138: Beg, Borrow and Steel

The truth behind the British Steel debacle as revealed by guest Richard Brooks; plus the new phenomenon of 'Yank Avoidance' and a roadmap through the confusing landscape of BBC podcasting. 

Episode Transcript

Maisie (00:00):
Page 94, the Private Eye Podcast

Andy (00:03):
Hello, and welcome to another episode of Page 94.
My name's Andrew Hunter Murray, and I'mhere in the Private Eye offices with Helen
Lewis, Adam MacQueen and Richard Brooks.
We are here to discuss, the news.
Let's get into it.
I thought I'd, I'm experimentingwith a shorter introduction.

Helen (00:18):
Okay, good.
What do you Okay, good.
We're all just a bit abrupt.
We're all having quiet, lovelylittle sleep and then, oh, hello.

Andy (00:23):
Yes.
we are gonna be talking about, alittle bit of media stuff later on.
We're gonna be talking aboutsomething American later on.
But as Richard is here and as a specialguest, we thought we'd start off by
asking you Richard, about British Steel.

Adam (00:34):
You are our Man of Steel.

Richard (00:35):
Uhhuh.

Andy (00:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So this is about British Steel, which isthe last big steel works in the UK making
what's called virgin steel, which is.
Box fresh, brand new steel, whichis a very strong and useful variety
for pretty much anything you oughtto make if you wanna make a ship or
a skyscraper or a washing machine.
Steel is really the thing to do it from.

(00:58):
And, British Steel has been owned by aChinese firm for the last six odd years
was on the absolute brink of going bustuntil the government stepped in, a week
or two ago now snapped it up becauseif they hadn't done stopped completely

Richard (01:14):
-they haven't quite snapped it up yet.
Okay.
they've told it to snap to attention.
they've enacted some legislationwhere they can essentially tell.
British steel what to do.
Okay.
so they're going and say, you mustkeep running your blast furnaces and
all the rest of it, and you must buysome, all the ingredients you need.

Andy (01:35):
it still owned Technically by Jingye, the-

Richard (01:38):
But it's still technically owned by the Chinese

Andy (01:40):
Oh, so it's a bit in that sense, like The Daily Telegraph in that
it's owned by an overseas power, but

Helen (01:47):
switch it off for five minutes, it will stop and you
won't be able to get it going

Andy (01:50):
It is core national infrastructure.
We cannot survive without it.
, Richard: So at the moment British Steel is in special
measures, very special measures.
And it's just having to do whatthe government tells it to keep
it going at a cost of about threequarters of a million pounds a day
so two, 300 million pounds a year,
So the situation we've got wasn't sustainable, but it

(02:13):
hasn't been sustainable for years.
Is that right, Richard?
Because the last time British Steelwent bust was in 2019, and that's the
point at which the last government,the Conservative government allowed
the Chinese firm Jingye to stepin and buy it on the assumption
that they would keep it going.
But the industry as a whole has been on adownward slope pretty since the 1970s, or,

Richard (02:36):
yeah, possibly since the 19th century.
It's, it's economically itstruggled and privatized in it.
1988. And since then, a whole seriesof companies have struggled to make
money from it had to be bailed out.
it became Chorus then, Tatar Steel,the Indian company bought it.

(02:57):
then they sold the Skort bit to, anotherprivate investment firm called Gray
Ball, which didn't invest So they went,bust then had to be bailed out and
was sold to Jingye in 20 19, 20 20.
as what Alok Sharma, who was the BusinessMinister at the time, called "a big

(03:17):
vote of confidence in the industry."
Yeah.
So we keep getting these votesof confidence every few years.
And then, the thing goes down the

Andy (03:25):
Yeah.
There are great quotes from BorisJohnson at the time saying, oh, this
is yeah, idea, this is steel secured.
So why is it so difficult forBritain to money out of making
steel or to keep doing it

Richard (03:35):
it's an expensive business because at the moment,
really because of energy costs.
and because we don't have the, coal toproduce the coke that needs to go into
the blast furnace, we have to import that.
and the iron ore.
So we're, reliant on buying everythingin paying huge electricity costs.
And that adds up to losing money.

(03:57):
You've then got other challengescoming in from China, for example,
dumping steel on the market.
That caused a bit of a stir,before we decided to just sell them
skunthorpe, as some sort of reward.
there are issues.
It's steel always.
Seems to be at the heart ofinternational trade tensions and wars.

(04:19):
So as well as the Chinese dumping,you've got tariffs imposed on it.
So we've now got, 25% tariffson anything that we do manage
to make and export to America.
so it's always up against it.
It's always in, in the,middle of a political scrap.
And it's got huge costs.
So all in all it's Oh yeah,

Andy (04:41):
pun.
Yep.
Sorry.
Carry on.

Richard (04:43):
so all in all that, that adds up to a business you wouldn't really
wanna run You need some support.

Andy (04:48):
And the, all of these companies that have run it over the, from Gray Ball to,
and before that, Tata, they just, none ofthem have had a long term vision of what
the future of British Steel might be orhow it could be made to work successfully.

Richard (05:01):
they, I think they have a vision.
They're just unrealistic ones.
Gray Ball came along and said,we, this was in 2016 and said,
we'll invest, 400 million quid.
They didn't invest anything like that.
The government believed them.
Sajid Javid was the BusinessSecretary at the time.
He believed them, even though they hada record of, investing in companies

(05:22):
and then just watching 'em go bust,like companies like Monarch Airlines,
you remember that, that name familiar.
Anyway, that went downthe tubes on their watch.
But we still just hand over this criticalindustry, To companies like that, to,
to private investment firms that areonly interested in extracting money from
them in the short term or to, companiesfrom China, which are effectively

(05:46):
state controlled, even if they're

Andy (05:48):
their own.
Yeah.
Yeah.
China makes about what, 40% ofthe world steel, a huge chunk
of Yeah, Something like that.
Chinese made.
So naturally they've got their owninterest in their own country rather.
especially caring aboutwhether British Steel thrives.
Yeah.

Richard (06:01):
then we, as we wrote in the current issue, then we hand over thinking
about this really difficult problem tothe management consultants and not just
any old management consultants, McKinsey,who screwed up all kinds of British
institutions, and do a lot of work forthe Chinese and worked for specifically

(06:24):
Jingye, when it bought out British Steel.
and we say, okay guys, also just tellus what to do with our steel industry,

Andy (06:33):
Right?

Richard (06:34):
and we end up with a mess.
And we are surprised.

Andy (06:36):
Why, were they involved in the decision making?
Sorry to ask a really basic question.
Why were McKinsey involved in it?
Why do we ask them to do it?

Richard (06:42):
you've not bought into the way policy is made?
Have

Andy (06:45):
No, I love the way policy
is made, but I just wonder with
the really important things,management consultancy
the

Adam (06:51):
thing I've really noticed over the last 20 years working at Private
Eye is that every swen new governmentscome in and say, oh, we're gonna get
rid of the management consultants.
We're not gonna be relying onthe management consultants.
And yet they, it always the samemanagement consultants, as you say, as

Helen (07:02):
As well, isn't

Richard (07:02):
it?
Yeah, always.
Yeah.
So in, in the case of steel, McKinsey havebeen given these sort of rolling contracts
over about four or five years to adviseon the future of British Steel, as that
future sort of diminishes and diminishes.
and then, a few months into thenew government, they were given
another contract by this government.

(07:23):
On, the future of British

Adam (07:25):
already done that announcement about
fewer management consultants.
Suddenly, I remember Rachel Reeves

Richard (07:28):
that one yes.
Soon after the latest announcementthat we're gonna stop using
management consultants.

Helen (07:34):
It's outsourcing, isn't it?
I remember, John Ledge when it workedat the New Statesman from saying to
me that the reason the government'slike outsourcing, it looks like
it's about saving money, but it'sactually about making someone else
responsible for it when it goeswrong, which I thought was fairly
cynical, but I also feel that probablylife since then has vindicated it.
But you do see that, like inthis case it's, about outsourcing
the thinking to somebody else.

(07:55):
not that we're gonna talk about theSupreme Court judgment, the speak,
but that, I think that was an examplewhere government outsourced its policy
to charities, for example, and letthem set what they thought their
interpretation of Equality's law was.
and I think there's a sort of weirdparallel thing going on here, which is
that ministers never wanted to be theones to close an iconic steelworks.
They never want to be the ones tonationalize, iconic steelworks.
So they wanted somebody else to do things.

Adam (08:17):
It's
outsourcing blame as
much as

Richard (08:20):
but also, but the, problem is that there are so many factors coming
into the decision or so many factorsthat should determine what you do with
the steel industry that go beyond justwhat the business department needs to
look at or what the, even the steelindustry narrowly wants to look at.
There are all kinds of, wider economicconsiderations, even political and
geopolitical considerations abouthaving a steel industry that you

(08:43):
can't expect a management consultantwho's, pouring through their
spreadsheets, take into account.
So you end up with very narrow decisions,which say, oh, okay, we'll trust this
Chinese company, and no one says, areare you sure you can't really do that?

Adam (08:57):
Presumably a lot of those geopolitical factors have changed a lot
in the last few weeks even, haven't they?
Because suddenly we,need to go full Bismarck.
We need to get back into the, steel, thesort of gunship and, weapons and tanks.
building business.

Helen (09:10):
Yeah.
Somewhere.
Dominic Cummings is crying.
He loves the idea of going full Bismarck.
That's like his favoritething in the world.

Richard (09:16):
That always could have happened.
I know that these, developmentswith Trump and all the rest of it
are a bit unusual, but it alwayscould happen that we were exposed,
particularly in an area like steel.
So you always had to guard againstsuddenly having an industry that
was, really in trouble and, havingto have some source of, your own

(09:36):
steel making That was foreseeable.
And in fact, I think we, we didforesee it when the Chinese took over.
We said, is this really a good idea?
Trusting this criticalindustry to the Chinese?

Andy (09:48):
there is something about the steel industry, which just really
reminded me of, the mortgage situation.
So when, this trust came in, bleweverything up, went out again, everyone's
mortgages went through the roof.
Lots of people's financial situationswere dependent on mortgage rates or
interest rates remaining around 1%.
And when they got up to 4%,suddenly you're in a world of pain.
So the British steel industry,even though it was on a downward

(10:09):
slope, was slightly dependent on.
gas remaining plentiful and cheap becausethis country imports loads of its gas.
And then suddenly when the price goesup, you see this amazing, like these
foothills rise into this amazingmountain range and the gas price chart.
Oh, then you are absolutely screwed.
And it's now substantially higherthan it has been for, that period.
Accepted it for some time.
Yeah.

(10:29):
And what does Britain make a lot of?
Its electricity from, gas.
and British Steel have said the maindriver of the price disparity in how
much it costs to make steel is wholesaleelectricity costs driven by the UK's
reliance on natural gas power generation.
and the whole thing has of coursebeen dragged into the net zero
culture war with Nigel Ferrissaying, I'll nationalize this.
And the, answer is toscrap net zero, which.

(10:51):
Will actually increaseour reliance on gas.
So it's

Richard (10:54):
not-

Helen (10:55):
what if they replace the kiln with a really big heat pump, Andy?

Andy (10:58):
Oh, dreamy heat pumps don't get that hot, I'm afraid.
Electric car furnaces do, butI don't think we've got time or
inclination to go fully into them.
But it is

Adam (11:05):
we've also ended up in this really odd space, haven't we?
Where we've talked about nationalization.
The only person at the moment seems,to be where, hey, let's nationalize
is Nigel Farage, not, traditionallya left wing politician, although in
increasingly so on some of his utterances.
And it is an odd thing, isn't it?
'cause Labour seem to be runningabsolutely terrified of the
idea of nationalization in anyindustry and be it water or rail

Andy (11:26):
they're doing trains by

Adam (11:27):
they?
are doing the trains.
They're quietly doing thetrains now, aren't they?
But that's, I remember back at the 2015election, so Ed Milliband standing,
polls were returning huge support forthe nationalization of the railways.
It's not something thatthe public are scared of.
And yet politicians seemabsolutely terrified of it.
Presumably some of that is, is economicworries, but also there does seem
to be a sort of ideological No, weare not, like old Labour feel to it,

Richard (11:49):
Yeah, I think they're testing the waters there.
They've, they said, that it is an option.
And I think they're lookingto see what reaction is.
But it, I hate to agree with Nigel,but it is the sensible thing to do.
this thing is a bit out of controland you do need to take back control.

Andy (12:05):
God

Richard (12:05):
Sorry.

Andy (12:07):
never had you down as one of those people, Richard.

Helen (12:09):
no, but you are right.
There aren't, there are a couple ofways in which we've discovered that
things that we try to introduce amarket to that, which is hugely dynamic
and benefited lots of industries,but in some of them it doesn't work.
And if we need, as you say, fornational security reasons or whatever
it might be, our own supply ofsteel, then by, relying on the market
might not be the right way to do it.
It's ditter the utilities as should, I
think

(12:29):
what you

Adam (12:29):
yes.
In the case of hydration andgetting cholera, for instance,
so the water industry, it's

Richard (12:36):
not about nationalizing the whole industry either.
It's about this part
of it.
so that you have a rump of theindustry that is publicly owned.
in a crisis you do still have.
Something there.

Andy (12:50):
but we still import the ingredients for it.
I just, isn't it a slight redherring to say, oh, we'll be
independent as long as we,

Helen (12:57):
and do you wanna bring back coal
mines?
Isn't
doesn't

Adam (12:59):
that
is where the net zero comesinto it because they, it
was turned down, wasn't it?
The coal mine was it?
up in Durham that was gonnabe specifically for producing
coke
for

Helen (13:05):
Cumbia

Andy (13:06):
no, 'cause sorry, that, the coal that annoyingly, the coal that,
that mine produces doesn't reallywork properly for the furnace.
It's not the right quality.
So the coal, would not have, yeah.
Yeah.
So there are a lot ofvery easy solutions being
Punted.
Basically we just need more coal.
We just need to get theNorth Sea going again.
And none of it is especially, howcan I put it, aligned with reality.

Richard (13:26):
But do import the things we need, like the coke and coal and the
iron ore from relatively friendly
countries.
Australia or

Andy (13:34):
Australia, anytime
soon

Richard (13:36):
it's seems
slow.
That will be going some,

Andy (13:38):
Yes.
But the other thi sort of new methodthat Tata Steel has shifted over
to the electric arc furnace solved.
Not the whole problem, but part of itbecause it's a way of making steel from,
re recycled from scrap steel basically.
So pouring scrap steel,add a lot of electricity.
lots of electricity and you can,generate new steel, which is useful

(14:00):
'cause Britain exports more scrapthan almost any other country in the
world

Helen (14:03):
Yeah.
'cause we can't use
it.

Andy (14:05):
we don't have the enough electric arc furnaces basically.
Yeah.
and globally, I think about 40 to50% of new steel making capacity
plant is electric arc furnaces.
And that figure has steadily been rising.
So for a lot of steel uses,that will be an answer.
But that needs investment.
it will, it will, it needs

Richard (14:22):
a lot of investment.
And at the moment it's not really capableof producing the top grades of steel
that you need for some of the defense

Andy (14:30):
use.
Yeah.
Do
you have to protect that in itskind of uneconomic sphere and

Richard (14:34):
well, that this is why you need a proper strategy, not decided by some
management consultants because you needto look at what this new technology or
relatively new technology can produce orwill be able to because it's improving.
And there are a lot of people whothink that before long in a few
years, it will be able to bridgeproduce the, highest grade steel.

(14:56):
So you've gotta move towards that.
But in the meantime, if you want yourown steel industry, you've gotta keep
the other steel production going.
and that means, and you've
gotta
pay for that.
all
that has to be managedand, that's what's been
mismanaged
for years.

Andy (15:12):
I think that's a, I think that's a great note.

Helen (15:13):
I'm more well informed

Richard (15:15):
That was
a
blast.

Helen (15:17):
Hey.

Andy (15:21):
Now, Richard has disappeared in a puff of smoke to go and torment
another management consultant.
But we're left with Adam and Helenand we're going to be talking about
a new phrase that Helen coined Ithink this morning in the eye office.
Do you wanna debut,
Helen?

Helen (15:34):
I'm wondering if people think this is now a racial slur in our new
sensitive age, but I was thinkingabout the phrase Yank Avoidance.

Andy (15:40):
I think now that Trump's back in that the phrase Yank Avoidance is such
a gentle slur but think it'll barelyeven, the slur absolutely the urometer.

Helen (15:49):
Yeah.
So I was looking out to see whether ornot that all of the, you know, absolutely
lurid headlines, which I have to sayare on top of stories that turn out when
you expect them to also be lurid andtrue about, deportations, about hassle
at the board and things like that.
Were actually affecting Europeansdesire to go to America.
Now we know already the Canadians havetaken their ball and taken it a boot.

(16:11):
I dunno,
that doesn't really work.
Subs, please check.
But, the already Canadian boardingcrossings were down, Mark Carney's
been running a very patriotic campaignfor the Canadian election basically
on the kind of all stand up to Trump.
So there's a kind of greatpatriotic swelling of we won't
be the 51st state sold off innormally mild manner to Canada.
But the similar thing has been happeningwith European, Traveled to America.

(16:32):
So Axios reported that, flights toAmerica are down 20% year on year in March
to the 10 biggest airports in the us.
And if you look actually that head forpoints, one of the many sites that since I
became obsessed with Avios, I spent a lotof time on, reported that actually you can
get really quite good deals on transectingflights because they're not filling
them in the same way that they were.

(16:53):
So I had been wondering about whetheror not this was just a kind of thing
that everybody was saying and a kindof, oh, everybody hates Donald Trump.
But it does actually seem that thenumber of reports there have been.
So there's, two issues.
There's the one people within America,they're on green cards, they're on student
visas, whatever might happen, or peoplewho are there illegally getting deported.
But there's another separate issue ofpeople who have citizenship in nominally

(17:15):
friendly countries, getting a terrificamount of hassle at the border and
ending up in detention for a while.
Some of these people are slightly cominginto work while on a tourist visa.
Some of them aren't, have slightlyread flaky things in their travel
history, like they're only booked fora hotel for the first night, or they
don't have a return flight out again.
Which are the kind of thingsthat, that trigger stuff.

(17:36):
But it does seem to me that Amer,America has given the world the
rest of the, the rest of the world.
The message basically, don'texpect us to be nice to you if you

Andy (17:45):
up right, I'm not gonna have that
And America border forces diduntil recently have a reputation
for being the sweetest, friend.
Lovely in the world

Helen (17:54):
Lovely bunch of ads.
I dunno.
I remember.
Have you ever been tosomewhere that's a kind of like
slightly more hostile country?
I just think this is a really interestingthing 'cause having a British passport
obviously is an absolute golden ticket.
Most people, countriesare absolutely delighted
to see you.
And even the countries that arein a not, maybe you have to buy
a 50 pound visa on arrival likesomewhere like Nepal or Uganda.
That's, they just want a bit, they wantmore US dollars in the country basically.

(18:17):
And I remember the first time reallythinking about this was going to Russia
in 2016, where you know, they checkyour passports for, you get on the
plane, you know you have to have thevisa you apply to in the consulate.
You get there and someone said,your hair's different to the way
it is in your passport photo.
And I thought, how, can I explainthe concept of hair growing to this
boot faced Russian official withoutsounding intensely sarcastic and

(18:38):
ending up in the black Ivanka.
But I think something similar hashappened in the way that people
feel that America treats them.
You get taken over secondary screening.
And the reports that we've had have beenof people who said, they just said things
are different now, like Trump's in charge.
people still really seeming to slightlyrevel in their power and it only needs
a couple of, people who are bad applingin that way for lots and lots of people

(19:01):
in Europe to get the message that theydon't really want to go to America right

Andy (19:04):
and you traveled back and forth to and from America a fair bit for your work.
Yeah.
Have you noticed thedeparture lounge is empty?
are the queues substantiallyshorter the nice nibbles?
for the buffet.
Yeah.
I,

Helen (19:15):
God knows how I've suffered from my journalistic car.
I've only been once since Trump wasin actually, and while I was in the
air, I wrote about it in this week'scolumn, I, everyone started sending me
the story about that French scientistwho got, he got detained at the board,
so I shouldn't laugh, but it's such astrange thing you got to pay for, which
was having on his phone messages, whichwere something like hateful about Trump.
And that was the point whereI really thought, I hope

(19:37):
they haven't read, any things
I've published under myown name on the internet.
so I have, if anyone's listening andthey're thinking of going to America, I
would have a couple of recommendations.
Same as if you're going to anywhereyou're slightly worried about.
One is take a phone, like a pay as yougo phone or take an old phone that only
works on wifi so you don't have access toall of your emails or your social media,

(19:57):
all that kind of stuff on if you're anAmerican citizen, you can, say that the
border aren't allowed to search your phoneand unlock it if you're not a US citizen.
I'm afraid they can, if you even wannaslightly get into the country, you have
to let them have access to your phone.
They will go through thingslike even your deleted photos.
Now, someone got done for this, herdeleted photos contained photos of her at
the Hezbollah Leader's funeral, which Ihave to say I wouldn't strongly recommend

(20:22):
doing if you want to go to America.
And I just think if, there are peoplewho are worried about going to America,
just like basic security practicesplus anything you can do that says,
I'm not dodgy, I would strongly cancel
doing.
You look
worried,
Andy, are you I'm not
even planning a
trip.
I
was gonna say it's your world tour.
Your World book
tour
gonna
take you
to

Andy (20:42):
no

Adam (20:43):
I remember years and years ago, 'cause I'm very old, but when I first went
to America, it was in New York in 1998and prior, a few years prior to that, I'd
gone into railing around Eastern Europe.
So I had lots and lots of veryofficious looking stamps all over
my passport, all in relic alphabet.
and that was, they, they, gave thatquite a going over at that point.
I'm sure, a couple years afterthat, after nine 11, they

(21:04):
wouldn't be bothered about at all.
They would, they'd been looking outfor passes to, Pakistan and Afghanistan
and, Saudi Arabia and things.
But, you always got asked ifyou were or had been a member
of
the
Communist
Party, didn't you?
Which it

Helen (21:14):
was.
yeah.
You had to take a form that saidyou hadn't been involved in the
Nazi genocide of 1930, 30 to 45,

Andy (21:19):
And the people who've been coming in for this so far have not been US citizens
themselves, but they have been people veryclose to American citizens, haven't they?
Or they have?
They have certainly been some people whohave been there legally, for example.

Helen (21:30):
So Ma Mahmud kil, who was a green cardholder, married
to an American citizen, right?
Who actually his wife had ababy this week and he wasn't
allowed to be there at the birth.
'cause he's still being held in Louisiana.
He was held for being apro-Palestine activist.
so he's, if you have a green cardholder, you have the right to live
and work in the us It's the, on the,on, on the steps to citizenship.

(21:52):
He's been held one of the notorious casesthat someone deported was somebody who was
El Salvadorian, had an order from a judgeordering them not to be specifically not
to be deported, saying that they would
be
at risk.
So there are like, there are gradationsof, worry and I, I know from people
who've had, who have non Britishpassports that it is a much more
hasley experience

Adam (22:12):
and it's been done in an entirely performative
cruelty way as well, isn't it?
it's not just a case of, oh,sorry, that was a mistake.
They're literally going,that's, he, was a gang member.
He screwed, he's
gotta
stay
there.

Helen (22:22):
I think this is what worries people is obviously now
that there's this tension here.
Every single person who has any kindof, has experience at the American
border, we gonna hear about it.
But equally well, this is why Igo back to my Russia experience.
Russia to deport me would not have madethe slightest bit of difference to them.
They don't need my money in the waythat, Nepal was very glad to have it.
They don't need diplomaticrelations with us in the same way
that, France or Germany would be.

(22:44):
And the US is now in that positionwhere if they put off some people
coming over by doing things thatare ostentatiously cruel, that's
kind of part of their shtick now.

Andy (22:53):
is this intentional or is it a side effect?

Helen (22:55):
I think it's more if you give people power, they might end up using it.
You see what I mean?
Like the, incentives are all thereto be more aggressive on the border.
That's, what the dicta iscoming down from on high about.
and the Trump administrationlikes these stories.
As I wrote in the column, immigration isabout the issue that Trump is polling on

(23:15):
the
most, actually the deportation program,which I think is disgustingly cruel
in an overt way, is actually has morefavorables than the unfavorables.
That might change as peoplehear more details about it.
But polarization in the US is such thatas soon as Donald Trump starts doing
it, a load of people really like it.
And then the reverse happens, whichis lots of Democrats who thought

(23:36):
globalization and free trade were badand right wing things have now suddenly
become much more in favor of them.
And there is this is oneof the things that I think.
I, it's said so often about US politicsthat it almost becomes a truism, but
genuinely it is so polarized to theextent that half the country has,
takes its views on something almoststraight down the line and the other
half takes it straight down the line.

(23:57):
On the other side, there isn'ta lot of room for people to have
opinions that are outta line withtheir, tribe, whether that's the
red
or
the
blue
one.

Andy (24:05):
And it's a very different tone to that taken by, most European
countries, except some on the Europeanborders, which do like to show off,

Helen (24:15):
Yeah, Victor Orban being a very exactly, I think he's, he is,
he's the European, pattern makerfor most of what Trump is doing.
And he has said, I want, new Hungarians.
I don't want immigrants.
the reality is that every politicianin the modern world is gonna have
to deal with the fact that peopleare on the move and that is very
destabilizing to their original citizens.

(24:35):
Border crossings have dramaticallyfallen under Trump, which most
Americans heartly approve of.
But I think the thing that is the casethat I think is worth making is there
is a difference between having even aquite a tight immigration policy and the
kind of casual disrespect for the law,the courts, the constitution, the almost
trollish ness of that, and the revelingin the kind of punishment aspect of it.

(25:00):
So one of the things that's happenedis they've tried to deport this
guy who they say is a member of MS13, , which is a gang, and Trump
tweeted a photo of this guy's knuckletattoos with MS 13 written over this.
So he's got like a cross andthen one of them's a dub.
And he said, the cross meansone, 'cause there's one God.
And there's, and he, there was no mentionthat this photo, he had photoshopped on
the MS 14 or presumably some underlingwho understands how to work Photoshop.

(25:23):
But that they have made theentirely, as far as I can see, a
fabricated case against this guy.
And they're now really very doilymanipulated, photographic evidence to say,
this guy's got gang affiliated tattoos,
and, this is someone who is now in prison.
There's an order the Supreme Courtsays he should be brought back.
And they're just going, no, you won't,
can't
make us

Adam (25:42):
the scale to
which we've gone in four
months.
Whenever you
stop and
look back
at it,
it does just make youthink, wow, doesn't it?
that's a government fabricatingevidence and being gleefully posting
it
from
the
president
himself.

Andy (25:54):
What, so just to bring us back to Yes.
Summer holidays Yes.
For any British listeners.
What next for Ynk avoidance?

Helen (26:01):
I'd be really interested to see whether or not people
decide they're gonna go anyway.
I, it'd be, really interestingto look at the conference market

Adam (26:09):
We've
got
a World Cup coming up, which isco-hosted with Mexico and Canada,

Helen (26:11):
Oh my God,
yes.

Adam (26:13):
It just does
not
seem
possible at the moment.

Helen (26:15):
Yeah, and exactly.
and, lots of, lots of academic conferencesare having big conversations at the
moment about whether or not theyfeasibly can ask their staff to come
and do an a conference in America.
'cause if you're an internationalassociation of, physiologists or
whatever, is it really fair to yourstaff with less favorable passports
to
ask
them
to
come
to a

Adam (26:33):
It's a stage on from Jacob re Mark saying anyone who's been critical
of the government can't come and givelectures to the civil service, isn't it?
You actually genuinely,

Helen (26:39):
yeah.
people
are

Adam (26:40):
to come
into the
country
to speak
at
academic

Andy (26:42):
Will this be good for America's soft power,

Helen (26:44):
do
we
think?

Andy (26:44):
Or maybe not

Helen (26:46):
Before we go, I just wanted to have one update from, the last episode when I
talked about Swift Bricks and I actuallyheard from Hannah born Taylor, who is the
campaigner behind the swift brick proposedlegislation who thought I was sagging off
swift bricks and, I had to point out that.
I was really being slightlycautious about them.
She says that she also thinks bee bricksare a bit more, they do get a bit musty

(27:07):
and filled with things that aren'tbees, but she does say swift bricks
won't ever risk blocking developmentand without them, there is no future for
birds who breed in building cavity sincewe're destroying their cavity nesting
habit without mitigating their loss.
I'd like to make a formalapology to the Swifts of Britain

Andy (27:22):
Britain.
Oh.
'cause they, because they nested,

Adam (27:23):
community,

Andy (27:24):
because they Nessun in eaves basically.
And new houses don't have eaves

Helen (27:27):
and without Eves, they just literally can't.
Can't survive.
she's been doing it all on her ownas a Soler, unfunded campaigner.
and I think that's something that I,some of the most important changes
of British law have come fromsomeone banging on for a long time
with very little support initially.
So I wouldn't, I wanted to give Hannah big

Andy (27:43):
to, that.
that's lovely news.
Yeah.
I actually had a hunky fireman come aroundand put some swift boxes on my house.
Only the other day I.

Adam (27:50):
Is that what firemen do these days?

Helen (27:52):
You absolutely sure it wasn't a stripper gram, we, you just handed him
the swift boxes and he was very confused

Andy (27:57):
took his braces off.
I just said, come on up the ladder.
Now for our final section of theshow, we're gonna try something
daring, something bold, something.
Page 94 has never done before.
We're gonna make a sectionof a podcast about podcasts.
Wow.

Helen (28:11):
If it goes badly, we can discuss it next week on a section about

Andy (28:13):
for the section about podcasts.
About podcasts.
The rest is podcast.
This is gonna be thesnake eating its own tail.
A long last as we've beenthreatening to do for years now.
before we start this, we'regonna be talking a little bit
about, the BBC for example.
We're gonna be talking aboutcommercial podcasts and independent
podcasts and all of this.
let's have some declarationsof interest right off the bat.
Before
we
go.
I make another podcast,which is on BBC sounds.

(28:36):
I also make a Radio four show, which ison BBC Sounds and releases a podcast.
That's me done Helen.
I

Helen (28:41):
I make a Radio four show, which is also on BBC Sounds, and I
have appeared on every podcast ever
made.

Andy (28:48):
Three.
Hail
Marys,
Adam,

Adam (28:49):
I know
my
place.

Andy (28:52):
I

Helen (28:52):
sure this

Adam (28:53):
been such, so much as
just
boasting.
Is
it

Helen (28:55):
you
No, it's nice.
You're like, you are monogamous.
You are,
you're
faithful
to
this

Andy (28:59):
podcast.
No

Adam (29:00):
else wants me.
Yeah,

Helen (29:01):
like the who was on this side of the aisle.

Andy (29:03):
let's come to the New Zealand of it last year, the BBC proposed that,
they might put adverts on some of thepodcasts that they make, if those podcasts
are listened to on platforms other thanthe BBC's own in-house one, which is
called
BBC
sounds.

Adam (29:17):
So there's other platforms are things like Spotify,

Andy (29:19):
Spotify, its, people
now.
Exactly.
a couple of weeks ago they saidthey had considered the idea
and they wouldn't be doing that.
That was partly due to a big backlashfrom lots of, independent or rather
commercial podcast producers, whichsaid, if the BBC Wades in and releases
podcasts, the, they'll swamp themarket and we won't make any money
anymore.

(29:39):
Yeah.
That's basically what they said.

Adam (29:40):
And
that was specifically becausewhen counted as BBC podcasts are
actually lots of very popular.
BBC radio shows such as, for instance,desert Island Discs, the Archers, which
get listening, figures in the millionsand are obviously where all of the
advertising would flock for obvious
commercial
reasons if it was
able to
great

Andy (29:55):
Radio four shows maybe, sort of Friday night satirical comedies?
No,

Helen (29:59):
Oh, the news quiz is

Adam (30:00):
No, I can't think

Andy (30:00):
of,

Adam (30:02):
of any.
There's one sort of Thursday
mornings,
but

Andy (30:04):
yeah,
Yeah, dead ringers.
Dead ringers is really, good.
Anyway, they've saidthey're not going to do
it,
but
naturally the BBC does makelots of podcasts because
they make lots of shows to me
this
seems
natural.

Adam (30:13):
there is this odd thing.
Can I give you just a briefhistory of basically of BBC
sounds, I think is, the way
to
go
in with
this.
BBC sounds was
launched
by James Pernille, remember him ex Labourcabinet minister, who then went off
to the BBC and was all in the runningfor the top job until he wasn't in the
way that you are at the BBC and hasnow disappeared outta the, outta the
equation, but not before launching BBCsounds, which was the very controversial

(30:34):
at the time, replacement for the BBC
radio
iPlayer.
And the specific and explicit reason forthis was to try and get more young people
listening to what was rebranded as BBC
audio.
So it was done as a way of coming,Hey, if we make these prescribable
and digital, then people won't noticethey're actually radio programs.
'cause young people don't listen to radio.
So there was a lot of, as we said,things like the Arches and Desert Island

(30:55):
disc and stuff moved over to becomedownloadable and prescribable to and
effectively compete in that marketagainst lots and lots of podcasts.
Now, the BBC also did all sorts of.
Other good stuff in the audio market.
I'm thinking specifically acouple of documentary series.
Katherine N's, a very British cult,which is about the lighthouse movement,
which
is absolutely brilliant.
Rihanna CR Oxford's World of Secrets,which was about, Abercrombie and Fitch

(31:16):
and sexual abuse that was going onin that company for many years now.
I think resulting in, in, all sortsof criminal charges over in America.
were done in conjunction, so Iknow Rihanna did a sort of panorama
on the same topic and stuff.
So they're within the b bbc,but they are standalone kind of
podcast things in their own right.
There was lots of other spinoffs as wellfrom brands like Newscast in America
and
all these
kinds of things.

(31:36):
As it's gone on, it's developed into anodd sort of hodgepodge of all sorts of
things that are a lot less obviously BBC.
And here I'm thinking of stufflike, Lily Allen and Nikita
Oliver's Miss Me, which is,
very popular, perfectly good podcast,but slightly hard to see quite
why this is a BBC thing and, not,sitting in the, commercial market.

(31:59):
it's two celebrities gossiping
basically,

Helen (32:01):
it's the same argument that essentially played out with the BBC
website, which is and the main problemis that it's really good and people
like it and it doesn't have advertson it, which makes it a more pleasant
user experience than most newspaperwebsites See, reach, for example.
podcast Pass.
And I think there is always a feelingthat the BBC has to navigate this
line between what is an offeringthat means people support the concept

(32:23):
of the BBC versus what does thecommercial bits of the sector feel.
Is it like a level of unfaircompetition bolstered by the kind of
license fee and the centrality of the
BBC
to
British
culture?

Andy (32:33):
I find it such a weird argument that the BBC should only
serve brown rice in its canteen.
I really do.
Is this entertainment or is it not?
There are some risksthat the BBC can take.
Things like making detectoristswhere you say, this is a show
about two guys standing in a fieldgoing beep and finding a metal cap.
maybe more commercial aggressiverivals have taken a punt on that maybe.

(32:55):
But I just think this idea that the BBCshouldn't be trying to entertain people is
really
weird.

Adam (33:00):
I'm not saying they shouldn't be doing that.
I'm saying that it's one of thoseareas a bit like, local radio and,
specifically local news online,where suddenly you've got a, very
direct kind of competition going onwith, local papers who were trying
to, go di go digital as well.
So it's one of those things wherethere's, there is a constant
fight over it, a constant balance,however you feel about that.
It's also happened.
You mentioned then newspapers arepiling in, national newspapers

(33:21):
are piling into the podcast
market as
well.
the male online hasenormous number of podcasts.
most of them about women beingmurdered in horribly gruesome ways.
it seems to me they're
cornering
that

Andy (33:32):
truth.
Yeah.
stick to, what,
Yeah.

Adam (33:35):
the Telegraph has got in there as well.
very good Ukraine cast and alsoa podcast with, Alison Pearson
called
Planet
Normal.

Helen (33:43):
and the daily, the Daily Tea with, Camilla Toni and Kamala Ahmed.
I think one of the things that'shappened is, this is part of my broader
analysis of what's happened to themedia is we moved from institutions
to influencers or personalities.
And so the feeling has, been thatif you're any, if you're the BBC, if
you're a newspaper for whatever it is,you should build up personal brands

(34:04):
and they should have a podcast, whichis a bit like the book of the film.
It's like the podcast of the person, ifSo if you've got a columnist in, you're a
newspaper and they're a big deal, you willalso find them a podcast vehicle, right?
The Atlantic where I work has justgiven, David from is one of my most
popular writers, his own video podcastfor exactly that reason, because it's
like, why wouldn't you max out thisperson that people like in across

(34:26):
all media formats, which wasn't
the
way
people were really
thinking It happens to podcast as well.
Podcasters get asked to do booksthere's a book by Stephen Bartlett,
who very popular Diary of a CEOpodcast, which I think is comfortably,
maybe the worst book I've ever read.
It has the 13 rules and the 19 buckets,and it's just, it was too early to being
written by chat GPT, but honestly it was,just a brand extension bear, or as much

(34:50):
relationship to a book as I do to a horse.
The same thing.
Complaint has been happening actuallyover at Substack, the newsletter website
that was pitched as being a placefor writers to build their audience.
What's happened now, becauseit's been really popular is
like Big Beasts have moved in.
So you have somebody who's got afollowing from somewhere else, and now
they do the substack of the brand alongwith Side, the podcast of the brand

(35:12):
and the column of the brand and the TV
show
of
the

Andy (35:14):
brand.
This is what people say aboutcelebrities writing children's
books that they, muscle in.
They tack up a lot of space.
They get a lot of publicityopportunities that others wouldn't get.
I think there's a prettyfair case to be made for
all
of
that.

Helen (35:27):
fundamentally people are buying and consuming their work.
So I hope that there is a certainsort of Darwinian justice, which
if the something is bad, it
can't
go
on
forever.

Adam (35:35):
can I?
At this point?

Andy (35:37):
we'd
like to, again, you're subtweeting us.
Thanks very much.

Adam (35:41):
Can
I
at this point, bring us on tophase three of my history B
BBC sounds,
which is the other odd thing that startedto go on when the BBC were considering
putting advertising on their programswhilst on external, podcast providers.
They also started buying in lots andlots of really successful commercial
podcasts and running them on, BBC
sounds
without adverts.

(36:01):
and this was, some odd choices there.
they've got help by sex in my boss.
Excellent podcast featuring Jordan North.
Seems to come in about the same timethat Jordan North Left Radio one.
Not under the best of circumstances 'causehe was yanked off air and, there was no
announcement made about wherehe was going until it emerged.
He was going to join a commercial rival,Gary Lineker last November was brought
in to do, his incredibly successful rest.

(36:21):
His brands, they've got football, whichis specifically Gary Lineker and Alan
Sheer and Micah Richards, who are ofcourse the team from Match of the Day at
the same time that the BBC was runninginto all sorts of problems and trying
to gently maneuver as he's now admitted.
Gary Lineker out of his birth atMatch of the Day because it was
causing them all sorts of problemswith impartiality in things.
it's, in terms of joined up, BBC, it's,it seems slightly odd in that way.

(36:44):
And
also,
these are commercial onesthat are coming in one way and
they're trying to compete with
them on
another market.
Now the next phase, which is the mostrecent one, is that what, at the same time
as saying they weren't gonna run adverts.
On these external podcast providers,BBC has also quietly launched
a new podcast, a Formula Onepodcast, the inside track which

(37:05):
goes out
not on BBC sounds.
It goes on the commercial ones.
It has adverts in it bothin the UK and abroad.
And it carries BBC branding andyou have to look quite carefully to
see that the BBC branding actuallybelongs to BBC studios, which is
that mysterious commercial entity
that
is part
of
the
BBC
sort of when it's convenient to beand not when it isn't convenient to

(37:26):
be
as
in
this case.
and the feeling certainly in thecommercial podcast, sector is that
this is the BBC very much tryingto have its cake and eat it.

Andy (37:33):
the thing.
That's interesting about this isthat we are treating radio and
podcasts, like they're similar kindsof show and they're really not.
and at the very top end, very goodpodcasts and very good radio shows
probably are quite similar becausethey both take quite a lot of work
editing and production to make.
They might not sound like it becausepodcasting is traditionally a more
scrappy and conversational medium.

(37:54):
but actually you look at shows like.
In our time, which is the mostradio for of Radio four shows.
But that is like a really,long running podcast.
And that's partly because podcastsalso thrive on repeatability and
having the capacity to make lotsand lots of different episodes.
It doesn't mean they'rebetter than six passers.
It means there are different kind of show.
Yeah.
And I think it's a bit odd treatingthese things as though they're the

(38:16):
same, just because they're both audio.

Helen (38:18):
The thing that's interesting about in our time, which I love
by the way, is that there are, itis essentially like a long running
podcast in which there are only twoparticipants, and those two participants
are Melvin Bragg and an academic, right?
It's just one academic being barkedat about like the Medicis or,
theorems or whatever it might be.
And they're in the same roleevery, there's a familiarity to
it, that I think really, works.

(38:39):
But you are right, like linearradio is it still attracts pretty
whacking great big audiences though.
crucial thing about linear radio isit also helps people discover things.
You might switch on the radioat a time and hear something you
otherwise wouldn't have done.
And I think the, worry I, everyoneI talk to in the podcast sector is.
How do you recreate thatfor investigative podcasts?

(39:00):
And people have thoughtabout very, innovative ways.
I think the Girlfriends is an example.
I think that's one where theydid initial limited run and now
they're producing new episodes.
so people are really thinkingabout the format point.
But you are right, the format is asimportant as the content in some respects.
and that is also afunction of the platform.
Sorry, I
sound
like I'm about to give a keynote,
don't I?

Adam (39:19):
And that,
that I
think is where it gets verymuddled with BBC sounds.
'cause if you open your BBC AmpSounds home page, you end up with this
extraordinary hodgepodge of things, whichare, long running podcasts along within
our time, but along with the world thatwon or last night's PM and things, they
all
bundled
in together.

Helen (39:35):
I mentioned in the previous section that, about
heat pumps and wasn't, is there
not
a heat
pump
related to

Adam (39:40):
control?
There is a, this very week a heatpump related control, which kind of
demonstrates some of the difficultiesthat the BBC have with this.
So
this one's
not a BBC podcast.
If you're keeping track of all ofthese, if you're keeping a tally, it's
an independent one, which is calledthe Happy, happy Heat Pump Podcast.
And I wish listeners, you couldsee Andy's little eyes lighting
up

Andy (39:57):
I
have
listened
to
the
Happy

Adam (39:58):
pumps Of course you
have
because you are net zero dad.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
it's gone.
It's over.
Sorry about that.
because, Evan Davis announced on Tuesdaymorning, the BBC worries, it may be
seen as steering into areas of publiccontroversy, which I would argue was
more, areas of public controversy steeringinto, into that particular market.

Helen (40:17):
it was co-hosted with, somebody from the industry, wasn't it?
And the industry wants subsidies for, heatpumps to be installed in people's houses.
And I think that's the blurry bitas far as I see with that one.
But it seems to be everybody I've, heardfrom, not just Andy, actually, there are
other people out in the wild, it turns outI know who are interested in heat pumps.
And it was really informative.
It was just a really usefulbread and butter informative.

(40:37):
what is this

Andy (40:38):
thing
Yeah, it was interested in
yeah, it was like five minutesof time on does this work in a
flat, do they work in the cold?
Like

Adam (40:43):
informing and educating
people
It was,

Andy (40:44):
It was, yeah, so

Adam (40:46):
them and the sort of things that the BBC
maybe
ought to
be
doing.
But

Andy (40:48):
I can see where the difficulty came in because the Cohost was a guy
with the implausible name of Bean
Beland
Amazing.
Yep.
No notes.
He's just terrific.
And he's the head of theHeat Pump Federation.
So naturally they have an interestin propagating knowledge and and
making people aware of heat pumps.
Evan Davis was very clear at the start ofevery episode saying, look, I work for the

(41:08):
BBC, this is not a BBC podcast and we'renot trying to promote anything at all.
So it sounds like the, attitudethat's been taken is that even talking
about these things is promotingthem, unreasonable what we've

Adam (41:19):
up with then is the situation where we've got podcasts out there,
which have been presented by, well-knownBBC names, saying I'm not with the BBC,
we've
got branded podcasts, which are outthere but are made by BBC studios.
So aren't the BBC, even
though they
sound like the
And then we've also got on the BBCA loadof podcasts which aren't made by the
BBC and are nothing to do with the BBC.
But the BBC is piggybackingon the back of them.
So do you see what I mean aboutslightly confusing hodgepodge

(41:42):
and
a
lot
of conflicting
things

Andy (41:43):
going
on
but very well then they contradictthemselves, they contain multitudes.
is

Helen (41:48):
this

Andy (41:49):
do we, need order in the podcasting world?

Helen (41:51):
Is
this something I we set
up
for?
Surely the what is behind this isthe idea that there is a lot of
scrutiny on the BBC and particularlyover net zero and about anything
that's seen as being climate related.

Andy (42:02):
and a lot of the criticism, some of it is always valid, obviously the
BBC is a huge organization that getsplenty wrong, but a lot of it is code
for I would like the BBC to be completely
defunded.

Adam (42:12):
Yeah.

Andy (42:13):
is
the other
thing
that we're
not saying.

Adam (42:15):
But there are also, issues within there about, fair
competition with commercial sector,which came up again this month.
And this is back to radio, which asyou say is still proper linear radio
still really, popular out there.
One of the things stations that was reallypopular out there is the brilliantly named
Boom Radio, which plays old golden oldiesessentially for, for readers of a certain

(42:35):
age.
A bit like It's

Andy (42:37):
accessible on yachts.
As the boom swings across, that'swhen you get the brief period of

Adam (42:41):
That's the boy.
Yeah.
yeah,

Andy (42:42):
The boy.
Yeah.
Good.
Carry on.

Adam (42:45):
boom
Radio.
Yeah, no, it's doing that golden oldiestuff, which you might remember older
listeners Radio Two used to do a lotof before, moving into a slightly
younger demographic with people likeVernon Kay on it, as well as Boom
Radio, which basically has David DiddyHamilton, who knew he was still alive.
Simon Bates, who used to do ourjunior looking at me blankly.
You're too

Helen (43:03):
young,

Andy (43:04):
this is This is like when Helen, this is like when Helen
talks about American members ofthe cabinet, who I'm sure are very
important, but I just have never heard
of.
Oh,

Helen (43:12):
I've never felt so young and millennial.
Tell me more about ourelderly radio presenters.

Adam (43:17):
the
other stories about elderly Radio One
presenters are
much
less
pleasant and none
of them
are
featuring on Boom Radio or anyoneelse these days, I'm afraid.
but there's also, grace Sits Radio, whichis the one that Ken Bruce, famously,
absconded from, Radio two to come presenton both of these massive, success stories.
BBC essentially has lookedat them and said, hang on.
That's quite a good gap in the market.
And proposed launching effectivelyBBC Radio two and a half, which was

(43:39):
gonna be the same sort of, hits fromthe fifties, sixties and seventies.
and aimed at an older audience.
Ofcom, the broadcastingwatch log have stepped in and
said, no, you can't do that.
You, if you neglected this audienceand someone else stepped in, you now
don't get to, to step in and, takethat back away from them, that they've
said That would be unfair Competition.
Interestingly, at the sametime, I'd miss this story.
They, they, let through a couple ofother Radio one extensions, they're

(44:02):
called Radio One Dance and Radio OneAnthems, and Radio Three Unwind, which
is classic chill out music of the,sort of kind that I thought classic FM
was
set up
to
do back in the
day.
But there you go.
The one they didn't let through was anextension of Radio five Sports Extra.
'cause they said that wouldcompete unfairly with, talk sports
specifically in that market.
So there is re it's as well asvarious people with undeclared

(44:24):
commercial interests who arecomplaining about this stuff.
There is also a broadcasting watchdogout there who is, trying to ensure some
kind of level of playing field for it.
yeah, you don't look
as happy
about

Andy (44:32):
that.
No, I just can't.

Adam (44:33):
about heat pumps just

Andy (44:34):
so hard to ensure a level playing field.
I just what a complex
set
of
decisions they
must

Adam (44:39):
face.
it is.
But I will put in a word for the ideaof an everything platform because
I think the most irritating thingin the world, and I think listeners
might sympathize with this, is youcan't bloody find anything these days.
God, I'm
old.
But no,

Andy (44:51):
we get do this
on
Boom radio.

Adam (44:54):
I spend half my life going,
where
can I watch this program?
And you have to Google it in orderto find out whether it's on Netflix

Helen (45:01):
or, may I help you or now
Okay.
There's a web website.
No, there's a websitecalled just watch.com.
Okay.
And you just put in the nameof it and it tells you where a
film or TV program is available.
And like which one's it,where it's free, which
ones it's paying.

Andy (45:15):
right?
No, this
is there anything

Adam (45:16):
If away

Helen (45:16):
this podcast, I've helped you locate

Andy (45:18):
locate your

Helen (45:19):
binge watch.
Just watch.com.

Andy (45:21):
is
too
a
lot
easier

Adam (45:22):
though when there were only
four
buttons
on
the
telly.

Andy (45:24):
We're going to end this right now and just say that one thing that
is available very easily is PrivateEye Magazine, private hyen I co uk.
That's the website you shouldgo to get a subscription.
You won't need all ofthese channels and gadgets.
With a lovely edition of Private Eye.
subscriptions are available,very reasonably priced, the
magazine is out every fortnight.

(45:46):
Thank you for listening to thisshow, which has been, produced as
always by Matt Hill of Rethink Audio.
The only other thing we have to sayis that we are going to be at the
Cambridge Literary Festival thisSaturday, the 26th of April, 2025.
For future listeners, sorry you missed it.
tickets in the room are sold outstreaming tickets to see us, do our thing.

(46:07):
Adam's prepared his
dance.
Helen's gonna do magic tricks.
It's gonna be great.
the three of us and Ian aregonna be there on Saturday.
You can get tickets to watch thestreaming event in the room, at the
Cambridge Literature Festival website.
It's gonna be great fun.
We are accepting a few final questions,for our q and a session, so send
those to [e-mail].

(46:29):
We'd love to hear, a
few
last
questions
before we
do the

Adam (46:31):
approach.
Where
can I watch Passport to
Pimlico for free.

Andy (46:34):
it.
Goodbye.