real problem that the, that
they have at the moment and populistparties across Europe have, is that that
feeling that they are not nationalistsin the way that they would like to be.
That they're now in an alliancewith a kind of, you know,

Andy (15:28):
know, are globalists.

Helen (15:29):
they're globalists.
They are globalists, but unfortunatelytheir, yeah, their set of allies are, are
Russia and Iran and, you know, and China.
Um, so I think that's, I thinkthat's really damaging to them.
But the main thing we'velearned is that it's very

Andy (15:40):
funny.
right now we come to our second storyof the week, which is from, I'd say the
other end of the political spectrum.
Just about to reform.
This is about the BBC because CharlotteMoore, who's the chief Content Officer
and has been for some years, hasannounced she's off, uh, the BBC's new
chairman, Sammy Shaw, has given hisfirst big interview where he's been

(16:02):
talking about the direction of the BBC.
We are coming up, the BBC'slicense to operate runs out.
And it's all about how they'regoing to pay for, , what comes
next, the following decade.
'cause these things are normallydone every, every 10 years.
So it's a time.
Of change, just trying to, I'm biddingfor some documentary voiceovers at the
moment.

Helen (16:20):
Tom Hanks can't take all of the Atom resort.
You could do it.
The gentle puffing

Andy (16:24):
So they're in a bit of a state as is TV in general.

Adam (16:26):
Yeah, I mean the Charlotte Moore thing, um, it just seems to have taken
everyone by surprise as far as I can tell.
No one really has a a, abrilliant explanation for as yet.
She, Moore had accumulated an enormousamount of power around herself at the BBC.
I mean she was, by the end of it, I thinkshe was chief Content officer, which is
basically sort of lord of everything.
It really is.
She'd taken over so manybriefs from other people.
You know, we used to have, um, channelcontrollers who used to be, you know,

(16:48):
a big deal back in the days of whenit was Michael Grade canceling Dr.
Who or Alan Yentobgetting rid of El Dorado.
You know, these were
kinda like household name type people

Andy (16:56):
out every single episode of this pocket.
Last time it was the wheel Tappersand Shunters Club or something.
This time it's

Adam (17:02):
El
Dorado Oh, come on.
El Dorado's much more recent than that.

Andy (17:05):
So what you're saying is
Charlotte Moore was akind of, uh, Cromwell

Adam (17:09):
figure.
She drew in An
awful lot of different parts of the BBCtook over the whole of TV and radio,
which used to be separate divisions.

Andy (17:15):
Because it's a really, really byzantine organization.
There's a director general.
Then there are about 50 layersof different management soup.

Adam (17:22):
Yeah.
there's this whole other wing calledBBC studios, which is the commercial
wing that no one quite understands the

Helen (17:27):
No.
And then, and then it will have superIndies like, so it'll have independent,
um, production companies that arenonetheless wholly owned by the BBC and
the bit that there, people often withinthe b BBC say this to me and I want to go.
It's that just still the B, B, C

Adam (17:39):
then
Apparently not.
No.
So, and also BBC studios makingprograms for other people
as well as are ITV studios.
It's all a very

Andy (17:45):
confusing
lens.
So it's loco, I, I don't understand

Helen (17:48):
of it.

Adam (17:48):
but Charlotte Moore was this extremely powerful figure go and she
was definitely in the running to be, youknow, a future director general that may
be a remote controller on our last issue.
Speculated that that may be whatit's done, that you, these days you
are not gonna get to be directorgeneral and, head of the whole BBC
without some experience out there inthe, um, in the independent sector.

Andy (18:05):
So what, the main.
Problems facing the BBC as it comes upfor the, the charter renewal in 2027.

Adam (18:12):
big one has to be the future of the license fee and whether that is
gonna carry on, be, I think, reallyinteresting by the way that Shair Samir
Charles, the chairman of the BBC's first.
Interview that he did was with the times.
Uh, so a Rupert Murdoch paper that hasbeen strongly ideologically opposed to
sort of the very existence of the BBC andcertainly the public funding of the BBC
through the license fee for many years.
So, you know, that's, that's, that'sgetting right out there and not, not

(18:33):
talking necessarily to the friendliestof sources, but the debate over the
license fee has changed enormously,um, in the fact that these days, you
know, most of us are, or those who canafford it, at least are, are subscribing
to various other forms of television.
You know, be that Netflix,Amazon Prime, Disney Plus.
There are absolutely somany of them out there.
Um, so the, the idea that you just havea sort of universal public broadcast to

(18:56):
service, uh, which you are obliged topay, um, currently 169 pound, 50 a year
for, I think is much, much less, tenable.
And certainly Lisa Landy, whois the culture secretary we've
seen, has been floating ideasof different ways of funding.
I mean, a very bizarre incident beforeChristmas where she floated, or those
close to Lisa, Andy floated the ideaof, uh, of it being funded out of

(19:19):
taxation only to have that prettymuch immediately shot down by the
government of which she was apart.
But, you know, there is verydefinitely a, some, some, some
thinking about what's gonna happennext going on at very, very high

Helen (19:28):
levels.
Shaw's theory is, uh, one of the things hetalks about in the interview is the idea
of a kind of, some kind of levy that isessentially like proportional tax, right?
I think one of the things that he says,which I think is a fair point, is that
it's not fair that it is essentiallya flat rate of 170 quid no matter what
your income, whether you're a millionaireor somebody who's struggling to get
by,

Adam (19:46):
which I think is utterly bonkers because surely the only
way of justifying it is going,no, it's not a tax on everyone.
And if you suddenly say, well, it'srelated to the size of your property,
which was specifically what you floated,if you've got a sort of a five bedroom
property, well you might have five talliesin it, so you need to pay more for that.
I, that, that one just seemed tobe a complete non-starter to me.
I think it's a bizarre one.
I think, I mean this is absolutelyonly my personal opinion.

(20:08):
I think at some point they are gonnahave to go over to a subscription model.
And I think that the BBC are goingcompletely the wrong way about that
because the way for the BBC to sellitself in a marketplace is to say, we
are the BBC, this is the stuff thatwe do that no one else is going to do.
And that is enormously appreciatedby people in this country.
However much they, they mightmoan about the license fee.
BBC news is massively trusted.

(20:30):
It's still where people end up.
I mean the, the BBC News channelitself, which I still think of
as being this slightly obscurething that only nerves like media.
It's got a reach ofover 10 million a month.
I mean, the people are atany sort of national event.
That's where people go immediately bethat, you know, the, the royal deaths
or coronations or just, you know,sort of terror attacks or anything.
That is the first port ofcall for a lot of people.

(20:51):
The other thing that people areshowing is that they are willing
to pay for news these days.
They're not willing to pay for newspapersnecessarily, but there is an appetite.
People are, as things fracturemore, there is an appetite for
paying for trusted news sources.
Be that substack of people who you, whose,whose writing you like and you trust or.
I mean, GB News ischarging considerably more.

(21:12):
Judge GB News has membership.
You can watch GB News anyway.
It's, it, it's on, it's on, um,Freeview or, or, or, or satellite.
But there are people out there, thereare GB news, uh, viewers who are
willing to pay up to something like 200pounds a year to be members of GB News
and get exclusive behind the scenes

Helen (21:27):
footage.
What on earth do you get for 200 credit?
Do you get to kind

Adam (21:30):
like

Helen (21:31):
go on and shout at one of the hosts or

Adam (21:33):
something like that?
You get to be racist in the comments,uh, as we revealed in, in, in an issue.
A couple of editions back.
And you also get exciting thingslike Christopher Chop telling viewers
why he decided to defect from theTelegraph and go and work for GB News

Andy (21:45):
okay.
So 170 quid a year?
Yeah.
Is what?
That's about 14 pounds

Adam (21:49):
month.
something like

Helen (21:50):
that?
Yeah.

Andy (21:51):
So most other.
Platforms are charging.
Not a huge amount, less than

Adam (21:55):
that.
Netflix 155 pound 88.
Okay.
So for Disney 109, just to give you a
couple of

Andy (22:00):
of comparisons.
Okay.
So for Netflix, for example,what you are getting is a,

Adam (22:04):
a lot of

Andy (22:06):
not brilliant TV and movies and some really good ones as well.
That, that you
will

Helen (22:11):
be
able to
how could you be so rudeabout with Love, Meghan?
And I know

Andy (22:14):
love
it.
, I suppose the, the thing I want to know is how on earth can these
things be compared with each other?
It's really hard.

Adam (22:21):
And
then well they can't becausethe BBC is providing you apart
from anything else with radio.
Um, which is an entirething on top of that.
But also there's an awful lot ofstuff that the BBC does, which I
think is the stuff that justifiesits existence as a public service
broadcaster and is appreciated by people.
But that seems to be the stuff thatthey're insistent on cutting back on.
So last year we had massivecuts to BBC local radio, which
is a, a huge thing for a reallyunserved older audience out there.

(22:45):
there was also, there were also attemptsto cut back on the funding of sort of
orchestras and choirs and that support ofmusic, which isn't just about supposedly
elitist, kind of classical music either.
'cause the other thing they cutback on was BBC introducing, which
is a real thing where there a localradio and, and t TV people are out
there in communities supporting kindof younger bands coming through.
And that music industry that'sincredibly hard to break into

(23:06):
or to make any money from.
You know, these, these are the sortof things that a public service
broadcaster ought to be doing.
And you are not gonna find Netflixgoing out there and doing that.
You're certainly not gonna findDisney going out and doing that.
I mean this might be sort of thetical,but, but things like Call the Midwife
or vigil could sit perfectly well onany of these subscription services.

Helen (23:24):
I think that's a bit harsh.
'cause I'm not sure actually.
I mean, caller Mouth is now anabsolutely massive banker of a hit.
But if you had tried to get thatgoing as an independent commission for
Netflix, I dunno if they would've said,I mean, a every TV production company
you talk to, you says, we don't reallywanna do period drama and you go.
You, you seem to be doinga lot of it nonetheless.
But, but then one of the things thatwas, uh, reported on the Sunday Times

(23:44):
this weekend is about the kind ofnightmare state of drum actually.
The, um, the guardian observerhad some stuff on this too, about
sort of even very senior producersworking as shelf stackers now.
'cause it's, you know, the big,a big drought in that industry.
But essentially saying that theproblem is you can't do things, you
can't do anything approaching prestigeTV or even normal Sunday night TV
now without a co-production sponsor.

(24:04):
The guy who was behind commissioning,um, Mr. Bates against the, versus the
post office said I couldn't, I couldn't

Andy (24:09):
do
that So basically the Bess or IV in thatcase stump up some of the money and a

Helen (24:14):
bigger,
Yeah, about half often.
And then a bit more half comes froma, an international, um, sponsor.
Now, you know, Netflix did have ToxicTown, which is an, um, one of those
kind of issue and events dramas.
So it is possible, but I don't, I, itreally worries me about that, that,
and I, I sort of take your point,Adam, but I just think people need
to sort of buy into the B, B, C as a.

(24:35):
Concept.
And I, I always wonder if you strip awaythe bits that people really like stuff
that would do well in the commercialsector, like strictly come dancing,
say, then it just, it sort of denudethe kind of round offering of everything

Andy (24:47):
that
they
do.
You're saying you have to have the bigshows in a way to justify the smaller
ones as well, even though the smallerones are the thing that you do that are

Helen (24:55):
unique.
Well, I guess the main problem iswhen you're talking about this kind of
cutbacks is the linear channels they'vejust got to fill at least, you know,
even if, um, BBC only broadcast in theevenings or whatever, they've got to,
well now online, but you know what I mean?
They, for BBC one and BBC two, they've gotto fill 24 hours of scheduling every day.
Netflix doesn't, I mean, it'snot got any pretension to that.

(25:15):
You could obviously watch Netflix 24hours a day if you wanted to, but I
wonder at some point, do the linearchannels end and at that point that

Adam (25:22):
it's become, I
think again, that's something that'sinevitable and I'm not talking about
that being, um, um, in the near future.
But I mean, if you're talkingabout planning for charter periods,
charter periods are 10, 10 yearseach, and you've gotta be looking
to the one after that as well.
So I mean, I mean, at some point that isthe thing that always amazes me is not
only the number of people who are stillwatching linear TV and just switching
on and seeing what's on, it's the numberof TV listings, magazines that still

(25:43):
seem to be doing really, really well.
It's one of the greatmysteries of journalism.
There's about five or six differentoptions of matter, and you just think,
well, but, but, but, so people arestill going out with their highlight
pen and putting the ring round things.
So I mean, , that is stillvery, very definitely there.
But, um, The co-production thingis kind of an argument against that
as well, that maybe they should belooking at doing more things like that.
I mean, so a doctor who at the momentis a co-production between the BBC

(26:06):
and Bad Wolf Studios, isn't it?
Which is Ru t Davis and Judy Gardner

Helen (26:09):
set
up
and funded by Disney

Adam (26:11):
funded by Disney and funded by Disney and outside of Britain.
It goes out on the Disney Channel.
Now that doesn't seem tohave worked out that well.
There are rumors that that, thatDisney are very much thinking of, of,
of pulling out, pulling out of thatat the end of this particular deal.

Andy (26:22):
but
that, and that sounds like more ofan international thing anyway, or
it'll give an international skew,whereas what works really well, like
the local radio you're saying isthings that actually reflect where

Adam (26:31):
people
are
where people are and giveyou a, a, an offering.
I mean, the other thing about localradio is that that is a network that any
news provider would kill for, isn't it?
It's people embedded in their communitieswith connections to that community so
that if something happens in Runcornor Witness or Southampton or whatever,
you've got boots on the ground basically.
It, it, it's out there.
It's, it's a really justifiable thing.

(26:52):
And the other bizarre thing thatI find that the BBC are doing in
terms of when you're talking aboutstuff that will work on streaming
services, if you go to the iPlayer,there's quite bizarre things on there.
So Meghan Markle, another showof hers suits, which is old, it's
from before she, before she marriedPrince Harry, all eight, seven or
eight series or something of thatare all up on the eye player as is.
And this amazed me, the simplelife with Paris Hilton and Nicole

Helen (27:13):
Richie

Adam (27:14):
Which was on when I was in my twenties.

Helen (27:16):
I'm gonna sell you something that's gonna really upset you, which is that
that stuff is on iPlayer because it'sfor people your age of my age about stuff
that they remember of their youth, whereasactual, today's young people are not
watching even iPlayer, they're watching
TikTok and YouTube.
and that's the, that, I mean, that'sthe main thing is how does how does the
BBC capture anybody under the age of 40?
Really?
you are now entering the kind ofold demographics that, that, that

(27:37):
people from traditional media are

Adam (27:39):
educated to.
And as happened when newspapers wentonline and started largely, um, flogging
their wares through Facebook and Twitter,most people aren't aware of who made
something or where it was originally.
Um, I mean, you know, if you're watchingan awful lot of TV is watching small
clips on either TikTok or YouTube.
Now it might have a little BBClogo in the corner, but, but hardly
anyone is going to notice that.
And as far as they're concerned, they'rewatching it on TikTok or YouTube.

(28:02):
That's where

Helen (28:02):
their
loyalties
lie,
One thing that was really pleasingwas the fact that Mr. Beast, you know,
the Megaton YouTuber has had a lot oftrouble making a mainstream reality
TV show, and it's one of those thingsthat's quite pleasing where it's like,
oh, actually the gradient for makingbig telly is actually quite tough.
You know, it's not like these newguys have got all the answers.
Actually, sometimes there arethings that are, that are really

(28:23):
genuinely hard that we just don'tappreciate enough 'cause only

Andy (28:25):
good
people
do
them.
The basic problem is that allTV's in a huge amount of trouble.
The BBC's just a huge example of a huge

Helen (28:32):
tape TV maker.
a similar thing happened tovideo games where they, all the
consoles got into a race abouthow good they could look, right?
They just needed huge amounts ofcomputer power because what they thought
people wanted was the raindrops to lookreally realistic on the end of your
gun as you shot someone in the face.
Sorry, I've been playing alot of Far Cry this weekend.
I have done a lot of that and actuallysome of the best and most beloved video
games are actually pretty kinda lo-fi, butwhat it meant is it put them into a kind

(28:55):
of arms race on, on graphical processingand, and that jacked up all of the prices.
It meant that often titles were releasedwhen they weren't really that particularly
finished, and you had to have a day oneupdate and a sort of weirdly similar
thing has happened with tv, which isthat the streamers entering the market
has just jacked up the quote unquotequality level of anything, right?
You had all of those interviews aroundthe Crown that were like, we remade the

(29:15):
entirety of Diana's wedding dress andpeople's expectations, rather than just
going, oh, she's put her on a white dress.
You know, sort of that

Andy (29:22):
for vaguely

Helen (29:23):
do have gone up, which is again, the story of what's happened to Dr.
Who, right?
It used to be the fandom loved thefact it was all filmed in a quarry.
They'd be like, oh, there'sa quarry episode standing
in for an alien PA planet.
Now it's CGI up the wazoo, and it doesn'tactually make it any more lovable.
Doesn't make the stories any better, itjust makes it a hell of a lot more spendy.

(29:43):
But that's deemed to bewhat audiences demand.
A level of spendy that means it's costingthem two, 3 million, um, dollars an hour

Adam (29:51):
the other thing that I think will happen is the death of soaps.
Um, because they are one thing that Idon't, I mean, they're, they're not doing
well now on linear TV channels, neitherEast Enders, which has just celebrated
its 40th anniversary are, or CoronationStreet, know, that we just, right down
there from the 26 million who watchedDe and Angie, which was obviously was
exceptional, but right down from the sortof tens and billions that they used to.
And also they don't work onstreamers as we discovered with
Amazon Prime had that really weirddecision to bring back neighbors.

(30:14):
Uh, after it went out a couple of yearsago and, and have rethought that it
just wasn't getting the viewing figures.
So whether we'll be seeingEast Enders through to its 50th
anniversary or Coronation Streetthrough to, its, where are we at now?
70th
75th.
Who is that

Andy (30:25):
that just 'cause they're very expensive to, because you'd
think they're like podcasts.
They're just podcasts withvisuals, you know, you can make
them for ages and ages and ages.
The quality doesn't have to be veryhigh present, company accepted.

Adam (30:35):
but I think, again, as Helen was saying, it's the pressure on
ramping up the quality of it andthe, the, the, the events of it.
I mean they used to be episodes EastEnders, if you've watched them on uk
Gold of was kind of was will loftyget his sewing machine to work and
um, will ha will Ethel take littleWillie out for a walk today And these
days, you know, it's how many timeshave they blown up the Queen Vic now

(30:55):
it seems sound about twice a week.

Andy (30:58):
And yet one of the big successes of BBC two only connect.
is made for nothing.
The prize is a piece of Perspex.
It gets huge viewing figures.
It gets really, really decent

Adam (31:06):
viewing
figures.
All all of those late afternoonquizzes as well do, I mean,
you, your pointless is and

Helen (31:12):
you,

Adam (31:13):
um,
anything involving Bradley Walsh,

Helen (31:15):
I always feel, bad for the people on Pointless 'cause they have the thing
we know and the jackpot's only like1,250 'cause it's the first day and
then there's two of them and they'relike, what are you gonna spend it on?
They're like, you can see in theireyes they're going sort of just about a
holiday, isn't it?

Andy (31:31):
now let's take in a little bit of glorious spring sunshine in Riyadh.
Uh, let's get
Al. Yes, the
currency.
Thank you.

Helen (31:39):
no.
Okay.

Adam (31:40):
no.
Andy.

Andy (31:42):
Let's go to Saudi Arabia, uh, where all sorts of very consequential
meetings have been happening recently.
So the initial US Russian summitsover ending the war in Ukraine, uh,
took place there a month or so ago,and Vladimir Zelensky recently flew
there for meetings with, uh, USofficials with the same aim in mind.
And it's an interesting place, notleast because Britain has very, very,

(32:04):
very strong ties to Saudi Arabia andthe role of Saudi Arabia is changing.
Britain seems to be absolutely determinedto clinging on it's extraordinary.
I went through the last sixprime ministers we've had.
They've
all.
I wouldn't say, not put a foot wrongwith Saudi Arabia, but they've, they've,
they've clung very closely to nurse.
Boris Johnson was just there for a half

Helen (32:23):
term holiday.
Wasn't he just, um, in fact, actually,when, when, you know, one of my favorite
media outlets carried Johnson's Instagramfeed was posting all the way through the
half term holiday, these gorgeous vistaof what looked like the kind of Maldives,
just like lovely white sand beaches,adorable blonde head backs of children's
heads because she desperately wantsto post pictures of her kids, but also

Adam (32:42):
knows
that
she's, they haven't got faces.
The hair just goes all the

Helen (32:46):
around leading to

Adam (32:47):
Dad
long running.

Helen (32:48):
Adam's Long
running conspiracy
theory,
that there's a family of

Andy (32:50):
cousin,
eats,

Adam (32:51):
running.

Helen (32:51):
around.
Um, but anyways, and the end of theweek she said, oh, by the way, of
course it was the Red Sea Marriott.
I looked it up.
She said, it is quite expensive.
I thought, are we, are wepaying for this ourselves?
Who knows, if you are paying for yourself,the entry level room is a thousand pounds
a night.
Um, and I suspect theymay have had one of the

Andy (33:07):
rather more charming

Helen (33:08):
fillers.
But you know, it's part of the Mohammadbin Salman, the Crown Prince, and
kind of de facto ruler at the moment.
It's part of his Red Sea projectwhere he wants to put a huge amount
of investment into, turning SaudiArabia into a real tourist destination.
So this is all, as you're saying,part of this kind of wider image
rehab.
No longer will we be the place ofpeople getting their hands chopped

(33:29):
off and throwing homosexuals offbuildings and not letting women leave
the house with their a buyers on.
Instead, come to our beautiful Japanesesushi banquet and you might run into

Andy (33:39):
Boris
Johnson.
Yes, exactly.
This is all part of a thingthat is called Vision 2030.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, which Saudi Arabia is very keento talk about, broadly it means
they want to make themselves lessdependent on oil and more dependent on,

Helen (33:53):
things

Andy (33:54):
like
owning Influencers,
influencers, and owning allsports, uh, which are growth areas.
so that is certainly whatthey want to talk about.
There is a very convincing counternarrative that actually a lot of the
reforms, quote unquote, that have beenmade of are, are rather skin deep.
And if you say anything, uh,critical about Mohammad bin
Salman, you will be in prison, uh,

Helen (34:14):
very,
very
quickly.
Well, my Atlantic colleague, Graham Wood,went and did a very big cover profile
a couple of years ago with Mohammadbin Salman, and he mentioned he's got,
um, MBS as he's known, he's got a tick.
You know, he's got, he, he does thisthing where he looks like he's sort
of gulping and it is completely,forbidden anywhere in Saudi media.
This is like one of thesethings that is just unspeakable.
And, and actually I was going to readthe Foreign and Commonwealth Office,
um, advice about going to SaudiArabia and they said, you know, do

(34:36):
not criticize anybody in the regime.
Also, it's possible they mightdig up your social media comments
from years and years ago,

Andy (34:42):
Well,
In October, 2018, a Saudijournalist, Jamal Khashoggi,
uh, was invited to go to the,

Helen (34:48):
uh, the
Saudi, it

Andy (34:49):
a Consulate,
cons

Adam (34:50):
in Istanbul.
Yeah.

Helen (34:50):
yeah.

Andy (34:51):
Istanbul In
Istanbul uh, where he was murdered.
And it is believed by variouswestern intelligence agencies
that this was done on, on,

Adam (34:57):
in fact, with

Andy (34:58):
the say so, in effect on the instructions of Moham bin Salman, that led
to a distinct, uh, withdrawal by the Westfrom all sorts of various Saudi ventures.
There is a, a thing that gets calledDavos in the desert, which is a, is
a big Saudi deal making jamboree.
Lots of banks, lots ofgovernments didn't go.
They went, back extremely quickly.
And this is the thing.
So I did, I did have a look throughthe record of the, the last six

(35:19):
prime ministers on, on Saudi.
So Ki Steiner went, uh, in DecemberThe, the thing he said, uh, the last
time someone else went to Saudi was,when he accused Boris Johnson in 2022
of 'going cap in hand from dictator
to
dictator, he's now seemed to realize that

Helen (35:32):
is
quite a
good
thing

Adam (35:33):
to do,

Helen (35:33):
Right.

Andy (35:34):
saying we have to win contracts and investment around the world at
UAE and Saudi Arabia are key partners.
So.
That tune really has changed.
Richie Soak met him in 2022,invited him over in 2023.
Liz Trusts got in with a callwhen she became Prime Minister.
Sadly, there wasn't time totake things any further, but

Adam (35:50):
there wasn't time for

Andy (35:51):
a
waitress delivery.
No, exactly.
They, they got along famously,basically, uh, Boris visited in 2022.
He was actually there, uh, in the countryabout 10 days before Khashoggi was
murdered, which is better than being there10 days after Khashoggi was murdered.
But nonetheless,

Adam (36:04):
he
was
quite vocal about the Khashoggi

Andy (36:06):
at
the time,
wasn't
he?
He was.
He

Adam (36:07):
He was.
He was.
Um,

Andy (36:07):
Um, but probably not now.
No, he seems to have, uh, recovered,uh, his, his bonomy Theresa May is an
interest 'cause she's, she was PM at thetime of Khashoggi murder and, um, made
very clear what what she thought about it.
And, uh, a few years later sheannounced in the register of members'
interest, she'd received 107,000pounds, uh, for a speaking event with

(36:28):
the Saudi Arabian government, theWorld Travel and Tourism Council.
David Cameron, you may remember, wentcamping with MBS in the desert when he
was working with Lex Greensville trying to

Helen (36:38):
shove his,
um,
I remember that lovely photo of them in

Andy (36:40):
Europe.
Exactly.
So it does feel like when youbecome Prime Minister, you get, you
know, usher into Downing Street.
You get given the letter to writeto the nuclear submarine commanders,
and then you get told, here's whywe're gonna be nice to Saudi Arabia.
And it's financial, it's weaponsales there and investment here.

Adam (36:56):
And to be fair, it has been absolutely transactional, hasn't it?
I mean, ever since Tony Blair canceledthe investigation into the Al Yama
ma, um, arms deal, which is somethingPaul Foot wrote for us about loads
in the eighties and just said, no, wejust need to do business with them.
So, um, we are, we are not gonna do this.
I mean there was at least no

Andy (37:10):
pretense
about
that.

Helen (37:11):
That

Adam (37:12):
But that was before they'd started dismembering journalists with Boulogne
sores.
is it is a red line
for me.

Helen (37:16):
Yes.
It's a red, no, it's ared line for me as well.
I, I can see the point that if you'rea British Prime Minister, you're going
to have to deal with Saudi Arabia.
They exist, they are a geopolitical fact.
They are going to be a key partnerin any kind of peace in the Middle
East between Israel and Gaza.
They have essentially become the onlycountry that has buy-in from both Russia
and America to be able to host Ukraine.
Peace Talks Right.
In the way that Britain wouldlike to, but Russia knows that

(37:38):
we are really not on their side.
Yeah.
Um, so, you know, all of that stuffis just a kind of geopolitical fact.
The stuff I find more difficultis the kind of journalists and
influencers going over there.
And then, 'cause the point about thatis, is that you then, after that slightly
lose ability to criticize them, not leastbecause it is indeed illegal in Saudi

Andy (37:57):
Arabia
to do so.
Yes, and this is where I think I, Ithink this is like a big part of the
MBS strategy is to make it seem likeSaudi Arabia is not a petro state.
They get about 30% of their income from

Helen (38:08):
oil.
They're
definitely
a
petris date.
How much do they get from their

Andy (38:10):
Sandy,

Helen (38:11):
Having them put in the pavement?

Andy (38:13):
it's all golf, no gully there.
And they actually, they areinvesting big in Chinese green tech.
Hmm.
That is a thing they're doing.
And that, that's, um, youknow, I'm sure that's something
also they want to shout about.
They're very keen to be known.
That's, that, that'sknown about in the west.
They, the, the idea is thatthey want to be a middle power.
So between the USA and China andsomewhere where like the UE you
know, a lot of deals take place.
so there is this chatabout greening the economy.

(38:35):
We'll see how real that is.
but as you say, the mediastuff is really interesting.
So they bought a big stake inthe independent and the standard.
and Lev is great, greatpals with, um, MBS.
Mm-hmm.
They visit,

Adam (38:46):
They spend a

Andy (38:46):
time Yes.
He and Leow had him to dinner atHampton Court when, uh, when he

Helen (38:51):
came

Adam (38:51):
over
in 18 at stud,
House.
Stud House, Hampton Court.
Yeah.
He doesn't actually end the
whole of
Hampton
Court, it's just

Helen (38:57):
stud
house.
Do you think he makes him doall the kind of longevity stuff?
Do you think they're theredoing the sort of penile plasmas
graphs and the hyperbaric

Andy (39:03):
chambers
and
all that sort
together?
Well, Lebanon Leviev did join the Board of
Evolution,
which
is
a yes.
A, a rather Crank longevity
organization.
Which, which MBS headed.
Yeah.

Adam (39:14):
Yes.
Not

Andy (39:15):
Evolution Immortality Rom.

Helen (39:16):
Poor Rob.

Andy (39:17):
Um, and this is all via the PIF, the Public Investment Fund, which is, about
half a trillion dollars of oil money.
It's big.
They started it in the seventiesand um, turns out we've, we've
needed a lot of oil since then.
So that's been spent on thingslike Newcastle United, 2034 World
Cup, the Liv Golf Tournament.

(39:37):
I know you two are both keen, keen Golf

Helen (39:39):
fans
and
they've,
but you know what, I knowso little about that, that I
thought this is how posh I am.
I thought that was the

Andy (39:43):
54
golf
tournament.
Oh

Helen (39:45):
Oh,

Andy (39:45):
god.
but there are things like Vice wherethe Saudis bought a chunk of vice
and as a result it really pulledback its criticism of the regime.
There's a lot of reportingthat they would've done.
One editor at least resignedin protest over that.
So that's the interesting thing.
They bought shares in Disney and Facebook.
About 1% of each of thosetwo is owned by Saudi Arabia.
So,

Adam (40:05):
and it's not just about, um, media ownership either because
there's an awful lot of Spun con.
I mean, we've done end endless piecesin street about various papers,
particularly the Financial Times is quitekeen on whilst being editorially quite
critical of the Saudi regime at times.
Awful lot of stuff from sort ofvisit Saudi and is it Nessun?
That Nessun,
Nessun,
that's the, the

Andy (40:23):
noise of the, it's the
noise of the future Nessun,

Helen (40:27):
Which as far as I can see, looks like a sort of military
base and you have to eat all yourmeals in a kind of group canteen.
I just, it's something that youlook like you would sentence
influencers to do if I was in powerrather than something you actively

Adam (40:38):
it's not the Marriott, the Boris Carry and the kids ran to, is it?
No, no,

Helen (40:42):
no.

Andy (40:43):
so as these meetings are happening, it's just, it's very interesting to
think this is a space that Britain,as you say, hea might have occupied in
the
past

Helen (40:49):
oh, you, I thought you meant like physically like our
colonial power, but you Yes.
You mean the, the sort of imaginary spaceof the bridge between America and other

Andy (40:56):
powers.

Helen (40:57):
Yeah,
yeah,
exactly.

Adam (40:58):
But it's not just that you're not allowed to make any
criticism of brs either, is it?
It's that if you go over there forone of these jollies and a pain,
however much you do seem to also haveto make the obligatory gushing quote.
Have you

Helen (41:07):
got those there?
it's

Adam (41:08):
the,
well,

Andy (41:09):
well, it's very much like appearing on Meghan Markle show.
Mm. You just, you have to turn up, youhave to try the stuff, the canapes and
you say, my goodness, did you make this?
That

Helen (41:17):
is

Andy (41:18):
amazing.

Helen (41:19):
So you're watching
a
lot of you have watching too much
with love, Meghan

Adam (41:23):
clue into Andy's life here.

Andy (41:26):
Yeah.
You have to say this lady birdCrostini is fantastic to MBS.
Yeah, you do.
And Boris has been doing that, andI think some leaders clearly are,
are, are even more enthusiastic

Adam (41:34):
Boris has been doing that.
Piers Morgan was over there, wasn't

Andy (41:36):
he, for a jolly recently
was

Adam (41:37):
and, uh, Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Who having been extremely outspoken aboutJamal Khashoggi when he was in his days
back on Good Morning Britain, when thathappened, Uh, this is what he said at the,
um, when he was interviewing then businesssecretary quasi Quaye on March, 2021,
uh, about, uh, crown Prince Mohammed.
Bill s Salman, are you going to applysanctions and stand up in a moral
and ethical way against this CrownPrince, who, according to the United

(41:59):
States government, is a man who murdersjournalists where is our moral compass?
He literally sent a team of executionersto lead this journalist into a room
where they sought him to pieces.
Do you not feel uncomfortableabout doing business with him?
This is Piers Morgan in, uh, Januarythis year when he appeared as a guest
at the Saudi Real Estate Future Forum
in

Helen (42:16):
Riyadh.

Adam (42:17):
I have never seen a personality like that of his Royal
Highness Crown Prince Mohammad
bin Salman.
I have witnessed gender equalityin the kingdom, and I'm very proud
of the developments the Kingdomis experiencing, supporting and
empowering all its citizens.
Saudi Arabia has achieved remarkablesuccess in sports with national
team players demonstratinga high level of skill and
competence.
This transformation happening inthe Kingdom is truly inspiring,

(42:40):
both intellectually and emotionallydriven by a visionary approach
that sets a global benchmark.
I mean, Meghan Markle at this pointwould be kind of like being slightly

Andy (42:48):
yeah.
That's alright.
Yeah.

Adam (42:49):
she?
How much

Andy (42:49):
stop there.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Helen (42:50):
how much money would they have to give you to, to put that out?
much as I want to live in a really bighouse, I just think I just, I'd be like,

Andy (42:57):
you

Helen (42:57):
what I mean?
Even if it, if I, that could be aboutmy own mother and I wouldn't wanna say
something that nice about, I'm critically

Adam (43:02):
I think I'd have the GETT Act clause.
'cause they said, do you wanna comeover for X amount of, uh, of money?
To, to I just say, can
I bring
my
husband?
Is that all right?

Helen (43:10):
He and, uh, Tucker Carson

Andy (43:11):
interviewed each other.

Helen (43:12):
Which is, yeah, it's a sort of bizarre stage set of
the two of them in front of a

Andy (43:16):
kind of
windswept
dune.
had they both been briefed that theywere going to be the one being asked the

Helen (43:20):
questions I fear, although I only watched about 10 minutes before my
eyeballs started
liquefying.
But um, they sort of did akind of tag team thing where
one of them did one of in.
Yeah.
And they both put it out in their own

Andy (43:29):
platforms
as
it
were.
Oh.
I don't feel entirely
well
hearing
about that.
But

Adam (43:34):
imagine having to go to the
desert
to see, I mean, there'snot enough money in the

Andy (43:37):
world.

Helen (43:37):
Wow.
Tucker Carl often wears socklessloafers as well, which I imagine in the

Andy (43:40):
desert would very
unpleasant.
Mm.
You never saw LawrenceArabia in sous LOAs, did

Adam (43:45):
you?
That's true.

Andy (43:46):
Okay.
That's it for this episode of page 94.
Thank you so much for listening.
And, uh, we'll be back again ona fortnight with another one.
But until then, there's a permanent

Helen (43:55):
podcast
available
in

Andy (43:56):
in written
form.
It's on Newstands,
it's

Adam (43:59):
permanent.
Podcast is such a nightmare
concept.
I mean, Joe Rogans enough, surely.

Andy (44:05):
It's uh, it's on Newstands, it's at private.
Hi i.co uk and it's calledPriva Eye Magazine, in case
you didn't know that already.
It's terrific.
Go and get it.
Thanks for listening.
Thanks to Matt Hill, ArethaCordio for producing.
We'll

Adam (44:18):
see you next time.

Andy (44:19):
Bye
for now,